Leatherman Free P2/P4 Club and Feedback Thread

[Dutch_Tooler]

Well, sorry for beeing such a crybaby, i fell you guys understand better.
Pliers closing was user problem(fatigue and expectations) , this morning i was able to close it fine.
Saw side is fine, no problems there.
Scissor side... WIP, i have to find the right arrangement so scissors dont touch pliers.
Regarding friction... I need to find a better lube.
I checked the videos i made and tried to remeber every impression... And... Every third consecutive time i tried to open main blade or saw it got somehow stuck and i gelped with the middle finger. Scissor and serrated i opened directly with middle finger and did not observed any issue, altough i helped with the thumb.

Looking at your pic Raoul I can't escape the impression that the file and maybe the can opener have slightly recessed surfaces (with coaxial circular contours) at the pivots - or is that just an illusion? If these recesses exist then the placement and size of washers becomes quite critical - the Wave washers may have an outer diameter that overlies the recesses...?

[gerleatherberman]

Looking at the photo, I see a lot of excessive circular scarring(more than mine with stock configuration do). Might help a lot if you polish the tangs, spring/spacers, washers, inside the lock seat, and inside of the handles where the stock washers are positioned.

[ZapWizard]

The pivot surface on the tools is totally flat. There is a rounded edge at the end of the tool stop to make it so that it doesn't get caught when closing the tool. However, I noticed this rounded edge isn't equal on all the tools.
The can opener on mine is rounded on one side, but has almost no rounding on the other.

[gerleatherberman]

Leatherman needs to modify the grey sheath design to have a stitched brand instead of the rubbery logo. After just a few weeks.

I am going to put it through a wash cycle soon and see if it will clean up. But, IMO, black would have been much much better of a color choice. Leather box style(or Wave type pocketed nylon option) would be really nice for the P4. The double-pocket leather/nylon premium sheath would be nice as well. I have an extra one of those and think I'll try it at some point.

Note: the grey nylon sheath is of good usable quality, but the color looks dingy and the rubbery logo tears up to easily.

Nobody is going to look at my grey sheath, the way it looks now, and think "he has the best MT out there." 

I'll probably just cut the threads attaching the rubbery logo and use it as solid grey.

[Wspeed]

The grey sheath 

[Top-Gear-24]

I've found it fits nicely into the "old style" leather Charge sheath.

I'm talking about these ones:

[gerleatherberman]

The grey sheath 

I had to see how it holds up.

I've found it fits nicely into the "old style" leather Charge sheath.

I'm talking about these ones:

(Image removed from quote.)

Thanks for the info, T-G!

I don't own one of those, but will look for one this weekend.

[Raoul Octav]

hello, remeber me:)
Short history: i took the tool apart, reassembled it with wave implements washers on the Saw, main Blade and Scissor.
Which made the tools open easier with one hand(thumb)
This because I was not happy with the way the tools opened and the saw and scissor (while opening) touched the pliers. Scissor was quite close to pliers head in closed position.
All Ok, except the fact that the scissor touched the pliers while closed, and ...long story short i disassembled and reassembled the tool numerous times bumping in others issues while not being able to fix the touching of the pliers by the scissor, plus, the opening with one hand(thumb) became more and more difficult and also the handles would not close easy(they stuck, and i needed some force to close them)
What have i learned/discovered:
- The scales have to be parallel to each other
- Pivots must enter the scales, on pliers side they enter almost completely yet on the implements side pivot enters just a bit
- Pliers pivot screw must not touch the sandwich of scales, half moons, pliers, scales. A 0.1mm tolerance is needed so handles close easy . This space was observed from the box yet attributed to poor manufacturing( my error). This helps the parallelism of scales.
- Saw side has 3 washers, this to compensate slimness of the saw, it also helps regarding to smoothness of opening.
YET- DO NOT EXPECT SMOOTHNESS ON OPENING THE TOOLS WHILE EVERYTHING IS CLEAN & DEGREASED, my main fault
-opening of the main tools is ODD, do not expect Wave or OHT easyness.
Actually, the FREE P is not advertised as one hand opening tool.
-extra Washers do help, yet geometry of the tool does not allow you to add extra washers, tinkering is needed, or a longer rear and front  pivot and thicker front half moons.
- a good Lube is desired for the Free P, don't waste time with washers like a did.

