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Fasting........

mc Offline Gerhard Gerber

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Fasting........
on: July 04, 2018, 09:24:22 AM
Say what you will about evil big brother google, and specifically youtube, some of the suggested videos end up being spot-on.

Joe Rogan videos kept popping up when I started following MMA, but the guests he has on his podcasts and the topics are just fascinating.....

I can't remember the guest, but he's testing an immune suppressor used for organ transplant patients on himself.  One thing he said really stuck with me, I'm paraphrasing - the only proven life extending technique we know of today is fasting....

Last night I watched this:  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7813060/

This comes on top of a conversation with a good friend on Friday afternoon, their 5 year old son who was diagnosed with diabetes age 3.  He was recently diagnosed with another condition that leaves him completely gluten intolerant.

Based on my own success with a LCHF diet I often asked him why they don't try it, to be frank his answer always pissed me off because it amounted to "we've been dealing with this for years and we know best".......

Strange thing is, with the forced diet change his sugar levels are stable throughout the day...........  :whistle:

Do yourself a favour and watch the docu........I've been thinking about this for a while and now I'm convinced this is the next step towards a healthier life, definitely would eliminate the problems I create for myself at least once a week  :facepalm:

I have two major problems........1) will have to delay my first coffee by 2-3 hours..........2) will have to stop drinking beer before I even have a proper buzz on.  :oops:


si Offline lister

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #1 on: July 04, 2018, 01:10:50 PM
Fasting is a proven technique of extending life expectancy in mice. For humans we just don't know yet if it works (at least the last time I checked which was not that long ago). We know that it has some health benefits in humans. The problem is that we live so long that it takes quite some time to actually find out if fasting had any impact on the length of life. While mice live for 2-3 years so studies can be done fast.  :D
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mc Offline Gerhard Gerber

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #2 on: July 04, 2018, 02:45:55 PM
Granted  :salute:

Personally I'm not looking to extend my life time, no pension, no social security and a scary public health system.......will be working until I die even if I determine when that is  :whistle:

I wouldn't however mind improving my day to day life, putting down cigarettes 6 years ago was one step, loosing 40kg's on LCHF was a next step....only gained back 10kg and relatively stable.

Problem is I'm still too heavy, still eat too much, and I tend to be hangry in the mornings......

My past experiences leads me to believe the 2 week transition period they mention might be horrible, but what follows seems very worthwhile.

Quote
While mice live for 2-3 years so studies can be done fast.


Clearly you haven't watched it, but do........I found the part about Sweden in the 70's interesting.....  :whistle:

Also fascinating is their explanation for the American obesity crisis......makes a lot of sense....

And now for a teaser.....the good news is the 3rd test group of mice they mention  :cheers:   


si Offline lister

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #3 on: July 04, 2018, 03:22:15 PM
Nope, I didn't watch the movie yet. But I did read about fasting (try to follow hacker news and miss the post about fasting...  :D). The interesting thing is that even one day fasting a month shows positive effects on health. And there were some studies done that indicate that for many people who struggle to loose weight one day a week of fasting without limiting their food intake on other days led to them loosing weight.

But as always just because someone did a study does not mean that the results are 100% right. Biology is a messy and hard area of study.  :D
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 03:27:39 PM by lister »
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ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #4 on: July 04, 2018, 03:29:48 PM
Question, speaking as someone who should ideally gain a little weight and doesn't know anything about fasting, do any of its potential benefits apply to me?
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pt Offline pfrsantos

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #5 on: July 04, 2018, 04:06:15 PM
Question, speaking as someone who should ideally gain a little weight and doesn't know anything about fasting, do any of its potential benefits apply to me?

Do the exact opposite of what they show in the movie...

 :pok: :pok:
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es Offline ThePeacent

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #6 on: July 04, 2018, 04:06:21 PM
Question, speaking as someone who should ideally gain a little weight and doesn't know anything about fasting, do any of its potential benefits apply to me?

not really, at this age,  :twak:
glucose and blood sugar control, hormone production, lower cholesterol levels, hunger control and management, cellular renovation etc. are not concerns at your age and given your body profile and characteristics.

