Multitool.org Forum
Tool Talk => Swiss Army Knights Forum => Topic started by: ulli on February 01, 2014, 09:04:55 PM
-
Here`s my compilation of victorinox tang stamps used for pocket knives. Some dates are not very clear (ca.) and I`m sure there are some tang stamps I don`t know yet. So it would be cool if you could help me finish the compilation with informations of other tang stamps and exact dates when they were produced.
(http://de.myalbum.com/GroteFoto-WJQQEXZ6.jpg)
Moderator Edit - Jul 2022
The latest version of the spreadsheet discussed in this thread can be found here:
https://elsinox.com/Praegestempel/Tang-Stamps-Dating-Tool/
Thanks Ulli and Elsinox
-
Do you have a hi-res version of this?
-
Ulli, it seems you posed a thumbnail of the tang stamp picture. While it appears to be much more detailed than the ones we have here it's hard to see in this size.
-
I have hi res pic, but don`t know how to insert it.
-
(http://de.myalbum.com/GroteFoto-84CCURGD.jpg)
-
I have hi res pic, but don`t know how to insert it.
Click Reply, + Attachments and other options, Choose File (add the picture) and Post.
Or you can email it to me and I'll add it.
-
(http://de.myalbum.com/GroteFoto-W7DNF7AP.jpg)
-
:wait:
-
Thanks, Ulli. :cheers:
If you can attach it later on, that would be great (the small print under the stamps isn't quite visible) but it's already helped with identifying an old pruner knife with the house tang stamp as on, 43-51. :hatsoff:
Odd victoria tang stamp (http://forum.multitool.org/index.php?topic=47131.0)
-
This looks like a very nice compilation. We definetly need a better picture. :salute: :salute: :salute:
-
Looks like a lot of good info there. Unfortunately my old eyes can't read half of it. A better shot please.
-
Great compilation :tu:
-
A very useful thing. In fact, could have used a bigger picture.
-
:salute:very detail, very useful. there are so many stamps never seen yet.
-
Thanks that will come in handy.
Swiss Army knives .
-
Ok that should be bigger...
-
Yes, that's much better! And the other part?
BTW are you Dutch?
-
There`s only one part :-)
No I`m not dutch.
-
Much better. :cheers: Danke.
I've never seen the Victorinox + shield stamp you show as 2013 -
What models have you encountered it on?
Also there are a few newer ones missing. After 2005 there are in fact 3 different tang stamps. Big V with smaller stamp, Big V with bigger stamp and V the same size as all the other letters.
(http://sakinfo.com/bbsimg/ModernTangStamps.jpg)
More info here --> http://forum.multitool.org/index.php?topic=46739
-
Brilliant information! Thanks for posting. :tu:
-
Oh thanks I see the difference indeed. I`ll change it in my compilation.
The 2013 tang is from the hunter pro.
-
Ok that should be bigger...
:tu: Super! :salute:
You have made a great start on this important topic. :cheers:
-
thank you @ulli :salute: :tu:
-
I've never seen the Victorinox + shield stamp you show as 2013 -
What models have you encountered it on?
I would say that is the Hunter Pro: http://forum.multitool.org/index.php?topic=49716.0
And to ulli: Welcome to the forum and thank you for this handy guide! :salute:
Edit: Sorry, I somehow missed your answer!
-
Thank you for the excellent source of information. :) I think I ask on behalf of everyone if you'd give permission to have the picture mirrored on SAKwiki for others to see.
-
You can use the picture for sakwiki, no problem. But the compilation isn`t finished. There are some more tang stamps I`m sure and some dates are not very clear.
-
Hi Ulli
Awesome job buddy - How did you do that ??
Thanks so much this will certainly help me.
BTW - What do the reference numbers on top of the stamps mean please?
ie C3, D5, A6 etc
Cheers
-
The reference-numbers are just one possibility to make a classification. A-Numbers are for tangs with "elsener", B-Number for "victoria"-stamps and so on. Now you can show how the stamps are put together on a specific knife. For example the V1 stamp can appear on the front of the mainblade or on the screwdriver in an angle of 90 degrees. The stamp can be as a single stamp on the knife, but also together with other stamps on the back of the mainblade, as for example with the D1 stamp, but never together with a B2. Hope you understand how it works :-)
-
OK - I did not get it at first - But after studying the chart again now I do!
For the identifier on the top (eg A1) - the letter indicates the main feature/word of the stamp.
The number the sequence number for that tang stamp type...
- A - Elsener
- B - Victoria
- C - Victorinox
- D - Jnoxyd
- F - Elinox
- H - Swiss Made with Stainless?? - Not sure on that one - and why is this different to W and what about H1?? :)
- P - Officier and Crossbow
- Q - Numbers
- U - Patents
- W - Swiss made
For the three lines below the stamp
- Indicates the year
- Indicates where the stamp is located: MB = Main blade; CO = Can opener; f = front; b = back - etc
- Indicates the other stamps (on the chart) with which this stamp appears
Sorry I felt I had to explain this as I was puzzling over it!!
It may help others :)
And an even more brilliant piece of work now I get it!! Thanks again..... :salute:
A small suggestion - If you are still working on this ......
Why not make the identification letter match the stamp eg:
- Elr - Elsener
- Va - Victoria
- Vx - Victorinox
- J - Jnoxyd
- Ex - Elinox
- SM - Swiss Made with Stainless??
- O CB - Officier and Crossbow
- # - Numbers
- Pat - Patents
- SM - Swiss made
Or such like - Just an idea - I have something similar where I record the tang stamps in my collection database!!
Although I have about 5% of the ones you have, and only had a vague idea on dates!!
-
I`m still working on it. Already made some changes.
Thank you for your suggestion. During the classification, I found some new tang stamps and had to make some changes. Its a hell of work. If you change one tang and give it another number, you have to change multiple other numbers too, so I left it the way I started.
Maybe one day, I`ll change the whole system to make it easier to understand :-)
There are some reference stamps, and some other groups of stamps, they appear only with a specific reference stamp, never alone, like all the patent stamps.
-
Much better. :cheers: Danke.
I've never seen the Victorinox + shield stamp you show as 2013 -
What models have you encountered it on?
Also there are a few newer ones missing. After 2005 there are in fact 3 different tang stamps. Big V with smaller stamp, Big V with bigger stamp and V the same size as all the other letters.
(http://sakinfo.com/bbsimg/ModernTangStamps.jpg)
More info here --> http://forum.multitool.org/index.php?topic=46739
Are you sure the first stamp is 2004? I thought the four-line stamp (w/ Rostfrei on the fourth line and V of Victorinox same height as the other letters) ended around 1984 (ulli gives 1986).
Good work, ulli ! I think tho that a couple of the dates could be modified - US PAT PEND on the can opener only for a couple years - 1951 (when the arc-style opener appears) to 1953 (when the patent was approved and PAT appears) - and PAT from 1953 to 1973 (when the 20-year Swiss patent expired). The ending date for the Elinox stamps is about 1978.
-
Are you sure the first stamp is 2004? I thought the four-line stamp (w/ Rostfrei on the fourth line and V of Victorinox same height as the other letters) ended around 1984 (ulli gives 1986).
Good work, ulli ! I think tho that a couple of the dates could be modified - US PAT PEND on the can opener only for a couple years - 1951 (when the arc-style opener appears) to 1953 (when the patent was approved and PAT appears) - and PAT from 1953 to 1973 (when the 20-year Swiss patent expired). The ending date for the Elinox stamps is about 1978.
That's my picture, and the first knife there is definitely from 2004. In fact, it's not stated on that image but the topic of that thread was "thin tang (2.0mm) 91mm tang stamps", so that first stamp is from a 2004/5 2.0mm blade. If you look at the image above, the 2004 stamp does have the large V. The "large" V stamp does start in 1986 (battle series knives are the best to show this), so the date ranges for the 91mm stamps are basically:
1974-1986: VSSR/OS, small "V"
1986-2005: VSSR/OS, Large "V"
2005-2011: VSS/OS, Large "V"
2011+ : VSS/OS, small "V"
-
Are you sure the first stamp is 2004? I thought the four-line stamp (w/ Rostfrei on the fourth line and V of Victorinox same height as the other letters) ended around 1984 (ulli gives 1986).
Good work, ulli ! I think tho that a couple of the dates could be modified - US PAT PEND on the can opener only for a couple years - 1951 (when the arc-style opener appears) to 1953 (when the patent was approved and PAT appears) - and PAT from 1953 to 1973 (when the 20-year Swiss patent expired). The ending date for the Elinox stamps is about 1978.
That's my picture, and the first knife there is definitely from 2004. In fact, it's not stated on that image but the topic of that thread was "thin tang (2.0mm) 91mm tang stamps", so that first stamp is from a 2004/5 2.0mm blade. If you look at the image above, the 2004 stamp does have the large V. The "large" V stamp does start in 1986 (battle series knives are the best to show this), so the date ranges for the 91mm stamps are basically:
1974-1986: VSSR/OS, small "V"
1986-2005: VSSR/OS, Large "V"
2005-2011: VSS/OS, Large "V"
2011+ : VSS/OS, small "V"
@jazzbass, you have done so much I hate to ask, but can you give a side by side picture showing the the 1974-1986 and the 1986-2005? I think a visual will be a huge help to me, and maybe others
Thank you very much
-
Are you sure the first stamp is 2004? I thought the four-line stamp (w/ Rostfrei on the fourth line and V of Victorinox same height as the other letters) ended around 1984 (ulli gives 1986).
Good work, ulli ! I think tho that a couple of the dates could be modified - US PAT PEND on the can opener only for a couple years - 1951 (when the arc-style opener appears) to 1953 (when the patent was approved and PAT appears) - and PAT from 1953 to 1973 (when the 20-year Swiss patent expired). The ending date for the Elinox stamps is about 1978.
That's my picture, and the first knife there is definitely from 2004. In fact, it's not stated on that image but the topic of that thread was "thin tang (2.0mm) 91mm tang stamps", so that first stamp is from a 2004/5 2.0mm blade. If you look at the image above, the 2004 stamp does have the large V. The "large" V stamp does start in 1986 (battle series knives are the best to show this), so the date ranges for the 91mm stamps are basically:
1974-1986: VSSR/OS, small "V"
1986-2005: VSSR/OS, Large "V"
2005-2011: VSS/OS, Large "V"
2011+ : VSS/OS, small "V"
@jazzbass, you have done so much I hate to ask, but can you give a side by side picture showing the the 1974-1986 and the 1986-2005? I think a visual will be a huge help to me, and maybe others
Thank you very much
You can look at Uli's picture C8 vs. C5 I think that's what you're asking for.
-
Are you sure the first stamp is 2004? I thought the four-line stamp (w/ Rostfrei on the fourth line and V of Victorinox same height as the other letters) ended around 1984 (ulli gives 1986).
Good work, ulli ! I think tho that a couple of the dates could be modified - US PAT PEND on the can opener only for a couple years - 1951 (when the arc-style opener appears) to 1953 (when the patent was approved and PAT appears) - and PAT from 1953 to 1973 (when the 20-year Swiss patent expired). The ending date for the Elinox stamps is about 1978.
