Questions from "Help of the Sages"

Douglas · **on:** July 16, 2018, 06:14:26 AM

The_Raven's "Help of the Sages" thread posed and interesting question resulting in verious answers. The basic question is what pliar based MT would make the best pocket carry. The _Raven had several specifics he wanted and most answeres were subjectively attempting to fulfil those specifics. In the end everyone seamed to agree on three primary MTs, the Rebar, the Wave, or the Spirit. This realy got me thinking, from a strictly fits the pocket prespective wich one comes out on top. So I very carefully took measurements of each. The measurements are length, width, thickness, and weight. Unfortunately I only have an OG Wave so this will only be accurate if considering an OG Wave. All measurements are in mm and grams.

So first the OG Wave
101 x 31 x 19 and 225g

Second the Rebar
101 X 34 x 16 and 187g

Third the Spirit
107 x 34 x 16 and 208g.

Next I took into consideration overall shape and it's affect on the cloth of the pocket with long term use. This section is not physicaly measurable thus I am recording only what I see as POSSIBLE concerns.

The Wave is overall well rounded, but has very angular raised edges along both OHO knife blades that could over time wear on the cloth. Overall very low pocket wear potential.

The Rebar handles when closed as they would be in the pocket are very well rounded, but the locking mechanisms protrude and are a stamped sheet metal as is the pliar end. The thin and protruding nature of the handles at pliar end to me are a concern and the protruding locking mechanisms seem to have snaging potential.

The Spirit handles are very well rounded and even the thinest portions are along the length and very smooth. The only area of concern for pocket wear is the inside edge of the file could be abrasive to the cloth, but that would be unlikely as it is on the inside of the handle and the cloth would be protected by the other tools.

If one were to take only these factors into consideration it is very close. With only this information at hand I would have a very hard time picking one decidedly over another. So I'll start a points system winner for each catagory will recieve 2 points, second place 1 point and well no points for third.

Overall Size by volume

54,944 cubic mm Rebar - 2 points

58,208 cubic mm Spirit - 1 point

59,489 cubicmm Wave - 0

Weight

187g Rebar - 2

208g Spirit - 1

225g Wave - 0

Pocket wear potential (subjective opinion based on shape and possible snag points)

Spirit - 2

Wave - 1

Rebar - 0

At this point standings are

Rebar - 4

Spirit - 4

Wave - 1

Later I'll break out the photos and look at tool lay out / load out, jaw configuration and opening width, handle splay and possibly a few more features. Please stay tuned and feel free to comment.

gerleatherberman · **Reply #1 on:** July 16, 2018, 06:23:02 AM

Very cool thread, Douglas!

jaya_man · **Reply #2 on:** July 16, 2018, 06:27:33 AM

Nice...

Poncho65 · **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2018, 11:46:22 AM

Can't wait to see what you get with the final results

Douglas · **Reply #4 on:** July 22, 2018, 12:24:47 AM

Chqapter II
Sorry it took a while longer to get back on this than anticipated. Had a crazy work week.
Last week we looked only at pocket fit factors, So for today we start looking at comfort factors and functionality (if I actually get to complete my measurements and thoughts).
First let's take a look at the pliar ergonomics To me there are three primary numericaly measurable factors for the usability of pliars.

1) overall length Handle tip to Pliar tip = reach
160 mm Spirit 2
158mm Rebar 1
157mm Wave 0
This one is so close it's realy hard to even consider it seriously.

2) Closed Handle Splay = agility of control for small objects
47mm Spirit 2
55mm Rebar 0
49mm Wave 1

3) Handle Splay Open = amount of force one can apply when handles are fully open
103mm Spirit 2
127mm Rebar 0
115mm Wave 1
I found this one surprising between the Rebar and Wave I thought they were closer.

Next we get into the Subjective side of the ergonomics, just how comfortable are they under preasure.
All three are easily usable with minimal "Hot Spots" but the Rebar dose come close to having hot spots when max force is being called for. The Wave is super comfortable due to the rolled sides and round cast hinge caps for the outside OHO tools. The Spirit is almost as comfortable as the Wave and it really was hard to decide between the two. I feel the Wave won out just because of the smothe rounding of the cast end caps.

