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Lynn's First SAK Mod Build

us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
on: March 28, 2018, 02:28:22 AM
Okay.

So...

I have bushings I got months ago from Syph. I have pin stock from 50ft-trad. I have three donor 91mm SAKs.

Now I just need some guts. And a drill. And a couple metal punches. And a hammer, and workbench, and...

Anyway. I've popped the scales from the donors, and drilled out the pins so far. All the bushings on the sides I drilled out are ruined, which I expected. 50ft-trad recommended I wrap the knives in tape before removing the pins to keep parts from flying, so I did.

The pins are still in them, but not held in by bushings. I'll tear them apart tomorrow.



The donors are the 1970ish Huntman, the early-mid 70's Motorist special, and a newer huntsman for the blade layer (which was trashed on the other two). Not gonna lie, I'm more than a little intimidated on this. I already broke a drill bit and dented one of the aluminum spacers. (sigh) This could turn out really bad. Or... great. It COULD turn out GREAT! :D
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 02:30:04 AM by Lynn LeFey »


us Offline El Corkscrew

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #1 on: March 28, 2018, 02:32:22 AM
 :popcorn:
“All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure.” - Mark Twain


no Offline Toppskarven .

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #2 on: March 28, 2018, 07:57:48 AM
 :popcorn: x2 What will the end result be?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 08:42:48 AM by Toppskarven . »
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00 Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #3 on: March 28, 2018, 08:34:56 AM
:popcorn: x3.
 :tu:
Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

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nz Offline zoidberg

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #4 on: March 28, 2018, 11:12:59 AM
You'll be all right Lynn.
In no time you'll be recognizing the springs and what not.
Also I think you need to keep the stamped liners with the thinner blade if you're mixing the gens.


wales Offline magentus

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #5 on: March 28, 2018, 07:19:31 PM
Good job Lynn. 70% of modding is the courage to start it in the first place and there's a definite learning curve.

Can't wait to see the end result  :cheers:
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gb Offline Wspeed

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #6 on: March 28, 2018, 07:27:55 PM
Look forward on your progress with modding  :popcorn:
fail to prepare prepare to fail


us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #7 on: March 28, 2018, 07:47:40 PM
Thanks all.

I THINK the end result is going to be a Master Craftsman.

Not anything terribly exciting from this morning's work. I tore down the two Huntsmans.

The older one...


The newer one...


Four of the 5 liners on the older Huntsman are broken. Not only broken, but extraordinarily brittle. I broke one while taking the tool apart. I don't know what the deal is. However, the stainless steel parts seem mostly in good (not corroded) condition.

The donor Huntsman, the newer one, is in good shape.

I still have to take the Automobile Special apart. I found out this morning that I hadn't drilled out one of the pins sufficiently. It's the small one with no bushings.

I have a set of hardened steel punches I got to do some work on firearms, and those helped immensely. I took the tools out into the garage, and used a center punch to put a starting guide mark on the pins. For the most part, this kept the drill bit in place while i drilled the pins out. When I messed up, either from putting the mark on the pin off center, or the bit wandering, things rapidly got nasty. I'm kind of surprised I didn't screw up worse than I did. Once the pins were drilled out, I used another punch to drive them out, slightly. Enough to be sure they'd move. BUT... I forgot to check one, and have to go back out in the garage, when I get a moment.

After I've gotten these things apart, there is going to be a LOT of part cleaning/polishing to do before assembly, so this isn't getting completed today.

I have an idea for peening, and want to throw it out there to see if it sounds reasonable. What i think I'm going to do on the first peens is the clamp the pin stock between two pieces of wood, then put an old spacer (probably one already broken) on top of the wood, then an old bushing. Then, peen the head into shape, and file flat. The wood 'should' hold the pin from slipping down. The old spacer is just there to support the bushing, and the bushing acts as the form into which the head is peened. If I break the bushing, meh. Get another used one. This should end with a pin head that is peened to the shape of the concave portion of the bushing. If anyone sees anything ludicrously wrong with this, please let me know. I'm really kind of winging it here. The pin in the pic below is not shown actually against the bushing, which is where it would be when shaping. Imagine this is after forming, and the pin has been raised.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 07:49:48 PM by Lynn LeFey »