In fact, it could very well be counterproductive as at this age you need stable energy input for proper body growth and brain function, also the effects of fasting on muscle tissue depletion and destruction and its effects on cell growth, hormone reguation in young bodies and proper growth and developemnt of tissues and organs have not been studied enough,

especially on subjects of your age  :ahhh

Even though Dr.Fung and others seem to believe that growth hormone production is enhanced during fasting and muscle tissue creation is in fact accelerated during these periods, their work and studies contradict those of others, and their conclusions do not agree with others from well known and reputable doctors and investigators  :salute:
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pt Offline pfrsantos

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #7 on: July 04, 2018, 04:06:41 PM
Question, speaking as someone who should ideally gain a little weight and doesn't know anything about fasting, do any of its potential benefits apply to me?

Do the exact opposite of what they show in the movie...

 :pok: :pok:

That's what she said, too...

 :whistle:
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It is just a matter of time before they add the word “Syndrome” after my last name.

I don't have OCD, I have OCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

Eff the ineffable, scrut the inscrutable.

IYCRTYSWTMTFOT



si Offline lister

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #8 on: July 04, 2018, 04:29:28 PM
What age? His profile clearly states that he is a 100 year old male!  :twak:

 :D
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pt Offline pfrsantos

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #9 on: July 04, 2018, 04:37:26 PM
What age? His profile clearly states that he is a 100 year old male!  :twak:

 :D

That's in dog years conversion...

 :pok: :pok:
________________________________
It is just a matter of time before they add the word “Syndrome” after my last name.

I don't have OCD, I have OCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

Eff the ineffable, scrut the inscrutable.

IYCRTYSWTMTFOT



si Offline lister

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #10 on: July 04, 2018, 04:40:10 PM
What age? His profile clearly states that he is a 100 year old male!  :twak:

 :D

That's in dog years conversion...

 :pok: :pok:

For smurfs sake! Can we all agree to stop using all the weird measurement systems and stick to SI units?  :ahhh

 :D
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ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #11 on: July 04, 2018, 04:42:23 PM
Question, speaking as someone who should ideally gain a little weight and doesn't know anything about fasting, do any of its potential benefits apply to me?

not really, at this age,  :twak:
glucose and blood sugar control, hormone production, lower cholesterol levels, hunger control and management, cellular renovation etc. are not concerns at your age and given your body profile and characteristics.

In fact, it could very well be counterproductive as at this age you need stable energy input for proper body growth and brain function, also the effects of fasting on muscle tissue depletion and destruction and its effects on cell growth, hormone reguation in young bodies and proper growth and developemnt of tissues and organs have not been studied enough,

especially on subjects of your age  :ahhh

Even though Dr.Fung and others seem to believe that growth hormone production is enhanced during fasting and muscle tissue creation is in fact accelerated during these periods, their work and studies contradict those of others, and their conclusions do not agree with others from well known and reputable doctors and investigators  :salute:
Ah, ok.  :cheers:
I’ll just keep eating my vegetables then.... :tu:
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ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #12 on: July 04, 2018, 04:47:44 PM
What age? His profile clearly states that he is a 100 year old male!  :twak:

 :D

That's in dog years conversion...

 :pok: :pok:

For smurfs sake! Can we all agree to stop using all the weird measurement systems and stick to SI units?  :ahhh

 :D
I’m approximately 5.7 x 108 seconds old, how’s that?
Or approximately 0.57 Gigaseconds, if you prefer.

:D
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us Offline Aloha

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #13 on: July 04, 2018, 04:50:17 PM
Increased life expectancy, not sure how that works or if thats possible.  I'm of the belief that quality of life or a healthy life can be had thru diet and exercise with out question.  Smoking, drinking, over eating, or low quality diet are just one part of a unhealthy life.  Lack of exercise and certainly an unhealthy mental/emotional life also needs to be factored in IMO.  With the variety of diets people partake in I'm often skeptical of any real lasting change.  I've always been of the mindset it needs to be a lifestyle change not just I'll quit eating bread, for example.     
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mc Offline Gerhard Gerber

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #14 on: July 05, 2018, 09:40:17 AM
Question, speaking as someone who should ideally gain a little weight and doesn't know anything about fasting, do any of its potential benefits apply to me?


not really, at this age,  :twak:
glucose and blood sugar control, hormone production, lower cholesterol levels, hunger control and management, cellular renovation etc. are not concerns at your age and given your body profile and characteristics.


What he said.......except I wish I'd made all the good changes MUCH younger..........

Increased life expectancy, not sure how that works or if thats possible.  I'm of the belief that quality of life or a healthy life can be had thru diet and exercise with out question.  Smoking, drinking, over eating, or low quality diet are just one part of a unhealthy life.  Lack of exercise and certainly an unhealthy mental/emotional life also needs to be factored in IMO.  With the variety of diets people partake in I'm often skeptical of any real lasting change.  I've always been of the mindset it needs to be a lifestyle change not just I'll quit eating bread, for example.     