Wave 2
Spirit 1
Rebar 0

Now to update the standings,

Rebar 5
Spirit 11
Wave 5

In the next chapter I plan to take a close look at the actual pliar head feature pros and cons and we may even get into the tool load out.
Please feel free to post your thoughts ( agree or disagree) and ideas for other areas to cover on these wonderfull tools

Old man Chris · **Reply #5 on:** July 22, 2018, 01:50:08 AM

I figured the Spirit would be a front runner , when you start assesing the capabilities of the different loadouts , things will get really interesting .

Nice work , would never have thought of crunching the numbers.

Chris

gerleatherberman · **Reply #6 on:** July 22, 2018, 01:59:16 AM

I'm not convinced on giving points for 3mm "reach" between the three tools.
Can you sell me on that point?

Otherwise looks good, but I think the Spirit will have a hard time in the plier head grading. I want to ask Victorinox, "you've obviously changed up these plier heads, why keep using the tiny cutters?" And "why keep using the softer steel? Maybe try a different hardening process?"

Old man Chris · **Reply #7 on:** July 22, 2018, 02:19:48 AM

Quote from: gerleatherberman on July 22, 2018, 01:59:16 AM

I'm not convinced on giving points for 3mm "reach" between the three tools.
Can you sell me on that point?

Otherwise looks good, but I think the Spirit will have a hard time in the plier head grading. I want to ask Victorinox, "you've obviously changed up these plier heads, why keep using the tiny cutters?" And "why keep using the softer steel? Maybe try a different hardening process?"

I think you will find that Victorinox made a canny descision , in re: their plier heads , their plier heads rarely break . They don’t , by design give you the same size cutter as a linesman plier , because they don’t want you overloading the plier head . Soft metal deforms a bit , rather than breaking . A multi with a minor divot in the plier head , is more usefull than a broken plierhead .

Chris

gerleatherberman · **Reply #8 on:** July 22, 2018, 02:33:33 AM

I understand the reasoning. However, that logic would have to use the assertion that a stronger plier head would break, at the same point a softer one would get damaged(I am including flattening of the teeth as well). But, the softer pliers will be damaged long before the harder steel would break or get damaged.
The little cutters are my biggest pet peeve about the Swisstools. I can almost..almost forgive it on the Spirit, but on the bigger SwissTool?

I am not even asking for Rebar sized cutters. Just something the size of Gerber's. I use wire cutters everyday, so chewing through wires like a piranha with the Spirit is a frustration.

Edit: typo..err

Douglas · **Reply #9 on:** July 22, 2018, 03:06:42 AM

I tend to agree that the 3mm difference is insignificant in most cases and very minor but the measurements dictated the points not the insignificance. I think the pliar head review may be very interesting as I will again try to use both numerical data as well as subjective data. Things could get interesting...

gerleatherberman · **Reply #10 on:** July 22, 2018, 04:23:17 AM

Since you lack a New Wave, here are a couple of quick comparisons:

Quick plier-only length check:
Spirit - 54.6mm
Rebar - 58.7mm
Old Wave - 57.8mm
New Wave - 58.6mm
* One thing to note: this would be more of what I would consider "reach". Combine that with the handle width beneath the pivot for practical "reach". This is just my opinion though.*

Cutter section (usable portion, including hard wire notch):
Spirit - 6.4mm
Rebar - 10.4mm
Old Wave - 6.7mm
New Wave - 9.2mm

I'm looking forward to reading your subjective observations. Your bias to SwissTools is understood for the most part, but it would be interesting if there were something about the other contenders that Vic could learn from in your opinion. I think though, that neither the wave or rebar will come close to the Spirit in your subjective opinion(you just have too much experience with the Vic tools compared to others. You know the nuances of the Swisstool and have learned every use of the toolsets on both Vic models). But, ya never know.

