To baton or not to baton, that is the question...

[Grant Lamontagne]

In my opinion, using a knife as an axe is like trying to use a Porsche 911 to drive on woodland trails.  Yeah, it can probably do it, at least for a while, and probably well enough to manage, but there is an equal (or greater) chance of catastrophic failure.

I know, I know, if you are in a survival situation, you are lost in the woods and in danger of freezing to death then you have got to do what you have got to do, but in general, relying on a knife to chop wood doesn't seem like the smartest idea, and the idea of whacking the spine of the knife repeatedly with a hard object is just taking a bad idea and making it worse.

In short, if you don't have an axe and rely on a knife to do the axe's job then you are just as likely to end up without an axe or a knife... 

Anyone here feel any different about batonning a knife?

Def

[Anka]

I have no problem with it as it can be safer than using an axe.  That being said....use the right knife for the job.  I typically use the BK2 when batoning.

Anka

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[Aloha]

I recently watched Dave Canterbury on this topic.  I've been following his current series.  That being said, battoning can be done effectively.  Knowledge is always key here.  I say Yes you can baton but like any skill one must know how. 

Video of Dave explaining the technique. 

Show content

https://youtu.be/7m7YFiePmRY

[Nix]

I find batoning to be a very useful technique. So count me in the "yes, baton" camp.   

In dry, clear weather, it isn't needed, in general. But where wood is wet or in winter batoning can be very useful. In Winter not only is it harder to find dry wood, but it can also be harder to determine that wood is dry.

Any well-made knife with a full tang should be able to baton without a problem. I've batoned through all kinds of woods and even bone. Never had an issue.

Be smart about batoning. Don't baton with a metal object, use a wood baton. Don't try to go through pieces of wood that are too big in any dimension. If all you have is a big piece of wood, take it apart in small sections.

When you have a few small dry pieces of interior wood, make some feather sticks to use as tinder, kindling, and small fuel.

I've never done this, but I could see batoning through a coconut to get it open.

[Nix]

I'll add that the famous Canadian Survival instructor, Mors Kochanski, was an advocate of learning to baton.

He also was an advocate of the axe and saw. He also liked making wedges to use to split out wood.

[AimlessWanderer]

Batonning was something I did a lot of when I had the boat, and I had at least four axes and hatchets there at the time.

The various saws, axes, maul and wedge, were used to break things down to " slow fuel" sized, and I'd use the hatchets to take that down further to "quick fuel" sized. Taking it down further to kindling would usually be done with a knife. It was safer. I know how to split down to kindling with an axe, but in low light, foul weather, or on a boat that's moving around on the water, there comes a point where a knife is easier and safer. Even in good conditions,there'd usually be a point in the processing, where I'd put the hatchet down, and pick up the knife.

[Etherealicer]

In my opinion, using a knife as an axe is like trying to use a Porsche 911 to drive on woodland trails.[...]

If I had a Porsche (or could drive) that is exactly what I would do... I mean that sounds like a lot of fun...

[Grant Lamontagne]

So far the only argument for batoning a knife so far is Al's.  I can see how it would come in handy on a moving boat that is heated with wood.  However, I think I would be more inclined to get one of those things that sits on the ground and has a blade in it that you pound the wood onto, instead of swinging the blade.

Yes, there are knives out there that are designed with batoning in mind, but I have to wonder about the effectiveness of them.

the thing about a knife is that it is brittle, which is why we don't pry with them.  The steel has to be hard to take a good edge, and I tend to prefer thinner blades because they cut better than the 1/4" thick blades that you see all over the place these days.  The thinner a blade is, the less drag it has and the better it cuts.  the harder a steel is, the better it holds an edge.

The flip side of all that is that the thinner a blade is the more likely it is to break, or the less lateral force you have for splitting.  The harder the steel is, the more likely it is to break or shatter under the shock of impact.

The knives that are designed for bushcrafting are more like knives with axe-like features built into them, that diminish their efficiency as a knife... as I see it anyway.

I think I would still rather have an axe than try to pound my knife through a tree.  I don't mind batoning an axe, as that's what it's head is designed to d, usually with a differential heat treat.

