How much innovation do we need?

[kirk13]

So let me start with a little preamble: this is not a diss post. I am going to question a lot of product types; hobbies; and likely lifestyle choices. This is coming from a few threads I've been looking at recently but I need to make very clear that this is not aimed at any members. I'm not critising them, you, your hobbies or interests, and in more than a few cases I will be very guilty of the things I'm questioning.

So

So there's been a few threads questioning a lack of innovation from Victorinox (oh the heresy  ) and the multi tool manufacturers,  but how much innovation do we really need or want?

Before looking at the sharp and shinys I'm going to look at a few other product types to see if there's a zenith of development. These will be things I've some experience of, but am not necessarily expert in, much like knives and pocket tools.

So, I'll start with guitars. The acoustic guitar hasn't changed much in well over a hundred years. There's been 12 strings, tenors, dreadnoughts and parlours, but these are size and sound volume related. There has been some ventures into man made materials, but by and large there's not much of a difference between say a Martin Dreadnought from the mid 1920s and one from the mid 2020s.

The big change came withe the need for greater sound volume for jazz and big bands starting in the 20s. When the acoustic dreadnought reached its limited, the resonator or dobro was invented,  with what is a mechanical amplifier. This quickly lost out to the electric pick up and amplifier and this was in maybe a 15 year period. From say 1950 to 1960( and yes, i am playing fast and loose with dates) Fender and Gibson gave us the classic designs shapes that live on to this day ( as did Gretch, Rickenbacker and so on). This period saw the invention and supposed replacement of the single coil pick up with the twin coil or humbucker pickup. The next breakthrough was the effect peddles and improved ( it goes up to 11) amplifiers as more volume a tone was required in the 69s. All these have been refined over the years, but the zenith of development was over by say 1970.

I have a good Squire Stratocaster and a Vox practice amp that can simulate a AC10, AC15 AND AC30 amongst others...a modern take on very old tech. Oh, and for the record, the Strat is wasted on me, I'm not really good enough to make full use of it 

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Mountain bikes I've been into since fairly early on. My wallet has never quite matched my interest, but here we see a trend again. The original MTBs were hacked up Schwinn cruisers. Before long they grew front suspension and wider and stronger steering tubes. To me, the interesting thing was watching MTB suspension evolving through the same patterns as motorbikes did ( girder, leading link and telescopic) before settling on telescopic ( though to this day I think leading li k offered benefits.

 The same happened with frame materials,  rear suspension and frame geometry. After about 2005 MTBs, both full suspension and hard tail, settled into their optimal form. We'd seen the zenith.

Mobile phone are similar. Now I still miss the Nokia 3310. Was there ever truly a better dumb phone? I'd love to say it was the zenith of Mobile phone development but then there was the pesky iPhone. But even there, Apple hit a nail so beautifully on the head it was an instant classic and zenith. Yes we now have better battery life, better cameras, memory capacity and processor speeds, but really, how much actual innovation has there been?

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So, back to where I started from.

I miss the 'old' days on the forum, when Leatherman,  Gerber and SOG were trying money things( yes there was CRKT, Bear and victorinox, but again, I taking liberties  ).

I really miss the Paratool and the PPP. No, they weren't perfect, but my heavens they were interesting.

The Gerber Flik, was horribly flawed, yet the one I gifted to my line manager before finishing up at Hamleys is still going strong and still saving the day. And you know what? It was interesting!

Leatherman had their share of dead ends. The Mini ( ) is much loved and missed; the OHT, the ST200 and Pulse with their roller locks. Great tools. But has Leatherman really done better than the OG Wave 2 or the Fuse? Aren't their current tools just repackaging of these concepts?

Gerber is still churning out AK47...I mean MP600s. So many of their tools, good and bad, have come and gone, but the MP600 is still there. Is the Centerdrive a hit or miss? At the UK price, I won't be finding out for myself, but surely that was a refinement, not an innovation?

