Fasting........

[Gerhard Gerber]

Problem is currently I'm 133kg, so I know I can drop 30kg's and feel much better......

(Image removed from quote.)

Fat, within limits, makes you strong. Not sure if "strong" is the right word.......more destructive seems right 

[lister]

I think it does. What I noticed is that people that are a bit on the heavy side gain strength and muscles faster than us skinny smurfs.

[Syncop8r]

It's called weight training. 

[Don Pablo]

Bulking and cutting?

[Gerhard Gerber]

It's called weight training. 

Nope.....not that 

I think part of it is simple physics, if you're throwing a punch there's just much more weight being accelerated, impact is greater.

No really the idea, but the last rugby game I played was also the first in decade since quitting  age 15, opponent made a hospital-pass to a team mate right in front of me, I ran into him and sent him flying 

Not surprising, but what stuns me is the degree of speed and agility you regain when loosing a lot of weight. 
I have a cousin taller than me, and he held the U/18 100m and 200m national record from age 16, only broken several years later.

Only time I ever felt that speed was when I dropped to 105kg.

Also had my last brawl about that time......broke both my hands and his face, so I guess I don't need the weight 

[styx]

well my next goal is to hit 90kg. about 98kg currently on me. the more serious problem is that i can't really cut calories drastically during the summer as that coupled with the heat tends to drain me

[Gerhard Gerber]

 
I would rather not put a number on it.....

If I'm perfectly honest the only thing that ever motivated serious weight loss was a woman.....that's not going to happen again.

Forcing myself to go walk in the mountains seem to work even when I'm fat, so that's not motivation anymore.

LCHF because how good HF tastes 

[ThePeacent]

Problem is currently I'm 133kg, so I know I can drop 30kg's and feel much better......

(Image removed from quote.)

Fat, within limits, makes you strong. Not sure if "strong" is the right word.......more destructive seems right 

Fat is the main regulator and activator of hormones. Absent fat, people generally have greater hormone imbalances, loss of hormone production and low hormone levels of testosterone, growth hormone, leptin, ghrelin, serotonin and adrenaline.

An additional layer of fat, without impeding function of the organism, (ie. obesity, especially the morbid one), has many proven advantages:

- Better temperature regulation even in the heat, and retention of body heat (increased insulation)
- Lengthened life expectancy, especially on elderly stages
- Increased happiness, satisfaction and optimism linked to certain hormones that are high and abundant when there's a bit of excess fat in the body
- Cushioning, which results in better protection of bones and organs against fractures, crushing, impacts, bludgeoning, lacerations, cutting, and perforating/penetrating injuries. This doubles both as a survival strategy and in the modern world as a benefit in fighting, falling, or suffering injury
- Unless other diseases/ailments are present, fat aids in blood coagulation, fat in the body is related to reduced blood loss, proper blood density and clot formation
- Increased mass, which makes the muscles work more and be under more stress, which in time and combined with proper nutrition creates new muscular fibers and stronger, bulkier and bigger muscular mass, which is noticeable when weight loss occurs while keeping muscle mass (with weight training and other types of exercise)

and other benefits that I won't pint out now, because ar more dependant on other factors and the individual itself 

well my next goal is to hit 90kg. about 98kg currently on me. the more serious problem is that i can't really cut calories drastically during the summer as that coupled with the heat tends to drain me

you can try to increase a lot your non-caloric liquid consumption (water, tea, sugar free coke, Aquarius, Nestea etc., and black coffee with ice) to compensate for the heat and temperatures, while keeping your stomach full and "distracted" thus reducing your food input 

LCHF because how good HF tastes 

one of the common agreed properties that makes people like and adhere to a LCHF diet is that Fat, as opposed to other macronutrients, has the texture and taste that is more pleasant in the mouth  , and compared to CH and Protein, fatty foods are both tastier, their aftertaste lasts longer  and their digestion is the slowest of all  (fat is the nutrient that takes longer to digest) thus the satiety sensation is longer lasting than with other foods. 

Protein is the second slowest digesting nutrient (very close to fat) and often considered the most sating, but its relative price is the highest and high-protein diets are proven to be expensive and toxic in the long term 

In fact there is no animal in the world that basically feeds on protein (even the meat eaters, big carnivores and wild predators, they feed mostly on fatty meat pieces and big chunks of non-muscle tissue), they either prefer carbohydrates (herbivores and many others, omnivores too) or fat (big cats and felines, fish, birds) to comprise most of their caloric intake 

[styx]

water works only for a while

[Syncop8r]

Fat is the main regulator and activator of hormones. Absent fat, people generally have greater hormone imbalances, loss of hormone production and low hormone levels of testosterone, growth hormone, leptin, ghrelin, serotonin and adrenaline.