Def

[Aloha]

I've used a small hatchet with great success as a wedge.  I don't have a large axe as I can accomplish a lot with saws, hatchet, and larger knives.   I also tend to stick with 1095 if I am going to further process wood as kindling.  Recently I got some very hardwood that once sawn to size and split wouldn't catch fire.  It was just too darn hard.  I split the wood into quarters then split further with my knife.  I didn't actually HIT the knife but more nudged it thru the wood.  I use my Anza Tracker which is fairly thick stock.  I have BEAT this same knife thru some Eucalyptus  with no harm other than a rolled edge.   

[Nix]

I think I would still rather have an axe than try to pound my knife through a tree.  I don't mind batoning an axe, as that's what it's head is designed to d, usually with a differential heat treat.

OK. If you want to play the "I'd rather have" game, I guess I'd rather have a chain saw. Not much a well-tuned chain saw can't do, from felling trees to building igloos. But I can't actually think of a hike or backpacking trip where I lugged a chain saw along. I also can't think of a hike or backpacking trip or canoe trip or hunt or....whatever...when I didn't have a knife with me. #becausekniveswork.

All I can say is that large knives are incredibly efficient at batoning through appropriate bits of wood. All you need is a good knife and a baton.  It's impossible for me to count the number of times I've done this. Without a problem. Once the edge is in the wood, it is protected. The pressure is on the sides of the knife, focused at the apex of the secondary bevel. Still, I really like a differential heat treat on a knife to help absorb the shock of batonning.

I've also split a lot of wood with an axe. Axes are great. I love 'em, have several, keep one in the truck, got the badge. 

However, it can be trickier to baton with an axe. The axe head may get buried in a stout bit of wood to the point where you can no longer strike it with a baton. (whereas your knife blade is still sticking out the far side and can be smacked with a baton.)  At this point, you'll need to pick up axe and wood together and smack the whole unit down (in a safe place, in a safe manner) in order to drive the axe head through the wood, or get a wedge to prise the wood open, remove the axe, and work from the sides. And axes are not necessarily designed to be batonned, either. The poll and edge may be hardened, the center not. Smacking the poll may deform the eye and cause handle failure. You'll want to be sure about you specific axe before whacking it on the poll.

I'm still an axe fan, but I do see where a knife may have an advantage at times. Battoning is just a good skill to have.  A small cross-cut saw and a knife are easy to carry/pack. I am likely to have those with me on a hike or a hunt. It's rare that I bother to slip a hatchet or axe into my pack for a day hike or even backpacking trip.

Why would I?  I'll have a knife along. A knife can be used to baton through wood to make a fire, if one is needed. So....I don't have much need of an axe. I'll always have uses for a knife.

Is an axe a better tool for making a camp fire, in general? Probably so. At least for my neck of the woods. But if I'm in the woods and the axe is in the garage, it turns out to be a pretty crappy tool. That's why batonning is useful: I may not have an axe with me, but I will have a knife.

So, if you have crappy knives and are uncomfortable batonning, I recommend you keep and axe handy. Or a chain saw in good working order. In extreme cold, I'd worry that some steel knives might shatter with batonning, so a softer axe or a saw could be a life-saving tool. Every tool has its place. But so far, there as been no argument to not baton a decent, fixed blade knife through wood.

If the question is "to baton, or not to baton", I say, baton. If the question is "I've got hypothermia and am in desperate need of a fire and all I have is this knife and some wet wood, should I try to baton open this wood to get to some dry material and get a fire started before I die?", I say, definitely baton. 

[Nix]

I was on a survival course in -20ºF (-29ºC) and colder weather, up on a mountain, in deep snow. I successfully batonned a rat-tailed USAF Pilot's knife through pine to make a fire.  In hindsight, that doesn't seem like a good idea, but, I had the knife and no other tools. And it worked just fine.


(internet photo)

I got rid of that knife a long time ago. Now I kinda wish I still had it, if only to test out.

I do have a KaBar USMC knife. Maybe I'll try to get that out for some cold weather batonning to see if I can break that.   

