Are modders heretics?

[Simon_Templar]

Fellow knights,

I would like to ask your opinion on a metaphysical question: is modding wrong because the meaning of SAKs is to receive in humility what Victorinox giveth us and make the best out of it? I for one believe so - does that make me a pilgrim in an unholy land on this forum?   

Cheers,

Simon

[Bunk Tuppins]

I'm not a modder and probably never will be; I'm content to use the knives in their original configurations.  I suppose it is true that occasionally knives turn up that have an almost Frankenstein quality and barely even look like a SAK any more and I admit I've raised my eyebrows now and then upon seeing such creations.  Nevertheless I say let a hundred flowers bloom!  Why not, if people are having fun doing it?  It's a legitimate avenue for creativity, imo.

[Simon_Templar]

Nevertheless I say let a hundred flowers bloom! 

...and then crush the heretics when they come out of hiding, Mao-style? I like your thinking, Bunk 

[comis]

No, as a modder and collector of SAKs, I think this hobby is however way you'd like to take it, so as long it makes you happy in a long run.

Personally, I don't actually feel I truly understand the marvelous engineering and design of a SAK, until I take one apart and learn the intricacy from within.

[crackout]

If I'm a heretic for creating this and being at piece with a perfect tool set for my EDC needs...



... then get on with it and burn me at the stake already!

[Fireman]

More power to them, I say.  Whether it's SAKs, MTs, cars, or guns, hot rod them all you want. 

[z1913]

FYI

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_burned_as_heretics

[MadPlumbarian]

A modder is one with a dream, whether it comes true depends on the modder and how important the dream is and how hard they’re willing to work for it!
JR

[hsherzfeld]

I prefer to call myself a warranty-voider.

[Simon_Templar]

Geez, is there really no one around who also thinks that man should not mess with Vic's creations?

But seriously: I totally see the point that modding is the way to create your ideal SAK, and of course I cannot pretend that I don't find the idea appealing. 

However, I really do see the merit in just trying to get as close as I can get with existing stock options. We live in a world that's obsessed with control (which ironically we often call the exact opposite, namely "freedom") and lost much of our humility and respect for nature and our fellow man in the process.

More ironically, the trivial example of SAK modding has the potential to show us that this attitude might in fact be misguided. Has anyone ever encountered a situation where having a modded SAK really made a difference? Where there was no EDC'able stock SAK which could have done the trick just as well? Victorinox has a long-standing tradition in building great multitools. Why not just trust them to offer a stock which reflects more than 125 years of aggregated customer experience?

Sometimes the wisest decision can be to just accept things the way they are and not insist on leaving your mark on everything. And it can feel quite soothing to boot.

Cheers,

Simon

[Helvetica Bold]

I love tinkering about to try to create my ideal SAK and I feel I have gotten close on occasion. However, the Swiss Champ is just such a fantastic and iconic tool I’m pretty sure I won’t surpass that….it’s big though so my fun comes from trying to get as small as possible with as much of that functionality as possible. The Manager, Ranger, waiter and work champ are also pretty perfect in my opinion but will that stop me modding….no 

It’s also sometimes a great way of owning discontinued model configurations without the often enormous expense of securing originals. 

[Simon_Templar]

It’s also sometimes a great way of owning discontinued model configurations without the often enormous expense of securing originals. 

That's true. And with 91 mm models, you won't even notice it's a mod after you slap the scales on. I guess I wouldn't say no to a Troubleshooter mod.

[Rich S]

Modding is OK with me as long as the scales are red. If it isn't red it isn't a SAK.  :-)

[Helvetica Bold]

That's true. And with 91 mm models, you won't even notice it's a mod after you slap the scales on. I guess I wouldn't say no to a Troubleshooter mod.

 :0) I’ve modded all those Malboro models at one time or another. Trailmaster is one I’ve kept and use regularly.

[DIAMOND]

I'm not sure if I will ever take a SAK apart, reconfigure it and then reassemble it.

But, I do like modding things. I can hardly buy something without altering it in one way or another.

Within me lives a very traditional man, but dwelling on the outskirts is a boy with dreams.

[Enginears]

 

Geez, is there really no one around who also thinks that man should not mess with Vic's creations?

But seriously: I totally see the point that modding is the way to create your ideal SAK, and of course I cannot pretend that I don't find the idea appealing. 

However, I really do see the merit in just trying to get as close as I can get with existing stock options. We live in a world that's obsessed with control (which ironically we often call the exact opposite, namely "freedom") and lost much of our humility and respect for nature and our fellow man in the process.

