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How hard can it be?

McStitchy · 19 · 1059
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ie Offline McStitchy

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How hard can it be?
on: December 23, 2018, 10:30:42 AM
Since my Swisstool Spirit doesn't have replaceable wire cutters I'm trying to find out what I can and what I shouldn't cut with it.

The Victorinox Website says the following...

2. hard wire cutter
3. wire cutter for thin and soft wire up to 40 HRC

Ok....so... I'm having a "hard" time figuring out what that means as I cannot find real-life examples to those HRC tables.

Can anybody enlighten me with some examples like "Paper clip = HRC xx" and so on?

Maybe this could lead to a nice real-life Hardness example list   :salute:

Thanks!
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gb Offline Fuzzbucket

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Re: How hard can it be?
Reply #1 on: December 23, 2018, 12:04:09 PM
Don't cut :

High tensile wire
Steel cable/rope

 :facepalm:
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ie Offline McStitchy

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Re: How hard can it be?
Reply #2 on: December 23, 2018, 01:06:24 PM
Quote from: Fuzzbucket on December 23, 2018, 12:04:09 PM
Don't cut :

High tensile wire
Steel cable/rope

 :facepalm:

Right! Next thing you'll tell me is that I shouldn't use my stapler for metal sheets and wood  :pok:

I can... can I?      :D
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us Offline ToolJoe

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Re: How hard can it be?
Reply #3 on: December 24, 2018, 05:26:41 AM
I wish I could comment more but I have only used the cutters on my Spirit once in the whole time I've used them and it was to cut tinsel for a Christmss tree.
I knew my wife was a keeper when she transitioned from calling it a knife thingy to a multi-tool.

I might be crazy but it's kept me from going insane- Waylon Jennings

nz Offline zoidberg

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Re: How hard can it be?
Reply #4 on: December 24, 2018, 07:57:56 AM
Quote from: Fuzzbucket on December 23, 2018, 12:04:09 PM
Don't cut :

High tensile wire
Steel cable/rope

 :facepalm:

Or fish hooks, they are the devil.

tr Offline ddogu

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Re: How hard can it be?
Reply #5 on: December 24, 2018, 10:22:47 AM
Quote from: MTMatt on December 23, 2018, 01:06:24 PM
Quote from: Fuzzbucket on December 23, 2018, 12:04:09 PM
Don't cut :

High tensile wire
Steel cable/rope

 :facepalm:

Right! Next thing you'll tell me is that I shouldn't use my stapler for metal sheets and wood  :pok:

I can... can I?      :D
(Image removed from quote.)


Where/How on Earth did you find that gif? ROFLMAO!  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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ie Offline McStitchy

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Re: How hard can it be?
Reply #6 on: December 24, 2018, 10:52:30 AM
Quote from: ToolJoe on December 24, 2018, 05:26:41 AM
I wish I could comment more but I have only used the cutters on my Spirit once in the whole time I've used them and it was to cut tinsel for a Christmss tree.

Thanks TJ  :salute:

Note 1:

1. Tinsel = OK , HRC like brass
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no Offline Vidar

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Re: How hard can it be?
Reply #7 on: December 24, 2018, 10:52:51 AM
Quote from: MTMatt on December 23, 2018, 10:30:42 AM
Since my Swisstool Spirit doesn't have replaceable wire cutters I'm trying to find out what I can and what I shouldn't cut with it.

I tried cutting various items with various pliers earlier (although not the Spirit). https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,73020.0.html Many of the multi-tool pliers ended up damaged after that, and I reckon they all would have been if I had tried the real hard stuff. (Which a Knipex specialized cutter did with ease).

There seems to be three main weaknesses with multi-tool pliers. One is the geometry with overlapping cutters. That means cutter support and backing from just one side of the cutting edge, which seem to make them fairly narrow and prone to chipping. In comparison that is rare among specialized tools, and then those for soft materials. The other seems to be quality/ hardness/ brittleness of the cutting edge itself. That varies with manufacturer and pricepoint though. And the third is that many small ones separate sideways at the main plier connection instead of staying close and cutting.

