When did the Vic 91mm family start ?

[Huntsman]

Hey Knights

Just looking at the first Officer's Knife in the Wiki - Which was a 100mm SAK - Just like its military cousin.

This got me thinking ...... When did the 91mm family start?

Presumambly the 93mm line started with the smaller Soldier in 1951
- With the Alox 93mms starting later that decade with the first Pioneer
And the Classic line started in 1952 - according to the Wiki

But what about the 91mm? - The most well known SAKs of all (well apart from the Classics!)

Plastic scales first came in in the late 30s - Was it then they down sized the Officer's Knife ? - Or earlier/later ?   

Be good to get this info in the Wiki!

[Huntsman]

Hmm - Just checked the Wiki again - We may have an inconsistency

The Officer's Knife is in the 100mm section and the 100mm title page implies that the first Officer's Knife was 100mm

However the 91mm title page says this:
"In 1897, six years after he first started manufacturing the Soldier's knife, Karl Elsener brought out his Officers' Knife. This knife introduced the legendary corkscrew, some consider to be the defining tool of a Swiss Army Knife, and the secondary blade, in a new frame size - 91mm"    

Can anyone shed any light?
JB you around still ? Haven't heard from you in a while !
I remember you found a very special knife with an unusual size, that would shed light on this question a few years ago
- I'll see if I can find the thread.

[Huntsman]

Wow two replies to this post already !!! 

Found it - Yay !!
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,51070.msg860601.html#msg860601

Looks like the Wiki is wrong - And the Officer's Knives were always 91mm - Apart from the 290 of course !!

So unless anyone screams out - I will move the Officer's Knife page to the 91mm section

[Don Pablo]

 
I always thought that they were 100mm.

[Shuya]

What was new to me is that the "old" 1951 Soldier lived together with the later alox...
Thought there wasnt a time when both were produced, apparently I was wrong.

[Huntsman]

Well  the 1951 Soldier and Alox Soldier did not overlap
But it did overlap with the earliest Alox Pioneers - As this knife was the basis for the Alox Soldier
See History section of 1961 Soldier...

http://www.sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Soldier+1961

[MiniChamp]

Well  the 1951 Soldier and Alox Soldier did not overlap

This is not entirely accurate. While the year stamps of model 1961 soldier knives go back at least to 1962, there exist model 1951 soldier knives with year stamps going up to (at least) 1964. Here is an example of such a model 1951 soldier knife from 1964 that is currently being offered for sale on eBay. More information is also available here.

[Shuya]

Well  the 1951 Soldier and Alox Soldier did not overlap
But it did overlap with the earliest Alox Pioneers - As this knife was the basis for the Alox Soldier
See History section of 1961 Soldier...

http://www.sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Soldier+1961

Hmm...

@MiniChamp thats what I meant, watching the two knifes Ive posted here at evilbay.

[smiller43147]

There are more knowledgeable than me here, but here is my understanding:
The 1891 Soldier and the original Officer and Sportsman knives were 100mm.
In 1951 the soldier was shortened to 93mm and stainless tools.
The 93mm alox line started in 1957 and in 1961 was adopted by the swiss army as the 1961 soldier.

[Huntsman]

@ MC and Shuya - OK - But it is only Wenger who produced the 1951 Soldier design after 1960 - Correct?

@Smiler - So you believe that the original Officers Knife was 100mm .... Which means the statement in the Wiki 91mm page is wrong !
Any idea when they switched to 91mm for the Officers' Knives?

Can anyone else shed any light please?    

[smiller43147]

Vic considers the Spartan to be the direct descendent of the Officer's knife.  Here's the history from the 2012 commemorative Spartan.
No mention of size, but cellidor starts in 1937, the 1968 looks like current production.

[Mechanickal]

I'll measure my 1902 Officer... give me a few

[Mechanickal]

1902: 90.5mm
1936: 90mm

[Don Pablo]

1902: 90.5mm
1936: 90mm

Where did the missing length go?

You haven't been using them as hammers, have you?

[MiniChamp]

@ MC and Shuya - OK - But it is only Wenger who produced the 1951 Soldier design after 1960 - Correct?

Most likely, yes. In fact, this page says that "the manufacturer Elsener did not deliver any knifes in 1960 and 1961 (official information)" so it seems likely that the latest Vicorinox model 1951 soldier knives are from 1959.

[MiniChamp]

1902: 90.5mm
1936: 90mm

Where did the missing length go?

There is no "missing length." As funny as it may sound, Pre-1951 "91mm" Victorinox SAKs are actually 90mm long (with small fluctuations from this precise length being quite likely for very old SAKs). The 1903 catalog didn't mention any length in mm, but listed the corresponding size as "9 cm." By the 1940's they already formally described the length as "90 mm," as indicated by the attached image of a page from a late-1940's catalog. The actual length changed to 91mm in the early 1950's, along with the many other major changes that occurred around that time (change to aluminum liners, change of distances between the rivets, introduction of the new 1951 can opener, etc.).

Similarly, Pre-1951 "84mm" Victorinox SAKs are actually 83mm long...

