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Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.

Chako · 256 · 11929
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ca Offline Chako

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Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
on: January 27, 2020, 12:33:12 PM
Uh oh...I think I will be getting into a spot of trouble again. I used to build my systems and then bought my current system in 2013, an ASUS Tytan G30AB. Now that system has been awesome and to my mind, has been the system that has lasted the longest without needing any upgrading. Recently, I have noticed that the Nvidia GTX 770 is getting a bit long in the tooth, especially on the newer games. I did my research and should be receiving an ASUS Evo Edition GeForce GTX 1660 Super dual fan graphics card after noticing it is the current sweet spot for price and performance. It also beats my old graphics card easily and for less power usage at that. That card should come in sometime this week...and I can't wait.

My current processor, I have no issues with, even for today. I have never felt any lag with it, and I work with School Board computers all the time, which reinforces how fast my home system is. Currently, I am using the CPU that the ASUS came with, an i7 4770k processor. I know it is a 4th gen from Intel and uses a socket 1150. I have noticed all the newer Intel CPUs are now using a socket 1151. That sort of throws out a simple CPU upgrade. I am thinking I should maybe upgrade the CPU and motherboard...and which also results in my upgrading to faster RAM. My old system has 16Gb of DDR 3 running at 791 MHz. Honestly, I have never had any RAM issues and am fairly happy with this memory performance. Even so, If I need to upgrade the CPU and motherboard, new RAM will probably need to be factored into the equation. Not sure if I can even use my older RAM in a newer system...or even if that would be thing...I haven't checked out on RAM prices...but if the past is a road map, RAM should not be all that expensive in the grander scheme of things.

So now I am thinking about what components I may need. I am thinking I can start acquire the parts over the next few months if I decide to go this route. Seeing that the last snap shot of the industry is 7 years ago, I have started ramping up my research...which of course gives me many questions. I guess the fun part of thinking about building another system is the reading of extensive hardware reviews, etc...

So here are my questions. Feel free to jump in. I got a good tip with the buying of a new SSD drive. I have looked at those, and they aren't as expensive as I once thought they were. The local Best Buy usually has a few on sale for less than 100 bucks Canadian for a 480/500Gb version.

1. The all time question...AMD or Intel. After reading an online article, I now know that Intel is still the single process winner, but AMD is not offering multi-thread CPUs for cheaper. I have owned AMD systems back in the mid to late 90s simple because you got more bang for your buck. I do mostly gaming, but I am wondering if the slower CPU is that much of a downer for a computer gaming system. Thus, trying to figure out if I will go AMD or stay with Intel should be my first question to answer. Any ideas?

2. The CPU will dictate the motherboard. I will need to figure out what are the various chipset levels, and see if I need a top end board, or can I swing a lower end chipset. In the past, I would always go top end...but I have always wondered if I was wasting good money after bad. This will require a lot of research. I am a bit surprised I have been doing water cooling since 2013. I always assumed such systems tended to leak and ruin your computer. Now thinking if I should go air or water these days. I do not plan on overclocking, but do appreciate the overall system quietness. So many directions, and possibilities.

3. The RAM, once the top 2 are figured...should be ok. I now know I am not an overclocker as I can't be bothered to play with my CPU settings in the BIOS (anymore). I probably will get descent RAM, but RAM that I don't need to overclock. Whatever I get, 16Gb should be the starting point as my current system has that much already. More research is needed to see if more RAM is a plus or a waste. What do you guys think?

4. If I go through with this, I am thinking of maybe getting another computer case. I have always loved the weird and wacky to an extend. For instance, I have a Cooler Master HAF 932 case with an older build upstairs. I can't even remember what was inside that one, other than it is an Nvidia graphics card setup. I also have a Thermaltake Mozart TX tower featuring AMD graphics up there as well. I have appreciated my current ASUS system for being a smaller mid-tower case compared to the two previous bigger is better builds. This time around, I am a bit intrigued with mounting the PC on a wall. Not only does it free up valuable space, but it would look good if I go all lights effects and stuff like I used to do with case fans and such. I have noticed a Thermaltake P3 or P4 case that would fit the bill. My only issue, the computer is wide open to the elements with only a single glass pane for protection. The sides are wide open. I am wondering how much louder that might be with fans. On the plus side, a regular canned air attack might be all the system needs to keep the dust away. I shudder at what I will find with my current ASUS system that has been sealed for the past 7 years. So up in the air with computer cases to be honest. I could easily go upstairs and use any one of those two top end full tower cases if needed. Any ideas?

