Discontinued model discussion

[Danielh]

What are your guy's thoughts about Victorinox discontinuing models? I personally have a lot to say about it. It seems to me anyway that Victorinox has stopped production on a lot of models during  the 2000s. Knives like the mechanic and the craftsman, which both seem to be rather popular, have been discontinued recently. It almost feels like once they no longer had to compete with Wenger, Victorinox cut back a lot of there selection. There have been probably half a dozen times where I have seen a cool knife, only to see that it is discontinued and can only be bought secondhand for a much higher price. Just scrolling through Sakwiki can show just how many models are no longer available. Sure, some of those were expirements gone wrong or limited editions, but a lot of them like the automobile and the yeoman were popular knives that had been around for years. They're offering the bare minimum amount of configurations that they can to keep themselves profitable. Rather than expand their selection, they instead focus on making limited edition scales and expensive collector models. Their most popular tools, the saw and the scissors, are both available in three layer models. However if you want the metal file or the pliers, you have to get a knife with 4 or more layers. Not to mention the fact that when the 84mm scissors machine broke, they decided not to replace it and just stop making 84mm models with scissors. On the rare occasion that they do release a new model, it's something like the farmer x, which has been requested for years and is almost guaranteed to make a profit. This is all speculation, but I ultimately believe that Victorinox is using their good reputation and consistent profits as a reason to stop making  new models and to discontinue others.
 

[Rich S]

Danielh

You are probably right, but that's just called business.

Rich

[EMZ]

I think you're right. IMHO the Craftsman, Master Craftsman, Atlas and Tradesman are marvelous survival tools, but all discontinued. (I just like the models with the pliers/mega tweezers. Nobody ever use them, but when ever you need them, you'll be so glad to have them!)

There's a lack of competition. Swiza is nice, but is a very small brand. It's not going to threaten Vic's market domination.
Victorinox is somehow not competing with Leatherman and vice versa. Victorinox' SwissToolSpirit is in fact a plus 15 year old model, with very occasionally a different tool set up. I wouldn't be surprised if Vic and LM have agreed on some things.
In fact, the latest innovations by Vic are the Cheese Knife with fork (wow, what an innovation...) and the two outdoor knives. However, these to outdoor models aren't even made by Vic, but by Muela (Spain).
Hopefully one day they come up with a diamond file. I doubt strongly if the Victorinox people are reading these comments on MTO.

[ElevenBlade]

We're a rare breed, us SAK Knights. 

Worldwide, Swiss Army Knives were the most popular for many years. After 9/11/01 Victorinox lost a large portion of their sales all at once - all of their duty-free shops in airports were closed.  They suddenly began making outerwear - and that venture evidently went belly up.  In the meantime, Leatherman etc. became competition, and I would think they lost a massive market share to those companies, even though they had the SwissTool.  Then theres the tactical folder market that won't even consider getting a SAK again. 

As the generations carry on, the SAK won't be a rite of passage for a youngster as it used to be. 

The appeal of a SAK for the uninitiated, with the intent to use in the day-to-day work of a "Craftsman" or a "Mechanic", probably isn't there anymore.  I would bet dollars to doughnuts that without trying anything out, they'll go for a plier based MT, and one that looks rugged like a Gerber or a LM Surge, rather than sleek like a SwissTool.

I would think they are trying to find their way in the light-duty EDC, office worker, traveler, outdoorsman market, and occasionally paying attention to the big-SAK gift-giving market. 

That said - I would really like to sit the Victorinox marketing team down and pick their brains over a couple of beers. 
I'd really like to know a few things...
- Why are the liner locks suited for left-handed people?
- Why dont they bring back the 84mm scissors?  They're guaranteed to be popular.

I'm one to give the benefit of doubt, and I don't think that Victorinox is riding on it's own coat-tails.  How could that possibly turn their habit of discontinuing models, and being slow to release others into a positive?

If the thought is they're trying to increase their own value by making certain things rare - I don't buy that either.  They know very well that there  are enough modders that will make their own... not to mention that they don't reap profits from rare finds (collectors do)

If their product was a limited-edition ice cream flavor or a sandwich at a fast-food joint, I would understand that too.  Build a following for something, and then take it away.  Bring it back a year later and you'll have a line out the door.  That doesn't work for something that's so durable that you can give it to your grandkid to use.

