Australian Knife Laws

[gregozedobe]

Suffice to say - I think from now on, lots of people will be removing their classics from their keychain, to save the worry of potential issues.

I'll continue to pocket carry my LM Squirt P4 and won't worry too much about it.  The next time a cop asks to see what's in my pockets will be the first time, and I've lived in Oz for more than 70 years.  Admittedly I rarely do anything to attract Police attention...

[Carthas]

I'll continue to pocket carry my LM Squirt P4 and won't worry too much about it.  The next time a cop asks to see what's in my pockets will be the first time, and I've lived in Oz for more than 70 years.  Admittedly I rarely do anything to attract Police attention...

In Queensland the government introduced "Jack's Law", named after a 19yo kid who was stabbed in the city. It allows Police to use a metal detector on anyone they like in a safe night precinct or public transport hub. The police deploy at the transport hubs and wand EVERYONE. Anyone they find with a knife or Multitool they charge - even if they have a valid excuse for carrying one as set out in Queensland's knife laws. It's up to you then, to argue your case in court. In the one case I've read where that has happened, the prosecutor offered a deal of a guilty plea in exchange for a $100 fine and no criminal conviction recorded. I expect most people will take the deal as pleading innocent means spending extra on court fees and no guarantee that the judge will find in your favor. Apparently the father of Jack is going to NSW to try to convince the premier there to implement Jack's law, as it has been so successful in Queensland, based on them seizing 1000's on knives. In Queenslnad, they're also looking at extending the places where they can use Jack's law to shopping centres.

I can't help but feel that this is wrong, that the government is targeting innocent people who are lawfully carrying a knife, just to make it look like they're being "tough on knife crime". It feels almost like a dumb version of Minority report - where they try to arrest you for a crime that you might commit in future, by acting that if you're carrying a knife, you're automatically up to no good. https://mypolice.qld.gov.au/news/2024/03/28/morayfield-commuter-safety-crackdown/

[Sea Monster]

In Queensland the government introduced "Jack's Law", named after a 19yo kid who was stabbed in the city. It allows Police to use a metal detector on anyone they like in a safe night precinct or public transport hub. The police deploy at the transport hubs and wand EVERYONE. Anyone they find with a knife or Multitool they charge - even if they have a valid excuse for carrying one as set out in Queensland's knife laws. It's up to you then, to argue your case in court. In the one case I've read where that has happened, the prosecutor offered a deal of a guilty plea in exchange for a $100 fine and no criminal conviction recorded. I expect most people will take the deal as pleading innocent means spending extra on court fees and no guarantee that the judge will find in your favor. Apparently the father of Jack is going to NSW to try to convince the premier there to implement Jack's law, as it has been so successful in Queensland, based on them seizing 1000's on knives. In Queenslnad, they're also looking at extending the places where they can use Jack's law to shopping centres.

I can't help but feel that this is wrong, that the government is targeting innocent people who are lawfully carrying a knife, just to make it look like they're being "tough on knife crime". It feels almost like a dumb version of Minority report - where they try to arrest you for a crime that you might commit in future, by acting that if you're carrying a knife, you're automatically up to no good. https://mypolice.qld.gov.au/news/2024/03/28/morayfield-commuter-safety-crackdown/

There's versions of this (what I'm about to say, not what you said), in most australian states - if you want the history read up on Garry David - basically in 1990 Australia decided to give itself the power to "detain" people because 'they might do something, somewhere, somehow' - note this is before all the terroism rhetoric that came a decade later.

Here's the title info from the NSW version of the "Community Protection Act"

'An Act to protect the community by providing for the preventive
detention of persons who are, in the opinion of the Supreme Court, more
likely than not to commit serious acts of violence."



More or less until that point in time, you had to actually commit a crime before you had business with the police - since then the states have progressively increased the "robust powers" the police have to "find bad guys"


I won't submit an opinion on the ethics of how Australian state policing occurs, just providing a bit of backstory to the last 30 odd years of, let's call it policing culture

[pietervn]

Hopefully bladeless multi's should still be ok. The other option is to leave it in a lunchbox with a piece of fruit.

It is sad that it has come this far. It would be interesting to see which knives have been used. Easy access kitchen knives has been used in most cases as far as I am aware.

Pete

[Vidar]

In Queenslnad, they're also looking at extending the places where they can use Jack's law to shopping centres.

Most shopping centres have shops that sells knives in some form or another, so that might be a challenge. Both from view of actual impact and from the view of how to get knives actually bought home..

[Farmer X]

Torches are considered a breaking and entering tool.

YGBSM.

[IMR4198]

Rainy night in Sydney.  A couple run to the door of a house.  Then they stop at the front door.

"Hurry Ronald, I'm getting soaked.  Oh, you oaf can't you find the key?"