Very interesting.... so the best (healthiest) way to gain fat is..... to eat fat?

[Don Pablo]

Fat is the main regulator and activator of hormones. Absent fat, people generally have greater hormone imbalances, loss of hormone production and low hormone levels of testosterone, growth hormone, leptin, ghrelin, serotonin and adrenaline.

Very interesting.... so the best (healthiest) way to gain fat is..... to eat fat?

As opposed to eating too many carbs and protein? 

[Syncop8r]

Fat is the main regulator and activator of hormones. Absent fat, people generally have greater hormone imbalances, loss of hormone production and low hormone levels of testosterone, growth hormone, leptin, ghrelin, serotonin and adrenaline.

Very interesting.... so the best (healthiest) way to gain fat is..... to eat fat?

As opposed to eating too many carbs and protein? 

We know we can get fat by eating lots of sugar and carbs. Dunno about protein...

[ThePeacent]

Very interesting.... so the best (healthiest) way to gain fat is..... to eat fat?

As opposed to eating too many carbs and protein? 
[/quote]
We know we can get fat by eating lots of sugar and carbs. Dunno about protein...
[/quote]

not necessarily, but in most cases, it is.

A proper weight gaining diet should contain the three macronutrients in balanced percentages, but    protein is key to gain weight in the form of muscle (no other nutrient can build muscle fibers), which has to be supplemented with
carbs (to create the glycogen that will "fill" the space in between those fibers and "load" the muscle energy storage units) at the time that   
fat is also of the essence because it will permit the hormonal work to be done (fat-dependent hormones being the ones in charge of transforming the protein into muscle, and drive the energy from digested carbs to the cellular reserves, without proper levels of hormones these processes can't happen correctly  )

Excess of carbs in this case or in case of a normal person's diet and life will lead to storage as fat once the glycogen reserves are full (2000-2500kcal), generally being stored around specific sex-related aress (thighs and armpits in women, belly and neck in men),
excess of protein is harder to get to because of its toxicity and the thermic effect of protein and because it's excreted through the urine if there's too much of it, let alone its price and availability in common foods,
excess of fat is stored as fat once there is an excess of carbs already, and the glycogen reserves are full, (giving you a wide calorie margin before you reach that point) and also once your body has enough fats already to do its hormonal and cognitive functions with the fat reserves, which can take lots of fat and large mount of fatty acids before you're "full of them".

Finally, carbohydrates have the least filling effect on the human body, both physical (digestion speed, thermic effect...) and psychological (lack of flavor, lack of texture, blood spikes with consequent blood sugar depletion and hunger feeling, dizziness, cravings etc.).
Fats and proteins are more filling in the short term, better at the long term in regulating blood sugar and hormonal "hunger", and have it harder to be eaten in excess and stored afterwards, for the reasons noted above 

All of this makes carbs the easiest, fastest, most uncontrolled and worst (in its effects on your body) way to gain weight,  if that answers your questions. Carbs in this case are mostly sugars, simple chain carbs, easily digested saccharides and starches and so on. 

TL;DR: Eating way too many of anything will make you fat, but eating way too many carbs over too many proteins or fats will make you fatter quicker, easier and in a more unhealthy and ill-addressed way    that will also be worse in its consequences and harder to revert/undo 

[Syncop8r]

Thanks for the explanation. 
I have a friend who has lost a lot of weight (unintentionally) and has possible hormonal and serotonin issues.

[ThePeacent]

Thanks for the explanation. 
I have a friend who has lost a lot of weight (unintentionally) and has possible hormonal and serotonin issues.

very likely,
in fact one of the reasons why people tend to lose so much weight unintentionally when they suffer from Depression is no only because they eat less and less often, but because of the hormone depletion they suffer, which sends signals to the body to:

a- Eat less
b- Not enjoy the already small amounts food you eat, it feels tasteless, joyless and boring
c- Not store the excess calories as fat, as insulin and other hormones that work in fat storage/energy reserve creation are in low levels and are also counterbalanced by other hormones released as a consequence to the depression

hopefully your friend is not going through that, best wishes if so  it can be a hard thing for that person and those who love him/her as well 

[pfrsantos]

I just lost 120 pounds!
 

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I broke up wityh my girlfriend...

 

[styx]

I just lost 120 pounds!
 

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I broke up wityh my girlfriend...

 

congrats. or condolences

[pfrsantos]

I just lost 120 pounds!
 

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I broke up wityh my girlfriend...

 

congrats. or condolences

A little bit of both...