To me multitools have passed their zenith. We reached the optimal form. We're now either refining or adding status to the product; or hyping refinement in order to keep the consumer jumping.

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The humble ( ) SAK reached its zenith by maybe 1980. Think of it: the M1961 has a devoted following, and the recent refinements ( Pioneer X ,Farmer X, Companion ) are just that, refinements drawn from the nodding community.

In the 91/85mm size, one Wenger finally got a decent can opener that was it. Sure, there were snowboarding and Bike too.s, but the basic form has not been bettered? And really, what's wrong with that? What more innovation is needed?

Both Victorinox and Wenger built their big knives, and yes, a One Handed GAK would still be very likely my end of the world choice of knife, but they too were one flash, straight-ish to their zenith.

The new Synergy. Is it an innovation or the solution to a non existent problem? As an old form member ( are you out there Al?) used to say, more or less,if you need a locking blade on a SAK, maybe you need a new technique in handling a knife.

So yeah, here's the thing. If you like, or enjoy collecting new kit, hell,  good on ya! Enjoy. I know I have, and will continue too here and there( and yes, as a model builder I will continue buying 3 kits for every one I build). If you like owning something, be it a Fender custom shop Rory Gallagher Stratocaster or a Spyderco unobtanium Delicia just because you like having something fancy, more power to you.

But before complaining about a lack of innovation,  maybe question what innovation is left; and are manufacturers 'innovating ' or just looking for new ways to exploit a consumer market? Maybe we dont need change for change sakes?

As Joanie Mitchel sang: On and on it goes, we dont know what we've got till its gone...

[magentus]

A thought provoking post John.

I reckon LM, Victorinox, Gerber, SOG et al perfected the multitool and pocket knife ages ago - as much as I love my multi's, I ran out of stuff to say about them a few years ago - I use them, I enjoy them, they work, they're beautiful in their own way and I can't think of any real improvements that could be made to any of them.

Maybe this is why we're just seeing different iterations of colour and materials now - perfection has been attained.

[AzteCypher]

To me multitools have passed their zenith. We reached the optimal form. We're now either refining or adding status to the product; or hyping refinement in order to keep the consumer jumping.

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.  I feel like a lot of things have reached their zenith in terms of practicality and usage.  From multitools, to phones, to cars, to appliances they've all reached their zenith.  I don't need a screen on my refrigerator to tell me what's inside.  I don't need my washing machine to phone home to the mother ship to let me know that it's running out of detergent.  And I sure as smurf don't need my car driving me to my destination.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm a sucker for the next new shiny thing plenty of times, but that's just for the sake of collecting.  The older I've gotten though, the more I think it through and ask myself what am I truly going to do with said item, how much will I truly enjoy it, and does it truly speak to me?

All the above being said, I'm tempted to pick up a new Synergy because I find the look interesting, and because I'd like to test it out.  After others have bought it and given their opinions of it though.

This is a good thought provoking conversation.  I like it.

[Vidar]

I'll be rambling brain drops all over - apologies in advance!

To me this is a bit similar to old discussion of spending time and money to try new ways and things, or just sticking with the way it has always been done because that just works. There are good arguments for both. Different needs, perceived costs and risks, and attitudes of people will tend to sway them one direction or the other. I believe we need both established solutions and a constant innovating probing to do or make better in the future. Many new efforts will fail, a few will make it. (Indeed if that is not the case then one can argue they weren't all that innovative but rather just minor adjustments).

My experience is that the old ways and designs tend to have lots of inertia to them. Often for good reasons, but sometimes just because people don't like change as such. Thus sometimes the old ways get in the way of actual improvements or necessary change. That goes not only for products and designs but for many facets of life and society in general.

I believe most innovation is still left to do. In a geological timescale we are likely still primitive and maybe just some bits up from knocking rocks together. And in a more practical lifetime perspective I feel innovation is moving faster and faster in so many fields. Granted, for hardware tools in general, which mostly works with classic materials and methods, innovation seem to move slower. These tools have already been optimized for a long time towards use cases that haven't changed much. But even if they are indeed perfect designs for todays manufacturing processes, materials and use cases time will move on - what is perfect today is likely not perfect in the future.