[Nix]

I've done this once: carved a couple of wedges, started a split with a knife, then used a baton to split a large piece of wood with the wedges. Worked. This technique couldn't be used to split wood into very fine pieces, but a sharp knife could still be used to carve small pieces of wood for whatever purpose. In theory, one could used this technique to make pegs or shingle, etc.....

I've only done this once, as an experiment, because batonning a knife is just so much more straightforward and easy. Why bother with the wedge carving?

[Grant Lamontagne]

Ok, you have me on the chainsaw.... but then they are kind of a pain to carry on a hike! 

The argument could be made that a hatchet or axe would be as well, but then more often than not I carry an axe when going into the wild.  not so much when I am walking through a park, but I do when I am going through actual woods.

Def

[Nix]

Ok, you have me on the chainsaw.... but then they are kind of a pain to carry on a hike! 

The argument could be made that a hatchet or axe would be as well, but then more often than not I carry an axe when going into the wild.  not so much when I am walking through a park, but I do when I am going through actual woods.

Def

I seem to take an axe along on canoe trips.....not sure why, other than it is hugely handy. And it seems like there is always room in a canoe for an axe.  When I go kayaking, I take a small saw.  And a knife, of course. 

[MadPlumbarian]

There’s always those skatchet things,
JR

[Aloha]

Unfortunately many of us have seen people trying to baton logs when even an axe would have a hard time.  Like any technique battoning can be done effectively to produce materials needed to get a fire going.  It doesnt take a lot to make a wedge to aid in splitting wood.  I've used my hatchet to make a split in the piece of wood I'm trying to reduce into kindling.  Then pound the wedges into the wood to further split it.  This works well when the piece of wood is larger than my hatchet can tackle.  Or when my knife isn't long enough to span the wood. 

Its in Spanish but its a good video illustrating how this technique works. 

Show content

https://youtu.be/8O_EjyoZcs4

[Etherealicer]

So far the only argument for batoning a knife so far is Al's.  I can see how it would come in handy on a moving boat that is heated with wood.  However, I think I would be more inclined to get one of those things that sits on the ground and has a blade in it that you pound the wood onto, instead of swinging the blade.

Yes, there are knives out there that are designed with batoning in mind, but I have to wonder about the effectiveness of them.

the thing about a knife is that it is brittle, which is why we don't pry with them.  The steel has to be hard to take a good edge, and I tend to prefer thinner blades because they cut better than the 1/4" thick blades that you see all over the place these days.  The thinner a blade is, the less drag it has and the better it cuts.  the harder a steel is, the better it holds an edge.

The flip side of all that is that the thinner a blade is the more likely it is to break, or the less lateral force you have for splitting.  The harder the steel is, the more likely it is to break or shatter under the shock of impact.

The knives that are designed for bushcrafting are more like knives with axe-like features built into them, that diminish their efficiency as a knife... as I see it anyway.

I think I would still rather have an axe than try to pound my knife through a tree.  I don't mind batoning an axe, as that's what it's head is designed to d, usually with a differential heat treat.

Def

Might I point out the irony of this, coming from the big MT-Boss 

I prefer a real screwdriver, saw, pliers over MTs. But there is some convenience to MTs, why else would we carry them. They are a compromise for sure, but we can all agree that they work pretty well, no?

Same goes for knife/axe and again it's more than one reason:
- Laws might prevent axe carry. E.g. in Switzerland I cannot EDC an axe, I can EDC a sword though.
- Weight. If you have to carry your gear, you might wanna leave your axe at home.
- Fun. I seriously like my Spirit because it is the one tool that can do it all (or most). So, I also understand the appeal of a knife that can be used to carve a spoon, and to build a log house...

I disagree that you have to compromise on the knife part to get one that can be used to batoning. The Fällkniven F1 is a great general purpose knife and plenty of people baton with it (I guess that is the magic of laminated steel).

P.S.: Wait, we are not supposed to use our knives for prying

[EricBTTA]

I generally will always bring some kind of axe or saw but batoning can definently do the job in a pinch granted with the right knife “preferably made from high carbon steel”



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[zoidberg]

Welcome to the boards Eric.   