I believe you are correct, and thanks! that makes it easier to understand
That's my picture, and the first knife there is definitely from 2004. In fact, it's not stated on that image but the topic of that thread was "thin tang (2.0mm) 91mm tang stamps", so that first stamp is from a 2004/5 2.0mm blade. If you look at the image above, the 2004 stamp does have the large V. The "large" V stamp does start in 1986 (battle series knives are the best to show this), so the date ranges for the 91mm stamps are basically:
1974-1986: VSSR/OS, small "V"
1986-2005: VSSR/OS, Large "V"
2005-2011: VSS/OS, Large "V"
2011+ : VSS/OS, small "V"
@jazzbass, you have done so much I hate to ask, but can you give a side by side picture showing the the 1974-1986 and the 1986-2005? I think a visual will be a huge help to me, and maybe others
Thank you very much
You can look at Uli's picture C8 vs. C5 I think that's what you're asking for.
-
@jazzbass, you have done so much I hate to ask, but can you give a side by side picture showing the the 1974-1986 and the 1986-2005? I think a visual will be a huge help to me, and maybe others
Do these help?
The back side picture shows the 75-86 and 86-05 stamp on the left (same stamp I think for the two periods) then the 2005+ stamp on the right
The front side picture shows the 75-86 stamp on the left, then 86-05, then 05-11, then 11+
Post updated with much better second photo.
BTW - I had no idea how hard it is to take these close up photos - Hats off to all you MTo and Wiki guys for all your work :salute:
... so the date ranges for the 91mm stamps are basically:
1974-1986: VSSR/OS, small "V"
1986-2005: VSSR/OS, Large "V"
2005-2011: VSS/OS, Large "V"
2011+ : VSS/OS, small "V"
Thanks for this - already copied into my SAK database :)
But I would change your table slightly as follows:
1974-1986 VSSR/+CB OS Small "V"
1986-2005 VSSR/+CB OS Large "V"
2005-2011 VSS/OS Large "V"
2011+ VSS/OS Small "V"
Where of course +CB is the 'plus' sign (presumably a Swiss Cross) and the Crossbow emblem
-
@jazzbass, you have done so much I hate to ask, but can you give a side by side picture showing the the 1974-1986 and the 1986-2005? I think a visual will be a huge help to me, and maybe others
Do these help?
Left sides of course have the earlier stamps
BTW - I had no idea how hard it is to take these close up photos - Hats off to all you MTo and Wiki guys for all your work :salute:
... so the date ranges for the 91mm stamps are basically:
1974-1986: VSSR/OS, small "V"
1986-2005: VSSR/OS, Large "V"
2005-2011: VSS/OS, Large "V"
2011+ : VSS/OS, small "V"
Thanks for this - already copied into my SAK database :)
But I would change your table slightly as follows:
1974-1986 VSSR/+CB OS Small "V"
1986-2005 VSSR/+CB OS Large "V"
2005-2011 VSS/OS Large "V"
2011+ VSS/OS Small "V"
Where of course +CB is the 'plus' sign (presumably a Swiss Cross) and the Crossbow emblem
thanks, that is a huge help! :salute:
-
thanks, that is a huge help! :salute:
Cheers - Just added a much better second (front side) photo showing all four front side stamps since 76 - See my post above
I hope I got this right - I'm still a newbie compared to most of you guys out there!!
-
thanks, that is a huge help! :salute:
Cheers - Just added a much better second (front side) photo showing all four front side stamps since 76 - See my post above
I hope I got this right - I'm still a newbie compared to most of you guys out there!!
Close. What you list as the "05-11" stamp is really the 09-11 stamp. While the words are the same as the 05-09 stamp, if you see my pic above you can see that the relative size of the words are different and there is a little more tracking (space between letters) in the 09-11 stamp.
-
I made some changes, here is the newest compilation.
Some differences are very small, for example between the H3 and the H5 stamp. This is a compilation for all sort of victorinox pocket knives, not only for the 91 mm. So the crowbow does not appear on soldiers. The tang stamp C5 (Vsssr) was used for the soldiers until 2008, but maybe disappeared on the 91 mm earlier. The U3 stamp (+ PAT) surely was only used until 1971. I have soldiers from this year with the stamp and without the stamp, and never seen a soldier after 1971 with the stamp.
By the way, how was the tang stamp between 1952 and 1974?
-
What year is this? Same blade front and back. I see now the V is the same size so around 1970.
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll211/gigahzfemtohz/tang027_zps5a1585eb.jpg) (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/gigahzfemtohz/media/tang027_zps5a1585eb.jpg.html)
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll211/gigahzfemtohz/tang028_zpsabf02764.jpg) (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/gigahzfemtohz/media/tang028_zpsabf02764.jpg.html)
-
Between 1968 and 1974.
-
Between 1968 and 1974.
Thank you
40's?
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll211/gigahzfemtohz/tangold001_zps227d5eeb.jpg) (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/gigahzfemtohz/media/tangold001_zps227d5eeb.jpg.html)
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll211/gigahzfemtohz/tangold002_zps71635abf.jpg) (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/gigahzfemtohz/media/tangold002_zps71635abf.jpg.html)
-
Yes between 1943 and ca. 1950. This elsener schwyz swiss made is a really rare tang stamp, not often used.
-
Is there a can opener on that knife and if there is, what kind kind of?
-
Is there a can opener on that knife and if there is, what kind kind of?
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll211/gigahzfemtohz/oldknife003_zps484ab221.jpg) (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/gigahzfemtohz/media/oldknife003_zps484ab221.jpg.html)
-
What year is this? Same blade front and back. I see now the V is the same size so around 1970.
Between 1968 and 1974.
Actually, this stamp (VxSSR/VOS) is the standard stamp from 1957 to 1974 on both 84mm and 91mm knives. 1957 is the change point from the exposed rivet design to the hidden rivet design (see below), and there is some cross over during the transition. Earlier exposed rivet knives typically has VxSS/VO stamps, and you see some of these on the earliest hidden rivet knives. Here's one of the last hidden rivet/large awl knives dated 1963 where you can see the VxSSR/VOS stamp in use:
(http://sakinfo.com/bbsimg/mvnttourist.jpg)
Yes between 1943 and ca. 1950. This elsener schwyz swiss made is a really rare tang stamp, not often used.
The Elsner Schwyz Swiss Made stamp really appears mostly around the 1944/1947 era when they transitioned from the original style can opener to the crab claw style used until 1952, so you see it show up on both styles of knife (see below). They show up on about 10% of the knives from these eras, always around the 1946 transition, always stamped on the reverse with "Inoxyd", and always with the "Swiss Made" on the cap lifter. The similar (and more rare) "Elsener Switzerland Stainless" also appears around the same time with the same features. One thing I have noticed, albeit with a small sample size, is that Elsener Schwyz stamped blades from the mid 40s are thinner than the more common "Armee Suisse/Inoxyd" blades, at least for the 91mm - 2.4mm at the tang vs 2.7mm which was standard at the time. The handmade nature of knives during this time make it difficult to say that it was intentional or just manufacturing variance.
(http://sakinfo.com/bbsimg/essm.jpg)
-
Ok thats the old can opener, as I thought. That mean its before 1951 when the new can opener appeared. So you can date a knife not only from the stamps, but also from the tools. Special is the "swiss made" stamp on the bottle opener. I`ve never seen the combination of these 3 tang stamps together before, so its a new combination that I added to my compilation. Thats a really cool knife, even if the main blade was sharpened many times.
-
Awesome your knives @jazzbass and very useful infos!
What I don`t really understand is the reason they changed the tang stamps so many times. For brand marketing its the worst thing you can do!
I do understand the change from elsener to victoria, that was an emotional thing. And all the "inox" stamps were normal at that time.
But what was the reason for all the other tang stamps? Maybe when the son took over the company from his father, he changed also the brand names. Or the tang stams define some markets they were produced for or a specific tang stamp for a specific size of pocket knives.
At the beginning, victorinox used french tang stamps like all the jnoxyd stamps. Elsener, who founded the company, learned knife-maker in france. Maybe that was the reason why. The english stamps appeared later, could be because of the open market to UK and US. Today in middle europe, its difficult to find pocket knives with english tang stamps. So maybe all this "swiss made" and "switzerland" thing was made for the markets in US and UK. Very special is the tang stamp "suisse made", a word in french and one in english. Very rare, and maybe the link between the change from french stamps to english stams :-) In 1952 they made VSSR as the standard tang stamp, reduction of comlexity. But the elinox line makes no sense to me, i think that was a failure, so they changed it back some years later. But the change of tang stamps the last few years, no idea why they did that...
-
That's really imppresive work you do and it's so useful! :tu:
-
Did an update on the tang stamp compilation.
-
This is great!!! Thank you!! :tu:
-
This is great!!! Thank you!! :tu:
+1. Excellent.
-
Thanks again for creating this it really is a great help :)
Any chance this could be sticked / Pinned
At least once a week I am searching for this thread
-
Thanks again for creating this it really is a great help :)
Any chance this could be sticked / Pinned
At least once a week I am searching for this thread
Print it out and keep it handy.
-
Very good idea and quite helpful to the forum.
Appreciate you taking on such a task.
:tu: :tu: :salute:
-
Did an update.
-
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
-
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
+100!!
-
That's a great job you did/are doing :tu:
But it makes me wonder, why doesn't the company itself keep track of all this? Aren't they proud of the rich history of their beloved products?
Or do they just not share this information?
-
Great stuff...this is really awesome! :2tu:
I hadn't seen this before, but what a great effort. And in reading through this thread, what great input from this global team...very cool!
Thanks! :cheers:
-
That's a great job you did/are doing :tu:
But it makes me wonder, why doesn't the company itself keep track of all this? Aren't they proud of the rich history of their beloved products?
Or do they just not share this information?
I think they just focused on the present, not the past. I saw their compilation of tang stamps, about 20 different stamps. In the past, they didn`t even have an archive. Also the books they released are really rare of informations of the past. What I heard is that the old elsener chiefs where not really interested in such things and I think they struggled a lot to keep all employees during hard times.
-
Legend! :cheers:
-
Glad I found this thread! Thanks! :like: :salute:
-
Thanks for posting the tang stamp information. :like:
-
The more I try to learn about dating SAKs, especially since the late 60's, the more I realize that the rules are very flexible. For instance, I've encountered a great number of Vic's with the small "V" but also have the half stop on the cap lifter and a hole in the reamer etc. I'm pretty sure they did this just so we could talk about it here on MTO. :ahhh :cheers:
Here are a few examples:
Tourist (70's) - Clip Point Small blade, "retired '73" w/ 1974-1986: VSSR/OS, small "V" stamp
Small Tinker (80's)- No hole in reamer, no half stop on cap lifter "retired 85" w/ 1986-2005: VSSR/OS, Large "V" stamp
Climber (80's) - Hole in reamer, half stop, grooved el corkscrew w/ 1974-1986: VSSR/OS, small "V" stamp
-
Definitely - Dating SAKs is as much an art as a science!!