Conclusion, i manufactured some washers from Zytel ( i had a handel from a Blast)
to be larger and to be put on the scales to help keep parralelism
i have moved an inner washer to the main blade and added a zytel washer to the saw.
also i moved scissor on saw side.
Now both my handles have same thickness, main blade and saw can be opened ( somehow) smoother with one thumb.
Scissor still touches the pliers head:(
 and i've dicovered that the flex of a handel comes from the bushing and/or the entire sanwich cumulated tolerances ( 2 pivots, scales and tools etc). This reduces or amplifies the scissor touch and or implements movement referrenced to the pliers head.
From my view, thicker pivots are needed on the implements side, and spacers to reduce friction.

Info:
On the scales, washer is standard, 3.2mm inner diameter, 0.5mm thick and 7mm wide
On the saw side, there are 3 washers, thinner and slightly larger than standard ones. 2 come inside , next to the spring, and one between the spring and serrated blade.

PS: the moment i renounced to open the Free P4 like a Wave/Surge OHT all my nerves were gone.
It is a great Plier opening tool, altough when rotation is applied it's not so fun, really OK to open main tools with both hands( one holding the tool) and the other hand  WITH the finger nail to have it open.
Middle implenets are real smart to be opened with one Hand

I'm kinda disspointed, i had other expectations(mainly in ergonomy and ease of use), maybe too high for a 175USD multitool
Wave gen 1 is still my favorite, followed by Surge( who is my first love and first LMN) who became too big and heavy for my daily needs.
I WISH FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART THAT LMN DOES READ-RECEIVE OUR FEEDBACK, in order to have the Free P EVOLVE to something even better. my2cents

[Raoul Octav]

I played with all the otheR LMNs i have...
To be objective on the Free P4 (In extension to P2)
-Pliers opening closing is main feature,great, we had to sacrifice overall tool robustness (handle made of 2 parts not one U shape pressed) and reduce rotation force (yet this is happening in a small amount of scenarios). Though plier and Tools used as plier seems to be able to do the same job as any other LMN 
-from 2 outside one hand opening tools we have now 4, indeed harder and annoying to open than the 2 on the Wave yet you can open them all
-all implements able to open with one hand, Second to main feature, great..yet implements form and selection can be improved but this is subjective already (Bit holder)
-Toughness, overall robustness and opening of the main tools can be improved, depends if LMN wants it and offcourse if it is desired by the consumers
I have a hunch that the competition is learning and sooner or later , the'll come with something better ...it's the way of life evolving, not staying in the same place

PS: From PR point of view, great marketing and Hype campaign. I'm sorry that i bit the bait , yet now i know better what i desire and what i truly need ( i do use them tools, not keep them on a shelf( no offense to collectors or owners who like to admire them, we're all different and that is good, the world would be such a boring place otherwise)

[Sam Lim]

I am really sorry to hear that the your P4 failed you.. Even when you have spent time trying to make it a better functioning tool. I totally emphatise with you. I dun like that the outside blades have to fight the spring on every opening, the implements are just gimmicky to extract. Basically all the drivers are non functional and useless. What's the problem with having nail nicks? They are adjustable at least for most LMs. It's every individual's responsibility to adjust them to work for you and not complain they are too tight and breaks nails. In design point of view, most tools with outside accessible implements have the problems of them falling out when using the pliers with the strict exception of Vics. Not faulting LM for this happening on the Free series, but they should had done better to counter the issue. Bottom line, a new design with overly complicated implementation that doesn't bring any real improvement. I own a few tools from LMs and other makers but am not bias to any of the brands but rather judge individual products.

I can't exactly say I fell prey to their hyped marketing cos I am still going to get it sooner or later. Just not at this kind of price for sure. I still say $120 and $140 for this is mad. Not to mention the exorbitant markups in the overseas market. Still, I am sure they are going to sell many of these.

