Modding a SAK 111

[dvd8n]

Inspired by this forum I'm halfway through modding my SAK 111 to a bladeless.

So I've disassembled it and I've got it all the layers sorted out as standard before I rearrange them.

I have a question though; I was surprised by the variations in the designs of the layer separators.  I can understand cut outs for the likes of corkscrews but I don't understand why some have cutouts in what would be the interior of the knife.  I also don't see why the metal thicknesses vary. 

I feel that I ought to understand this before I start rearranging the layers.

David

[hiraethus]

This thread any good to you?
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,48172.0.html

[dvd8n]

Thanks, that was a really interesting thread - I don't know how I missed it.

But it doesn't really andwer my questions.  Like, why is one edge liner a really flimsy piece of contoured metal?  The first thing that I has to do on disassembly was to take all the dings and dents out of it with a hammer.  It had some significant bends in it just from living in my pocket.

I had considered swapping a thicker piece from the middle into it's place (I'll have an extra one when I'm finished) but I don't know if it's a good idea.  I mean, it must have cost Victorinox money to make a unique stamping for that side so there must be a good reason for it.

 

[hiraethus]

I've not carried a 111mm knife much, but I've never had much of a problem with dents and damage to the liners of any other SAK while it's been in my pocket.  What dings and dents do you mean?  The liners are contoured for tool clearance on one side... Pics of what you're looking at might help.

[Don Pablo]

It can be tricky to disassemble or assemble a SAK without bending the liners.
I should know.
When lifting a liner up, do not apply uneven pressure or it will bend.

And when pushing a liner down on the pins, a flat piece of wood with holes for the pins can help apply even pressure.

[dvd8n]

Ok, I have attached a photo of the layers.

From left to right the liner / separator thicknesses are 1mm, 1mm, 1mm, 1mm, 0.7mm, 0.7mm.  You can see the differences in shapes and thicknesses which seem arbitrary.  You can also just about see the contouring on the right hand liner.  It was this piece that I had to flatten which I needed to do carefully to avoid flattening the contouring.  It looked like stuff in my pocket was getting jammed between the scale and liner - not enough to pop the scale off but enough to bend the metal. 

[Don Pablo]

The stamped contouring is required because A, not all tools are same thickness, and/or B, it stops the tools rubbing in the wrong places.
What do you keep in your pocket? 

[dvd8n]

I think that the internal notch in liner 2 and 3 is to let the slightly bulbous Philips driver sit without interference.  I can't think why it's there in liner 5 too, though, It can't be to reduce costs through parts commonality as it's thinner than the others and has no lock slot.  It's a unique piece.  And why the right hand liner is so thin is beyond me.

[dvd8n]

The stamped contouring is required because A, not all tools are same thickness, and/or B, it stops the tools rubbing in the wrong places.
What do you keep in your pocket? 

It's all perfectly normal stuff in my pockets.  Some people have questioned the mini crowbar but it seems perfectly normal to me..............

[dvd8n]

Anyway, I think that I'll stop trying to second guess this stuff and just keep the layers in stock order as much as possible.

I'm thinking of removing the blade and moving either the saw or nail file down to replace it.  I can't decide whether to keep the slide lock or remove it.  But the pivot area of those tools is slightly different to that of the blade so I may need to reshape the base to make the lock work if I decide to keep it.

[dvd8n]

Got it finished.

I moved the saw blade into the knife blade position in the end, for no good reason really.  It could just as easily have been the nail file.  It was an arbitrary decision.

I was going to reprofile the pivot area of the saw blade so that the lock still worked but in the end I decided against it, for two reasons.  Firstly, it worked fine as a slip joint with zero work.  Secondly, I was worried that I would have to take so much material off the joint that I would lose tension in it and the corkscrew.  So, no lock.

I have temporarily put the old scales back but with the spring removed from the button.  The button rattles a bit but it fills the hole.

Longer term I'll get new scales without the button.  Does anyone know if the linerlock scales will work?

[Don Pablo]

 

[dvd8n]

Thanks.  I have loads of reference photos that I took that I can post if there's any interest but I didn't want to without interest as it's an obsolete model so the usefulness will be limited.

[AimlessWanderer]

Nice job 

As to liners, I've been giving them a lot of thought recently too. There's commonality, and minimising stock inventory and press tooling, but also to balancing of weight, strength, and material costs.

I haven't studied this, so what I'm about to say may be totally wrong, but I've been thinking through how I would go about choosing shape and thickness, if I was designing them myself.

Wider layers, potentially have greater unsupported pin lengths, and may require a more substantial liner flanking them. Likewise, a layer with a tool that would be subject to torque (driver, and possibly pliers) might need more support to prevent the two halves of the knife from crabbing in your hand as you twist it. A thinner layer which doesn't need a twisting action, such as a file or saw, might be fine with a thinner liner, unless its neighbour is one of the wider or torque prone layers.

Again, with the torque in mind, I think a slimmer build such as a Yeoman, might be more rigid and need less robust liners than for example a Swisschamp with the same driver, as there's less leverage from the axis of the driver, to the outer edge of the scale.

As I say, this is all purely speculative.

