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Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light 695

Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 21,458 Gone

dks cy

********* *
Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light
« on: November 27, 2017, 06:30:50 PM »
EPSON (Seiko) AL21E movement, http://www1.epson.com.hk/wmfiles/Spec-Sheet/al21e.pdf  377 battery, no issues, had to use a rubber ball to remove the screw-down back. The inside of the back was not nicely polished. I greased the gasket.

Looks new, the sapphire helps.


Kelly: "Daddy, what makes men cheat on women?
Al : "Women!"

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Global Moderator Point Of No Return Posts: 37,833
Re: Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2017, 08:49:49 PM »
:like:
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 21,458 Gone

dks cy

********* *
Re: Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2017, 09:18:44 PM »
some people just like everything....

Kelly: "Daddy, what makes men cheat on women?
Al : "Women!"

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Global Moderator Point Of No Return Posts: 37,833
Re: Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2017, 09:21:29 PM »
Yeah...
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 21,458 Gone

dks cy

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Re: Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2017, 09:22:51 PM »
... and some just agree with any statement made....

Kelly: "Daddy, what makes men cheat on women?
Al : "Women!"

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Global Moderator Point Of No Return Posts: 37,833
Re: Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2017, 09:53:39 PM »
Yeah nar.
No Life Club Posts: 1,670
Re: Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2018, 09:04:59 AM »
 :nothingtoadd:

John
No Life Club Posts: 1,670
Re: Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2018, 02:31:07 PM »
More seriously . . . I'm not surprised the back isn't polished inside. I wouldn't expect it to be as it's an unnecessary non-value-added process. It's something only the person replacing the battery or doing other work on the watch will see.

Indeed, with mechanical watches you don't want a solid back polished inside. The brushed finish tends to trap the itty bitty motes that gum up mechanical movements. It's one of the reasons for perlage on bridges, auto-wind rotors, and the other horizontal surfaces of mechanical watch parts. The machinists doing the work began creating patterns out of the finishing they were doing. It wasn't just to look pretty for the few occasions on which a watchmaker might open the back as it was being done many decades before "display backs" with windows came into vogue. It served a useful function.

The size of the watch movement compared to the rest of the watch case was no surprise either. It's very common in the manufacture of less expensive quartz watches for the watch company to buy huge quantities of one movement, leveraging on quantity discounts, and keeping the stock of different movement calibers to a minimum. A movement the size of this one can be used in just about any 3-hand quartz they make, from a large men's to a very tiny woman's.

BTW, battery should last about 2 years in this Hattori movement.

John

John
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 5,497 motionless wheel, nothing is real
Re: Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2018, 02:59:57 PM »
Does that movement say 'no jewels?' Why would they bother putting that on there?  ???

I have a lot to learn.  :facepalm:
No Life Club Posts: 1,670
Re: Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2018, 03:20:21 PM »
Does that movement say 'no jewels?' Why would they bother putting that on there?  ???

I have a lot to learn.  :facepalm:
Yes. It has to do with import duties. Where a given watch (with movement inside) or bare movement is categorized in a massive document called the "Harmonized Tariff Schedule" (HTS) determines how much duty is to be assessed, if any, by percentage of value. The HTS is an international coding system used to classify goods being imported. The US has its own version which is based on the international one, which has the duties to be assessed, if any. For watches and watch movements, the number of jewels is one of the main criteria that categorizes the watch (or bare movement). There are several tiers based on number of jewels in the movement. Other features such as quartz or mechanical, etc., are also used to find the exact HTS number for it. The US version has the duties to be assessed for each HTS number, which can also vary by country of origin. Anyone who has imported or exported any goods commercially will know what the HTS is, but the general public doesn't even know it exists. Thus, marking it with "no" or "zero" jewels is important from a duty standpoint. Perhaps not coming in to the USA, but going from Japan to elsewhere in the world.

Edit 1:
Some mid-tier and higher end quartz movements are jeweled, typically not with very many, perhaps a half dozen or so. Most are not. They don't have nearly the lateral stresses on the staffs that a mainspring exerts in a mechanical.