Technical standardization (ISO, ANSI, DIN etc) and regulations are a brake and a blessing. While not all apply to multi-tools they proliferate in many other product areas. Standards have many important positive effects, but one negative is that it tends to lock down technology to whatever the level was available at the time of standardization. Standards for some common hand tools are over 100 years by now.

During these 100 years materials, manufacturing processes and design tools have made it possible to make reasonably priced designs and solutions they couldn't imagine back then. Thus if said tools were to be made from scratch today they would be different - and better. Likewise looking forwards I think there will equally be new processes, materials and design tools in the next 100 years that will fuel new possibilities, designs and innovations. So I believe most of all human innovation to be done is still ahead of us.

Innovation necessity has many layers so who is to decide what is important for others? As long as a product has been truthfully presented I assume any buyer who pays the asking price finds it worthwhile for them. Otherwise why buy?  Different people might have other priorities and choices than me, but I find it hard to say that products that they find interesting or better is exploiting the market. Functionally better?  Easier to carry? Less expensive or more profitable? A better gift? Talking point? Matches their outfit? If they buy a new thing rather than the old then some improvement or innovation might be claimed?

We humans buy in mysterious ways, and while I don't think color changes or minor adjustments are really innovative that is just my definition. If it hits home for someone else, and they buy because of it, maybe they think otherwise about it?

As Joanie Mitchel sang: On and on it goes, we dont know what we've got till its gone...

To me innovation doesn't imply leaving old well working solutions behind. If a product is profitable and works that tends to stay around. The big line designs of SAKs and plier based multitools which have evolved over decades show that. Some models have hardly changed much at all over the years and are still in sale while other models have come and gone. Some of which are gone would be nice to still have around, but if they weren't profitable on their own then they likely wouldn't be around whether new models were made or not? (Granted some companies practices forced product range renewal so that a certain percentage of their product range will always be taken out of rotation and replaced with something new).

Anyway, I've rambled enough. For now    

[Farmer X]

There's been a few threads questioning a lack of innovation from Victorinox (oh the heresy  ) and the multi tool manufacturers,  but how much innovation do we really need or want?

I guess some innovation is necessary up to a point, if only to justify production of new products. But Victorinox is losing me with their latest. I do find it telling that not only have there been multiple lamentations about the lack of 84mm scissors on this board, but I've also seen such utterances on Reddit. Just goes to show that you can't please all the people all of the time, especially when you're running a large profit-driven enterprise.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I consider the ST300 and Rebar about as close to perfect as you're gonna find in Leatherman's current offerings. And those are not at all innovative tools. None of the tools are accessible from the outside. They are subject to clumping when you deploy them. Yet the Rebar and ST300 have what I consider the perfect loadout for a PB multi. And they're just about the perfect tools for a tradesman. I wonder how many tradesmen will use an Arc or a Wave Alpha in the course of their work.

Gerber wasn't afraid to take risks on tools that were (and, in many cases, are) different or just plain "out there." That's good from the perspective of the collector in me. But as regards users, I want something that just plain works for my needs.

In summary, innovation is good and necessary up to a point. But there are a good many users whose needs are met perfectly without the latest innovations. I'm one of 'em.

I don't think color changes or minor adjustments are really innovative.

Though a new color that I find appealing, plastered on a tool I consider solid, could get me to make a purchase.

[Vidar]

Though a new color that I find appealing, plastered on a tool I consider solid, could get me to make a purchase.

It is hard to define innovation.

Back in the day venture and angel investors had rough definition that a truly innovative solution should be at least 10x better. (Which is hard to imagine in a field like tools - and not so hard to imagine in the crazy tumbler related to computing and internet). And further, that 80-90% of truly innovative efforts were expected to fail. (Which I personally hope includes internet connected dish washers, fridges, and power tools.  I even remember the days when a simple printer would actually just print. These days the printers are totally safe because no matter what I do they refuse to print anything at all - but I digress..). 