So I need to do much reading to figure out the current state of PC hardware. If I build a new system...

1. CPU - Intel or AMD? What would be a good performance upgrade from my current i7 770K processor? I know I do not want to spend a fortune on the top end. There is a sweet spot in computer hardware where you get a better bang for your buck. I just need to figure where this is these days.

2. Motherboards. I tend to go with gamer motherboards. After looking on Amazon, these motherboards are a lot less expensive than they were in the past. I think I can spend hours and hours looking this stuff up. Should be fun.

3. RAM should be easier to figure. Just got to look at the memory type, clock speeds, and refresh rates. Depending upon the case  (if I buy one with a window), will have to see if the RAM needs any lights on it, or not. Yeah, first world problem for sure.

4. Will need a new SSD. Bigger sizes and lower prices. Can't argue with that.

5. Computer case...do I need a new one? Should I keep my current system intact and use it as a backup? Should I remove the older systems upstairs and use their computer cases. Not sure I want a largish tower case these days. Only I can figure this one out for myself.

7. Power supply...not sure if I need a newer one, or re-use one of my upstairs ones. Considering those systems used SLI etc...I tended to get them at 1000W. Are newer power supplies more efficient? More research is needed I guess.

With all of that stated, I am still unsure if I should build a new system or upgrade my current system. Any thoughts? Truthfully, I have been more than happy with my current ASUS system. Even today, most of the older games I  play are silky smooth with the 770. I figure the 1660 Super will be a nice upgrade. I do not plan on getting a 4k display any time soon. Thank god, as I have seen how expensive the top end graphic cards are now these days! Ouch.

My dilemma...will I be happy with my current system with the new graphics cards...or do I start procuring parts for a new build? Either way, It is good to be reading PC hardware articles and reviews again to keep up with the current state of the PC industry. I am a bit out of touch currently.

Here are some links to the upstairs computer cases just for curiosity's sake.

Cooler Master HAF 932.

http://us.coolermaster.com/product/Detail/case/full-tower/haf-932-advanced.html

Thermaltake Mozart TX

http://www.thermaltake.co.nz/product/Chassis/fulltower/Mozarttx/ve1000sna.html
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 12:46:36 PM by Chako »
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no Offline Vidar

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #1 on: January 27, 2020, 04:22:27 PM
I'm not up to date with the latest products, so not much help there. But last time I assembled a computer I went for a configurable laptop from Clevo. Lots of choices in mainboards, screens, graphics, ram and storage - and easy to upgrade later on if needed.

I had a very specific reason that no other similar laptop seemed to be able to do back then - 3 harddrives. That is hard to come by in a reasonably sized laptop. The 3rd one is just for backups and it is formated in Linux format. That means windows can't access it unless some special program is used, which helps protect the backups from potential malware and ransom issues.

Anyway, just thought a configurable laptop might be an option worth considering too.
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ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #2 on: January 27, 2020, 05:00:48 PM
1. If it was my money, I'd buy AMD because they've got better CPU performance for the money since they released their new architecture.
By i7 770k, do you mean 7700k? I can't find a 770k.
If the 7700k is yours, I wouldn't upgrade because it would still be powerful enough for my Minecraft, but I don't know what you play. :D

7. Power supply. The only thing that matters with your current hardware is if it has enough watts and gold efficiency rating. They're cheap enough that you don't want to skimp unnecessarily....

It all depends on what you play, and if you're getting good enough FPS. :shrug:
FPS would have to be noticeablely low for me to consider upgrading.
Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

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fi Offline AlephZero

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #3 on: January 27, 2020, 09:16:37 PM
I just did a huge update on my system, so I may be of some help...

