Requesting help with dating a vintage SAK - Champion "a"

[SteveP]

I picked this one up today in a local junk shop. I haven't cleaned it yet, but all of the tools except the main blade and long nail file have good snap on open and close.

The toothpick is missing. The scissor spring and last turn of the 5-turn corkscrew are broken off. The corkscrew is also bent out slightly. The nail file wobbles when open.

It came with a leather sheath. No belt loop or clip on the back. I have no idea if it's original or not.

Between the SAKWiki and Huntsman's great spreadsheet on tool evolution ( https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,51872.0.html ), I think it's between 1957 and 1968. But I'd love to be able to pin that down more as I was born in the '60s. If this Champion is from near my birth year, that would be really cool.

If photos of specific things would help with the dating, just let me know and I'll post them.

If anyone has suggestions on where I can get an appropriate scissor spring and toothpick, I'd love to hear them. I'd really like to get this fully functional again.

This is, by far, the oldest SAK I have so am a little out of my depth here. My next oldest is a 1983 Champion "c" that happens to be the first SAK I ever owned. So I was excited to find out what I'd bought today. I didn't realize at the time that it was a Champion "a", just knew that it was old.

Thank you for any info you can provide.

[jnoxyd]

Nice Champion! They started this awl type in 1961 and changed asymmetrical wood saw teeth for symmetrical ones in the mid.1960s. So knife is from 1961- 1965(66) imho.
*if tweezers has nickel silver head (and not swapped) knife can be from 1961-c.1963

[SteveP]

Nice Champion! They started this awl type in 1961 and changed asymmetrical wood saw teeth for symmetrical ones in the mid.1960s. So knife is from 1961- 1965(66) imho.
*if tweezers has nickel silver head (and not swapped) knife can be from 1961-c.1963

Thank you for the info, jnoxyd.
OK, I just assumed they were aluminum-head tweezers.     I didn't think the SAK was old enough to have the nickel silver head tweezers. How do I tell which it it? I've never seen anything other than the plastic head ones. Here's a close-up of the tweezers...

[SteveP]

One other question for the group...

With a shackle, is it possible to get the scales off intact so I can clean underneath them, then snap them back on?

[kamakiri]

Off the cuff, it looks like ‘63-‘64 to me. Can’t say exactly tell from the pics, but I think it has a polished finish on the wood saw? Not the later machined finish?

Looks like the correct scissor spring replacement would be the stainless single leaf.

Can you retake pics in better light?  Some things are hard to see with the ‘flash blasted’ lighting. Pics of the top and bottom with the tools closed might also help me too.

Looks like a nice find and hopefully a great deal!   

[kamakiri]

One other question for the group...

With a shackle, is it possible to get the scales off intact so I can clean underneath them, then snap them back on?

Anything is possible, but doing this takes a bit of practice, IMO. ~58 year old plastic can be a bit to work with.  But if you’re good with taking things apart carefully and can drill out the exposed rivet, you can get to a lot of the area underneath without removing the scales completely. Those rivet ends look like they were pretty stressed at some point anyway. Just would need to be replaced with 2.5mm nickel silver rod which is easy to get. Peening it to look right is another matter though.

[kamakiri]

Thank you for the info, jnoxyd.
OK, I just assumed they were aluminum-head tweezers.     I didn't think the SAK was old enough to have the nickel silver head tweezers. How do I tell which it it? I've never seen anything other than the plastic head ones. Here's a close-up of the tweezers...

Nickel silver will have gold or brassy tones to it, which I think yours are after tweaking your pic a little to see the color. I think these are correct for my estimated range.

[SteveP]

Anything is possible, but doing this takes a bit of practice, IMO. ~58 year old plastic can be a bit to work with.  But if you’re good with taking things apart carefully and can drill out the exposed rivet, you can get to a lot of the area underneath without removing the scales completely. Those rivet ends look like they were pretty stressed at some point anyway. Just would need to be replaced with 2.5mm nickel silver rod which is easy to get. Peening it to look right is another matter though.

Thank you for the tips, kamakiri. I don't think I'm up to risking it, just to get a clean slot for a toothpick.

[SteveP]

Off the cuff, it looks like ‘63-‘64 to me. Can’t say exactly tell from the pics, but I think it has a polished finish on the wood saw? Not the later machined finish?

Looks like the correct scissor spring replacement would be the stainless single leaf.

Can you retake pics in better light?  Some things are hard to see with the ‘flash blasted’ lighting. Pics of the top and bottom with the tools closed might also help me too.

Looks like a nice find and hopefully a great deal! 

Thanks again, kamakiri. I was hoping you'd see this thread and jump in.

Yes, polished finish on the wood saw, like on the knife blades.

I just found single leaf springs on eBay, from viktryls in Ukraine, so that's on order.