Other seems to put the definition much lower. A practical definition might be anything that could get a utility patent as that requires a minimum of innovation height.

[Vidar]

I did it again. 

[powernoodle]

To me multitools have passed their zenith. We reached the optimal form. We're now either refining or adding status to the product; or hyping refinement in order to keep the consumer jumping.

I agree fully with this.  Its not the fault of the manufacturers.  Its just reality.  IMO, no manufacturer can surpass the Swisstool/Spirit/Core/Blast/Fuse/ST300/Rebar/Juice/Squirt, except to make the ST300 and Rebar outside opening.

But there is also marketing, which demands something "new" from time to time, to keep the consumers' interest.  The problem is that there is not much left that can be new.  Look at the Wave Alpha.  Same tools, different recipe.  They say the consumers have been begging for MagnaCut, but we know better.  Hey, lets put some G10 on there! 

Again, I'm not blaming Leatherman or the other manufacturers so much as I am recognizing that the MT world peaked some time ago.  Magnets and MagnaCut are just different herbs in the same crock pot. 

At twice the price.

[Vidar]

Its just reality.  IMO, no manufacturer can surpass the Swisstool/Spirit/Core/Blast/Fuse/ST300/Rebar/Juice/Squirt, except to make the ST300 and Rebar outside opening.

I have to disagree. I believe there will be better build quality, better functionality, lighter, sturdier and less expensive version of the above tool design style. I think there are just too many areas that can be improved for already claiming perfection. Now, firmly standing on the toes of giants, I can't really see far enough into the future to detail exactly how. But I don't see any reason why multitools should be the odd exception in the overall trends within manufacturing, materials, quality and costs. As a prediction lets say for example a 30-40% reduction in weight for the same functionality within the next few years. I would consider that very worthwhile functional innovation in the EDC world?

Further I'm fairly certain there will be alternative designs to the current dominating plier based model which will work better for some people or use cases. Again, the possible design space is just vast, and there is still much to explore further and develop.

[powernoodle]

Well said, sir.

SOG's compound pivot mechanism was and remains a pretty solid advancement in the Multitool Arts, but that was 1995 - 30 years ago.  I would say that was the greatest advancement maybe since the Leatherman PST was hatched.  The evolution of the Super Tool locking mechanism was certainly notable.  Outside-opening tools and replaceable cutters were good advancements, but not particularly innovative.  Leatherman added magnets to the ARC, which was a true "thinking outside the box" feature. [Though I still prefer old school deployment].

Beyond that, not a whole lot has changed since the PST.     Maybe that speaks to the excellence of the PST in the first place.

There could be other real advancements in the last 30 years - real leaps forward and not just minor tweaks to existing platforms - but I can't think of too many.

The innovation and advancement graph trended up, starting from the release of the PST at X=0, Y=0.  Where it peaked, we could debate.  For me, it was somewhere around the Blast/Spirit/ST300 epoch.  Each to his own on that one.  One could also make a strong argument that the Gen2, 2004 Wave is the king of all MTs.  That was 21 years ago.  But the trend line has almost certainly headed downhill since whenever we define its peak, at least in terms of frequency and magnitude of innovation.

So, the innovation trend line is moving sharply downward, at least in Powernoodleworld.  Could a true quantum leap occur in the industry?  Absolutely.  We would love that, of course.  But that's not where the evidence is pointing.

[nate j]

I’m holding out for a pocketable MT that features a real, functional lightsaber.

 

[pfrsantos]

I’m holding out for a pocketable MT that features a real, functional lightsaber.

 

I’m holding out for a pocketable lightsaber that features a real, functional MT.

 

[magentus]

I’m holding out for a pocketable lightsaber that features a real, functional MT.

 

I'm holding out for a light MT that features a real functional sabre

[Vidar]

SOG's compound pivot mechanism was and remains a pretty solid advancement in the Multitool Arts, but that was 1995 - 30 years ago.