Our info says the awl got it's eye and the SD its half stop in 85, and the V got big in 86
Particularly for changes that happened in consecutive years - we see SAKs that break the rules!
I think its all down to the parts bin!! ie Old style parts being used after they are 'retired'.
-
My question deleted, I see the answer in post #1 of this thread. :facepalm:
-
My question deleted, I see the answer in post #1 of this thread. :facepalm:
:rofl:
But really, you can never be sure. They stopped the exposed rivets in '61, but looking at some of the charts the stamp you referred to as '68-'74. :ahhh But it's probably more like '40-'70
-
My question deleted, I see the answer in post #1 of this thread. :facepalm:
:rofl:
But really, you can never be sure. They stopped the exposed rivets in '61, but looking at some of the charts the stamp you referred to as '68-'74. :ahhh But it's probably more like '40-'70
Thanks El C. I'll post up a photo of the knife and tang stamps once I have it in hand, probably in the vintage thread, even though it's not very vintage...50s thereabouts, I think. :think:
-
My question deleted, I see the answer in post #1 of this thread. :facepalm:
:rofl:
But really, you can never be sure. They stopped the exposed rivets in '61, but looking at some of the charts the stamp you referred to as '68-'74. :ahhh But it's probably more like '40-'70
Thanks El C. I'll post up a photo of the knife and tang stamps once I have it in hand, probably in the vintage thread, even though it's not very vintage...50s thereabouts, I think. :think:
50's is vintage to me!
For humans, I consider it as "well past vintage"... Or"old"
-
My question deleted, I see the answer in post #1 of this thread. :facepalm:
:rofl:
But really, you can never be sure. They stopped the exposed rivets in '61, but looking at some of the charts the stamp you referred to as '68-'74. :ahhh But it's probably more like '40-'70
Thanks El C. I'll post up a photo of the knife and tang stamps once I have it in hand, probably in the vintage thread, even though it's not very vintage...50s thereabouts, I think. :think:
It's a vintage one for sure... :tu:
-
Great work, thank you.
I have found two variants of "Victorinox switzerland" stamps of Dutch army knifes on one Russian gun forum. In one of them "V" is strictly above the small "s", in another one "V" is moved a bit left of it. Also there is another one "Victorinox switzerland stainless" with big "V" and two small "s".
These stamps I did not found in the table. Do you know anything about them?
Here they are:
-
Whow, thanks a lot for those tang stamps. I`ve added the two to the compilation.
Now the 3 tang stamps from the dak foto are (from left to right):
vss6 (new) - vs6 (new) - vs4
-
Many thanks for that.
Might I have some problems with my eyes, but I have not found variant "Victorinox switzerland" (it is on the center of the photo with three stamps) includes big "V" which is moved a bit left of small "s". I can see only vs4 ("Victorinox switzerland", big "V" is strictly above "s") and vs6 ("victorinox switzerland" with small "v" and small "s"). What about vs5? :)
-
Maybe I have a problem with my eyes :-) For me its a smlall v in the middle tang stamp. You don`t have a better resolution picture? I have to check the picture again when I`m at home. When Its really a big V, then I have to change the picture of vs6.
-
...For me its a smlall v in the middle tang stamp. You don`t have a better resolution picture? ...
Here it is. I found it on another site, but it is the same: shifted big "V". And as you can see, size of texts in upper and lower lines is completely difference.
-
Ok thanks a lot, I changed the compilation.
-
Thank you for this colossal work.
Another one issue. I am pretty sure that only you can understand me :) Because dating of the tools and knifes is not quite popular thing.
I have found at least two different types of the crossbow on the back side of main blade.
Type A, older: the crossbow and the cross are touching each other and the cross is a bit larger than next one;
Type B, newer: there is little space between the crossbow and the cross.
I had been using comparative analysis of internet photos and found out, that change of the stamp happened between 1992-1996. Do you have any more clear information about the year of this change?
Thank you.
-
Thank you for this colossal work.
Another one issue. I am pretty sure that only you can understand me :) Because dating of the tools and knifes is not quite popular thing.
I have found at least two different types of the crossbow on the back side of main blade.
Type A, older: the crossbow and the cross are touching each other and the cross is a bit larger than next one;
Type B, newer: there is little space between the crossbow and the cross.
I had been using comparative analysis of internet photos and found out, that change of the stamp happened between 1992-1996. Do you have any more clear information about the year of this change?
Thank you.
great info! I will have to start looking harder. to me dating a SAK is just as important as identifying them. sometimes you can really lock them down, other times it is a bigger range, but it is always a key piece of data to me.
-
Thank you for this colossal work.
Another one issue. I am pretty sure that only you can understand me :) Because dating of the tools and knifes is not quite popular thing.
I have found at least two different types of the crossbow on the back side of main blade.
Type A, older: the crossbow and the cross are touching each other and the cross is a bit larger than next one;
Type B, newer: there is little space between the crossbow and the cross.
I had been using comparative analysis of internet photos and found out, that change of the stamp happened between 1992-1996. Do you have any more clear information about the year of this change?
Thank you.
Thats an interesting observation. I have never noticed this before. I have to check some of my knives to date that better. Are you sure that the newer saks have all that tang stamp? Sometimes I think they used some tang stamp machines simultaneously.
For the older tang stamps, there are a lot more small changes or differences that I would not declare as an own stamp.
The best thing to date stamps and tools is to create a thread where everyone can post pictures of advertising-saks with dates on the scales or on the mainblades, for example the stamp "1963 - Kantonales Schützenfest Schwyz" or "1953 - 1973 SULZER AG". I think that would help the most.
-
Thats an interesting observation. I have never noticed this before. I have to check some of my knives to date that better. Are you sure that the newer saks have all that tang stamp? Sometimes I think they used some tang stamp machines simultaneously.
For the older tang stamps, there are a lot more small changes or differences that I would not declare as an own stamp.
I do follow up this issue a couple of years and I have had two border observations:
My one Climber was produced in 1992 (I confirmed this with the calendar on backside of the scale, moreower it has hook and screw on scissors) and it has Type A stamp.
Several knifes were prodused in 1996-1997 with Anniversary 1997 year on scales already have new Type B stamp.
Since that all new knives which I have seen have Type B stamp of the crossbow and all old knifes (older 1992) had old Tyle A stamp.
-
Thank you for this colossal work.
Another one issue. I am pretty sure that only you can understand me :) Because dating of the tools and knifes is not quite popular thing.
I have found at least two different types of the crossbow on the back side of main blade.
Type A, older: the crossbow and the cross are touching each other and the cross is a bit larger than next one;
Type B, newer: there is little space between the crossbow and the cross.
I had been using comparative analysis of internet photos and found out, that change of the stamp happened between 1992-1996. Do you have any more clear information about the year of this change?
Thank you.
Thats an interesting observation. I have never noticed this before. I have to check some of my knives to date that better. Are you sure that the newer saks have all that tang stamp? Sometimes I think they used some tang stamp machines simultaneously.
For the older tang stamps, there are a lot more small changes or differences that I would not declare as an own stamp.
The best thing to date stamps and tools is to create a thread where everyone can post pictures of advertising-saks with dates on the scales or on the mainblades, for example the stamp "1963 - Kantonales Schützenfest Schwyz" or "1953 - 1973 SULZER AG". I think that would help the most.
Someone please start that ☝ thread!
Seems also only earlier advertising SAKs that the logos were usually inlayed just like the cross instead of screen printing or hot stamping.
-
Thats an interesting observation. I have never noticed this before. I have to check some of my knives to date that better. Are you sure that the newer saks have all that tang stamp? Sometimes I think they used some tang stamp machines simultaneously.
For the older tang stamps, there are a lot more small changes or differences that I would not declare as an own stamp.
I do follow up this issue a couple of years and I have had two border observations:
My one Climber was produced in 1992 (I confirmed this with the calendar on backside of the scale, moreower it has hook and screw on scissors) and it has Type A stamp.
Several knifes were prodused in 1996-1997 with Anniversary 1997 year on scales already have new Type B stamp.
Since that all new knives which I have seen have Type B stamp of the crossbow and all old knifes (older 1992) had old Tyle A stamp.
@Frater_Martin
could you explain the scale calendar and how it works? I have noticed there was one inside, but was unsure of how to use it to extract data (did not want my ignorance leading to a bad assumption)
-
@Frater_Martin
could you explain the scale calendar and how it works? I have noticed there was one inside, but was unsure of how to use it to extract data (did not want my ignorance leading to a bad assumption)
Don’t you know? I am not a speSmurfpillst in that, moreover English is not my native language, but I can try.
When Victorinox factory molds plastic scales of the pressured hot plastic, they insert special tabs into a matrix. These tabs can show the year of the scale molding, number of the matrix etc. Some people call first of them “calendar”.
It can be number of the year, special circus of numbers/symbols etc. (see picture below). Pay attention that it is only the year of the scale production, not the year when the knife was born. Sometimes i did not find any calendars on scales.
We have to remove both scales to see both years on internal side of it. I know, it is a bit invasive method. Sometimes we can see the calendar through transparent plastic using a magnification glass and a flashlight.
-
There is another comparing old and new crossbow tang stamps. As you can see, the older stamp's crossbow is touching the cross and letter "C" in "OFFICIER".
-
Continuing this investigation, I have found that this changing TypeA->TypeB of the tang back side might be happened in 1992 or a bit later.
Below there is a photo of the knife, which has a screw on the scissors, a hook. Before I have seen dozens photos of knifes which had the TypeA crossbow, a screw on the scissors and a hook. And only this rare knife has TypeB tang. It means, that it was produced between 1991-1992 or in early 1993.
I took photos over there: https://www.facebook.com/groups/SAKCollectors/permalink/659399997518138/ and thanks Ken Galliher for them.
-
Hello again to everybody. Considering total number of new posts here, idea of knife dating is not very popular.
Anyway, I have found dates of main blades production for 91mm SAKs with "ECONOMY" stamped on it - it is1976-1980. The proof is over there http://www.sakhome.com/304372180, thanks for TROND. That page is quite old, but anyway there is no other sources about this.
-
OK Frater Martin
Clearly you do not understand this site very well and at 28 posts this is totally comprehendable
Dating SAKS is a total obesession for many members of this site - particulary in the SAK Knights board
For instance look here (https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,51872.0.html) - or check any number of posts discussing SAK dating - and any posts where Jazzbass has contributed.
Yes your link is interesting to a pretty nice blog - and I look forward to exploring that site some more
But please do no make judgements on this community from a position of ignorance of this site and its members. :twak:
If you want to promote your blog just decalre that and do not judge us!!
-
+ no replies does not mean nobody is reading...