That said the Spirit is a tough quality tool - it should be among the very best multi-tools out there including for cutting. Sadly I didn't have one around for that test.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2018, 10:54:13 AM by Vidar »
"Simple is hard"
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ie Offline McStitchy

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Re: How hard can it be?
Reply #8 on: December 24, 2018, 10:55:51 AM
Quote from: zoidberg on December 24, 2018, 07:57:56 AM
Quote from: Fuzzbucket on December 23, 2018, 12:04:09 PM
Don't cut :

High tensile wire
Steel cable/rope

 :facepalm:

Or fish hooks, they are the devil.

Didn't know about fish hooks being that tough.
Good info, thanks Zoid  :salute:

1. Tinsel = OK , HRC like brass
2. Fish hook = Not ok , HRC > 40
Merit Badges Build your own version of an MRE using off-the-shelf components, post a photo of the completed MRE and store at room temperature for 6 days or more. Consume the MRE after the storage period and post pictures and descriptions of the contents. Start a new thread and post a photo of the 110 knife for thirty (30) consecutive days. Using EDC items randomly selected with a poker hand, post a photo of your EDC or a component of the EDC that got used during the course of the day for 4 weeks (or 30 consecutive days) Participate  in Challenge thread and post a photo of your EDC or a component of the EDC that got used during the course of the day for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate and contribute in Challenge thread and post a photo of a different blade each day for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate  in Challenge thread and post a photo of a SAK Soldier for thirty (30) consecutive days. You have one of your pictures in the 2020 calendar or in top three of the calendar poll in any month of the given year. Participate  in a Challenge thread and post a photo of a LM Pocket Survival Tool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of any gear for thirty (30) consecutive days during the MTo anniversary month. Start a new thread and post a photo of a traditional folder for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Must put something in order and provide link to the post. Post your pocket dump photos then challenge two more members who must post their pocket dump photos within 24hrs for you to get the badge. Start a new thread and post a photo of the modified sak (scale swap not included) for thirty (30) consecutive days. Must start new thread with photos of multitools (Magazine/Catalogue type photos) Test,please ignore Must start a thread with a photo of at least five (5) of your watches Must post a step by step pictorial of a knife or multitool modification (scale swap not included) Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate  in Challenge thread and post a photo of a Buck 112 Ranger for thirty (30) consecutive days.

ie Offline McStitchy

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Re: How hard can it be?
Reply #9 on: December 24, 2018, 10:57:59 AM
Quote from: ddogu on December 24, 2018, 10:22:47 AM
Quote from: MTMatt on December 23, 2018, 01:06:24 PM
Quote from: Fuzzbucket on December 23, 2018, 12:04:09 PM
Don't cut :

High tensile wire
Steel cable/rope

 :facepalm:

Right! Next thing you'll tell me is that I shouldn't use my stapler for metal sheets and wood  :pok:

I can... can I?      :D
(Image removed from quote.)


Where/How on Earth did you find that gif? ROFLMAO!  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

It's from the movie Office Space   :D
I've searched giphy.com for that.
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no Offline Vidar

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Re: How hard can it be?
Reply #10 on: December 24, 2018, 10:58:09 AM
Shamelessly stolen from a jewelry hardness info site: (www.jewelrynotes.com/the-mohs-scale-of-hardness-for-metals-why-it-is-important/)

Lead: 1.5
Tin: 1.5
Zinc: 2.5
Gold: 2.5-3
Silver: 2.5-3
Aluminum: 2.5-3
Copper: 3
Brass: 3
Bronze: 3
Nickel: 4
Platinum: 4-4.5
Steel: 4-4.5
Iron: 4.5
Palladium: 4.75
Rhodium: 6
Titanium: 6
Hardened steel: 7-8
Tungsten: 7.5
Tungsten carbide: 8.5-9

To me it seems like most things up to 4-5 should be okish to cut within reasonable thickness and shape.
"Simple is hard"
"Hard is hard too"
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
Merit Badges Start a new thread and post a photo of any gear for thirty (30) consecutive days during the MTo anniversary month.

ie Offline McStitchy

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Re: How hard can it be?
Reply #11 on: December 24, 2018, 11:20:10 AM
Quote from: Vidar on December 24, 2018, 10:52:51 AM
Quote from: MTMatt on December 23, 2018, 10:30:42 AM
Since my Swisstool Spirit doesn't have replaceable wire cutters I'm trying to find out what I can and what I shouldn't cut with it.