Asrock B450 Pro4
AMD Ryzen 2700X
32GB 2666Mhz DDR4


And Yeah, I went a bit overboard with the memory...  :D
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no Offline Vidar

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #4 on: January 27, 2020, 09:43:27 PM
Quote from: AlephZero on January 27, 2020, 09:16:37 PM
And Yeah, I went a bit overboard with the memory...  :D

Just about right I think  :D

Not like in the old days when we had to grow extra fingers for more short term memory. And as one can only count to 1024 using 10 fingers that was a hard limit.
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ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #5 on: January 27, 2020, 09:45:51 PM
Quote from: AlephZero on January 27, 2020, 09:16:37 PM
I just did a huge update on my system, so I may be of some help...

Asrock B450 Pro4
AMD Ryzen 2700X
32GB 2666Mhz DDR4


And Yeah, I went a bit overboard with the memory...  :D
Great setup!
32 is only two times more than the recommended amount for gaming these days.
Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

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ca Offline Chako

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #6 on: January 28, 2020, 12:53:00 AM
Sorry Don Pablo, that was a typo...my current CPU is an i7 4770k. It was a fairly top end CPU back in 2013...4th gen and all that. To be honest with you, I am fairly happy with its performance, even after all these years. With that said, if I build another system, I will probably look for something a bit more powerful if I can.

I tend to use my computer for the following things:
- Playing first person shooters, real time strategy games, etc...
- work and online researching.
- photography and Paint Shop Pro/Photoshop.

Thanks for the info Alephzero. I am going to look that gear up.  :tu:

The more I think about it, I am thinking about possibly going for a wall mounted PC if I can swing it. Unfortunately, I have a wall mounted display case for my HO train sets immediately next to my computer desk. If I go further away, I can remove a Leatherman display case on top of a cabinet and a Victorinox wall mounted Classics display. That means I can wall-mount the new PC about 6 feet away from the keyboard and monitor (as the crow flies...so maybe 8 feet away if I add in corners, etc.). Not sure if I can get away with the distance...but that would be kinda cool if I can do that. Positioning the PC that distance will mean a decrease in noise. If I can do that, I might even get all flashy with lighting and such. My build with the Mozart TX is a bit hilarious. I populated that case with all blue glowing fans. When I turned that unit on, the air exchange going through that computer caused a draft in the room. It made a whooshing sound that sort of drove me up the wall after a time. I learned that a very noisy PC isn't always a good thing.  :facepalm:  :rofl:

The more I think about it, a wall mounted PC is more apealing. I haven't done that before. I kinda like the extra space it will free up. Just got to take a closer look at the details. I know I can get the case for around 100 bucks for the Thermaltake P3. I know if I buy the case, I am on my journey to another build. Got the graphics card coming in this week sometime.




A little Leatherman information.

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ca Offline Chako

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #7 on: January 28, 2020, 07:01:44 AM
So far, this is what I am sort of thinking thus far...

1. AMD Ryzen 2700X CPU (Good price to power ratio)
2. Asus STRIX B450-F Gaming motherboard. (I do not plan on using with dual video cards...and the B450 chipset looks to be at another sweet spot in regards to features, price, and performance)
3. Thermaltake P3 case. Wall mount seems different enough to go for it. Just wondering if the wall mounted space is too far for a corded keyboard. Are there cord extensions, and if so, how long can you go before signal degrades too much?)
4. Deepcool Castle 360 V2 3 fan water cooler. (appears to be real nice with RGB goodness...but more importantly, a neat never leak feature that eliminates internal pressure)

That is what I have so far. Any ideas most welcome.
A little Leatherman information.

Leatherman series articles
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ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #8 on: January 28, 2020, 09:30:03 AM
The Ryzen CPU you've got there is a very nice one that I'd probably pick if I was building a high range PC now. :2tu:
8 cores over-clockable to 4.3GHz using the stock cooler, for US$180? Yes please! :drool:

The MSI B450 Gaming Plus motherboard was the B450 mobo I drooled over the most. More specifically, the B450M micro-ATX size version, but the regular version is equal in performance. Reason I liked it was that people said it had great power delivery and quality for the price.  :think: But probably most decent motherboards would work. :shrug:
Do you prefer built-in WiFi and Bluetooth, or adding your own?