They mentioned sleep and exercise almost as much as diet.......that's what I appreciate most, this is not a diet, this is a lifestyle.

I don't expect my later years to be comfortable.

I come from a long line of comfort eaters, and I want to break that chain, and not dig my grave with my teeth...  :salute:

 



nz Offline Syncop8r

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #15 on: July 05, 2018, 10:39:52 AM
Slightly off topic, I found this talk fascinating http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018648768/dr-michael-mosley-on-gut-health .
I would look into gut health before I look at fasting.


pt Offline pfrsantos

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #16 on: July 05, 2018, 11:38:25 AM
Slightly off topic, I found this talk fascinating http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018648768/dr-michael-mosley-on-gut-health .
I would look into gut health before I look at fasting.

Dude, you should go out, look at flowers, birds, small fluffy rodents... Trust me, that's way better than looking at guts (healthy or otherwise).

 :P :pok: :pok:
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It is just a matter of time before they add the word “Syndrome” after my last name.

I don't have OCD, I have OCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

Eff the ineffable, scrut the inscrutable.

IYCRTYSWTMTFOT



mc Offline Gerhard Gerber

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #17 on: July 05, 2018, 12:27:12 PM
Slightly off topic, I found this talk fascinating http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018648768/dr-michael-mosley-on-gut-health .
I would look into gut health before I look at fasting.

I joke, but it might be true....that some of my problems come from my mother not having milk when I was born.

I have a very sensitive stomach compared to my parents.......my dad could give a junkyard dog a go getting away with eating smurf.


For those that won't make the effort, they cover intermittent fasting, water fasting, religious fasting as well as eating disorders.

Relevant for me now is the first one, which simply entails not eating for 12-14 hours of each day.

They make a very good argument for this compared to current wisdom, but (I'm not) sorry to say everybody that sells themselves as dietitians etc lost my attention and respect after what I experienced changing to LCHF, which they largely discredit.....  :think:

Stress, drinking too much, eating too much and not nearly enough exercise......last check-up my sugar, cholesterol and blood pressure made the nurse ask my age......her reply was "very good...."

I firmly believe the best way to health is getting as close to the natural state of the human animal without technology and civilization.  Whole foods from the local environment with limited intake and a lot of activity.

I leave you with this  :cheers:
https://youtu.be/jqbGXl5lxEg


nz Offline Syncop8r

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #18 on: July 05, 2018, 01:58:55 PM
I am taking more notice of the gut health thing because it is backed by scientific evidence, not just a fad put forth by nutritionists.

Being born by Caesarian Section can be detrimental to your gut (and therefore your) health as mentioned in the interview.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 02:00:48 PM by Syncop8r »


es Offline ThePeacent

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #19 on: July 05, 2018, 02:13:54 PM
I am taking more notice of the gut health thing because it is backed by scientific evidence, not just a fad put forth by nutritionists.


I won't go further into it because you can do your research,  :cheers:  but there are quite a few people and studies linking fasting with improved gut flora, growth of beneficial species of intestinal bacteria and larger, healthier bacteria communities related to intermittent fasting, complimented by an appropriate diet  :salute:


They make a very good argument for this compared to current wisdom, but (I'm not) sorry to say everybody that sells themselves as dietitians etc lost my attention and respect after what I experienced changing to LCHF, which they largely discredit.....  :think:




Gerhard, I suppose you've already read the, but for interesting reading on LCHF and keto, I can recommend:

- The Big Fat Surprise (Nina Teicholz)
- Why We Get Fat, and What to do About It (Gary Taubes)
- Keto Clarity (Jimmy Moore)

these three I enjoyed a lot and I would consider cornerstones of the Keto publications and books about Low Carb  :salute:
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mc Offline Gerhard Gerber

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #20 on: July 05, 2018, 02:26:35 PM

Gerhard, I suppose you've already read the, but for interesting reading on LCHF and keto, I can recommend:

- The Big Fat Surprise (Nina Teicholz)
- Why We Get Fat, and What to do About It (Gary Taubes)
- Keto Clarity (Jimmy Moore)

these three I enjoyed a lot and I would consider cornerstones of the Keto publications and books about Low Carb  :salute:

No I haven't, but I'll look into them  :salute:

I know about LCHF thanks to South African Dr Tim Noakes who is literally being persecuted and prosecuted about advice he gave.