Edit: Typos

Douglas · **Reply #11 on:** July 22, 2018, 05:00:32 AM

I do realise my bias exists and I am trying to be as objective as possible and there are definately things coming that you might find surprising due to the 20 years I spent developing that bias toward the Swisstool. Thanks for the exceptional measurements and saving me some time making them myself.

gerleatherberman · **Reply #12 on:** July 22, 2018, 05:09:35 AM

I hope I didn't come off as critical, talking about biases.

Like I said, I am looking forward to the future posts. And you're welcome for the measurements. Please let me know if there are anymore I can take. I have all four tools out with calipers on hand. I actually was glad to see the Spirit had cutters close in size and style to the Old Wave. The cutters on the Spirit were longer than I had been picturing in my head. Still short, bit not too shabby.

Douglas · **Reply #13 on:** July 22, 2018, 07:08:18 AM

G-Man could you provide the reference points for starting and ending your measurements of the plier head length ie. center of plier pivot to tip, handle pivot to tip etc...? I don't have calipers but my ruler is coming out substatialy different and it could just be our use of reference points. I feel confident in my measurements to this point as they have all been in reguards to overall dimensions and are only rounded to the nearest mm, but I do not want to be providing ANY misinformation on measurable hard fact. I will take you up on your offer as the need for smaller measurements is just around the corner, but I will pm you for them. If you would like to make the already posted measurements on the new Wave and PM me, it could be included in the scoring for the measurement section. I just will not be able to score it in many of the objective hands on (touchy-feely) catagories. Your comment about biases is totaly accurate and I in no way took it as any thing other than pointing out the obvious that some who are new here may not know. I forgot to memtion it myself as I should have when undertaking such a comparison endeavor as this.

gerleatherberman · **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2018, 07:30:07 AM

Anything you need, Douglas!
I remeasured each and took photos with the caliper readings.
I checked for zero-point each time. Measured the top of the handle to plier tip. The left side caliper arm is flush with the pliers tip.
One thing to note: I've seen 1mm or 2mm variations in the older LM plier heads. My best guess is machining to correct plier shape. And I don't know if you Spirit cap-crimper head is the same length and shape as the basic one on my Spirit X.

Douglas · **Reply #15 on:** July 22, 2018, 08:05:43 AM

The only differance between the X and XBS as measurements go would be in the det cap crimper if it is included in the plier gripping area and it reduces the needle nose gripping area length. Now I need to know if you have found the same kind of QC issues in the newer LM plier heads or Vic tools in general, I have never observed those kind of differances in Vic products before.

gerleatherberman · **Reply #16 on:** July 22, 2018, 08:15:52 AM

I believe Victorinox, having already had a wonderful machining factory in place (from decades of SAK production), has always computer milled their plier heads to perfect dimensions on the SwissTools. I have never seen a photo of a new SwissTool or SwissTool Spirit with a slightly different plier tip (as the tip is the most obvious tell-tell of imperfect grinding).
The old LMs had machined pliers, but some required touch ups to even them out. The newer pliers seems to be better milled and ground (newer computer controlled), like the New Wave. The Rebar is machined on the sides, but the edges have the original cast finish(like the surge, st300, MUT, and Signal).
If anyone sees any errors in these observations, please correct me.

Syncop8r · **Reply #17 on:** July 22, 2018, 11:13:20 AM

Sometimes longer pliers is a disadvantage.

Sometimes bluntnose is what you want.

Oh and I appreciate you using mm.

ThePeacent · **Reply #18 on:** July 22, 2018, 03:46:59 PM

thanks GLBM and Doug for this thread and info, it is very interesting.

Re: a winner, I bet that other factors not measurable here play in, like having a dedicated OHO knife with you together with the tool which makes the Wave' OHO blades moot point in comparison to Rebar or Spirit

also, the ability to clip, lanyard or loose carry either has to be factored in,
carrying a corkscrew apart (for the Spirit), an ada`tpr (Rebar) or the bots and bit kit (Wave) has also weight here

Re: Victorinox's plier head tolerances, IIRC the documentary from national Geographic about it someone on the Vic department said their tolerances were 0.2 mm (one fifth of a millimeter) deviation at most from the established measurement, to be accepted by QC,

Old man Chris · **Reply #19 on:** July 22, 2018, 03:48:18 PM

At the end of the day , my dream multi would have a partially serated 154CM or S30V blade , Victorinox implements , and plierhaeds made by Knipex , suitably hard chromed . The blade would be OHO , it would have a removadle pocketclip by Leatherman . Oh and while we are dreaming in technicolor , screwdrivers by PBSwiss .

