WorkChamp XL. Liner-lock vs. Slide-lock.

[LeaF]

Last week I've received a new addition to my collection - WorkChamp XL.
As you probably know, in this year Victorinox re-released some old slide-lock models with liner-lock.


From my point of view, the result of such transformation should get a new name, but Victorinox decided to use old ones.
Besides changing of locking mechanism, there are some other changes presents in this version of WorkChamp XL.


But let's review some pictures, I think it will be more efficient in order to see what actually was changed.
Lets's start?

Just unpacked. Did you see something strange?


Yes, you're right. This model already has a new article number 0.8564.XL, but included instruction - from older variation (0.9064.XL)


Few photos with closed tools...



And with open tools:




In order to understand, what actually was changed, I've made several pictures with both models:




As you can see from these pictures above, the order of tools was partially changed (due to changing lock-mechanism, of course). Instead of clip-point blade (like in Mauser model from 108-mm) in old WorkChamp XL, new one has a cutting blade (like in RescueTool model).
Hook-cleaner and combo-tool positions were reversed.

And now it's a surprise time. Did you see how WorkChamp XL looks on Victorinox web-site or in their catalog?
Original picture (from victorinox.com):


Did you see a some discrepance with real model?
There are no fine technician screwdriver, but there are two awls there.


Is it mistake? What do you think?
Thanks for your time!

[NorCalJim]

 

Thanks for the photo tour of the new XL, Leaf!

I have the simple WorkChamp and this is the first time that I have had a detailed look at the XL--it's much wider than I thought it would be!

I don't know why some manufacturers like Victorinox use the same name for different SAK models since it causes needless confusion and disappointment when the buyer believes he/she is purchasing one model but receives another.

Thank you for taking the time to share your experience with this new SAK!



Jim

[Syph007]

The dual awls has to be a factory error.

[ThePeacent]

dual awls...at  least one could've been the wonderful inline awl   

[Thunderpants]

TWO awls?!!

The work of the devil himself if you ask me...

[Huntsman]

Thanks for the great post LeaF - Fantastic pics and explanations ..... as always       

And very, very interesting to see the differences from the old XL    and also this ....... 

Did you see a some discrepance with real model?
There are no fine technician screwdriver, but there are two awls there.
Is it mistake? What do you think?

I think Syph is right - An error - I checked the catalogue and it has the fine SD and an awl 
I can see why they made the error too - in the catalogue the awl is in the middle of the knife, and the SD in the normal awl position, which I guess has confused the assembler   
..... Not sure whether I woud be annoyed to have an imperfect knife, or really pleased I have a collectable factory mistake! 

Re this:

From my point of view, the result of such transformation should get a new name, but Victorinox decided to use old ones.

and this:

I don't know why some manufacturers like Victorinox use the same name for different SAK models since it causes needless confusion and disappointment when the buyer believes he/she is purchasing one model but receives another.

LeaF and I have discussed this over in the Wiki thread and also via PM .... And we have a difference of opinion !!   
To me this is the same model - But a development/progression in that model - And one that completely replaces its predecessor, ie. the factory is only making the new XL now.

And from a Wiki perspective I think it is best to have it all in one page too !!
For three reasons .....

• It keeps the overall number of pages down
• It avoids having two pages that are pretty much duplicates of each other - To me this is what causes confusion !!

But most importantly:

• A Wiki user can see all on one page how this model developed  ..... as opposed to having to flick between two separate pages

I have been putting this kind of information in the History sections of the Wiki model pages - So the user has all the information they need in one place.
If we had a new page every time a feature changed on a model - the Wiki would explode !! Granted this particular development is quite a significant change !!

Be good to get your view - Whady'all think

[NorCalJim]

Thanks for the great post LeaF - Fantastic pics and explanations ..... as always       

And very, very interesting to see the differences from the old XL    and also this ....... 

Did you see a some discrepance with real model?
There are no fine technician screwdriver, but there are two awls there.
Is it mistake? What do you think?