I'm not a religious follower or blessed with exceptional will power, so I just cut bread and sugar completely, followed by whatever food I found made me "sick".

Not sure how combining low carb and fasting will go, but I think fasting combined with some of the carbs that don't have negative effects (potatoes?) might be worth looking into....

 


si Offline lister

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #21 on: July 05, 2018, 04:26:28 PM

Gerhard, I suppose you've already read the, but for interesting reading on LCHF and keto, I can recommend:

- The Big Fat Surprise (Nina Teicholz)
- Why We Get Fat, and What to do About It (Gary Taubes)
- Keto Clarity (Jimmy Moore)

these three I enjoyed a lot and I would consider cornerstones of the Keto publications and books about Low Carb  :salute:

No I haven't, but I'll look into them  :salute:

I know about LCHF thanks to South African Dr Tim Noakes who is literally being persecuted and prosecuted about advice he gave.

I'm not a religious follower or blessed with exceptional will power, so I just cut bread and sugar completely, followed by whatever food I found made me "sick".

Not sure how combining low carb and fasting will go, but I think fasting combined with some of the carbs that don't have negative effects (potatoes?) might be worth looking into....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttMrSCnQnnk

 :rofl:
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hr Offline styx

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #22 on: July 05, 2018, 08:15:22 PM
a bit back on topic, i've been thinking to include a 36 hour fast every 2 weeks
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si Offline lister

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #23 on: July 05, 2018, 10:29:04 PM
a bit back on topic, i've been thinking to include a 36 hour fast every 2 weeks

You call that being off topic? You do know this is the MTO right?  :D
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es Offline ThePeacent

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #24 on: July 05, 2018, 10:52:00 PM

Gerhard, I suppose you've already read the, but for interesting reading on LCHF and keto, I can recommend:

- The Big Fat Surprise (Nina Teicholz)
- Why We Get Fat, and What to do About It (Gary Taubes)
- Keto Clarity (Jimmy Moore)

these three I enjoyed a lot and I would consider cornerstones of the Keto publications and books about Low Carb  :salute:

No I haven't, but I'll look into them  :salute:

I know about LCHF thanks to South African Dr Tim Noakes who is literally being persecuted and prosecuted about advice he gave.

I'm not a religious follower or blessed with exceptional will power, so I just cut bread and sugar completely, followed by whatever food I found made me "sick".

Not sure how combining low carb and fasting will go, but I think fasting combined with some of the carbs that don't have negative effects (potatoes?) might be worth looking into....

well I am also a fan of Dr.Noakes and have seen many of his hour long speeches and conferences,
how could I forget him  :facepalm:

I believe he also starred in the "Running on Fat" documentary, a good introduction to LCHF and in a few others about the subject  :salute:

Many experts and nutritionists believe that the best diet to be on when starting fasting and committing to it is one in which blood sugar, hormone regulation (leptine/greline, insulin, etc.) and other blood markers are already stable and improved, and that a low carb diet is the most fitting for that.

If you're used to eat few carbs your insulin levels are much more better balanced  :) and thus your hunger level is more controllable,  :tu: natural and regulated. If you are already in a good, stable status then going into fasting and increasing the length of fasting periods will be much easier and require much less adaptation or your body than if you were on a high carb diet to begin with,

because in those diets insulin resistance is higher, hunger regulation is worse (thus the hunger pangs and blood sugar spikes and depletions every few hours) and cravings appear very quickly, because the body is already used to consuming sugars and "addicted" to carbs, and accustomed to using them as an energy source many times thought the day

Thus LCHF is not only the most appropriate diet to follow the months before starting fasting (your hormones are regulated, your body accustomed to absence of blood sugar spikes and carb digestion), but it is also arguably the best diet to be in while eating in between fasting periods (because a smaller rise in blood sugar and therefore a smaller drop in it afterwards will not cause the feeling of hunger and the need to eat again as quickly or as aggressively as if you ate carbs to break your fasting)

finally, no, potatoes are not a good carb in any way for this approach,

they're not good for LCHF because they are basically carbs, low fiber, have a big GI, a huge GL,  :ahhh and are quickly and easily digested and absorbed thus spiking your blood sugar immensely  :P

they're not good for fasting either because their easily absorbed carbs will lead to a rapid hormonal response (insulin secretion), they will be immediately digested and stored as fat if not burned,  :-\ and soon you'll be hungry again, your energy levels will drop,  :( and the few food you will have eaten in between fast will be barely nutritious (potatoes are really low in nutrients compared to almost any other vegetable, fruit, nightshade or plant  based food)  :facepalm:

Just my two cents on it,
there are hundreds of more nutritious, adequate and natural carbohydrates to eat instead of potatoes in between fasting periods, and in a LCHF diet  :tu:
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es Offline ThePeacent

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #25 on: July 05, 2018, 11:07:10 PM
a bit back on topic, i've been thinking to include a 36 hour fast every 2 weeks

Oh sorry I just missed you post with my long rambling  :facepalm:

I was thinking of doing a similar thing and considered that if any of us want to try this out we could do a "Fasting Thread/Challenge" with the type of fasting more appropriate for each of us (24hrs, 2/7 a week, 72hrs, alternate day fasting [ADF] and so on) and posting on the thread for encouragement and support as well as telling the progress we have made, physically and/or mentally.  ;)

I am no stranger to fasting and I know I get angry and bad tempered after a while without eating  :whistle: (48hrs plus of fasting) so sharing my rambling  :rant: and thoughts with others in similar situations and challenges always helps  :tu:

I have seen this in other forums and tried it on some facebook groups (Intermittent Fasting [IF], Ketogenic Success, etc) and I find it an interesting and revealing experience and learning process about your own body  :salute:
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si Offline lister

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #26 on: July 06, 2018, 12:08:19 PM
a bit back on topic, i've been thinking to include a 36 hour fast every 2 weeks

How well do you think that will go with all the heavy training you do? When I skip meals my strength takes a hit really fast. And I don't even go as heavy as you do.  :ahhh

But then again I was always skinny so there is maybe a difference in how my body reacts to fasting. Though when I am a little older and the strategic energy reserves start to pile on I will also consider not eating every day because I think that will be easier for me compared to actually watching what I eat every single day...  :D
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pt Offline pfrsantos

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #27 on: July 06, 2018, 12:24:11 PM
a bit back on topic, i've been thinking to include a 36 hour fast every 2 weeks

Wish I had your willpower...

 :salute:

Show content
The best I can do is a 2 hour fast every 36 weeks!

 :facepalm:
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It is just a matter of time before they add the word “Syndrome” after my last name.

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I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

Eff the ineffable, scrut the inscrutable.

IYCRTYSWTMTFOT



mc Offline Gerhard Gerber

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #28 on: July 06, 2018, 12:42:52 PM

finally, no, potatoes are not a good carb in any way for this approach,

they're not good for LCHF because they are basically carbs, low fiber, have a big GI, a huge GL,  :ahhh and are quickly and easily digested and absorbed thus spiking your blood sugar immensely  :P

they're not good for fasting either because their easily absorbed carbs will lead to a rapid hormonal response (insulin secretion), they will be immediately digested and stored as fat if not burned,  :-\ and soon you'll be hungry again, your energy levels will drop,  :( and the few food you will have eaten in between fast will be barely nutritious (potatoes are really low in nutrients compared to almost any other vegetable, fruit, nightshade or plant  based food)  :facepalm:

Just my two cents on it,
there are hundreds of more nutritious, adequate and natural carbohydrates to eat instead of potatoes in between fasting periods, and in a LCHF diet  :tu:

 :salute:

I just need to qualify......yes, nothing fattens me up like potato, but at least I don't have an allergic reaction to it like all things bread........

You hit the nail on the head......my one goal is to (further) even out the bloodsugar lows & spikes.

I suspected it's a leftover from when I still smoked (heavily for 17 years)......now I have a way to fix it.

a bit back on topic, i've been thinking to include a 36 hour fast every 2 weeks

Over a weekend?
Had the same thought.....but I honestly believe that would only be possible once I get away from this horrible suck-face corporate bs job  :facepalm:


mc Offline Gerhard Gerber

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Re: Fasting........
Reply #29 on: July 06, 2018, 12:44:22 PM

How well do you think that will go with all the heavy training you do? When I skip meals my strength takes a hit really fast. And I don't even go as heavy as you do.  :ahhh

But then again I was always skinny so there is maybe a difference in how my body reacts to fasting. Though when I am a little older and the strategic energy reserves start to pile on I will also consider not eating every day because I think that will be easier for me compared to actually watching what I eat every single day...  :D

According to them, once you've adapted you'll have that energy.....at the right time.


 

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