Screwdrivers. Said like the Joker...

[ThundahBeagle]

...in Batman (1989,as played by Jack Nicholson)...

Will somebody please tell me...WHAT kind of a world we live in, when a man goes to Sears for Craftsman tools, and finds them all made in China?

...aaaand scene.

Seriously though. Been stewing on this a week... Went to Sears for some screwdrivers and bought the last 4-pack in the store that was made in USA. The pack behind it was made in China, as were the rest. USA packaging is white with a thick red border. Chinese made packaging is all red background. And by the way, they now prefer you to sign up with their rewards program giving a name, phone #, zip code and email address in case you need to use your warranty. I used to be able to show up with one of their tools and exchange it for another, no questions asked, other than was it being used as a screwdriver or a prybar.

Hit up Home Depot for a new Vice Grips. The real ones. Now also made in China. I left empty handed.

Later that day, grocery shopping. My glass-bottled Coca Cola with sugar instead of high fructose corn syrup? Mexico. I've known this for a long while now, but it hit me again that day.

I'm not against folks from other countries making a living, but it sure seems like over the last 10 years, someone's been fine with my neighbors losing their jobs. Not trying to be harsh, but evenery time I see "made in China" that means that a couple hundred people here have lost their jobs.

Also not saying these things aren't still quality controlled, but really, how much of an American icon of quality is it, when it's being made somewhere else?

Would we submit to the Victorinox Mountaineer being made in Poland or China? Ok, you might say...it's just that one model. Except, next year, it's the Fieldmaster, too. Then the Huntsman. And when you next look around, they all are made elsewhere. They cease to be a testament to the ingenuity and craftsmanship of the people in the country in which they were founded.

If that ever happens with Vic, I will do what I am doing more and more for my regular tools - scour flea markets and Craigslist for the oldies and goodies unless I need it new right then.

At least we still have Channel Lock, Estwing, and Leatherman.

[magentus]

Don't blame the different countries, write to the company and tell them you won't buy their products any more until they are made in the US again. If enough people did this then either the company would change its manufacturing base or go bust.

Witholding your money from them and telling them why you are doing so is the only way they will listen

We shouldn't really get misty eyed about corporations - they exist solely to make money and will do whatever they can to maximise their profit. The product is just the means by which they make their profits. They have no loyalty to their customers and the country they established themselves in - they'll go where the wages and workers rights are suppressed, where unions aren't tolerated.

Victorinox are the only large corporation I know of to buck the trend to move their manufacturing base somewhere cheaper and they still seem to operate with some kind of moral compass.

[Don Pablo]

Yup. As far as these companies know, their customers are fine with their products being made in china, as they keep buying them!

[Vidar]

We shouldn't really get misty eyed about corporations - they exist solely to make money and will do whatever they can to maximise their profit. The product is just the means by which they make their profits. They have no loyalty to their customers and the country they established themselves in - they'll go where the wages and workers rights are suppressed, where unions aren't tolerated.

I think that is a bit too categorical. On one side I will certainly agree that many companies operate like that. On the other hand I also see companies and owners that doesn't solely prioritize the monetary needs of the single stakeholder (the owners). Many companies recognize and aim to balance the needs of all stakeholders involved in their business; owners, employees, customers, end users, suppliers, and the society they all exist in. That isn't easy task of course, and actually making money is kind of a prerequiste to be able to make a sustainable balance at all.

To me there seems to be a divide between large stock listed companies and smaller privately owned businesses. The first are typically owned by masses of distant owners whose only concern typically is how much money they can make during their time of ownership. And worse still, they are often in it for a short term only, so even smurfing in the pants to make it warm seems like a great idea.

Small and privately owned companies will often identify with and connect with the company and products, and also live the same community as their business operate. For many of them being in business is about a lot more and other values than chasing maximum profits. Some genuinely want to be part of building a society where their friends, family and children can thrive. That perspective hardly ever make it to economic textbooks but it is a big drive for many nevertheless.

[magentus]

I agree Vidar - sorry I should have stipulated Big corporations - there are lots of smaller businesses who are steered by ethics and with a view to their workers and wider community and beyond  the short term profit to be made.

 

[Vidar]

I agree Vidar - sorry I should have stipulated Big corporations - there are lots of smaller businesses who are steered by ethics and with a view to their workers and wider community and beyond  the short term profit to be made.

 

No biggie - I just think that all the companies that do care are easy to overlook and forget as almost media and economists tend to look only to the profit maximizing ones. Economists have simplified human behaviour to fit mathematical models and in the process dropped everything but profit maximizing. (It makes for a nice clean theory that can be put in spreadsheets).  Not all of value can be counted, and not everything that can be counted is valueable though.