I think Syph is right - An error - I checked the catalogue and it has the fine SD and an awl 
I can see why they made the error too - in the catalogue the awl is in the middle of the knife, and the SD in the normal awl position, which I guess has confused the assembler   
..... Not sure whether I woud be annoyed to have an imperfect knife, or really pleased I have a collectable factory mistake! 

Re this:

From my point of view, the result of such transformation should get a new name, but Victorinox decided to use old ones.

and this:

I don't know why some manufacturers like Victorinox use the same name for different SAK models since it causes needless confusion and disappointment when the buyer believes he/she is purchasing one model but receives another.

LeaF and I have discussed this over in the Wiki thread and also via PM .... And we have a difference of opinion !!   
To me this is the same model - But a development/progression in that model - And one that completely replaces its predecessor, ie. the factory is only making the new XL now.

And from a Wiki perspective I think it is best to have it all in one page too !!
For three reasons .....

• It keeps the overall number of pages down
• It avoids having two pages that are pretty much duplicates of each other - To me this is what causes confusion !!

But most importantly:

• A Wiki user can see all on one page how this model developed  ..... as opposed to having to flick between two separate pages

I have been putting this kind of information in the History sections of the Wiki model pages - So the user has all the information they need in one place.
If we had a new page every time a feature changed on a model - the Wiki would explode !! Granted this particular development is quite a significant change !!

Be good to get your view - Whady'all think

I think you make a good argument for iterative changes to a model and how it is represented on SAKWiki. From a wiki organization standpoint, it makes perfect sense. My problem is when the name suggests a certain tool set due to a model's notoriety but departs from that tool set.  Two examples come to mind: 1) A Camper complete with logo that contains the saw as expected vs. a Camper in name but identical to the Spartan in tool set; 2) A Yeoman is known for its 3-layer tool set but I purchased a Yeoman in name but the tool set was identical to that of the Explorer. This is the practice that I think leads to confusion and difficulty in managing buyer expectations.

In case you are not familiar with the Yeoman example, these photos document my purchase example:

Yeoman BSA 2 by NorCal Jim, on Flickr

Yeoman BSA 1 by NorCal Jim, on Flickr

In the case of this BSA Yeoman, I was surprised and confused when for all practical purposes, an Explorer showed up. Since Explorers are my favorite SAK, I was ultimately pleased with the purchase. Had I known that it was practically speaking an Explorer, I wouldn't have paid a premium price.

Jim

[Huntsman]

Yep Jim - Saw your earlier posts on the Yeoman
There is a link in the Wiki Yeoman page to the Swiss Army Knights pages that talk about The Great Yeoman Conspiracy
http://sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Yeoman

This I think is a slightly different problem to the one LeaF is talking about - and is caused by Vic importers or other countries renaming models from the official Vic names
Swiss Army Brands Inc in the US seem to have been a bit guilty of this in the past !!
There were also some Canadian versions - One called the Hiker I think - That was a Spartan !!
Yes - Agree this is at least frustrating and confusing - and can lead to more $$$ being spent  - and     -  should not be done !!

PS. How about replying rather than quoting when ...errrrm - replying - Then everyone does not have to see all my verbal bs again - And keeps the forum pages shorter - Especially if your reply closely follows the original post !

[Frater_Martin]

LeaF, I think you 're a Universe's only SAK collector who has exclusive SAK with two awls in it. Despite (or even thanks to) the assembler mistake you can be proud of your knife. It's perfect!

[firiki]

TWO awls?!!

The work of the devil himself if you ask me...

Duawl awls, you mean...     

And yes... 


Thanks for the pictures and comparison, LeaF 

[hiraethus]

 

[LeaF]

Thanks all for the replies and discussion!
I absolutely forgot to include separate photos of original (slide-lock) WorkChamp XL to this thread.
If someone would like to review them - please check here (https://leaf-vics.com/2014/12/393-workchamp-xl.html)

The dual awls has to be a factory error.

LeaF, I think you 're a Universe's only SAK collector who has exclusive SAK with two awls in it.

I think Syph is right - An error - I checked the catalogue and it has the fine SD and an awl
I can see why they made the error too - in the catalogue the awl is in the middle of the knife, and the SD in the normal awl position, which I guess has confused the assembler 
..... Not sure whether I woud be annoyed to have an imperfect knife, or really pleased I have a collectable factory mistake!