More ironically, the trivial example of SAK modding has the potential to show us that this attitude might in fact be misguided. Has anyone ever encountered a situation where having a modded SAK really made a difference? Where there was no EDC'able stock SAK which could have done the trick just as well? Victorinox has a long-standing tradition in building great multitools. Why not just trust them to offer a stock which reflects more than 125 years of aggregated customer experience?

Sometimes the wisest decision can be to just accept things the way they are and not insist on leaving your mark on everything. And it can feel quite soothing to boot.

Cheers,

Simon

Once upon a time I stared at my first Spartan, so light, so useful, such perfect tools to carry and incredibly nice snap. The size and shape seemed perfect. In my brain though was a whisper, what if I could have other tools? I bought a Huntsman, amazing! But is it too heavy in dress pants? Climber! And on and on until I had tried most models in the 1-4 layer range as well as a champ.

I wrestled with this issue. To look at it from another perspective, I would see people posting “oh here is my #1 and only special perfect tool: <insert stock model>” and I would kind of think what is wrong with me that I cannot find that for myself.

So I had curiosity get the best and I took to ordering ebay SAKs, ripping and modding, grinding and reconfiguring. I found most of the mods lacked some intangible charm that the Vic has, and not even like I was using Ti scales and brass liners - I am a relatively basic modder.

Like HB mentioned, the champ is amazing. I carried one for 60 days and loved it. I came to an arrangement where my champ stays in the bag and in the actual pocket is more of a pocket knife. 2 layers, a Pioneer may be SAK perfection. Or is it a PioneerX with the opener layer removed? I am bouncing between the two as scissors are often more immediately useful than the opener layer and if I need to screw I can grab the Champ.

All that to say, while I have chased the dragon of modding, I see and respect what you mean. I honestly feel like there is a more complicated charm aspect that I am attracted to with a stock SAK, which may or may not be present in most mods.

[Bunk Tuppins]

   Yes I think you have got something there.  It's a little bit like the appeal of restaurant food: I just order something and voila a meal appears and I don't have to cook anything or wash up any dishes!  There's an appeal to getting a shiny new SAK and never having to be aware of the messy internals, peening a rivet, etc.  You just get the perfect, shiny part...

[variable]

Disclaimer:  This is just my opinion and I am not trying to offend anyone, just what I think.

May I elaborate on this topic, “Are modders heretics”? 

First I salute Mr. Templar for this topic!  I do understand that the OP is specifically applied this topic about Swiss Army knives but I find this topic fitting for general tool discussion as modding is not limited to one area of things, nostalgic or not.

I am a person who believes once I paid and own a thing, I can do with it as I want with it, having the understanding that I will void the makers warrantee with the only option to buy it again if “I” break it. Ever since I was a young squire I took apart everything around to understand how it worked and to try to improve its functionally.

I have encountered many times where a tool or device software did not work in a situation. I have modified software to work with an out-of-parameter interface cable. I have created 6 highly functional compact tool sets instead of carrying 20 different tools, since I am a mobile technician. Being able to modify a things yourself or pay someone who can do it for you making a thing more functional to one’s life style or trade is great practical innovation.

Even with 125 years of producing a product do not translate to innovating new designs, only that the product line is streamlined for best sell-able things for a profit. Makers / manufactures make great things for the general 80% of population, there is little profit for them to do custom builds.  Yes, there are some knife and tool makers that do customization's but only aesthetics, which really is still modding.

Defining “Things” which includes computers, vehicles, clothing, homes, gear, boats etcetera  and so forth. Basically anything made by a human.

• The “Cookie Cutter” type – Is a person who just buys things with no customization and is satisfied with it just as is.
• The “Custom Buyer” type – is a person who buys things based on how it could be customized for them set by the maker or aftermarket accessories available for that thing, ie a home with a custom floor plan or a car with custom seat fabric or body work.
• The “Custom Modder” type – is a person who buys a custom thing to having it modified or designs a thing to be made to their want or needs, ie Spydernox or a kit car as some examples.
• The “Modder” type – is a person who modifies things to their wants or needs, ie having a pair of pants altered to fit better.
• The “Extreme Modder” type – Is a person who want things they have looking or functioning  their way, never satisfied with “out-of-the-box” things original looks or function, which modifies, or designs and makes things to their wants or needs.

I know there is probably a more Psychological explanation of these personality types but I am Not a Psychologist and do not care about their version, this is just my view.

