Any love for the Craftsman?

kamakiri · **Reply #120 on:** April 30, 2019, 03:33:21 AM

Quote from: MiniChamp on April 30, 2019, 02:36:33 AM

Why "mistakenly"? The name Artisan (which is Craftsman in French) for the model 136k seems to have been adopted from a Canadian catalog in order to avoid confusion between this model and what most of us now call Craftsman. A good idea, IMO.

Because it's clearly and repeatedly called a Craftsman over *decades* in the known US catalogs. The Artisan 1 & 2 reference in the one SMICO catalog is for both fish scaler/ruler Handyman *and* (US) Craftsman c. 1980. And, yes, I know it is a literal French translation for 'Craftsman', but there are similar changes/translations in the SMICO catalog for several other models. None of those seem to be misused. So I'm not sure how this mistake was made or propagated for the Craftsman name, but it's still wrong. Should we start calling a 60's Handwerkermesser an Aritsan 1?

So for much of the history, the 91mm Master Craftsman had the additional metal saw over the 84mm Craftsman and typically
did not have the toothpick and tweezers.

I'd appreciate it if someone had a single catalog or document that shows a 136ka labelled anything *but* Craftsman.

Barry Rowland · **Reply #121 on:** April 30, 2019, 03:39:02 AM

Kamakiri, this is probably a dumb question, but what should it be called then? The whole Master Craftsman/Craftsman name always seemed confusing to me too.

Huntsman · **Reply #122 on:** April 30, 2019, 03:49:46 AM

@Kamakiri - Pretty confused with your posts mate

In the Wiki - The main factors for distinguishing separate pages is:
1. Toolset
2. Length

Currently we have pages for:
A. Master Craftsman - A 91mm five layer SAK - That is a Ranger with Phillips not corkscrew
B. Craftsman - A 91mm six layer SAK - That adds one layer to the Master Craftsman (hence my comment) had a tool change (fish scaler --> pliers) around 85
C. Master Craftsman Small - A 84mm five layer SAK - That is the 84mm version of the 91mm MC

We also refer to the Space Shuttle and Astronaut variations - which as they had the same toolset share these pages
- And I agree the naming and dates here is a bit confusing - If you can clarify (see comment below) - Great

In the WIki we usually, or at least often, refer to the corresponding 84mm/91mm version in 'Related Tools' section of the 91mm/84mm page
- Although not in this case - So that is easily fixed
We rarely refer to the old numbering system eg 136k - Which we probably should - This can be updated over time.

We also know that Victorinox did not always use the descriptive names and often re-used some descriptive names
- And we also know that some importers and/or markets gave the models different names....
Both of which of course are quite confusing when looking back over time and across the globe.
.............. All of this is explained in the Wiki

Are you saying these pages are incomplete / not correct ?

Quote from: kamakiri on April 29, 2019, 05:48:36 PM

It never was. At any point in production history, it was bigger than the Craftsman (mistakenly called an Artisan). Literally bigger when you consider it was 84mm and the Master Craftsman was 91mm. All the US catalogs support this thinking, back to the early 50's. And I suspect earlier.

Are you saying there was no six-layer 91mm Craftsman and it was always 84mm
Because if so - I have a six-layer model with that toolset !! (... and a five layer 91mm 'Master Craftsman' ) ......So that is not correct
- And also if there was a six-layer 84mm Craftsman - It is missing from the Wiki - As we only have the five-layer 84mm Master Craftsman in the Wiki - Can you clarify what you mean please ?

Also please can you be very explicit about what changes you believe need to happen

Quote from: kamakiri on April 29, 2019, 08:13:09 AM

........... but that page needs LOTS of fixin'...........

eg Replace incorrect section " text text text " with " new text new text new text " - Ideally showing evidence of the reason for the change - eg catalogue screen shot or point to a webpage

Huntsman · **Reply #123 on:** April 30, 2019, 05:45:53 AM

@Kamkiri - Right - Just realised that you were probably referring to the 84mm model in the Wiki which is labelled as the Artisan/Small Fieldmaster
... which the History section mentions was referred to as a Craftsman in some markets/at one time

So to my model list I will add:
D. Artisan / Fieldmaster Small - An 84mm four layer SAK - That is the 84mm version of the 91mm Fieldmaster - Known as a Craftsman in some markets

Final point in my post still applies - Please suggest explicit changes that you think need to be made!

kamakiri · **Reply #124 on:** April 30, 2019, 09:23:42 PM

I could do that, but it would take time, and I'm not going to re-draft the entire page(s) on thin hopes that people understand and accept them. I already see a fair amount of resistance for an explanation that covers your original question about the Craftsman and Master Craftsman relationship. And this isn't over a brief time in history or 'one time' like you suggest...decades as far as I can tell from the catalogs available.

The other problem is that any edits I propose may require more than just single page edits, but major structural change for the site. I don't think anyone is interested in that.

Perhaps something more like this could be done for the 136ka:

https://sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Victorinox+Handyman+7236maU

And the Handyman page that it points to:
https://sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Victorinox+Handyman

...though it doesn't 'point back' at it (the 7236maU).

kamakiri · **Reply #125 on:** April 30, 2019, 09:40:25 PM

From the 50's 8 model catalog:

kamakiri · **Reply #126 on:** April 30, 2019, 09:44:17 PM

From the '54 brochure:

kamakiri · **Reply #127 on:** April 30, 2019, 10:00:17 PM

From the (early) '60s catalog:

kamakiri · **Reply #128 on:** April 30, 2019, 10:09:11 PM

The later '60s 26 model catalog just changes prices from the above to $18.50 and $16.20 respectively.