Edit 2:
Break points in the HTS for watch movement jeweled bearings:
0-1 jewel
2-7 jewels
8-17 jewels
18 or more jewels
In addition, the HTSUS (version for USA Customs use) requires movements be marked with the country of origin, manufacturer's name and number of jewels.

For a mechanical movement, it's common practice to also mark the movement with how many positions the movement was adjusted for when the watch was made, including zero although that doesn't affect tariffs. Adjusting and Regulating are two completely different things. A mechanical watch movement has a "beat rate" for which it was designed to operate. The Seiko I'm wearing today has a 21.6kbph rate - kilobeats per hour. Adjusting one seeks eliminate beat rate variation due to position (relative to gravity) and temperature variation. If marked, the "adj" number refers to number of positions. Many are marked "unadj" which means none. The next tier is typically three positions. Going to five is expensive, and more than that is quite costly. The goal is reducing variation in beat rate, which inherently increases precision. Note that this is not accuracy. Regulation - regulating a movement - attempts to achieve greatest accuracy by setting the average beat rate so that gains and losses balance out and that over a longer period of time, such as a week, the gain and loss work out to effectively zero. Quartz watches also have a beat rate, but there's not audible ticking sound. It's the frequency at which the quartz crystal oscillator is designed to operate. Adjusting a watch movement is all about maximizing precision. Regulating one is all about maximizing accuracy.

John
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 05:05:52 PM by jalind »

John
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 5,497 motionless wheel, nothing is real
Re: Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2018, 05:00:22 PM »
Thanks John, makes more sense now. Doesn't seem like much of a selling point! :tu:

I think the Ronda 715 in my watch has 5 jewels even though it's quartz.
No Life Club Posts: 1,670
Re: Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2018, 05:11:05 PM »
The Ronda Mastertech (don't remember caliber number) in the Balmer I was wearing a few days ago has six jewels, and I have a very old Seiko SQ quartz that has a few jewels in its movement. With five jewels, you've got an upscale quartz movement that's intended to last much longer than the basic ones with zero jewels. Some quartz chronometer movements also have a few jewels.

John

John
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 5,497 motionless wheel, nothing is real
Re: Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2018, 05:43:55 PM »
I'm not sure about the standards, but so far mine seems to gain about one second a month, which is fine with me, most months I have to adjust the date anyway. Gaining one second is pretty easy to adjust, I simply pull out the crown to it's second position and push it back in and it's back to the right time. Not sure if that's a lot for a quartz movement, but I can live with it. Also not sure if that will change when the battery isn't as fresh.
No Life Club Posts: 3,397
Re: Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2018, 09:07:15 PM »
A second a month is actually pretty good for quartz. You can get much better, but then you'll have to pay for it. For instance, Casio guarantees most G-Shocks to have 15 seconds or less inaccuracy per month; about a factor 10 worse than yours.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 5,497 motionless wheel, nothing is real
Re: Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2018, 11:14:18 PM »
Thanks Steinar, good to know. I guess the accuracy of the G shocks does not apply to the atomic ones, or any gps enabled ones, they probably never need time adjustment.
No Life Club Posts: 1,670
Re: Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2018, 11:38:50 PM »
Thanks Steinar, good to know. I guess the accuracy of the G shocks does not apply to the atomic ones, or any gps enabled ones, they probably never need time adjustment.
I have a solar atomic G-Shock. It "phones home" every night to WWVB in Colorado to synchronize with it (operated by NIST, formerly the NBS). It's one of several time standards mine will use. Sometimes it will go a few nights without successfully phoning home. In between, it runs on its own quartz oscillator.

John

John
No Life Club Posts: 1,670
Re: Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2018, 03:52:33 PM »
Thanks Steinar, good to know. I guess the accuracy of the G shocks does not apply to the atomic ones, or any gps enabled ones, they probably never need time adjustment.
Steinar is correct. A standard quartz watch keeping +/- 15 seconds per year is outstanding, easily chronometer grade if it can sustain that under numerous temperature conditions, and definitely in the realm of HAQ (high accuracy quartz) movements which are expensive. The standard quartz movement is usually spec'ed to +/- 15 seconds per month. Without temperature compensation circuitry or built-in oven to maintain a constant temperature, quartz oscillators will generally run slightly faster when cold. If a quartz watch is stored for long periods, even at room temperature, it's normal for it to gain time a bit more than if it's worn every day. The difference between room temperature and wrist temperature when worn 12-16 hours per day is enough to measurably shift the rate over a month or so.

