Cowardly shootings in Christchurch, NZ.

[kkokkolis]

Awful. In school they made us think that we were done with middle ages and fascism and stuff. We aren't. And the worst things happened inside countries with a good peace and personal rights record, like Norway and New Zealand.

[ThundahBeagle]

Lord Almighty, what a tragedy! My condolences. I wish everyone was ok, but I know that isn't true. So at least I hope that all of our members and loved ones are safe.

Wrong headed people like this, who do what they do ostensibly in retaliation for attacks like the knife attacks in London or the truck attack in France, they just dont get the fact that they are no better.

[gerleatherberman]

Well stated, Thundah!

[Butch]

It is truly sad that people look for reasons to hate, when it is so easy to find ways to agree without much effort at all.

[Gerhard Gerber]

A piece or pieces of smurf went on a shooting rampage at two Mosques in my old hometown of Christchurch, New Zealand today. The death toll so far is 49.
I'm sure worse things happen around the world and no one blinks an eye, but this is not the NZ I know.
 I don't really know what to say.

You asked the other day if I was Pastafarian, ask me why and my answer if THIS.

To be very clear, IMO, there are no innocents in this mess......

It's always Pepsi vs Coke, at the moment Pepsi seems to have the better marketing strategy and they are just taking over the world.  But what about the people that like Coke?  That's the question on Facebook this morning, why no outcry about Cokes that were bombed somewhere or another   

Then again, the management of Coke make war on the management of Pepsi so they can steal their oil, so all the Pepsi people move to the Coke countries again so they can have iPhones.
 

[gerleatherberman]

I seriously hope you're not implying that murder of innocents is O.K, as long as murder of innocents was done to the other group first? Westernized(*edit* using the term loosely here metaphorically) cultures know better than that. Stooping down to the level of backwards terrorists is regression. Eye for an eye doesn't make any sense when the eyes taken don't belong to the one who took an eye.

[glenfiddich1983]

You asked the other day if I was Pastafarian, ask me why and my answer if THIS.

To be very clear, IMO, there are no innocents in this mess......

It's always Pepsi vs Coke, at the moment Pepsi seems to have the better marketing strategy and they are just taking over the world.  But what about the people that like Coke?  That's the question on Facebook this morning, why no outcry about Cokes that were bombed somewhere or another   

Then again, the management of Coke make war on the management of Pepsi so they can steal their oil, so all the Pepsi people move to the Coke countries again so they can have iPhones.
 

    

[lister]

The thing was filmed? That's a whole new level of WTF.   

[Don Pablo]

The thing was filmed? That's a whole new level of WTF.   

And hopefully no one else will try to copy that ..

[Mechanickal]

Comparing soft drink marketing campaigns with multiple accounts of murder...

I am not going to dig into that

[Butch]

Trying to make sense of these this is an exercise in futility. Man has been killing man since the dawn of time & it isn't going to stop. Whether a barroom brawl, a shooting in a sacred place or an all out war, it is never a good thing. Let me be clear I do not condone, I condemn this, but face it, It just ain't gonna change until something very fundamental in the human animal changes.

And I for one think it is a very sad fact.

[Syncop8r]

And hopefully no one else will try to copy that ..

Sadly I think they will. It has set a new bar for outrageousness.
There is concern of copycats. The shooter himself paid homage to other mass murderers with the same ideals such as the guy in Norway.

Facebook alone removed 1.5 million videos in the first 24 hours after the attack. Then there is also YouTube, Reddit, Twitter...

[gerleatherberman]

And the horrible people that do that sort of thing don't realize that the very thing they believe they are trying to put a stop to has only emboldened their perceived enemy to further increase their hate-driven attacks. A vicious circle that only the better of the two ideologies can break. At this point, the fringes of both sides are becoming equally heinous. This is what happens in society when empathy gets viewed as a weakness.

[Syncop8r]

To be very clear, IMO, there are no innocents in this mess......

I beg to differ. There are at least 50 of them. Here are some: https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2019/03/end-of-our-innocence/#group-the-people-we-lost-jrhQZ3HFXQ
Look at their photos and read the brief blurb about each of them. Most came here for a better, safer life.
There's a 3 year old in there - as innocent as they get.

[Syncop8r]

It's always Pepsi vs Coke

A vicious circle that only the better of the two ideologies can break.

Yes, too much Us Vs Them and tit-for-tat.

It is truly sad that people look for reasons to hate, when it is so easy to find ways to agree without much effort at all.

 

[ToolJoe]

Thoughts go out to all those affected. I think the judge is in the right for making the media blurring the suspects face.

[Gerhard Gerber]

Je suis Utrecht 

[Mechanickal]

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

[Grant Lamontagne]

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

Just the guilty....

Def

[Etherealicer]

Just the guilty....

Def

Problem is, the one taking revenge already has lost his eyes...

[gerleatherberman]

If I am off-base and presumptuous here, I apologize.  But, at the end of the day, the only person/people responsible should pay for their crimes. The death of innocents has never, does not, or will not ever be justifiable. It is doubtful that any of the mosque victims that this thread is about had any connection or approval of action by extremists murdering people on their side.
If someone wants true retribution, the logical course of action is to start a watchdog group that infiltrates online activity of extremists and works with the authorities to bring said extremists to the light of the law to answer for their crimes(best case scenario), and in the least, have recorded possible malevolent intent, to shed light on possible attacks that could be prevented in the future.