[Happy Gilmore]

hello, remeber me:)
Short history: i took the tool apart, reassembled it with wave implements washers on the Saw, main Blade and Scissor.
Which made the tools open easier with one hand(thumb)
This because I was not happy with the way the tools opened and the saw and scissor (while opening) touched the pliers. Scissor was quite close to pliers head in closed position.
All Ok, except the fact that the scissor touched the pliers while closed, and ...long story short i disassembled and reassembled the tool numerous times bumping in others issues while not being able to fix the touching of the pliers by the scissor, plus, the opening with one hand(thumb) became more and more difficult and also the handles would not close easy(they stuck, and i needed some force to close them)
What have i learned/discovered:
- The scales have to be parallel to each other
- Pivots must enter the scales, on pliers side they enter almost completely yet on the implements side pivot enters just a bit
- Pliers pivot screw must not touch the sandwich of scales, half moons, pliers, scales. A 0.1mm tolerance is needed so handles close easy . This space was observed from the box yet attributed to poor manufacturing( my error). This helps the parallelism of scales.
- Saw side has 3 washers, this to compensate slimness of the saw, it also helps regarding to smoothness of opening.
YET- DO NOT EXPECT SMOOTHNESS ON OPENING THE TOOLS WHILE EVERYTHING IS CLEAN & DEGREASED, my main fault
-opening of the main tools is ODD, do not expect Wave or OHT easyness.
Actually, the FREE P is not advertised as one hand opening tool.
-extra Washers do help, yet geometry of the tool does not allow you to add extra washers, tinkering is needed, or a longer rear and front  pivot and thicker front half moons.
- a good Lube is desired for the Free P, don't waste time with washers like a did.

Conclusion, i manufactured some washers from Zytel ( i had a handel from a Blast)
to be larger and to be put on the scales to help keep parralelism
i have moved an inner washer to the main blade and added a zytel washer to the saw.
also i moved scissor on saw side.
Now both my handles have same thickness, main blade and saw can be opened ( somehow) smoother with one thumb.
Scissor still touches the pliers head:(
 and i've dicovered that the flex of a handel comes from the bushing and/or the entire sanwich cumulated tolerances ( 2 pivots, scales and tools etc). This reduces or amplifies the scissor touch and or implements movement referrenced to the pliers head.
From my view, thicker pivots are needed on the implements side, and spacers to reduce friction.

Info:
On the scales, washer is standard, 3.2mm inner diameter, 0.5mm thick and 7mm wide
On the saw side, there are 3 washers, thinner and slightly larger than standard ones. 2 come inside , next to the spring, and one between the spring and serrated blade.

PS: the moment i renounced to open the Free P4 like a Wave/Surge OHT all my nerves were gone.
It is a great Plier opening tool, altough when rotation is applied it's not so fun, really OK to open main tools with both hands( one holding the tool) and the other hand  WITH the finger nail to have it open.
Middle implenets are real smart to be opened with one Hand

I'm kinda disspointed, i had other expectations(mainly in ergonomy and ease of use), maybe too high for a 175USD multitool
Wave gen 1 is still my favorite, followed by Surge( who is my first love and first LMN) who became too big and heavy for my daily needs.
I WISH FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART THAT LMN DOES READ-RECEIVE OUR FEEDBACK, in order to have the Free P EVOLVE to something even better. my2cents

Wow, I really hope you keep moding. Your approach is rather unique. I am sorry the p series isn't quite what u hoped for, but your work is really benefiting the community.

