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I'm lost!

pomsbz · 22 · 1005

il Offline pomsbz

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I'm lost!
on: May 22, 2018, 03:01:13 PM
Hi folks,

Specifically for outdoors activities.

GPS trackers, your phone with a GPS based app or maps and a compass. All tools to keep you on track and help you find your location.

I'd be interested in some talk about what you all think about the options? Minimalism, basic skills, outdoors proof, backup options, long term use, etc are all points made in this debate and I'm sure there are a bunch more.

I should add that I don't have any vested interest in the debate, I don't have a smartphone, a garmin or any maps.  :D
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 03:07:47 PM by pomsbz »
"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson


us Offline Aloha

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #1 on: May 22, 2018, 03:07:51 PM
Phone with GPS tracker is pretty good so long a I have coverage.  Map and compass is best option as I like to improve my skills.  I don't do much bush whacking so the trails are easy to follow.  There are a few that one could get disoriented on so I use markers like ribbon tied to a branch as a check point.  I'd like to get a dedicated GPS but I'm honestly not doing the type of hiking that "should" get me lost. 
Esse Quam Videri


wales Offline hiraethus

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #2 on: May 22, 2018, 03:26:17 PM
I use a Garmin Etrex 30GPS, loaded with Ordnance Survey maps (1:50,000 scale topo/contour raster mapping) and routable Open Street Map, when I'm on my bike.  Normally I plot a route beforehand using free online tools then download it to the GPS as a track to follow.  I occasionally use the routing function on the GPS to guide me to somewhere else.

I also use paper maps as you can't beat having a the overview when route planning, but they're a bit of a pain on the hill.  When you buy the OS maps they come with a free download of the digital map, so I also save the map to my phone for reference.  My iPhone has GPS so I don't need signal to get a position from that.

If I was off into the back country proper I'd take GPS with pre-planned route and a paper map/compass as backup.  I've always got my phone on me anyway.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 03:30:25 PM by hiraethus »


ca Offline Grant Lamontagne

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #3 on: May 22, 2018, 03:55:31 PM
I haven't used a paper map in years.  Ditto for a basic compass.

I'm able to use both of those, and I think they are very valuable skills to have.  It bothers me when people, especially people that claim to be outdoorsy types can't do the basic things like reading maps.  Trails are nice, and I tend to stick to them myself, but having a good idea where you are and where you are going is also important, especially when various trails converge.

That having been said, there are better tools available to us these days, so why not use them?  It would be silly not to- after all, how many of us still ride a horse to work?  Not many I'd imagine, because there are better options and newer tools available.

I like my GPS tracking because it gives me a better idea of exactly how far I have gone and eliminates the number one cause of people getting lost- human error.  Yes, they are dependent on a signal from satellites, yes the batteries die, and if you drop them they are pretty well toast.  That's when you rely on other skills like reading the position of the sun to determine your direction, observing distant landmarks to stay in a straight (ish) line and so on.

Def
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us Offline Aloha

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #4 on: May 22, 2018, 04:00:31 PM
Preplanned route is a great idea Hiraethus  :like:.  Kinda seems like a no brainer but I understand some just wing it.  We always preplan out long hikes and use open source mapping on our phones. 

Heres one way to get topo maps and I'm sure theres others. 
https://youtu.be/xhaaIG7qpNs
Esse Quam Videri


scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #5 on: May 22, 2018, 04:04:07 PM
Here was I thinking this thread was a very desperate cry for help. :D

I'm a paper map and compass guy myself.  I actually have nothing against GPS systems, it's just that I'm too cheap to buy one. ;) Heck, I even borrow a lot of maps from the library when I need them.  I've yet to properly lost, though I might have been a little vague as to my exact location once or twice.  :whistle:
Be excellent to each other and always know where your towel is.


us Offline Aloha

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #6 on: May 22, 2018, 04:08:44 PM
Just realized the topo maps may only be for US  :facepalm: sorry guys. 

Heres another good source for topo maps, US.
 https://youtu.be/2188-p_uFMY
Esse Quam Videri


il Offline pomsbz

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #7 on: May 22, 2018, 04:09:26 PM
Here was I thinking this thread was a very desperate cry for help. :D

I'm a paper map and compass guy myself.  I actually have nothing against GPS systems, it's just that I'm too cheap to buy one. ;) Heck, I even borrow a lot of maps from the library when I need them.  I've yet to properly lost, though I might have been a little vague as to my exact location once or twice.  :whistle:

You do have a point that I've been thinking about. These Garmin types of trackers are pretty expensive. If you have something basic which can reliably give you a map reference read out and you have a map and pencil, you've got it pretty much licked. It's not as funky as the modern systems with colour screens, etc but it does seem to me that you would have far less expense and weight (never mind far better battery life) given that you're carrying a map/compass as backup anyway?

