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The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)

us Offline Lynn LeFey

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The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
on: February 03, 2018, 08:03:18 PM
This tool review is part of a challenge I was issued. What is the best tool I can find for $10, including tax and shipping? If you want to see the other tools in this challenge, here's a link to that thread.
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,75705.0.html

This tool was purchased on ebay, in a lot with another tool for $22.70. Modern versions of the Mil-K knife can be purchased at about $35, and the knife that was with it is worth about $60 new, so as a ratio of the total cost, this tool was about $8.36. I'd call this price highly unusual. I ALMOST won another Camillus Mil-K knife but it climbed to $12.50. Every other Mil-K knife i saw on ebay through an entire month of watching went for prices starting at about $20, averaging more like $35, and a few really good, old Kingston versions climbing a lot higher. Finding one of htese in solid condition for $10 is pretty unlikely, but not impossible. I think I managed to win this because it was only listed as 'A pair of pocket knives'.

Here's a look at our Camillus 1981 Mil-K knife.


The tool weighs 100g (3.5oz), and is made of stainless steel, with nickel silver pins.

In addition to discussing this tool, I will be comparing and contrasting it to a modern 'Marble's' Chinese manufactured copy of the Mil-K knife. Here's a link to the individual review of the Marble's knife.
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,75730.0.html

I can only review the tool as received. And, AS received, it shows signs of wear, but they all seem fairly cosmetic. The flathead driver has scratches, but they're superficial. Both the can opener and flathead have scratches from rubbing against each other. There is some raggedness to the cutting edge of the awl, but nothing major. There are some scratches on the main blade, but the cutting edge has no chips, nicks, or rolling. The outsides scales have a few dings around the perimeter, but nothing serious. The clevis (bail or shackle, if you prefer) is in good condition. There is a very tiny amount of side-to-side blade play on the clevis end of the tool, with the awl and flathead/caplifter. There is no detectable side to side bladeplay on the side with the main blade. Tool retention both in open and closed position for all tools is very strong. Earlier models have a thumbstud on the side of the cap lifter/flathead. This one does not. The tool has a bit of a reputation as a nail-breaker, for the difficulty in extracting tools. I think that this thing was VERY tough to open when new. It's still very stiff, from its strong backsprings. An indent in the side scale makes access to extract the awl fairly easy. The nail nicks in the cap lifter/flathead and the can opener are both readily accessible. The nail nick on the main blade is almost completely obscured by the flathead driver, making extracting the blade tough.

The tool is known by a VERY large number of names. As the Mil-K knife, for the military specification describing it, "Mil-K-818". Or the 'Demo' knife. The 'Demo' in the name has several legends surrounding it, but I think the most accurate is that it was included in a demolitions kit. It is sometimes called the 'Camillus knife'  or 'Camillus 1760', since Camillus produced many (but not all) of them after 1957, and the 1760 was Camillus' model number for it. It's sometimes called the 2205, for it's NATO designation, 5110-00-162-2205 Knife, General Purpose. Sometimes it's called the 'U.S. Pocket Knife', because of the 'U.S.' stamped on the side. And, on occasion, it's called the U.S. Scout Knife. I assume because it is a Soldier/scout/camp style knife. Really, it is called too many things, and in trying to research its origin and information about it, this bad naming convention made it a nightmare.

If you are interested, here is a link to a site where you can download the Mil-K-818D specification, to know the standards to which the knife was tested.
http://everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL-SPECS-MIL-K/MIL-K-818D_19599/

At some point in the review, I will try to hunt down links to other reviews and info about this knife that other forum members have posted.

Review of the functions to begin shortly.


us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
Reply #1 on: February 04, 2018, 07:39:26 AM
The blade.

Or... 'You're not gonna like this'.

This post is pretty severely delayed, for reasons that will become clear through this post.

I start every blade test the same. How is it as received? This would sorta-kinda cut paper, and with extreme effort cut receipt paper. So, I gave it 20 strokes on the ceramic rods, and tried the receipt paper again, and it did okay, with some points of hesitation in the cut.


So, I then take it to cardboard, to see about edge retention, and after only a few strokes, I start getting chewed edges in the cardboard along the cut line.


But I keep cutting, to give it a fair shot. Then take it back to the receipt paper. It won't cut it. AT ALL. With great coaxing, it will BARELY cut regular paper.