From the '76 dealer catalog:

MiniChamp · **Reply #129 on:** May 01, 2019, 12:40:51 AM

Quote from: kamakiri on April 30, 2019, 03:33:21 AM

Because it's clearly and repeatedly called a Craftsman over *decades* in the known US catalogs.

These "known US catalogs" also use the name Camper for the model 234U that most of us currently call Spartan. So? Also, the following page from a 1979 Hoffritz catalog shows that they used the name Craftsman for the model that we now call Explorer, the name Tinker for the 58mm model that we now call Classic, etc. Are we somehow obligated to adopt this as well? How?

Quote

So I'm not sure how this mistake was made

It's not a mistake. I'm sure that whoever introduced the name Artisan for the model 136k knew very well that this model was called Craftsmen in the "known US catalogs." They adopted a variation of that name to avoid confusion with the other models called Craftsman.

Quote

or propagated

It seems to have been adopted by the community because it makes sense.

kamakiri · **Reply #130 on:** May 01, 2019, 12:49:21 AM

I believe the Hoffritz models *should* be mentioned. As well as the BSA renaming examples. Isn't that what a Wiki is for? ...ALL the relevant and available info?

And I'm sure it *is* a mistake. On purpose or not. Mistake.

Huntsman · **Reply #131 on:** May 01, 2019, 02:53:21 AM

All right - Thanks for all the piccies - Great

And I reckon you have answered my question on Craftsman vs Master Craftsman - I never knew the 4 layer 84mm 'Artisan' was called a Craftsman in the US

In terms of Wiki changes this look fairly easy to fix for me - ..

You are right I would not want to completely restructure the Wiki pages - But these changes would at least partially 'fix' and at least be a big improvement ...

Explain that the model that we have listed as the Artisan was known as a Craftsman in the US - This is already there - But we could wordsmith it a bit!
Add in the old model numbers
Add in a some more cross references from the 84s to the 91s and vv
Add in some more references to the dealer catalogues and names!
Maybe put in some Name Disambiguation statements, like we have elsewhere, in the Craftsman/Artisan pages

The super confusing picture is this one

Quote from: kamakiri on April 30, 2019, 10:09:11 PM

The later '60s 26 model catalog just changes prices from the above to $18.50 and $16.20 respectively.
From the '76 dealer catalog:

As this shows the six layer model - which we currently know as the Craftsman as the Master Craftsman - Oh Boy
As some of us have pointed out before - Don't you just love Vic's renaming!!

I have thought about this before a bit, and it's only a problem now that 1.The world is a global market 2. There are us SAK collectors and enthusiasts around
At the time it probably made perfect sense to rename or reuse models

kamakiri · **Reply #132 on:** May 01, 2019, 03:30:06 AM

Sounds like reasonable changes without modifying the page structure. Thanks for taking the time to review what I posted.

Quote from: Huntsman on May 01, 2019, 02:53:21 AM

I have thought about this before a bit, and it's only a problem now that 1.The world is a global market 2. There are us SAK collectors and enthusiasts around
At the time it probably made perfect sense to rename or reuse models

Understood. This is one area that it makes it hard to organize or reorganize based on the various names. Knowing that some of the names were reused for both upgrades/layer additions *and* outright changes makes it difficult to keep the names straight when organizing by toolsets/layers/lengths and using name pages. I think the '79 Hoffritz info can be incorporated the same way.

Cross-referencing everything should work with the existing structure in the manner that you outlined. And should minimize the confusion going forward.

kamakiri · **Reply #133 on:** May 02, 2019, 08:38:34 PM

Quote from: Huntsman on May 01, 2019, 02:53:21 AM

All right - Thanks for all the piccies - Great

And I reckon you have answered my question on Craftsman vs Master Craftsman - I never knew the 4 layer 84mm 'Artisan' was called a Craftsman in the US

In terms of Wiki changes this look fairly easy to fix for me - ..
You are right I would not want to completely restructure the Wiki pages - But these changes would at least partially 'fix' and at least be a big improvement ...
Explain that the model that we have listed as the Artisan was known as a Craftsman in the US - This is already there - But we could wordsmith it a bit!
Add in the old model numbers
Add in a some more cross references from the 84s to the 91s and vv
Add in some more references to the dealer catalogues and names!
Maybe put in some Name Disambiguation statements, like we have elsewhere, in the Craftsman/Artisan pages

I think the layout and revisions should mirror the Champion page as it deals with the history in a similar manner. Various layer configurations and about the same history range for the known catalogs.
https://sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Champion

Might be easier to start there as a lot of the same info applies regarding History, Model Names and Numbers.

kamakiri · **Reply #134 on:** May 03, 2019, 04:58:30 PM

From the bottom, c. '72 Master Craftsman, Early '60's Master Craftsman, c. '76 84mm 'Master Craftsman (Small)'

Has the SW29ARNB saw and an aluminum bird head spacer:

Thunderpants · **Reply #135 on:** May 03, 2019, 05:18:15 PM

Wowzers, I never even knew that small '76 Master Craftsman even existed. I imagine they're ridiculously rare.

kamakiri · **Reply #136 on:** May 03, 2019, 05:47:12 PM

Quote from: Thunderpants on May 03, 2019, 05:18:15 PM

Wowzers, I never even knew that small '76 Master Craftsman even existed. I imagine they're ridiculously rare.

And I have two... that one is a Hoffritz with a H/VSSR tang stamp. The other one I have is older with a Hoffritz (HSS/VOS) tang stamp and the forged+file phillips.

.....

Two more:

'46-'51 136ka Craftsman:

'61+ 136ka Craftsman:

with aluminum birdhead spacer and polished/angled/35 tooth saw