Mates, it's hard to say, but I need to dissapoint you
I've asked my local Victorinox dealer to check situation with their XLs - the situation is the same (Two awls, no SD).
Mine was bought in Switzerland, Ukrainian ones has the same mistake in assembling. Maybe someone from you can check this issue with your stores? Just to be sure?
       

LeaF and I have discussed this over in the Wiki thread and also via PM .... And we have a difference of opinion !! 

And it's a great result, I think. Different opinions always better - they forced us to investigate deeper.

A Yeoman is known for its 3-layer tool set but I purchased a Yeoman in name but the tool set was identical to that of the Explorer

Yes, it's a known "bug" which was raised by local dealer's mistake, as mr.Huntsman already said.
But did you know, that BSA collection of Victorinox knives has at least, one more serious mistake in naming?
If you're interesting in details - check this article in my blog (https://leaf-vics.com/2017/08/589-huntsman-bsa.html)

This I think is a slightly different problem to the one LeaF is talking about - and is caused by Vic importers or other countries renaming models from the official Vic names
Swiss Army Brands Inc in the US seem to have been a bit guilty of this in the past !!
There were also some Canadian versions - One called the Hiker I think - That was a Spartan !!

Seems, you're talking about Alpineer / Scouter / Hiker models (see attached pictures).

[Syph007]

Thanks all for the replies and discussion!
I absolutely forgot to include separate photos of original (slide-lock) WorkChamp XL to this thread.
If someone would like to review them - please check here (https://leaf-vics.com/2014/12/393-workchamp-xl.html)

The dual awls has to be a factory error.

LeaF, I think you 're a Universe's only SAK collector who has exclusive SAK with two awls in it.

I think Syph is right - An error - I checked the catalogue and it has the fine SD and an awl
I can see why they made the error too - in the catalogue the awl is in the middle of the knife, and the SD in the normal awl position, which I guess has confused the assembler 
..... Not sure whether I woud be annoyed to have an imperfect knife, or really pleased I have a collectable factory mistake!

Mates, it's hard to say, but I need to dissapoint you
I've asked my local Victorinox dealer to check situation with their XLs - the situation is the same (Two awls, no SD).
Mine was bought in Switzerland, Ukrainian ones has the same mistake in assembling. Maybe someone from you can check this issue with your stores? Just to be sure?
       

Weird! I cant tell from the pictures, but what are the topside tools on those two layers with the awls?  The fine driver is a thinner tool (same thickness as wood/metal saw) than the awl. 

[LeaF]

Weird! I cant tell from the pictures, but what are the topside tools on those two layers with the awls?  The fine driver is a thinner tool (same thickness as wood/metal saw) than the awl.

Hmm... Seems it could be a real reason for tools replacement.


Slide-lock:
Technician SD is in opposite side of openers layer. Awl - with hook cleaner \ combo-tool


Liner-lock:
One awl is in opposite side of openers layer. Another one - also on the layer with combo-tool \ hook cleaner.


But openers in liner lock are little bit wider than in slide lock knives, it's a well-known information. Maybe this was a key-factor to replace Technician SD with awl? Otherwise this combination will not be so fit? Initially engineers decided to leave Technician SD as is, prepared some renders, but didn't pay attention to the fact of different width of openers layer..
Why not?

[supershaji]

Moderator Comment: - Double quote of reply 11 removed as requested!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Hiker sold otherwise has a saw tool and a philips screwdriver in place of the corkscrew. I have one which I got specifically for whittling when out in the bush.

[LeaF]

The Hiker sold otherwise has a saw tool and a philips screwdriver in place of the corkscrew. I have one which I got specifically for whittling when out in the bush.

Yes, you're right.
I've posted pictures of "real" Hiker with "Canadian Hiker" above together with other knives from this series


P.S. Please don't use mega-quoting! It's almost impossible to read.

[supershaji]

Sure. Realised that this quoting business is really not required. Lemme edit it out.

Sent from my SM-J200G using Tapatalk

[supershaji]

Ok. Can't edit any more suppose.