I tried cutting various items with various pliers earlier (although not the Spirit). https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,73020.0.html Many of the multi-tool pliers ended up damaged after that, and I reckon they all would have been if I had tried the real hard stuff. (Which a Knipex specialized cutter did with ease).

There seems to be three main weaknesses with multi-tool pliers. One is the geometry with overlapping cutters. That means cutter support and backing from just one side of the cutting edge, which seem to make them fairly narrow and prone to chipping. In comparison that is rare among specialized tools, and then those for soft materials. The other seems to be quality/ hardness/ brittleness of the cutting edge itself. That varies with manufacturer and pricepoint though. And the third is that many small ones separate sideways at the main plier connection instead of staying close and cutting.

That said the Spirit is a tough quality tool - it should be among the very best multi-tools out there including for cutting. Sadly I didn't have one around for that test.

Wow Vidar, that's a great thread and testing you did there  :o
I'll make myself a fresh coffee and have some quality time reading it  :hatsoff:

"And the third is that many small ones separate sideways at the main plier connection instead of staying close and cutting"

... regarding that I've observed the following interesting design differences...
IMG_20181224_opt-comment.jpg
* IMG_20181224_opt-comment.jpg (Filesize: 165.19 KB)
Merit Badges Build your own version of an MRE using off-the-shelf components, post a photo of the completed MRE and store at room temperature for 6 days or more. Consume the MRE after the storage period and post pictures and descriptions of the contents. Start a new thread and post a photo of the 110 knife for thirty (30) consecutive days. Using EDC items randomly selected with a poker hand, post a photo of your EDC or a component of the EDC that got used during the course of the day for 4 weeks (or 30 consecutive days) Participate  in Challenge thread and post a photo of your EDC or a component of the EDC that got used during the course of the day for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate and contribute in Challenge thread and post a photo of a different blade each day for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate  in Challenge thread and post a photo of a SAK Soldier for thirty (30) consecutive days. You have one of your pictures in the 2020 calendar or in top three of the calendar poll in any month of the given year. Participate  in a Challenge thread and post a photo of a LM Pocket Survival Tool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of any gear for thirty (30) consecutive days during the MTo anniversary month. Start a new thread and post a photo of a traditional folder for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Must put something in order and provide link to the post. Post your pocket dump photos then challenge two more members who must post their pocket dump photos within 24hrs for you to get the badge. Start a new thread and post a photo of the modified sak (scale swap not included) for thirty (30) consecutive days. Must start new thread with photos of multitools (Magazine/Catalogue type photos) Test,please ignore Must start a thread with a photo of at least five (5) of your watches Must post a step by step pictorial of a knife or multitool modification (scale swap not included) Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate  in Challenge thread and post a photo of a Buck 112 Ranger for thirty (30) consecutive days.

ie Offline McStitchy

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Re: How hard can it be?
Reply #12 on: December 24, 2018, 11:34:54 AM
Quote from: Vidar on December 24, 2018, 10:58:09 AM
Shamelessly stolen from a jewelry hardness info site: (www.jewelrynotes.com/the-mohs-scale-of-hardness-for-metals-why-it-is-important/)

Lead: 1.5
Tin: 1.5
Zinc: 2.5
Gold: 2.5-3
Silver: 2.5-3
Aluminum: 2.5-3
Copper: 3
Brass: 3
Bronze: 3
Nickel: 4
Platinum: 4-4.5
Steel: 4-4.5
Iron: 4.5
Palladium: 4.75
Rhodium: 6
Titanium: 6
Hardened steel: 7-8
Tungsten: 7.5
Tungsten carbide: 8.5-9

To me it seems like most things up to 4-5 should be okish to cut within reasonable thickness and shape.