You can definitely buy USB extensions.
But Google says that the maximum total USB length for a low-speed device is 3m/9ft.   :think:
I think you could buy a USB repeater to extend the signal.
Wireless is always an option.  :D

I'd be too scared to use water cooling.  :D Big slow fans and big heatsinks would be my approach.
Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

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ca Offline Chako

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #9 on: January 28, 2020, 12:09:44 PM
I have a fairly good dual WiFi setup right now. Got one from my internet provider, and bought one for push power so that I can get a signal at my neighbours house. Built in WiFi is not needed.

I agree with you on water...that is until I noticed doing research on my current system...I have been using water cooling since 2013 and didn't even know it.  :ahhh
A little Leatherman information.

Leatherman series articles
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ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #10 on: January 28, 2020, 12:13:45 PM
Quote from: Chako on January 28, 2020, 12:09:44 PM
I agree with you on water...that is until I noticed doing research on my current system...I have been using water cooling since 2013 and didn't even know it.  :ahhh
Whoa! :o
Must be pretty maintenance-free then.
Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

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fi Offline AlephZero

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #11 on: January 28, 2020, 10:01:51 PM
I would stay away from the Asus MB, the cheaper Asus models do not work well with the higher-end Ryzen processors
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fi Offline AlephZero

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #12 on: January 28, 2020, 10:02:23 PM
I believe they have problems with the voltage regulation...
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fi Offline AlephZero

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #13 on: January 28, 2020, 10:03:00 PM
Why I bought myself the Asrock MB
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ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #14 on: January 28, 2020, 10:12:37 PM
Quote from: AlephZero on January 28, 2020, 10:02:23 PM
I believe they have problems with the voltage regulation...
This chart agrees. The Asus Strix B450-F is lower end power-wise.

Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

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ca Offline Chako

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #15 on: January 29, 2020, 01:38:39 AM
That is great info. I am still looking up the various b450 motherboards out there.

On the plus side...bought the Thermaltake P3 in red off of Amazon, and the Nvidia 1660 Super just arrived today.

Next purchase will be the CPU and motherboard. Getting very deep into reading about various b450 producers. I don't have any preferences other than if the price overlaps a higher chipset...I will get the higher chipset. With that said, I think the b450s is a sweet spot in regards of price to features.

Going to read a lot more...as the motherboard is the heart of the system. I am not wedded to Asus yet.

One thing I must say...I was not aware about these m.2 SSD drives. Trying to learn more about these drives. Going deep as in SATA vs PCIe. Some boards have two spaces but may affect a 16x PCIe bus to half the speed to 8x if one or the other spot is populated. Or why some are 80mm long and others are 210mm. Yeah I have a lot of knowledge I need to learn in regards to this SSD formfactor.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 01:46:05 AM by Chako »
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ca Offline Chako

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #16 on: January 29, 2020, 03:01:28 AM
I am currently wondering if an MSI Tomahawk MAX might be the better b450 motherboard.
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ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #17 on: January 29, 2020, 08:20:33 AM
It's a good one power-wise. Is the price right?
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ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #18 on: January 29, 2020, 08:25:26 AM
Quote from: Chako on January 29, 2020, 01:38:39 AM
One thing I must say...I was not aware about these m.2 SSD drives. Trying to learn more about these drives. Going deep as in SATA vs PCIe. Some boards have two spaces but may affect a 16x PCIe bus to half the speed to 8x if one or the other spot is populated. Or why some are 80mm long and others are 210mm. Yeah I have a lot of knowledge I need to learn in regards to this SSD formfactor.


M.2 is the form factor of the slot. You can buy a slow M.2 SSD.
The scary fast SSDs are M.2 NVMe.
And by scary fast I mean it. Good NVMe SSDs can write at 2 GB per second!