"I'm trying dearest.  Really.  You think it's easy finding that dratted key in the dark.  Let's see....?  No that isn't it.  I know I have it somewhere....

"Don't you have one of those pocket torches?  You used to carry one.  Hurry.  My shoes are just ruined."

"Can't carry one now.  The police call them burglary tools.  Can't have them thinking we are breaking and entering or something.... I give up.  Give me one of your shoes.  I will use it to batter in the glass and reach through to the lock. "
 

[nate j]

It feels almost like a dumb version of Minority report - where they try to arrest you for a crime that you might commit in future…

This is pretty much the way I feel about the “red flag” laws that have been popping up here in the US.

People can have their rights trampled and their property seized, not because of any crime they have committed, but because they might possibly harm themselves or others at some point in the future.

Even when the laws require a hearing before a judge, the initial hearing on whether or not to issue a confiscation order is generally held ex parte, so the prospective subject of the order doesn’t even have the opportunity to be present at the hearing to present a defense.

Also, while I’m not a lawyer, a casual perusal of the Bill of Rights suggests to my mind that these laws are likely in violation of one or more of the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th Amendments.

[nate j]

torches are considered a breaking and entering tool

Is that any torch, or just the ones big enough to be used as bludgeons?

IDK about anyone else, but my torches are mostly “see where I’m going in the dark so I don’t fall on my smurf tools”.

[Valkie]

Is that any torch, or just the ones big enough to be used as bludgeons?

IDK about anyone else, but my torches are mostly “see where I’m going in the dark so I don’t fall on my smurf tools”.

Dont know.
All I know is that some kids were detained at the local train station because they were carrying torches and the police stated that there were suspicious because they had said torches..

Now, I know they can arrest you for carrying other "break and enter tools" such as crowbars, screwdrivers and lock pics, but until then I had never heard of torches..

[BPRoberts]

That sounds more like police hassling kids for doing dumb kid stuff than the torches.

[Vidar]

I don't know what flashlight those kids had, so I'm not commenting on that as such.  I just want to say that some torch designs certainly don't seem to focus on the light function. If it is made like a club, works like a club, and hurts like a club, then I'd call it a club even if there is a light at the end. Things can be both a club and a light. (I've even seen some with taser functions built in).

 An example picture included - I think it is fair to say the light function is not the primary feature here?

[Farmer X]

The light function is not the primary feature here?

In this case, I'd tend to agree. It sure looks like a baton that "just so happens" to have a flashlight at one end. My "tactical flashlight" is about 2.5 inches longer than my hand if the beam isn't being focused. (Because it's not at all pocket-friendly and has two or three irritating modes that must be cycled through, it sees very little use.)

[ReamerPunch]

Dont know.
All I know is that some kids were detained at the local train station because they were carrying torches and the police stated that there were suspicious because they had said torches..

Now, I know they can arrest you for carrying other "break and enter tools" such as crowbars, screwdrivers and lock pics, but until then I had never heard of torches..

Oh come on, are we serious? 
I started a flashlight Challenge so it would be ok to carry, instead of doing the Giants of June challenge, and now I see lights are not ok to carry either?
What's next?
Can I still carry my umbrella? Pen? Lighter?

[pfrsantos]

Oh come on, are we serious? 
I started a flashlight Challenge so it would be ok to carry, instead of doing the Giants of June challenge, and now I see lights are not ok to carry either?
What's next?
Can I still carry my umbrella? Pen? Lighter?

Are you crazy, man?! 'course not!

 

[Echotech]

Looks like I’ll be getting one of these then

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/may/07/swiss-army-knife-maker-to-produce-version-without-a-blade

[ReamerPunch]

Looks like I’ll be getting one of these then

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/may/07/swiss-army-knife-maker-to-produce-version-without-a-blade

A bladeless SAK or a knife-carrying religion? I think it's time for Grant to declare his vision, and lead us to salvation.

[ReamerPunch]

In the meantime, I'll get a bladeless Swiss Army Something. Swiss Army Tool? Swiss Army Thingy?

Hey, maybe they can go the Elon route, and write "This is not a knife" on the handle.

[old Lefty]

A bladeless SAK or a knife-carrying religion? I think it's time for Grant to declare his vision, and lead us to salvation.

I’m in for the religion!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Farmer X]

The Church of MTo!

[Vidar]

Back in the day some people in Norway made religions to avoid military service. To sort it out the law actually had some formal definitions that had to be passed to quality as a religion. From memory:

1. Belief in something.
2. Rituals and events.
3. Gatherings and organization.

I remember someone who claimed to believe in the ways and policies of the of National Norwegian Broadcaster and worshipping Einar Førde who was their boss at the time. The believers would gather every Friday in front of the TV. The printed TV program for the evening was distributed, and they would sacrifice beer, tacos and chips while watching the program of choice of their leader who controlled the power of the remote. (Who was also the owner of the living room...) That actually met all the criteria...