-
I use sakhome quite a bit, it's a great site. I really appreciate the time and effort it took to gather and publish that information. Of course we all use sakwiki and the many other links (including sakhome, that's how I found it). I personally have spent a considerable amount of time and effort in placing dates on SAKs. There are a few dating features out there that is seems no one has quite been able to narrow down on any site I've seen. For example, I have not found accurate dates for:
5-turn to 4-turn corkscrew
Single to Double leaf scissor spring on 74 & 84mm
Dating features on 74mm in general
Dating the "passenger" / Alpineer
More thorough general information about alox/waffenkontroll
I do think wealth of information here at MTO on the SAK and Collectors forum is the most comprehensive I've found... but you have to dig in and search for it. We should all realize that we've already alienated ourselves from normal society and work together on the effort. We can spread the the love and knowledge and still remember our manners.
:tu: :D :salute:
-
I don't have the mother load or anything but I'm going to do my best to post pics of each variation I have soon. :salute:
-
........
I have found at least two different types of the crossbow on the back side of main blade.
Type A, older: the crossbow and the cross are touching each other and the cross is a bit larger than next one;
Type B, newer: there is little space between the crossbow and the cross.
I had been using comparative analysis of internet photos and found out, that change of the stamp happened between 1992-1996.
........
Some of these tang stamp changes are so subtle - I am staggered that you guys even spot them :o
This one with the cross touching or not touching is amazing.
It's like in the 2000s when they changed from V S S R to V SM S. But then the V size also changed a little later and there were also differences in the Swiss Made size/letter spacing.
There is a good thread on that with some photos by JazzBass.
And I still don't know how Ulli fits the dates to the stamps
The other one that I find quite hard to understand and see is the change from a tapered awl to the bevelled awl (or v.v) that happened a year or so after the awl got its eye.
And the scales date stamps thing is very useful - I am going to look at that some more - But as you say it's very invasive. I try and avoid taking the scales off if I can, as it can damage the bushing clips.
Thanks for the info anyway. Much appreciated
For me and my collection I am sticking with the major tool evolution changes :tu:
Hey El CS
- There is some info on the WC stamps in SOSAK/SAKnights - There is a link at the bottom of the Soldier 61 (link) (http://www.sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Soldier+1961) page in the Wiki.
Have you seen this? Any good?
And for the five turn to four turn CS switch is the SAAMS (link) (http://victorinox.metodi.me/91mmtools.php) date not correct?
Yes agree with you there is much less info available on the non-91mm sizes for dating
-
.........
I have found at least two different types of the crossbow on the back side of main blade.
Type A, older: the crossbow and the cross are touching each other and the cross is a bit larger than next one;
Type B, newer: there is little space between the crossbow and the cross.
I had been using comparative analysis of internet photos and found out, that change of the stamp happened between 1992-1996.
........
Some of these tang stamp changes are so subtle - I am staggered that you guys even spot them :o
This one with the cross touching or not touching is amazing.
It's like in the 2000s when they changed from V S S R to V SM S. But then the V size also changed a little later and there were also differences in the Swiss Made size/letter spacing.
There is a good thread on that with some photos by JazzBass.
And I still don't know how Ulli fits the dates to the stamps
The other one that I find quite hard to understand and see is the change from a tapered awl to the bevelled awl (or v.v) that happened a year or so after the awl got its eye.
And the scales date stamps thing is very useful - I am going to look at that some more - But as you say it's very invasive. I try and avoid taking the scales off if I can, as it can damage the bushing clips.
Thanks for the info anyway. Much appreciated
For me and my collection I am sticking with the major tool evolution changes :tu:
Hey ES
- There is some info on the WC stamps in SOSAK/SAKnights - There is a link at the bottom of the Soldier 61 (http://www.sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Soldier+1961) page in the Wiki.
Have you seen this? Any good?
And for the five turn to four turn CS switch is the SAAMS (http://victorinox.metodi.me/91mmtools.php) date not correct?
Yes agree with you there is much less info available on the non-91mm sizes for dating
I'm fairly confident that date is about 10 years off. I think it's closer to the date on the clip point blade. I've never seen a 5 turn On a knife with a spearpoint small blade
-
Ah That's an interesting theory. I always thought SAAMS was the SAK 'bible'
I only have two recentish five turners and they are both clip pointers - So supports you theory - I need to check the other tools
We need JazzBass!! Are you there mate?
-
I also think the combo tool was introduced some time between 80-82, not 86 :cheers:
I think the bevel on the tip of the awl was stopped by 80 as well.
I believe I can place some ballpark dates on the phillips as well: First is SAAM's dates, then mine (mine only has one confused face) :D
1. (1952-????) square, file, no can-key
2. (????-????) square, no file, no can-key
3. (????-????) square, no file, can-key
4. (1992?-????) round, can-key
5. (????-now) round, no can-key
1. (1952 - 1968) square, file, no can-key
2. Never seen it???? (square, no file, no can-key
3. (1968 -1980) square, no file, can-key
4. (1980 - 1992) round, can key
5. 1992 - present round no can key
-
.
For me and my collection I am sticking with the major tool evolution changes :tu:
Hey El CS
- There is some info on the WC stamps in SOSAK/SAKnights - There is a link at the bottom of the Soldier 61 (link) (http://www.sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Soldier+1961) page in the Wiki.
Have you seen this? Any good?
And for the five turn to four turn CS switch is the SAAMS (link) (http://victorinox.metodi.me/91mmtools.php) date not correct?
Yes agree with you there is much less info available on the non-91mm sizes for dating
The article on the 61 soldiers is good. :tu: Thanks for pointing that out :cheers:
-
Aha - Interesting again Mr El CS
I will have to update my SAK dating table
I got very excited by your item 3.
I collect the tool variations (mainly according to SAAMS, and other info learned here) and I thought that this was the one tool, that was missing from my collection!
If it does not exist at all then my collection is complete - :ahhh Woo hoo !!
But I went to check ....... and I do have the square Ph with can-key and no file. It's on an old 84mm Hoffritz Tinker.
The one I do not have is the square Ph with no can-key and no file ???
So if you have one for trade/purchase I would be very happy to have a chat :D
We need some of the old timers like ICanFixThat / JB / Stressmaster to chip in on this etc
PS. Ulli - Sorry to hijack your thread - However it's all dating info - So I hope that is OK :tu:
PPS. Thanks for the comment on the 61 Soldier page - I did some major restructuring/rework on that a while ago
-
Aha - Interesting again Mr El CS
But I went to check ....... and I do have the square Ph with can-key and no file. It's on an old 84mm Hoffritz Tinker.
It's the square no file no can key that I have not run into... have you? I'm pretty sure that can key stayed in there on all the Phillips from 68-92
I might have been fixing a typo when you first glanced
-
Yep - The 'never seen it' moved from 3 to 2 !! - So we are in agreement !!
It's number 2 that I have never seen either.
Although my collection is not that extensive compared to many - And I don't trawl eBay so much either these days!!
So if anyone has the square Ph with no can-key and no file - Let us know!!
-
:bump:
Got to keep it alive. :salute:
-
This is the thread that lead me to becoming a Knight :SAKnight:
-
Definitely - Dating SAKs is as much an art as a science!!
Our info says the awl got it's eye and the SD its half stop in 85, and the V got big in 86
Particularly for changes that happened in consecutive years - we see SAKs that break the rules!
I think its all down to the parts bin!! ie Old style parts being used after they are 'retired'.
I know that our dates are "circa" and forgive me if this has been discussed, but may I politely submit that we should move the dates for the half stop and the sewing eye FIRMLY in the year 1984 at least. Here's why I think so... Have we seen any of those two changes in known 1983 models? I don't know the answer to that but I have a Vic Explorer, older style burgundy box with white slide out cardboard tray and paperwork. The tray is inked "Explorer " and embossed "84". The knife tang has Victorinox (normal size V), Swizerland, stainless, rostfrei. Back tang marked officier suisse, with the bow and cross. Cross touches bow, bow touches C, cross does not touch Letter i. The mag glass is framed in grey plastic with a slight bevel. The snap ring holder is on a shim at the corkscrew layer, the scissors held by a screw. This knife has a grooved, 4 twist corkscrew, and more importantly, it has a half-stop bottle opener and a sewing eye in the awl. Is that aspositively dated to 1984 as anything we have seen, seeing as the box in which in came was marked from the factory? We have been saying '85 for both of those changes, but I have BOTH of those implementations on this clearly marked 1984 Explorer.
Any thoughts or contradictions? I try to read all of these dating posts but it's hard to keep up.
-
By the way, the box is marked 84, but there is a hand written note inside "from Uncle Barney Wallis 6-27-87 for High School graduation"
If the knife was made in 1984, and it was given as a gift in 1987, then we have some idea of production, shipping, and shelf time - at least during that era.
So, when I bought my Super Tinker about 1988, it could have been on the shelf for three years prior and have 1985 features.
But this Explorer is marked 1984 from Victorinox itself. Should that be the best we have to go by?
-
Hi, ThundahBeagle.
Could you make a detail photo to illustrate your post? It seems to be interesting.
-
Hi, ThundahBeagle.
Could you make a detail photo to illustrate your post? It seems to be interesting.
Happy to, Frater. At the moment I am at work, however I hope to do that when I have returned.
-
Some pics of the '84 Explorer...
-
...
-
...
-
...
-
...
-
...
-
Had to smudge up the blade a bit to keep the reflections down, but I think these pics demonstrate the Explorer with both the large screwdriver / bottle cap opener half stop, and the sewing eye awl. The older style box is inked Explorer and impressed '84'. I do have more pics, but the limited picture size posting requirements have us at a slight disadvantage.
It is especially because this clearly marked '84 has both of those features that I would think that these changes would have had to have been codified in 1984 or possibly even 1983.
Again, have we seen any known 1983's with either of these two traits?
I hope this helps
-
@Frater_Martin
could you explain the scale calendar and how it works? I have noticed there was one inside, but was unsure of how to use it to extract data (did not want my ignorance leading to a bad assumption)
Don’t you know? I am not a speSmurfpillst in that, moreover English is not my native language, but I can try.
When Victorinox factory molds plastic scales of the pressured hot plastic, they insert special tabs into a matrix. These tabs can show the year of the scale molding, number of the matrix etc. Some people call first of them “calendar”.
It can be number of the year, special circus of numbers/symbols etc. (see picture below). Pay attention that it is only the year of the scale production, not the year when the knife was born. Sometimes i did not find any calendars on scales.
We have to remove both scales to see both years on internal side of it. I know, it is a bit invasive method. Sometimes we can see the calendar through transparent plastic using a magnification glass and a flashlight.
Sort of like turning your Igloo Playmate cooler upside down and looking at the dial shaped calendar that marks the date of manufacture, or pulling up the cup-holder of your 1990's Blazer, flipping it upside down and seeing the same sort of thing.
Maybe that doesn't tell us the exact date of knife manufacture, but it is a good reference combined with other known marker features. Same with the underside of the cup-holder. You might see a 93 cup holder in a 94 Blazer, but with original equipment, never the other way around
-
Hi Guys,
Great discussion. I think I can add a data point or two to the growing body of evidence. In 1980 I bought a 91 mm Tinker. On a camping trip in high school the can opener broke so I sent it to Victorinox. Rather than repair it, they replaced it with a brand new knife. I might have completely forgotten this little life event if it were not for the fact that I saved the paperwork from Victorinox in 1983. So presumably my Tinker would be 1983 at the newest.
