Moser Signau or Elsener officer knife

[maxt]

Tl\dr: I have acquired  an officer knife of the Moser Signau brand and I am looking additional info.

The knife is of unbelievable high quality with the tools well-preserved. It has the full snap and only minor signs of use. The scales however are well-worn as if it was in the tool box. The knife came with the pouch that is very similar to Victorinox of the 60s, the one advertised in their catalogs of the time. All tools are almost identical to Victorinox. I think the steel is chromed. The back tang INOXYD corresponds to 1943-1951 of Victorinox.

The main tang is Moser Signau and that is quite a mystery to me.

The company was established since beginning of 19th century and active till 1963 in the town of Signau, where the original 17th century building of the Moser factory is still there and serves as local attraction.  Moser Signau was one of the 20 original 1908 model manufacturers. I have tried to find other models they made but I only found one in all google, of the same amazing high quality and very similar to Victorinox.

I have read the info from the first hands of other office knife maker, Röthlisberger Bärau, that Elsener was very agressive about the logo and it forced Röthlisberger to drop the use of the cross inside a shield.

In this case the logo is not look like it is the same Elsener logo used on other knives.

Does anybody know anyting about why Moser tang is put on this model? Victorinox\Elsener outsorced the main blade production to Moser?

[maxt]

Another set of pics

[Mechanickal]

Strange one... following this thread...

[Rapidray]

 As am I 

[maxt]

I would bump the thread with more pics of Moser Signau knives, but these are the only ones I found in all internet.

[ulli]

Beautiful knives!

Both of them are made by victorinox/elsener, even the one without a victorinox tang stamp. It was quite common to put the dealers name on the front of the mainblade. Most of the time, you can see a rear tang stamp with a reference to victorinox/elsener. But not all the time.

Moser Signau was a knife maker that made his own knives too. But around 1940/1950, most of the small swiss knife makers stopped their production. I think the knives would have been too expensive. The same time, victorinox/elsener forced the automatic production, that means a huge output for a reasonable price. Most knife makers had no chance against the power of victorinox/elsener and wenger. So they just switched to selling knives of the big two swiss knife makers companies and others, solingen, thiers. And they repaired the knives, grinded them and so on. They could order spare parts directly from victorinox or wenger to repair the knives. Some knife makers assembled also victorinox knives. They took all the parts from victorinox, often with their own logo on the blade, and assembled and sold them to customers.

[maxt]

It was quite common to put the dealers name on the front of the mainblade.

I thought that the dealer's \ customer's name was always etched on the blade not embossed on the tang. On my pics of Moser Signau you can see Blasi AG etching. I googled and it seems that Blasi AG was active before 1960s as machine parts and accessories manufacturers (wood-working machinery). Also I attach 2 different pics with the dealer names, the etching I suppose were made by Victorinox, because the style is the same, but the company and canton are different. (One pic is by Julius T. Verd, that I took from his Facebook post).

They took all the parts from victorinox, often with their own logo on the blade, and assembled and sold them to customers.

Who do you thing made the tang stamp of Moser on the knife I pictured? Do you think Victorinox could do it? Or Moser made it on the ready blade it recieved from Victorinox? I checked the tang surface it is the same on both sides, the level of grinding is the same. However the die of Moser has refined neat lettering, while INOXYD shows well worn die. The strike force is (imo) the same on both sides. I would guess that the press was the same heavy dute industrial press that I think was impossible for Moser at the time given the scales of the production. I will post their 'factory' pics later.

[Borg]

Very nice maxt, great addition to your collection 

It was quite common to put the dealers name on the front of the mainblade. Most of the time, you can see a rear tang stamp with a reference to victorinox/elsener. But not all the time.

Moser Signau was a knife maker that made his own knives too. But around 1940/1950, most of the small swiss knife makers stopped their production. I think the knives would have been too expensive. The same time, victorinox/elsener forced the automatic production, that means a huge output for a reasonable price. Most knife makers had no chance against the power of victorinox/elsener and wenger. So they just switched to selling knives of the big two swiss knife makers companies and others, solingen, thiers. And they repaired the knives, grinded them and so on. They could order spare parts directly from victorinox or wenger to repair the knives. Some knife makers assembled also victorinox knives. They took all the parts from victorinox, often with their own logo on the blade, and assembled and sold them to customers.

Interesting, i always wondered about one of mine as it has the look and feel of a Vic but stamped Dolmetsch-Riethmüller

[maxt]

Interesting, i always wondered about one of mine as it has the look and feel of a Vic but stamped Dolmetsch-Riethmüller
(Image removed from quote.)