[magentus]

If I am off-base and presumptuous here, I apologize.  But, at the end of the day, the only person/people responsible should pay for their crimes. The death of innocents has never, does not, or will not ever be justifiable. It is doubtful that any of the mosque victims that this thread is about had any connection or approval of action by extremists murdering people on their side.
If someone wants true retribution, the logical course of action is to start a watchdog group that infiltrates online activity of extremists and works with the authorities to bring said extremists to the light of the law to answer for their crimes(best case scenario), and in the least, have recorded possible malevolent intent, to shed light on possible attacks that could be prevented in the future.

[Gerhard Gerber]

If I am off-base and presumptuous here, I apologize.  But, at the end of the day, the only person/people responsible should pay for their crimes. The death of innocents has never, does not, or will not ever be justifiable. It is doubtful that any of the mosque victims that this thread is about had any connection or approval of action by extremists murdering people on their side.
If someone wants true retribution, the logical course of action is to start a watchdog group that infiltrates online activity of extremists and works with the authorities to bring said extremists to the light of the law to answer for their crimes(best case scenario), and in the least, have recorded possible malevolent intent, to shed light on possible attacks that could be prevented in the future.

I almost said you watch too much tv, fortunately I didn't.

I truly and sincerely hope none of you good people in this place ever feel threatened, oppressed, repressed...or the ugly need to strike back.

I thank Robert Heinlein for what I wish the world would be, but over hear in Africa you grow up with violence just a bit closer at hand.....

Over here racism is what white people do, and tribalism is what black people do.......and it's the same thing.
Religion is just the club you belong to.....the tshirt you wear.  A godless Englishman hooliganing for his favourite FC is no different......bit more honest maybe 

[gerleatherberman]

Gerhard,

Believe me, I understand the instinctual need for retribution. The instinctual need to strike back at a group, even if they aren't the exact same people who committed the act of initial violence, for revenge/vengeance. Wanting to harm people who believe the same thing as the others who committed the violence, just because they aren't in "your" group. It is called the Mob-Mentality.  I am not someone who lives in a bubble. I used to be angered at entire groups of people for acts of the few extremists on their side. At some point it is realized that thinking like that serves no long term benefit.

I am not naive or ignorant of certain group's malice/violence towards people like myself. However, knowing that, "Striking back" for violence of one group is always the action of someone who lacks/doesn't use critical thinking skills, and uses emotion only in regards to the situation. An intelligent approach where preventative actions(such as the ones I outlined about infiltrating the groups and bringing light to the local authorities before the group can act out) is always going to have longer lasting affects in society. "Eye for an eye" is the intellectually cheap way of approaching acts of violence. IMO of course. Levels of hate vary person to person, and some people's instincts are stronger than their higher mind, even if they know better. Sure, there are times violence must be used, but as far as terrorism goes, retributive action only emboldens their hatred. Which, in turn, emboldens yours.

Edit:
I should add, I really do wish you didn't have to live in an area where retributive violence was at the heart of many people. That makes it really hard to observe the problem objectively. My condolences for that.

[Grant Lamontagne]

I think we need to watch ourselves here.

This is a discussion that can very easily turn political or into a discussion about religion, and we all know better than to take any chances going to either of those places.

I also have some very strong feelings about this kind of thing, and I am managing to hold my tongue (mostly) so if I can do it, we all can.  Let's try to stick to the things that we can agree on (sorrow for the victims and their families, hatred for the violent acts) rather than argue over the whys and wherefores.

It is all too easy to blame the guns, the Christians, the Muslims, the Internet and many other things when the blame rests squarely on the individuals that do these kinds of actions, and I think that if we, as a society concentrated more of the blame where it belongs rather than splintering it off on various other topics, then perhaps there would be less incentive to perform these kinds of actions.

What we cannot do is allow this kind of thing to divide us.  It is perfectly okay (in fact, encouraged) for us all to have differing thoughts on this kind of thing, ideas on how to prevent it, ideas on motivations, various solutions and other details, but if we are going to discuss these things we need to remain calm and respectful to each other- partially because we are all MTO Members and partially because as much as we get angry with each other's knee jerk reactions (yes, you have thought that about someone's opinions here, don't deny it, it's perfectly normal and legitimate) and it is not going to solve a damned thing.

We can't stop these kinds of things from happening.  The Powers That Be can't stop these things from happening, and arguments on the internet are not going to work any better.

What we can accomplish is that we each learn something from each of these tragedies and we take steps to protect ourselves and our loved ones from suffering the same fate.  Keep your heads up and your eyes open.  Identify potential threats and exits wherever you go and try to stick to areas that should be more secure.  Find that quiet guy (or girl) in your neighborhood, class or workplace and do something nice for them.  Show respect to everyone you meet, and smile often. 

If we all work to improve the things and lives of people around us maybe we can stop this thing from happening, or at least slow it down. 

And, whatever you do, don't pay too close attention to the news media.  Gone are the days in which they just reported facts, if indeed they ever did.  Don't fall into the trap that white people are all racist, black people are all criminals, all Muslims are terrorists etc.  Look into your neighbor's eyes, shake his/her hand and work together to make things better, regardless of how funny their accent may be.

And some day, when Multitool Island becomes a reality, everyone willing to smile at adversity and stand together against it will be more than welcome to stand next to me.

Def

[Butch]

 

+1

[SteveC]

Well said Grant   

[Fuzzbucket]

+1

  +2  Good post - spot on.

[gerleatherberman]

Very well said(as Butch, Steve & Fuzz mentioned), Grant! It got me thinking.

I apologize for having gotten involved passed my initial condolences in the thread. And apologies for running my mouth(well, technically, my fingers), to anyone who read my ranting.
In the future, I'll be more diligent to not get worked up over things that aren't multi tool related.

[Butch]