My friends call me a “Extreme Modder” since I design and make or mod everything to work for my way of life, (plus I get bored easily). I find other peoples mods they have done very interesting and impressive sometimes even giving me new ideas for modding. Even my family and friends have seen the value of such practice and ask me to apply it to some of their things. 

What I have found interesting in talking with people after they have seen all the things I have modified and usually commit with a “why bother” is they also have modded other things, without realizing they have. Most modded their vehicle by add “custom” rims different tires, had the windows tinted, even “custom” body parts ie spoiler.

There those hard core people who say keep it as the maker / manufacture made it, but then where is innovation. Rely only on the maker / manufacture business models for innovation?

With all this said, even the “Cookie Cutter” types are selective about the things they get. I find most go thru a more stringent selection process since it will be a final result and some just do not care as long as it works.  If there was not a variety of people tastes in things, the world would be very boring.

If I have over step this topic and the OP or Mods think so, please delete this post, I do understand.

[Echotech]

Very interesting thread 

I like the idea of modding but the truth is I don’t really need any special toolset that I can’t find in the standard models, although I do like the idea of a bantam x or cadet x, partly cos I can’t afford a voyageur but the PX and compact are close enough for my purposes.

I really like having different models to choose from so I swap about as I feel like it, recently the Huntsman lite has become a fave but it changes constantly.  If I had a mod I don’t think that would change

I have modded a PST II and that’s cool, also much easier to mod than a SAK. Who knows one day the bug may bite but for now I’ll just swap about

I’ve always got a Rambler or Manager on my keys so add another model for what I think I’ll need that day and I’m good to go

 

[Simon_Templar]

Disclaimer:  This is just my opinion and I am not trying to offend anyone, just what I think.

[...]

If I have over step this topic and the OP or Mods think so, please delete this post, I do understand.

Why would anyone feel offended by this or would I ever delete that? You have spent considerable time to contribute ideas to the discussion which are well worth contemplating. Thanks for that to you, sir! 

I for one don't think any opinion should be considered offensive as long as it springs from a "live and let live" mindset. It's only when this is not the case and there's nothing between "the right opinion" and "being wrong" is when the problems start. But in these cases, we usually don't deal with opinions but rather with zeal. This is when things tend to get tricky, especially when the whole thing comes disguised under the ubiquitous "freedom" label. But I am going off-topic again...

Back to your post, especially the categories therein. If I would have to squeeze myself into one of your drawers, I probably would end up the cookie-cutter. Not a label anyone would want to be stuck with (might this be why you apologised in advance? ), especially since you painted a very clear picture of the downsides (to sum it up a bit acutely: an umdemanding flock of sheep and its money is easily parted). Or would they?

When I look up to the apparent top of the hill, the extreme modder seems to lead a rather restless life. Never being able to be content with anything off the shelf, always seeing room for improvement in everything, and not being able to rest until customization is achieved, would appear rather tiresome to me. Granted, great things may come out of it, but as Lord Acton once said: "Great men are almost always bad men." Looking at both sides of the pond these days, this rings truer than ever. No, I am not talking SAKs right now.

On the other hand, instead of just handing over money to the first guileful wolf that comes along, why not just be a discerning cookie-cutter  and take advantage of the fact that there is lots of competing wolves around? Do your research, carefully choose from available alternatives the one that fits your needs best (maybe even try to gratify quality or good after-sales service with a premium even though the same functionality can ge gotten cheaper elsewhere), try to drive the market in the direction you would like it to evolve? Who knows, one might end up with more peace of mind and more time on their hands for family, friends and leisure (or even work if that is one's thing;-)). In the extreme, the whole world might even become a better and safer place for the whole species

Well, just some more food for thought. Anyway, many thanks for sharing your ideas, they got me thinking. And ultimately, isn't that what it's all about?  Also, I totally get your idea of wanting to understand how things work and improve them; I believe that's the hallmark of any curious mind.

Cheers,

Simon

[Simon_Templar]

I really like having different models to choose from so I swap about as I feel like it, recently the Huntsman lite has become a fave but it changes constantly.  If I had a mod I don’t think that would change

This! 

This is only a hypothesis of course given that I don't own such a SAK, but if I had created my presumably perfect SAK, wouldn't I kind of feel obliged to always carry it? Wouldn't it feel like admitting I was wrong if I henceforth carried anything else?

