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Lets talk iconic knives. 1809

Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 16,401
Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #120 on: January 11, 2019, 06:58:26 PM »
In the case ( pun intended ) of the Sod-Buster/Sodbuster.  This is a name trademarked by the company Case for this recognizable pattern but origins however point elsewhere.  The simplest approach is Sodbuster as we now know it would be considered.

Iconic knife.  There is no prerequisite to own the knife.  You do not need to know its origins or history.  You do not need to know particular makers.  Examples are the Bowie knife and Barlow.  I should have included Sodbuster as well  :think:.

EDIT to add the following.

Laguiole is interesting.  While the name is neither Brand or trade name its a known type/style of knife.  Whats also interesting, its often just called Laguiole, which is a small village in France.  This knife is produced in a few variations with respect to blade only models and those with corkscrews possibly others I am unaware of.  My understanding is only those produced in France in either Theirs or Laguiole are Laguiole knives. 

       
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 07:14:56 PM by Aloha007 »

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Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #121 on: January 11, 2019, 07:12:03 PM »
And 'Stockman' perhaps?
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 16,401
Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #122 on: January 11, 2019, 07:21:38 PM »
And 'Stockman' perhaps?

One of those patterns that would be hard to nail down to originator or any other pertinent information however certainly a very well known pattern to most folks in the US.  With tradionals I wonder if the average knife person could easily recognize this pattern and call it by name?  I certainly dont represent the average knife person since with some knives I am to the left of average and others I am on the right.     

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Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #123 on: January 11, 2019, 07:30:35 PM »

One of those patterns that would be hard to nail down to originator or any other pertinent information however certainly a very well known pattern to most folks in the US.  With tradionals I wonder if the average knife person could easily recognize this pattern and call it by name?  I certainly dont represent the average knife person since with some knives I am to the left of average and others I am on the right.     


The origins are surely lost to time. I'd love to know who first came up with this pattern and named it "Stockman".

Still, this is a pattern that has deep roots in the USA. It was a go-to pattern from coast-to-coast and more or less defined "jack knife" for many working people. I certainly grew up thinking of it as the ideal jack knife (obviously I was wrong-ish).

It has also been made and is still made by major manufacturers, e.g. Case or Buck, and smaller makers as well. So, old pattern (late 1800's?), widely used and idolized, still in production. Still a brilliant pattern of Jack Knife.

Forced to chose, I'd say the Barlow is more Iconic, but the Stockman seems like a close second. Trapper would be in the mix there, too.
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 16,401
Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #124 on: January 11, 2019, 07:43:24 PM »
Is anyone unhappy with this working list?  This is our list so please add to or take away and lets discuss why.  The asterisks are to denote thoughts that I brought up.  No asterisks are needed as this is just a working list.  I am hoping one or all of these knives can be imagined by you.  That you could pick them out from a vast array of knives.  I'd hope the average knife person could as well. 
 

Swiss Army Knife. *not model specific both Wenger and Victorinox   
Buck 110
Opinel                   * not model specific
Mora                     * not model specific either classic or companion
Laguiole               * style
Sodbuster            *not brand specific
Bowie                   * style specific
Balisong/butterfly knife
USMC KaBar fighting knife
Stiletto/Switchblade
Rambo knife        * style specific
Barlow

Question? Is Leatherman a knife?  Would Leatherman make anyones list?  Non specific of course.  Like Swiss Army Knife I think Leatherman is used to describe the MT in many cases not a specific MT.       

 


 

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Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 16,401
Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #125 on: January 11, 2019, 07:49:10 PM »

One of those patterns that would be hard to nail down to originator or any other pertinent information however certainly a very well known pattern to most folks in the US.  With tradionals I wonder if the average knife person could easily recognize this pattern and call it by name?  I certainly dont represent the average knife person since with some knives I am to the left of average and others I am on the right.     


The origins are surely lost to time. I'd love to know who first came up with this pattern and named it "Stockman".

