Leatherman Quality Control

[ElSteverino]

I'm glad I found this thread 

I strongly believe there should be a proportionate relationship between cost and quality.
I also believe QC should be especially important to a manufacturer when ramping production of a new SKU.

If I bought a €20 Chinese Multitool from the local market, my QC expectations would be set low accordingly.
But in my case, I chose a tool from the market leader (Charge Plus) yet there appeared to be no meaningful QC check before it left production (difficult to deploy main blade, inner tools flapping around / no loctite)
It had occurred to me to simply return the Charge to the vendor and buy a SwissTool instead, but I prefer the design and toolset of the Charge.
I want to give LM the chance to regain my confidence as a customer, so I've returned it today for rework

I'll give an example, a wife buys a Wave as a gift for her husband's birthday, both of them have never owned or even held a Multitool.  At the birthday party, the presents are opened and the husband is happy with his new shiny toy, until he tries to open the inside tools only to find that they're stuck inside the handle, or he opens the pliers and two inside tools fall out the handle by themselves.  For you and me that would be an easy fix, but for someone who is new with multitools, this must be a bummer ...

Amen. I could buy some custom wrenches (if loki-moblie was still supplying them) and add a few dabs of loctite at my own expense to fix the issues, but why should I have to?
Just because we're fans of a brand, we shouldn't have to self-remedy poor QC on their products.

I'm still a big fan of Leatherman, and I'll keep buying their tools.  But I will try to inspect them first, which means buying them at a local shop, which means paying full retail price  .  I just wish they would get back the fit and finish they had 10 years ago, since that's what I expect from a Leatherman tool, great fit and finish like on my Original Supertool, PST, or first generation Wave ...

Great point - I bought online without hesitation, as I expected the same quality as the PST I bought 15 years ago (bullet-proof but sadly not loss-proof)

So just because a few people complaint on a forum doesn't mean that they have QC problems

Totally agree - would be great to hear from any forum members with a LM 'plus' who don't have these QC issues

They set a high standard for themselves in the past, and they have a reputation to uphold.  What would be worse, that in 10 years from now, we would ramble about loose tools on a new Leatherman, or that we wouldn't ramble about the loose tools on a new Leatherman anymore ... 

Who knows, maybe another vendor will step-up and steal the crown 

[in_sympathy]

Buy a safety torch driver   

Lol, security torx, haha

[Aloha]

@ TG24, excellent post.  Very well said my friend. 

Just because we ( MTO members ) can resolve issues, why should we?  When we were told a Leatherman was THE tools to get by whomever.  When we get ours and it has issues.  Such a let down.  Can you imagine what the first time MT owner feel when his/her MT is flawed or has to ask "Is this normal?".

Leatherman please get it together.  Please.   

[McStitchy]

I also am losing confidence in newer generation Leatherman Tools as they're the ones that give me constant trouble.

I've already switched to a different mindset fixing what's possible just by myself. This includes re-peening scissor pivots, filling of or even bending areas of miss fit (handle housing etc.).

However, plier problems with my new gen. Wave, Surge and Rebar had me forced to use the warranty services twice within last year.

For example...
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,75840.msg1634077.html#msg1634077

The returns from the Warranty service seem fine.
Took 2 weeks from Ireland to Whitbys and back.

They're brilliant tools when they're right, but I'm finding myself browsing other brands lately.
Actually made me finding back my love for SAKs.

Inconsistency in Quality Control definitively 

[aikon2014]

I got two new Rebars today, exactly one week after I went to the post office and posted my broken ones. One thing that I never had any problems with is the warranty, which they in some way make sure that their national dealers in other countries follow, wince I'm in Sweden.

To me it's easily worth the payoff, I rather have a little less on QC with rock solid warranty than the other way around. We are all humans and we can make mistakes, but if you rectify them, you are totally cool in my book.

[Top-Gear-24]

I got two new Rebars today, exactly one week after I went to the post office and posted my broken ones. One thing that I never had any problems with is the warranty, which they in some way make sure that their national dealers in other countries follow, wince I'm in Sweden.