It has these features:
- half-stop cap lifter/screw driver
- awl with sewing eye
- round Phillips s/d with can key slot
- front tang marking: capital V in VSSR
- obverse tang marking: cross touching bow, cross not touching I, bow NOT touching C (but I had to look close).
Also, please note that the key ring is missing because I filed off its attachment point when I went through this regretful "modding" phase back in the 1990s.
The paperwork from Victorinox is dated 7 September 1983 and reads "New Tinker." I've included a picture of the box, but I don't remember if this is my original box from my 1980 knife, or if it's what the 1983 replacement knife came in. I checked it for a year emboss on the bottom tray and there was nothing. The end of the sliding tray is stamped "Tinker."
Here are some pics. I hope this helps advance the discussion.
Kind regards,
Myron
(https://i.imgur.com/bC25XYV.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/0Iz2S7o.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FZNoFsp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/YBJ89Z4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2dB8XVP.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/6dDGgTA.jpg?1)
-
Wow! Thanks Myron!
How interesting! Everywhere else I've seen and read the sewing eye and 1/2 stop Changes in 91mm occurred in 1985.
You must have gotten one of the very first ones it seems!
If I remember correctly, I recall jazzbass stating that the hole in the reamer occurred even later for the 84 mm line and a half stop for 84mm not until 2010
-
Hi Guys,
Great discussion. I think I can add a data point or two to the growing body of evidence. In 1980 I bought a 91 mm Tinker. On a camping trip in high school the can opener broke so I sent it to Victorinox. Rather than repair it, they replaced it with a brand new knife. I might have completely forgotten this little life event if it were not for the fact that I saved the paperwork from Victorinox in 1983. So presumably my Tinker would be 1983 at the newest.
It has these features:
- half-stop cap lifter/screw driver
- awl with sewing eye
- round Phillips s/d with can key slot
- front tang marking: capital V in VSSR
- obverse tang marking: cross touching bow, cross not touching I, bow NOT touching C (but I had to look close).
Also, please note that the key ring is missing because I filed off its attachment point when I went through this regretful "modding" phase back in the 1990s.
The paperwork from Victorinox is dated 7 September 1983 and reads "New Tinker." I've included a picture of the box, but I don't remember if this is my original box from my 1980 knife, or if it's what the 1983 replacement knife came in. I checked it for a year emboss on the bottom tray and there was nothing. The end of the sliding tray is stamped "Tinker."
Here are some pics. I hope this helps advance the discussion.
Kind regards,
Myron
(https://i.imgur.com/bC25XYV.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/0Iz2S7o.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FZNoFsp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/YBJ89Z4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2dB8XVP.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/6dDGgTA.jpg?1)
That's what I'm asking for.
I spent two short years doing I.T. for a manufacturer, and even in that short time I learned that nothing gets changed on a whim where assembly lines and costing is concerned.
If I have a knife as positively factory dates to '84 as can be, and it has these two traits, then I had to figure both were in full swing sometime in 84, and talked about in the board room in 83.
What surprises me is that you have a knife with both features and it is dated new in September 83.
What surprises me even more is that you have a large V in the front tang. My 84 is normal sized, and my (purchased and presumably 88) has a large V.
So they either wavered back and forth through stock, or they had two separate lines producing main blades.
Either way, the large V, the sewing eye, and the half stop now seem planted firmly in 83.
Now let's see if we can get a confirmed '82 and see what that looks like
-
By the way, Myron, my 84 box is burgundy and different. Maybe that's your 80 box?
I think there's a thread on here about boxes where we could find that out.
Your misfortune back in 83 sure seems to have shed light on some time lines
-
By the way, Myron, my 84 box is burgundy and different. Maybe that's your 80 box?
I think there's a thread on here about boxes where we could find that out.
Your misfortune back in 83 sure seems to have shed light on some time lines
Hi Thundah,
Yes, I think the box must be from my original Tinker. I have a number of the burgundy boxes with original knives, so I will conduct additional research tonight.
Thanks,
Myron
-
I recently got a new to me Explorer with features like you Thundah. VSSR, cross touching bow not I, half stop on bottle opener, grooved corkscrew, eye in Awl, bow NOT touching the letter C.
-
I recently got a new to me Explorer with features like you Thundah. VSSR, cross touching bow not I, half stop on bottle opener, grooved corkscrew, eye in Awl, bow NOT touching the letter C.
Aloha, hope you are well.
What size is the letter V?
Did you get a box with it?
-
All is well thank you. I got it used so no box. Hope the picture shows well.
-
All is well thank you. I got it used so no box. Hope the picture shows well.
Ah. Regular sized V. Nice Aloha. Very much like mine.
-
All is well thank you. I got it used so no box. Hope the picture shows well.
Ah. Regular sized V. Nice Aloha. Very much like mine.
Yup.
-
Somewhere on MTO (? ) there is a thread with photos that someone took off SAK liners and how those have evolved as well.
Anyone know who posted that?
-
Hello.
I got an Executive (Mcgiver fan, grew up with the series), yet the back spring on the scissor broke. I did some homework, it is not the 70's version due to the scissor spring type, yet i would like to know if it is one from the 80's when Mcgiver was full throttle, a thing of mine... In order for me to be clear on the repair request (repair or replace)
Thx in advanced.
-
I guess I wasn’t aware that MacGyver carried an Executive. But I just googled and sure enough he did use one in some episodes.
They’re inexpensive enough. Why not get this one fixed and then find yourself a period correct one to be your official MacGyver SAK.
-
This tang stamp is on a Cub Scout knife I just bought.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48860796333_ac2287a6f9.jpg)
The knife:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48860797528_9c9289af1e.jpg)
I Googled, "54122 Victorinox" and it leads me to a blue Cub Scout Tinker such as this one.
I don't know what the 1702 indicates.
I haven't seen this stamp on a cap lifter before and wondered if it appears on certain SAKs or during a certain timeframe. :dunno:
-
Never seen that before! Quite interesting.
February 2017 :think:
-
Never seen that before! Quite interesting.
February 2017 :think:
I was thinking something similar - Second week of 2017, so Jan 2017. Lots of things in industry (semiconductors, tires, car parts) are dated with a similar "year/week of year" scheme.
-
It certainly looks like 54122 is the US product code - Right format: ie Starts with 5 and five digits! And you can google it!!
- But who would stamp a screwdriver that fits multiple products with a single product code? :think:
The production date makes a bit more sense - But not much -
I get the year on a Soldier - But why YYWW or YYMM on a Scouts knife? ???
FB - Did you buy it new? Does year 2017 make sense ?
-
FB - Did you buy it new? Does year 2017 make sense ?
I bought it used from eBay and it arrives today.
As for the date code, it does seem possible, but odd since I've only seen two digit date codes stamped on the older tangs of the main blade.
Thank you Reinier and JB for your thoughts on the date code. Here is the original ad from the auction.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-1-2-Victorinox-Ibach-Switzerland-54122-1702-Cub-Scouts-Knife-Stainless-Steel/283636317041?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
-
Could it be Troop number?
-
Could it be Troop number?
That is an interesting thought there Aloha! It could be! :hatsoff:
-
Here is the original ad from the auction.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-1-2-Victorinox-Ibach-Switzerland-54122-1702-Cub-Scouts-Knife-Stainless-Steel/283636317041?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
Just found another auction with the same naming as in yours:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-1-2-Victorinox-Ibach-Switzerland-54122-1702-Cub-Scouts-Knife-Stainless-Steel/123932785904?hash=item1cdaf83cf0:g:tEsAAOSwQp5dnH27
Looks little bit different, isn't it? :D
-
Just a little :rofl:
-
Not sure how a Camillus could be made by Victorinox in Ibach :think:
-
Ok thanks a lot, I changed the compilation.
We all use this great sheet very often and like it, thank you again!
We have here only 2017 version and I was told today that modern version exists. Old version has some dates should be corrected in my opinion, maybe new one has them fixed? Here are what I mean, correct me if I'm wrong:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200331/e135f7a27eee521f4c07c630ada6e584.jpg)
BTW who knows well Hoffritz dating?
-
Like we’ve been discussing, there should be some splits for the stamps that have two or more versions, like +PAT, EC, VSSR1, HSS
Some of the graphics don’t appear correct. Like VOC2. Just looks like VOSC with the bottom cut off.
-
Like we’ve been discussing, there should be some splits for the stamps that have two or more versions, like +PAT, EC, VSSR1, HSS
Some of the graphics don’t appear correct. Like VOC2. Just looks like VOSC with the bottom cut off.
You are right. Here's earlier VOC version
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200331/ee7155b74ef5f61e023fc78b23262ea2.jpg)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
BTW who knows well Hoffritz dating?
Some knuckle head. ;)
H is used roughly ‘73 to ‘81/‘82. With VSSR up to about ‘75/‘76 then SSR only
The ‘HSS1’ I show above is from at least ‘51-ish US.PAT.PEND coincidence, but I think there’s PWAR use also. I think the transition to the ‘HSS2’ is in the early ‘60s, but I don’t have a good ‘peg’ for it. They might coincide exactly with the VOC/VOSC transition.
Thanks for bringing this up jnoxyd. Apparently, I was working on some of this on 3/8, but did nothing with the pics. They were intended for this thread and there’s more to do.
-
I've never seen an actual picture of HSSR,What period does it represent?
-
Thank you all for the interest on that tang stamp sheet and for your help.
I think that is a project never been finished, because like every week, I learn something new, see a new stamp or something that helps me make the dates more accurate.
So what is a new or different tang stamps. I hope you understand, that I can`t consider every tiny little change/difference, that happened, when the pressure of the punching machine was a little too high or too low, or that happened when they used a different kind of steel. So for me a difference is a new/different name, a small letter instead of a big one, a clear difference in the design. For the elinox stamp, there are at least 6-7 "different" stamps they used. The main visible difference is the size of the stamp, and of course, they needed different tools for those stamps. But for this charts, I don`t want to make here any difference, because its already really complicated. Its not only about the stamps, its also about the combination with other stamps.
So my actual tang stamp sheet has the following corrections you mentioned: the VSSR1 stamp I put between 1955 and 1986. The date “1952” comes officialy from victorinox. I have officer knives with visible rivets with the VSSR1 stamp. They used the VSSR1 stamp for most of the lines of the knives. I don`t know if there was any line they used it from 1952 on, but I don`t think for officer knives. But this chart is not only about officer knives.
The “AS3” stamp comes always with the “VSS5” or the “VSS3” stamp and the “VOC1” So I still would put it between 1951 – 1986. I know, this date is not really accurate, because it’s a really rare tang stamp, not used many times, so I just have not enough examples to narrow the dates.
For the “VSS4” stamp I have examples of officer knives with non visible rivets I think at least from the 1970s. So why do you think it was only used till 1957?
The “ESSR” stamp I put between 1973 and 1976. I have a dated 1976 knife with that stamp. And the “EC” between 1957 and 1974.