Still, this is a pattern that has deep roots in the USA. It was a go-to pattern from coast-to-coast and more or less defined "jack knife" for many working people. I certainly grew up thinking of it as the ideal jack knife (obviously I was wrong-ish).

It has also been made and is still made by major manufacturers, e.g. Case or Buck, and smaller makers as well. So, old pattern (late 1800's?), widely used and idolized, still in production. Still a brilliant pattern of Jack Knife.

Forced to chose, I'd say the Barlow is more Iconic, but the Stockman seems like a close second. Trapper would be in the mix there, too.

You get no argument from me.  These 3 would tend to be included in any conversation on traditional knives ( possibly US only ).   I further say these 3 would be included on any list of popular if not iconic patterns for me.  I have a trapper myself and like the pattern.  I also have 2 Case Sodbusters and a Texas Toothpick.  Lovely knifes all of them.  Heck I'd like to argue for the Texas Toothpick  :tu: 

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Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #126 on: January 11, 2019, 07:53:40 PM »
I think the F-S Commando knife has to be include on the list.
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Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #127 on: January 11, 2019, 07:54:09 PM »
And the Khukuri (Kukri).  :tu:
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 16,401
Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #128 on: January 11, 2019, 07:58:52 PM »
Swiss Army Knife. *not model specific both Wenger and Victorinox   
Buck 110
Opinel                   * not model specific
Mora                     * not model specific either classic or companion
Laguiole               * style
Sodbuster            *not brand specific
Bowie                   * style specific
Balisong/butterfly knife
USMC KaBar fighting knife
Stiletto/Switchblade
Rambo knife        * style specific
Barlow
Puukko                * while the Mora and this are similar I believe this knife stands alone as does the Mora
Fairbairn–Sykes fighting knife
Khukuri

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Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #129 on: January 12, 2019, 05:50:15 AM »
From many years ago, growing in a culture where everybody had a knife.

Most would have a penknife, a slim knife with one or two thin blades. Usually from Sheffield or Japan.

Many would have basic friction folders, usually hand made, with thin slicing blades.

SAKs were less common because of cost and having more tools than needed.

US knives like buck, stockman etc. only became known to me in the past few years, through MTO mainly. I did have a Chinese vaguely 110 lookalike 30 years ago so the look was there.

Penknives and basic friction folders were the iconic ones, still made today.

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Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 16,401
Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #130 on: January 12, 2019, 07:05:24 AM »
What I've been calling simple honest knives is what I'm imagining the knife you are talking about.  The Mercator and Higonokami come to mind as does the later Douk Douk.  Just simple straight forward cutting tools.

   

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Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #131 on: January 12, 2019, 11:45:29 AM »
Glad to see the switchblade has made the list.  I'm not going to argue that it's good knife or one that has stood the test of time, but it is instantly recognisable.


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Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #132 on: January 12, 2019, 03:49:20 PM »
Swiss Army Knife. *not model specific both Wenger and Victorinox   
Buck 110
Opinel                   * not model specific
Mora                     * not model specific either classic or companion
Laguiole               * style
Sodbuster            *not brand specific
Bowie                   * style specific
Balisong/butterfly knife
USMC KaBar fighting knife
Stiletto/Switchblade
Rambo knife        * style specific
Barlow
Puukko                * while the Mora and this are similar I believe this knife stands alone as does the Mora
Fairbairn–Sykes fighting knife
Khukuri

I dare say that a truly iconic knife should be recognizable by non-knife fans.

The "Swiss Army Knife" the "Buck Knife", for example.

Things like Sodbuster, Stockman and Trapper really just are lost on the average bear. Any and all of those used to be called a Jackknife. While the SAK and the Buck have reached a level of celebrity.

I think if we are not careful, as knife people, this list will soon include every permutation of the jackknife, etc

I'm stuck between the puuko and the Mora, as the puuko is a specific design, and the Mora (seems to be) one specific manufacturers take on that design. I know many knife people who never even heard of Mora

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Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 16,401
Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #133 on: January 12, 2019, 04:27:03 PM »
The switchblade is one that many non knife people and certainly the average knife person has seen or knows.  I even remember the switchblade comb. 

