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Blade cutting edge retention

gb Offline Cauldronborn

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Blade cutting edge retention
on: June 07, 2019, 11:32:13 PM
Hi guys

I was just wondering how everyone here found the edge retention on their SAKs?

Does anyone find a difference between Victorinox and Wenger? Vintage vs new? Or maybe the different model sizes?

I'd just like to here peoples stories and thoughts of the subject.


nz Offline Sawl Goodman

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #1 on: June 08, 2019, 12:53:49 AM
IME edge retention isn’t as good as that of knives with harder steel. The blades are easily touched up, though. On the whole I’m satisfied with their performance.

I believe all Vic models use the same steel alloy. I haven’t noticed any differences in edge retention between Vic size ranges. I only have experience of 85mm Wengers, but they seem similar to Victorinox.
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gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #2 on: June 08, 2019, 02:03:53 AM
I've never felt the edge retention was lacking, and I personally prefer ease of sharpening over edge retention. Both Victorinox and Wenger knives take a good edge quite easily in my experience.


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us Offline cwsmith17

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #3 on: June 08, 2019, 02:50:47 AM
I agree, the ability to resharpen the blade is much more important. My Compact has never let me down. :like:
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us Offline Aloha

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #4 on: June 08, 2019, 03:56:04 AM
Been using my Wengers a lot more and I don't notice any difference in performance as compared to Victorinox.  My OC Farmer and SI seem to be about the same as any other Victorinox I have in terms of edge retention.  I do prefer a blade that keeps its edge longer.  I can sharpen most steels so its not a problem or burden for me.  I typically strop to regain the keenness of my SAK edges. 
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us Offline cody6268

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #5 on: June 08, 2019, 03:58:57 AM
I've really never noticed a real difference between Victorinox and Wenger; they're both the same steel I would presume, which is most similar to 440A. It holds an edge for a decent amount of time, and is really easy to bring back to a razor on a traditional Arkansas stone. 440C, 420HC, and 154CM I can sharpen, albeit with some difficulty, on diamond hones (it's especially true with old 440C Bucks and Gerbers from the 1970s). D2 and other high performance steels--I'll have to send that off to a professional. I can't possibly sharpen it.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 04:46:09 AM by cody6268 »


nz Offline Sawl Goodman

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #6 on: June 08, 2019, 04:20:59 AM
I know someone who boasted that his cheap knife retained its edge for much longer than my SAKs. Then he found it was a devil to sharpen compared to mine. >:D
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Offline gadgetman7

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #7 on: June 08, 2019, 05:43:31 AM
I find it a little lacking myself. I typically carry knives that have S35vn, M390 or 20CV and have no issues sharpening them on stones. The trick is to get either high quality stones or a system like the Spyderco Sharpmaker.


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us Offline Buzzbait

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #8 on: June 08, 2019, 05:54:59 AM
I don’t mind the Vic steel. It’s a bit soft, but it sharpens quite readily. The edge will often roll instead of chipping. The edge rolls are easily fixed with a sharpening steel, or the bottom of a coffee cup.

I have found the steel on my Wenger Standard Issues to be a bit better in edge retention, but maybe also a bit less stainless. It’s all a matter of trade-offs.
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ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #9 on: June 08, 2019, 11:00:45 AM
I really like the ease of sharpening in the field. :like:
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spam Offline comis

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #10 on: June 08, 2019, 12:40:42 PM
I don’t mind the Vic steel. It’s a bit soft, but it sharpens quite readily. The edge will often roll instead of chipping. The edge rolls are easily fixed with a sharpening steel, or the bottom of a coffee cup.

I have found the steel on my Wenger Standard Issues to be a bit better in edge retention, but maybe also a bit less stainless. It’s all a matter of trade-offs.

Like most people, I too agreed Vic steel is on the softer side, and I think the word edge retention is a relative terms--if you are coming from a knife enthusiast's prospective, Vic steel may not be a good comparison to all the 'super steel' you could find on the market today.  But as a "user" steel, I think it has "sufficient" edge retention and toughness, and everything could be restore to its glory literally within minutes on a Spyderco Sharpmaker.