Attached are a couple of (hopefully) better pics. Let me know if you want something different.

I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that I got this SAK for $19.

[SteveP]

Nickel silver will have gold or brassy tones to it, which I think yours are after tweaking your pic a little to see the color. I think these are correct for my estimated range.

Thanks!

[jnoxyd]

Nice condition knife! Very often they have cracked liners on the back but you are lucky. According polished wood saw it is early 1960s as Kamakiri said and tweezers head most likely is nickel silver.

[SteveP]

Nice condition knife! Very often they have cracked liners on the back but you are lucky. According polished wood saw it is early 1960s as Kamakiri said and tweezers head most likely is nickel silver.

Thank you, jnoxyd. Other than the dent in the outer liner down from the corkscrew, the liners seem to be in great shape. No oxidation or warping that I can see. Barely even any scratches.

The only damage I'm a little concerned about is the pivot pin for the long nail file. I think it's bent and not seating well on the side farthest from the corkscrew. The whole nail file rotates and twists towards the corkscrew when it opens and closes. But it's straight and level at the fully closed and fully open positions. I'll just be gentle with it as there's no way I'm going to try and take it apart to fix the pin.

I'm looking forward to replacing the scissor spring though so I can use this SAK some during the Challenge of Champions next March.

[kamakiri]

Thank you for the tips, kamakiri. I don't think I'm up to risking it, just to get a clean slot for a toothpick.

*cough* pipecleaner *cough* 

[kamakiri]

Thanks again, kamakiri. I was hoping you'd see this thread and jump in.

Glad to help and I always appreciate the interesting questions and opportunity to practice chronology via pictures.

Yes, polished finish on the wood saw, like on the knife blades.

Was pretty sure based on the way the photo looked. Thanks for the confirmation.

I just found single leaf springs on eBay, from viktryls in Ukraine, so that's on order.

didn’t think he had any of the stainless ones, or I probably would have bought them! I don’t mean the black (painted?) ones.

Attached are a couple of (hopefully) better pics. Let me know if you want something different.

Those are good enough to confirm what I saw in the earlier pics. I’d lean more toward ‘63 now.

I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that I got this SAK for $19.

Don’t be embarrassed. I like great deals…even if I’m not the one who got it!  And that’s really a great deal! 

[SteveP]

didn’t think he had any of the stainless ones, or I probably would have bought them! I don’t mean the black (painted?) ones.

You know, I went back and looked at the listing photo and it looks black. Oh, well. My goal is for this SAK to be functional again - for light use. I'm not planning to sell it on. So black is OK for what I want. I'm guessing springs for nearly 60 year old SAKs are getting hard to get anyway?

Are black springs for older models? Newer ones?

[SteveP]

*cough* pipecleaner *cough* 

Now that's a great idea, thank you!

[SteveP]

Those are good enough to confirm what I saw in the earlier pics. I’d lean more toward ‘63 now.

That makes it older than me. I'll be happy with a Birth Decade SAK!

[kamakiri]

You know, I went back and looked at the listing photo and it looks black. Oh, well. My goal is for this SAK to be functional again - for light use. I'm not planning to sell it on. So black is OK for what I want. I'm guessing springs for nearly 60 year old SAKs are getting hard to get anyway?

On all of that. I use whatever is available for anything that’s a user or anything I just want to be functional. Re-bent broken double-leafs can work in a pinch too. I only wanted you to know what would be the original type.

Are black springs for older models? Newer ones?

Yes. 


Black oxide ones were used earlier up to the early ‘50s or so. Black painted/coated ones were used from early-mid ‘60s until replaced by double leafs, depending on the frame size. c.’70 for the 91mm.

Now that's a great idea, thank you!

That makes it older than me. I'll be happy with a Birth Decade SAK!

That’s a good idea. No need to join us crazies down the rabbit hole!

[SteveP]

On all of that. I use whatever is available for anything that’s a user or anything I just want to be functional. Re-bent broken double-leafs can work in a pinch too. I only wanted you to know what would be the original type.

Yes. 


Black oxide ones were used earlier up to the early ‘50s or so. Black painted/coated ones were used from early-mid ‘60s until replaced by double leafs, depending on the frame size. c.’70 for the 91mm.
 
That’s a good idea. No need to join us crazies down the rabbit hole!

Thank you again, kamakiri. Very much appreciated.

An original single-leaf spring would be nice. If I ever run across one, I can always swap the black one for it.

Now I'm curious if the one I'll be getting really is black and, if so, black oxide or black painted/coated. If the latter, at least it's the right vintage.   

[SteveP]

kamakiri,

What can you tell me about the toothpicks from this era?

The original is missing. Right now I have one with the little hook at the end inserted. But it's a tight fit - seems to be catching on the raised bump in the center.