Cheers,
HG

[gerleatherberman]

+1 

I played with all the otheR LMNs i have...
To be objective on the Free P4 (In extension to P2)
-Pliers opening closing is main feature,great, we had to sacrifice overall tool robustness (handle made of 2 parts not one U shape pressed) and reduce rotation force (yet this is happening in a small amount of scenarios). Though plier and Tools used as plier seems to be able to do the same job as any other LMN 
-from 2 outside one hand opening tools we have now 4, indeed harder and annoying to open than the 2 on the Wave yet you can open them all
-all implements able to open with one hand, Second to main feature, great..yet implements form and selection can be improved but this is subjective already (Bit holder)
-Toughness, overall robustness and opening of the main tools can be improved, depends if LMN wants it and offcourse if it is desired by the consumers
I have a hunch that the competition is learning and sooner or later , the'll come with something better ...it's the way of life evolving, not staying in the same place

PS: From PR point of view, great marketing and Hype campaign. I'm sorry that i bit the bait , yet now i know better what i desire and what i truly need ( i do use them tools, not keep them on a shelf( no offense to collectors or owners who like to admire them, we're all different and that is good, the world would be such a boring place otherwise)

Raoul,

Your efforts to guide the community to modding ideas are much appreciated. Fortunately I have found the stock configuration to be suitable to moderate needs. I've never been hit with an overwhelming need to mod my tools(though I have a few tools I modded for fun). As far as the possibility of improvements, I can find many for any tool for sure, but the idea of objectivity excludes the modding aspect when looked at through the lens of regular users.
Instead of trying to adjust the P4 I've been carrying to be more suited to my needs, I try to adjust my needs to the tool itself. And, that being the case, I am still holding firm that the P4 series are fantastic fun to play with and work very well for most user's needs. But, as far as pure LM user tools go, the Wave/Charge still wins. I'm glad that LM didn't just change up the Wave/Charge again(like the plus versions) and built something for the fidget fun tool market.

[Happy Gilmore]

+1 

Raoul,

Your efforts to guide the community to modding ideas are much appreciated. Fortunately I have found the stock configuration to be suitable to moderate needs. I've never been hit with an overwhelming need to mod my tools(though I have a few tools I modded for fun). As far as the possibility of improvements, I can find many for any tool for sure, but the idea of objectivity excludes the modding aspect when looked at through the lens of regular users.
Instead of trying to adjust the P4 I've been carrying to be more suited to my needs, I try to adjust my needs to the tool itself. And, that being the case, I am still holding firm that the P4 series are fantastic fun to play with and work very well for most user's needs. But, as far as pure LM user tools go, the Wave/Charge still wins. I'm glad that LM didn't just change up the Wave/Charge again(like the plus versions) and built something for the fidget fun tool market.

I am one of those people that does feel the overwhelming need to modify my tools, but I really appreciate what LM was trying to do. As long as they keep the surge,st300, and charge/wave as real tools with real implements I'm cool with having two different types of tools. What I look for in a tool is as few substitutes as possible. The P series just has too many for my liking.

Honestly if they hadn't trash talked the wave and made it out to be better (which it def isn't), I would have been a lot more excited about the novelty of this tool.

[gerleatherberman]

I am one of those people that does feel the overwhelming need to modify my tools, but I really appreciate what LM was trying to do. As long as they keep the surge,st300, and charge/wave as real tools with real implements I'm cool with having two different types of tools. What I look for in a tool is as few substitutes as possible. The P series just has too many for my liking.

Honestly if they hadn't trash talked the wave and made it out to be better (which it def isn't), I would have been a lot more excited about the novelty of this tool.

Fantastic points, Happy G!

Indeed, LM really screwed up with throwing the Wave under the metaphorical bus.

Why couldn't they have compared it to the SOG PowerAccess, Gerber Truss, Victorinox Spirit, etc. in the promotions? That seems to be the market they intended to go after with the P2/P4. And even I, not being a marketing expert, could make a case for the P2/P4 against those tools.

High-end knife makers produce multi-hundred knives all of the time that have competition at 1/4 of the price(same blade steels, handle material, fit & finish, etc). Leatherman was unwise to compete within their own production.
As much as I lament the Gerber sales tactics, at least they go after their actual competition(CD vs. OHT for example).

[ReamerPunch]

Maybe they set the Wave as competition on purpose, as a win-win safety. People who would not like the P series would buy the Wave, which is also made by them.

[Top-Gear-24]

Fantastic points, Happy G!

Indeed, LM really screwed up with throwing the Wave under the metaphorical bus.