Anyway, economy is complicated and humans even more so... As for economists I typically find that they and their theories are lousy at making predictions, but very quick to offer explainations in hindsight.

The funny thing is that even if economists were to figure it all out perfectly that very act in itself would force mechanisms to change to where they aren't fully understood anymore. A bit like chasing tails.

[ThundahBeagle]

Hi Vidar,

I do believe Magentus is right about that, and I do not fault companies for this per se. The whole reason to start a business, is, well, business. The baking of the pies or building of houses leads you to the logical end of making a living, and hopefully making more than just a living.

Even big companies are made up of people. Bottom line IS important, though it doesn't mean a company can't be sympathetic. But a company will drop a bad employee for a good one, and a bad supplier for a good one. Or, cheaper ones in both cases. And companies that tend to try and do what we all feel is socially responsible - well, they really only do that to play up that angle if they think there will be more customers as a result. Companies that somehow help strengthen the community only do so, so that they have a community within which to continue to sell their product or service.

Leatherman built its reputation on quality tools. They were only ever outsourced to Japan for a few years. If Tim could somehow double his paycheck by having them made in China of comparable quality, he might do so. What stops him is that he built his company by being proudly made in Oregon. That's part of the allure of the item now. That, and there might be tremendous backlash if suddenly 500 people in town were out of work. For all we know, Leatherman May be seeing subsidies or tax breaks to keep his plant in town. Or, yes, it is possible he personally just feels strongly about the issue and that's part of his business plan...

The checkbook is not altruistic. It's a bunch of numbers that NEED to lean in a certain direction, or the company is gone.

The real lament here is probably that things have been going in a certain direction in this country over the last 10 or 20 years, whereby it is no longer economically feasible for most businesses to remain, other than an HQ, and new product development and design. We see a lot now "designed in USA." Read that as Made In China.

[Vidar]

I think few issues in the world are black or white - most are shades in between. And as for motivations humans are complicated, and our motivations tend to be varied as well.

Of course many start companies out of necessity, and for those monetary income might be the driving force. Many others who start companies have other motivations as well which might be just as important. Consider the statistics - most new businesses fail. Still people continue to leave steady good paychecks and start new companies. Most knowing that most will fail and loose money in the process. I actually think that if money was the only or primary driving force for starting companies we would have a lot fewer started - and certainly a lot less by people who already have other good options.

While I'm certain there are people who cynically just think of the society they live in in terms of playing a customer base, I'm also certain most actually care about the place they and their family live. Wouldn't you? The personal usefulness of money declines quite rapidly once you have enough - there is a limit to how many meals you can eat and how many cars you can sensibly own and drive. Many will rather help build up a society around them than end up needlessly rich and hiding behind high walls in a worn down society. Maybe that is just crazy Scandinavian thinking..?

Now for pure investors the story is different - most of them are in it for the money. Again, not the only reason, but certainly a more prominent one than for those who start companies.

I've known quite a few start-ups and investors over the years. Professional investment funds are all business and rather cynical, but even they tend to think a interesting project is more worthwhile than a comparable one just about money. And those who actually start businesses have all kinds of motivations - some even start non-profits. In some cases starting a company is a necessary step to reach another goal or vision.

I think we should give Tim Leatherman more credit than that. I'm sure he has had many opportunities to outsource which might have made sense from a pure economical viewpoint. Of course it is also an important marketing factor, but that has been true for many who has indeed outsourced anyway.

For many a company doesn't simply exist just to maximize profits for the owners. They also consider the other stakeholders interests as important. From a historical viewpoint you don't have to go very far back to find that the business ideal used to be diverse companies that had many feet to stand on - in part to be steady long term employers through rough times. These days the economic ideal is narrow specialized companies that can be quite exposed to risk - instead of the company and employees having many legs to stand on, the focus has shifted to the stock owners getting to mix their own risk level through a diverse portfolio of one legged companies.

The checkbook is not altruistic. It's a bunch of numbers that NEED to lean in a certain direction, or the company is gone.

The company need to make a profit and keep up with times. That is different than purely maximizing profits for owners at the expense of all other stakeholders. (And often at the expense of long term sustainability as well).

The real lament here is probably that things have been going in a certain direction in this country over the last 10 or 20 years, whereby it is no longer economically feasible for most businesses to remain, other than an HQ, and new product development and design.

Yes, I think there can be some significant cultural differences in play here as well. US companies might think less of other stakeholders than the owners in general.

That some jobs move with times is natural. For me the real question is if those jobs are replaced - and then with better or worse jobs?

[Etherealicer]

We shouldn't really get misty eyed about corporations - they exist solely to make money and will do whatever they can to maximise their profit.