Unless you're off your rocker like I am.  You'll buy one or two SAKs in a lifetime.  I suspect, what they're doing is focusing on those people who will get a SAK based on reputation, and then keep it in the luggage they bought at the same Victorinox store. 

If only there was some way to get a Victorinox representative to do an AMA....   

[Max Stone]

I have to agree that profits drive behavior. Victorinox is a great example of conservatism. They’ve even backed off OHO.

Although I do agree that it’s no coincidence that the pliers were added shortly after Leatherman burst onto the scene in the mid-80s. Victorinox would have seen some sales impact at the time.

Of course, Victorinox is now quite diversified, so they really don’t need to worry about changing their SAK line up. Just a few limited editions to push some fresh stock into the stores on a regular basis.

But they could easily reintroduce a few of the discontinued models with very little effort. And they could introduce a new scale color unique for these retros, just to show that they can move with the times. 

[SirVicaLot]

Just because the small group of SAK Knights here at MTo likes certain tools, doesn’t automatically mean that they would be successful in the general market. We just don’t have any insight into their sales numbers to know. They certainly don’t stop making models that sell like crazy.

The reason they back off from OHO is in my opinion the result of increased restrictive knife laws worldwide. Especially the combination of OHO with locking blades is an issue.

[SirVicaLot]

- Why dont they bring back the 84mm scissors?  They're guaranteed to be popular.


If only there was some way to get a Victorinox representative to do an AMA....   

They would be popular here, but maybe not with the “normal” people 

An AMA with a Vic rep would be awesome!

[kamakiri]

I generally think you’re correct.

But I think the decision to discontinue 84mm scissors happened back near 1970 when it wasn’t updated like the 91mm versions were. I believe other sizes like 58mm and 74mm were updated somewhat later.

[ElevenBlade]

Just because the small group of SAK Knights here at MTo likes certain tools, doesn’t automatically mean that they would be successful in the general market. We just don’t have any insight into their sales numbers to know. They certainly don’t stop making models that sell like crazy.

The reason they back off from OHO is in my opinion the result of increased restrictive knife laws worldwide. Especially the combination of OHO with locking blades is an issue.

That's a very good point.  There was a long documentary on the Vic factory in Switzerland, and at some point, they asked the employees what they carried in their pockets.  I don't remember the specifics, but I do recall that they were models that we don't generally talk about. One of them had a Traveler.

[Sos24]

I’ve frequently wondered why certain models were discontinued or why certain toolsets have never existed.  I think it may be partially riding on their reputation and popularity, but I think it is mainly linked to business and lack of competition pushing them.

Swiza, Ruike, and Boker are now making similar knives, but they aren’t pushing innovation.  Until those companies become more popular and expand their toolsets beyond SAKs offering, then Victorinox doesn’t really have much incentive to expand  or innovate their tool and model offerings.

Those of us who truly love and appreciate SAKs will continue to buy them.  We will also attempt to spread the appreciation through gifts and our use.

[KeepCalmCarryOn]

.

[ElevenBlade]

One more thing I don't understand is why non-serrated OHO blades are only installed on the Hunter models.  If they kept up with the OHO Trekker NS, they'd sell like hotcakes. 

[aerojet]

MY vote for this would be half serrated. I have a couple of Wenger which are and I find them very useful. One does not need to use the entire blade for all purposes, but there are times when that little extra that the serrated part gives to the cutting job is well worth it.

YMMV

AJ

[ElevenBlade]

MY vote for this would be half serrated. I have a couple of Wenger which are and I find them very useful. One does not need to use the entire blade for all purposes, but there are times when that little extra that the serrated part gives to the cutting job is well worth it.

YMMV

AJ

I tend to agree.... In my younger days, I was a fan of half-serrated blades.  Most of my folders... maybe all of them.. were half serrated.  I haven't used one of those in nearly 20 years to be honest.  But the serrated blade of my Wave has come in handy from time to time.

I like that on the Victorinox the plain edge is closer to the handle where you'd use it to make feather sticks (for example), and that the serration is at the outer end where you'd use it to cut through rope. 