 

[styx]

I just lost 120 pounds!
 

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I broke up wityh my girlfriend...

 

congrats. or condolences

A little bit of both...

 

well then I wish you both

[Syncop8r]

I just lost 120 pounds!
 

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I broke up wityh my girlfriend...

 

I thought you used Euros there, not pounds...

[Mechanickal]

I just lost 120 pounds!
 

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I broke up wityh my girlfriend...

 

I thought you used Euros there, not pounds...

Maybe his gf weighed 120 pounds?
Which means she was quite in shape...

[Syncop8r]

I was suggesting she was paid. 

[Mechanickal]

Didn't see it.
But good one!

[styx]

I just lost 120 pounds!
 

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I broke up wityh my girlfriend...

 

I thought you used Euros there, not pounds...

Maybe his gf weighed 120 pounds?
Which means she was quite in shape...

not if she was under 150cm tall

[ThePeacent]

I just lost 120 pounds!
 

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I broke up wityh my girlfriend...

 

I thought you used Euros there, not pounds...

Maybe his gf weighed 120 pounds?
Which means she was quite in shape...

not if she was under 150cm tall

stole my words 

[Nix]

Protein is the second slowest digesting nutrient (very close to fat) and often considered the most sating, but its relative price is the highest and high-protein diets are proven to be expensive and toxic in the long term 

In fact there is no animal in the world that basically feeds on protein (even the meat eaters, big carnivores and wild predators, they feed mostly on fatty meat pieces and big chunks of non-muscle tissue), they either prefer carbohydrates (herbivores and many others, omnivores too) or fat (big cats and felines, fish, birds) to comprise most of their caloric intake 

That may be a bit too general.

Most wild animals are relatively lean. And many predators don't get to eat much fatty protein. It is true that most predators will preferentially eat organ meats, which do have a higher fat content, and frequently, a high nutrient content.  Predators will often eat partially digested plant-based foods from the stomach and intestines of prey animals. So, they do get some carbohydrate that way.

But, there are humans, e.g. Inuit, who eat primarily protein and fat. Very little carbohydrate at all. And are very healthy....until they start eating a 'Western Diet' with lots of carbs.

Many people have demonstrated that it is possible to live quite nicely on just meat. Meat with some fat content. I'm not aware of anything that suggests pure protein becomes 'toxic' over time. A lack of essential fatty acids leads to nutritional deficiencies, but a high protein diet is not inherently problematic.

The early studies that led some people to think that protein might cause kidney issues came from force feeding rabbit high protein diets. Well, rabbits aren't designed to eat protein, and feeding rabbits an unnatural diet proved to be a problem.

But for humans, an all meat diet is not a problem as long as there is enough fat in the diet to meet nutritional requirements. The term "Rabbit Starvation" is an example of an all-meat diet that is so low in fatty acids that nutritional requirements aren't met.

Humans require 'essential' amino acids (proteins) and fatty acids (fats), but there is no carbohydrate requirement.

[ThePeacent]

When the time comes, I will start the thread (possibly tomorrow evening or Monday morning as we have people for all places and countries) but I thought this would be an appropriate first post for it, and an introduction to any newcomers to the subject. It's long winded, but if you want to go through it, here it is: 

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OK, so here we have it. If anyone wants to join, at any point, you're welcome here and feel free to post about your experience(s) with fasting, as well as any doubts or thoughts you have about it, questions, ideas, or personal accounts or from others.    Keep it respectful, please. 

And, this is not medical advice, any reasonings as to "why this happens" or "how do you explain this" can be asked and you'll be pointed out to where to do your own research, read on the subject, or you'll get your answer here 

The basics, of what you can and cannot do would be very simple:

You can:

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- Eat during the scheduled hours of the day that correspond to your fasting method
- Drink non-caloric drinks during the fasting hours, that is water, sparkly water, plain black coffee, tea [green, black, or white], and flavored water (with lemon drops, for instance) but not using any caloric add-on (sugar, cream, milk, alcohol, honey, etc. all these are out, only non-caloric sweeteners are allowed if you need the drink flavored or sweetened) 
- Furthermore, you must drink more because fasting naturally depleted your body fluids and causes greater water loss than any other "diet" or way of eating, but we won't get into why that happens here, ask if necessary 
- Exercise, work, play sports, do your hobbies and normal life. 