The thing that I find frustrating with multis , is the number of almosts , and near misses .

Chris

Douglas · **Reply #20 on:** July 22, 2018, 07:16:44 PM

Thanks everyone for chiming in and a big thanks to G-Man for all the measurements I'll be using today.
Today is a big day for this comparison. We look at the foundation of all three of these tools the PLIER HEADS specificaly.
First all three are very capable pliers (as MT pliers go, I'm with you Chris on forged vs cast but cast is what we have here)
So lets get started with some numbers
First
Tip size smaller finer point gets into tighter spaces and is better for detail work. Width and thickness.
2.6mm W x 2.1mm T OG Wave 2
3.8mm W x 2.0mm T Rebar 1
4.9mm W x 3.1mm T Spirit 0

Tip size larger blunt nose provides more grip at the tip and better control on difficult to move items with less chance of damage to gripped object or plier tip. Width and thickness.
2.6mm W x 2.1mm T OG Wave 0
3.8mm W x 2.0mm T Rebar 1
4.9mm W x 3.1mm T Spirit 2

Plier Griping area (the () shaped area) with pliers closed. Inside width and length.
4.6mm W x 10.4mm L OG Wave 1
3.8mm W x 12.5mm L Spirit 0 **
4.9mm W x 10.5mm L Rebar 2 **
**if Spirit XBS with cap crimper included then reverse Rebar and Spirit (Cap crimper very effectively adds to the gripper surface area of the "pliers" section) not included in final points totals

Needle Nose Gripping surface - length
22.9mm OG Wave 2
19.6mm Rebar 1
18.9mm Spirit 0

Over all opening distance Makes for being able to grip larger items. Tip to tip.
44.1mm Rebar 2
39.3mm OG Wave 1
34.1mm Spirit 0

Cutter section (usable portion, including hard wire notch):
6.7mm OG Wave 1
6.4mm Spirit 0
10.4mm Rebar 2

Replacable Cutters
Rebar 2
OG Wave 0
Spirit 0

So now for the points on just mumeric data.
Rebar 11
Spirit 2
Wave 7

This where I may surprise some, yes I LOVE my Swisstools (Spirit included) but I am in total agreement with the results of these numbers. Vic Step up the design of your Plier heads. A real home run would be forged with side cutters and a stripping notch at the top of the cutters 10, 12 or 14, just pick one.

The new running total standings are
Rebar 16
Spirit 13
Wave 12

Douglas · **Reply #21 on:** July 22, 2018, 08:11:24 PM

Now I'm going to look at actualy using the Pliers daily. This will be subjective to my experiance only. Please feel free to disagree and provide examples as to why.

All three open with about the same amount of ease, the tips all align very well and none of them have any side to side wobble so I'm not going to include any of those factors in the points. I just means both companies have good QC on these products.

So points will start with
#10 and #14 Copper stranded and nickle High temp stranded wire cutting (I work with and cut these almost daily)
#10
Rebar 2
Spirit 1
Wave 1
#14
Rebar 1
Spirit 2
Wave 2
I have never had a problem getting through #10 with any of the three but the Rebar cut just seems a little cleaner. I have however had the Rebar occasionally not cut all the strands on #14 and smaller.

Cutting through Larger than #10
Rebar 2
Wave 1
Spirit 0

Comfort of handles when a strong grip is required.
Rebar 0
Wave 1
Spirit 2

Amount of force that can be applied at the tip by squeesing the handles
Rebar 1
Wave 0
Spirit 2
This is realy due to three factors. First the Rebar dose have some minor (I stress minor) hot spot issues when appling a lot of force closing the handles. Second due to the design of the liner lock for the outside tools the Wave handles have quite a bit of undesirable flex and are prone to breaking just below the pivot attachment to the plier head. I know I broke three of them in one year all in exactly the same spot. It looks like this may have been somewhat addressed in newer versions but I can not say for certain as I do not have a newer version. Third the ergonomic design on the Spirit handles really reduces the handle splay thus easing the hand strain when repeatedly using them for a max grip on larger items.

