Question on F Schar Exposed rivet knife

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This one has the scale shrinking issue.  My question is, is it a genuine Victorinox?  Tang says F Schar Zurich and Inoxyd:

[VICMAN]

This one has the scale shrinking issue.  My question is, is it a genuine Victorinox?  Tang says F Schar Zurich and Inoxyd:

Cool SAK FB!

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Cool SAK FB!

Thank you Vicman! 

[jazzbass]

This one has the scale shrinking issue.  My question is, is it a genuine Victorinox?  Tang says F Schar Zurich and Inoxyd:

Yes, genuine. Pretty common back then to have knife seller names on the tang instead of "Armee Suisse". The shrinking of the scales makes me think this is a cellulose nitrate (CN) knife from the mid 1940s, say c. 1944. Most CN scaled knives are "Armee Suisse/Victorinox" stamped, and by the time they started stamping "Inoxyd" on the back they ad move to cellulose acetate scales. So I'd intuit that this is one of the later CN scaled knives they made.

[Aloha]

Congrats FB.  Thats a neat can opener too, I don't think I've seen that one before  . 

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Thank you JB and Aloha! 

[Myron]

Beauty knife, FB!

Nicely done on the IDfication, Jazzbass. 

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Beauty knife, FB!

Thank you Myron! 

[kamakiri]

Yes, genuine. Pretty common back then to have knife seller names on the tang instead of "Armee Suisse". The shrinking of the scales makes me think this is a cellulose nitrate (CN) knife from the mid 1940s, say c. 1944. Most CN scaled knives are "Armee Suisse/Victorinox" stamped, and by the time they started stamping "Inoxyd" on the back they ad move to cellulose acetate scales. So I'd intuit that this is one of the later CN scaled knives they made.

Isn't this your 'pwar' opener configuration? Am I misunderstanding the era or date designations?

[jazzbass]

The shrinking of the scales makes me think this is a cellulose nitrate (CN) knife from the mid 1940s, say c. 1944. Most CN scaled knives are "Armee Suisse/Victorinox" stamped, and by the time they started stamping "Inoxyd" on the back they ad move to cellulose acetate scales. So I'd intuit that this is one of the later CN scaled knives they made.

So, and not for the first time, I'm an idiot. I looked at this knife, saw shrinking scales (almost always 1941-1943 cellulose nitrate) + "Inoxyd" (typically 1944-1948) and immediately went to c. 1944 for this. Didn't even see the very obvious post 46 crab claw can opener  . So this knife has to be from c. 1946. Question is - what are the shrinking scales? Are they older CN scales that they found and used because - why waste? Or are they the newer cellulose acetate scales that are shrinking like the older CN scales? Typically you see CA scales sweat vinegar and disintegrate, and not shrink like the CN scales. And you see this on a lot of pre-46 Inoxyd knives, so you know Victorinox was fully into CA by the time the 46 can opener switch happened. So.. old stock CN scales used on a newer knife? Or shrinking CA scales due to exposure to heat/some other environmental factor? 

I need to not post sleep deprived.

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Thank you for the update.
These scales seem of lesser quality than many others from around that time period, so I would tend to think they may be the CN scales you mention.
They are a deep red color.  I didn’t notice the shrinkage at first glance, but once I took a good look at it and photographed it, there’s no denying it’s there.

Take care, get some rest!

[kamakiri]

So, and not for the first time, I'm an idiot. I looked at this knife, saw shrinking scales (almost always 1941-1943 cellulose nitrate) + "Inoxyd" (typically 1944-1948) and immediately went to c. 1944 for this. Didn't even see the very obvious post 46 crab claw can opener  . So this knife has to be from c. 1946. Question is - what are the shrinking scales? Are they older CN scales that they found and used because - why waste? Or are they the newer cellulose acetate scales that are shrinking like the older CN scales? Typically you see CA scales sweat vinegar and disintegrate, and not shrink like the CN scales. And you see this on a lot of pre-46 Inoxyd knives, so you know Victorinox was fully into CA by the time the 46 can opener switch happened. So.. old stock CN scales used on a newer knife? Or shrinking CA scales due to exposure to heat/some other environmental factor? 

I need to not post sleep deprived.

Thanks for the clarification!  ...but don't be so hard on yourself!

[MiniChamp]

So this knife has to be from c. 1946. Question is - what are the shrinking scales? Are they older CN scales that they found and used because - why waste? Or are they the newer cellulose acetate scales that are shrinking like the older CN scales? Typically you see CA scales sweat vinegar and disintegrate, and not shrink like the CN scales. And you see this on a lot of pre-46 Inoxyd knives, so you know Victorinox was fully into CA by the time the 46 can opener switch happened. So.. old stock CN scales used on a newer knife? Or shrinking CA scales due to exposure to heat/some other environmental factor? 