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Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 16,401
Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #134 on: January 12, 2019, 04:36:59 PM »
Certain patterns or specific patterns of traditional knives and specifically US ones I also hesitate on.  The goal is to name ones average knife people know readily and are easily recognizable.  I wasn't around traditional knives as a kid.  My average knife knowledge began like dks, online.  I think the average knife person is someone who owns a few knives and has browsed or researched knives in a variety of way.  Along the way they have discovered knives that keep popping up time and time again.  Their knowledge isn't necessarily between collector and non knife person.  Its somewhere a bit more up stream  :dunno: 

I know regionally and globally this presents some challenges.  Which for me makes this discussion all the more interesting and fun.     

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Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #135 on: January 12, 2019, 04:53:33 PM »
So Spyderco isn't in the list? Even if the spydie hole is copied high and low?
Or the Sebenza, which was the knife that introduced the framelock?

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Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #136 on: January 12, 2019, 05:02:59 PM »
one knife I might have missed on the list but to me it seems pretty iconic is the Barlow knife. it goes back centuries and being a knife of British origin, wouldn't be that much of a surprise if people would be familiar with it in all corners the the once mighty empire


EDIT: checked the list again and saw it was on there

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Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 16,401
Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #137 on: January 12, 2019, 05:10:02 PM »
When I began looking at knives my knowledge was primarily kitchen knives.  I as aware of the Buck 110, Rambo knife, USMC Kabar tho not by name, Bowie knife, SAK, Khukuri, and some swords.  I guess those would be iconic for me.  That however was the true knife newbie.  I'd still consider myself new as I am not one who researches knives or is up to date on the next super steel or maker. 

When I t ry to fence in where the average knife person would stand is not easy for me.  In some ways I feel like that person.  I was not aware of the Mora or Opinel however my lack of knowing these I feel was due to where I was in my knowledge.  The Opinel in particular was one I'd run across time and time again in just my basic of browsing.   The Mora was also one that when looking at camp knives continued to pop up.  My not knowing these was IMO nothing against them rather more a matter of where I was in my knife knowledge, newbie. 

Maybe we should try to determine who is the average knife person?     

 

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Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 16,401
Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #138 on: January 12, 2019, 05:11:18 PM »
one knife I might have missed on the list but to me it seems pretty iconic is the Barlow knife. it goes back centuries and being a knife of British origin, wouldn't be that much of a surprise if people would be familiar with it in all corners the the once mighty empire


EDIT: checked the list again and saw it was on there

I agree the Barlow pattern is very recognizable.  Some might very well only know it by sight rather than name. 

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Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 16,401
Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #139 on: January 12, 2019, 05:16:07 PM »
So Spyderco isn't in the list? Even if the spydie hole is copied high and low?
Or the Sebenza, which was the knife that introduced the framelock?

The Spyderco is a tricky one for me.  I'd personally say it should be on the list.  While the average knife person may not know specifically what model they would almost always attribute the hole and Spyder logo and blade shape to the company.  So for me the company is whats more recognizable to the average knife person and not a particular knife.  Some have said the Delica tho would the Endura be mistaken by the average knife person?  The PM2?  Would the average knife person know the PM2 is an acronym for Paramilitary 2?  Would they mistake the Military for the PM2? 

This becomes an interesting situation to me. 

I am not the gate keeper of the list so all are more than free to add subtract and we can discuss the merits as they come. 

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Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #140 on: January 12, 2019, 05:40:50 PM »
So Spyderco isn't in the list? Even if the spydie hole is copied high and low?
Or the Sebenza, which was the knife that introduced the framelock?

The Spyderco is a tricky one for me.  I'd personally say it should be on the list.  While the average knife person may not know specifically what model they would almost always attribute the hole and Spyder logo and blade shape to the company.  So for me the company is whats more recognizable to the average knife person and not a particular knife.  Some have said the Delica tho would the Endura be mistaken by the average knife person?  The PM2?  Would the average knife person know the PM2 is an acronym for Paramilitary 2?  Would they mistake the Military for the PM2? 