Yes, for gripping that was a major improvement. Especially for gripping and cutting thin stuff. Less so for cutting thicker things as the compound action effects then ends up fighting and reducing each other.

Beyond that, not a whole lot has changed since the PST.     Maybe that speaks to the excellence of the PST in the first place.

I think it does. And I don't think there will be any major changes to that style of multitool as such, so it seems we agree there. I'll be pleased to be wrong though. To me that platform now seems like a scene for evolution and gradual improvements. Which still means there are things to improve on, (and thus not perfect), but close enough to its seeming peak potential that any major revolutions seems unlikely. That is just my take on that platform. 

So, the innovation trend line is moving sharply downward, at least in Powernoodleworld.  Could a true quantum leap occur in the industry?  Absolutely.  We would love that, of course.  But that's not where the evidence is pointing.

Yes, I think major innovation will require a shift in design platform. In various industries those tend to come out of the blue, rarely from established players, and as they are usually unfulfilled technical babies at first they often spark ridicule, disgust or other strong feelings. The more of those we get the bigger the chances something sticks around to develop into some truly new platform. I think they will come. There are just too many new options within manufacturing and materials that just wasn't there when todays platforms were made. And as for plier design a plier is basically a way to turn a long movement of little force into a short movement with lots of force. There are so many ways to do that, and multitools have just looked at a few so far.

I’m holding out for a pocketable MT that features a real, functional lightsaber.

I'll be more than happy with just a functional light saber! (I try the strategy of smaller wishes having higher chances to come through.) 

[ThundahBeagle]

I agree fully with this.  Its not the fault of the manufacturers.  Its just reality.  IMO, no manufacturer can surpass the Swisstool/Spirit/Core/Blast/Fuse/ST300/Rebar/Juice/Squirt, except to make the ST300 and Rebar outside opening.

But there is also marketing, which demands something "new" from time to time, to keep the consumers' interest.  The problem is that there is not much left that can be new.  Look at the Wave Alpha.  Same tools, different recipe.  They say the consumers have been begging for MagnaCut, but we know better.  Hey, lets put some G10 on there! 

Again, I'm not blaming Leatherman or the other manufacturers so much as I am recognizing that the MT world peaked some time ago.  Magnets and MagnaCut are just different herbs in the same crock pot. 

At twice the price.

Ask any archaeologist to see the chart of glass bottle design over the centuries.

Innovation does take time.  Battleship curves of technological adoption.  Imagine a battleship seen from above.  The western most point - the stern - is a point that represents the moment of invention or innovation of a given product design.  As more people adopt this design over time, imagine moving eastward and the battleship widens, representing a greater number of adopters of this design.

At the beam - the widest part of the ship, we see tha largest number of peole using this product.

Meanwhile,  just south of this, we see a new point and it begins to widen in use as we move eastward.  As it does, the older battleship just to the north begins to taper off towards the bow.  As the second ship reaches its largest use, a third point appears further south, and it widens as the first ship is done.  Each ship is either a slightly newer design or a brand new invention.  It could be either but it's most likely a modification on an existing design

[ThundahBeagle]

We could see a "channel locks" design, but that would be too bulky. We saw the "vice grips" variation, and it was popular. Just not popular enough.  Weve seen the snub nose and even the blast cap crimper.  Weve seen PST handles to Blast inserts, to a slight roll in the steel for the Rebar amd now to G10. Weve seen outside tool development and even half tools.  That's mostly the last 20 years. I think things will keep on this way and the good stuff sticks

[lister]

What we I need is something from victorinox along the lines of Leatherman Juice + alox + (maybe: t-shank holder) + (maybe: powerpint style hex bit holder).

[Richard Zheng]

Once we reach the point where a multitool has the build quality and ergonomics of a swisstool spirit and the one handed operation of the arc, and the modularity of the flex, we will be "done" with innovating.