Why couldn't they have compared it to the SOG PowerAccess, Gerber Truss, Victorinox Spirit, etc. in the promotions? That seems to be the market they intended to go after with the P2/P4. And even I, not being a marketing expert, could make a case for the P2/P4 against those tools.

High-end knife makers produce multi-hundred knives all of the time that have competition at 1/4 of the price(same blade steels, handle material, fit & finish, etc). Leatherman was unwise to compete within their own production.
As much as I lament the Gerber sales tactics, at least they go after their actual competition(CD vs. OHT for example).

To be honest, I'm starting to understand why Leatherman put the Free up against the Wave during the promotions.

I mean, it's a win/win situation for them, if it turns out the public likes the Free more, Leatherman wins.  If on the other hand, the public ends up prefering the Wave... Leatherman wins  .

Let's say they put it up against the Spirit and the public decided against the Free, Leatherman ends up "promoting" a tool of a competing brand.

How many times has it been said on this forum alone that the Wave is a better tool than the Free, and that the Wave still rules this size tool-class.

Is there a better way to promote a tool that's been on the market for just over 20 years...?

I would say, well played Leatherman, well played  .

[ZapWizard]

For those who think the spring force is too high: You could modify the tool to use only one spring arm. The spring would have to be moved to the center of the tool to ensure even force on it.
The springs are 0.030" (0.75mm) thick. You could alter the stack to use just one washer, or two thinner washers to replace the missing spring.
I may try this out myself as I have some other parts to order from McMaster.

[NetsNJ]

Nobody is going to look at my grey sheath, the way it looks now, and think "he has the best MT out there." 

 

[Happy Gilmore]

(Image removed from quote.)

For those who think the spring force is too high: You could modify the tool to use only one spring arm. The spring would have to be moved to the center of the tool to ensure even force on it.
The springs are 0.030" (0.75mm) thick. You could alter the stack to use just one washer, or two thinner washers to replace the missing spring.
I may try this out myself as I have some other parts to order from McMaster.

Thanks! That's really helpful. Wish I had access to a mill to make some of these custom parts. Would love to have the Signal in 3D..I always felt there is potential for other tools to be slotted in for the whistle/rod and the sharpener.

[Sam Lim]

(Image removed from quote.)

For those who think the spring force is too high: You could modify the tool to use only one spring arm. The spring would have to be moved to the center of the tool to ensure even force on it.
The springs are 0.030" (0.75mm) thick. You could alter the stack to use just one washer, or two thinner washers to replace the missing spring.
I may try this out myself as I have some other parts to order from McMaster.

Hey Zap! Really like what you have done on the other thread for the parts ideas. 

Wouldn't moving of that spring to the centre further hinders the "easy" extraction of the tools? That will also bring the tools closer to the outer tools, making the rolling action to be more painful than it already is. There are reviews mentioning rolling the implements out hurts the thumb because of the 4 outer tools does not roll. I felt the same way on mine. Longevity of a single spring is a little questionable though it have to be tested in the long run.

[Raoul Octav]

I did the one spring thing, and many other arrangements.
problem is, when you move it to the middle the implements are harder to open, AND the main tools, due to clumping (finnaly understood it) open the smaller implements.
See why they used 2 springs. It makes sense.

[Raoul Octav]

What i taught, is moving the springs next to the scales, put a stronger magnet to avoid toold clumping and... Honestly given the situation, seems LMN did it the best way.
Altough, i believe they over complicated the solution

[george1]

As l was traveling to the US from Australia, l decided to buy the new Free P4 online from LM before l left home in order to give myself plenty of time for delivery.
A day or so after l arrived l got an email asking me to contact the Sales team. Basically they needed a room number before they would ship it to my hotel. l paid for the expedited shipping and in the end they got it to me Alabama in about 24 hours which l thought was very impressive.
Obviously l haven't given it any real use but my first impressions are that l think l'm going to like it.
Overall l rate the concept, design and quality as a 9.5 out of 10.
However overall the tool selection is not ideal for my needs and l would score it 8/10.
My main issue is the lack of a problem file. As others have suggested they should off a version wigh a full length diamond file instead of the poor serrated blade. A compromise could have been to at least have one surface diamond coated on the current file
A secondary complaint is the phillips screwdriver.
Cheers
George