This becomes an interesting situation to me. 

I am not the gate keeper of the list so all are more than free to add subtract and we can discuss the merits as they come.

For me, Spyderco is a bit like SAK.
The SAK archetype is a red knife with a few layers containing tools.
The Spyderco archetype is a pointy single blade folder with hole in the blade for opening.

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Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #141 on: January 12, 2019, 06:11:46 PM »
I agree with you, microbe, but even in the USA I 'm not sure how many people really know Spyderco.

For me, the Spydie Endura is the iconic Spyderco....but I don't know that any Spyderco has risen to the level of recognition or fame that the Bowie or Barlow have (at least in their day).  :dunno:
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Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #142 on: January 12, 2019, 06:50:53 PM »
So Spyderco isn't in the list? Even if the spydie hole is copied high and low?
Or the Sebenza, which was the knife that introduced the framelock?

The Spyderco is a tricky one for me.  I'd personally say it should be on the list.  While the average knife person may not know specifically what model they would almost always attribute the hole and Spyder logo and blade shape to the company.  So for me the company is whats more recognizable to the average knife person and not a particular knife.  Some have said the Delica tho would the Endura be mistaken by the average knife person?  The PM2?  Would the average knife person know the PM2 is an acronym for Paramilitary 2?  Would they mistake the Military for the PM2? 

This becomes an interesting situation to me. 

I am not the gate keeper of the list so all are more than free to add subtract and we can discuss the merits as they come.

I believe Spyderco should be on the list. All of the innovations of the brand, materials and style swept the police and rescue world by storm in the early 90's

Whether non knife people know it or not, the Spydie is responsible for a smurf-ton of the copy cats out there.

Wow. This list is harder and harder to quantify without getting into the weeds.

Good discussion, though.
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Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #143 on: January 12, 2019, 07:05:45 PM »
what about the Tanto?
The knife, not the americanized blade shape.

It is not as well known as the Katana, but one does not exist in history without the other, they are a set.  :pok:
Most people would draw a tanto I guess when asked for a "Samurai Knife", a "Ninja Knife (not throwing knife)", a "Japanese combat knife", a "World War Japanese soldier knife" or such,  :think:
or not?

Is the Americanized Tanto more iconic that the original one?  :dunno: Does the Tanto blade shape overshadow the original curved point?   ???

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Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #144 on: January 12, 2019, 09:17:03 PM »
Is the Americanized Tanto more iconic that the original one?  :dunno: Does the Tanto blade shape overshadow the original curved point?   ???

My guess is that the American version is more recognizable than the originals, as found in Japan.
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Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #145 on: January 12, 2019, 10:32:59 PM »
I missed page 4, so it may have already been discussed at length - but it seems what we've come down to is "culturally significant" which (depending on who you are in the knife world, and how important you think the knife world is, may or may not be a satisfactory answer)

We've settled on knives that Joe Average would recognise on sight as "iconic" - much of this has to do with appearance in hollywood. (Which is why the USMC Ka-Bar is more recognisable that the USAF knife - it has appeared on screen far more often)

(to draw a comparison to firearms - everyone would recognise a "Desert Eagle" if they saw one - but does that mean, internally to the firearms interest world, they are considered iconic or important in either design, function, or performance? or that they have "earned" their status, other than with some well placed shots (heh) in feature films?)

The 1911 is also reasonable recognisable to all and sundry - because every GI in every war movie ever made carries the thing (tom hanks uses one to blow up a tank....sort of....)

the Browning Hi Power is just as well used, by just as many nations (including the US), in just as many wars - but for whatever mysterious reason is far less recognised by laymen, and features in far fewer video games. - Does this make is less "iconic" ?


So, back to knives - unfortunately for designers (and sales departments) everywhere - innovation and design brilliance has not always equaled distribution and brand awareness, but that does not necessarily mean respect should not be given to those marques or models that brought key features into the limelight, even if they didn't necessary garner the most profit from it.