Or am I way off base here?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 04:12:08 PM by pomsbz »
"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson


wales Offline hiraethus

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #8 on: May 22, 2018, 04:16:25 PM
Something like the Garmin Etrex 10, while still relatively expensive (£100 list in the UK) will do just that - give you an exact grid ref or lat/long position.  Combined with a paper map it's pretty powerful, and will record where you've been.  There are ways to get it to navigate preplanned route too, but I don't think you can store alternative maps on the device.  You'll get 3 or 4 full days walking out of a set of AAs, and mine has been faultless for the last 7 years (apart from losing the pin that holds the battery door shut - fixed with a paperclip 8)).

Or just get a smartphone. :pok:


il Offline pomsbz

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #9 on: May 22, 2018, 04:21:01 PM
Something like the Garmin Etrex 10, while still relatively expensive (£100 list in the UK) will do just that - give you an exact grid ref or lat/long position.  Combined with a paper map it's pretty powerful, and will record where you've been.  There are ways to get it to navigate preplanned route too, but I don't think you can store alternative maps on the device.  You'll get 3 or 4 full days walking out of a set of AAs, and mine has been faultless for the last 7 years (apart from losing the pin that holds the battery door shut - fixed with a paperclip 8)).

Or just get a smartphone. :pok:

I'd be interested in thoughts as to a smartphone vs tracker. Reliability/toughness vs apps, etc.
"It is better to lose health like a spendthrift than to waste it like a miser." - Robert Louis Stevenson


wales Offline hiraethus

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #10 on: May 22, 2018, 04:34:31 PM
Smartphone is good for short trips - using it for navigation eats the battery so you'll need some way of topping it up over longer periods.  Same goes for any GPS with an inbuilt battery though.  Waterproofing on most smartphones is poor, so an external case is needed.  Touchscreen and pan/zoom is great - though can be found on some GPS devices too.  Data charges might get you if you're using online mapping, though if you're out of signal range you might be stuck unless you can download the maps to your phone.

Dedicated GPS will be waterproof and more robust, but expensive as it's essentially single-purpose.  Many have small screens , no touch screen, fiddly buttons and clunky user interfaces.  Some run on AA batteries which is a big bonus for me, and I can get 30-40 hours continuous use from NiMh or Lithium batteries.  Maps can be expensive for the GPS, unless you can find a hooky copy from somewhere. :whistle:  You can get other features on the GPS too - heart rate monitor, cadence (for cycling), barometer/altimeter.


us Offline Aloha

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #11 on: May 22, 2018, 04:47:30 PM
I'll echo what Hiraethus said  :tu:.  A smart phone is a good option and many maps and gps functions are a lot better now with the current phones and getting better.  Fragility might be an issue if this is soley being relied upon.  I do think a smartphone is a good option for getting out and accuracy is really very good.  I've seen videos posted where its within 3% of a controlled distance tested.  Lots of features can be used offline as well.   
Esse Quam Videri


scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #12 on: May 22, 2018, 05:15:55 PM
I have actually used a GPS App in the past, but that was a couple of phones ago and I have to say I've not missed it.  In fact I'd forgotten all about it. :-[  IIRC it was a basic and free thing so I might as well put it on my current phone.
Be excellent to each other and always know where your towel is.


es Offline microbe

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #13 on: May 22, 2018, 05:15:55 PM
If i'm lost, I ask directions.  Or to my mobile, or to a random stranger. I never ask directions to my wife, cause usually, that's how I get lost in the first place.
I can use a map and compass if needed. But that need has not occurred in years. I would have to buy a map and compass to.
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us Offline ThundahBeagle

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #14 on: May 24, 2018, 07:17:16 AM
Something like the Garmin Etrex 10, while still relatively expensive (£100 list in the UK) will do just that - give you an exact grid ref or lat/long position.  Combined with a paper map it's pretty powerful, and will record where you've been.  There are ways to get it to navigate preplanned route too, but I don't think you can store alternative maps on the device.  You'll get 3 or 4 full days walking out of a set of AAs, and mine has been faultless for the last 7 years (apart from losing the pin that holds the battery door shut - fixed with a paperclip 8)).

Or just get a smartphone. :pok:

While I do agree with you to some degree, H (I do use a GPS in the truck), I can "record" my hiking route and "pre-plan my route" on a nice tyvek map in pencil or pen as well.

One can be stuck on Mt Washington for more than 4 days and an Appalachian Trail section hike can surely last longer than that.

In many places, there are valleys and hollows between mountains that have no cell reception,  and God forbid you take a Dixie into a river or pond by mistake. Or a downpour catches you unawares. ..

I could put my tyvek map on the ground and roll my truck over it and it would still work. Not so the electronics. So I do very much like the old school approach, even though I can appreciate the use of modern technology


us Offline ThundahBeagle

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #15 on: May 24, 2018, 07:27:23 AM
Really the best stuff for roughing it is always the least tech-infused,  exept for lights.