[madfishcat]

Once we reach the point where a multitool has the build quality and ergonomics of a swisstool spirit and the one handed operation of the arc, and the modularity of the flex, we will be "done" with innovating.

[BPRoberts]

I liked that Leatherman started putting hammers on their tools. That was a good, and relatively recent, innovation that I'd like to see become standard. I hit stuff with my MT on occasion, and it's nice to have a designated spot for it that (shouldn't) break and is easy to use.

[Richard Zheng]

I liked that Leatherman started putting hammers on their tools. That was a good, and relatively recent, innovation that I'd like to see become standard. I hit stuff with my MT on occasion, and it's nice to have a designated spot for it that (shouldn't) break and is easy to use.

I love that feature of my arc, P2, and goat tool

Its just really nice to have something that you can use to hammer something into place.

You probably shouldnt use too much force on the hammers, but I have absolutely slammed my arc a ton and its been perfectly fine

[ToolJoe]

An LM Rebar with outside access tools would be a nice concept..

[Richard Zheng]

An LM Rebar with outside access tools would be a nice concept..

That is basically the swisstool spirit, right?

[kirk13]

Can I just say how much I've enjoyed this thread?

I have spent far too much time on social media where thing decent into mud slinging from the get go. All the replies here have been thought out, made respectfully, and kept a conversation running. What a pleasure!

[Vidar]

I have spent far too much time on social media where thing decent into mud slinging from the get go. All the replies here have been thought out, made respectfully, and kept a conversation running. What a pleasure!

I credit a lot that with the positive forum culture grown and protected by this forums well balanced owner, admins and moderators. That is a social art and a work effort most social media and other forums I've visited often sorely lack. So thanks for that!

When social media started appearing back in the 90s I had a talk with a social anthropologist (or something to that end) who specialized in online communities and psychology. Back then it was a common misconception that you were anonymous online. Some people behaved very differently online and "anonymous" than they ever would actually facing anyone or in front of their friends or family. Which made him wonder which personality was the most true? The unhinged "anonymous" one, or the one constrained by real life social frameworks. Or maybe both, in the sense that personality could be a range rather than a single spot on a spectrum.

Anyway, as for multitool innovations I think it could also be helpful to compare multi-tools with their various specialized tool counterparts. Specialized tools for a given task is generally better at it than a multi-tool that has to balance the often conflicting requirements of many tools at once. To the degree there is a functional difference there is room for improvement and innovation.

So for instance pliers: Specialized pliers have more ergonomic handles with bent handles, often rubber coated and rounded edges. The plier heads have differently designed cutters than multi-tools, can have other style grips, and toughness and heat treatment can be superior. And to me replaceable cutters on multi-tools often seems like an easy cop-out rather than doing a proper quality cutter head in the first place.

I have cutting pliers that for years and without issue have cut hard tough materials where just trying a single cut would mess up multi-tool cutters. I have indeed tried and notched many multi-tools. The damaged cutters can be replaced, but the task at hand would still remain unsolved. In the multi-tool world improved plier heads would be a worthwhile evolution/ innovation in my book.

 

[Richard Zheng]

I credit a lot that with the positive forum culture grown and protected by this forums well balanced owner, admins and moderators. That is a social art and a work effort most social media and other forums I've visited often sorely lack. So thanks for that!

When social media started appearing back in the 90s I had a talk with a social anthropologist (or something to that end) who specialized in online communities and psychology. Back then it was a common misconception that you were anonymous online. Some people behaved very differently online and "anonymous" than they ever would actually facing anyone or in front of their friends or family. Which made him wonder which personality was the most true? The unhinged "anonymous" one, or the one constrained by real life social frameworks. Or maybe both, in the sense that personality could be a range rather than a single spot on a spectrum.

Anyway, as for multitool innovations I think it could also be helpful to compare multi-tools with their various specialized tool counterparts. Specialized tools for a given task is generally better at it than a multi-tool that has to balance the often conflicting requirements of many tools at once. To the degree there is a functional difference there is room for improvement and innovation.