You can't:

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- Eat snacks, appetizers, binge eat (but you can binge watch TV or binge surf Mt.Org!  ) or drink juices, cappuccinos, nectars, smoothies, milk, alcohol or any caloric beverage during the fasting hours
- Eat or take in calories after or before your pre-scheduled eating windows 
- Overdo it, if you feel bad (not just hungry, a bit  bad tempered or somewhat light headed) or notice any issues stop it immediately and have common sense when feeling your own body's signals and feelings 
- Start fasting if you have a serious medical condition mostly related to diet (diabetes, hypotension, etc.). Consult your GP or doctor before starting fasting, or if you think it could negatively affect your health or interfere with your medication(s) 

any medication, pills, or substances you must ingest will have to be ingested during the eating periods, as many meds today contain glucose, dextrose, and other caloric substances which usually comprise most of the medicine's weight (cough syrup, gastric pills, etc.) 

Below, a brief approach to the most common (But not all) fasting methods that people use today:

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- IF: (intermittent Fasting) includes any fasting that follows a regular pattern of eating and non-eating hours that is repeated throughout the week, month or another time frame, for instance eat 6 hrs a day, stop eating during 18 hrs and then start eating again, the religious Ramadan would be a very common practiced type of IF (fasting from sun to sun, eating before the first sunlight and start eating again after the last ray of sunlight)

- ADF: (Alternate Day Fasting) is eating one day of the week, then not eating the whole next day, then eating again the third day, and fasting the entire fourth day and so on, in whatever order you choose (for instance eat on Sunday but not Monday, then eat on Tuesday etc. or viceversa)

- 2/7: That is fasting two days every week, no matter when, be it two days in a row (ex: not eating on Monday and Tuesday) or more commonly not eating on two different days of the week

- Prolonged fast: This is not eating for more than 48 hours straight, for example eating on Monday at 8AM and then fasting until 13PM of Wednesday. 72hrs or more fasting is included here. Even though people rarely fast for more than 48hrs, some do it for political beliefs, religious practices, health problems or other issues, but these kind of fasts generally require of close medical supervision and a controlled environment

One should never attempt this long of a fast without previous planning, medical advice, and preferably previous experience to fasting.   

Finally, some common things people feel and experience when fasting:

The not so pretty:

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- The first times and days are the harder, but if you're in good health your body adapts quickly and it becomes a non-issue. Like everything, it takes practice to be fully comfortable with it. You might feel weak or tired because of the loss of liquid (drink, drink!!) and electrolytes in the blood that come with the liquid loss [Na, K, Ca, Mn, Cu] (drink electrolyte drinks or do them at home with lemon, salts, etc., put salt in your food, etc.) 

- Hunger always comes in waves (it's the body's hormonal system functioning, the same in everybody), the idea is to ignore or overcome these waves with will power, distracting yourself or doing other stuff (keeping yourself busy) until it goes away. It will go away, and the more time you are at this the longer the time will be between them, and the lesser their effect and disturbance on you. The first 48 hrs are the worst, always.

- All of the above will be harder if you suffer from Diabetes or Pre-Diabetes or take certain medications that affect hormones (or have other ailments/diseases that cause hormonal abnormalities). If so, it is of prime importance that you talk to your doctor before attempting any fasting at all   

- The first days or weeks you'll probably be more bad tempered, susceptible and angry when you feel hunger, but this is also related to hormones (hunger = alert, due to our animal roots) and will even out or disappear after a while of fasting and getting used to it. Your self control will eventually become much better, stronger and can help you out in other aspects of life 

The somewhat pretty:

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with some time into fasting and practicing with this method,

- You will notice that your glucose levels (and insulin release, blood sugar spikes, etc.) improve with fasting and your hunger levels will be lower after a while, and the hunger "waves" or pangs will be reduced or will disappear, hard to believe until you experience it

- You will lose weight, if you compliment the fasting with a proper diet (that is, not eating junk food in your eating windows,  and learning to listen to your real hunger and body signals, not start eating just the minute you "can" and eat for 6 hours straight to engorge yourself until you're full, to "compensate" for all what you haven't eaten  ) and keep active, walking, working, etc. You can gain weight with fasting, too 

- You will be better at knowing when your body asks for food, and when you are just experiencing a hunger pang, cravings or desire to eat. If you're hungry but go for a walk, drink some water or engage in an activity and 15 mins later you are not consumed by a raving hunger, then you didn't really need to it back then when you thought you did  ). Thus you will be more proficient at regulating when, what ,where and why do you eat, without needing to run for a doughnut or interrupt what you are doing to eat something, be it work, a hobby or a fun trip 

- Your blood lipids (cholesterol, fatty acids, etc.) will improve especially if your diet is a proper, nutritious one during the time that you are eating. Your mood will even out as you learn to cope with hunger, which will be lesser and more controllable as you progress, and you'll feel more energetic and active if you get the proper food at the proper time, and combine it with controlled non eating periods