Its not just the companies though... the customers too always want more for less.
Ultimately, that means that the profit margin increases while the end-user prices gets lower, all that at the cost of quality (and/or customer service). I don't necessarily think that is bad though. At one point it creates a market for a new company, that offers quality at a higher price.

[pfrsantos]

Don't blame the different countries, write to the company and tell them you won't buy their products any more until they are made in the US again. If enough people did this then either the company would change its manufacturing base or go bust.

Witholding your money from them and telling them why you are doing so is the only way they will listen

We shouldn't really get misty eyed about corporations - they exist solely to make money and will do whatever they can to maximise their profit. The product is just the means by which they make their profits. They have no loyalty to their customers and the country they established themselves in - they'll go where the wages and workers rights are suppressed, where unions aren't tolerated.

Victorinox are the only large corporation I know of to buck the trend to move their manufacturing base somewhere cheaper and they still seem to operate with some kind of moral compass.

[pfrsantos]

I agree Vidar - sorry I should have stipulated Big corporations - there are lots of smaller businesses who are steered by ethics and with a view to their workers and wider community and beyond  the short term profit to be made.

 

No biggie - I just think that all the companies that do care are easy to overlook and forget as almost media and economists tend to look only to the profit maximizing ones. Economists have simplified human behaviour to fit mathematical models and in the process dropped everything but profit maximizing. (It makes for a nice clean theory that can be put in spreadsheets).  Not all of value can be counted, and not everything that can be counted is valueable though.

Anyway, economy is complicated and humans even more so... As for economists I typically find that they and their theories are lousy at making predictions, but very quick to offer explainations in hindsight.

The funny thing is that even if economists were to figure it all out perfectly that very act in itself would force mechanisms to change to where they aren't fully understood anymore. A bit like chasing tails.

Those small companies remain local and you can "reward" them by choosing their products. Maybe a little more expensive, but it's your way to say you prefer them over foreign products, even if you have to pay a little extra for it.

[pfrsantos]

I think few issues in the world are black or white - most are shades in between. And as for motivations humans are complicated, and our motivations tend to be varied as well.

Of course many start companies out of necessity, and for those monetary income might be the driving force. Many others who start companies have other motivations as well which might be just as important. Consider the statistics - most new businesses fail. Still people continue to leave steady good paychecks and start new companies. Most knowing that most will fail and loose money in the process. I actually think that if money was the only or primary driving force for starting companies we would have a lot fewer started - and certainly a lot less by people who already have other good options.

While I'm certain there are people who cynically just think of the society they live in in terms of playing a customer base, I'm also certain most actually care about the place they and their family live. Wouldn't you? The personal usefulness of money declines quite rapidly once you have enough - there is a limit to how many meals you can eat and how many cars you can sensibly own and drive. Many will rather help build up a society around them than end up needlessly rich and hiding behind high walls in a worn down society. Maybe that is just crazy Scandinavian thinking..?

(...)

I'd say yes, unfortunatelly. I've seen cases in my country where people earning millions (yup, it's not a typo...) still scheme and plot and cheat to gain even more. Makes no sense for me but I see it every day...

 

[Vidar]

I'd say yes, unfortunatelly. I've seen cases in my country where people earning millions (yup, it's not a typo...) still scheme and plot and cheat to gain even more. Makes no sense for me but I see it every day...

 

There are certainly cases, including here. But going from cases to a sweeping everyone is like that is quite a big step. There are cases in pretty much anything human without those cases being the rule. They do tend to get the most attention though.

To me the distance from actual people seems to be a factor here. For those who live among, know and meet with the connected people every day they will be thinking more in terms of the consequences for all involved. For distant owners it is much easier to just think in terms of numbers.

I don't think many would say that nurses, teachers or firemen are only it for the money? Or that they only do a good job to make that money? People have all kinds of motivations. Money is only one, but for some it does seem to be everything. I guess me or them are fairly clueless overall - I hope it is them.

[ThundahBeagle]

Yup. As far as these companies know, their customers are fine with their products being made in china, as they keep buying them!

Hi Pabs,

I just finished sending an email to the folks over at Craftsman. While I'm happy with my screwdrivers so far, I'm not happy that any more new ones will be Chinese made. I thanked Craftsman for making me go to more flea markets, and let them know I no longer have a need to visit their stores.

Checked on the Irwin website, and if the reviews I've read are being seen by the brass, the answer is no. People are not happy with the lack of quality in tools they make over the last several years. And they are saying so in the comments section. Quality is down. That's the main issue. Vice -grips twisting and flexing instead of staying put. Y-yikes

[Don Pablo]

 
Still, [the customers] keep buying them! 

[Grant Lamontagne]

Still, [the customers] keep buying them! 

That's the power of branding, and the main reason why crap companies like Taylor keep snapping up the rights to things like Smith & Wesson and Schrade.   

Def