[Echotech]

A bladeless SAK or a knife-carrying religion? I think it's time for Grant to declare his vision, and lead us to salvation.

Back in the day some people in Norway made religions to avoid military service. To sort it out the law actually had some formal definitions that had to be passed to quality as a religion. From memory:

1. Belief in something.
2. Rituals and events.
3. Gatherings and organization.

I remember someone who claimed to believe in the ways and policies of the of National Norwegian Broadcaster and worshipping Einar Førde who was their boss at the time. The believers would gather every Friday in front of the TV. The printed TV program for the evening was distributed, and they would sacrifice beer, tacos and chips while watching the program of choice of their leader who controlled the power of the remote. (Who was also the owner of the living room...) That actually met all the criteria...

Sounds like we have a plan

Tbh I’m seriously thinking those of us in New South Wales need to get a petition or something happening

I totally get the need for teenagers not to be carrying 12” kitchen or hunting knives but it’s ridiculous we may get fined and presumably a conviction for carrying a 58mm SAK let alone a 91mm

It’s been reported on the news a number of times recently that knife crime has been steadily decreasing for the last 20 years but the pollies are under public pressure to do something.

It won’t make any difference to a criminal or teenager, they’ll carry on regardless but for the law abiding multi tool carrier it puts us in a really difficult position

In the UK you can carry a non locking folding knife under 3”, this seems a much better compromise. There’s no way we’re going to get something better than that but it does seem something to aim for

Thoughts?

[Huntsman]

Tbh I’m seriously thinking those of us in New South Wales need to get a petition or something happening
.......
It won’t make any difference to a criminal or teenager, they’ll carry on regardless but for the law abiding multi tool carrier it puts us in a really difficult position
......
In the UK you can carry a non locking folding knife under 3”, this seems a much better compromise. There’s no way we’re going to get something better than that but it does seem something to aim for

Well I'll sign the petition ET   

It's the old tools vs weapons argument and surely for just about everybody carrying a SAK or a PB tool - Its a tool!
So I'd rather have no restrictive laws
I really think the law makers need to think about who is carrying these weapons and address those issues / approach the laws from that perspective, rather than just blindly homing in on the so called weapon.
But if you have to have a law - I do think the UK approach is pretty good - ie must be non-lockable folding and <3"

As you say the crims will still carry their weapons - And sadly I believe all these new laws in NSW/Oz will not have stopped the Bondi Junction incident.
If someone is mentally unstable they will still do what they are going to do. Just like the criminal

Sorry probably getting too political here. 

[Echotech]

Well I'll sign the petition ET   

It's the old tools vs weapons argument and surely for just about everybody carrying a SAK or a PB tool - Its a tool!
So I'd rather have no restrictive laws
I really think the law makers need to think about who is carrying these weapons and address those issues / approach the laws from that perspective, rather than just blindly homing in on the so called weapon.
But if you have to have a law - I do think the UK approach is pretty good - ie must be non-lockable folding and <3"

As you say the crims will still carry their weapons - And sadly I believe all these new laws in NSW/Oz will not have stopped the Bondi Junction incident.
If someone is mentally unstable they will still do what they are going to do. Just like the criminal

Sorry probably getting too political here.

Sounds like it’s time for a pub lunch and discussion H

I don’t want to get political either, in fact I don’t think it should be political more common sense, but…….anyway won’t comment too much more but would be good if we got together anyway and discuss options. All welcome

[Farmer X]

In the UK you can carry a non locking folding knife under 3”, this seems a much better compromise.

I guess that's true enough. But no locking blades would rule out an Opinel No. 6 (a great cutting tool, but a terrible "weapon"). So I'd suggest any folder with a blade under three inches (75mm) in length should be completely free and clear to carry.

Hopefully I don't lean too far into politics here, but I also favor clear and unambiguous terminology. As an example, Michigan law mentions per se "dangerous weapons." Among them are "double-edged, non-folding 'stabbing instruments.'" That's clear enough, I do suppose. "Dirks," "daggers," and "stilettos" are also on that list, and I've yet to see any of those terms clearly and unambiguously defined. While a per se "dangerous weapon" is not in and of itself illegal,  carrying one is an enormous hassle.  Oddly enough, a balisong is considered an ordinary pocket knife under Michigan law, and some states treat balisongs very differently. Mere ownership of one is criminalized in Hawaii.

