Leatherman Free Series

[SirVicaLot]

I would have no problem paying $100 for an evolved PST, because that would be the exact tool i wanted.

I am surprised anyway that almost none of the big 4 have come up with a solution to the knife „problem“. Some places you can take a knife others you can‘t. Some places it can be lockable others it can‘t be. Why are we not seeing any removable knives? There must be a way to do it 

[sawman]

I would have no problem paying $100 for an evolved PST, because that would be the exact tool i wanted.

I am surprised anyway that almost none of the big 4 have come up with a solution to the knife „problem“. Some places you can take a knife others you can‘t. Some places it can be lockable others it can‘t be. Why are we not seeing any removable knives? There must be a way to do it 

If the manufacturers offered a user serviceable tool or at least offered it in enough configurations, I think it would have a decent chance.

[gerleatherberman]

SOG offered/offers tools that are really end-user customizable and serviceable. They still sell separate tools for their PocketPowerPlier, PowerLock, and PowerAssist platforms. The PPP is a great platform for a PST lover. 

[AimlessWanderer]

I would have no problem paying $100 for an evolved PST, because that would be the exact tool i wanted.

I am surprised anyway that almost none of the big 4 have come up with a solution to the knife „problem“. Some places you can take a knife others you can‘t. Some places it can be lockable others it can‘t be. Why are we not seeing any removable knives? There must be a way to do it 

The early Bear & Sons tools, solved it perfectly. Resurrect those with the fit and finish that we expect today. Essentially, a non-locking Spirit type affair.

[gerleatherberman]

Good point out, AW! 

Heck, a new Bear Jaws 155 can be had for $50 sometimes. The non-locking versions are still pretty good. Just avoid the locking versions, as they are a hot mess. 

[SirVicaLot]

Interesting thoughts, might have to look up these tools and see if there is something for me 

[AimlessWanderer]

They're quite "agricultural" in build quality. Tough as old boots, but rather unrefined. I had two different types in the past, and while they were good solid tools, they ended up getting sold on.

[Syncop8r]

Heck, a new Bear Jaws 155 can be had for $50 sometimes. The non-locking versions are still pretty good. Just avoid the locking versions, as they are a hot mess. 

Can a locking version be changed to a non-locking version by just removing the locks? Is that the only difference?

[gerleatherberman]

Can a locking version be changed to a non-locking version by just removing the locks? Is that the only difference?

Unfortunately removing the unlocking bars makes it lock like an OG SuperTool. But, with even more crude action required to work the tool. The non-locking versions are much better.
I have repaired and modified two of my locking Bears to work perfectly, but it takes a boat load of grinding, filing, and finger-crossing. 

[SirVicaLot]

Was trying to find some of the Bear and Son 155, but all i could find so far are the locking ones. Will keep scanning for one 

[gerleatherberman]

Eek. I hope they haven't cancelled the regular 155. 

[AimlessWanderer]

I think the locking versions are all that have been produced for several years now.

[gerleatherberman]

I think the locking versions are all that have been produced for several years now.

Seems to be the case. The last one I bought may have been one of the last of them, since it was picked up by my friend who goes to Jacksonville(a few hours north of me in the same state) every year.
I may put another 155L on the list at some point to see if their QC has gone up a bit. The 155EL I got last year was pretty good. Definitely better QC than the 156L I had to send back for repair the same day I got it, because the tools didn't lock on one handle. The lock didn't work, because the 90 degree bend on the retention tab was missing. 

[gustophersmob]

So far, it seems like positive feedback on the Free series owners.  I'm very curious to try one in person, though I doubt I'll buy as I just don't need one.  As I mentioned before, I'm glad LM is experimenting, and even if this first effort turns out to be somewhat uneven, I'm sure it will be refined.

I've not yet found an LM I like enough to keep, but the Free does seem to try and address what I have considered some major short comings: very inconsistent fit/finish and nail breaking access to tools being the big ones. I like that for the first time since really the PST, I'm excited about what LM is doing. As I've said before, I'm a big Victorinox fan boy, maybe to a fault, but I definitely hope LM succeeds with this design.

