The direction Victorinox is heading.

[powernoodle]

We want new SAKs and MTs from time to time, with new tools.  Victorinox wants to make money.  When those goals are entangled (< quantum mechanics), everyone is happy.  When Victorinox increases revenue while leaving its SAK and MT lineup dormant year after year, they are happy and some of us aren't.  Its just the way things are.

 

[Tasky]

Youtuber Jon Gadget - who has some serious credentials to back up his opinions - has opined that Victorinox has not done anything innovative in the SAK lineup in the last 3 years.  Instead, he notes that Victorinox has been more focused on "style", scents, watches and other ancillary products.

I used to watch his channel quite a bit, but gave up when I found that, as with this latest video, his 'opinions' are merely echoes and plagiarisms of what people on forums such as this have already been saying. This coupled with his salesman tactics of peppering his videos with affiliate links for everything he's reviewing just robs him of any credence, IMO.
He used to run the Gadget Shop and similar outlet chains, but now they've all been superseded, he's basically flogging stuff on YouTube instead. I have other more personal gripes, but they're nothing to do with his 'credentials'.

Changing the outdated can opener into a package opener on most models would be an easy innovation that would get an instant sale or two from me. It would make the tool much more relevant for modern day use and save my main blade from tape glue mess.

A quick wipe with a bit of IPA on a tissue removes all traces of tape/glue residue, and it's a far cleaner job than it would be with gunked-up serrations on the newer tool.
Personally I still use the can opener to open cans about 3 times a week, along with all my other off-piste uses, so it doesn't seem very outdated to me...

[nate j]

Are there models Vic has discontinued over the years that I liked and was sorry to see go?

Absolutely.


Are there models I wish Vic would produce, but they probably never will?

Again, yes.


However, I’m confident that Vic is making (largely) data-driven decisions designed to ensure the long-term viability of the business.  And as long as they keep making high quality pocket tools at a reasonable price, I’ll continue to buy them.

[Enginears]

A quick wipe with a bit of IPA on a tissue removes all traces of tape/glue residue, and it's a far cleaner job than it would be with gunked-up serrations on the newer tool.
Personally I still use the can opener to open cans about 3 times a week, along with all my other off-piste uses, so it doesn't seem very outdated to me...

I am with you on this. I don’t open cans with it quite that much, but I certainly live in a place where many of  the cans require it. Along with the alternative uses it is one of my most used tools. The package opener seems like the answer to a problem I don’t have. Using a blade to open packages is something I enjoy.

Are there models Vic has discontinued over the years that I liked and was sorry to see go?

Absolutely.

It would be quite cool if Vic took a page from the guitar makers like Fender, Gibson etc. who make modern reissues of old models. If they tooled up to make a run of Yeomans, alumnus, or voyageur it seems like many folks would be excited enough to buy multiples.

[ThundahBeagle]

If it is family-owned, it is a closely-held corporation but it would still have shareholders - in this case the family.

However it is configured, it exists for the sole purpose of maximizing revenue.  So I can't blame Victorinox for carrying out its mission.  I just wish it gave us a couple of new SAK models along the way, or at least integrated the box opener from the Companion into the general lineup in place of the can opener.  And lose the stupid cork screw, and . . .   .

They are probably consolidating as has previously been said.  Tough going, these last few years.  Innovation costs money and inflation, CPI are running rampant.  Easier to control costs, and cut down on duplicate or similar designs.

Victorinox COULD reverse-innovate.  I wouldnt mind them getting rid of that blasted "hook" on the scissors models.

[ReamerPunch]

Victorinox is expanding their other lifestyle product lines to attract new customers, in order to achieve meaningful growth. Releasing a Farmer X with a file still appeals to the knife people, and they're already customers. It is easy for me to say "why don't they just put screws instead of pins?", but that is a massive change to their assembly line, not to mention customer service and warranty claims, because people took apart their SwissChamp and can't put it back together, or lost a washer or got cut by the loose blade etc.

I'm ok with the innovation I've seen since the first SAK I ever bought. It it ain't broken, don't fix it.
Still, I will look into what models I'd like to have, in case they stop making them.

