Is the Mora Garberg a Puukko?

[AlephZero]

Well, I guess we have to agree to disagree 

[Fuzzbucket]

And note, whether to not I'd buy a Canadian Bowie, doesn't make a difference to whether or not a knife could be called a Bowie.

A SAK made in Germany could still be called a SAK.

A Mora made in Taiwan would still be called a Mora.

Weren't a fair few of the old traditional Bowies made in Sheffield, Joseph Rogers etc...?

[Nix]

I believe most of the original Bowies were made in England.

[Fuzzbucket]

That's what I really wanted to say... but I didn't want to rub it in. 

[Nix]

Thanks....so tactful of you.   

[styx]

and i believe i'm thoroughly confused now. they cut, and have comfortable handles - good enough for me

[Steinar]

But, what exactly defines a Puukko, and how is that different from a Tollekniv? 

For my part, it's as simple as when I see a Finnish puukko and a Norwegian traditional, calling the Norwegian knife a puukko seems "wrong". I don't know enough about knives to put it into words in a proper manner, they don't look the same. They are similar compared to e.g. an American hunter and have much of the same philosophy, but to me they simply look different. It's like the old joke about porn, I can't define what it is, but I know it when I see it. 

How is this Helle different from a Puukko?

(Image removed from quote.)

Well, we can start with how it's different from the Norwegian traditional. A tollekniv is an all-round knife with a predisposition for woodworking. The handle should be shaped like the body of a fat mountain trout (no blade guard or anything like that), it should be approximately 10-11 cm long (some people go as far as simply stating 10.4 cm). The blade should be a straight extension of the line of the handle, it should neither dip down in the edge direction like many hunters nor bow backwards like a steak knife. The cross section of the handle should be roughly egg shaped, with the point in the same direction as the knife edge. (If the cross section of the handle is an ellipsis, it's really not following the traditional philosophy.) What am I getting at here? The Helle above is a lovely knife for mountain trips, but it's really a modern extension of traditional designs, it's not following the tradition as such. I get that people want a word for “knifes the Nordics like and pair well with an axe in the woods”, but that means puukko in English means something different than in Norwegian and Finnish, I think. But as I said, I'm not not knowledgeable enough to give a quantitative definition, to me it's just that a puukko looks different than a Mora. (And the Garberg looks different from both. )

There are hardly made Norwegian traditionals any more. Most Norwegian custom makers produce knives in a style pioneered by Aasmund Voldbakken.

[Nix]

Very interesting, Steinar. I think you're right that the word "Puukko" is well known outside Scandinavia and, therefore, is prone to being applied to many Scandinavian knives of similar appearance/design. My confusion about what constitutes a Puukko now seems worse, rather than improved. Aside from the limited definition "a knife made in Finland", I'm more at a loss than ever. Perhaps it's best to leave the definition as "a Finnish Knife".

For curiosity's sake, could you post up a photo of what you would say is a traditional Norwegian knife? 

[Steinar]

Something like this, for instance:



I agree it's pretty confusing, especially since even a small country like Norway have many local traditions, each maker has their own style, etc, etc.

Source for picture: http://kniver.blogspot.com/search/label/Bj%C3%B8rn%20Einarsen

[Nix]

Well that's just lovely.   

[Gareth]

I voted "No, it's not a Puukko, it's a Mora knife"

Simply put, it's similar in use, function and partly tradition, but it and also the Norwegian Tollekniv are their own entities.

So, I would say Garberg is modernized Mora knife (Mora is much more than just a trade mark) 


Also, no Finn would ever call a Mora "Puukko" and vice versa for the Swedes 

Sent fra min FRD-L09 via Tapatalk

This is what I would say as well (but with less authority than these two ).  For it to be a Puukko it really would have to be made in Finland.  Even putting that aside I'm not certain the full tang wouldn't disqualify IMO.

[Gareth]

BTW, if anyone want to drool over some Puukko that are, IMO, works of art in steel, wool and leather; have a look at some of JT Palikko's work.

[styx]

Something like this, for instance:

(Image removed from quote.)

I agree it's pretty confusing, especially since even a small country like Norway have many local traditions, each maker has their own style, etc, etc.

Source for picture: http://kniver.blogspot.com/search/label/Bj%C3%B8rn%20Einarsen

"small" country. somehow I think it is relative o one's perspective. but when it comes to traditions, i know exactly what you mean

[Gerhard Gerber]

I voted "No, it's not a Puukko, it's a Mora knife"

Simply put, it's similar in use, function and partly tradition, but it and also the Norwegian Tollekniv are their own entities.