I also don't think the price is as crazy as it at first appears. First, LM has a bunch of non-recurring development and tooling costs they need to recoup, it's not like stamping out another tweak on the wave platform or something.  Also, it seems like they would have needed to make some considerable investment in their production processes to remove the variability and get the quality to a level that a design like this seems to require.  When I consider those things, the price doesn't seem too extreme.  Its like any other new thing, the first version is expensive and gets bought by the die-hard, niche fan base.  Once the costs are recovered and the bugs ironed out, the technology becomes cheaper and more available on a mass level.  Much like an iPhone, for instance.

Really, the prices aren't too far off those of the Swisstool and Spirit, which are many year old designs with (likely) fully amortized start up costs.  If,and in my mind its a big "if", LM can meet and maintain a Vic level of consistency, the prices would seem well earned.

[gerleatherberman]

  & 

Just some random thoughts on the prices:

I am actually a little surprised that the P2/P4 aren't a bit more expensive. Having full production in house, in the US, has to be a hit on potential profit. My hats off to them for that effort. Most of their other tools have a certain portion sourced outside to reduce costs.
Most US made pocket knives are somewhat expensive, and the P series has multiple knives worth of engineering, manufacturing, and labor involved. I'm sure they have automated some of the production, but there are still many costs to consider with complicated multitools with high QC and a great warranty.
The Free P2 is similar in cost to a US Spyderco or Benchmade folding knife, but with seriously more complications involved.
I hope that doesn't sound snooty on my part. I own 340+ tools from companies all over the world and do not try to imply any one country produces the best. It just makes me happy to see a company born in Portland, OR making their new tools completely in Portland, OR once again. 

[Monrogue]

So far, it seems like positive feedback on the Free series owners.  I'm very curious to try one in person, though I doubt I'll buy as I just don't need one.  As I mentioned before, I'm glad LM is experimenting, and even if this first effort turns out to be somewhat uneven, I'm sure it will be refined.

I've not yet found an LM I like enough to keep, but the Free does seem to try and address what I have considered some major short comings: very inconsistent fit/finish and nail breaking access to tools being the big ones. I like that for the first time since really the PST, I'm excited about what LM is doing. As I've said before, I'm a big Victorinox fan boy, maybe to a fault, but I definitely hope LM succeeds with this design.

I also don't think the price is as crazy as it at first appears. First, LM has a bunch of non-recurring development and tooling costs they need to recoup, it's not like stamping out another tweak on the wave platform or something.  Also, it seems like they would have needed to make some considerable investment in their production processes to remove the variability and get the quality to a level that a design like this seems to require.  When I consider those things, the price doesn't seem too extreme.  Its like any other new thing, the first version is expensive and gets bought by the die-hard, niche fan base.  Once the costs are recovered and the bugs ironed out, the technology becomes cheaper and more available on a mass level.  Much like an iPhone, for instance.

Really, the prices aren't too far off those of the Swisstool and Spirit, which are many year old designs with (likely) fully amortized start up costs.  If,and in my mind its a big "if", LM can meet and maintain a Vic level of consistency, the prices would seem well earned.

The fit and finish is very good as far as I can tell, and like you said, there’s likely very little room for variation in quality and consistency of the various implements in order for the design to function properly.

[Monrogue]

& 

Just some random thoughts on the prices:

I am actually a little surprised that the P2/P4 aren't a bit more expensive. Having full production in house, in the US, has to be a hit on potential profit. My hats off to them for that effort. Most of their other tools have a certain portion sourced outside to reduce costs.
Most US made pocket knives are somewhat expensive, and the P series has multiple knives worth of engineering, manufacturing, and labor involved. I'm sure they have automated some of the production, but there are still many costs to consider with complicated multitools with high QC and a great warranty.
The Free P2 is similar in cost to a US Spyderco or Benchmade folding knife, but with seriously more complications involved.
I hope that doesn't sound snooty on my part. I own 340+ tools from companies all over the world and do not try to imply any one country produces the best. It just makes me happy to see a company born in Portland, OR making their new tools completely in Portland, OR once again. 

Indeed, it’s nice to see “Leatherman USA” on the pliers and knife again

[AimlessWanderer]

So far, it seems like positive feedback on the Free series owners.  I'm very curious to try one in person, though I doubt I'll buy as I just don't need one. 

I'll certainly not be buying, even if I had the cash (I don't), because it's not offering me personally anything I need and don't already have, solution wise. It may well do so for someone else, for whom replaceable cutters or one hand driver access, for example, might be worthwhile additions. There's also design aspects, that are perfectly clear without the need to handle it, which would be a disadvantage to me personally, which I've previously highlighted.