After I found the CT34, I thought for a long time this was in fact the perfect SAK for me, couldn't think of anything that might possibly improve it (hope changing scales doesn't count as a mod, otherwise everything I say in this thread must be considered bigotry...). And I carried the CT34 in this belief for more than one year. Until I could no longer hide to myself that I almost never made use of the bitdriver, great as it is. I just cannot seem to find any screws which I am unable to handle with the can/bottle opener or the Jetsetter on my keyring. Not to mention that I don't happen to find many screws where there is no toolbox nearby. So I just admitted to myself that great as the CT34 is, there are more suitable (lighter) EDC alternatives around and that I had been mistaken when I had decided this was the one and only.

Similarly, it's only after getting a dog that I discovered the Lite module. I had all the Lite models in my drawer at the time but had never used them after reading on forums like this that the light is flimsy, electronics don't belong in a SAK and the batteries are expensive and don't last long enough. Well, after finding myself out at night with the dog looking for turds without a light several times, I decided to carry the Traveller Lite for a while. And I found all of the above unjustified if you take the SAK light for what it is: no competition for a dedicated flashlight, but a highly capable tool to get around in the dark in a pinch. Just like most other SAK implements, in fact. Would I have arrived at that same insight if I had owned my ideal modded SAK (which certainly wouldn't have included a Lite module)? I don't think so.

Cheers,

Simon

[Simon_Templar]

Once upon a time I stared at my first Spartan, so light, so useful, such perfect tools to carry and incredibly nice snap. The size and shape seemed perfect. In my brain though was a whisper, what if I could have other tools? I bought a Huntsman, amazing! But is it too heavy in dress pants? Climber! And on and on until I had tried most models in the 1-4 layer range as well as a champ.

I wrestled with this issue. To look at it from another perspective, I would see people posting “oh here is my #1 and only special perfect tool: <insert stock model>” and I would kind of think what is wrong with me that I cannot find that for myself.

So I had curiosity get the best and I took to ordering ebay SAKs, ripping and modding, grinding and reconfiguring. I found most of the mods lacked some intangible charm that the Vic has, and not even like I was using Ti scales and brass liners - I am a relatively basic modder.

Like HB mentioned, the champ is amazing. I carried one for 60 days and loved it. I came to an arrangement where my champ stays in the bag and in the actual pocket is more of a pocket knife. 2 layers, a Pioneer may be SAK perfection. Or is it a PioneerX with the opener layer removed? I am bouncing between the two as scissors are often more immediately useful than the opener layer and if I need to screw I can grab the Champ.

All that to say, while I have chased the dragon of modding, I see and respect what you mean. I honestly feel like there is a more complicated charm aspect that I am attracted to with a stock SAK, which may or may not be present in most mods.

I see what you mean. As usual, the truth might reside somewhere between the two extremes.

[gregozedobe]

Hmm, I'm not sure where I fit into the above "modder" classification systems.

Most of the time I'm happy with a tool as made by a manufacturer, although sometimes it is difficult to source the particular one I want in the time frame I want to use it. 

But when I feel the need I am perfectly happy to modify a tool to better suit what I am trying to do, and at other times I will even make a new tool from scratch if I can't find an existing one that suits me (or if I want to use it NOW, not wait for it to be delivered or wait for a hardware/tool store to be open then drive to it and buy it).

I won't pretend the resulting tools are always pretty (they usually aren't, but as long as they are functional that's enough for me, as I aren't making them to appeal to anyone else).  In fact they are often quite crude and primitive looking as I am focused on getting a job done.

[variable]

Just a note to everyone, these type are my view and do not mean they are definitive.
I just use "types" as a personal conversation gauge to understand other people to not push my ideas on those who I might offend or not understand.
I hope you all get what I mean.

I appreciate your professional acknowledgement of my opinion, Sir. 

I have never met a “cookie cutter” type. I think you are a closet “Modder” just does not want to admit it.

I have noticed most people due acquire most things for an unaltered end use but almost always get that one class of things they have to have modded. This is why I enjoy your / this topic as when people I met see my things and find out it is mostly all modded to some degree a discussion ensues. This is how I find about their style of things and what they modded without even realizing.

You are so right it does lead myself a restless life as I am always in pursuit of things improvement, I guess it my hobby too. But I do get to a point on the things I mod or design and build that gets to where I am satisfied with it…. then I move to the next thing.  Oh, I am no where a great man and see none leading. Most do even notice me just my things.

