Need help finding an older disco'd model...

[NJBillK]

First off, pardon me if I run afoul of any rules, I am still less than 5 posts into my membership and they are not intentional.

Ok, long story short, much like most of us, I grew up using SAKs and I have grown to recognize them as ideally being "all that you need with nothing you do not". This has led me on a search for what I deem as perfect for my one SAK carry option (hiking/camp). Oddly enough, visualizing the "perfect" model tends to be the hard part, mostly due to their being so many options. This was not the case for me. I found the one that I want in short order, and I have been looking for one for almost the last 5 years...

The pattern/model I want to get my hands on is a Wenger Professional 4 Layer. The tool layout and selection represents everything that I would need or use in camp with nothing I wouldn't.
- Doesn't have a Can opener** or corkscrew.
- Does have, well, see below.

If anyone has any information beyond what SAKwiki has I would be greatly appreciative.

The other option would be to make one. This is where the asterisk on the can opener come into play.
If I find a model that is inexpensive and has a sacking needle, I will make a newer alox version. If I have an open layer end, I will add the can opener.
Sorry for the long post, but I feel most of it is warranted, given my situation.


If you do not have any leads or info, but have a particular disco'd model that you are pining after, post it and let's see if we can help one another out.

[ThePeacent]

If you do not have any leads or info, but have a particular disco'd model that you are pining after, post it and let's see if we can help one another out.

I am sure we have many experts here with a greater knowledge and information than that on the SAKWiki, it's usually only a matter of time until one of them comes along and tells everything he knows 

[NJBillK]

If you do not have any leads or info, but have a particular disco'd model that you are pining after, post it and let's see if we can help one another out.

I am sure we have many experts here with a greater knowledge and information than that on the SAKWiki, it's usually only a matter of time until one of them comes along and tells everything he knows 

One can hope...

I am also interested in what knives others have been seeking for a while. I know I am not the only person hunting down a particularly hard to find knife.

[Ron Who]

If you´re going to do a mod: Syph007 makes titanium sacking needles that fit on a 91mm woodsaw spring. Maybe you can get one.

[NJBillK]

If you´re going to do a mod: Syph007 makes titanium sacking needles that fit on a 91mm woodsaw spring. Maybe you can get one.

Thank you for posting this. This may work out nicely, even though it will add a layer. One of the reasons I like the stock Sacking Needle is that it doesn't add a layer, but adds more utility from the handles.

That being said, I am going to be giving this a lot of thought.
Thank you.

[AndyTiedye]

One of the reasons I like the stock Sacking Needle is that it doesn't add a layer, but adds more utility from the handles.

The sacking needle on that Professional adds a layer. Is the "stock" sacking needle (a.k.a. marlinspike) you refer to the one on the First Mate, Midshipman, etc.?

The First Mate is very close to what you want, minus the awl.

[NJBillK]

The sacking needle on that Professional adds a layer. Is the "stock" sacking needle (a.k.a. marlinspike) you refer to the one on the First Mate, Midshipman, etc.?

The First Mate is very close to what you want, minus the awl.
(Image removed from quote.)

Thank you for bringing the additional layer on the Professional to my attention. I completely missed that.
This puts the First Mate, and the Ti Custom sacking needle on an even playing field.

I am sure I could figure out the layer count that I would want, and order the Sacking needle, spring scales, and correct screw/hardware length from Syph. Then all I would need to do would be ream/sand out the ID of the pieces and corresponding springs that I would be putting in.

Since I was planning on cannibalizing a SAK, I grabbed a Castaway from Swissbianco in Naranja. I was planning on pulling the second main blade and putting in an awl/caplifter layer from another SAK and making another knife from all of the random leftovers.

After some thinking about the side that the cap lifter and awl are pulled from, a midline sacking needle would probably work better, unless the lifter/awl were flipped.

[Ron Who]

Be warned though that the Ti sacking needle needs brass washers or it won´t move properly.

[AndyTiedye]

Why not just buy a First Mate instead of using a Swissbianco as mod fodder?

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk

[NJBillK]

Why not just buy a First Mate instead of using a Swissbianco as mod fodder?

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk

The First Mate still needs the awl and if I am going to add that layer, I might as well add a can opener since I will have an empty end.

The can opener I am indifferent about, but I have no want for a corkscrew, or most of the back side tools, even though I can see the usefulness of the Phillips head.

SAKs themselves have always held a place in my mind as being everything you need it nothing you do not. For me, that particular knife is the Professional 4 layer. Since I can't find one (and the new generation saws work better), I would prefer to make my user from modern parts. I would like to have an original, but if I had to choose between an original or a modern version, I would take the modern as a user.

[NJBillK]

Be warned though that the Ti sacking needle needs brass washers or it won´t move properly.

Thank you. Due to the softness of the Ti, I am sure galling would be an issue without washers. I will be sure to include them in the parts list I am drawing up.

[hiraethus]

Don't assume that Syph will sell parts individually.