Final notes,

- if you fast, drink a lot!! Keep hydrated  and electrolytes are also key, sodium, potassium, etc.
- if you take meds or have medical conditions, ask your doctore before any of this!! 
- if you fast, you must take special care of your diet and what you eat when you do eat. Nourish yourself with real food! 
- if you fast, and you feel bad or are experiencing trouble or signs of it (blackouts, fainting, weird body movement, etc.) stop instantly and talk to our doctor!!!
- Normal things are feeling light, strongly tempered, hungry, a bit weak (the first times), pain in the stomach  (that's not real pain, but hunger signals, intense ones though  ) or even tired at times until you get used, but NOT normal is feeling ill, in pain, have crampings, or having extreme reactions (vomiting, diarrhea, etc.) 

So, after this long winded post, if you feel like it, welcome to this thread and join whenever you want or when you've answered your questions and want to give it a try! 

[Nix]

So you're going to start a fasting thread? I'm in!

[Syncop8r]

I thought this was the fasting thread.... 

[ThePeacent]

Protein is the second slowest digesting nutrient (very close to fat) and often considered the most sating, but its relative price is the highest and high-protein diets are proven to be expensive and toxic in the long term 

In fact there is no animal in the world that basically feeds on protein (even the meat eaters, big carnivores and wild predators, they feed mostly on fatty meat pieces and big chunks of non-muscle tissue), they either prefer carbohydrates (herbivores and many others, omnivores too) or fat (big cats and felines, fish, birds) to comprise most of their caloric intake 

That may be a bit too general.

Most wild animals are relatively lean. And many predators don't get to eat much fatty protein. It is true that most predators will preferentially eat organ meats, which do have a higher fat content, and frequently, a high nutrient content.  Predators will often eat partially digested plant-based foods from the stomach and intestines of prey animals. So, they do get some carbohydrate that way.

But, there are humans, e.g. Inuit, who eat primarily protein and fat. Very little carbohydrate at all. And are very healthy....until they start eating a 'Western Diet' with lots of carbs.

Many people have demonstrated that it is possible to live quite nicely on just meat. Meat with some fat content. I'm not aware of anything that suggests pure protein becomes 'toxic' over time. A lack of essential fatty acids leads to nutritional deficiencies, but a high protein diet is not inherently problematic.

The early studies that led some people to think that protein might cause kidney issues came from force feeding rabbit high protein diets. Well, rabbits aren't designed to eat protein, and feeding rabbits an unnatural diet proved to be a problem.

But for humans, an all meat diet is not a problem as long as there is enough fat in the diet to meet nutritional requirements. The term "Rabbit Starvation" is an example of an all-meat diet that is so low in fatty acids that nutritional requirements aren't met.

Humans require 'essential' amino acids (proteins) and fatty acids (fats), but there is no carbohydrate requirement.

all very true and valid points. 

For the Inuit diet and a carb-free (or almost) way of eating I really recommend reading "Why We Get Fat, And What to do About It" and "The Big Fat Surprise" to address exactly those points    Also reading on Vilhjalmur Stefansson and his experiments after meeting the Inuit raises interesting points and considerations regarding western Diet vs meat based diet 

And not contradictiomg your explanaton in any way, it is very true that:

a-Protein exclusive diets were tried on the inappropriate animals (mainly vegetarian ones) and the results cannot apply to human beings
b- If a high protein (or protein exclusive) diet can be considered toxic/dangerous to the human being is because of the lack of other nutrients, not because of protein itself or a inherent substance/component in the amino acids or as a result of their breakdown in the digestive system

That of course would also apply to a 100% carb or 100% fat diet not complemented with other minerals, micronutrients, vitamins etc. but realistically speaking it's impossible for any person to thrive and live on that kind diet, thus resulting in a toxic diet in any of the previous scenarios 

Carbs are the least important macronutrient as practically all they provide is energy,
proteins have the amino-acids and fats with their fatty acids are vital to dissolve and absorb many vitamins, and contain lots of minerals and other key substances. The only strongly beneficial nutrients related or present in carbohydrate rich foods are fiber, vitamins and minerals (mostly from plants and non refined grains) which sadly are lacking in most modern western diets, which only have refined, nutrient poor carbs 

So I don't see if or where are we contradicting ourselves in what has been posted,  but yes there's many misinformation spread all across the world and much bad has been done and said in the education and advertising of the American Diet and Nutrition in general in the last century   

but I fail to see what does that have to do with fasting more than it has to do with proper nutrition, a subject for another (or many other) threads