Cost wise, they can invest as much as they want, but if it wouldn't give me as a user, a tangible improvement in performance, the new technology is added cost, but not added value. Fitting a regular screwdriver with a pentagonal cross section titanium extrusion shaft, would be a lavish technical advance from a standard hot worked steel bar... but would it turn screws any better? My £200+ D2 bladed, ingenious backspring folder, with pivot bearing and labour intensive construction that I hardly use, because my £30 folders simply do the job better, is not a scenario that I would want to repeat. I'm not saying all this new fangled gizmology is utterly worthless to everyone, it just doesn't hold any value to this one user.

[gerleatherberman]

Indeed, it’s nice to see “Leatherman USA” on the pliers and knife again

[McStitchy]

Just a thought...I think cost & Labor wise a comparison to Victorinox Swisstools/Spirit is ok. They produce in-house in Switzerland 

Here in Europe the prices for Leatherman tools are already often too high. The P2/P4 are topping even that and are just not justify able to buy for me at these prices.

[gerleatherberman]

 
I don't know what could be done about European sales, and out-of-country costs as a whole. But, it would be nice if LM could get the prices down a bit.

Only thing about SwissTools is the high level of automation has been paid for over 20 years ago. Their costs are mostly materials, warranty and QC at this point.

[gustophersmob]

I'll certainly not be buying, even if I had the cash (I don't), because it's not offering me personally anything I need and don't already have, solution wise. It may well do so for someone else, for whom replaceable cutters or one hand driver access, for example, might be worthwhile additions. There's also design aspects, that are perfectly clear without the need to handle it, which would be a disadvantage to me personally, which I've previously highlighted.

Cost wise, they can invest as much as they want, but if it wouldn't give me as a user, a tangible improvement in performance, the new technology is added cost, but not added value. Fitting a regular screwdriver with a pentagonal cross section titanium extrusion shaft, would be a lavish technical advance from a standard hot worked steel bar... but would it turn screws any better? My £200+ D2 bladed, ingenious backspring folder, with pivot bearing and labour intensive construction that I hardly use, because my £30 folders simply do the job better, is not a scenario that I would want to repeat. I'm not saying all this new fangled gizmology is utterly worthless to everyone, it just doesn't hold any value to this one user.

I agree, they don’t offer anything that would make me personally buy one, at least by at the current price. I like the idea of one handed access to all the tools, and if I used a plier based tool more, that could be a useful feature. Overall, i appreciate that they are trying something new.

[gustophersmob]

I don't know what could be done about European sales, and out-of-country costs as a whole. But, it would be nice if LM could get the prices down a bit.

Only thing about SwissTools is the high level of automation has been paid for over 20 years ago. Their costs are mostly materials, warranty and QC at this point.

I would speculate that labor costs, combined with the likely high number of individual process steps, are what drive the costs now.

[genevabuck]

I would speculate that labor costs, combined with the likely high number of individual process steps, are what drive the costs now.

Not to mention research, development, and the price of steel is up.

[SirVicaLot]

I understand that R&D costs a lot of money and all, but honestly, that is not my problem as a customer. I you want to spend millions to develop a new tool and all that you can show for is a new, fancy closing mechanism than that does not justify an almost 50% increased price to a comparable tool.

If i am not a fan of the company or a collector, why should i buy that? The locking mechanism has nothing to do with how well a tool does its job. It can break a tool, if the tools don‘t stay in, but it cannot make it. If the tools are held in place by conventional means or a magnet doesn‘t matter, as long as the tool implements perform well.

I know that sounds harsh, but this is how the market works. Have any MT companies ever disclosed selling numbers? Would be interesting to see how the Free series will have performed in a year from release.

[gustophersmob]

I understand that R&D costs a lot of money and all, but honestly, that is not my problem as a customer. I you want to spend millions to develop a new tool and all that you can show for is a new, fancy closing mechanism than that does not justify an almost 50% increased price to a comparable tool.

If i am not a fan of the company or a collector, why should i buy that? The locking mechanism has nothing to do with how well a tool does its job. It can break a tool, if the tools don‘t stay in, but it cannot make it. If the tools are held in place by conventional means or a magnet doesn‘t matter, as long as the tool implements perform well.