00 Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #8 on: March 28, 2018, 08:21:50 PM
Interesting idea... go for it and see what happens!  :D
The suggested method is to put the SAK together with the unpeened pins, THEN file down to size and peen, so that the head sits nicely in the brushing.
Why not try both ways?
Here’s an informative quote about assembling and peening from tattoosteve:
I’ll interject some wisdom. The pins are surely bent. You need some sort of jig for assembly. If you can’t make one use a stack of liners taped together. The pins need to be longer than the finished knife.
The springs are also slightly wider than the tools so they will work.
Here’s my advice.
Hard to explain but I’ll try.
Put pins in jig first.
Outer liner first, then the tool spring, followed by the tools but don’t force them in just yet. Do the non corkscrew or backside philips layer last not this layer. One side of the tools will go in and one side won’t. That’s what you need in order for this to work.
Add a liner and push it down tight as you can. Then use and small pin punch and load the other tool. This will support the pins as you assemble.
After all is together all the tools should still be in the open position. Hold it tight or tape the knife up so it don’t blow apart, not fun if it does.
Then pin the outer pins first, then one with the tools. Don’t hammer them closed just yet, just enough to hold the knife together for now
Next donthe center pivot pin. Then the backside tool pin. This should hold the knife together. Now you can check to see if the tools work correctly and that the pins aren’t bent. Don’t let them snap shut as they can damage the liners
After that’s done and everything looks good. Start pinning it tools side first. They should be very slightly loose. That’s normal. Then do the backside tool pin.
After that the middle pin. This is the tricky one. It’s only purpose is to help support the springs. It should be tight enough to barley spin. Then check snap on each tool separately one at a time. They should all fall correctly in place.
That should correct any issues you have. Hope this all makes sense and is helpful.


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us Offline cody6268

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #9 on: March 28, 2018, 09:06:20 PM
What's with the liners on those older SAKs? It seems to be a major issue with SAKs from the '50s and '60s. I had a late 1950s Ranger which all of them were cracked. After about two weeks carry, I noticed a further crack had developed on the back liner closer to the corkscrew pivot.


00 Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #10 on: March 28, 2018, 09:56:44 PM
It’s either what happens to the aluminium in old liners when not taken care of, or bad aluminium?  :think:
Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

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us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #11 on: March 28, 2018, 10:24:37 PM
I think in the case of mine, it was certainly that the knife had spent some (probably fairly long) amount of time in water.

I think that ate the Aluminum due to Galvanic Corrosion (sometimes called 'electrolysis', incorrectly)
This happens when two different metals touch each other under water that is an electrolyte, like salt water, but will even happen (more slowly) in brackish and fresh water.

Here's the kicker. If you want to prevent corrosion on metals around brackish water, Aluminum is your best material to make an Anode out of. The Anode is a piece of sacrificial metal used to take the corrosion, to prevent it on another metal object.

I remember watching a show, maybe an episode of 'Dirty Jobs', where the folks had to crawl down into the steel pylon of a bridge or pier and replace all the zinc anodes. Somewhere in the back of my brain, it got stored that mixing metals in an underwater environment was a 'bad thing', at least for one of those metals. And when pulling the knife apart, I wouldn't have thought about it, except the aluminum was BRITTLE, which I found very very strange.

My six seconds of exhaustive research came up with this...
https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Preventing-Galvanic-Corrosion

Oh... and it wouldn't help to replace the aluminum liners with brass, because then the stainless steel would be less noble than the brass, and the corrosion would most likely affect the stainless steel. So...  :think:

Some of this is my speculation as to what happened to my knife, but I think I'm on the right track.


gb Offline Sparky415

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #12 on: March 28, 2018, 11:34:45 PM
Hi Lynn,
I have found it usefull when peening to put little 'shims' between one of the layers
This gives you a little room to play with without over tightening
You can use bits of tin can for shims  :salute:

But the clever SAK modders on here might have better advice  :cheers:
 
 :popcorn:
Everything’s adjustable


us Offline Poncho65

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #13 on: March 29, 2018, 02:31:35 AM
Great read so far :tu: Can't wait to see what you get done next :like: Good luck and try not to feel overwhelmed as it really isn't that overly complicated of a task :salute: Once you get going it is a lot easier than one would first think :cheers:


us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #14 on: March 29, 2018, 03:27:23 AM
So, a bit more progress...

First, what will probably come as a shock to no one, I ended up cutting myself on the sharp end of a cut pin...



While taking the Automobile Special apart. Here it is, though, the last of the three knives to come apart for the build.


And the new bushings and pins just waiting for me to clean parts up and assemble...


Thanks again to Syph007 for the bushings, and 50ft-trad for the pin stock.  :salute:


no Offline Vidar

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #15 on: March 29, 2018, 09:51:19 AM
This is interesting to follow.  :tu:

Oh... and it wouldn't help to replace the aluminum liners with brass, because then the stainless steel would be less noble than the brass, and the corrosion would most likely affect the stainless steel. So...  :think:

Brass contains significant amounts of zinc, so chances are that the zinc in the brass would be eaten away first. Hence the general rule to avoid using brass submerged in seawater. (As opposed to some bronzes which are very good for just that).