Great find Vidar  :tu:

Referring to this converter the Victorinox stated 40 HRC would be Mohs 4.37

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Rockwell+c+hardness+number+40
Merit Badges Build your own version of an MRE using off-the-shelf components, post a photo of the completed MRE and store at room temperature for 6 days or more. Consume the MRE after the storage period and post pictures and descriptions of the contents. Start a new thread and post a photo of the 110 knife for thirty (30) consecutive days. Using EDC items randomly selected with a poker hand, post a photo of your EDC or a component of the EDC that got used during the course of the day for 4 weeks (or 30 consecutive days) Participate  in Challenge thread and post a photo of your EDC or a component of the EDC that got used during the course of the day for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate and contribute in Challenge thread and post a photo of a different blade each day for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate  in Challenge thread and post a photo of a SAK Soldier for thirty (30) consecutive days. You have one of your pictures in the 2020 calendar or in top three of the calendar poll in any month of the given year. Participate  in a Challenge thread and post a photo of a LM Pocket Survival Tool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of any gear for thirty (30) consecutive days during the MTo anniversary month. Start a new thread and post a photo of a traditional folder for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Must put something in order and provide link to the post. Post your pocket dump photos then challenge two more members who must post their pocket dump photos within 24hrs for you to get the badge. Start a new thread and post a photo of the modified sak (scale swap not included) for thirty (30) consecutive days. Must start new thread with photos of multitools (Magazine/Catalogue type photos) Test,please ignore Must start a thread with a photo of at least five (5) of your watches Must post a step by step pictorial of a knife or multitool modification (scale swap not included) Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate  in Challenge thread and post a photo of a Buck 112 Ranger for thirty (30) consecutive days.

no Offline Vidar

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Re: How hard can it be?
Reply #13 on: December 24, 2018, 11:25:04 PM
Quote from: MTMatt on December 24, 2018, 11:20:10 AM
... regarding that I've observed the following interesting design differences...

Interesting! :)  :tu:
"Simple is hard"
"Hard is hard too"
(Partial disclosure: I design tools for a living).
Merit Badges Start a new thread and post a photo of any gear for thirty (30) consecutive days during the MTo anniversary month.

Offline Old man Chris

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Re: How hard can it be?
Reply #14 on: December 26, 2018, 03:29:06 AM
Quote from: MTMatt on December 24, 2018, 10:55:51 AM
Quote from: zoidberg on December 24, 2018, 07:57:56 AM
Quote from: Fuzzbucket on December 23, 2018, 12:04:09 PM
Don't cut :

High tensile wire
Steel cable/rope

 :facepalm:

Or fish hooks, they are the devil.

Didn't know about fish hooks being that tough.
Good info, thanks Zoid  :salute:

1. Tinsel = OK , HRC like brass
2. Fish hook = Not ok , HRC > 40

Some High end Japanese made hooks have very good metalurgy . Stainless steel hooks for salt water use can be pretty tuff as well .Any mild steel , of reasonable diameter should be fine . Very important , cut straight , don’t go in and start twisting . I would try to avoid stainless , or braided cables as much as possible .

Chris
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 03:41:09 AM by Old man Chris »

ie Offline McStitchy

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Re: How hard can it be?
Reply #15 on: December 26, 2018, 10:48:49 AM
Thanks Chris, will stay away from cutting Fish hooks.  :salute:
 I think it's a bad idea anyways  :think:
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ie Offline McStitchy

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Re: How hard can it be?
Reply #16 on: December 26, 2018, 10:54:01 AM
So basically, since we've figured the hardness limits of...

HRC 40 = Mohs 4.37

Combined with the table below...