The “VOC1” and “VOC2” stamp I did not change yet, but I will. So the correct date would be 1955 – 1957? Because it is always together with the “VSSR1” stamp. Does the “VOSC” not comes after, but started parallel?
-
Thank you all for the interest on that tang stamp sheet and for your help.
I think that is a project never been finished, because like every week, I learn something new, see a new stamp or something that helps me make the dates more accurate.
So what is a new or different tang stamps. I hope you understand, that I can`t consider every tiny little change/difference, that happened, when the pressure of the punching machine was a little too high or too low, or that happened when they used a different kind of steel. So for me a difference is a new/different name, a small letter instead of a big one, a clear difference in the design. For the elinox stamp, there are at least 6-7 "different" stamps they used. The main visible difference is the size of the stamp, and of course, they needed different tools for those stamps. But for this charts, I don`t want to make here any difference, because its already really complicated. Its not only about the stamps, its also about the combination with other stamps.
So my actual tang stamp sheet has the following corrections you mentioned: the VSSR1 stamp I put between 1955 and 1986. The date “1952” comes officialy from victorinox. I have officer knives with visible rivets with the VSSR1 stamp. They used the VSSR1 stamp for most of the lines of the knives. I don`t know if there was any line they used it from 1952 on, but I don`t think for officer knives. But this chart is not only about officer knives.
The “AS3” stamp comes always with the “VSS5” or the “VSS3” stamp and the “VOC1” So I still would put it between 1951 – 1986. I know, this date is not really accurate, because it’s a really rare tang stamp, not used many times, so I just have not enough examples to narrow the dates.
For the “VSS4” stamp I have examples of officer knives with non visible rivets I think at least from the 1970s. So why do you think it was only used till 1957?
The “ESSR” stamp I put between 1973 and 1976. I have a dated 1976 knife with that stamp. And the “EC” between 1957 and 1974.
The “VOC1” and “VOC2” stamp I did not change yet, but I will. So the correct date would be 1955 – 1957? Because it is always together with the “VSSR1” stamp. Does the “VOSC” not comes after, but started parallel?
Yes you are absolutely right about "different" stamps due to technological process. But we need stamps that looks close but actually used in different times (usually they changed in transition periods together with other tools or knife construction). I mean large +Pat (1951?-1957) and small +Pat (1957-1971):
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200401/1455393e02fdd0cdded2c4d9caeac357.jpg)
and large Elinox (1957-c.1965) with small Elinox (c.1965-1974)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200401/6cfdb8f96b5c595c673be6ac4585b3a0.jpg)
What about Armee Suisse AS3 stamp - I'm sorry, I mean AS2 of course (couldn't find it in 2017 MTO version ;) ). BTW can you show AS3 stamped knives please, it's interesting.
After WW2 stamps usually changed in so called transition periods 1951-1952, 1957-1958, 1973-1974 and 1985-1986 (so VSSR1 started in 1957 etc.) We had nice discussion about 1950s stamps recently here and I like Jazzbass resume:
"The progression of stamps in the early vintage (EVNT) era from 1951-1957 seems to go:
1. Armee Suisse/Victoria Switzerland Stainless
2. Victoria Switzerland Stainless
3. [Large] Victorinox Switzerland Stainless/Victoria Officier
4. [Small] Victorinox Switzerland Stainless/Victoria Officier
5. Victorinox Switzerland Stainless Rostfrei/Victoria Officier Suisse
Stamps #3 and #4 make of the bulk of the knives from this era. #5 is really the stamp they started using with the mid-vintage hidden rivet knives in 1957/58, with a bit of over lap in both directions."
Knives for illustration (transition 1957 knives : visible rivets knife with new VSSR/VOS like you mentioned and hidden rivets knife with old VSS/VO )
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200401/60732344cfef4ed41c024a6172812ab5.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200401/6d9033129d59f15c780108b889ee38e5.jpg)
We can't to date exactly 3# to #4 changes but other stamps can be dated well:
Armee Suisse AS2 1936-1951
Victoria Switzerland Stainless vss2? till c.1952
Victoria Officier crossbow (both) voc2 1952-1957
Victorinox Switzerland Stainless vss4 1952-1957
Victoria Officier Suisse crossbow VOSC 1957-1973(4?)
Victorinox Switzerland Stainless Rostfrey vssr1 1957-1986
Here's link to discussion:
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,51152.960.html
Great you have ESSR knife with date! Can you show it please for mr. Kamakiri.
-
Great you have ESSR knife with date! Can you show it please for mr. Kamakiri.
Any such pictures would be appreciated! But posting them in ulli’s dated inlay advertising knife thread would be better! More pictures of the 1965 ‘large’ Elinox crossbow knife would be great too!
-
Ok I`ll try to upload some pictures of dated knives the next few day. But I don`t think I`m the only one having such knives? Maybe I`ll ask elsinox so we can put dated knives together. Hopefully you will be surprised on same knives/dates.
I spoke many times with victorinox about those tang stamps and the exact time range. Everytime I showed them a special tang stamp or special time range, they answered with "ahh, thats most likely a "monday stamp""... So what do they mean with that. After weekends, holidays or carneval, it happened sometimes that an employee took the "wrong" tool/stamp or chose the wrong pressure, put the tools the wrong side in. They realised that sometimes fast, sometimes not, so maybe already 5000 blades were made with the "wrong" stamp, for example an elinox stamp instead of an vssr. So what happened next. The employee hat to go directly to the director, karl elsener senior, to tell him about the "problem". And according to victorinox, his answer was always: as long as the knife is functioning fine, just sell them. Who cares about the stamps/non functional parts.
And of course, he`s right. Why not sell those knives? A few years ago, I saw at the ibach shop long nailfiled golfers for sale, modern tang stamp, old parts. I asked why they sell them. The answer was just: an employee found a box with nailfiles and decided to use them and he assembled golfers.
When I was for a guided tour at victorinox, I saw that an employee grinded and fixed kitchen knives by hand, every part. I asked why. And the answer was: ah he`s just producing the demanded year production of 50 pieces, because for such a small amount, it would be much too complicated to change the machines. And as long as someone still needs those special knives, we will produce them.
So that was and still is victorinox. So not for every thing/knife you see, there`s always an easy answer. Thats the same for tang stamps and time ranges. So not every mixed knife (old parts with new parts; old stamps with new parts;..) means that it has been repaired, or is a mod or a custom made knife. So 1 dated knife still means nothing, a few same knives means more, but for verifiation, you need lets say 20 pieces.
-
Haha, nice story about "Monday stamp", thank you! I'd like to have some of them. Yes, I remember that Golfers LNF, I bought Climber LNF that they also made from the rest of LNFs in 2010.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
ulli- thanks for the background story and history lesson! And for getting more pictures into the dated inlay thread.
I do have one more request - if you have any examples of ‘Monday’ stamps, could you post them in my ‘OOPS!’ thread here:
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,82832.msg2042613.html#msg2042613
I have a few of my examples there. Like this:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48894499118_ed61d6096b.jpg)
It’s funny that it’s Monday issues, it’s a common saying in the US for mistakes or QC issues in automobiles that they were ‘built on a Friday’, because workers are eager to leave for the weekend. Build dates were often easy to find on a sheet that was inside the car.
-
I added a picture of 2 knives with the stamp "as3"
Like we’ve been discussing, there should be some splits for the stamps that have two or more versions, like +PAT, EC, VSSR1, HSS
Some of the graphics don’t appear correct. Like VOC2. Just looks like VOSC with the bottom cut off.
No they appear correctly. It is a different stamp, the crossbow from "vosc", but without the "suisse". Maybe a transition stamp :-)
-
Oh, nice knives! Thank you for sharing, Ulli. This cross in emblem has "triangular" tips like in 1940s- early 1950s. What are other side stamps??
-
The other side stampes are for the 84 mm the "voc1" and for the 91 mm the "vss5"
-
The other side stampes are for the 84 mm the "voc1" and for the 91 mm the "vss5"
Thank you. Can you show pictures please, just interesting to compare this vss5 and another one (vss2?) with blank other side I have on 91mm from early 1950s.
And can you tell us what stamp is on 91mm can opener, upp or pat1?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Here 2 more pictures.
-
Here 2 more pictures.
Thank you very much, nice knives! 84mm has pre 1951 tools but already Phillips on the back and 91mm looks like post 1952 knife but with older scales. Both looks early 1950s for me.
BTW did they used US PAT PEN stamp together +Pat since 1951?
-
Thank you very much, nice knives! 84mm has pre 1951 tools but already Phillips on the back and 91mm looks like post 1952 knife but with older scales. Both looks early 1950s for me.
BTW did they used US PAT PEN stamp together +Pat since 1951?
You mean the same time period? I think the US PAT PEND was only used a short time for the US market only. The + PAT was used for all other markets.
-
Ok, thank you.
-
Wow, great! Will this AS3 stamps have a hidden rivet version after 1957?
-
Wow, great! Will this AS3 stamps have a hidden rivet version after 1957?
Yes I think so. I have (or have seen) later knives with that stamp. I m not absolutely sure, but I think I have seen that stamp also on other knives, 75 mm or slim 84 mm.
-
You mean the same time period? I think the US PAT PEND was only used a short time for the US market only. The + PAT was used for all other markets.
I find it hard to believe that they used +PAT at any time before the patent was actually granted (this was on February 28, 1953), because I think that this would have been illegal (pretty much anywhere). I attach the relevant patent document.
-
Yes I think so. I have (or have seen) later knives with that stamp. I m not absolutely sure, but I think I have seen that stamp also on other knives, 75 mm or slim 84 mm.
Thank you,this kind of stamps is really rare.
-
I find it hard to believe that they used +PAT at any time before the patent was actually granted (this was on February 28, 1953), because I think that this would have been illegal (pretty much anywhere). I attach the relevant patent document.
This is very interesting! As we usually knew before, the +PAT started in 1951，ten year patent period ending in 1971？
-
This is very interesting! As we usually knew before, the +PAT started in 1951，ten year patent period ending in 1971？
This is why it would be nice to change the chart. It is my belief that +PAT does not exist until 1953 for all markets.
The 'progression' of machining of the tool and that of all the early, US.PAT.PEND through large +PAT seems pretty clear to me that the two did not overlap at all.
We have covered both of these topics in the previous threads and I think in the vintage thread.
-
This is why it would be nice to change the chart. It is my belief that +PAT does not exist until 1953 for all markets.
The 'progression' of machining of the tool and that of all the early, US.PAT.PEND through large +PAT seems pretty clear to me that the two did not overlap at all.
We have covered both of these topics in the previous threads and I think in the vintage thread.
Us.pat.pen existed in 1951-1953，large + pat in 1953-1957, small + pat in 1957-1971，Is its approximate timeline understood in this way?
-
Us.pat.pen existed in 1951-1953，large + pat in 1953-1957, small + pat in 1957-1971，Is its approximate timeline understood in this way?
Not by everyone, it seems.
-
I find it hard to believe that they used +PAT at any time before the patent was actually granted (this was on February 28, 1953), because I think that this would have been illegal (pretty much anywhere). I attach the relevant patent document.