[AimlessWanderer]

Might I point out the irony of this, coming from the big MT-Boss 

I prefer a real screwdriver, saw, pliers over MTs. But there is some convenience to MTs, why else would we carry them. They are a compromise for sure, but we can all agree that they work pretty well, no?

Same goes for knife/axe and again it's more than one reason:
- Laws might prevent axe carry. E.g. in Switzerland I cannot EDC an axe, I can EDC a sword though.
- Weight. If you have to carry your gear, you might wanna leave your axe at home.
- Fun. I seriously like my Spirit because it is the one tool that can do it all (or most). So, I also understand the appeal of a knife that can be used to carve a spoon, and to build a log house...

I disagree that you have to compromise on the knife part to get one that can be used to batoning. The Fällkniven F1 is a great general purpose knife and plenty of people baton with it (I guess that is the magic of laminated steel).

P.S.: Wait, we are not supposed to use our knives for prying

Much sense spoken here 

I think intention comes into it too. Walking into an environment where you expect to do a lot of wood processing, is very different to just knocking up a quick fire to cook one meal, partway through a long trek. I'd like to think I could fuel my wild woodgas stove without extensive cutting and chopping, but nature might not have been kind enough to leave the right fuel when and where I need it, and I might end up having to put a bit more effort in. I wouldn't consider carrying an axe to fuel it though

[Nix]

 

[Dean51]

In my opinion, using a knife as an axe is like trying to use a Porsche 911 to drive on woodland trails.  Yeah, it can probably do it, at least for a while, and probably well enough to manage, but there is an equal (or greater) chance of catastrophic failure.

I know, I know, if you are in a survival situation, you are lost in the woods and in danger of freezing to death then you have got to do what you have got to do, but in general, relying on a knife to chop wood doesn't seem like the smartest idea, and the idea of whacking the spine of the knife repeatedly with a hard object is just taking a bad idea and making it worse.

In short, if you don't have an axe and rely on a knife to do the axe's job then you are just as likely to end up without an axe or a knife... 

Anyone here feel any different about batonning a knife?

Def

I've seen the you tube videos of guys splitting chain sawed wood with a knife. In my woods wanderings I've never come up on a pile of firewood, just sitting there waiting on me to use. I'm sure I'll never be cutting logs with a knife that I then have to split.

When I've needed to build a fire or quick shelter I use a folding saw or light hatchet. Then carry a pair of knives for knife stuff, one for game and a medium sized fixed blade.

The concept of being caught, lost in the woods or whatever survival situation and having nothing but a big knife. Ain't going to happen, I'm going prepared.

Short answer I don't baton.

[Gerhard Gerber]

The reality here is we buy local hardwoods cut in lengths that fit in old feed bags, those you need to chop to make your fire.

Camelthorn, other Acacia and Mopani are basically the woods used, and all of them feel very little for a puny human with a puny axe..... 

So the reality in my woods wanderings (like last weekend on the farm) you'll have a bag of logs, and batoning is the safest and easiest way to split them......more control, no swinging, no aiming.....

Or.....you'll be breaking off or picking up dead wood....like we did.

Just used some brute force or lever action to break up the wood.

Horses for courses, this part of the world an axe is a waste.....

[Gerhard Gerber]

And thens we's strop on the back of our's sheath and it shaves again.....hmmmmm......leaf spring 










The marks on the blade are from the local woods......not blood 

[ThundahBeagle]

Yes, I would baton with a sturdy knife if I really had no other way.
No, it is not my first choice.

50-ft mentioned a maul...good on ya, 50! (Aimless)

During my formative years in upstate New York, I learned very early on that an axe is NOT the tool with which to split logs. Can it be used? Yes. Should it? No. In the late 70's, early 80's, I was out logging with my brother and father at about age 9 until I was 16 or 17 and we did 24 cord of wood a year. Sometimes felled and logged, but always split, carried and stacked. Sometimes in some damn bitter cold. We had 8 fireplaces in a house that was built in the late 1700's by one of the Greene Moubtain Boys on one of George Washington's 60 acre land grants after our Revolutionary War. No insulation in the walls our first winter there. I'm well aware that there are folks out there who have logged and chopped way more firewood than I have, and maybe they could chime in, but I think that's pretty decent credentials. Enough to say...