So true there are so many competing wolves around, good thing I just do not care about their whims of the hunt for the latest and greatest thing trend. I just mod or make for me and my family. With the plethora of choices most can find a satisfying selection things as is, but how does things innovate, evolve, improve without the end user non satisfaction?   

Who knows, one might end up with more peace of mind and more time on their hands for family, friends and leisure (or even work if that is one's thing;-)). In the extreme, the whole world might even become a better and safer place for the whole species

Funny, I half agree, as my family are all “Extreme Modders”, we all change everything to fit us instead of us fitting the things. A family activity, then we go and test it to see what works or not. But I do agree I to wish for the world to be a safer place and relearning to agree to disagree without the unnecessary drama that is being promoted these days.

Thank you for the opportunity of discussion on this topic and your views, ideas and respect.

Many Thank to ALL on MutiTool Forums!  

I see what you mean. As usual, the truth might reside somewhere between the two extremes.

My thought as well! 

[variable]

Hmm, I'm not sure where I fit into the above "modder" classification systems.

Most of the time I'm happy with a tool as made by a manufacturer, although sometimes it is difficult to source the particular one I want in the time frame I want to use it. 

But when I feel the need I am perfectly happy to modify a tool to better suit what I am trying to do, and at other times I will even make a new tool from scratch if I can't find an existing one that suits me (or if I want to use it NOW, not wait for it to be delivered or wait for a hardware/tool store to be open then drive to it and buy it).

I won't pretend the resulting tools are always pretty (they usually aren't, but as long as they are functional that's enough for me, as I aren't making them to appeal to anyone else).  In fact they are often quite crude and primitive looking as I am focused on getting a job done.

For me I would say you are a "extreme modder" since  you said you mod tools and make your own. 

I too am not into the visual aesthetics, but the multi use functionality of the thing.   

A pet peeve of mine and family is all that we own needs to do more than one thing.   

[comis]

Geez, is there really no one around who also thinks that man should not mess with Vic's creations?

But seriously: I totally see the point that modding is the way to create your ideal SAK, and of course I cannot pretend that I don't find the idea appealing. 

However, I really do see the merit in just trying to get as close as I can get with existing stock options. We live in a world that's obsessed with control (which ironically we often call the exact opposite, namely "freedom") and lost much of our humility and respect for nature and our fellow man in the process.

More ironically, the trivial example of SAK modding has the potential to show us that this attitude might in fact be misguided. Has anyone ever encountered a situation where having a modded SAK really made a difference? Where there was no EDC'able stock SAK which could have done the trick just as well? Victorinox has a long-standing tradition in building great multitools. Why not just trust them to offer a stock which reflects more than 125 years of aggregated customer experience?

Sometimes the wisest decision can be to just accept things the way they are and not insist on leaving your mark on everything. And it can feel quite soothing to boot.

Cheers,

Simon

I am always appreciative to Victorinox offering such variety of tools in different formats, like you said, one could almost find something that is closest to his/her own need.  So much so that it is almost semi-custom made, but at a affordable cost.  As a knife/MT/tool enthusiast, I can't think of a better time to be alive.

So why even attempt modding, when most majority of our needs could be addressed by just purchasing the 'right' Vic tool?   Owning a discontinued tool, the pride of making a totally customized tool, just can't leave things alone....or simply because we can? 

Circle back to what I said earlier, it is always about being happy.  If it makes you happy, go for it!

[Bunk Tuppins]

A pet peeve of mine and family is all that we own needs to do more than one thing.   

Then again there are those who say it took God to make a working dual-purpose device and even that doesn't always work!

By the way, as a member of the group that has been termed 'cookie cutters' I must protest the appellation. Cookie cutter implies that knives are all the same, stamped out identically.  But don't you see, a lot of us were just over on the other thread confessing to owning dozens of different models.  Not all the same! 

I think what a lot of these posts are demonstrating is that this is a multi-faceted hobby, that people are drawn to it for many different reasons, and that the owning of SAKs can satisfy a number of different desires and motivations.

[Ron Who]

I´m just thinking about the PX. A lot of PX´s were made by modders before Victorinox noticed there was a market for it. Were these modders really heretics? I´d rather call them visionaries.

[Bunk Tuppins]

I´m just thinking about the PX. A lot of PX´s were made by modders before Victorinox noticed there was a market for it. Were these modders really heretics? I´d rather call them visionaries.

[PitCarver]

While I neither have the knowledge or skills to mod a SAK of I did, I'd certainly be doing it.   Crackout's midi champ is the perfect example of what I wish I could do.