Moderator Comment: reviewing this thread and edited mega quote out for you!

Sent from my SM-J200G using Tapatalk

[Huntsman]

Just made some Wiki updates for this model - which led me to to this page, LeaF's blog and the Vic site

I am confused by the Vic site.
It looks like they did update the image and indeed the WC XL has two awls!

However, they also said it has four flat screwdrivers in the tool list.
3. screwdriver 5 mm, lockable
9. screwdriver 5 mm
11. screwdriver 3 mm
25. screwdriver 2.5 mm   

Of course, the No. 3 is the regular bottle-opener screwdriver - From checking with the WorkChamp No. 11 is the can-opener SD.

But what are the other two?   
One must be the combo tool SD - But I don't think it is 5mm - as it is between the other two in width.
And what is the other one? Have they left in the fine SD from the reverse side that never happened?

Or am I missing something? 

[Syph007]

I assumed one was a fine driver on backside, but it really has dual awls?  Could they have just goofed on what Pic to use?

[smiller43147]

Here's the current image on the US web site.

[LeaF]

There are no fine screwdrivers on liner lock WorkChamp XL, it has two awls instead.


I suppose that mentioned SDs in knife's description (as initially wrong picture) its a result of human mistaken, nothing more..

[Huntsman]

Over the years I have not been that impressed by the Vic website.

I am pretty sure it is not built (..... or quality assured !   )   by people who understand SAKs - as there have been several errors in it eg Cybertools, SwissChamp functions

Anyway my OCD kicked in and I had to get to the bottom of this ...

So I checked the website for the 91mm SD lengths and they are:
Regular BO SD - 6mm;  CO SD - 3mm; Combo SD - 5mm;

Hmm ....    .... So if that is the case - The 111mm SD is smaller than the 91mm SD?        ........ I don't think so   

So now I measured the 91mms and all these widths look correct to me!!

Then I check the website again for the 111mm BO SDs and they are all listed as 5mm
So I get out my trusty Soldier measure its SD    .......  and it is is 7mm   
So I reckon all the SD lengths on the Vic website for all the 111mm BO SDs are wrong !!!   
And what is really surprising is - The lengths do not match the 91mm BO SD lengths - Which would be an understandable mistake - As this would have been the width for the old slide-lock 111mm BO SDs!!

And as far the the XL is concerned:
No. 3 is wrong - It should be 7mm
No. 9. is probably correct and will be the combo SD at 5 mm - I don't have this tool so cannot check!
No. 11. is correct and will be the CO SD at 3mm
No. 25. screwdriver 2.5mm - Is completely completely wrong and should not be there at all - It was most likely left there in error after they changed the spec to the new liner-lock XL

Shall we let them know? 
I did point out an error (in the Swisstool) to Vic,  a couple of years ago, just via the website feedback - and it was amazing - I got a very nice reply from a Robert Elsener       .... Wow !!   
He acknowledged the error but said they would not fix it there and then as the website was being revised!

Should we propose that the Vic website is maintained by the MT.o Wiki team ...        We'd do a better job!   
 

[nate j]

Should we propose that the Vic website is maintained by the MT.o Wiki team ...        We'd do a better job!   

Tell him we'll maintain the website...but we're going to insist on being paid in SAKs!   

[NetsNJ]

Should have called this model the Dracula XL.  Why on Earth would you need two awls??

Also unsure why you need two serrated blades that are so similar...

[Huntsman]

Nice one - I really like that name!!       

Clearly you would not need those double-ups. I wonder if anyone actually uses the XL?   
The Wiki says that Vic says it's just for the collector!! Although their website describes it as a user.

So maybe this is just a showcase model - Anyone here carry it?   

I sent them an 'Contact us' email pointing out the errors - I'll let you know what happens.

[EMZ]

Dual awls! What a great invention. Now you can poke TWO holes at the same time!
 

[Huntsman]

Heard back from them on the width being 7mm on the 111mm SDs

They said "Thanks and you're correct!!"

They have passed it onto their appropriate internal team to correct ......  Not done yet!!   

Imagine that?     Every 111mm SD length being incorrect on their website!!