[Etherealicer]

“Innovations” may not be the best word for some of these ideas. Maybe just “common sense updates”? For instance, they could offer the package opener as an option on many of their mid-size models. They could call it “Urban edition” or something, (Spartan Urban, Cadet Urban, etc).
But I don’t own a century-old company so what do I know. 
  [ Quoting of attachment images from other messages is not allowed ]  
*Edited for clarity and to remove some previous quote

This is why I hyphenated "innovations" 

I actually have quite some hope for the package opener. E.g. that could be a good tool on a blade-less "knife" double-plus-

As for an urban tool. Honestly, that needs a nail file/-cleaner. Because grooming is a huge part of urban-lifestyle. I think that is the tool that is missing the most in the 91mm line-up (sure, you can use the metal file, but ideally they would add a fine diamond side tripple-plus-plus- )

[tosh]

Hmm
It was so obvious this would happen
With Wenger gone Vic has the market to themselves, no competition means no innovation. We might all be bored but the next generation will discover the Red Swiss Army Knife and they then become excited, in time they’ll get bored and the next generation….

It’s sad that once upon a time Vic was actually radical. I can no longer remember the models but I still have the tools buried in the loft..
The Auto Tool
The Butane Triplets
The MP player
The monster XXLT
Plus a few more that sadly I no longer remember

Today with no competition the brand is as stale as last months bread. Their Wenger clones are just that… clones. Anyone who knows the history will want the real deal not just a clone.

I’ve no time for Victorinox. Both they and leatherman have gone the same way…
Both brands bore me to tears, as dull as ditchwater.

[Djiaux]

I discussed this recently

Victorinox makes VERY good SAKs and MTs which for many are almost perfect. These also have the tradition and consistency, your swisschamps is probably almost the same that one from the 90s.
This together with a good support, repairability and reasonable prices for some of their lineup.

They sit on that legacy.

I really love it in this world of dwindling quality and use and discard. If I want my Victorinox to be for life, they may be.

But.
Victorinox is not only that is not innovating, it has been actively un-inmovating by closing Wenger : (
C'mon Victorinox.
That was a D move, you bought and closed your more innovative cousin so we only have you?
Not cool, and I mean it. The chinese SAKs are coming and you are only going to offer people what I said at the beginning, you don't plan to adapt or improve your products right?

Those SanRenMu SAKs look pretty good, and your bigger SAKs don't look as good as Wenger's where, you know?


Summary. Love their consistency and I totally can live with it. I really don't like them closing Wenger.




One thought. Leatherman is innovating. In the wrong direction all the time, but it is.
Many attempts to innovate are not good and a Victorinox style consistency is better.

[ThisAlarm7]

I don't know what their internal sales numbers are, but while it's less an issue here in Idaho even in the biggest city, people seem to be carrying knives and multitools less.  This is incredibly disappointing, but seems to be a trend. While thankfully, again, not an issue in Idaho legalities are changing in a lot of places to hasten that also which I take the dimmest of views on. So I'm guessing that perceived lack of innovation dovetails with that...there is less room for innovation that isn't going to be certainly profitable. I don't begrudge either Vic or LM....they have to do what it takes to survive. And for the latter, I am very grateful they still invest and make so much in the US and have resisted what Buck and others have done with cheap Chinese or similar product lines not made in the US.

[nate j]

Victorinox is not only that is not innovating, it has been actively un-inmovating by closing Wenger : (
C'mon Victorinox.
That was a D move, you bought and closed your more innovative cousin so we only have you?
Not cool, and I mean it.

Before you condemn Vic too harshly, you may wish to consider the following:

- When Vic bought Wenger, Wenger was effectively bankrupt.  Wenger was going to be bought by someone at that point.  The only question was, “Who was going to get control of Wenger’s assets and perhaps even more importantly, Wenger’s intellectual property?”

- After purchasing Wenger, Vic did try to continue producing knives at the Delemont factory, first under the Wenger brand and later as the Victorinox Delemont line.


As a privately held company, Vic doesn’t have to explain their reasoning or reveal financial statements publicly to shareholders.  But my read on the situation is that Vic only reluctantly bought Wenger when it became apparent that Wenger wasn’t going to survive, largely to keep the value of the Swiss Army brand from being diluted by letting someone else buy it who would quickly start churning out inferior quality Wengers from some factory in China.  (This has happened to a number of once proud American knife brands.)

And once Vic had Wenger, they didn’t shut it down immediately.  Rather, they really tried to make it successful.