Can you post the back side of your knife?

[Borg]

I can later today when i'm home but its stamped INOXYD, nothing else 

[Rapidray]

 
Great posts and photos.

[Borg]

Not very clear, it's very worn on the back 

[Rapidray]

Not very clear, it's very worn on the back 

(Image removed from quote.)

I do like the horn on it! Nice   

[ulli]

Difficult to say who did the stamps/etching... Typically, a specific dealer used a specific typeface. That means they did them by themselves (more obvious) or ordered the knives with the right stamp.
For the soldier knives, I know they just sent blank tools/scales to the small knife makers, they hardened, grinded and assembed them. So if they did the hardening, it would be a easy step to make the stamps the way they want them to be.

One more thing: italic letters always refer to a dealer, not a knife maker. I think that was some sort of agreement or just the commln way it was done.

[Mechanickal]

Some great info here...

[Rapidray]

 
Interesting for sure.

[MiniChamp]

It may be interesting to read what JAZZBASS wrote about cutler marks on the tangs of the main blade of Victorinox SAKs in this post (and in the continuation of the thread; unfortunately his images are gone).

I attach a few images (from online sales) of other Victorinox SAKs with such marks.

[maxt]

One more thing: italic letters always refer to a dealer, not a knife maker. I think that was some sort of agreement or just the commln way it was done.

Will you expand your great chart with these dealers at some point? I hope others will contribute with their 'unknown' manufacturers tang stamps in this thread.

One observation about italic: Wenger sometimes changed from regular to italic even on the same model (see my pic). Probably that convention you mention either did not concern Wenger or it had been long forgotten before by 1980s.

Difficult to say who did the stamps/etching... Typically, a specific dealer used a specific typeface. That means they did them by themselves (more obvious) or ordered the knives with the right stamp.
For the soldier knives, I know they just sent blank tools/scales to the small knife makers, they hardened, grinded and assembed them. So if they did the hardening, it would be a easy step to make the stamps the way they want them to be.

I will just leave here the info I gathered about Moser. 
The company is mentioned in the book "Le couteau du soldat suisse" by Thierry Deladoey as one of the makers of 1908 Soldier. The author gave a foto of the tang stamp:

As I read the company started in the early 19th century and was passed from generation to generation of Moser family from 1831 to 1963. By the end of their operations they were making knives and medical instruments for Bern hospitals. The company occupied a historical  building in Signau called Moserhaus. As of today the building is protected and has the status of 'Swiss class B cultural property of regional significance'. There is even a wiki-commons page dedicated to it https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Moserhaus_Signau.

The Moser factory occupied the basement of the building. Back in 1968 there was a small study about Moser Messerschmiede company and the history of its property from date of constructions in 1760 to 1960s. I cannot read the book (it is very small run, not digitised) but in case somebody ever has free time in Bern he can read the 26 pages of the original in 2 local Bernese libraries https://www.worldcat.org/title/messerschmiede-moser-und-das-moserhaus-in-signau/oclc/78802468 Probably the book has more info about how Moser got the 1908 Soldier contract with Swiss government.

I have read however the excerpt about the building from a magasine of 1960s. According to the article the 3 brothers who run the factory died almost simultaneously between 1960 and 1962, a younger Moser inherited the business but he moved from Signau to Langnau. Since then the business eventually disappeared.
The article has brief description of the workshop, it is in German to google-translate:

Show content

In der Kellerwerkstatt, wo die Tisch- und Taschenmesser entstanden, verlief der Arbeitstisch unter den Fenstern der Wand entlang. An der Esse im Hintergrund wurde der Stahl geglüht. Ein von Hand gezogener Blasebalg
fachte das Feuer an. Ein mannshohes Schwungrad trieb über einen Riemen
den Schleifstein. In einem mit rotem Papier ausgeschlagenen Wandschränklein
glänzten die fertigen Messer; ebenso dienten die Kellerfenster als Schaukästen,
und vor Weihnachten konnte man oben in der hintern Wohnstube eine Mes¬
serausstellung besichtigen. Paul Moser arbeitete am Platz unter dem ersten
Fenster bei der Hausecke; dort pflegte der Briefträger die Post hinunter¬
zureichen.
Besondere Meisterstücke waren kleine Taschenmesser mit vielen Klingen,
mit Schrauben- und Zapfenzieher, Scherchen, Büchsenöffner, Ahle, Feile und
Säge, die in Fächern nebeneinander lagen.