In addition, the crystals will drift slightly with age. A standard quartz watch 20-30 years later will typically have a slightly different rate compared to when it was new; the shift is gradual over time and eventually stops. For extreme accuracy quartz clocks and watches, the crystals used are aged to reduce this drift. AFAIK there's no method to accelerate this. One of the aspects of the Bulova Precisionist line when it first came out was the HAQ watch aficionados buying and testing them against Bulova's accuracy claims. There is no appreciable temperature compensation in the movement.

Some of them started filing warranty claims with Bulova for their Precisionist movements not meeting advertised accuracy. There was considerable evidence as well that Bulova had not used aged crystals. Bulova has since revised their advertising and how they give their specs, and what qualifies for warranty claim. Suffice it that the Precisionist movement can be more accurate, but it's not a HAQ which is an entirely different breed of clock and watch movement. Bulova acheived it with an ultra-high frequency quartz oscillator at 262.144kHz, 8x higher than the standard 32.768kHz oscillator. It inherently allows greater precision in movement manufacture and higher accuracy coming off the line. I have two of the Bulova, and Accutron II and a Precisionist. Battery life in them is about 2, perhaps 3 years which is disappointingly short. A proper men's quartz should get 5 years.

Bulova is not the first to do this with ultra-high frequency quartz oscillators. Seiko did it over 15 years ago with their 8F32 perpetual calendar family of precision movements, which run at a 6x higher 196.608kHz. I've got three of the Seiko, one of which has the 8F56 GMT variant inside. The battery life in them is about 10 years if you get a brand new battery for it and don't fiddle with the "verify year, month and day" feature which can drain the battery quickly as it indexes the date wheel dozens of times to accomplish it. The exception is when changing the battery, to verify that it is properly set to the year (in the leap-year cycle), month and day. It's a true perpetual that never needs to have it's date reset at the end of short months, even in a leap year. They've aged some and drifted slightly, but they're still significantly more accurate than the standard quartz. They're also temperature sensitive to whether they're being worn daily. Seiko discontinued the movement for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is battery change is anything but straightforward, and the watch kiosk "battery change" dweebs were destroying just about every one of the very fragile movements they laid hands on. The procedure must be carefully followed to prevent damaging (i.e. destroying) the movement as the circuit board is paper thin to make space for the large 3V Lithium watch battery. The other reason was Seiko creating their kinetic quartz movement with a power generating rotor that charges a large capacitor, which overtook very long battery life movements.

Seiko now has some HAQ movements that employ temperature compensation that they use in their JDM only (Japanese Domestic Market) Grand Seiko line. Bring a few grand or more to the table. Citizen, however, is king with their Chronomaster, also JDM only, and last I knew they were well over $2k, but they were getting about +/-5 seconds per year or better out of them. The Grand Seiko Quartz with their 9F movements aren't far behind that. A number of other companies also HAQ watches, and they're equally expensive, or more so.

For as much as I change which watch I'm wearing, which is very nearly daily, I don't need that kind of precision. If you're getting a second or two per month, rejoice, as it's extremely accurate for a general purpose quartz movement.

John

John
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 5,497 motionless wheel, nothing is real
Re: Inside the Orient OT8004MA Sun Light
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2018, 08:44:48 PM »
Thanks John, interesting stuff!  8)

I honestly don't need the kind of accuracy my watch delivers either. I think I got lucky because Ronda makes so many of these movements, that there is a good chance I could have ended up with one much less accurate. It keeps better time than the digital clock in my car, which when it's not connected to my phone, loses several minutes a day, and also better than my oven (which I use!  :rofl:), which gains 2 or 3 minutes a month. I'm pretty satisfied with it, and so much so that I will probably never need another one (unless my life changes significantly). It sure is an interesting field for collectors and aficionados, with lots of history and tech to explore, I had no idea it was so involved. Fun to learn about!  :tu:

 

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