[magentus]

Before you condemn Vic too harshly, you may wish to consider the following:

- When Vic bought Wenger, Wenger was effectively bankrupt.  Wenger was going to be bought by someone at that point.  The only question was, “Who was going to get control of Wenger’s assets and perhaps even more importantly, Wenger’s intellectual property?”

- After purchasing Wenger, Vic did try to continue producing knives at the Delemont factory, first under the Wenger brand and later as the Victorinox Delemont line.


As a privately held company, Vic doesn’t have to explain their reasoning or reveal financial statements publicly to shareholders.  But my read on the situation is that Vic only reluctantly bought Wenger when it became apparent that Wenger wasn’t going to survive, largely to keep the value of the Swiss Army brand from being diluted by letting someone else buy it who would quickly start churning out inferior quality Wengers from some factory in China.  (This has happened to a number of once proud American knife brands.)

And once Vic had Wenger, they didn’t shut it down immediately.  Rather, they really tried to make it successful.

Well said 

[tosh]

I disagree totally
Yes Wenger were struggling but  they also held their own patents
The reason why Wenger allowed the take over is because Victorinox agreed to keep the workforce. However I was actually in conversation with a wenger employee in the US the day they were told they had all lost their jobs and the office would be shut down!! They were all in disbelief as they too had heard the rumour for Wenger agreeing to the takeover was to secure the workforce.
Clearly it was a lie

I never really bought into this silly “pure as the driven snow” Victorinox likes to portray, they are as ruthless as any big company.

Had Wenger sold to a different buyer we would be seeing lots of innovation as they competed against each other. Instead the Victorinox brand is meh…. Just churns out coloured Alox  under limited runs at grossly inflated prices. But the fact is, Wenger were more radical and constantly pushed ideas

Victorinox is now such a dull brand
I never ever show interest in any of their line up.

[gustophersmob]

I don’t have any insider knowledge, just what I’ve read through the years on the web and in knife-industry publications. I’ll just offer two possible counterpoints:

1) before the merger, Wenger themselves had already discontinued a lot of the “innovative” tools. They, too, were subject to market pressure like anyone, and only kept producing what sold.
2) it’s been reported in enough different places that Vic kept all the employees that it’s become “fact.”  Maybe it’s not so clear-cut. I’m guessing they kept on all the workers in delemont. Outside that, who knows. I can see why maintaining sales and marketing all over the world would be a duplicate of the victorinox sales and marketing. Plus, they are a Swiss company and likely had more loyalty to Swiss Wenger employees. Also wonder if Wenger had something going like victorinox used to with Swiss Army Brands Inc (SABI)? As in, a separate company that imported Wenger product to the US. Was the US Wenger employee actually employed by Wenger?

No idea if any of that is accurate, just speculating.

[IMR4198]

    We have some Swiss members here.  Most of them big SAK buffs.  Seems like one of them would tell what the ultimate fate of the Delemont factory was.  Take a little trip there.  Ask some locals (who always know everything).  I looked through as much of the licensing data I could online, and the Jura newspapers to see if they said anything without any luck.  I very strongly disbelieve that the Delemont factory is actively in production and all the former employees are still working there or for Victorinox in any fashion.  No doubt they remained on after the sale.  For a time.  Is a portion of the factory making something like luggage or watches?  Could be.  Where are the remaining knives like the big Rangers being produced?  Don't know.  Wenger made lots of kitchen knives.  How about those?  Likewise, don't know. 
     Lots of questions.  Not many answers. 
Best wishes.  G
 

[Djiaux]

And once Vic had Wenger, they didn’t shut it down immediately.  Rather, they really tried to make it successful.

While I understand that Victorinox is a company and they have to make their way in a ruthless world (again, there are many aspects of Victorinox that I love, I'm far from being done with them), they did close Wenger and all those lines of Wenger knives.

To me, they made a conscious decision to keep their current working philosofy of strong consistence, avoided all that and kept their safe, profitable cards.

This is probably sound economically, but it frustrates many fans. Because Victorinox seems focused on their safe cards and their innovation seems to be focused to special editions, collectables and not-knive products.
So, many fans were already frustrated that Victorinox didn't made sone improvements that seemed obvious and easy and got more frustrated when they closed Wenger, because ther readed that NO innovations are coming.


I'm frustrated too, but only a bit. I like Victorinox products, I won't get any special editions or non knivy products (*) and I can live and even like a company that has found a way to pass on the modern trend of use and discard.
But, I think the criticism to Victorinox is legit.