I'm not sure what's happening, so I pull out a magnifying glass to look at the edge. I've seen a lot of blades messed up by bad sharpening. Maybe that's it... But... No. It still has the factory grind marks on it. I sharpie mark the edge, and run it over the ceramic rods and... ONE side is sharpening. It has an uneven grind. And it is BAD. In fact, I have only EVER seen one blade ground as uneven as this one, and that was a Frost Cutlery 'Flying Falcon' I got new for $2. An interesting thing to note here is that I actually only knew how to fix the bad grind on this Mil-K knife BECAUSE I had to fix it on the Flying Falcon.

I'm not sure if it was the severity of the bad grind, or the temper of the steel, or a combination, but this thing was EXTRAORDINARILY resistant to sharpening. I feel like I have an ounce of powdered stainless steel on me from working on this smurfing thing.

I had this same problem with the Marble's knock-off version but to a MUCH lesser degree. So... maybe the Marble's knife was just trying to be authentic? :D
Here's a link to the blade test for the Marble's knock-off. https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,75730.msg1628697.html#msg1628697

It took 20 passes through a kitchen sharpener and 20 strokes on ceramic rods to get the Marbles knife in shape. This one took 80 passes through a kitchen sharpener, then half an hour on a lansky stone, 40 more passes through kitchen sharpener, 60 strokes on ceramic rods, and there are still spots near the tip that could use more work. With time taken to examine the edge in excruciating detail under magnifying glass, this took maybe an hour and a half. THAT was the delay. I had to stop testing to fix this thing, and now all the testing I DID is kind of null and void, after having worked on the edge. It's late, I'm tired, I kind of hate this thing right now, and I'm not going to deal with it. I'll get back to testing it tomorrow, when I don't feel so much like just heaving it as far as I can throw it out my back door.

I am sorely tempted to just stop the test, I'm that smurfed off at it.  :rant: Hopefully I'll be in a better mood tomorrow.


es Offline ThePeacent

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Re: The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
Reply #2 on: February 04, 2018, 04:14:42 PM
so much effort put into a cheap tool, Lynn.
 :ahhh
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us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
Reply #3 on: February 04, 2018, 04:56:39 PM
Part two of blade testing.

I spent another 20 minutes on the blade this morning, trying to get the edge better. Seems okay.

Then I went back to the cardboard test. and...

MOTHER... SMURFING... SMURFER!

Three strokes into the cardbaord test, the blade starts dragging through the cardboard again, ripping, instead of cutting. I do another 20 or so cuts, and take it back to thin paper (phonebook paper this time, because I'm all out of receipt paper). Dull as Flurg!

Two things come to mind. First, one of Murphy's Laws: "Remember, your weapon was made by the lowest bidder". Apparently, so was your pocket knife. And two... I used to wonder, seeing pictures of old pocket knives where the blade had been sharpened so often that it was just a nub. Well, NOW I know why anyone would have to sharpen a knife that often. Because they are apparently made of POT METAL!!!  :rant:

I sharpened it again... with equal difficulty. I'm not running the cut test again.

Blade as basic cutting tool: The most marginal pass ever.
Blade for edge retention: FAIL, FAIL, FAIL, FAIL, FAIL, FAIL! SMURF YOU, YOU COMPLETE PIECE OF GARBAGE!!

What I'm about to say is not even slightly exaggerating. This is the worst knife blade I have ever experienced. Ever. Even compared to the $1 Dollar Tree knife, and every cheap SAK-knockoff I've ever had.

On to something that hopefully works, I guess...
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 04:58:52 PM by Lynn LeFey »


us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
Reply #4 on: February 04, 2018, 05:12:01 PM
I thought this was an interesting thing about this knife. Here it is, compared to the cheap Chinese Marble's Camp Knife, when you look at their ends.





The knife on the left has much more precise machining on the ends. It's not as apparent in the photos, but the layers along the spine is also much better made on the knife on the left. However, the formation of the clevis is somewhat better on the knife on the right.

Now, would you like to guess which is the Marble's Camp Knife, and which is the legendary Camillus Mil-K knife?

Correct. The knife on the RIGHT is the authentic Mil-K knife.

Smurf me.  :facepalm:


ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
Reply #5 on: February 04, 2018, 05:31:12 PM
I for one bow to our superior the better chinese manufacturers.  :D
Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!


us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
Reply #6 on: February 04, 2018, 05:37:46 PM
Is there anything POSITIVE I can say about the blade?

Yes.