So for instance pliers: Specialized pliers have more ergonomic handles with bent handles, often rubber coated and rounded edges. The plier heads have differently designed cutters than multi-tools, can have other style grips, and toughness and heat treatment can be superior. And to me replaceable cutters on multi-tools often seems like an easy cop-out rather than doing a proper quality cutter head in the first place.

I have cutting pliers that for years and without issue have cut hard tough materials where just trying a single cut would mess up multi-tool cutters. I have indeed tried and notched many multi-tools. The damaged cutters can be replaced, but the task at hand would still remain unsolved. In the multi-tool world improved plier heads would be a worthwhile evolution/ innovation in my book.

In terms of normal pliers being more ergonomic, I think the swisstool spirit is probably the closest I have seen a multitool get to being as comfy as a set of normal pliers

Having a forged plier head vs cast would also be a significant upgrade.

AFAIK, only Dakoyu offers a punched and CNCed plier head, and all other plier heads are cast and significantly weaker.

I think more companies could definitely go the route of having a CNCed plier head in combination with the handle shape and ergonomics of the swisstool spirit and roxon flex

[tosh]

I agree that the  MT era seems to be over
Those guys that started it all those years ago have mostly either sold out, closed down, stepped aside.
The early complex radical innovations to prevent fringing others patents showed some truly incredible engineering feats. But that’s what competition does… it forces all parties to up their game…

Now it’s over, gimmicks and snazzy colour schemes seem to be  what separates.

I’m so thankful I built my collection back when  MT’s and SAKs were both plentiful and relatively cheap and moreover buying and posting was  simpler.

It would quite literally be almost impossible to build my collection today. If we’d known how things would turn out, we’d have bought  more I’m sure.

LM leaves me stone cold these days, just male jewellery, Gerber never quite hit the mark for me, older SOGs were plagued by weak plier jaws that often broke if stressed too hard, Bear Jaws were intriguing but I never saw them as a real alternative to the bigger brand names

Wenger… 12yrs on and I still can’t believe the brand has gone…. Boy did I love Wenger

Victorinox… the sheer arrogance of that company infuriates me, they always seem aloof to their customers. I view the brand  like I view aristocracy years back when they’d toss bread to peasants as they whizzed by in their six horse driven carriages - completely alienated from harsh realities but enjoy having the upper hand.

I find them revolting and so wish Wenger had been sold to CRKT or similar- that really would have stirred the pot!!

[Vidar]

In terms of normal pliers being more ergonomic, I think the swisstool spirit is probably the closest I have seen a multitool get to being as comfy as a set of normal pliers

Having a forged plier head vs cast would also be a significant upgrade.

AFAIK, only Dakoyu offers a punched and CNCed plier head, and all other plier heads are cast and significantly weaker.

I think more companies could definitely go the route of having a CNCed plier head in combination with the handle shape and ergonomics of the swisstool spirit and roxon flex

There are many ways of making a plier head, but few I've looked at look like straight castings. As many of these pliers are fairly thick (in sheet metal terms) punching is relatively expensive, and forming a 3D head from that resulting 2D part would either take some serious forging steps or relatively slow and expensive CNC machining with lots of material waste scrap leftover. So I get why punching and CNC machining is not used. In volume equal results can be made faster and less expensive in other ways. (CNC machining from stock would also be less strong than forging).

My understanding is that casting is used to make a rough shape optimized for forging, and then it is forged one way or another to the almost final shape. Some minor adjustments, grinding clean up, heat treatment and surface treatments might follow. Forging will increase the hardness and strength, so a rough shape that require a fair bit of forging to reach final shape would improve on the initial casts properties. Lots of forging also causes less ductility/ more brittleness though so then heat treatment to get right material property balance might be needed too. On the flip side less forging is of less expensive, and might need no or less heat treatment after, so maybe they just make the casting rough as almost final shape already. Classic cost vs quality.