I think when we are looking at a mass market product, most people may choose value/ease of maintenance over superb material/premium.


us Offline Nix

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #11 on: June 08, 2019, 02:50:22 PM
 :iagree:

I tend to gravitate to steels with higher hardnesses and longer edge retention, the fancy stuff. However, I also tend to strop or sharpen a blade on a regular basis, so my Vic's or Wengers are rarely dull. From that perspective, Vic and Wenger's steel is more than adequate for me and the way I use it.


us Offline Buzzbait

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #12 on: June 08, 2019, 03:07:43 PM
:iagree:

I tend to gravitate to steels with higher hardnesses and longer edge retention, the fancy stuff. However, I also tend to strop or sharpen a blade on a regular basis, so my Vic's or Wengers are rarely dull. From that perspective, Vic and Wenger's steel is more than adequate for me and the way I use it.

I think it’s also important to note that Vic and Wenger have both ground their blades thinner than most tactical folders, and even many traditional knives. So they still cut well after they’ve started to lose their edge.

I find that my SAK edges usually roll long before they actually dull. I can “steel the edge” on a seemingly dull knife, with no loss of actual steel to the blade, and be right back in the game. I’d argue that a sharpening steel is probably the more important pocket carry for a SAK than a sharpening stone.
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us Offline Myron

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #13 on: June 08, 2019, 03:09:09 PM
Cauldronborn,

Here is a link to a thread I started last year about sharpening.  Lots of people chipped in with their preferred methods.  It's a bit off-topic since your question pertains to edge retention once sharp, but I thought you might find it useful if you haven't seen it yet.

Myron

https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,78569.msg1759676.html#msg1759676


se Offline Fortytwo

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #14 on: June 08, 2019, 03:18:03 PM
I was put into a situation where I had to split som firewood with a beater Spartan and the edge quickly lost its edge which is basically to be expected, it's a pocket knife and not an axe, but there doesn't seem to be any actual damage to the edge and a quick sharpening should get it back into perfect shape.
Of note regarding the softer steel is that it is a bit easy to remove a lot of material if you use a grinding method of sharpening and that it's fairly common  to find knives where the blades have almost nothing left to them, e.g. this Swisschamp I got for modding fodder. There are of course a lot of less aggressive sharpening methods with my favourites being either honing steel or the Lansky turnbox.



us Offline Aloha

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #15 on: June 08, 2019, 03:25:22 PM
I failed to say, I am happy with my SAKs steel.  One very big advantage of the softer steel is they aren't fussy about how they'll sharpen up.  Pretty much any method will get the edge back.   Everyone has a technique they like. For a pocket knife to be so versatile as a SAK is theres not much downside to the steel.     
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us Offline VICMAN

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #16 on: June 08, 2019, 04:34:13 PM
I think it’s also important to note that Vic and Wenger have both ground their blades thinner than most tactical folders, and even many traditional knives. So they still cut well after they’ve started to lose their edge.

I find that my SAK edges usually roll long before they actually dull. I can “steel the edge” on a seemingly dull knife, with no loss of actual steel to the blade, and be right back in the game. I’d argue that a sharpening steel is probably the more important pocket carry for a SAK than a sharpening stone.

 :iagree:

I always have a pocket sharpening steel with me and touch up my knives before they get too dull, to prevent having to remove any metal.


gb Offline AimlessWanderer

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #17 on: June 08, 2019, 06:52:21 PM
I'm never usually too far from a mug of tea, so that's light steeling taken care of :D


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gb Offline Cauldronborn

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #18 on: June 08, 2019, 09:51:54 PM
Woah, I didn't expect so may replies so quickly.  Its really interesting to hear everyone's experiences though it seems I've rude and didn't include my own in the OP.

I have small collection of users is mainly made up of recently made Victorinox models with one older 84mm Climber and a Wenger of unknown age, like many of you I've generally found them to be good enough for everyday use. My modern Vics all seem to wear at about the same rate though my Wenger does seem to last a bit longer and I'm not sure about my 84mm Climber.