[Fireman]

I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that I got this SAK for $19.

Great find at a great price!  I'm glad someone who know what it is go it.  It could have ended up in the bottom of someone's tackle box.

[pfrsantos]

Thank you for the tips, kamakiri. I don't think I'm up to risking it, just to get a clean slot for a toothpick.

Yup, that doesn't look like an easy/possible task. The scales might be too brittle to withstand popping out and back again.

[pfrsantos]

Great find at a great price!  I'm glad someone who know what it is go it.  It could have ended up in the bottom of someone's tackle box.

+1

Hpe you get many more of these bargains!

 

[SteveP]

Great find at a great price!  I'm glad someone who know what it is go it.  It could have ended up in the bottom of someone's tackle box.

Thanks!

At nearly 60 years old, it deserves a quiet retirement. It'll sit on my desk next to the "c" and my main Swiss Champ, kind of a family group. Though it will be coming out of retirement for the Challenge of Champions next March.   

[kamakiri]

kamakiri,

What can you tell me about the toothpicks from this era?

The original is missing. Right now I have one with the little hook at the end inserted. But it's a tight fit - seems to be catching on the raised bump in the center.

Main thing about the correct toothpicks…smooth/no bumps - none that go into the slot. A pretty wide range should fit. Pretty much would have to go back to different openers to get to have ones that won’t fit. So knives with openers with a +PAT and single leaf scissor/spring could provide the donor toothpick.

The one you have with the hook end is from ‘99/‘00. Introduced in ‘99 with the Cybertool.

[SteveP]

Main thing about the correct toothpicks…smooth/no bumps - none that go into the slot. A pretty wide range should fit. Pretty much would have to go back to different openers to get to have ones that won’t fit. So knives with openers with a +PAT and single leaf scissor/spring could provide the donor toothpick.

The one you have with the hook end is from ‘99/‘00. Introduced in ‘99 with the Cybertool.

Thank you, kamakiri.

I suppose there's always the chance I'll run across an early 1960s SAK for cheap in a junk shop - one that's trashed but has a perfect single leaf spring and toothpick that I can use in this Champion "a".   

Until then, I've filed down the bump some on the modern toothpick.

[Huntsman]

Great thread and great find Steve, it's a lovely old Champion
Hey and don't be embarassed about the paid price - I am sure all of us agree with KK - In that we are delighted for you.      
Great that someone has found a sensible price as opposed to all that crazy stuff on eBay

And thanks for the call out on the dating spreadsheet. Good to see it's still used.
That sheet helps hone in on a year range - Then the true experts here help if you want to reallly narrow it down - Thanks KK and jnoxd - Geart stuff.

And I love this:- An image of the happy family immediately popped into my head   

At nearly 60 years old, it deserves a quiet retirement. It'll sit on my desk next to the "c" and my main SwissChamp, kind of a family group.
Though it will be coming out of retirement for the Challenge of Champions next March.   

[SteveP]

Great thread and great find Steve, it's a lovely old Champion
Hey and don't be embarassed about the paid price - I am sure all of us agree with KK - In that we are delighted for you.      
Great that someone has found a sensible price as opposed to all that crazy stuff on eBay

And thanks for the call out on the dating spreadsheet. Good to see it's still used.
That sheet helps hone in on a year range - Then the true experts here help if you want to reallly narrow it down - Thanks KK and jnoxd - Geart stuff.

And I love this:- An image of the happy family immediately popped into my head   

Huntsman, that spreadsheet of yours is fantastic! I've used it many times to date a SAK. Hats off to you for creating and maintaining it.   

Though not on my desk, here's a Champion/Swiss Champ family photo I took a while ago for the Go BIG Challenge...

[SteveP]

Thank you again, kamakiri. Very much appreciated.

An original single-leaf spring would be nice. If I ever run across one, I can always swap the black one for it.

Now I'm curious if the one I'll be getting really is black and, if so, black oxide or black painted/coated. If the latter, at least it's the right vintage.   

Hey, kamakiri.

My single-leaf scissor spring from viktryls arrived today and it is black, though I can't tell if it's painted or black oxide.

I was able to punch out the remnant curl of the original spring. Any tips on how to install the replacement spring without mangling it and without the fancy scissor replacement kit/tools?

[kamakiri]

Hey, kamakiri.

My single-leaf scissor spring from viktryls arrived today and it is black, though I can't tell if it's painted or black oxide.

I was able to punch out the remnant curl of the original spring. Any tips on how to install the replacement spring without mangling it and without the fancy scissor replacement kit/tools?

I’d use the same punch that got the old remnant out. Just make sure it’s ‘seated’/centered on the hole and it should only need gentle tapping to go in and center it width wise.

I don’t have the Vic tools either.