Looking at the Tomahawk specs, it says some SATA ports are disabled when you use the m.2 slot. I'd be happy with that trade. :D
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 08:31:14 AM by Don Pablo »
Hooked, like everyone else. ;)

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ca Offline Chako

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #19 on: January 29, 2020, 12:04:47 PM
From what I understand, that is the usual for the b450 chipset.
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fi Offline AlephZero

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #20 on: January 29, 2020, 08:18:25 PM
As for the NVMe SSD's, there are fast ones... and then there are cheap ones

Cheap ones may look fast, but they tend to have crazy latency issues.

Safe bets would be either Samsung PM981/970EVO Plus (PM981 is cheaper bulk version, I have one) or WD Black SN750.
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fi Offline AlephZero

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #21 on: January 29, 2020, 08:25:14 PM
I can recommend Asrock B450 Pro4 motherboard, it's on the cheaper side, but works on my system.
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ca Offline Chako

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #22 on: January 30, 2020, 05:12:54 AM
Thanks for the suggestions. After much deliberations, I have sorted on and purchased an MSI Tomahawk Max motherboard. It is back ordered...but supposed to get back in stock early February. I was originally attracted to the Asus board because it had RGB all over the board and thought it would look pretty in the Thermaltake P3 case. With the info I read posted in here...happy I wasn't lulled into pretty over substance. 

I have noticed that there is a Ryzen 5 3600X which appears to beat the Ryzen 7 2700X in games and gives up a bit in cores, etc. I think I may head in the 5 3600X direction. It appears that both are about the same price.  :think:

Don Pablo, it seems that there are a lot of b450 motherboards for around the same price...between 130 and 160 Canadian. The Tomahawk Max is 150 dollars. Ready for Gen 3 CPUs...which sort of scared me with the other boards...as I have read you need an older AMD CPU or some such thing to flash the bios...something I do not have. The thing about research...you are never sure if what you are reading is current...seeing that many places never post a date with their reviews.

Update. just checked Amazon. Looks like the Thermaltake P3 will be arriving around next Tuesday.  :woohoo:
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 05:36:42 AM by Chako »
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fr Offline Whoey

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #23 on: January 30, 2020, 09:18:43 AM
I've taken to watching a lot of Linus Tech Tips videos, because I find it both informative and entertaining at times.

There is one episode where they build an old system of cutting edge parts from 10 years ago or something and are surprised that  it works and isn't actually that bad... and I'm pretty sure it was a far superior build to my current home desktop which has an i7-2600 with a GTX 960 in it. (which is no slouch to be honest) and there's still some space for it to be improved.

My new laptop is an i7-9750h with a GTX 1650 which is far superior in many ways, and as a laptop only just portable... but I wanted something with grunt, not portability for while I'm working in Paris.

We had 50 intel i5 laptops on order at work, but due to the intel cpu shortages we ended up changing the order to a similar spec AMD system with a month lead time vs 3-4 month on intel  :ahhh

I said it before, your PSU might be ok, but look into the high efficiency models (80+ bronze/silver/gold/platinum/titanium etc), clean, consistent power levels help!
The difficult we do immediately, the impossible takes a little longer.
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ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #24 on: January 30, 2020, 09:26:10 AM
I think you'll be happy with the tomahawk.  :tu:

The Ryzen 5 3600X is the current (3rd) generation, and the Ryzen 7 2700X is last (2nd) generation.

As I understand it... :D
Ryzen 5 = i5 equivalent
Ryzen 7 = i7 equivalent

If they're both the same price, I'd get the one that's better for my use case. :cheers:
(Assuming the motherboard is updated and ready, hehehehe)

Gold power supplies are very healthy for your computer. Bronze is low range and silver is mid range. And if you get a more powerful one than you need and run it at 50-80%, it will be more efficient.


