Traditional knife fit and finish.

[Aloha]

I am not as knowledgeable as others however I know what I like in a traditional knife.  What some on the interwebs gripe about in terms of fit and finish I may not agree with.  What I grip about others may not agree with.  Its observations for me as I look over the knives I have acquired.  I have some newer knives and I have a few old knives. 

What seems to be the standard  .  The marker for others maybe  .  What am I trying to say here  .  What I read on the interwebs regarding fit and finish seems to point squarely to GEC as the one to compare to.  Am I right? 

Seems over time the "qualities" of what some deem hype worthy are happy accidents or unintended characteristics.  I may be totally off on my assessment.   

Let me post my pics then I'll go into a few observations. 

[Aloha]

For a moment lets take cost out of the equation.  That seems to be the sticking point for a lot of "reviewers".  The knives pictured are all second hand, heck maybe more than that. 

Cost plays a part for many if not all who buy new.  I get that.  Hype plays a huge part IMO as well.  I don't get hyped for some reason.  I get excited but its alwasy to my best ability in check.  I tend to let products of all kinds earn what they earn on their own merit. 

In the knives pictured each very well may have been worn to its current condition.  I did take that into consideration.  This is not meant to be a diss to any brand.  I have complied a few trads and have began the process of noticing certain things.  I'm sure more experienced trad owners have gone thru this. 

 

[comis]

I don't know too much about other brands, but of all the GECs I owned, I think all have perfect centering, no rub(maybe 1-2, but very minor), decent walk and talk(a few have harder pull, but I get over it overtime) and pinned shield.  I think for the price, it really has great F&F.

[Aloha]

In the knives pictured I'm sure there will be clear opinions on fit and finish.  I want you for a moment to take a look at the first set of knives ( top picture ). 

Do you see the corner of the tang ( ricasso ) that is at a right angle?  The first knife sticks up quite proud.  That area is less prousd and less sharp on some pictured.  This is not specific to trads. 

So my first question is, is the a fit and finish thing?  With regards to other folders where you'd use the pocket clip maybe not so? That corner may not bother other items in your pocket or your pockets material.  In terms of a trad where you'd drop it in your pocket that corner certainly could.       

[Aloha]

Bit of up close of the corner. 

[Aloha]

comis 

[Aloha]

I've been carrying my Robeson a lot.  Its certainly not my most expensive knife nor my youngest.  Its quite possibly my oldest.   Now to be fair the corners on the knife are noticeable.  Less so as compared but in all fairness noticeable.  They very well could be worn smooth given its age.  All fair and valid considerations.  Maybe thats what happens when a knife is carried for decades? 

Maybe the weakening of the back springs sat the tang ( ricasso ) lower?  All things I considered.  Maybe its my personal love of this knife that I have "rose tinted" glasses on for? 

The angle of the spine down towards the tang into the frame was meant.  I read about other makers who did this purposely.  Robeson in particular marketed them Pocket Eze.  I do not believe my Robeson is a Pocket Eze.   

[Aloha]

I've been reading a lot.  I've been observing a lot.  Maybe thinking more than necessary as usual about knives. 

The close up of the knife pictured is the one that got my thinking as compared to my Robeson.  Then of course I got out my SAKs.  Yup.  Its why we probably all love Victorinox so much.  Even my Old Cross Farmers tang ( ricasso ) sits low in the frame.  My Wengers too. 

Is it a thing?  I am not trying to sound like a whiny knife nut.  Goodness if you've read anything I post you all know I am the least ( hopefully ) critical knife nut.  Centering, uneven grinds, less than pointy, cosmetic, and a variety of other so called offenses get passes from me. 

This is observational at best, this entire post that is. 

Look at Vic tho.  I'd imagine it things like this that for the most part go unnoticed.  Maybe its just me.   

[Aloha]

I guess one could say, "carry your trad in a sheath and be done with it".  I do, for the most part.

Look at the corners on these.   

[Aloha]

How about these two?

[Aloha]

These two maybe harder to differentiate.  The top knife is another favorite tho the corner while not terribly proud can be felt while the bottom one ( attempt at a leather cover  ) may look identical is very slightly felt. 

You may even think the top knife appears rounded at the corner and is somewhat but its still felt more so than my leather covered Hammer Brand.  It also seems the Hammer Brand attempted to angle the spine to sit lower at the tang into the frame? 