It is a very STURDY blade. The taper of the blade toward the point along the back spine is very mild for most of the blade, then quickly reducing at the tip. This makes the blade very stiff. It is stiffer than the blade on the 93mm Victorinox Pioneer (equivalent to what would have been the Soldier knife of the same timeframe). Blade retention is somewhat weaker in the Mil-K compared to a (brand new) Pioneer, but that's maybe not a fair comparison, of a knife made in 1981 vs. a brand new (I mean, I bought it 2 weeks ago) Pioneer.

Not exactly a saving grace, but something.



us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
Reply #7 on: February 04, 2018, 08:32:23 PM
Leaving behind the blade testing, shaking off that experience, and coming at this freshly enthused to find something good on this tool...

Let's move on to the flathead driver/Cap lifter.

I've mentioned before, but the retention in closed position is REALLY strong. Nearing to 'nail breaker'. It feels like a fair bit more than the retention strength on a new Victorinox Pioneer in the open position. I think this is the strongest tool retention in the open position I've come across. This gives the tool a very solid feel when using the screwdriver with some effort.

The head of the screwdriver is very well formed.


This is a point where it clearly beats the Marbles knock-off, which had a flathead tip that was overly rounded.

Maybe before going any further, I need to address a rumor about the Mil-K knife. Some people thought that it was called a 'Demo Knife' because it was non-magnetic, and could be used to disarm landmines. Well...


My example is magnetized, and fairly strongly. It will pick up paperclips or screws and the like easily.

Probably best to leave demolition work to the 'anti-explosion pliers'. :D  Previously reviewed here...
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,75224.0.html

One other point. The tool does not sit parallel to the scales of the tool in closed position. It 'bends' slightly to the left. This is intentional. I mention this because I don't want folks to think that a particular test I do bends the tool out of shape. Sorry this isn't the best pic.


Alright, so, how is it as a flathead screwdriver? I put it against the screws I usually use for testing. First, the faceplate of a light switch, then against the larger screws in the hinge of a door.


It slots cleanly into screws, and holds well, without camming out. It feels extremely solid even under fair force. The reach on the tool is very nice.

Against the crusty-paint-can pry test, it was effortlessly successful.


In fact, it was so good at this, that, against my instincts, I tried a more brutal test, sticking it between two 2x10 boards, and testing to see how far I could bend it. When i do this, I don't just keep going until the tool breaks. I have an idea of how far I want to push it. 15-20 degrees, then see if it's permanently deformed, or it springs back.


I had mixed results here. The tool flexed and returned to its original shape. Well done.  :tu:

However, there was a bit of side-to-side blade-play after the test, meaning I probably stretched the pins a bit. This didn't surprise me. It was a bit of a torture test, and I don't tend to do it with tools held together with brass pins.

Overall, this means that the tool handles a LOT more than most pocket knives would as a pry tool. The Marbles knock-off did better, but it has steel pins, not Nickel Silver. For those that don't know, 'Nickel Silver' is a brass alloy.

So, it's a good screw driver, and good light pry tool, but how is it at opening bottles?



This is one of the best cap lifters I've ever seen on a multitool. That's a weird point of praise, but...  :shrug: I guess you take the good where you can find it. The only cap lifter I've seen that was clearly better was the one on the Gerber Dime.

I guess the military had it's priorities. :D

I honestly don't know how the flathead/caplifter could be made better in a tool this size. I actually LIKE that it's magnetized. You could use it to pick up screws that have fallen into small spaces. It is robust, has great retention, great prying ability.

Flathead screwdriver: Pass with distinction
Flathead for light pry duty: Solid Pass
Cap Lifter: Pass with distinction.


us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
Reply #8 on: February 04, 2018, 11:35:45 PM
This is the can opener on the Mil-K. How can I tell?



Because I can READ.

Like with many other things surrounding the Mil-K knife, there are legends concerning WHY the words 'CAN OPENER' are stamped on the can opener. The one that seems to be most prevalent is that the Allies, in WWII, feared that if a soldier was captured with one of these, the enemy would presume some nefarious 'implement of torture' function for this tool, and so they were clearly labeled to prevent this. And that's the MOST reasonable story I heard. A more humorous one was that you had to label them because you were issuing them to the idiots in (fill in the military branch you wanted to make fun of). A bit like the jokes around the 'This side toward enemy' label on the claymore mine.

I wrote this in the review of the Marbles copy of the Mil-K, but I thought it bore repeating.