I know that sounds harsh, but this is how the market works. Have any MT companies ever disclosed selling numbers? Would be interesting to see how the Free series will have performed in a year from release.

I disagree, that is not how markets work.  Look at anything from computers, to cell phones to cars.  New features are introduced at premium prices, often times on product lines that are considered luxury items.  Then over time, as production costs are lowered and development costs are recouped, the new tech becomes more available at lower price points.  Forty years ago air conditioning was considered a luxury in cars.  Now I don't even know if you can buy a car in the US without it. 

If you don't want to buy it, that's fine, you likely aren't the target market for these tools. 

I'm honestly kind of surprised by some of the comments about how well the tool does its job.  If unqualified, those statements seem to imply that MT development could have stopped at the PST.  I realize that's not the intent, but there is nothing inherently wrong with incremental refinement that does not significantly impact a tool's basic function.  That is much more common in the development of new technology that sudden, great leaps in development.

[AimlessWanderer]

I understand that R&D costs a lot of money and all, but honestly, that is not my problem as a customer. I you want to spend millions to develop a new tool and all that you can show for is a new, fancy closing mechanism than that does not justify an almost 50% increased price to a comparable tool.

If i am not a fan of the company or a collector, why should i buy that? The locking mechanism has nothing to do with how well a tool does its job. It can break a tool, if the tools don‘t stay in, but it cannot make it. If the tools are held in place by conventional means or a magnet doesn‘t matter, as long as the tool implements perform well.

I know that sounds harsh, but this is how the market works. Have any MT companies ever disclosed selling numbers? Would be interesting to see how the Free series will have performed in a year from release.

I agree with this, which is what led me to say it's more of a collector/enthusiast tool, than a regular user tool. Some people will draw added value from aesthetics, innovative design, and new materials concepts. Other potential customers just want it to do the job, and don't particularly care how.

I do appreciate the mechanical design aspects, but won't pay extra for something just because it's new or different. I want function, quality (both of manufacture and design), value, and good ergonomics. I have spent extra money, and even put in extra work myself, to achieve these. However, I also think that the Fuse and Blast delivered these four criteria better than the Rebar or Free P2/P4. That's why I have a Fuse with Blast parts, and offloaded both my Rebars.

[sawman]

I disagree, that is not how markets work.  Look at anything from computers, to cell phones to cars.  New features are introduced at premium prices, often times on product lines that are considered luxury items.  Then over time, as production costs are lowered and development costs are recouped, the new tech becomes more available at lower price points.  Forty years ago air conditioning was considered a luxury in cars.  Now I don't even know if you can buy a car in the US without it. 

If you don't want to buy it, that's fine, you likely aren't the target market for these tools. 

I'm honestly kind of surprised by some of the comments about how well the tool does its job.  If unqualified, those statements seem to imply that MT development could have stopped at the PST.  I realize that's not the intent, but there is nothing inherently wrong with incremental refinement that does not significantly impact a tool's basic function.  That is much more common in the development of new technology that sudden, great leaps in development.

Some days, I think it would be best if they had stopped at the PST and other offerings from that time. I honestly don't see much forward progression TBH. 

[gustophersmob]

Some days, I think it would be best if they had stopped at the PST and other offerings from that time. I honestly don't see much forward progression TBH. 

And there’s nothing wrong with that, IMO. There’s a lot to love about the PST, for one thing.

It’s just that I also don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with the pursuit of improvements, even if they are initially more costly.

[gerleatherberman]

I disagree, that is not how markets work.  Look at anything from computers, to cell phones to cars.  New features are introduced at premium prices, often times on product lines that are considered luxury items.  Then over time, as production costs are lowered and development costs are recouped, the new tech becomes more available at lower price points.  Forty years ago air conditioning was considered a luxury in cars.  Now I don't even know if you can buy a car in the US without it. 

If you don't want to buy it, that's fine, you likely aren't the target market for these tools. 

I'm honestly kind of surprised by some of the comments about how well the tool does its job.  If unqualified, those statements seem to imply that MT development could have stopped at the PST.  I realize that's not the intent, but there is nothing inherently wrong with incremental refinement that does not significantly impact a tool's basic function.  That is much more common in the development of new technology that sudden, great leaps in development.

Very well outlined and excellent points.