There are many kinds of forging too with various pro and cons. I think casting rough, and forging from there, can give anything from great quality to mediocre - to me it seems more about how the process is done rather than the choice of process.

That said, rather than starting with a close shape casting one could start with round stock material and take it from there with forging. I assume they have found that close shape casting costs less than initial forging from stock to reach the same state. I believe that latter could give a tougher and stronger product though.

Anyway, certainly also an arena with potential innovations, although less visible for us end users.

[Richard Zheng]

There are many ways of making a plier head, but few I've looked at look like straight castings. As many of these pliers are fairly thick (in sheet metal terms) punching is relatively expensive, and forming a 3D head from that resulting 2D part would either take some serious forging steps or relatively slow and expensive CNC machining with lots of material waste scrap leftover. So I get why punching and CNC machining is not used. In volume equal results can be made faster and less expensive in other ways. (CNC machining from stock would also be less strong than forging).

My understanding is that casting is used to make a rough shape optimized for forging, and then it is forged one way or another to the almost final shape. Some minor adjustments, grinding clean up, heat treatment and surface treatments might follow. Forging will increase the hardness and strength, so a rough shape that require a fair bit of forging to reach final shape would improve on the initial casts properties. Lots of forging also causes less ductility/ more brittleness though so then heat treatment to get right material property balance might be needed too. On the flip side less forging is of less expensive, and might need no or less heat treatment after, so maybe they just make the casting rough as almost final shape already. Classic cost vs quality.

There are many kinds of forging too with various pro and cons. I think casting rough, and forging from there, can give anything from great quality to mediocre - to me it seems more about how the process is done rather than the choice of process.

That said, rather than starting with a close shape casting one could start with round stock material and take it from there with forging. I assume they have found that close shape casting costs less than initial forging from stock to reach the same state. I believe that latter could give a tougher and stronger product though.

Anyway, certainly also an arena with potential innovations, although less visible for us end users.

Honestly there are extremely cheap forged pliers out there.

Gerber found a way around thaat by duct taping a bunch of smaller plates together to get the desired thickness.

I know a lot of Made in China pliers that use forged plier heads as well

I think if companies want to use forged plier heads in multitools, it is going to have to be made in china or be extremely cost-prohibitive

Casting's main advantages are that it is cheaper for low-volume production, which multitools definitely are.

I think the next big step is whichever company finds a way to put a CNCed plier head into a tool with mass market appeal

[Vidar]

Gerber found a way around thaat by duct taping a bunch of smaller plates together to get the desired thickness.

Interesting. Are we talking about the tools made by riveting plates together, or do they somehow weld those plates together afterwards?

I know a lot of Made in China pliers that use forged plier heads as well

I would totally expect that. Forging is not very expensive for small parts.

There are lots of manufacturing and pure forging companies outside of China that are competitive, and price is just one of the competitive factors. And even for pure price there is also the factor that the same production machines cost roughly the same all over the world. And as those machine processes can be quite automated costs like wages can be reduced to a small share of the overall production costs. Your mileage might vary, but I know and use companies in Europe which make our custom parts for less than the Chinese quotes for same. And that is even before considering freight costs and time. Granted, those are the exceptions, and many times China offers are better. However they do show it is possible and worthwhile to check out "western" alternatives.

China  is not all about price by the way. They are usually very easy and professional to deal with, and even huge companies are often willing to try and work with you to try out new concepts even in low volume. That is not easy with many European companies who typically require order sizes and volumes that excludes small test series or niche products. (Which also means that when any of those low volume tests turns into a winner the production will already be with the Chinese. I think they have a good long term strategy there).

I seem to view CNC machining somewhat differently than you. I don't see it adding anything that any other manufacturing process which reach the same geometry does. It is relatively expensive, time consuming and material wasting. That is my experience anyway. I generally try to design to avoid or reduce the need for CNC machining. (If we talk CNC machines outside of machining, then certainly as most manufacturing processes are computerized these days - and thus also what is already used by just about everyone. Certainly by the Chinese).