The can opener... was designed specifically for the Mil-K knife, and the patent held by Imperial. Imperial and Ulster together formed a company called 'Kingston' solely to fill their military knife contracts. The can opener design was known as the 'Safety Can Opener'. I would call it a great leap ahead in can opener design, compared to previous versions. I would go further in saying that it lives on to this day as the basic design of the can opener on most Leatherman tools, and WAS the same basic design as that on the Wenger knives.

This one works fine.

Can Opener: Pass


us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
Reply #9 on: February 05, 2018, 12:06:03 AM
Final implement, the awl.

Unlike essentially every awl on every modern tool, the awl on the Mil-K knife is concave on one side. I wanted to do this test without sharpening the edge of this tool, even with it being a bit ragged-feeling.

I skipped the leather punch test, feeling very confident that it would do it effortlessly, and went straight for the wood boring test. Could it drill a hole through a half-inch thick piece of aged Ash?



Yes. It did so very quickly, too. I would guess that it was pretty close to the same speed I'd see from a Victorinox Awl. Top notch awl.

I... uhh... I COULD stand for it to have a little more retention. I got a little zealous toward the end, and leaned in hard. The awl collapsed, and my left index finger paid the price. Warning, the picture contains a little blood. Not loads, but I know some people are squeamish.

Show content

Sorry the picture is a little blurry, but I was trying to take it fast, so I could get to a sink, and not drip blood all over my carpet.  :rofl:


Ergonomics on this thing are not great. The ends of the tool, as has been shown previously, are not well formed, and they bite into your palms when you press hard on the awl. Still, it got the job done. It DOES require caution. I had two near-miss collapses, and one full collapse resulting in a class-1 boo-boo.


us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
Reply #10 on: February 05, 2018, 04:59:39 AM
The last function of the tool is the Clevis. I'm just going to quote from the Marble's Camp Knife review, since it's the same.

And that really just leaves the Clevis. You can call it a bail or shackle if you want. The Mil-K spec says 'clevis'.
It is solid. I don't know how I feel about it. Sometimes it feels like it's in the way. It WILL fold pretty well clear of any tool, but you have to fold it away, instead of just getting to your tool immediately. If you need a lanyard to ensure that you don't lose a tool, the clevis is a very secure connection point. I understand that it was a great addition to the tool for comms guys in the military who had to string wire. They would throw a line over a branch, using the Mil-K knife as their weight. The closest modern equivalent I can think of is throwing a line while hiking to string up a bear bag. I suppose this could be done with the split ring on most SAKs and SAK-like knives, but none of those seem nearly as sturdy as this clevis.

Now... okay, don't laugh. This brings up a strange possible application for this knife. I have gone on and on (and ON and ON) about just how bad, how utterly stupid it is to consider pocket knives as a self defense tool. Except this one. Not as a blade, but as part of a Kusari-fundo, a weight on a short length of chain (or possibly strong cord). If this knife were on a lanyard, or 2 or so feet of light chain, I would take it 10 times out of 10 over a blade of any reasonable length for self defense. Considering the stoutness of the clevis, I don't think it would break being used in that way.

With that said, there's really just a matter of asking if this is worth it. Do I think it's in the running for best tool at or under $10. No. There. I said it. The Mil-K knife has a long, interesting history. It spanned a service life of something like 60 years. That's an amazing feat. But I'm sure that the quality among the numerous manufacturers of the tool over that time... uhh... 'varied'. I'm sure there are great examples of this tool out there. This isn't one of them. This tool is... bad. IT has some great features, and it is very sturdy, but if you are a 'Knife, Pocket, General Purpose', then your first and most vital function is as a KNIFE, and AS a knife, this thing is pretty much garbage. The funny thing is that everything else worked fine.

If you want to own an interesting bit of American history, then sure, get one. If you want a TOOL to use... then at very least avoid the 1981 Camillus-made version. It's not good.

I would go so far as to say the Marble's Camp Knife is better. It's better crafted, and while it ALSO had a somewhat defective grind on the blade, it wasn't nearly so bad as this one. It can also repeatably be had at the $10 price point. And if you wreck it, you're not destroying anything of any historic value.

If you want a legitimate American Made modern version of this, I found at least one, and possibly two manufacturers.

