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Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included? 857

Full Member Posts: 206
Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« on: September 12, 2018, 09:02:50 AM »
If I take a look at the backside of my favorite SAK, a Climber, I see the infamous multipurpose hook laying there. Even if I recognize its limited usability, I still like that it is there and in my humble opinion it is better than having nothing.
Why is it, then, that tools like the wood saw and the metal file, that offer the possiblity of an accessory tool on their backspring (fine screwdriver and chisel, respectively), only see the inclusion of said backside tool on bigger (5+ layers) SAK models?

Is this merely a cost-saving measure, or is there any other reason (construction, tool logic)?
I know that I, for one, would appreciate a wood chisel on the back of my Mountaineer.


Thread Killer 2017 No Life Club Posts: 4,565 Born to multitask.
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2018, 09:15:29 AM »
Also the nail-file on the hook that the Compact has. Why not put that hook on everything instead of the plain hook?  :think:
Hero Member Posts: 716
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2018, 09:29:09 AM »
If I take a look at the backside of my favorite SAK, a Climber, I see the infamous multipurpose hook laying there. Even if I recognize its limited usability, I still like that it is there and in my humble opinion it is better than having nothing.
Why is it, then, that tools like the wood saw and the metal file, that offer the possiblity of an accessory tool on their backspring (fine screwdriver and chisel, respectively), only see the inclusion of said backside tool on bigger (5+ layers) SAK models?

Is this merely a cost-saving measure, or is there any other reason (construction, tool logic)?
I know that I, for one, would appreciate a wood chisel on the back of my Mountaineer.

Well i for one am exactly the opposite, i like the flush plain middle springs on sak's over two layers, just looks good. Unless the tool going there is of terribly good usability (which its not really the case IMHO), for me its good just the way it is  :dunno:

"Another Day...; a whole n'other set of fresh possibilities..." - MacGyver (S1E19 - "Slow Death")
Full Member Posts: 179 Acknowledged blade-aholic who isn't seeking help.
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2018, 09:30:33 AM »
Cost savings is my best bet... It's much easier to assemble an SAK with fewer back layer tools. Not to mention the cost of producing the tools themselves. They also might not have a dedicated stamping machine for every tool, they may have to do changeovers to go from producing say, awls to producing chisels. If you do fewer changeovers on machinery, you save boatloads of time

"Have yourself a nice long rest and be back here in twelve minutes."
"All the good times, that's what I'll remember. I think there were three."
Full Member Posts: 194
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2018, 08:59:07 PM »
In the National Geographic documentary they say that newer assemblers are often trained with models with fewer layers, so it may also be that complicating the smaller models would make that learning curve too steep.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,057
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2018, 09:11:43 PM »
Also the nail-file on the hook that the Compact has. Why not put that hook on everything instead of the plain hook?  :think:

 :iagree:  It took me forever to find a Compact with the nailfile.  I've owned more of them that didn't have the file than did, and a Compact doesn't seem complete to me without it.

I also agree that the questions we have here are correctly answered by dkop1.  Cost savings.

- Terry

Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me...
Full Member Posts: 206
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2018, 12:04:49 AM »
If it is indeed cost saving, what is the reasoning behind putting them on larger (5+ layers) models? Why not cutting corners with these, but only on slimmer models?
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,057
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2018, 12:10:34 AM »
I would suspect that it's because many more of the smaller SAKs (less than 4-5 layers) sell than the larger ones, so Victorinox can keep a higher profit margin on the models that sell well.

 :dunno:
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 12:11:47 AM by NutSAK »

- Terry

Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me...
Full Member Posts: 179 Acknowledged blade-aholic who isn't seeking help.
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2018, 06:46:57 AM »
If it is indeed cost saving, what is the reasoning behind putting them on larger (5+ layers) models? Why not cutting corners with these, but only on slimmer models?
Probably to keep the price even lower on slimmer models. As much as I like the chisel, fine screwdriver, etc. I nearly never use them. The price tag on a brand new climber, super tinker, camper, etc.  is very appealing (at least in the US) Why add 5 US dollars or more to it if on such tools it's not very popular?     Just about any working class person I know could shell out 25-35 bucks for a respectable pocket knife if they need one. Thus a 3-4 layer SAK is affordable and attractive.  once you step into the 5+ layer models the price jumps up pretty quick. High enough (and they're bulky enough) that  the only people I know that would buy them are people who A: collect them, like us :D B: want and need a very specific toolset in their pocket knife, or C: think that knife is  cool and have the disposable income to justify buying it.