(*) Except for the swisscard. Damm, you robbed me there, Victorinox :_ (

[Huntsman]

So a few points from me.
Sorry just finished writing it - It's very long ..... Pls feel free to ignore !!         

Agree with a lot of what is being said even some of Tosh's comments! 

I understand that V did rescue Wenger in 2005 - They were going under for several reasons
I also heard that they did it to keep Swiss Army Knives Swiss
They let Wenger run completely independently for nearly 10 years (Peter Hug as CEO) - That was pretty cool and generous

However, having two Swiss Army Knife manufacturers on the market, effectively competing against each other, when they both had the same owners and almost identical product lines, did not really make sense, and also confused customers - not us lot of course - but the general public. So Vic merged the product lines.

My understanding was that everyone at the Delemont factory was kept on, after the shutdown of Wenger SAK brand in 2013/4
For sure they would have made all the Delemont SAK range and also luggage and watches
I would think that the US 'Wenger' team would not have been employed by Wenger - More likely a US subsidiary, or even an  independent importer/ dealership/ wholesaler, just like SABI/ Forschner for Victorinox
Where they are at 12 years later - now the Delemonts SAKs have all but gone, I could not say.

I do agree Victorinox are cautious and non-innovative - See John Gadget's YT video for example.
It was such a shame they did not keep some of that Swiss/French flair and innovation from the Wenger team and products   
For me the Realtree camo scales, the evo scales and colours, maybe one or two of the wacky SAKs - See below, wold have been great to carry forward. 

However, regarding these wonderful Wenger innovations that we all love so much - (BTW - I for one really, really do love them)
.... I call these the wacky SAKs
You gotta ask yourself - How many of them would be great sellers - and make good money for the company....   eg Who needs a SAK with gas chromatography equipment, even who needs (or would buy) a SAK with a football boot stud remover, or bike maintenance tools, or watch maintenance tools?         
All these tools and SAKs are amazing - But there must be a very, very limited market for these tools/SAKs - and production and distribution and marketing costs vs revenue gained must be out of balance .... say compared to a Vic Classic. !!   

And as for the Wenger Business Tool - What a fantastic and innovative tool that was - I have one and just love it
But I heard that it was a commercial disaster - Just not cost effective for office workers or companies to buy, compared to a regular stapler and scissors etc etc. I also heard that the BT was single handedly responsible for Wenger's downfall. Unverified news!!

Finally innovation again -  I think the SAK (and to some extent pliers based multis) have gone as far as they can go ...... and you could even say have even reached perfection.
Just look at the SAKs that Victorinox have in their current product line - and ask yourself whether they will meet the needs of nearly everyone in the market place?           ....... The answer has to be yes  !!!
Although I gotta say I for one am pretty disappointed by Vic's dwindling product line and frequent retirements of many models

But when you couple all this with the social and governmental pressures that are moving, and pushing everyone away from carrying a pocket knife, or multitool (stupid laws - we all know this) - But it is a reality and companies have to respond to those pressures and their effect on the market.

Anyway if you got this far - Thanks for reading - Just my ramblings       

[Djiaux]

Finally innovation again -  I think the SAK (and to some extent pliers based multis) have gone as far as they can go ...... and you could even say have even reached perfection.

While I'm not sure of this, I think this is the case for many SAKs.

The Swisschamp for instance is almost perfect to me. Good quality, great set of tools, repairability and has existed for decades. Not trully perfect, but out of getting a custom one I don't think it gets any better than this.
Does this mean there are no other desirable SAKs? Yes there are. But it is a pretty perfect one.

[tosh]

Hmm

The single one thing I hate about modern Victorinox is the mag layer. I absolutely detest the modern version
The older grey version was to me perfect. Likewise the limited runs with serrated main blade should be brought back and in my view should be a compulsory addition on Swiss champs

As for wengers  innovation … I really don’t think they were ever intended to be for real world use. MT’s are notoriously poor compared to “real” stand alone tools. Truth is they are all gadgets !!

However, having said all that if Wenger still existed today with forums,, YT and SM platforms to show themselves to the world I think it would be a  different story

The tragedy is Wenger we’re ahead of their time.