To me it's easily worth the payoff, I rather have a little less on QC with rock solid warranty than the other way around. We are all humans and we can make mistakes, but if you rectify them, you are totally cool in my book.

Too bad that great warranty isn't followed by all national dealers ... in which case you're just stuck with poor QC  .

Anyway, I'm happy for you that you got those new Rebars  (and quite fast as well, one week  ).

[dks]

Aren't LMs made by machines too?  I see lately the idea/notion that swisstools are made by machines, so they have better quality, than the "hand madeish " ?? LM  ? 
I saw this notion in a few posts lately, but as far as i know they are both machine made.  The swisstools are better polished but is this a design feature or a product of better machinery? I assumed that it was a design feature and LM can polish anything they like too.

Are the machines used in the US lesser or less than the ones in Switzerland?

[Mechanickal]

According to "how it's made"s video, even the beveled edge on the pliers heads is ground by a machine.
A robotic arm holds the pliers while they move it across a belt grinder.

[kaput]

I would assume the machined pieces are machined by a machine. But the assembly, that's most likely by a person...

[aikon2014]

What really baffles me though is how they can get the plier resistance so different? The pivot should be smashed down by machine, and shouldn't that machine do it with equal force according to the headdesign each and every time?

[hiraethus]

Because the contact surfaces aren't machined correctly, or the rivet is the wrong length (or diameter), or the jig is wonky, or the press is faulty, or the operators aren't placing the parts correctly, or there's corrosion on the pliers head, or they're not being cleaned properly, or ...

These are reasonably complicated assemblies, with lots of steps and operations that go into making them - and there's plenty of places where it can go wrong.  We know the design is good, because they can be made well - but not every time, and some of the ones that aren't good slip through QC.  Placing the blame on the 'quality control' isn't entirely fair though - the whole process from design through manufacture to assembly to quality needs to be done properly.

[aikon2014]

Because the contact surfaces aren't machined correctly, or the rivet is the wrong length (or diameter), or the jig is wonky, or the press is faulty, or the operators aren't placing the parts correctly, or there's corrosion on the pliers head, or they're not being cleaned properly, or ...

These are reasonably complicated assemblies, with lots of steps and operations that go into making them - and there's plenty of places where it can go wrong.  We know the design is good, because they can be made well - but not every time, and some of the ones that aren't good slip through QC.  Placing the blame on the 'quality control' isn't entirely fair though - the whole process from design through manufacture to assembly to quality needs to be done properly.

Maybe it's just me, but if I made things I would be sleepless and crazy OCD about the lowest grade things leaving the factory being about the best quality that is going out now. But hey, maybe that's just me.

[hiraethus]

But if your team leader doesn't care, or you've got an interim line manager who's busy doing something else, or only get paid $7.25/hour why should you bust a gut?

[aikon2014]

But if your team leader doesn't care, or you've got an interim line manager who's busy doing something else, or only get paid $7.25/hour why should you bust a gut?

Well, because I wouldn't want to stand behind a product that isn't as close to perfect as I can make it. But I understand what you are saying. But that is ofcourse only my opinion.

[dks]

at $7.25 an hour the product should be pretty good

[Don Pablo]

at $7.25 an hour the product should be pretty good

Does that number include taxes? 

[dks]

that comes down to about $1400 -1500 a month  - not a low wage in most countries, for what is basically a non demanding job with little qualifications needed

[Poncho65]

that comes down to about $1400 -1500 a month  - not a low wage in most countries, for what is basically a non demanding job with little qualifications needed

But it will put you well below the poverty line here unfortunately That is why many who make that have a spouse with a job and perhaps another job themself Surely they make more than that per hour though

Not saying that should have anything to do with QC but I am sure quota has a great deal to do with that

[SteveC]

I think your math is a bit off dks

7.25 x 40 hour workweek is less than  $1,200 a month

[dks]

It depends on how many days you work. I did say approximate.

So, if they make $7.50 it will be fine?