The proper use for an axe or chain saw is to chop the tree down by hacking (relatively) surgical wedges out of the tree to make it fall where you want. We then use the axe or a chain saw to de-branch it and make logs.

The MAUL is half axe, half wedge, and THAT - along with some wedges - is what should be used to split wooden logs into firewood.

But nobody is going to carry a maul and wedges camping or hiking. Nobody is going to likely want to carry an axe hiking or camping either.

The knife is for skinning and butchering and making fire sticks. Cutting rope or vines.  In the city it might be used to puncture the tires of some j@cka$$ who just stole the parking space you spent hours shoveling snow from... but I dont condone that...that knife won't be as able to clean a fish or skin game as easily if you baton wood with it. But yes, I would under a last resort, or just to practice in case of last resort.

What should really be used for hike and camp wood processing is the HATCHET.

There is often smaller diameter wood that a knife can be used on, but even with medium to large diameter wood...why not just use the hatchet?. Nothing says you can't pound the hatchet. If you are worried about burying the hatchet (see what I did there?) deep into the log, then use your head and work the edges of the log. You dont always have to start by splitting the log in half. Work the edge. If you do manage to get the hatchet buried, you could use a cut sapling - sized, longer log to lay along the handle and baton it. Or, stand that narrow log up on end on the back of the hatchet and pound the other end. Or, yes, lift log and hatchet as a unit and bang on the ground.

Heck, the safest way to split wood at home, as I get older, is just wedges and a 3 or 4 pound mini sledge.

Just one man's educated opinion.

[Nix]

Wedges and hammer were my favorite way to split wood, too.  I find I have better control with wedges and a hammer.   

[sir_mike]

I seen a survival type show where the guy made a wooden wedge, then used a chunk of wood like a bat size to split wood with.  I do think he started the slot for the wedge though with his knife.  That would be my idea if I had to split some wood for a fire just so I didn't use my blade too much cause yes you could damage it and then what?

I also agree that there is a technique to learn and use to minimize the effect it can have over time!  But of course an axe would be better so I would pack one if I had the chance too!

[Shoop83]

What is Batoning? (Because I had to look it up.)

Batoning is a survival and bushcraft technique whereby a sturdy knife is lodged in a piece of wood then struck repeatedly by a baton-like object, a heavy piece of wood for instance, in order to split the wood.

From: https://morethanjustsurviving.com/batoning/

[Bill.H]

It seems like using a baton and a knife is some sort of bushcraft-y fad lately, at least on youtube. It has its place but IMO it's been way overdone recently.

I don't understand why some people say not to baton with (for example) a Mora. Whether or not a knife is full tang shouldn't really matter unless you're beating on the handle.
(HINT: Don't do that.)

That said, I'd rather pick up sticks than baton wood, its faster and easier. As long as it hasn't been raining heavily you should be able to find all the dry sticks you need, there are always dead branches. When everything is soaked you might have to split wood to get to the dry interior. A good, sharp, camp hatchet is the fastest for that.

As was mentioned above, I don't see the need to carry an axe when hiking or camping, either. A good folding saw, small hatchet, and light knife is the best combination most of the time for camping, at least in the area where I live.
Hiking may have different weight requirements where a heavier knife might be all you can carry. In that case, pick up or break sticks for kindling.

That leads to when you have to baton: there's no dry kindling and all you have is a knife. In that case you really don't have a choice. You'll probably need to make feathersticks in wet weather since most tinder will be wet too.
(Tip: birch bark still lights well even when soaked)

[Gerhard Gerber]

Wedges and hammer were my favorite way to split wood, too.  I find I have better control with wedges and a hammer.   

Control.......

Considering my background with axes, i.e. very limited, I'd even baton an axe........come to think of it I have, a little P-O-S UST hatchet that I re-handled, too light to do much.

It seems like using a baton and a knife is some sort of bushcraft-y fad lately, at least on youtube. It has its place but IMO it's been way overdone recently.

Just my impression, but I get the feeling that fad has passed to a large extent, youtube and elsewhere....