[fullbreakfast]

I dunno how anyone can say Victorinox lacks innovation when they brought us the Cheese Master. Works on any type of cheese. Except cream cheese, cottage cheese and a runny Brie or Camembert.

Damn it all they even give ya a toothpick in case some cheese rind gets stuck in your teeth. And you guys aren’t even grateful.

[gustophersmob]

 

Check and mate.

[psyjohn]

I've been following this thread since the original post, and find all the comments interesting and often informative. I'm curious what innovations people would like to see besides a modular knife or different steel. At least on Reddit, those are usually most of the comments on this topic. Neither option seems feasible to me from a cost perspective. Victorinox makes very high quality tools for fairly low prices, and customizing them would require those prices to go up drastically for a small market. Outside of here and Reddit most people only know the Classic, Spartan, Tinker, and Huntsman/Fieldmaster. Those are the money makers. When friends of mine see one of my Pioneers the reaction is always, "I didn't know they made Swiss Army Knives like that." Heck, I had several Vics and Wengers for years, but I didn't know Alox existed until I started seriously collecting.

It's sometimes hard to remember, but we are a rather niche group so we look at it quite differently from the general consumer. Admittedly I'm a Victorinox fan boy, but that's because I love the history, tradition, and quality. I know I can always depend on the SAK in my pocket. I do enjoy the small innovations like the new Companion package opener and the Cyber Tool driver, but at the end of the day a Swiss Army Knife does what I need it to do. Would I buy an innovative new SAK? Absolutely! If it met a need for me I'd be all over it. Honestly though, I can't think of any tool they could make that would be important to me.

Thanks for reading the thoughts of my rambling mind. Once of the things I love about the Knights is different viewpoints are always respected. All of you are good people for sure.

Final thought: I do love the Wenger Nail Clip. That was a genius idea.

[cbl51]

(SNIP,)

It's sometimes hard to remember, but we are a rather niche group so we look at it quite differently from the general consumer. .

(SNIP)

And the right there is a huge amount in a nutshell.

We, the obsessed fan boys and girls of the almighty SAK, are a very small cult of the consumer base that keeps Vixtorinox in business. I would dare to venture we would about to a very small single digit percent of the overall sales of Victorinox products sold world wide. Victorinox is a huge company, with sales in most of the countries of the world. Europe, North America, Central America, South America, mid east, Africa, Southeast Asia, India. When the wife and I took an eco-tour of the rainforest in Costa Rica, I saw a heck of a lot of belt pouches on hips with a SAK in them. In San Jose there were stores with the big red moving SAk in the window, and on our jungle tour with camping out every night, the tour guide all had a SAk combined with a small machete.  The SAK was always in a belt pouch with a Bic lighter. 

I seriously doubt people in these places know what steel in in their SAK, or even care. All they know is they have a real SAk with some tools and it can be counted on is some of those odd moments life throws a little problem in your way.  To them, Victortinox is a standard of sorts. like  Bic lighter or pen, Coca Cola or Casio watch, or Toyota Corolla which is the worlds best selling car. I think that's the draw for most of the customers that buy a SAK. The reputation of the brand combined with brand recognition.  These people are not knife nuts, far form it. They want a knife/tool that is moderately priced, works well, and is replaced at not too great an inconvenience or cost. It works well enough at its intended task, so it is satisfactory to them.

I can't begin to guess how much money is spent by Victorinox every year on market research and surveys, but I'd guess it's pretty extensive. They know their customer bas way better than we do, and I'd bet we don't even make hardly a blip on their corporate radar. Okay, maybe a tiny blip, but not much of one.  For these people the Vic steel is "good enough". The standard selection of tools is "good enough."

A case can be made with the standard SAK steel being the best for that intended market. It's soft enough to resist breaking or chipping. It will blunt or roll before chipping or breaking.  But, it can be touched up in a few minutes if that, on the bottom of a coffee mug or china plate. A smooth standout of creek bed will work in pinch. But it will cut open boxes or cut a piece of cordage, or slice open plastic packages with ease.

For a boy scout in the U.S., a taxi driver in Paris, a deliver van driver in Tokyo,  an office worker in London, or a retired machinist in Georgetown Texas who likes to woods walk and fish, a SAK is a perfect pocket knife. It's all that's needed.  People like  John Gadget and his followers are the very small minority of the obsessed fan boys. The bottom line is that in the weekly meeting of the board at Victorinox, they are looking at the bottom line.  And there just are not enough of us, to make a difference in that.