I always wonder with everything being cheap in the US (food, cars, petrol, multitools, electronics, land, houses), apart form health insurance apparently, why would people feel poor making $1500 per month. (Assuming that they do not live in e.g. NY)

The costs in many countries are more, than in the US (e.g. Europe, especially eastern Europe) and people manage to live decently with wages around half that.

[hiraethus]

I have no idea how much Leatherman actually pays their workers.  $7.25 is the US minimum wage.  To some it might look like that's a good wage, but I imagine that it doesn't go far in the US.

What I'm trying to get at is that it's not just 'quality control' that's the likely cause of the poor(er) quality product that seems to be coming out of Leatherman.

[dks]

They need QA, not QC

[gerleatherberman]

dks,
It isn't about numbers. It is income to expense issue. Lets say I make $1500/month. Uncle Sam and SS gets $200-$300 of that. My rent/house payment is $600 in a crumby neighborhood. My car payment for a old beat up car is $150/month. My gas to work and back ends up being $75/month. My car insurance is $75/month. My health insurance is $100/month. I eat crappy food for $100/month.
That leaves $100-$200 AT BEST left over each month.
Oh. My apologies. That went to the internet company $50/month, electric bill ($100/month), gas bill ($50/month), and water bill ($50/month).
Oops. I'm drowning in debt.
That doesn't even include having any family, unexpected medical co-pays (yes. We pay for med visits and insurance), sick days, etc, etc.
My numbers here were basically the least possible you can spend here to live on your own. Tha $1500/month is no good.
And did I mention, at least in my state, I pay sales tax on everything (including food).
$2000/month is pretty low income in 'non-expensive' areas in the US.

[kaput]

[Top-Gear-24]

Will do  .

...

And also, all the happy owners don't complaint or tend to make their voice heard, they just enjoy and use their tool/tools. So just because a few people complaint on a forum doesn't mean that they have QC problems

Totally agree - would be great to hear from any forum members with a LM 'plus' who don't have these QC issues
...

*cough*   

I must say that his one looks like a Leatherman from 15 years ago.  Not one thing wrong with it (okay, there was one thing, one of the screws from the replaceable wire cutters wasn't screwed in deep enough, and it touched the handles when closing the tool, but this was fixed in two seconds and with two twists of the wrist  ).

But the rest of the tool feels just perfect, nothing rubbing, nothing too loose or too tight, handles perfectly aligned (the tool lies perfectly flat on the table, not like most Spirits  ). And every part of the tool, inside and outside feels just perfect.  This Wave + is possibly the Leatherman with the best fit and finish since, dare I say ... My original Supertool  . 

Okay, my Charges (date codes 0808), my previous Wave (date code 0111) and the two 25th Anniversary Waves (date codes 0408) I recently bought also had great fit and finish, maybe the Wave/Charge platform is just Leatherman's A-game.  I must say, all of my previous Wave/Charge tools had the pliers rubbing against the handles while closing the tool, scratching up the plier head along the way, the new Wave + (at least the one I own  ) does not seem to have this "problem".  This is not a big thing, since it's a tool and pliers are bound to get scratched up during use, but still, I hope this means that Leatherman have stepped up their game, and that their QC issues have been dealt with ...  If not, I guess I should just be happy that I was one of the lucky ones this time ...   

To read the complete topic, click here.

[captain spaulding]

$1,500 a month is nothing around here. I moved out of a higher cost of living neighborhood to a lower cost of living area. Still can’t make it on $1,500 a month. Even in my current location rent for a 1 bedroom apartment is $1,000 a month or higher. This is in a less than desireable part of town. Unless you have a spouse that also works and do not have any kids you may just barely get by. Now if you have kids or do not have a partner pulling in a second income your royaly smurfed. It is very common around here for people to have a spouse that also works as well as one, if not both of them having a second, part time job just to survive and feed themselves and their children.