[SteveC]

What you seeing is the difference between Sunken and common joint knives. This is accomplished by moving the pivot lower in the tang or in the case of the Canoe and Copperhead pattern covering the tang with the bolster design.So not really a F&F issue but design. Most GEC's don't have a sunken joint. There are also partially sunken joint knives as well.


https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/sunken-joints.1106303/

[Aloha]

 
I really appreciate the design. 

[Aloha]

What got me noticing more was trying to put a non into a leather sheath and the resistance. 

[nate j]

So not really a F&F issue but design.

 

[comis]

What you seeing is the difference between Sunken and common joint knives. This is accomplished by moving the pivot lower in the tang or in the case of the Canoe and Copperhead pattern covering the tang with the bolster design.So not really a F&F issue but design. Most GEC's don't have a sunken joint. There are also partially sunken joint knives as well.


https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/sunken-joints.1106303/

Aloha, like you, I come from a SAK enthusiast standpoint and it too is curious why some tang corners stand so proud of the chassis, but since I usually do carry them in a slip to protect the scales(I do have a preference in stag/bone scales for traditionals), so it is less noticeable than if I pocket carry the knife like a SAK.

[Borg]

I'm happy either way the joint is normally but when i first got this Marttiini that gap bugged me, Helle has the gap too but they hid it in the guard, i prefer it hidden to be honest but it doesnt really bother me now 

[Aloha]

  I'm still learning a lot.  I think with Robeson, they listened to feedback? Or they had a brainstorm session? With the Pocket Eze I thought they were "fixing" a known issue.  What I am learning is each pattern dictates to an extent of the sunk or non sunk joint.  Being my Robeson is a Stockman I assumed it was fit and finish more than a pattern that dictated the sunk-ness of the joint. 

There is so much wonderfulness to these knives.  I do appreciate both Wenger and Victorinox for sinking theirs. 

Do I dislike un sunk joints?  Not so fast.  As I said this was a novice observation.  Thank you Steve and all for the discussion. 

[Aloha]

Next up are main blade choices. 

I'll confess, the title may not apply to this feature as well, so lets for the sake of conversation discuss anyway shall we?

I like a clip blade as much as the next person.  I am becoming very fond of a swedged clip even more so.  I'm guessing its a bit more work to do it  or some makers don't feel the need? 

While the top 3 knives are great especially the Barlow with long pull the last four are even sexier.  The last being my particular favorite for few reasons. 

Camillus ( yellow covers ) for the era knife used some serious back springs.  The blade stock is also pretty hefty as compared to other trappers I have ( closest in size ).  The grind is flat on one side and saber on the other.  Well I figure it began that way till someone went grinder happy convexed the edge.  What a terrific looking blade.  I also appreciate where they added the nail nick.  They also put the nail nick for the spey on the opposite side vs my other trappers. 

The knife just above the Camillus with yellow covers is a Craftsman branded knife likely made by Camillus? The main blade is a beauty.  Love the long pull and wedge on one side plus the flat on one side and saber on the other. 

Pictured separate is my all time favorite, GEC.  The blade on this is super.  I can't find one thing I don't like.  Its my favorite to carry and its fast become my favorite carry.     

[Aloha]

Man I wish it weren't so but here I am.  Over time I read and watch people complain about Case grinds.  I've heard the terms, ragged, uneven, and over ground tip to the extent of being rounded over.  My first new Case was a Large Trapper and sadly this was true in every way on the first one I got.  I returned it and got a wonderful example as a replacement. 

Did I get a DUD?  If so why was the second one so great?  I mean great too.  The grinds were even and the blade was ready to go out the box sharp wise.   

I decided to treat myself to a Case Tribal Lock.  I got sentimental about Tony Bose and also curious after seeing a few videos on the knife.  I purposely want to see if the issues others reported were going to be present on my knife. 

I am bummed to report some were true. 

The edge was left very burred. 
The grit upon opening is very noticeable. 
The shield has scratches. 
The Case stamp in the shield is supposed to be black inside? Mine looks badly done. 
Blade centering is off but not rubbing nor close to rubbing.  I can also move the blade while close to center it.  Not sure if thats a good thing? 
The pull is very light.  Not sure if this is a thing?  I prefer a bit more resistance and the other Case knives I have certainly meet that personal requirement. 
There are gaps between the back spring and liner.  Being a mid lock I'd imagine there needs to be some space? Its my first locking Trad so I don't know.  I can see light when the knife is opened and I hold it looking from the lock end. 

Now those are pretty consistent with what I read and watched. 