It's much like any other consumer good, the maker has to cater not only the features, but also the cost, to it's target audience.

"Have yourself a nice long rest and be back here in twelve minutes."
"All the good times, that's what I'll remember. I think there were three."
Hero Member Posts: 850
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2018, 07:52:25 AM »
I now have 2 different SAKs with wood saws, the 3 layered Hiker and the 4 layered Huntsman. Part of it would also have to be tool accessibility. It might work on the Huntsman as the Scissor/Hook layer is between the Saw and the Opener/Awl layers, still giving enough room to get to the Awl nail nick. On the Hiker, however, the Awl and Chisel would be right next to each other so I doubt you would be able to deploy the Awl.
Full Member Posts: 179 Acknowledged blade-aholic who isn't seeking help.
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2018, 08:03:15 AM »
I now have 2 different SAKs with wood saws, the 3 layered Hiker and the 4 layered Huntsman. Part of it would also have to be tool accessibility. It might work on the Huntsman as the Scissor/Hook layer is between the Saw and the Opener/Awl layers, still giving enough room to get to the Awl nail nick. On the Hiker, however, the Awl and Chisel would be right next to each other so I doubt you would be able to deploy the Awl.
agreed! My ranger is difficult to access the back layer tools

"Have yourself a nice long rest and be back here in twelve minutes."
"All the good times, that's what I'll remember. I think there were three."
No Life Club Posts: 1,137 Ride the Music
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2018, 10:45:53 AM »
Bring back the LONG nail file.

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk


R
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,057
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2018, 03:53:02 PM »
Bring back the LONG nail file.

Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk

 :iagree:

- Terry

Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me...
Full Member Posts: 206
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2018, 04:21:20 AM »
I now have 2 different SAKs with wood saws, the 3 layered Hiker and the 4 layered Huntsman. Part of it would also have to be tool accessibility. It might work on the Huntsman as the Scissor/Hook layer is between the Saw and the Opener/Awl layers, still giving enough room to get to the Awl nail nick. On the Hiker, however, the Awl and Chisel would be right next to each other so I doubt you would be able to deploy the Awl.

Oh, that actually makes a lot of sense!  :tu:
I wonder if the chisel right next to the awl would prevent its opening as well?

Could someone that owns a Ranger (or Handyman) post a picture of the knife backside, that shows the tools nail nicks disposition?
Full Member Posts: 145
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2018, 11:21:10 AM »
Could someone that owns a Ranger (or Handyman) post a picture of the knife backside, that shows the tools nail nicks disposition?

Here's the back of a Handyman.

I've owned a Swisschamp and have two Handymanscfvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv89xc [thanks for jumping on my laptop, Federico! ::)] and have always found the chisel and fine SD to be the hardest tools to open. Opening the corkscrew gives much better access to the chisel's nick; and opening the chisel makes it a little easier to open the fine SD.

I've used the chisel just once in over a year, and I was grateful to have it. Thus I regard it as a "nice to have", but not essential, tool. Worth having a SAK with it, I reckon.

I've never used the fine SD. For a long time I didn't even know what it was! The fine SDs on my (used) Handymans both arrived with twists at the tips, one quite bad. The liners were OK. I straightened both SDs easily with two adjustable spanners. This suggests to me that the tool can't handle much torque.