So, I would say Garberg is modernized Mora knife (Mora is much more than just a trade mark) 


Also, no Finn would ever call a Mora "Puukko" and vice versa for the Swedes 

Based on that lesson I would change my vote to NO 

[Aloha]

Whats interesting is Helle doesn't list any Puukkos on their site.  I may have missed something but I don't think so.  I have a Helle Viking which by the way is a lovely knife.  The Vikings blade resembles the blade of the Tollekniv and other knives mentioned.   While we'd like a catch all word to group these similar knives they are their own thing.   The subtle differences or simply their cultural identity.   It could be that the hundred years parallel development each has resembled one another.       

Can a Traditional Puukko be produced outside Finnland?  Can a Traditional Puukko be produced by non Finns?  Here's my very personal opinion,  No.  Its should be called "Puukko style", "Puukko inspired", "In the tradition of the Puukko", or something along those lines.      

There are for many very personal connections to culture, tradition, and history.  For me there is something to be said about the soul of certain "things".  Theres something to be said for the heart and passion that goes into certain "things".  Is this quantifiable?  I don't honestly know or actually care to be honest ( sorry if this sounds harsh  ).  What I do know is, however minute the differences, even if those minute differences are where the item is made, the Puukko, the Tollekniv, the Morakniv are their own thing.  IF only because the people of these wonderful countries say so. 

Sometimes the whole IS greater than the sum of their parts.  In some cases the whole has to include; culture, tradition, and history. 

If a group of American workers went to Finland and made knives that were identical to historical Finnish Puukkos would they be Puukkos? 

IF a cat has her kitten in an oven, does it make them biscuits?  This idea of a what a Puukko is is not one of semantics.  A knife is a knife is a knife which very well may be true however while all Puukko are knives not all knives are Puukkos.         

I hope this post doesn't come off as snooty or arrogant  .  I honestly have a passion for any country, people, culture, and their identity and the things that they identify with. 

         

[Greg Jones]

Great write up Nix and congrats on the badge, I voted I don't know 

[AlephZero]

Whats interesting is Helle doesn't list any Puukkos on their site.  I may have missed something but I don't think so.  I have a Helle Viking which by the way is a lovely knife.  The Vikings blade resembles the blade of the Tollekniv and other knives mentioned.   While we'd like a catch all word to group these similar knives they are their own thing.   The subtle differences or simply their cultural identity.   It could be that the hundred years parallel development each has resembled one another.       

Can a Traditional Puukko be produced outside Finnland?  Can a Traditional Puukko be produced by non Finns?  Here's my very personal opinion,  No.  Its should be called "Puukko style", "Puukko inspired", "In the tradition of the Puukko", or something along those lines.      

There are for many very personal connections to culture, tradition, and history.  For me there is something to be said about the soul of certain "things".  Theres something to be said for the heart and passion that goes into certain "things".  Is this quantifiable?  I don't honestly know or actually care to be honest ( sorry if this sounds harsh  ).  What I do know is, however minute the differences, even if those minute differences are where the item is made, the Puukko, the Tollekniv, the Morakniv are their own thing.  IF only because the people of these wonderful countries say so. 

Sometimes the whole IS greater than the sum of their parts.  In some cases the whole has to include; culture, tradition, and history. 

If a group of American workers went to Finland and made knives that were identical to historical Finnish Puukkos would they be Puukkos? 

IF a cat has her kitten in an oven, does it make them biscuits?  This idea of a what a Puukko is is not one of semantics.  A knife is a knife is a knife which very well may be true however while all Puukko are knives not all knives are Puukkos.         

I hope this post doesn't come off as snooty or arrogant  .  I honestly have a passion for any country, people, culture, and their identity and the things that they identify with. 

         

 

Puukko is very much a Finnish cultural symbol, just as much as Sisu or Sauna, neither can really be reproduced elsewhere...

I'd like to add that if you want to add some tag on Puukko-like knives, call em Scandis, that will cover Puukkos, Moras and Tolleknivs all, as they all have the Scandi grind 

[AlephZero]

Oh and Aloha...

[Nix]

Here's my very personal opinion,  No. 

So do you think that a Cold Steel Bowie knife (made in Taiwan) should be called a Bowie-style knife? 

I find it hard to believe that if Marttiini moved their production line to Taiwan, we'd all have to change our references for their knives to "bushcraft knives" or "Puukko-style knives". Is that what you are saying?  Would you say a Taiwanese-made Puukko, sold by Marttiini, is not "a genuine Puukko"?  That might sound a bit xenophobic, really.

Cultural symbols encompass more than knives. Should American pasta makers be allowed to call linguini, "linguini"?  Or should they be forced to label their product "Italian-style noodles"?

How far do you want to take this idea?

Regardless, I'd argue it may be too late. The rest of the world has already coopted the word "Puukko" to describe a style of Scandinavian knife. That horse is out of the proverbial barn. We call linguini, linguini. Languages are not static or fixed, but evolve, and "Puukko" has been adopted by the English language.