This knife was purchased to use.  Am I unhappy?  Kinda.  I wanted to get a sample from Case that was not consistent with the "issues" spoken about.  Good for the money?  I am not going to use that phrase. 

At $73 before tax its not an inexpensive knife for me.  Will I return it?  No. 

There are so many wonderful things about it. 

I am very disappointed in that I wont return it tho.   Each time we as knife buyers keep knives ( yes I am the problem ) we embolden companies to keep pumping out less than quality knives.  Is Case going away after 130 years?  I hope not.  Do I want them to do better?  Of course I do but for no other reason than the things that could be done better should be done better.  I realize this is a mass produced knife.  I would love to know how many were made daily. 

In the next post I will tell you what is awesome about this knife.   

[Aloha]

I've said many times that I am not picky.  Never been that way and the above are observations that rang true from reading and watching reviews. 

That said I am not returning the knife.  Why?  Because in the end those things are not bothersome to me when I consider what I love about the knife.  If I could hand pick the knife then I'd have chosen another to be perfectly honest. 

What I love about this knife. 

The design.  There is not one thing about the design I don't love.  I looks amazing closed and even more so open.  The blade is a fantastic shape. 

The lock up is solid.  There is no complaint at all. 

Every tradition from bone to metal is near to perfect as can be.  The lock bar to the back spring is flawless.  The bolsters were perfectly flawless and so shiny. 

The shield is flush as are the pins.

With the blade opened the backspring to blade transition is great.  I cannot feel the transition at all.       

The bone covers are stunning. 

The grind while ragged is even from bow to stern.  I have a pointy tip as well so no over grind on mine.  The swedge is a very nice blade detail that I enjoy. 

I know there are many who have a big problem with edges that are not good to go out the box.  I am to a degree however I would never leave a factory edge anyway no matter how good it is.  Now maybe I've never got one that was THAT good so  .  While bummed the edge was ragged I took it to my Arkansas Stone then to my strop and it was silly sharp in short order.  They just didn't take the time to refine the edge after the wheel or however they sharpen.  I will do more work to it because thats just what I do.

Is this knife simply "good for the money"?  I feel its better than that actually.  I watched a video where a fella went pretty hard on Case.  I actually agreed but I am also not comparing it to GEC in any way.  Its not really who it should be compared to anyway in my opinion. 

I'll leave all that to those who choose to do that. 

I have a Trapper small that is darn near 10/10 in terms of fit and finish.  I got it used too.  I think its a 2005 and man this knife is a stunner and both blades are darn near perfect center.  All transitions are smooth.  I especially love the rounded tang, the part that sticks up when closed.  Nice touch Case.  The pull on it is more to my liking as is my Psalm 23 Large Trapper.  There is minimal space between the backspring and liner so very little light shows thru. 

My Tribal Lock is not bad at all but noticeable.  The covers are so well fit to the liners which would have bugged me if there was gapping there. 

The things I mention earlier are to my mind easy to remedy.  What do I know?

I will purchase a Copperlock next.  Not sure when but its one I've had my eye one.       

[SteveC]

Good review Aloha !   

[Fuzzbucket]

Sadly the past  three Case knives I've bought new have had terrible fit n finish, and all three have been sent back much to the annoyance of Moonraker Knives (I don't think they like me now... there communication was rubbish anyway bordering on the rude).

The last one was a real dud. Here's a pic I took at the time - I don't know if you're able to see it clearly, but the main blade catches the pen blade so much so that you couldn't close it. The overall f&f was rough as smurf too.

[Aloha]

   Now that I would have also sent back.  When I got my first new knife in a long time ( Case Large Trapper Psalm 23 ) I was also very disappointed.  Scratched bolsters, horrible blade grind, dirty or stained white bone covers, very dirty inside, and on and on.  The second one as I mentioned before was a wonderful example. 

What is frustrating is exactly that.  I have nothing against Case or any maker.  The grumblings from those who have bought them are consistent.  I wish it weren't so.  It wont strop me from buying them if I see one that moves me.  I just know the company I deal with must have an absolute no issue return policy. 

My small Trapper is so nice I just don't understand.  I read some has to possibly be due to the serval ownerships over the decades.  Some has always to do with costs which to me is the worst possible reason to skimp on QC. 

Now that the edge on my Tribal Lock is up to snuff and I've worked the grittiness from the movement the knife is really a pleasure to own so far.  The scratched shield is not a big deal but it shouldn't be so.  The blade not being centered is not a huge deal breaker as long as its not touching or near touching.  I don't let my trad blade snap shut which is why the centering is not a big deal to me. 