My ideal adventure SUV would be a Jeep Cherokee XJ (1985-2091) or an old Bronco II, or a big Blazer... manual transmission  (you can control downhill better in a manual) and hand crank windows.

You can push-start it if need be and roll the windows down or up even without electrical or the engine on.

This map question follows my thinking on that


nz Offline Syncop8r

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #16 on: May 24, 2018, 08:45:09 AM
Smartphone is good for short trips - using it for navigation eats the battery so you'll need some way of topping it up over longer periods.  Same goes for any GPS with an inbuilt battery though.  Waterproofing on most smartphones is poor, so an external case is needed.  Touchscreen and pan/zoom is great - though can be found on some GPS devices too.  Data charges might get you if you're using online mapping, though if you're out of signal range you might be stuck unless you can download the maps to your phone.
My phone can last for days when I take it hiking and use it as a camera provided I set it on flight mode.
I believe GPS still works on flight mode.... so I wonder if the battery would also last for a long time if using downloaded maps, depending on the app.  :think:


wales Offline hiraethus

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #17 on: May 24, 2018, 08:58:36 AM
ThundahBeagle, 10 years personal experience with different Garmin GPS units has shown me that they're robust, easy to use, completely waterproof - have been used in constant rain for 12 hours or more at at a time -  and reliable.  I've had two failures: one where the memory card came loose and another where the pin holding the battery door shut dropped out.  Both were fixed relatively easily.

The GPS relies on satellite communications not cell phone data and rarely, if ever, loses position - even in mountainous country or dense woodland.

With a bit of care (use the supplied lanyard to tether the device, don't put it on the floor :pok:) and some prior planning (take spare batteries, work out where you might be able to buy more) they rarely cause any problems.

For something like the Appalachian Trail I would expect not to use the GPS or a map often - follow the way markers, and use the GPS to double check position against a map if you happen to get lost.


wales Offline hiraethus

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #18 on: May 24, 2018, 09:00:51 AM
I believe GPS still works on flight mode.... so I wonder if the battery would also last for a long time if using downloaded maps, depending on the app.  :think:

Mine (iPhone SE) certainly works as a GPS with no phone signal.  I've not used it for long periods though, so don't know about battery drain.  I tend to use mine to check a large scale map if for some reason I'm not following a track on my GPS or need a bit more detail than the map onboard the GPS will give me.


england Offline Kev D

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #19 on: May 24, 2018, 10:47:18 AM
If lost when out and about I just use my android phone. The built in gps, as well as the maps, google and AroundMe apps can get me just about anywhere or find just about anything I need.

When I geocache and am looking for specific coordinates or routes (or need more accuracy in trees than my cell phone gps can offer) I use a dedicated garmin gps handheld for it, and I have the montana 600T.  I had a older garmin (predecessor the gpsmap64) before it but upgraded to the 600T because it has large touch screen, is just as waterproof and has a dedicated lithium ion battery that lasts for a long time, but if it goes flat and you still need your gps can also use standard AA batteries as well. It's also got a built in camera and can also be used as a satnav in a car so is very versatile.  The upside is it is much easier to use than my old one, the downside it is quite a bit heavier.  It's not really a unit for minimalism, but I'd highly recommend one. It's been superseded a few times by now though.



scotland Offline Gareth

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #20 on: May 24, 2018, 02:19:09 PM
This has gotten me to dig out my old Samsung Galaxy Ace to try out it's GPS app.  No SIM card so no data and it works just fine for GPS.  Given I added an over sized battery to this it's lasted for four days in flight mode, though I doubt that would be true if I had the GPS receiver turned on all the time.  I might just stick this in my bag next time I'm out and have a play.
Be excellent to each other and always know where your towel is.


us Offline ThundahBeagle

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Re: I'm lost!
Reply #21 on: May 25, 2018, 04:22:42 AM
ThundahBeagle, 10 years personal experience with different Garmin GPS units has shown me that they're robust, easy to use, completely waterproof - have been used in constant rain for 12 hours or more at at a time -  and reliable.  I've had two failures: one where the memory card came loose and another where the pin holding the battery door shut dropped out.  Both were fixed relatively easily.

The GPS relies on satellite communications not cell phone data and rarely, if ever, loses position - even in mountainous country or dense woodland.

With a bit of care (use the supplied lanyard to tether the device, don't put it on the floor :pok:) and some prior planning (take spare batteries, work out where you might be able to buy more) they rarely cause any problems.

For something like the Appalachian Trail I would expect not to use the GPS or a map often - follow the way markers, and use the GPS to double check position against a map if you happen to get lost.

H,

All very good points and noted. I primarily use my dedicated GPS in the truck as I drive out of my area of comfort or when seeking alternate routes.

Of course, the technology is becoming more robust every year, which only drives your point home all the better.

Thanks for the info

Thunda


 

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