AZ pointed out that the modern Finnish use of the word "Puukko" gets applied to all sorts of knives. It is no longer specific. All non-kitchen knives are Puukkos now, and all Puukkos are knives. Earlier I showed an example of a Finnish web site that referred to the Garberg as a "Puukko".  That was a Finnish web site referring to a Swedish knife.

To me, it appears there is no consistent use of the term "Puukko", either in Finland or the English-speaking parts of the world. And I think it's too late to try to hit the reset button on that one. The meaning of the name is evolving, has evolved. Contemporary knife makers outside Scandinavia are making and selling knives called Puukkos. Knives that may or may not look like traditional Scandinavian knives. The idea of the Puukko has taken on a life of its own. An idea is not defined by place or race.

IF a cat has her kitten in an oven, does it make them biscuits? 
         

Depends on the temperature of the oven. Assuming the oven is OFF, no, they'd be kittens. Just as a Spyderco Puukko, made in the ovens of Colorado, is called a Puukko. At 450º.....it'd be another story.

[styx]

i still wouldn't eat that. even with Cholula.... mmmm cookies with Cholula

[Don Pablo]

Now I'm wondering if my HMD phone is a Nokia.

[Aloha]

The Bowie is an interesting example.  From what I gather the Bowie as we now know it is not what Rezin designed or he himself said he designed.  It evolved as does many things certainly knives.  The Bowie knife is a very romanized knife and very American in the current iteration,  it doesn't however have cultural significance for me.  Its been said that the Bowie as we know it was a masterpiece of marketing.  Lots of people making their versions looking to make a buck.  Knives of Texas and particularly Mexican influence is more what the current iteration has become.  The knife described used by Jim Bowie was that of a "large butchers knife".  I don't think we'll ever know what that original Sandbar knife looked like so the legend, future iterations, his popularity of the time,  and more importantly his place in history has cemented what we now know the Bowie knife to be.         

So to me anything that resembles a Bowie as we know it now can made anywhere can be called a Bowie.  The knife Rezin described as a butchers knife was a commonly used to describe a wide array of large knives at that time.  In that sense I see how Puukko for many is used to describe any knife with a Scandinavian grind,  wood handle, no ricasso, flat spine, etc.  I completely understand. 

If we weren't confused already hows this.....  Yakutian knife is this also a Puukko?   .  In looking at knives that we could list as iconic I was running into Seax/Sax/Saex knives.  What was interesting was in the Old English definition it was used to refer to any knife.  In modern usage is used to describe a specific type of sword or knife.  I've seen some examples and they also look like Puukkos.  I was always confused because I've always thought a Seax was whats referred to as a broken back Seax  .   In Scandanavia the term Sax is used for scissors  .   I dont peak the language so what do I know.   

Whats my point  .  The fluidity of words and especially words that attempt to describe things to people across oceans as being similar is fully understandable.  I guess my approach for this particular item on this forum was my attempt to bring some specificity.  If someones says Puukko and you envision a particular knife wonderful.  Its actually pretty terrific that this particular knife is known across a wide swath of people.  Puukko, Tollekniv, Morakniv, Yakutian, all fantastic knives whatever word is used by the general knife person to describe them. 
 

I wont touch the pasta example being of Sicilian decent  .  Can we just call them noodles?  ( runs, hides ) Even tho my nona passed a while ago ( age 98 ) that wooden spoon she whacked us with at times still scares the heck out of me  . 


         

[Aloha]

i still wouldn't eat that. even with Cholula.... mmmm cookies with Cholula

I've never eaten kitten but I'm told you have to cook them puuuurfect for them to be any good 

I'll get my coat...................

[styx]

i still wouldn't eat that. even with Cholula.... mmmm cookies with Cholula

I've never eaten kitten but I'm told you have to cook them puuuurfect for them to be any good 

I'll get my coat...................

i'm a bit afraid to ask what that coat is made of. should I simply start singing the Cruella de Vil song?

[Aloha]

i still wouldn't eat that. even with Cholula.... mmmm cookies with Cholula

I've never eaten kitten but I'm told you have to cook them puuuurfect for them to be any good 

I'll get my coat...................

i'm a bit afraid to ask what that coat is made of. should I simply start singing the Cruella de Vil song?

 

[Nix]

I've never eaten kitten but I'm told you have to cook them puuuurfect for them to be any good 

I'll get my coat...................

 

[Aloha]

If my daughter ever read that she'd be disappointed.  Luna, her kitty, is her baby.  Sorry sweetheart  .

Lord, not only am I going to be visited by my nona from the beyond to whack me with a wooden spoon, my daughter is going to be giving me the look she learned from mom anytime I go near her cat. 

  

[Nix]

 

[CallsignBadger]

 

 

[Gareth]

I suppose I think of Puukko in much the same way as "Swiss Army Knife".  Where it's made is definitely part of what defines it.