With galvanic corrosion the relative surface sizes of the metals matter a lot too in practical terms. So you can for instance use stainless steel nuts and bolts to hold together aluminium constructions, but the other way around would be bad.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 09:55:29 AM by Vidar »
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wales Offline hiraethus

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #16 on: March 29, 2018, 11:46:07 AM
But the clever SAK modders on here might have better advice  :cheers:

Dunno about clever, but my advice would be to go slowly with a light touch and check often.  I've never felt that shims are necessary.


wales Offline hiraethus

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #17 on: March 29, 2018, 11:48:54 AM
This is interesting to follow.  :tu:

Oh... and it wouldn't help to replace the aluminum liners with brass, because then the stainless steel would be less noble than the brass, and the corrosion would most likely affect the stainless steel. So...  :think:

Brass contains significant amounts of zinc, so chances are that the zinc in the brass would be eaten away first. Hence the general rule to avoid using brass submerged in seawater. (As opposed to some bronzes which are very good for just that).

With galvanic corrosion the relative surface sizes of the metals matter a lot too in practical terms. So you can for instance use stainless steel nuts and bolts to hold together aluminium constructions, but the other way around would be bad.

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion#Galvanic_series, brass has a lower anodic index than aluminium so the aluminium will corrode more/faster.  I believe that the liners on older knives were not anodised, which would mean they're more susceptible to corrosion too.  There may also be differences in the composition of the alloy.


wales Offline hiraethus

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #18 on: March 29, 2018, 11:57:46 AM
I have an idea for peening, and want to throw it out there to see if it sounds reasonable. What i think I'm going to do on the first peens is the clamp the pin stock between two pieces of wood, then put an old spacer (probably one already broken) on top of the wood, then an old bushing. Then, peen the head into shape, and file flat. The wood 'should' hold the pin from slipping down. The old spacer is just there to support the bushing, and the bushing acts as the form into which the head is peened. If I break the bushing, meh. Get another used one. This should end with a pin head that is peened to the shape of the concave portion of the bushing. If anyone sees anything ludicrously wrong with this, please let me know. I'm really kind of winging it here. The pin in the pic below is not shown actually against the bushing, which is where it would be when shaping. Imagine this is after forming, and the pin has been raised.



Just peen the pins into the bushes on the assembled knife.  Build the knife onto over-length pins, then when it's fully assembled, position the bushes over the pins.  You can use a spare liner to keep the bits in position while you work.  Trim the pins with snips/pliers, then file flat leaving yourself 1-1.5mm of exposed pin on each side above the top surface of the bushing.  Hammer away from there.


no Offline Vidar

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #19 on: March 29, 2018, 12:27:43 PM
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion#Galvanic_series, brass has a lower anodic index than aluminium so the aluminium will corrode more/faster.  I believe that the liners on older knives were not anodised, which would mean they're more susceptible to corrosion too.  There may also be differences in the composition of the alloy.

The question then is what brass? There are so many alloys called brass. What they have in common is that they contain copper and zinc. And zinc is the most common material for sacrificial anode use. (Just think of everything that is galvanized).

Brass is suspectible to dezincification where the zinc is selectively eaten away. There are differences between brasses - some additives help reduce the issue, and brasses with little zinc also have less issues. But unless one knows the exact brass alloy used, and the environment it will be used in, it might be safer to just use some better alternative.

Not many will store their SAKs in salt water anyway :)



"Simple is hard"
"Hard is hard too"
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gb Offline Wspeed

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #20 on: March 29, 2018, 12:32:33 PM
Very interesting reading I might learn
how to do this properly with all these handy tips :like: :tu:
fail to prepare prepare to fail


00 Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #21 on: March 29, 2018, 01:01:31 PM
This is interesting to follow.  :tu:

Oh... and it wouldn't help to replace the aluminum liners with brass, because then the stainless steel would be less noble than the brass, and the corrosion would most likely affect the stainless steel. So...  :think:

Brass contains significant amounts of zinc, so chances are that the zinc in the brass would be eaten away first. Hence the general rule to avoid using brass submerged in seawater. (As opposed to some bronzes which are very good for just that).

With galvanic corrosion the relative surface sizes of the metals matter a lot too in practical terms. So you can for instance use stainless steel nuts and bolts to hold together aluminium constructions, but the other way around would be bad.