I avoid anything double-edged, and think twice about carrying a fixed blade. Beyond that, I must abide by local ordinances that prohibit automatics and blades over three inches. It is almost a certainty that I will need to find new housing, and I won't be moving within my present city. That will eliminate the prohibition on carry of automatics (which I wouldn't do anyway, as I'll spend that kind of money on a good fixed blade) and larger blades. Unless I need to go to the VA hospital, that is.

As another aside, I've recently watched a few episodes of Forged in Fire on YouTube. The frequent and seemingly emphatic use of the word "weapon" gives me a little pause.

Sorry that I rambled a bit, and hope things in Australia take a turn for the better.

[nate j]

"Dirks," "daggers," and "stilettos" are also on that list, and I've yet to see any of those terms clearly and unambiguously defined.

It might be worth checking out AKTI’s definitions page.  They do offer good definitions for “dagger” and “stiletto”, but argue (very reasonably IMO) that the term “dirk” is too vague and not reasonably definable.  Of course, it is important to keep in mind that no state or locality is bound by these definitions.

https://www.akti.org/resources/akti-approved-knife-definitions/

As another aside, I've recently watched a few episodes of Forged in Fire on YouTube. The frequent and seemingly emphatic use of the word "weapon" gives me a little pause.

I enjoy Forged in Fire.  Hopefully, if they ask contestants for a bushcraft knife or something like that, they aren’t referring to it as weapon.  But when the assignment is to make a katana, calvary saber, claymore, etc., calling it a weapon is just calling a spade a spade.

[Echotech]

I guess that's true enough. But no locking blades would rule out an Opinel No. 6 (a great cutting tool, but a terrible "weapon"). So I'd suggest any folder with a blade under three inches (75mm) in length should be completely free and clear to carry.

Hopefully I don't lean too far into politics here, but I also favor clear and unambiguous terminology. As an example, Michigan law mentions per se "dangerous weapons." Among them are "double-edged, non-folding 'stabbing instruments.'" That's clear enough, I do suppose. "Dirks," "daggers," and "stilettos" are also on that list, and I've yet to see any of those terms clearly and unambiguously defined. While a per se "dangerous weapon" is not in and of itself illegal,  carrying one is an enormous hassle.  Oddly enough, a balisong is considered an ordinary pocket knife under Michigan law, and some states treat balisongs very differently. Mere ownership of one is criminalized in Hawaii.

I avoid anything double-edged, and think twice about carrying a fixed blade. Beyond that, I must abide by local ordinances that prohibit automatics and blades over three inches. It is almost a certainty that I will need to find new housing, and I won't be moving within my present city. That will eliminate the prohibition on carry of automatics (which I wouldn't do anyway, as I'll spend that kind of money on a good fixed blade) and larger blades. Unless I need to go to the VA hospital, that is.

As another aside, I've recently watched a few episodes of Forged in Fire on YouTube. The frequent and seemingly emphatic use of the word "weapon" gives me a little pause.

Sorry that I rambled a bit, and hope things in Australia take a turn for the better.

As much as I love Opi’s at the moment things are bleak here, a 58mm SAK is outlawed

If we are to get a bit of common sense happening we’ll need to go in simply and I feel if we start trying to put in too much we’ll have no hope at all.

However us Aussie MTO members can’t be the only Aussies thinking the same thing so I reckon we’ll have to do some research in EDC and knife forums and see what people are thinking.

The recent stabbings, more than would have made overseas news, scare mongering media and politicians trying to get votes from a fearful public aren’t going to make it easy

Anyway my two cents worth, apologies if I’ve crossed the line discussing politics mods, I’ve tried to keep it general but a very hard topic to discuss without some mention of it

If nothing else time for the Sydney MTO crew to have lunch

[Vidar]

I just thought about how different that famous Crocodille Dundee knife scene would look like today... 

[Echotech]

I just thought about how different that famous Crocodille Dundee knife scene would look like today... 

It would be here in Sydney that’s for sure, but isn’t in New York so hopefully no change!

You’re not going to have a problem carrying a larger knife or fixed blade if you’re out hunting or camping or similar, it’s in the city doing basic EDC that’s the issue. Big part of the problem is the knife laws are very ambiguous

[Farmer X]

It might be worth checking out AKTI’s definitions page.  They do offer good definitions for “dagger” and “stiletto”, but argue (very reasonably IMO) that the term “dirk” is too vague and not reasonably definable.

I'd forgotten about that. Thanks for jogging my memory! Their definition of "stiletto" is, I'm sure, markedly different from that in the laws of various states.

Scare mongering media and politicians trying to get votes...

That's it in a nutshell. Punish the smurfholes, not the vast majority of citizens who abide by the law!

I just thought about how different that famous Crocodille Dundee knife scene would look like today...

Today the entire NYPD would probably show up to arrest you. The AKTI's New York knife laws page is quite a long read. I looked up one state I'm considering moving to, and its AKTI page took much less time to read.