[Syem]

The First Mate still needs the awl and if I am going to add that layer

The marlinspike on the First Mate is often pointy enough to act as an awl. If not you could always sharpen it a bit. The thing you may then be missing is a reamer I guess, but you didn't mention it...

Also, I would tend to disagree on the "everything you need with nothing you don't" definition. In terms of carried SAK I've almost always had more than I needed, or than I thought I needed... until an unexpected situation came along which required me to get creative with what I had and use that one tool I always thought was useless. For me SAKs are "Everything you need plus everything you didn't know you were going to need" but I'm very much a "just in case" kind of guy so that maybe why I look at it like that

For example I've never used the can opener as a can opener. Always thought it was ridiculous to have that on a SAK but its tip works great as a Philips screwdriver in a pinch (on the Victorinox can opener at least).

I understand your search for the "perfect" SAK though and wish you the best of luck in your search for a collector NiB 4 Layers Professional. The tricky part is that lots of people don't label SAKs right when selling them second-hand.
I would offer to try and find one for you in Switzerland but I've been snatching all the Wenger Professional models I could find for myself. And there's not that many around...

Welcome to the MTo btw   
 

[NJBillK]

The First Mate still needs the awl and if I am going to add that layer

The marlinspike on the First Mate is often pointy enough to act as an awl. If not you could always sharpen it a bit. The thing you may then be missing is a reamer I guess, but you didn't mention it...

Also, I would tend to disagree on the "everything you need with nothing you don't" definition. In terms of carried SAK I've almost always had more than I needed, or than I thought I needed... until an unexpected situation came along which required me to get creative with what I had and use that one tool I always thought was useless. For me SAKs are "Everything you need plus everything you didn't know you were going to need" but I'm very much a "just in case" kind of guy so that maybe why I look at it like that

For example I've never used the can opener as a can opener. Always thought it was ridiculous to have that on a SAK but its tip works great as a Philips screwdriver in a pinch (on the Victorinox can opener at least).

I understand your search for the "perfect" SAK though and wish you the best of luck in your search for a collector NiB 4 Layers Professional. The tricky part is that lots of people don't label SAKs right when selling them second-hand.
I would offer to try and find one for you in Switzerland but I've been snatching all the Wenger Professional models I could find for myself. And there's not that many around...

Welcome to the MTo btw 

Thank you for the warm welcome.

I appreciate the offer, and I haven't been able to pin down whether this model was a world wide release or European release... I have only seen two in the wild, and both of the gentlemen who owned them were from Germany.

I do not seek a NiB only, I wouldn't mind if it was a user, that just means it may see occasional carry, but not steady use.

I do like the reamer aspect of the awl, and for rope/line work, I would rather not have a sharpened edge to the Marlin Spike (this was a concern of mine with the Ti Custom from Syph), though that is easy enough to fix with some sandpaper and a leather backer.

If you would keep an eye out for a user that doesn't pass your muster,I would love to acquire one.

Thank you again.

[Ron Who]

I am sure I could figure out the layer count that I would want, and order the Sacking needle, spring scales, and correct screw/hardware length from Syph.

Don't assume that Syph will sell parts individually.

Indeed. Modding SAKs is Syph´s way of making a living.
He might sell you a part if you ask him nicely but if you want the whole shebang why don´t you let him do the mod.

[NJBillK]

Don't assume that Syph will sell parts individually.

Indeed. Modding SAKs is Syph´s way of making a living.
He might sell you a part if you ask him nicely but if you want the whole shebang why don´t you let him do the mod.

I can understand this, but my way of thinking is based in the amount of dollars for effort put in.

While I do know that he does this for a profit, that leads me to believe that he wouldn't mind sticking a few quick bucks in his pocket just for packaging up some parts and mailing them. Knowing his work, I would think that he has a few knives on his plate at any given time. Due to this, and the fact that time is the one item that can't be replaced or earned, selling parts should be an easy way for most folks to make a few bucks the easy way.

Thank you both for your input and concern. I hope it does work out. If it doesn't, then I really haven't lost anything, I just haven't gained anything either... This would leave me in the same spot that I was in prior to learning of his parts.

As for why not have him do all of the work? I enjoy working on my knives. I can do it, and I have the want to do so.

[Don Pablo]

Keep in mind that the parts that syph makes have larger than normal pivot holes in order to be compatible with the screws he uses to hold the knives together.

[NJBillK]

Keep in mind that the parts that syph makes have larger than normal pivot holes in order to be compatible with the screws he uses to hold the knives together.

I understand this, I have been following his work and builds on Bladeforums for quite some time. I have been contemplating a screw based conversion for my build for a while now and he was one of the first folks that I bounced the idea off of, knowing that he does it regularly.

[cody6268]

The way I do it is that in my pocket, I have a  standard size SAK (91mm) plus an old Case rigging knife on my belt in a pouch (about five inches closed). That way I have a big blade for cutting heavier material, as well as a spike that gets knots out of most rope. In my experience, the awl and corkscrew can get it done, some lines I've got knots out with the Phillips.

Currently, 1950s era Italian issue knives are super cheap right now from various surplus places if you want that type.