Interesting questions.   While I find it hard to tell from the provided images, it isn't completely clear to me that the correct description for the deformation of these scales is "shrinking." I wonder if the visible shrinking in some directions isn't accompanied by swelling in other directions. Is it?

The attached image shows a Tourist from the same generation (it has the same INOXYD stamp on the back of the main blade) with more significantly deformed scales. I believe that the cause for the deformation in this case is exposure to excessive heat. This SAK is otherwise in good condition (good snap, etc.) and while the scales are somewhat deformed, they are solidly attached and seem to be stable (it has been in my possession for more than two years now; so far, I have seen no sign of decomposition or any other change in the scales). I wonder if FB's SAK isn't similar.

[Mechanickal]

I have one with the same tang stamp...
Dated ca'43.

Will need to check for shrinking now...

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I wonder if the visible shrinking in some directions isn't accompanied by swelling in other directions. Is it?

Thank you for showing your PWAR knife.
I cannot find evidence of any other defect except for some exposure of the liner which made me think of the shrink word.  The scales are tight otherwise and no swell in other directions.
Most of the liner exposure is in equal quantity on the top and bottom of the front scale.  The back scale just barely shows some top and bottom liner.

[MiniChamp]

I cannot find evidence of any other defect except for some exposure of the liner which made me think of the shrink word.  The scales are tight otherwise and no swell in other directions.
Most of the liner exposure is in equal quantity on the top and bottom of the front scale.  The back scale just barely shows some top and bottom liner.

Thanks for the information. The reason that I thought there might be some swelling is that it looks to me like some of the exposed edges of the rivets may be a little recessed and lie below the level of the surrounding plastic. AFAIK, these edges are made to be at the same level when the knives are new, so such a thing should indicate some expansion of the plastic in the appropriate direction. If there is no such thing, then "shrinking" is indeed the right word to describe the deformation of your scales.

[kamakiri]

Interesting questions.   While I find it hard to tell from the provided images, it isn't completely clear to me that the correct description for the deformation of these scales is "shrinking." I wonder if the visible shrinking in some directions isn't accompanied by swelling in other directions. Is it?

The attached image shows a Tourist from the same generation (it has the same INOXYD stamp on the back of the main blade) with more significantly deformed scales. I believe that the cause for the deformation in this case is exposure to excessive heat. This SAK is otherwise in good condition (good snap, etc.) and while the scales are somewhat deformed, they are solidly attached and seem to be stable (it has been in my possession for more than two years now; so far, I have seen no sign of decomposition or any other change in the scales). I wonder if FB's SAK isn't similar.

Yours looks like the 'plastic' deformation (permanent from stamping process) is/was undone by an elastic reaction to heat. Not unlike 'memory' metals or plastics like are used for eyeglass frames.  I don't think that's the same as is going on with FB's scales which seem to be more of a chemical reaction/degradation or outgassing.

[jazzbass]

The attached image shows a Tourist from the same generation (it has the same INOXYD stamp on the back of the main blade) with more significantly deformed scales. I believe that the cause for the deformation in this case is exposure to excessive heat. This SAK is otherwise in good condition (good snap, etc.) and while the scales are somewhat deformed, they are solidly attached and seem to be stable (it has been in my possession for more than two years now; so far, I have seen no sign of decomposition or any other change in the scales). I wonder if FB's SAK isn't similar.

Great picture. This is exactly the type of scale damage I was thinking of when I mentioned heat exposure of the CA(B) scales. CN scales tend to shrink fairly uniformly IME, while (heat?) damaged CA sales end up looking exactly like yours. Hard to tell in the pics which FBs knife is, but some of the warping around the head pin (the one the main blade attaches to) is very similar to the damage on your knife.

The other thing I was going to post before but wanted to do some more investigation, was the discoloration of part of the logo and the back pin. This discoloration is much more indicative of CA scales and their vinegar outgassing as opposed to CN scales. Looking at all the CN scaled knives I have that are in advanced stages of scale shrinkage, there is little to no discoloration of the nickel silver elements. That said, the discoloration in these photos may just be lighting - need FB to confirm.

 

Thanks for the clarification!  ...but don't be so hard on yourself!

No problem and thanks.

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Here are some more photos:

[jnoxyd]

One more dealer's knife with shrunken scales.

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One more dealer's knife with shrunken scales.
(Image removed from quote.)
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Thank you for adding the photos.  That looks like what has happened to mine.