Colonial Knives makes one. The cheapest I could find it (new) was for $28.95
https://www.jensentools.com/colonial-knife-2205-military-scout-knife/p/479-798

Failing that, you can go directly to the Colonial Knife Corp's site to buy it (for about $35)
https://www.colonialknifecorp.com/products/military-scout-knife-2205

Also, there SEEMS to be another manufacturer of the Mil-K. As far as I can tell, they're not just rebranding the Colonial-made knife, but I haven't confirmed that. There is a $29 version from Guideboat.
http://www.guideboat.com/2205-military-scout-knife.html

The reason I can't tell if it's one manufacturer or two is that the awl are different when comparing the pic on Colonial's web site to the one on Guideboat's, but when i search on-line images, there are pics where the awls are the same, and fairly distinctive. I presume that Colonial makes them, updated it a bit, and didn't change the picture. But I don't know this to be 100% true.

I am not endorsing either. I don't own either, and haven't had them in-hand. They could be utter garbage. I don't know. Or they could be amazing. I'm just putting this here as alternatives to shelling out $35 for a beat-up version of the Camillus knives on ebay. Because I CAN (and just have) tell you what the Camillus knife is like.

Oh... yeah... also... For sale: A GENUINE Camillus 1981 Mil-K 'Demo' knife. $10+S&H. You will almost certainly not be able to find one cheaper. May have some genuine Lynn blood on it.  :whistle:


es Offline ThePeacent

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Re: The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
Reply #11 on: February 05, 2018, 04:15:26 PM
that awl... :oops:

the sacrifices you do for us shall not be forgotten  :rofl: 
our fingers thank you :salute:
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us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
Reply #12 on: February 05, 2018, 09:29:45 PM
For a point of note. I had been trying to remember the word for the strange 'bend' in the blades of this tool. I mean the intentionally manufactured 'bend'. It is called 'Crinking'. I mentioned it most notably with the Flathead driver.


us Offline Higgins617

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Re: The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
Reply #13 on: February 05, 2018, 10:22:14 PM
so..... Excellent 10 dollar bottle opener????
I'm a total legend..... in my own mind- Herley


us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
Reply #14 on: February 05, 2018, 10:35:16 PM
so..... Excellent 10 dollar bottle opener????

Absolutely TOP NOTCH!  :rofl:


us Offline Higgins617

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Re: The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
Reply #15 on: February 06, 2018, 01:17:34 AM
so..... Excellent 10 dollar bottle opener????

Absolutely TOP NOTCH!  :rofl:

Quick change in branding and well be calling it the best multifunction bottle opener money can buy!
I'm a total legend..... in my own mind- Herley


ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
Reply #16 on: February 09, 2018, 12:18:59 AM
I feel your pain on the folded awl- I've been there, but usually with a screwdriver on a SAK, coupled with a tough screw and a moment's inattention.   :ahhh

Then there was the time I was using a PST II to drill a hole into something and the serrated blade folded right into the end of my middle finger.  The look on the doctor's face when I asked him if I'd be able to keep driving with an injured middle finger was priceless, and almost worth the stitches.   :facepalm:

Great review- I have a couple of these knives but almost never do anything with them as they seem more like a bigger,bulkier, heavier, less effective Soldier than anything else.

Def
Leave the dents as they are- let your belongings show their scars as proudly as you do yours.


us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
Reply #17 on: February 13, 2018, 10:42:29 PM
I got a new sharpening system in today, largely because of this knife. I'm not the best sharpener in the world, and that gets worse when the blade needs serious work. This one needed serious work.

So after assembling the new sharpener, I set to work on the Mik-K knife, to see if i could fix the uneven grind.

And in fairly short order, I'd guess half an hour, including learning curve of using the sharpener, I had it looking pretty good to my eye. I gave it the paper cut test and it did fine, then back to corrugated cardboard.


Then back to the paper cut test, both thin receipt paper and phonebook paper, and it would still cut both.



I was VERY aggressive with the coarser stones, to get this edge into shape. Even after the work I'd done before, it still needed a lot more.

However...

Blade: PASS... after a LOT of work.


us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: The Mil-K or 'Demo' knife (Lynn's $10 MT Challenge)
Reply #18 on: February 13, 2018, 10:52:09 PM
I have a couple of these knives but almost never do anything with them as they seem more like a bigger,bulkier, heavier, less effective Soldier than anything else.

I think that would 100% sum up my impressions as well.

Given the money, I would ALWAYS go with a Vic Soldier/Pioneer, but I could not even come close to finding one for $10, so...  :shrug:


 

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