[marlowe221]

I do wish the Delemont/Wenger line would keep going. I'm pretty bummed about that one - I really like the evolution scales, for one thing! But I also hate to see what appears to be the gradual sun setting of the 84mm product line on the Victorinox side too. If we ever see a 91mm Recruit introduced, then we know it's truly over the the 84mm models...

Otherwise, I find it hard to fault the company too much for doing what it has to do to keep going. It can't be easy to keep production Swiss, keep quality at traditional levels, and keep prices reasonable all a the same time in today's economic circumstances.

[Vidar]

Last time I tried checking Victorinox AG had an estimated turnover of some USD 850 million which translated to a turnover of roughly USD 350000 per employee. Unless they have unusually large financial costs on machinery as compared to other industrial manufacture my guess would be that they are quite profitable. (The rule of thumb here in Norway for most businesses is a turnover per employee of roughly USD 150-250000 (depending on the business) should support a profitable business. Switzerland is a bit more expensive but probably not too far off). 

A lot of the turnover comes from other kind of products and licensing so the SAK branch could be doing differently for better or worse than their overall results.

[Huntsman]

@ Everyone - Very good points

I do wish the Delemont/Wenger line would keep going. I'm pretty bummed about that one - I really like the evolution scales....

Yep 100% agree Marlowe - It would have liked to see the 84 and 85 families merged somehow - keeping the Evo scales and also keeping the Alox Cadet - as that has got to be a very popular model. The toolset would have had to be aligned too eg Common scissors as opposed to the two designs etc
Let's just hope they keep the Rangers and the nail-clip - As those are fabulous models.

@CBL - Yep I agree and have had similar thoughts myself in terms of our $$$ size versus the market size for Vic.

However, I do know that they value our opinions, .... even if they don't always take them on board!
- Look at how they reacted to John Gadget's video, and I know they use SAKWiki regularly, and occasionally reach out to our boss man for comment/information!!

[Djiaux]

(SNIP)
For a boy scout in the U.S., a taxi driver in Paris, a deliver van driver in Tokyo,  an office worker in London, or a retired machinist in Georgetown Texas who likes to woods walk and fish, a SAK is a perfect pocket knife. It's all that's needed.  People like  John Gadget and his followers are the very small minority of the obsessed fan boys. The bottom line is that in the weekly meeting of the board at Victorinox, they are looking at the bottom line.  And there just are not enough of us, to make a difference in that.

While I totally agree to this and I think Victorinox is doing a great job of keeping their base products available and consistent, I still think the criticism is valid.

As a fan I wouldn't like all those 'base' products to change. In fact I love that they are the same as when I was a teen. But I think there are some products for people like us fans that are seeing too little innovation.

IMO some lines for fans have to exist, and they have been dwindling in numbers. Innovation has been reduced.

[Yanossauro]

There are only two things from Wenger's 85mm lineup that I'd like to have on my 91mm and 86mm knives:
1. The auto-lock function on the screwdriver.
2. Evolution scales.

I wish they'd have picked up on some of Wenger's creativity.  With the exception of the one hand opening to the Swisstool lineup, it's been the same old same old from them for awhile.  While I don't expect them to go off the rails crazy I agree with you PN.  There's a lot of excitement out there that could be tapped into.

[Yanossauro]

I've been saying the same thing for years.
Usually to adolescents (or adolescent-minded adults) who view tacticool knives with black G10 scales and slightly different blade shapes or different steels that only serve the purpose of increasing the price tag as "new", "innovation".
And I'm getting tired of that.

As far as being “innovative,” I wonder if people even know what they mean by that. I have a feeling most use it because they want a new shiny to buy.

Many MT companies that are “innovating” are putting out a lot of hot garbage and occasionally a gem come through. I don’t think I’d like a lot of hot garbage coming from Vic.

Or it’s stuff like leatherman’s garage where it’s limited qty and stupid expensive. Neither of which fit the Vic ethos.  Or the Arc, which seems to be a wave/free love child with a high price tag. If “innovation” from Vic only applies to limited editions or leads to ridiculous prices for main line stuff, I’d rather they not.

Just my $0.02

[BPRoberts]

Strong agree on the pseudo-lock on the drivers. Not a big fan of the evo scales. Could maybe talk me into the evo grips...