[dks]

dks,
It isn't about numbers. It is income to expense issue. Lets say I make $1500/month. Uncle Sam and SS gets $200-$300 of that. My rent/house payment is $600 in a crumby neighborhood. My car payment for a old beat up car is $150/month. My gas to work and back ends up being $75/month. My car insurance is $75/month. My health insurance is $100/month. I eat crappy food for $100/month.
That leaves $100-$200 AT BEST left over each month.
Oh. My apologies. That went to the internet company $50/month, electric bill ($100/month), gas bill ($50/month), and water bill ($50/month).
Oops. I'm drowning in debt.
That doesn't even include having any family, unexpected medical co-pays (yes. We pay for med visits and insurance), sick days, etc, etc.
My numbers here were basically the least possible you can spend here to live on your own. Tha $1500/month is no good.
And did I mention, at least in my state, I pay sales tax on everything (including food).
$2000/month is pretty low income in 'non-expensive' areas in the US.

$1,500 a month is nothing around here. I moved out of a higher cost of living neighborhood to a lower cost of living area. Still can’t make it on $1,500 a month. Even in my current location rent for a 1 bedroom apartment is $1,000 a month or higher. This is in a less than desireable part of town. Unless you have a spouse that also works and do not have any kids you may just barely get by. Now if you have kids or do not have a partner pulling in a second income your royaly smurfed. It is very common around here for people to have a spouse that also works as well as one, if not both of them having a second, part time job just to survive and feed themselves and their children.

At least the food is cheap... 

[AimlessWanderer]

They need QA, not QC

Agreed. Relying on having someone to intercept problems before they leave the door is not enough. There should be procedures for ensuring the best possible standard throughout the processes, along with in-stage inspections so that any non-conformances are identified and corrected before they reach final inspection.

Rates of pay are somewhat of an irrelevant/separate issue to quality management.

While I've had my gripes about many of LM's design attributes, they do tend to have fairly sound mechanical knowledge, and often tend to have a stronger product design than for example many Gerber offerings. When Gerber do a bad tool, it's generally due to poor design, rather than failings in realising that design through the production stages. They make good tools well, and bad tools well too. For example, the weak backstop on the Octane blade, or the hit-and-miss lock up on the Flik's ratchet mechanism, were both design failings, not manufacturing ones. On the whole, I've found less production defects on Gerbers than LMs, and more design failings on Gerbers.

In my experience, the only company that produces more quality issues, purely in terms of production standards, is SOG. One manufactures "at home", and the other contacts everything out. This reinforces the stance that it does not matter where a product is made, the management either has control of it's design and manufacturing standards, or sloppily made products get out in the marketplace, and your reputation is at risk.

[Mechanickal]

I have to agree with Al here.

Paygrade has NOTHING to do with quality.
Even IF the employees at LM are payed minimum wage, you can't go expect to get a better pay before you start doing your job properly.
That's a downward spiral.

"- I don't get payed enough so I'm not doing my job properly. I want a raise before I'll give it 100%...."
Wtf?


My gf works at a retirement home.
She takes care of people with dementia.
She get's €1300 a month while working evenings, weekends and hollidays.

So what I'm reading here sugests that she should stop washing and feeding those people?
She'll need a raise before she will take care of them?

She does it because of her love for other people, love for her job.
There is NO excuse in slacking because you think you're underpayed.
You signed your contract before you began.
NO excuse!

[Top-Gear-24]

I have to agree with Al here.

Paygrade has NOTHING to do with quality.
Even IF the employees at LM are payed minimum wage, you can't go expect to get a better pay before you start doing your job properly.
That's a downward spiral.

"- I don't get payed enough so I'm not doing my job properly. I want a raise before I'll give it 100%...."
Wtf?


My gf works at a retirement home.
She takes care of people with dementia.
She get's €1300 a month while working evenings, weekends and hollidays.

So what I'm reading here sugests that she should stop washing and feeding those people?
She'll need a raise before she will take care of them?

She does it because of her love for other people, love for her job.
There is NO excuse in slacking because you think you're underpayed.
You signed your contract before you began.
NO excuse!

Nobody's saying that Nick, she should still keep washing and feeding them, but doing it really half assed ...

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P.S.: My wife also works in a retirement home that speSmurfpillses in people with dementia (and me, I work logistics in a hospital), so I truly get what you're saying about the pay vs work/shifts/weekends/holidays ...