Between this and that.
Full Member Posts: 206
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2018, 03:40:57 AM »
Thanks Sawl, that's really helpful!  :cheers:

Do you feel like the chisel's nick is more accessible on the Handyman rather than on the Swisschamp (that is, with a Phillips next to it rather than a CS), or is it the same?
Also, does it look like a fine SD right next to the awl (with no scissors layer between them) would interfere with the access to the latter's nail nick? What about the chisel right next to the awl?
Sorry for the many questions, but I currently don't have a knife with those backside tools, so I can't check this myself.
Full Member Posts: 145
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2018, 11:18:15 AM »
Thanks Sawl, that's really helpful!  :cheers:

Do you feel like the chisel's nick is more accessible on the Handyman rather than on the Swisschamp (that is, with a Phillips next to it rather than a CS), or is it the same?
Also, does it look like a fine SD right next to the awl (with no scissors layer between them) would interfere with the access to the latter's nail nick? What about the chisel right next to the awl?
Sorry for the many questions, but I currently don't have a knife with those backside tools, so I can't check this myself.
You're welcome! It's a pretty poor picture so I'm happy you find it of any use. :)

The back side tool order is the same on both the Handyman and Swisschamp: corkscrew, then chisel, then fine SD, then hook. On the Handyman, there's a one layer gap (pliers) between the hook and the awl; this gap is two layers wide (pliers + Phillips/magnifier) on the Swisschamp. Also on the Swisschamp, I think, but am not sure, that there's a one layer gap between the fine SD and the hook, created by the fish scaler.

I imagine the Ranger's tool pattern follows the same order as on the Handyman, minus the pliers gap. So it will have tools on every layer. Corkscrew, chisel, fine SD, hook, awl.

The Craftsman has the back side Phillips; the Swisschamp has the corkscrew. I don't have a Craftsman to see if you can open the chisel more easily, sorry.

But again, I think you'd awlways find it easier to open the chisel if you open the CS first. :tu: 

Funny (or tragic), but it's only now that I understand why the fine SD is awlways so hard to open: it's because the nick is a little closer to the pivot than on the chisel, so you have less leverage. You can see it in the picture, and it really does make a difference.

If you feel you need the chisel and and don't mind adding the wood saw/fine SD layer to your Mountaineer, consider buying a Ranger. :)  Or go the whole way and get a Swisschamp! :D

Sorry for awl my words. I hope things are a little clearer than mud!

Between this and that.
Newbie Posts: 11
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2018, 02:42:38 PM »
I'm in that "want a chisel but don't need a fine screwdriver" club. I found the Troubleshooter to be the perfect balance. It's a Craftsman, minus the wood saw / fine screwdriver layer.

I do miss the wood saw sometimes, but if I was going to upsize, I'd probably go Handyman, for the CS/mini SD combo.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,057
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2018, 10:02:36 PM »
If you feel you need the chisel and and don't mind adding the wood saw/fine SD layer to your Mountaineer, consider buying a Ranger. :)  Or go the whole way and get a Swisschamp! :D

Or, meet halfway and find a good used Champion.

The Ranger has just about the best tool density of any Cellidor SAK.

- Terry

Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me...
Newbie Posts: 22
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2018, 10:07:58 PM »
Good to know both the wood saw and the metal file don't have tools.

Not being a fan of any back tools I wish they'd have versions where there were none at all
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 9,612
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2018, 10:36:29 PM »
Good to know both the wood saw and the metal file don't have tools.

Not being a fan of any back tools I wish they'd have versions where there were none at all
They call those "alox" :pok:


Buy now or regret later
Zombie Apprentice Posts: 11,838 Hidalgo, Castillo del Hook
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2018, 10:44:38 PM »
Good to know both the wood saw and the metal file don't have tools.

Not being a fan of any back tools I wish they'd have versions where there were none at all
They call those "alox" :pok:


It's a pity they don't make alox with any of the good tools.  :rofl:

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

All hail the hook!

Small knives can do what big knives do, just slower.

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Newbie Posts: 22
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2018, 12:50:54 AM »
which alox model comes with a metal file and wood saw?
No Life Club Posts: 1,851
Re: Chisel and fine screwdriver: why are they not always included?
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2018, 01:47:17 AM »
which alox model comes with a metal file and wood saw?

With the exception of an Alox-scaled (so far, this has been the one and only Alox 91mm) Master Craftsman made for the Dutch Air Force many, many years ago, no standard Alox model has had a metal file on it. 
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 02:01:15 AM by cody6268 »

 

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