At 73 US before taxes to me it not an inexpensive knife.  Its not comparable to GEC either in any way.  What I mean is I wont compare a high volume product to a low volume one.  This is not to say Case gets cut a break.  They most certainly dont as they've been around 130 years.  The more I learn and the more I read the more I am frustrated by them.  They are certainly capable to put out a very nice product however their consistent inconsistencies are  . 

I guess this is where I say, I bought this to be used.  I was reading up on Tony Bose and have one other Tony Bose Case knife that is so wonderful I felt compelled to get this Tribal Lock.  I am happy I did.  I am also happy it wasn't such a dud that it needed to go back.

I know plenty of y'all would have likely sent it back and that would have been warranted.  The gaps at the liner and back springs are very minimal and I've seen this on my GEC and other trads I have.  I would have been unhappy if the gaps were at the covers and liner.  I am not comparing Case to GEC  .  I know much if what I am experiencing is widely spoken about online.  I'm still so new to traditional folders that this is interesting. 

   

[pfrsantos]

I have some traditional hand made portuguese knives. The F&F ranges from "WTF were you thinking, you smurfing smurf?! Drunk again?!" to "damn, that's a work of art!".

 

I'll get some pics here, so you can see what I mean. Seems like some people think that "hand made" equals "lots of imperfections, so you can see it wasn't done by a machine".

 

[pomsbz]

To be honest these days my benchmark for consistent F&F is a SAK. Unfortunately it's a rather high benchmark for a traditional from my experience despite the disparity of cost!

My GEC's have been fine albeit the sunken pins niggled like heck. My Buck was ok but didn't reach the standard of GEC, I had a Canal Street Cutlery that looked great but had awful F&F and well, Queen. I've played the send back till you get a good one game for Queen and got lucky though it still required a full regrind of the blade. That was a good knife. The other Queen I had (not the ones I sent back) had rather rough but just acceptable F&F. My Case Sodbuster was very much cheap F&F but it's a cheap knife.

Although GEC have F&F that is considered a benchmark for the industry, the internet never seems to insert the required accompanying phrase 'for the price'. The machining of modern knives is a lot better. My Lionsteel slipjoint was a whole another level of F&F (huge exposed tang notwithstanding but that's design not F&F) and that's even without seeing what's being done with non slipjoints whose superlative actions are made possible by modern machining. I hopefully have a Artisan Biome on the way which should be an interesting look at how F&F can be done in a very cheap chinese knife. There is room for a whole lot more finesse in F&F using modern machining techniques which will leave these traditional slipjoints F&F in the category of 'quaint' more than anything else. Then again I'm in the camp of 'well made over hand made' every day of the week. I love good machining, it's such a pleasure to work with, knives or otherwise. Boring I know. 



The good one.

[GA1dad]

Good read Aloha!

[NutSAK]

The good one.

   That Queen Copperhead is superb.  I'm glad you stayed the course until you got a good 'un. 

I love a good Queen, but I've certainly had some turds.  I've not had a GEC that wasn't great, but some that I suppose could be considered imperfect. I have many Cases and although there might be some blade wobble here and there, I've not had one that I would consider "rough".  Most are from 1970 up through 2011 or so, so no recent ones.  I hate to hear that there QA might be going downhill.

[Aloha]

To be honest these days my benchmark for consistent F&F is a SAK. Unfortunately it's a rather high benchmark for a traditional from my experience despite the disparity of cost!

 
 
After I said mass produced vs low run or something to that effect.  I was saying I don't compare GEC to Case BUT Victorinox seems to mass produce and get it right darn near every knife, every time.  I don't use the work perfect myself or at least try very very hard not to.  I am not getting out the loop to look over my knives or even a magnifying glass.  If the issues are clear then its a bad thing. 

Victorinox really has their ish together.   .  While I enjoy having my Victorinox with me I am enamored with wood, bone, stag covered traditional pocket knives. 

Getting some old used knives from the flea market puts me in a bit of a different buying category.  I expect to have to "tune" up any knife I get.  I only buy ones that can be easily brought back to daily usability.  Issues then are part of the buying process for me.  The few new knives I've bought and the couple very lightly used ones I picked up have been interesting to compare to what read and experienced by others. 

Its not about bashing.  Its not about complaining.  Its about the consistent inconsistencies in FnF.