Food for thought, if you want a 3rd gen Ryzen, maybe look at the B550 motherboards if they're out yet.  :think:


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fr Offline Whoey

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #25 on: January 30, 2020, 09:38:52 AM
oh speaking of i5/i7 equivalents, when I was shopping for my laptop the new i5-9300 (which was the other option) is actually similar to the older i7s since it's quad core at similar speeds where my new i7 is actually 6 core.  :dunno:
The difficult we do immediately, the impossible takes a little longer.
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ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #26 on: January 30, 2020, 09:41:17 AM
Huzzah for AMD giving intel a kick in the cores. :D
Everyone wins.
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ca Offline Chako

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #27 on: January 30, 2020, 12:27:09 PM
Just went upstairs to look for some info on the power supplies built into my older systems and came across one of the boxes.

It is a Cooler Master Real Power Pro 1000W with the following specs:

Type: ATX form factor 12V V2.3 / SSI standard EPS 12V V2.91
PFC: Active PFC (0.99)
Input Voltage: 90 - 264V (auto range)
Input Current: 15A @ 115V / 8A @ 230V
Input Frequency Range: 47 - 63 Hz
Fan: Ultra silent 135mm fan with intelligent speed control
Power Good Signal: 100 - 500 ms
Hold Up Time: >17 ms
Efficiency (load): 83% (200W) / 85% (500W) / 81% (1000W)
MTBF: >100 000 Hrs
Output Capacity: 1000W continuous
Max Output Capacity: 1200W
Full Protection: OVP / OCP / OTP / SCP / UVP
Dimension: 150 x 180 x 86 mm
Operation Temperature: 0 - 50 C (normal input voltage)

It states on the box:
Worlds first six + 12V rails for better power distribution in SLI and 2 way server system
Four 6 pin PCI-e / two 8 pin PCI-e connectors offer future upgradability
Eco-design for energy and money saving by Active PFC. (>0.99) / high efficiency (>85%)

The power supply dates to 2007 as per the copyright info on the box.

I think that should do it? What do you guys think?  :think:

UPDATE:

I just found my other power supply, it is a Seasonic S12+.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 12:46:40 PM by Chako »
A little Leatherman information.

Leatherman series articles
Merit Badges Start a new thread including a photo of shooting at least two (2) different airguns and at least one (1) photo of target (airguns) Start a thread with photos of at least twelve different colored ALOX models in your collection Must start a thread with a photo of at least five (5) of your watches Must start a thread showing a photo of at least eight BO tools Start a new thread showing photos of at least 3 different sporks in use Start a new thread and post a photo of a flashlight as part of your EDC Start a new thread and post a picture of fire making kit or fire with a multitool Must put something in order and provide link to the post. Start a new thread with a photo of custom or non standard SAK scales in your collection Must start new thread with photos of multitools (Magazine/Catalogue type photos) Start a new thread including a photo of shooting at least two (2) different firearms and at least one (1) photo of target (firearms) Start a thread with a photo of at least ten OPT's in your collection Start a thread with photos of at least 1 MTO branded tool in your collection Start a thread with photos of at least 5 different MP600 models in your collection Start a thread with photos of at least 12 different Juice models in your collection Start a new thread with photos of a Japanese made PST in your collection Start a new thread with a photo of at least 5 different Charge models in your collection

ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #28 on: January 30, 2020, 01:03:37 PM
These guys seem to expect a 10 year lifespan from power supplies:
https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/power-supply-lifespan.1990238/
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ie Offline Don Pablo

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Re: Thinking of getting into building a new PC system.
Reply #29 on: January 30, 2020, 01:11:45 PM
Long story short, I would be hesitant about trusting my new hardware to a 13 y/o PSU, even if it's more than powerful enough.

Especially if I might end up using the new hardware for another decade.....
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Merit Badges Start a new thread and post a photo of the pen for thirty (30) consecutive days. Participate in a Challenge thread and post a photo of  a Bladeless Multitool for 30 days Only for the 14th year Anniversary Challenge. Post a photo of any gear for thirty (30) consecutive days during the MTo anniversary month. Start a new thread and post a photo of any gear for thirty (30) consecutive days during the MTo anniversary month. Start a new thread and post a photo of the modified sak (scale swap not included) for thirty (30) consecutive days.

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