With restoration, are you really getting your old tool back?

[dks]

I was reading a thread in the SAK subforum, where there was talk of restoration, where the blades, tools and scales would potentially be replaced, meaning that only the main body of the knife would be the original (unless that was also replaced).

I have also seen vintage car videos where they basically take a piece of rust, cut and weld and end up with a 90% different/new car, with possibly just the serial number to connect it with the original car.

You also have people complaining about knives/tools losing their sentimental value when the old blades are replaced, sometimes under warranty, by the manufacturer.

Is something that has mostly new parts but still has a small part of the original really the original, in spirit?

Lets not forget Trigs' broom:
“I’ve maintained it for 20 years.  This old broom has had 17 new heads and 14 new handles in its time.”  (But he considers it the same original broom..)

Any thoughts?

[ThePeacent]

Any thoughts?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus 

[dks]

Abstract?

[Smashie]

It's a tough question that, I retire tools that are going to get worse if I carry on using them, my car needs a lot of work doing to it but it isn't a classic so I have no problem with replacing bits.

This belongs to my friend and he struggled with the same question, so as much as possible were original parts restored. Some parts you just can't get for them.

[Mechanickal]

Though one indeed.

I have a Vic Alumnus that was busted up.
Vic kept everything original apart from the knifeblade (which was truely unusable), the scissors backspring and the scales.

I have the same feeling of it not being "legit" even though it's the same tool... apart of those alterations.
I would've feeled better if they had a blade with period correct tang stamp, but sometimes you just can't refurb something without new parts.

It is, however, an Alumnus, constructed by Vic...

[AimlessWanderer]

Good thread! 

If I sent off a knife to be overhauled with new parts, it wouldn't be the same knife in my mind. However, I wouldn't mind overhauling it myself, even with newer parts, because that would be a continuity in my own personal timeline.

Like some folks track down their birth year Soldier, earlier this year I got a birth quarter double edge razor. Most of the ones made when I was (Gillettes with date stamp) were made in the US, and the only model made in Britain has a crappy plastic handle. I'll be turning a buffalo horn handle for it to spice it up a bit, but wouldn't have got that razor if someone else had already done that. I restored the edge on my old Sheffiled straight razor, and wouldn't be bothered about one someone else had done.

I have a friend who restores vintage cars (1930s era), and he tries as hard as possible to source original parts, but some things need making from scratch, and it just doesn't quite capture the ethos in my mind.

Some of the historical places in Sheffield still have waterwheels, as that was how the City got its foothold in the industrial world, but seeing refurbished waterwheels at some of those places just doesn't quite seen right, even though stuff that looks like it's in need of restoration won't necessarily be original either.

[Butch]

Not trying to be mean spirited in any way, but other than maybe family heirlooms & collectors, does this question have any real world meanings. To me, other than the afore mentioned, it does not. If I just want a Vic Swisschamp, as long as Vic does the work & supplies the parts I'm happy.

[Poncho65]

I guess one could go with the theory that if at least half of it is original then perhaps it could still be considered the same Guess it is more a case by case thing but my brother in law has restored quite a few corvettes over the years and to get original parts has costed him lots of money but he has more of an original when finished than just buying new parts good question and thread

[Tomcat_81]

I guess it depends upon what YOU think. If you regard it as your old tool, even though almost nothing of it is still original, why shouldn't you?

I recently gave up on ( at least a little part of ) my smartassyness when it comes to prized heirlooms (random guy, wields Vic from the 80s : "this was the pocket knife of my great-grandpa who died in 1960"  me: "Oh, nice!" ).

Otherwise: How about the 50% rule?
Tomcat

[SteveC]

Good discussion and I thought hard about it before I rehabbed my original PST.

original thread here

https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,76337.0.html

I still consider it my original PST , other people might think otherwise but I don't give a smurf what they think 

[Butch]

Good discussion and I thought hard about it before I rehabbed my original PST.

original thread here

https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,76337.0.html

I still consider it my original PST , other people might think otherwise but I don't give a smurf what they think 

Bravo, a man after my own heart.