Lead: 1.5
Tin: 1.5
Zinc: 2.5
Gold: 2.5-3
Silver: 2.5-3
Aluminum: 2.5-3
Copper: 3
Brass: 3
Bronze: 3
Nickel: 4
Platinum: 4-4.5
Steel: 4-4.5
Iron: 4.5
Palladium: 4.75
Rhodium: 6
Titanium: 6
Hardened steel: 7-8
Tungsten: 7.5
Tungsten carbide: 8.5-9

... would you guys have any real life examples to the different hardness levels?

Where in that list would a paper-clip be? Or a pin?  :dunno:
Merit Badges Build your own version of an MRE using off-the-shelf components, post a photo of the completed MRE and store at room temperature for 6 days or more. Consume the MRE after the storage period and post pictures and descriptions of the contents. Start a new thread and post a photo of the 110 knife for thirty (30) consecutive days. Using EDC items randomly selected with a poker hand, post a photo of your EDC or a component of the EDC that got used during the course of the day for 4 weeks (or 30 consecutive days) Participate  in Challenge thread and post a photo of your EDC or a component of the EDC that got used during the course of the day for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate and contribute in Challenge thread and post a photo of a different blade each day for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate  in Challenge thread and post a photo of a SAK Soldier for thirty (30) consecutive days. You have one of your pictures in the 2020 calendar or in top three of the calendar poll in any month of the given year. Participate  in a Challenge thread and post a photo of a LM Pocket Survival Tool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of any gear for thirty (30) consecutive days during the MTo anniversary month. Start a new thread and post a photo of a traditional folder for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Must put something in order and provide link to the post. Post your pocket dump photos then challenge two more members who must post their pocket dump photos within 24hrs for you to get the badge. Start a new thread and post a photo of the modified sak (scale swap not included) for thirty (30) consecutive days. Must start new thread with photos of multitools (Magazine/Catalogue type photos) Test,please ignore Must start a thread with a photo of at least five (5) of your watches Must post a step by step pictorial of a knife or multitool modification (scale swap not included) Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate  in Challenge thread and post a photo of a Buck 112 Ranger for thirty (30) consecutive days.

us Offline theonew

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Re: How hard can it be?
Reply #17 on: December 26, 2018, 04:52:16 PM
I think paper clips are usually made of mild steel so probably around 40. I can say I have cut medium sized ones using a LM PS4 with no damage, though with considerable hand effort involved.

ie Offline McStitchy

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Re: How hard can it be?
Reply #18 on: December 26, 2018, 05:27:39 PM
Thanks Theo... great info  :salute:
Merit Badges Build your own version of an MRE using off-the-shelf components, post a photo of the completed MRE and store at room temperature for 6 days or more. Consume the MRE after the storage period and post pictures and descriptions of the contents. Start a new thread and post a photo of the 110 knife for thirty (30) consecutive days. Using EDC items randomly selected with a poker hand, post a photo of your EDC or a component of the EDC that got used during the course of the day for 4 weeks (or 30 consecutive days) Participate  in Challenge thread and post a photo of your EDC or a component of the EDC that got used during the course of the day for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate and contribute in Challenge thread and post a photo of a different blade each day for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate  in Challenge thread and post a photo of a SAK Soldier for thirty (30) consecutive days. You have one of your pictures in the 2020 calendar or in top three of the calendar poll in any month of the given year. Participate  in a Challenge thread and post a photo of a LM Pocket Survival Tool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of any gear for thirty (30) consecutive days during the MTo anniversary month. Start a new thread and post a photo of a traditional folder for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Must put something in order and provide link to the post. Post your pocket dump photos then challenge two more members who must post their pocket dump photos within 24hrs for you to get the badge. Start a new thread and post a photo of the modified sak (scale swap not included) for thirty (30) consecutive days. Must start new thread with photos of multitools (Magazine/Catalogue type photos) Test,please ignore Must start a thread with a photo of at least five (5) of your watches Must post a step by step pictorial of a knife or multitool modification (scale swap not included) Start a new thread and post a photo of the multitool for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate  in Challenge thread and post a photo of a Buck 112 Ranger for thirty (30) consecutive days.

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