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion#Galvanic_series, brass has a lower anodic index than aluminium so the aluminium will corrode more/faster.  I believe that the liners on older knives were not anodised, which would mean they're more susceptible to corrosion too.  There may also be differences in the composition of the alloy.
I thought that the only anodised liner is the one beside the corkscrew/backside philips (but not the one on the scale side).  :think:
Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

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wales Offline hiraethus

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #22 on: March 29, 2018, 01:30:52 PM
 :shrug:


00 Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #23 on: March 29, 2018, 02:03:44 PM
Found info regarding this business of anodizing liners:
This is my first real post here on the MTO forum. I collect SAKs and I'm very interested in their evolution. I know this place for quite a few years and I learned a lot from reading posts here. Although I usually prefer to just read and learn, this thread touches something that I researched a little bit (by observing the SAKs in my collection), so it seems appropriate to point out what I know.

While we are on the subject, I used to think that none of the liners on a standard cellidor were anodized, but the liner adjacent to the blade for sure is clear anodized (you can tell with conductivity test).  No other liners are, but why did they do just that one liner and still do it currently?  All current cellidor blade liners are indeed alox.

According to my observations, it's indeed true that recent (since some point in the late 1980's) regular-line 91mm Victorinox SAKs have exactly one anodized liner as Syph007 describes. It's the internal liner of the blades layer (namely, the central liner on a Spartan). The full picture, however, is more complex and is part the SAK evolution.

Victorinox used to anodize all aluminum liners of their 91mm and 84mm SAKs since around their official switch to aluminum liners in the very early 1950's (I'm not sure what was before then) to some point in the early 1970's (1973?). Then they completely stopped anodizing the liners of SAKs in the Elinox/Economy/Ecoline line. This change may have coincided (at least roughly) with the other changes that were made to this line around that time (change of tang stamps from big ELINOX over a crossbow to small ELINOX-SWITZERLAND-STAINLESS-ROSTFREI, change of corkscrew to a special economy version, change to polished openers, etc.). It persists to this day, so that except for the use of nylon scales, current ecoline/II versions of 91mm Victorinox SAKs differ from their regular-line versions also by lacking the anodized liner.

Anodizing of all liners persisted for regular-line SAKs until sometime in the late 1980's (1988-89?), at which time Victorinox stopped anodizing all of their liners except for the above mentioned single liner that still gets anodized on regular-line 91mm SAKs.

The next change involved only 84mm knives. They stopped anodizing all liners on all 84mm knives, so that current 84mm SAKs have no anodized liners at all. I don't really know when this happened. Possibly 2005, but for all I know it may have been several years earlier or later (I simply don't have enough 84mm SAKs to determine this at present).

As far as I can tell, Wenger never anodized any liners in their SAKs. This seems to persist for the Victorinox Delemont line.

I have no idea what happens with other sizes (like 111mm) of Victorinox knives that have some aluminum liners.

Finally, while I don't really know why they keep anodizing the particular single liner that they do on 91mm SAKs, my personal theory is that this is due to this liner having an exposed portion (next to the corkscrew/Phillips SD) that is visible and also tends to get easily scratched. Anodizing the corresponding liner usually helps to make this exposed portion look a bit nicer on used SAKs.
Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

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wales Offline hiraethus

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #24 on: March 29, 2018, 02:18:22 PM
Thanks Pabs; I stand corrected. :salute:


00 Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #25 on: March 29, 2018, 03:11:22 PM
No problem.  :cheers:
Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!


id Offline jaya_man

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #26 on: March 29, 2018, 03:45:26 PM
Awesome progress Lynn... can’t wait to see the finished project...

Hope you remembered to take pics of the parts?

Couldn’t find the pics I took for my master craftsman build, but here’s a pic of th parts that went into the Master Ranger build... just ignore the inline phillips layer...




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us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #27 on: March 29, 2018, 08:48:01 PM
Pablo... interesting. Thanks.

However, anodized or not, the liners on that older Huntsman are shot. I'm interested to know now if the only unbroken one was the theoretically anodized one.

jaya_man... I posted the pics of the knives taken apart already in the thread. I actually used those pics once I cleaned the parts to reassemble layers already. I've taken apart enough tools (and forgotten to document parts positions) to at least not fall into that particular trap. But thank you for reminding me.

Hiraethus, thanks on that description of peening.  :salute: It was about to come up in my 'I don't know what I'm doing' list of questions. Saves me from looking (more) stupid. :D

To all, please don't feel like i'm ignoring your post if i don't respond directly. I'm reading them all, and taking them all in.


us Offline Lynn LeFey

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #28 on: March 29, 2018, 09:52:32 PM
Next thing...

I... heh... I don't own a peening hammer, apparently.

And as it seems I've been forced into chemical warfare against my shower stall today, I don't know that I'll be able to get out to get one today. So, today, no progress.


gb Offline Wspeed

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Re: Lynn's First SAK Mod Build
Reply #29 on: March 29, 2018, 10:03:54 PM
That's ok we will wait  :popcorn: :tu:
fail to prepare prepare to fail


 

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