[gerleatherberman]

As l was traveling to the US from Australia, l decided to buy the new Free P4 online from LM before l left home in order to give myself plenty of time for delivery.
A day or so after l arrived l got an email asking me to contact the Sales team. Basically they needed a room number before they would ship it to my hotel. l paid for the expedited shipping and in the end they got it to me Alabama in about 24 hours which l thought was very impressive.
Obviously l haven't given it any real use but my first impressions are that l think l'm going to like it.
Overall l rate the concept, design and quality as a 9.5 out of 10.
However overall the tool selection is not ideal for my needs and l would score it 8/10.
My main issue is the lack of a problem file. As others have suggested they should off a version wigh a full length diamond file instead of the poor serrated blade. A compromise could have been to at least have one surface diamond coated on the current file
A secondary complaint is the phillips screwdriver.
Cheers
George

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and experience with your P4, George!

Couldn't agree more with dumping the long SE blade and getting a Wave-style file. I would go a step further and want a newly designed file with a diamond coated side and a precision cut cross-cut side like the Rebar(same kind of cut the small P file has).
I can live with the phillips driver. It works very well on most phillips screws. 
Just want LM to make a slip-over adapter to fit their proprietary bit-kit bits.

[george1]

Gerleatherberman,
Totally agree about LM needing to sort out a bit adapter for the Free models.
Hopefully this will happen in the next 3 months otherwise l will need to make something up myself.
My thoughts are that the design for such a bit adapter is not complicated and that this would be a perfect 3D metal printed item.

[gerleatherberman]

  & 

I am considering grinding the phillips down to accommodate an adaptor. Only problem is, that if I screw it up, parts aren't available. 

But, as you said, hopefully within a few months there will be an option. 

[george1]

I also forgot to mention that l also enquired about purchasing the pocket clip and was told that all the P4's now ship with the pocket clip.
However there was no lanyard attachment with mine; no big deal as l don't use the the lanyard attachment but just thought l'd mention it in case someone wants one.

[Walley]

I havent been around here for a while and really stopped by to see what people were saying about the Free series. I'm a bit surprised that alot of members here seem to like it? i just cant get on board with the tool selection, the metal filing attracting magnets and the locking tabs sticking out on the handle. i wear a Surge on my side 50hrs a week so i may be a bit jaded...i'm always comparing other tools to it, and they all fall short for my needs. maybe if they had one with replaceable bits and/or file/saw socket i would think differently, but if feel like the Free series are far from the best they have made like they are advertised.

[gerleatherberman]

I havent been around here for a while and really stopped by to see what people were saying about the Free series. I'm a bit surprised that alot of members here seem to like it? i just cant get on board with the tool selection, the metal filing attracting magnets and the locking tabs sticking out on the handle. i wear a Surge on my side 50hrs a week so i may be a bit jaded...i'm always comparing other tools to it, and they all fall short for my needs. maybe if they had one with replaceable bits and/or file/saw socket i would think differently, but if feel like the Free series are far from the best they have made like they are advertised.

Indeed. Many members mirror your feelings about the Free series. LM really did a bad job with promoting the Free P series. They went after the Wave-user market and the Free P2/P4 isn't going to replace a Wave in a work environment. I feel the market for the P series the same as high-end knives. Not all that practical, but well appreciated, for the design and quality. The tool is really awesome to use, but isn't very practical relative to the Wave in work environments.

I carried mine for several weeks and with minding where I laid the P4 down, managed to avoid a lot of metal debris and dust(I restore antiques, so steel wool and I are best friends..haha). The little bit I did get in/on the tool was easily blown off/out with compressed air or removed with packing tape.

And....The Surge is in a class of its' own. Can't really think of a tool that is more capable. 

[Mike 56]

I have made bit adapters to fit my Wingman, Vic combo tool and straight screwdriver. They are easy and cheap to make. I am getting my P-2 tomorrow. I will check it out and see if they will work on it.




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