[dvd8n]

It was subjective, but I did think that the thicker liners seemed way stiffer than the thin ones; way more than I would have expected from the extra 0.3mm thickess.

[AimlessWanderer]

It was subjective, but I did think that the thicker liners seemed way stiffer than the thin ones; way more than I would have expected from the extra 0.3mm thickess.

That 0.3mm is only a 43% increase in thickness, but it equates to just over double the section modulus of the 0.7mmm piece (that axis gets squared in the calculation) - so basically, double the rigidity if the rest of the dimensions are the same 

[hiraethus]

Take a look at the 91mm liners.  The thickest ones are those next to the pliers and cybertool layers - these are for tool clearance as much as added strength.  The ones next to the philips are a little thinner, and the rest are thinner still.  The liners on a Cadet are only 0.4mm thick (I think) but are made from nickel silver which is stiffer and stronger than brass.

[dvd8n]

Victorinox are obviously putting a lot more thought into the design of the liners than I thought.  But the fact that the first thing that I had to do on disassembly is hammer one of them flat shows that they are not always right.

Then it struck me.  I had a look at a 91mm knife; specifically the pivot area.  In most places the liners overhang the tool pivots by about 1.5mm.  The biggest was 2mm; a few of them were actually flush.  On my 111mm a 6mm overhang is normal.  I guess it gives extra support when the tools are open but on the other hand it's not surprising that I'm managing to bend the thinner liners.

To be honest it's not really a big problem; the knife has lived in my pocket daily for ten years with minimal damage.  But, on the whole I'd have gone for the thicker liners throughout and accepted the tiny weight penalty.

(By the way, if you look really hard at the bottom of the black 111mm, you can still see a small gap between the liner and the scale where I did not quite get it flat.  I'll tweak it slightly with pliers when I put new scales on it.)

[dvd8n]

Eeeeeew, that 91mm needs a clean when you look at it close, doesn't it?   

[Don Pablo]

Eeeeeew, that 91mm needs a clean when you look at it close, doesn't it?   

Probably. 

[sir_mike]

So say you had an Outrider, could you add the plier's AND move the other end tools around or whatever to also add in the mag lens?

[dvd8n]

Well I'm far from being an expert, but I'll have a go at answering.

If you have access to the parts of the layer containing the pliers then I don't see why you couldn't add them to the Outrider.  If you don't then you'd need to buy a parts donor.  The cheapest would be a Hercules, so why not just carry that?

The magnifying glass is interesting as I'd thought about it as it's the one tool that I really miss from my 91mm.  This is the grey plastic magnifier.  I really didn't want to strip it from my 91mm, but if I did I'd be struggling to find a spot to put it in on the 111mm.  The layer that the magnifier is on is a thick one at 2.7mm so I don't think that it would be happy on the bottle/can opener layer.  The closest in thickness is the scissor layer; I'd need to lose the scissors and maybe the philips too as I don't know if the glass would sit with the screwdriver.  It definitely wouldn't nestle with the scissors.

I don't know how happy you'd be to lose the scissors; I wouldn't as it's probably the tool that I use the most.

[dvd8n]

Actually it's just occurred to me that the Wenger magnifier is steel and may be slimmer.  I'd like to have a go at mounting that, but not enough to buy one of the models that have them to strip it out for parts.  They aren't the cheap models 

[dvd8n]

I'm in a moral dilemma now.

I remembered that my father in law had a swiss army knife; I had a look and blow me if it wasn't a Wenger with the steel magnifier.

It looks like it's 2.5mm thick so would swap in to a saw or file layer quite nicely, assuming the pivots are compatible.

Now, it's not strictly my knife; I guess that it's strictly my wife's.

My wife's away for the weekend; I could take the layer out when she's away and she'd never know.  But women are funny and sentimental about these things.  Life's hard when you have no moral compass.   

[Don Pablo]

NO! 

Better to try making the Vic magnifier thinner (not sure if possible) or getting another Wenger.

[Simyo]

Definitely don’t chop the Wenger, just get one off of the bay and save yourself the lonely nights on the sofa.  As far as more ideas on your build, if you use a liner lock model than there are no underside tools on the blade layer and the corkscrew is on the saw layer.  You can remove the blade layer and include the other tools from the other build.  If you keep the newer bottle opener you may be able to lose your pribar too.  The downside is they used different pivot sizes, so the old tools may have to be drilled out.  But you would have scales that don’t rattle.

[dvd8n]

Definitely don’t chop the Wenger, just get one off of the bay and save yourself the lonely nights on the sofa.  As far as more ideas on your build, if you use a liner lock model than there are no underside tools on the blade layer and the corkscrew is on the saw layer.  You can remove the blade layer and include the other tools from the other build.  If you keep the newer bottle opener you may be able to lose your pribar too.  The downside is they used different pivot sizes, so the old tools may have to be drilled out.  But you would have scales that don’t rattle.

Just noticed this reply.  The problem is, being in the UK, ebay refuse to sell knives because of bad publicity from a consumer affairs TV program.  So getting cheap raw materials means visiting car boot sales or junk shops.  But you are probably right; I'll keep my eye open for a cheap Wenger.