[Don Pablo]

Like Al, I think the continuity rule applies.

[McStitchy]

I'm with Steve. Every tool, machine etc. that's been used will need some maintenance and often parts replaced too. As long as the parts work the same way I'm fine with it.

Think about this... after around 7 years every cell of your body was replaced. Are you still in the same body then? 

[Mechanickal]

I'm with Steve. Every tool, machine etc. that's been used will need some maintenance and often parts replaced too. As long as the parts work the same way I'm fine with it.

Think about this... after around 7 years every cell of your body was replaced. Are you still in the same body then? 

Don't make me doubt my existance!

[Tomcat_81]

Think about this... after around 7 years every cell of your body was replaced. Are you still in the same body then? 

... yet large parts of bones and teeth are still "original".
Well, apart from that odd missing tooth in the left lower jaw that met that stone in the doughnut ten years ago... ;-)

[Don Pablo]

Think about this... after around 7 years every cell of your body was replaced. Are you still in the same body then? 

... yet large parts of bones and teeth are still "original".
Well, apart from that odd missing tooth in the left lower jaw that met that stone in the doughnut ten years ago... ;-)

Bones get replaced too.

[Syncop8r]

And blood is even quicker to be replaced. So if you receive someone else's blood you're only borrowing it for a little while until you remake your own.

[Tomcat_81]

Think about this... after around 7 years every cell of your body was replaced. Are you still in the same body then? 

... yet large parts of bones and teeth are still "original".
Well, apart from that odd missing tooth in the left lower jaw that met that stone in the doughnut ten years ago... ;-)

Bones get replaced too.

Woah, didn't know that - I'll value my teeth even more from now on!

[Mechanickal]

Unless you still have your kiddy teeth. They're being replaced once too!

[Tomcat_81]

slowly, I'm getting into the age when even those second teeth might get replaced. 

[McStitchy]

slowly, I'm getting into the age when even those second teeth might get replaced. 

That reminds me to an upcoming bill 

[Syncop8r]

Think about this... after around 7 years every cell of your body was replaced. Are you still in the same body then? 

Don't make me doubt my existance!

Mechy, you seem different today... not yourself....

[Mechanickal]

[Butch]

 

Ok call out everybody on MTo, we gotta form search parties & find Mechy!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Valkie]

The old grandfathers axe analogy.

Oh, we have replaced the handle a few times and the axe head twice when it wore out.

But its still the old grandfathers axe, yes-sir-eee

[lister]

Any thoughts?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus 

I wanted to do that! 


 

[McStitchy]

[gerleatherberman]

Philosophy aside for a moment. I am of the mindset that if the materials and appearance are identical, then I can move passed the idea of it not being the same exact thing. It is one of those things that makes life easier if you accept it. Nothing can remain perfectly original forever and thinking it can do so is a fool's errand. IMO of course. Even the surface molecular composition will change over time, so does that make it a different piece?

[cody6268]

If you try to restore it using period-correct, identical parts, sure. If you're just slapping something on there because it fits, no.

[tosh]

I wouldn't buy a SAK or MT from a collectors point of view if I knew it had been overhauled, unless ofcourse it was by the original manufacturer.
It's part of the reason why I never purchased or understood the appeal of Texas Tool Crafters

We recently visited a shop where several years ago I missed out on buying a large section of dinosaur jaw bone complete with teeth! It was half embedded in rock, I decided to go for a walk and consider it, when I returned it had gone. When I enquired on my second visit, the chap said he had just the thing...I received a email 2 days later with a picture of a jawbone complete with teeth (65 million years old) I almost purchased, but something didn't quite sit right, after several emails it turns out the "artifact" was infact a composite of various teeth, and bits of jaw bone that had been set is some kind of resin to resemble rock...Needless I declined. That to me, defeats the whole point. 
If it's not original...whats the point?