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Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #146 on: January 12, 2019, 10:52:31 PM »
So, back to knives - unfortunately for designers (and sales departments) everywhere - innovation and design brilliance has not always equaled distribution and brand awareness, but that does not necessarily mean respect should not be given to those marques or models that brought key features into the limelight, even if they didn't necessary garner the most profit from it.

Good points, Monster.

Maybe we need a different category for that: "Influential Knives" or "Game Changers" or just simply "Brilliant Knives".

There are several reason to prefer the USAF Pilot knife over the USMC KaBar for real-world carry/use, but it's the KaBar that gets lionized and becomes the Iconic Knife.
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Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #147 on: January 12, 2019, 11:52:06 PM »
I think we're getting further and further from the original defined conditions (factory-made, still in production etc...) but it sure is an interesting discussion.

The line between knife and sword is hard to define... A blade is a blade and I think they could all be iconic.

I was surprised nobody mentioned the Sgian-Dubh. I'm not Scottish but my Canadian side has Scottish ancestry and I wish I can buy a nice Sgian-Dubh over there one day :D
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 11:54:21 PM by Syem »
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Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #148 on: January 13, 2019, 12:51:13 AM »
Is anyone unhappy with this working list?  This is our list so please add to or take away and lets discuss why.  The asterisks are to denote thoughts that I brought up.  No asterisks are needed as this is just a working list.  I am hoping one or all of these knives can be imagined by you.  That you could pick them out from a vast array of knives.  I'd hope the average knife person could as well. 
 

Swiss Army Knife. *not model specific both Wenger and Victorinox   
Buck 110
Opinel                   * not model specific
Mora                     * not model specific either classic or companion
Laguiole               * style
Sodbuster            *not brand specific
Bowie                   * style specific
Balisong/butterfly knife
USMC KaBar fighting knife
Stiletto/Switchblade
Rambo knife        * style specific
Barlow

Question? Is Leatherman a knife?  Would Leatherman make anyones list?  Non specific of course.  Like Swiss Army Knife I think Leatherman is used to describe the MT in many cases not a specific MT.     
The so called Rambo knife is not something I would consider for the list. It gained it's fame in movie, it was was sold in discount stores every where. It never did get to the status of a serious knife, more novelty item.

As far as Leatherman goes, it's a multitool. Leatherman did make the multitools popular and deserves credit for that but not as a knife.

When I think swiss army knife the pioneer and farmer comes to mind, like Camullus scout type knives. There's comes a point when you add to many layers,  it looses it's knife status and becomes a multitool SAK.
The swiss champ is an iconic SAK but no longer a knife.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 02:46:35 AM by Dean51 »
Global Moderator Zombie Apprentice Posts: 16,401
Re: Lets talk iconic knives.
« Reply #149 on: January 13, 2019, 02:29:03 AM »
This is really getting interesting.  Lets talk a look at closing the gaps if we can.  I posted this a page or so back.

 
Iconic could be described in the loosest terms for the average knife person ( see below as a working definition ) as the following.

PLEASE HELP WITH THE GUIDLINES.  Once we get a better working set of guidelines we can get back to the fun of picking knives for a list. 

1. Easily and readily recognizable.   

2. There is no prerequisite to own the knife.

3. You do not need to know its origins or history

4. You do not need to know particular makers.  Examples are the Bowie knife and Barlow.

Since we do come from many parts of the world lets create a working list of knives since certain styles will be "iconic" for specific regions and people.  Once we get a better collaborative guideline to whats iconic we can always whittle the list down later.  I am all in favor of adding a knife to the list if someone feels strongly about it.  This is a discussion and every knife is important tho not every knife will make the list.  I do think this list will ultimately be shorter than I originally thought.       

An average knife person might be described as someone who owns a few different style of knives.  A person who has an interest in knives.  A person who has looked at variety of knives online or locally.  A person who carries a knife and uses a knife other than in the kitchen.

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