What I don't like so much is that it's chisel ground

[Thunderpants]

Sadly they have settled into a comfortable groove of doing a different colour Classic/Cadet/Pioneer each year and calling it job done.
Oh, and a ridiculously expensive thing with a Damascus blade.
Ibach must be neck-deep in tumbleweed these days! I for one have completely lost interest in SAKs and only lock-down madness occasionally rouses me to check to see if there's anything new in SAKworld.

[ElevenBlade]

Sadly they have settled into a comfortable groove of doing a different colour Classic/Cadet/Pioneer each year and calling it job done.
Oh, and a ridiculously expensive thing with a Damascus blade.
Ibach must be neck-deep in tumbleweed these days! I for one have completely lost interest in SAKs and only lock-down madness occasionally rouses me to check to see if there's anything new in SAKworld.

Lockdown madness has made me spend the last half hour puzzling over the discontinued model chart, trying to find some pattern.   

[Max Stone]

In 91mm, they killed off many of the back Phillips and all except one of the Combo SAKs. 

[Thunderpants]

I was cheesed off that the Mechanic (Tinker + Pliers?) was discontinued. They were always there on Big Jeff Bezos's site, selling for ca. 30 euros which seemed a bit steep - you could get a Deluxe Tinker for less or a Craftsman for not much more.
Fast forward to now and I'm thinking maybe the Mechanic is the SAK of my dreams - only now it has become such a pricy rarity, I'll never know!

[Max Stone]

Was the only 3 layer 91mm made with Pliers. That and the unnamed CS variant (1.3623). One shown is a recreation.

[Thunderpants]

Damn! So rare they never named it!
I may get an Angler (which is your Mechanic plus the fishy thing) and that will, I think, be my last Victorinox purchase for a long time. Those little pliers are very handy but the only ones I have are on a Craftsman, which is just a little bit too chunky for feeble ol' me.

[ElevenBlade]

In 91mm, they killed off many of the back Phillips and all except one of the Combo SAKs. 

Interesting observation.  At first glance I'd say they killed off more with the corkscrew, but yes - we're ultimately left with just a few models that can trace their roots to the Tinker.  I'm actually quite surprised by that. 

Another thing they seem to have done is removed the magnifier from a lot of the lineup. 

Yet another thing is that they seem to have gone big, or gone home... as they say.  There are quite a few Champs and Cybertools.
If you focus on the pocketable 3-4 layer models that you'd think are good for EDC you actually have very few decisions to make ... you just need to decide if you want scissors, saw, file, OR scaler OR sometimes pliers.

Most 5 layers are gone, and Combo tools are rare. 

I could imagine that Victorinox wants to promote their famous opener layer though. 

[cody6268]

How come the Fireman (non one-hand) was instead updated to use the Rescue Tool serrated blade instead of getting discontinued?  As a farm work knife, I do not need the laminated glass saw or window punch for what I do (though my truck is getting a Rescue Tool, and I am buying a Polizia del Stato RT for my collection), but the blade I actually use is the serrated one. The Rescue Tool design is far superior to that of the modified 108mm gutting blade the Fireman has used since it was introduced as a slide-lock model in the 1990s. The Rescue Tool serrated blade doesn't need a nail nick to open it, either.   I need the openers layer, and the Hunter XT is lacking these tools. 

[Sos24]

Another thing they seem to have done is removed the magnifier from a lot of the lineup. 

This is very true.  There are 8 discontinued SAKs with the magnifier/phillips layer.  The Explorer is the smallest current SAK with the magnifier/phillips layer.  There are four discontinued models that had the magnifier/phillips layer with fewer layers than the Explorer.  There are also four discontinued models that were between the Explorer and SwissChamp size with the magnifier/phillips layer where now there are none.

[ElevenBlade]

This is very true.  There are 8 discontinued SAKs with the magnifier/phillips layer.  The Explorer is the smallest current SAK with the magnifier/phillips layer.  There are four discontinued models that had the magnifier/phillips layer with fewer layers than the Explorer.  There are also four discontinued models that were between the Explorer and SwissChamp size with the magnifier/phillips layer where now there are none.

None?!  You're right. 
It's something I think about because I already find difficulty reading small print in certain situations. 
I'd think to start looking now, but I don't know if I will still want scissors since it's partially an occupation thing - I'll need to find a Scientist or Yeoman, depending. 