I tried to locate what has become of Moser but I have only a few leads. I don't know if these may have any info about Moser-Victorinox business

Show content

There is a Moser company in Langnau dealing with architecture (not sure if the owner is descendant from that Moser family) but he is the only Moser in Landau, the town where the Mosers relocated from Singau.
https://www.raumundgestaltung.ch/index.php?nav=3

Friedrich Moser Messer, Messerschmieden in Herzogenbuchsee
The only knife-dealing Moser that can be found in the same canton of Bern
As per Google streets it might be a very small service in the state of decay
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.1854173,7.7067985,3a,75y,308.79h,89.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1z0xVlVfwb36hOD1xQMdkw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en-US

There is a knife shop in Chur that claims to be an off-spring from Messerschmiede Moser.
https://www.messer-leupi.ch/

And finally there is a presentation about the original Moser building and its factory with some archive drawings
https://www.yumpu.com/de/document/view/37044144/dorfstrasse-58/7
They included a reference of current knife drawings whereabouts.

[MiniChamp]

I will just leave here the info I gathered about Moser. 

That information about Moser is very interesting for me. Thanks, Maxt!    It would indeed be interesting to know more about various Swiss cutlers. In particular, I wonder if and how the Winterthur cutler "A. Wirth" is connected to the famous computer scientist Niklaus Wirth (who was born in 1934 in Winterthur). Does anyone know?

[jnoxyd]

It may be interesting to read what JAZZBASS wrote about cutler marks on the tangs of the main blade of Victorinox SAKs in this post (and in the continuation of the thread; unfortunately his images are gone).

I attach a few images (from online sales) of other Victorinox SAKs with such marks.

Nice pics MiniChamp ! I have some saved pics by Jazzbass from that days:

[Rapidray]

Wow...thats a collection! Nice 

[Mechanickal]

That means my 1936 Officer has a cutlery shop name on it!

"Bleuler"
"Zürich"

[maxt]

That means my 1936 Officer has a cutlery shop name on it!
"Bleuler"
"Zürich"

That also means that you absolutely must share a pic of the tang stamp and etching with us 
If that name is on the tang (same way as on Jazzbass' pic) that it had not been a shop but a knife manufacturer.

[Mechanickal]

[Rapidray]

Well, a nice surprise! 

[maxt]

We have to wait for Ulli opinion about this combination.

Imo, if the knife is dated to 1930s the combination "victor inox" and the etching could definitely mean the cutlery and not the shop. The latter had become customary 10-20 years later, when cutleries used proper tang stamps on Victorinox Officers.

[ulli]

I don`t know if there`s a difference between a stamp on the tang or on the blade. Its always difficult to say if a stamp belongs to a knife manufacturer or just a shop, selling knives.


For this BLEULER knife it seems that its just a knife from the victorinox factory with this BLEULER stamp on it. Maybe he did the assembling, maybe not. Bleuler had two shops in zurich, one on the Poststrasse 2, one on the Rindermarkt 13. He sold not only victorinox or wenger knives, but many knives from solingen, from Klaas and Bertram and maybe other companies. There`s often the Bleuler stamp on the tang of those knives.


There was also a Bleuer shop/cutler in Geneve. Bleuler is known to make sabers and swords since the 17th century. I don`t know if its the same family, but could be. My opinion about Bleuler is, that he produced his own knives till around 1920, then just had his shops, maybe repaired some knives, changed blades, and so on. Later he sold his shops, I think to Dolmetsch and Riethmüller. Zurich is an international touristic place with many employees from all around the world, so maybe that was the reason to skip his own production just to sell knives from international cutlers, because of the demand.

[Borg]

Very interesting ulli 

For added interest regarding Dolmetsch-Riethmuller i found this in the State archives,

Identification and content:

Title:   DOLMETSCH, Zurich Cutlery, fine and hollow grinding

Previous company: RIETHMUELLER and DOLMETSCH, Zurich
.
First registration: No. 33 of 05.01.1905 (DOLMETSCH-RIETHMUELLER, Zurich).
 
Change of company name: No. 2806 from 11.11.1924.

Deletion of the company: No. 3978 dated 07.08.1934.

Successor company: DOLMETSCH, Zurich.

Creation date (s):   1905-1934

If i understand correctly from further reading Dolmetsch in this form then went on till 1970 then had another change but keeping Dolmetsch name 

[Mechanickal]

Thanks for the info ulli!

I couldn't find anything even closely related to "Bleuler" in Zürich...

Absolutely NOTHING.

So...

[ulli]

A good source is the book "Schweizer Waffenschmiede vom 15. bis 20. Jahrhundert" by Hugo Schneider.