All I see and all I know, that argumentation - for me - makes no sense at all. On the site of the IGE you find it: "Eine Marke ist vom Anmeldedatum an für jeweils zehn Jahre geschützt. Der Schutz kann beliebig oft um weitere zehn Jahre verlängert werden." That means the patent is valid since the date of the submission. That makes sense. Because everybody can submit a patent. You don`t have to prove anything, and also the IGE does not prove if you are right (new design, new function,...). Thats up to you, up to the person or company, that makes the submit. If you as a private person or as a company think, that someone uses your own patent, that its up to you or them to make an accusation and you have to prove that you are right. So the patent startet in 1951, and victorinox extended it in 1961 for another 10 years. In 1971, the patent protection ended. Thats how it works in switzerland.
Maybe in the US its different, also in other countries. I don`t know how it goes there, but it seems that as long as a patent is not official registered, you had to use that "pat. pend." stamp, and after the registration, they changed to the +pat. And all the evidence I see leads exactly to that direction: very few knives with the pat pend stamp, most (if not all) of them you find in the US and not in europe, and most of them with the philipps.
In your argumentation, it should have startet in 1953 and ended in 1973, what is wrong, because there are no knives after 1971 with the +pat stamp.
-
All I see and all I know, that argumentation - for me - makes no sense at all. On the site of the IGE you find it: "Eine Marke ist vom Anmeldedatum an für jeweils zehn Jahre geschützt. Der Schutz kann beliebig oft um weitere zehn Jahre verlängert werden." That means the patent is valid since the date of the submission. That makes sense. Because everybody can submit a patent. You don`t have to prove anything, and also the IGE does not prove if you are right (new design, new function,...). Thats up to you, up to the person or company, that makes the submit. If you as a private person or as a company think, that someone uses your own patent, that its up to you or them to make an accusation and you have to prove that you are right. So the patent startet in 1951, and victorinox extended it in 1961 for another 10 years. In 1971, the patent protection ended. Thats how it works in switzerland.
Maybe in the US its different, also in other countries. I don`t know how it goes there, but it seems that as long as a patent is not official registered, you had to use that "pat. pend." stamp, and after the registration, they changed to the +pat. And all the evidence I see leads exactly to that direction: very few knives with the pat pend stamp, most (if not all) of them you find in the US and not in europe, and most of them with the philipps.
In your argumentation, it should have startet in 1953 and ended in 1973, what is wrong, because there are no knives after 1971 with the +pat stamp.
Thank you for your knowledge. I think the reasoning is very clear and correct. :tu:
-
All I see and all I know, that argumentation - for me - makes no sense at all. On the site of the IGE you find it: "Eine Marke ist vom Anmeldedatum an für jeweils zehn Jahre geschützt. Der Schutz kann beliebig oft um weitere zehn Jahre verlängert werden." That means the patent is valid since the date of the submission. That makes sense. Because everybody can submit a patent. You don`t have to prove anything, and also the IGE does not prove if you are right (new design, new function,...). Thats up to you, up to the person or company, that makes the submit. If you as a private person or as a company think, that someone uses your own patent, that its up to you or them to make an accusation and you have to prove that you are right. So the patent startet in 1951, and victorinox extended it in 1961 for another 10 years. In 1971, the patent protection ended. Thats how it works in switzerland.
Maybe in the US its different, also in other countries. I don`t know how it goes there, but it seems that as long as a patent is not official registered, you had to use that "pat. pend." stamp, and after the registration, they changed to the +pat. And all the evidence I see leads exactly to that direction: very few knives with the pat pend stamp, most (if not all) of them you find in the US and not in europe, and most of them with the philipps.
In your argumentation, it should have startet in 1953 and ended in 1973, what is wrong, because there are no knives after 1971 with the +pat stamp.
I don't know what you mean by "official registered." There are two relevant points in time here. The time when the application was submitted (May 7, 1951) and the time when it was approved (namely, the patent was granted; this was on February 28, 1953).
It's certainly true that, if a patent is granted, then the period of patent protection starts from the time when the application was submitted (so, this particular patent expired on May 6, 1971). However, when one applies for a patent, there is no guarantee that it will ever be granted. Hence, it is a lie to claim that something is protected by a patent at any time before the patent is actually granted. The thing that can be legitimately claimed after the submission of an application and before actual granting of a patent is the existence of a PENDING patent application. This is designated by markings such as "PAT. PEND."
The IGE has a page on patent marking (https://www.ige.ch/en/protecting-your-ip/patents/after-your-patent-has-been-granted/patent-marking.html) where this is explained. (The German language version is at https://www.ige.ch/de/etwas-schuetzen/patente/nach-der-erteilung/kennzeichnung.html )
As far as I can tell from observations, everything here fits very nicely to the legal framework: They used the US PAT PEND stamp from the time when they started making these can openers (and submitted the patent application) in mid-1951 and then after the patent was granted in 1953 they changed the stamp to +PAT and used it until the patent expired in 1971.
-
The machining of *some* of the early ‘large’ +PAT should match that of the US.PAT.PEND openers *if* they were both produced in tandem between ‘51 and early ‘53.
I have not found any, but yes, that does not prove they do not exist.
Perhaps some pictures of early +PAT could prove otherwise.
-
I don't know what you mean by "official registered." There are two relevant points in time here. The time when the application was submitted (May 7, 1951) and the time when it was approved (namely, the patent was granted; this was on February 28, 1953).
It's certainly true that, if a patent is granted, then the period of patent protection starts from the time when the application was submitted (so, this particular patent expired on May 6, 1971). However, when one applies for a patent, there is no guarantee that it will ever be granted. Hence, it is a lie to claim that something is protected by a patent at any time before the patent is actually granted. The thing that can be legitimately claimed after the submission of an application and before actual granting of a patent is the existence of a PENDING patent application. This is designated by markings such as "PAT. PEND."
The IGE has a page on patent marking (https://www.ige.ch/en/protecting-your-ip/patents/after-your-patent-has-been-granted/patent-marking.html) where this is explained. (The German language version is at https://www.ige.ch/de/etwas-schuetzen/patente/nach-der-erteilung/kennzeichnung.html )
As far as I can tell from observations, everything here fits very nicely to the legal framework: They used the US PAT PEND stamp from the time when they started making these can openers (and submitted the patent application) in mid-1951 and then after the patent was granted in 1953 they changed the stamp to +PAT and used it until the patent expired in 1971.
:iagree:
As someone who has personally been through the patent process in both the US and Europe, this is exactly my take on this issue as well.
-
One more point is that if the specific stamp were for the US market only, the typical mark would likely be just PAT.PEND. as there would be no need to specify US.
-
Interesting discussion. Me as well thought that the +pat started in 1951, and I think its mainly because you don`t find many of those us pat pend stamped knives in europe. And there should be much more out there, if they stamped all knives with that stamp. Maybe there`s an other reason. Victorinox developed the new can opener and made the submisson. Then they produced some knives and chose the US as a "test" market. There victorinox released some us pat pend models, and after it was successfull and the patent was granted, they released the knives everywhere with the +pat stamp. On the advertising knife thread you find a 52 and a 53 knife with the "old" can opener with swiss advertising. That would support this hypothesis.
One more point is that if the specific stamp were for the US market only, the typical mark would likely be just PAT.PEND. as there would be no need to specify US.
That point I dont understand. Could you explain that? In my understanding, the opposite should be done. I just can`t really understand why victorinox should sell knives in switzerland or europe with a "us pat pend" stamp. They could have used just "pat pend". And I cant find any other patented tool from victorinox where they have done it that way (us pat stamp). How would the people in the US react when a traditional gun or knife company would release products with a "swiss pat pend" stamp? I just don`t think that is a good marketing idea, and that would be the same for the swiss people. I don`t know if you know the history and relations between US and switzerland, what is and was not really good.
I`m not as into patenting as some of you might be. So for an US patent, you have to make an extra patent submission in the US or not? That has nothing to do with this submission from the IGE, or am I wrong? Is there an US pat nr. for this patent available, or has someone found it?
-
I just can`t really understand why victorinox should sell knives in switzerland or europe with a "us pat pend" stamp. They could have used just "pat pend".
To the best of my limited understanding, the use of patent markings is optional in Europe, but essentially mandatory in the U.S. (in the sense that selling a patented product without proper markings in the U.S. would significantly reduce the protection provided by the patent). I also find it strange that they used "US. PAT. PEND." rather than just "PAT. PEND." and I'm not really sure why they did it this way. I'm guessing that it was somehow beneficial at that time in order to get protection (or a marketing advantage) in the U.S. and that it didn't really hurt them anywhere else.
So for an US patent, you have to make an extra patent submission in the US or not? That has nothing to do with this submission from the IGE, or am I wrong? Is there an US pat nr. for this patent available, or has someone found it?
I am not aware of a U.S. patent for this can opener. The patent is Swiss and, to the best of my understanding, this is what +PAT indicates (the "+" is the Swiss cross).
-
Those patent things seem to be quite complicating...
After a bit of searching, I found an international patent for that can opener. It was submitted at the office in germany on the 29.05.1951, with a publication date of the 05.06.1953, publication/patent nr. DE000000878608
There`s also an US patent from 1955, no idea what it is. Title: pocket knife, publication nr. US2718695
And one other international patent from 1903, submitted in france, with the title"FR323119 - Perfectionnements aux canifs et autres objets analogues"
-
Interesting discussion.
I'd still like to see if you can find your earliest +PAT openers and post detailed pics and compare them to some of the US stamped ones. I don't imagine they waited to sell them elsewhere for two whole years, but those advertising knives make for an interesting theory!
-
Ok I can ckeck that when I`m at home. I`m not exactly sure what I should look after. What is the difference in the machining between the US PAT PEND and the common +PAT ? The tang or the polishing?
What is also very special, that in the german brochure of the marketing for those new can opener saks, the tangs are blank. That seems very special, compared to the "ges. geschützt" tang, where they used that tanged saks in advertising everywhere and for at least 20 or more years.
The picture added is (I think) from a 1952 brochure.
-
Ah and there is written (translated from german): "New can opener patented in several countries"
-
Great quality picture, Elsinox! Do you have other pics from this catalog (booklet?) Your picture looks very close to another one from ~1954 ( I think it’s 1954 because “70 years of experience” were mentioned). This picture has +Pat stamp on the can opener and booklet is from Swiss store. I don’t know how, but maybe this will help our discussion.
Sorry for the bad picture, it's not mine to my regret.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200408/8557d9481e976975175c09ebf5303477.jpg)
-
Ok I can ckeck that when I`m at home. I`m not exactly sure what I should look after. What is the difference in the machining between the US PAT PEND and the common +PAT ? The tang or the polishing?
It’s the differences in machining the final shape before polishing. After the die cut shape stamp.
I suggest sorting for what you know are the earlier main blade tang stamp combinations and go from there.
-
It’s the differences in machining the final shape before polishing. After the die cut shape stamp.
I suggest sorting for what you know are the earlier main blade tang stamp combinations and go from there.