[Sos24]

None?!  You're right. 
It's something I think about because I already find difficulty reading small print in certain situations. 
I'd think to start looking now, but I don't know if I will still want scissors since it's partially an occupation thing - I'll need to find a Scientist or Yeoman, depending.

I love the Yeoman.  The magnifier comes in handy frequently for reading small print on labels and such.

[nmpops]

While I agree that Victorinox may have lost some ground to Leatherman don't think that means they are in trouble. They discontinue models because they just aren't selling enough to make it worth while to keep producing them. Just like any manufacturer will do.  Look at GM, they discontinued whole companies because they weren't profitable.

Plus,the Leatherman, regardless of models just are not knives. they are a tool that is a jack of all trades and a master at nothing.  I have an original Leatherman that is practically new. The leather sheath is beat up from riding in my glove box for 20 years but I have never really found any use for it.

The SAK is primarily a knife with some added tools.  I currently own 33 SAKs  with #34 on the way. I bought an Alox Classic because the price was right ($14.95 shipped).  I mostly carry one of my Pioneers or my Tourist and I keep a Hiker in the car console and a Huntsman in a basket next to my recliner so one is always close.

[nate j]

Particularly after watching Wenger go belly up, Victorinox is committed to their own survival, and I can't blame them.  Part of what this means is that they will discontinue some models that aren't profitable and or don't sell high enough volumes.  I also suspect that the management of Victorinox perceives much more risk to the company from sinking money into ventures that may or may not be profitable than they do from not being innovative enough, and they are probably right about this as well.

- Why are the liner locks suited for left-handed people?
- Why dont they bring back the 84mm scissors?  They're guaranteed to be popular.

With regard to the 111mm liner lock, I suspect it has to do with the geometry of how the parts of the SAKs fit together (and wanting the locking liner to be a middle layer in every SAK with at least two layers to avoid introducing an extra liner layer), rather than  a LH vs. RH thing.  On that topic, I understand why folks refer to liner locks as either right-handed or left-handed, but personally I always roll a liner-locking knife edge up in my hand and use my thumb to disengage the lock, so (in spite of being a righty) I can easily handle either right-handed or left-handed knives.

On the point of the 84mm scissors, I'm not sure I have a good theory as to why they were initially discontinued, but I assume with Victorinox now producing the 85mm line with scissors, we won't see a return of the 84mm scissors any time soon.

[ElevenBlade]

Particularly after watching Wenger go belly up, Victorinox is committed to their own survival, and I can't blame them.  Part of what this means is that they will discontinue some models that aren't profitable and or don't sell high enough volumes.  I also suspect that the management of Victorinox perceives much more risk to the company from sinking money into ventures that may or may not be profitable than they do from not being innovative enough, and they are probably right about this as well.


With regard to the 111mm liner lock, I suspect it has to do with the geometry of how the parts of the SAKs fit together (and wanting the locking liner to be a middle layer in every SAK with at least two layers to avoid introducing an extra liner layer), rather than  a LH vs. RH thing.  On that topic, I understand why folks refer to liner locks as either right-handed or left-handed, but personally I always roll a liner-locking knife edge up in my hand and use my thumb to disengage the lock, so (in spite of being a righty) I can easily handle either right-handed or left-handed knives.

On the point of the 84mm scissors, I'm not sure I have a good theory as to why they were initially discontinued, but I assume with Victorinox now producing the 85mm line with scissors, we won't see a return of the 84mm scissors any time soon.

Both good theories, indeed, the best I've heard.

Regarding the liner lock:  the opener layer must sit on the .... shall we say... Shield side of the tool (for the can opener to work).  One liner lock must be able to accommodate both the blade and the screwdriver.  Therefore, the locking liner has to be between the two.

Ergo, de facto, the liner lock must be situated as the second layer, and the locking blade must be situated in the third layer.

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. 

[nate j]

Both good theories, indeed, the best I've heard.

Regarding the liner lock:  the opener layer must sit on the .... shall we say... Shield side of the tool (for the can opener to work).  One liner lock must be able to accommodate both the blade and the screwdriver.  Therefore, the locking liner has to be between the two.

Ergo, de facto, the liner lock must be situated as the second layer, and the locking blade must be situated in the third layer.

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

Aw, shucks...

That, or I just have too much time on my hands to study SAKs...