Size of object that can be gripped
Rebar 2 By far the best
Wave 1 Almost as large as the Rebar but the Sharpness of the tip makes it inefective at gripping larger size objects
Spirit 0 Forget it...when compaired to the Rebar

Ability to manuver plier tip in tight spaces
Rebar 0 the base of the plier head can get in the way, Have the same problem with the newer Swisstools
Wave 2 narrow overall design and small tip size make getting that #14 wire into the terminal strip behind that fan a snap.
Spirit 1 Almost as good as the Wave and in some cases the 3mm differance in total tool length make it better, but the more narrow Wave tip wins out here.

So the totals for this place all three tools in a dead heat
Rebar 8
Wave 8
Spirit 8

New total scores of
Rebar 24
Wave 21
Spirit 20

Next I plan to start looking at tool load out. But that may be a few days away. It may be the most challenging part yet.

Old man Chris · **Reply #22 on:** July 22, 2018, 08:43:35 PM

Thank you for your keen observations . Most experience , is by it’s basic nature anecdotal . One seldom runs into an ad hoc feild problem , and gets three tools to go thru their paces . Kudos , Sir !

chris

The_Raven · **Reply #23 on:** July 23, 2018, 02:48:37 AM

I'm sorry I found this thread so late, but it has been an interesting read. It's teaching me a lot about multitools in general, and I love the very in depth analysis of these three. Way to go OP!

It would be interesting to see more of these threads (they probably exist and I just haven't stumbled on them)

Admittedly, the section on the "blunt nose" vs needle nose seemed a wash. Clearly, the one best in one would be worst in another, and the middle ground would stay middle. Maybe that should fall under another category of score based on use case (along with tool loadouts) This could add a differentiating factor of being able to say "MT X is better in this given scenario based on these numbers, and MT Y is better for this scenario." of course, I realize we've already seemed to limit it down to the usefulness of pocket carry, but besides that, many of these features would be very subjective to the situation one finds themselves in. So allowing such things that don't affect pocket carry or affect overall quality to affect the overall score could skew the final results, maybe?

. Just a thought from a noobie.

Can't wait to see the unfolding research being done. Great job again!

gerleatherberman · **Reply #24 on:** July 23, 2018, 02:55:16 AM

Douglas,
This is a very interesting read here! Very well done, sir!

I have to agree on ergos. Even from an objective view, the Vic has the best handle shape and lack of hotspots (as in, there are none) to be the most comfortable to use hard.
The wire cutters on the Rebar are great for thicker wire, indeed. The LM replaceable cutters are quite good for that and are something Vic should consider, if they don't want to use bigger cutters on the current plier head (for fear of abuse damage as a standing hypothesis).

I am looking forward to reading more, Douglas.

And yes, if Vic would make some forged pliers with flush side cutters, I'd pay big bucks for that.

Gerber is the only company that dipped their toes in those waters and ruined it with needless puffery (internal pivot spring load) and terrible QC. It would be cool if Vic, LM, SOG, and Gerber would release tools with that type of plier and do it right(no needless puffery and make it properly), they'd have a big seller for sure. Seems like it would be an easy thing for Victorinox to do, as they have the largest, most technologically advanced facilities of the four big brands.

Douglas · **Reply #25 on:** July 23, 2018, 04:36:24 AM

The-Raven,
You are spot on with your comments. Ultimately it boils down to multitools are a comprimise between features and what fits one job perfectly is just short on the next.
The best one can do is find what comprimise is most comfortable carriing daily and best fits the majority of scanerios one might encounter on any given day. My little foray into these three MTs is mostly just for fun and hopefully it will help some one not go into their purchase blindly.