So I`ve tried. I see some differences, but I dont get a plan or a clear trend. Maybe you can help. I added fotos of random vintage can openers, all between 51 and 57, with US PAT PEND stamps and some with +PAT stamps. So can you match the stamps with the can openers? Lets try
-
The “ESSR” stamp I put between 1973 and 1976. I have a dated 1976 knife with that stamp.
This knife (not mine) confirms at least ‘76 by its construction details. It is a 237 ‘Camper’.
‘73-‘75 Camper variants have clearly different construction for both Elinox and main line. Also observable in similar ‘related’ knives like Picnickers of the era as well as all the Hoffritz versions of both models.
-
So I`ve tried. I see some differences, but I dont get a plan or a clear trend. Maybe you can help. I added fotos of random vintage can openers, all between 51 and 57, with US PAT PEND stamps and some with +PAT stamps. So can you match the stamps with the can openers? Lets try
Thanks for posting the pictures elsinox! I must apologize for not seeing your post earlier. I didn’t notice it as I was drafting my response about the ‘76 essr stamp.
:facepalm:
First, grouping what I see is similar I would arrange them as:
4&6
1&5
2&3
I can’t see all the minor ground bevels in your pictures, and can’t see where all the ‘breaks’ and transitions are. And the finer details matter.
My guess is that there are two UPP stamps and that the chronological order is:
6
4
1
5
2
3
I don’t have one that is like #6. It is more of a guess that it precedes #1.
Thanks for taking the time to take the pics and I appreciate that you would make the test ‘blind’. :) :tu:
-
Almost forgot...I’d also like to see more pictures of the second knife, which I suppose is a 235U.
I notice it has the thin ~0.5mm scissor liner.
-
Whow, you`re great! Don`t really know how you make it...
I have to search the 235U, because I just took some random knives.
-
:iagree:
-
Whow, you`re great! Don`t really know how you make it...
I have to search the 235U, because I just took some random knives.
:cheers: Thanks, and don’t worry about the 235!
I appreciate the opportunity to validate some of my methodology. :tu:
...
jnoxyd- Thanks for bringing these topics to the surface again. Very interesting recent discussion and totally worth it. :cheers:
...
Would be nice if some others could chime in with (new) pictures of those early unstamped openers. Showing all the machined bevels isn’t always easy, but I think it would be valuable for those interested. It does seem possible that those blanks may all precede the UPP stamp. And for now, I will continue to assume the UPP precedes all +PAT versions.
-
Hi guys! I have a question to experts. I got a 84mm victorinox knife with a stamp on an aluminum liner. That is "R" letter. I cant found any information about that. In my opinion probably it stamp after repair job.
-
Hi Old Seaman,
I've seen this same stamp on old 84 mm Golfers that I take apart for the scissors. I always just assumed it stood for "right" and was there to assist in assembly at the factory. Maybe someone else will know more definitively.
Myron
-
Thank you for information. ;)
-
I have a question: where these stamps were used in 1884-1891? Please tell me if anyone saw the knives made by Karl Elsener before well known Soldier from 1891?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200531/ed87c173f8092d48821d61b1799e87ac.jpg)
-
You guys are amazing :o
I am constantly blown away by the level of detail and knowledge in this thread :tu:
And also extremely jealous of all your 'exposed rivets' SAKs
-
"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. "
No words "Victorinox" , "Elinox" or even "Swiss" in this stamp... What do you think? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201023/6a9cb756edbc385ce72458fff6adea66.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201023/bd6adb4aac8485acab3702445e73513f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201023/b7e1305ac61faa0a40e66f6c3429cc08.jpg)
-
"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. "
No words "Victorinox" , "Elinox" or even "Swiss" in this stamp... What do you think? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201023/6a9cb756edbc385ce72458fff6adea66.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201023/bd6adb4aac8485acab3702445e73513f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201023/b7e1305ac61faa0a40e66f6c3429cc08.jpg)
Interesting....do you think it is the stamp "R1" in ulli's stamp chart on the first page of this thread? :think:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50519308123_8b1aa4b5b7_m.jpg)
-
Interesting....do you think it is the stamp "R1" in ulli's stamp chart on the first page of this thread? :think:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50519308123_8b1aa4b5b7_m.jpg)
Yes, I think it is this stamp but all these knives I've seen were from 1970s . Here's in last Ulli's chart version
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201023/4defb7e23152b233c8184e595116a462.jpg)
-
Yes, I think it is this stamp but all these knives I've seen were from 1970s . Here's in last Ulli's chart version
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201023/4defb7e23152b233c8184e595116a462.jpg)
That is perplexing. :think:
Hope someone knows the answer to your inquiry.
-
"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. "
No words "Victorinox" , "Elinox" or even "Swiss" in this stamp... What do you think? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201023/6a9cb756edbc385ce72458fff6adea66.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201023/bd6adb4aac8485acab3702445e73513f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201023/b7e1305ac61faa0a40e66f6c3429cc08.jpg)
Interesting. Looks like c. ‘73 to me from what I can see. Might be able to improve on that with pics form the top and bottom, tools closed.
Machining on the saw is a bit smurfed. But that sounds about right for parts in Elinox knives.
-
Yes, I think it is this stamp but all these knives I've seen were from 1970s . Here's in last Ulli's chart version
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201023/4defb7e23152b233c8184e595116a462.jpg)
Note that the colored details in Ulli's table (https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,50014.60.html#att306974) suggest that this stamp can be found on the back side of blades that have either a vs3 or an els stamp on the front side. The vs3 and els stamps occur on floral knives, so I'm guessing that Ulli saw this stamp on the back side of the blades of floral knives that he believed to be pre-1970. As far as officer knives are concerned, the very few of them that I have seen with this stamp are indeed from the 1970's (probably mid-1970's), so I believe that the time range in Ull's table is a bit wrong. Usage of this stamp may have started in the late 1950's, but didn't end before the mid-1970's.
-
c. ‘51 pre +PAT 136faU ??
Too expensive for me, but thinking it might be proof of sorts that Phillips and Scaler may have been introduced before the official ‘51 and ‘52 dates.
AS2/VSS2 (VaSS) blank/no stamp CO, older style shield, anodized liners and the ‘51+ 2.5mm pins showing.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/HagAAOSwZ5VflSOx/s-l1600.jpg)
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1IEAAOSw6XZflSPL/s-l1600.jpg)
-
c. ‘51 pre +PAT 136faU ??
Too expensive for me, but thinking it might be proof of sorts that Phillips and Scaler may have been introduced before the official ‘51 and ‘52 dates.
AS2/VSS2 (VaSS) blank/no stamp CO, older style shield, anodized liners and the ‘51+ 2.5mm pins showing.
You are right, we discussed it in Vintage group. Let's go there ;)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201102/9df47f812914168440c0cfb567a95018.jpg)
-
You are right, we discussed it in Vintage group. Let's go there ;)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201102/9df47f812914168440c0cfb567a95018.jpg)
I know we covered a lot there...but I wanted to continue this where there was discussion on the blank CO and lack of its stamp.
Mainly, because it ‘proves’ or at least supports two theories. First, that the blank CO predates both UPP and +PAT stamps(as discussed here). And second, that the scaler may predate the Phillips...at least for 90/91mm.
-
And separately, I have found an example of UPP that is machined like early +PAT. So there are knives that can be pegged to ‘53 production.
-
Is this a new one? Variation of vsm1 (475/10 instead of 473/10). What do the numbers mean anyways?
It's a floral knife.
-
Is this a new one? Variation of vsm1 (475/10 instead of 473/10). What do the numbers mean anyways?
It's a floral knife.
I have a Gardener model with the same stamp. It has unusual scales made from some kind of celluloid (I suppose)
https://leaf-vics.com/2014/11/304-gardener.html(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201103/43964940aab6786f5486cea10cc40cf6.jpg)
-
Nice SAK Alex.
-
Is this a new one? Variation of vsm1 (475/10 instead of 473/10). What do the numbers mean anyways?
It's a floral knife.
AFAIK, the numbers are the blade profile name or codes. Pretty sure the 473/10 is one of the grafting profiles, maybe the one with the bark lifter in the back. Lots of them in the 47X range.
-
Thanks!
-
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201103/4d160344a4eb255332c4aa88dd1e2c51.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201103/0da32933a222da55f42cdecbf3e8fba0.jpg)
-
I’ve been looking for this stamp and can’t find any info. I’m conserved about the lowercase letters. Was there a version with lowercase?
-
It's an early "GEBR.DÜBENDORFER" promotion knife, but I cannot comment on the tang stamp.The only image I can find of one with rivets is very small, and from a closed Bay auction, which seems to be the same reference as your image post.
(edit: I see you won this knife, congrats :like:)
-
I’ve been looking for this stamp and can’t find any info. I’m conserved about the lowercase letters. Was there a version with lowercase?
You mean the "Elsener Zug"? That was just a dealer, so not an official tang stamp of the company Elsener/Victorinox. It was pretty common to put the name of the dealer on the tang. Most times, there was another stamp on the backside that linked to victorinox, like an Inoxyd Crossbow stamp.
As far as I know, Elsener from the city of Zug was not a close relative to the Karl Elsener family, not like Elsener from Rapperswil who was Karls cousin.
-
Thanks for the replies. Here’s the other side stamp. This one I can find on the charts.
Doing a search for GEBR.DÜBENDORFER, I find images of early trucks with the name on the side. GEBR is German for brother so it’s like trucking companies names around here. What pattern is the knife? Waiter?
-
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201103/4d160344a4eb255332c4aa88dd1e2c51.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201103/0da32933a222da55f42cdecbf3e8fba0.jpg)
That is great! What year's catalog is this?
-
Hi Team
I updated the first post in this thread with a link to the latest version of the table - With Ulli's permission, of course!
Thanks Ulli - Amazing work :) :tu:
-
I’ve suspected that the large Elinox tang existed into ‘66 (or later) for a while. Although I’m not ready to publish details yet, it seems they were used into ‘67. I don’t really collect a lot of Elinox knives, so it might be a while before I’d say ‘67 is ‘confirmed’. But I would say that ‘66 is.
-
Is this the same as the POLDI stamp shown in the chart?
-
I updated the first post in this thread with a link to the latest version of the table - With Ulli's permission, of course!
For me the link displays "404 Not Found / The requested URL was not found on this server." :dunno:
-
Is this the same as the POLDI stamp shown in the chart?
I’d like to see what stamp is on the regular blade stamp place, horizontal engraving usually means retailer company name or something like this. Let’s wait when you get it and see blade tang stamps, knife size, tools shape etc.
-
I’d like to see what stamp is on the regular blade stamp place, horizontal engraving usually means retailer company name or something like this. Let’s wait when you get it and see blade tang stamps, knife size, tools shape etc.
Thanks. I replied to the other thread with pics of the tools and tang stamps and my remedial observations. Would love to have you opinion. Thanks. Tried to link but it was a disaster so it is the Odd Vic? Tang stamp Poldi thread.
-
Hi - The 2017 version is on page three of this post - Reply 73
I will try and see what happened to the link - Looks like Elsinox has changed his website
-
Link in OP updated to latest elsinox site and page