To minimize potential confusion, I think that it may be a good idea to have these facts mentioned in SAKWiki.

[Mechanickal]

Thank you!

[Don Pablo]

Hmm, interesting! I wonder why they went 91mm instead of 90mm, which is a nice round number.

[Rapidray]

1902: 90.5mm
1936: 90mm

Where did the missing length go?

There is no "missing length." As funny as it may sound, Pre-1951 "91mm" Victorinox SAKs are actually 90mm long (with small fluctuations from this precise length being quite likely for very old SAKs). The 1903 catalog didn't mention any length in mm, but listed the corresponding size as "9 cm." By the 1940's they already formally described the length as "90 mm," as indicated by the attached image of a page from a late-1940's catalog. The actual length changed to 91mm in the early 1950's, along with the many other major changes that occurred around that time (change to aluminum liners, change of distances between the rivets, introduction of the new 1951 can opener, etc.).

Similarly, Pre-1951 "84mm" Victorinox SAKs are actually 83mm long...

To minimize potential confusion, I think that it may be a good idea to have these facts mentioned in SAKWiki.

I got a kick out of the ‘Pocket-Knives for Peasants’. I love finding printed material with what was acceptable word usage which isn’t politically or socially correct.
I do wonder how they came up with ‘s’ for black.  Interesting read...thanks for sharing.

[Reinier]

S for schwar(t)z. Haven't you watched Breaking Bad?

[Rapidray]

S for schwar(t)z. Haven't you watched Breaking Bad?

No I haven’t - not my type of program.

[Huntsman]

Hey Knights

Thanks so much for all this feedback and interaction
That's what I love about this place - There is so much knowledge here - And it is all freely shared
Particular thanks to MC, Smiler and Mechanical

Anyway that's it ...... The Officers knife has a new home on the 91mm page
I've also updated the Officers page with that interesting size information from MC
Please check it all out (via the new home link above) and feedback any comments -
Oh - MC - I put your catalogue page in the Wiki (crediting you as the author) - I hope that is OK

This was quite a big error / omission in the Wiki - eh?

I'll measure my 1902 Officer... give me a few

WHAT !!!: You have a 1902 Officer's Knife ...... and  ....... a 1936 one

 

Or are they already in the vintage SAK thread

[Mechanickal]

WHAT !!!: You have a 1902 Officer's Knife ...... and  ....... a 1936 one

 

Or are they already in the vintage SAK thread

Uhm, no.
I don't think they are in that thread... will try to do so tonight

[Mechanickal]

WHAT !!!: You have a 1902 Officer's Knife ...... and  ....... a 1936 one

 

Or are they already in the vintage SAK thread

Done!

[MiniChamp]

Thanks so much for all this feedback and interaction
That's what I love about this place - There is so much knowledge here - And it is all freely shared
Particular thanks to MC, Smiler and Mechanical

You are most welcome. Many thanks for all your great work on SAKWiki! 

Anyway that's it ...... The Officers knife has a new home on the 91mm page
I've also updated the Officers page with that interesting size information from MC
Please check it all out (via the new home link above) and feedback any comments -
Oh - MC - I put your catalogue page in the Wiki (crediting you as the author) - I hope that is OK

Hmmm...    The reason that I attached this image of just one page is that I couldn't attach the whole catalog (it's a 4.5MB PDF file with 28 pages; too big). I think that it would be better to do things as follows: First of all make the full catalog available on SAKWiki (it's an interesting document that should anyway be publicly and conveniently available, IMO). After that replace the link to the image by a link to the full catalog. Since the double "as" in "as 90mm as" doesn't look very nice (my fault; but removing the coma made it worse), I think that it would be better to also cut the relevant sentence and say:
By the 1940's the length is formally described as 90mm. This can be seen from the page before last of this late-1940's catalogue.
(Where "this late-1940's catalogue" becomes a link to the full catalog.)  Moreover, I would also turn "The 1903 catalogue" to a link to the 1903 catalog.

A compact version of the 1903 catalog is available at this link, but since I'm not familiar with a current public link to the late-1940's catalog, I propose that we get it added to SAKWiki. The question is: how do we do that? It so happens that there is a mysterious dead link to a "1948 Victorinox Catalog" on the SAKWiki Vic catalogs page, and since I'm not aware of more than one Vic catalog floating around from around this time, it's possible that this catalog was once available there and maybe is even still on the system somehow. Otherwise, I would be happy to upload it if someone would arrange for me to able to do it (I have a "MiniChamp" SAKWiki username, but as far as I can tell, it cannot do anything).

[smiller43147]

Thought it useful to reference this timeline just posted in another thread:
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,79865.0.html

[Simyo]

Sort of off topic but it is 91mm and SAKWiki related, is it possible to get separate pages for the cybertools?  It’s slightly odd when things like the SwissChamp page references the 41/l but the link goes to the page for all cybertools.  Sorry I know this would create a bit of work clearing up the related links.

[Huntsman]

Going to add this ^^^ to the main WIki thread