While I find the edge retention fine for everyday use and I do agree that the softer steel is much easier to sharpen the frequent sharpening/blade maintenance to be somewhat frustrating. I used to volunteer at a charity store were I would help break down the cardboard boxes and I just gave up using my SAKs there. I do wish it was better on at least the "outdoor" or "heavy use" ranges like the 93mm, 111mm or 130mm.

Some of my frustration may be due sharpening technique, Myron's thread looks to have some interesting info.


 




And thanks for the link to your thread Myr


nz Offline Sawl Goodman

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #19 on: June 08, 2019, 11:52:58 PM
Corrugated cardboard in particular is brutal to SAK blades. A box cutter with snap off blades is a much better choice.
 
Myron’s thread is full of excellent tips. I’ve learned that sharpening is straightforward once you have the angle mastered and that little and often is key. I can touch up my work Trailmaster’s blade up to four times a day if it has heavy use.
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us Offline Butch

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #20 on: June 09, 2019, 05:58:37 AM
If a blade just needs a little touchup, a piece of fir or pine wood work extremely well. Just drag the blade backward like you would on a leather strap. An old discarded belt works well too.
when I need to really sharpen I love the ezelap followed by the Vic pocket sharpener. The Ezelap diamond will work very well on the hardest steel even the Buck SV 30 blades.
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spam Offline comis

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #21 on: June 09, 2019, 09:58:56 AM
Some pretty good tips for field sharpening without stones/devices, thank you for all the suggestions, gonna give them a try sometime!  :tu:


us Offline Aloha

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #22 on: June 09, 2019, 05:05:47 PM
Cardboard is nasty stuff on edges.  I second using a box cutter, Gerber EAB comes to mind but any would be good.  Last year when I moved to where I am now we broke down a lot of boxes.  I used S30V, VG10, A2, 420HC, O1, 154CM, 1095, and SAK steel just for fun.  It wasn't surprising my SAK was dulled pretty quick.  Using a box cutter with replaceable blades is a great option when breaking down a lot of boxes. 
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us Offline theonew

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #23 on: June 09, 2019, 08:29:26 PM
I once cut the flap off of a box of printer parts that had come from China. The knife was A2 steel hardened to about 60 HRC and was screaming sharp to begin with. After about 10 inches of that cardboard it was completely dull. I could draw the edge across my palm using considerable force without cutting myself :ahhh


Offline gadgetman7

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #24 on: June 10, 2019, 01:44:00 AM
I’ve had knives dull quickly too. Occasionally I’ll get the edge to thin for the hardness and it will roll the steel. That’s why I normally sharpen SAKs at 20° per side. The edge seems to last longer that way. Just my option though.


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us Offline nate j

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #25 on: June 10, 2019, 04:40:36 AM
I don't often have to break down a lot of cardboard, but when I do, I strop the blade on the cardboard as I go along.


Offline skidoosh

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #26 on: June 10, 2019, 06:52:28 AM
There has been a SAK made with ZDP-189. I would love to see higher end steels. I don't find them a real challenge to sharpen.


spam Offline comis

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Re: Blade cutting edge retention
Reply #27 on: June 10, 2019, 10:16:57 AM
I once cut the flap off of a box of printer parts that had come from China. The knife was A2 steel hardened to about 60 HRC and was screaming sharp to begin with. After about 10 inches of that cardboard it was completely dull. I could draw the edge across my palm using considerable force without cutting myself :ahhh

I think edge retention is an equation of many factors which affects the performance of a blade, geometry, material, tempering, sharpening could all contribute to that.  Sometimes the edge of a blade could easily be affected if it is overheated during sharpening, and unless I sharpen the blade to an 'new' edge, edge retention/toughness could be irregular.  :think:




I’ve had knives dull quickly too. Occasionally I’ll get the edge to thin for the hardness and it will roll the steel. That’s why I normally sharpen SAKs at 20° per side. The edge seems to last longer that way. Just my option though.


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I think that too is the recommended sharpening angle by Victorinox, given their experience of their product, I would definitely trust they should know what work best for their blade.  :cheers:


 

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