Multitool.org Forum
Outdoor Section => The Outdoor and Survival Forum => Topic started by: Etherealicer on December 14, 2017, 08:39:22 AM
-
Ok, here it comes... I have never been in an emergency, where I needed to make fire and the likelihood of me getting in such an emergency I would rate as zilch... I cannot even think of an emergency where I would need to make fire.
Yet whenever I look around, every emergency kit (including mine, see attachment) has at least a dozend ways to start a fire. In addition to that, there is cotton balls, tinder and other flammable materials.
So, anyone ever been in an emergency that required you to make a fire?
What realistic scenario do you fear that would need you to make a fire?
This is not a critique, more a personal curiosity.
-
I think it's very much a 'let's escape to the forest' survival scenario which doesn't really compute for most outside of the prepper fantasy community. My hiking firestarter kit is specifically for cooking purposes.
-
I can only think of one time I truly "needed" a fire. That was while out hiking in winter and even then no-one would have died without it.
-
I can only think of one time I truly "needed" a fire. That was while out hiking in winter and even then no-one would have died without it.
But that does not sound like an emergency, that is making fire for fun (and fun it is)... I mean if I go out hiking and plan on making some bread on a stick, of course I need some fire-making device. But then the fire-making was the plan all along and I can quickly check if my lighter is functional beforehand (no need for 7 backups).
-
I hike all year around, fishing, kayaking and just walking around in the woods all year around and do carry a "kit" or just the things I know I will use.. So even if I have ways to start a fire and usually do, it is not for emergencies but more for food or comfort or just to have a nice time.. So it may look like a emergency kit it really just is a comfy kit with things that I don't like rattling around in my pocket. Firesteel, lighter, cord (mostly for extra emergency shoelaces) and firestarting papper.
But not for emergencies but would work for that to I guess
[It's not failure if you learn something from it]
-
We live in similar environments, so imagine you went cross country skying and you broke your leg. I know both countries have a good mountain rescue service but it still takes a while for them to find you, especially if you have not cell phone signal. And it gets cold enough to die of hypothermia. So a fire would be nice... :D
And in similar situations to light a propane stove to make something to eat. My father does a lot of cross country skying and there is one story of how once all of them forgot to bring any lighters. And then he tried to make electric arc with a couple of 4.5V flat batteries (and carbon electrodes form one of those batteries). He managed to produce the arc but the butane didn't catch on fire. It was still a good way to pass the time as he tells it. :D
Also now he always has several lighters with him. :D
-
Needed to? Well it is debatable if I needed to make a fire but I did and still don't regret that decision.
Is there now a chance where I would need to make fire in an emergency? Rarely and it is a small chance, but one that exists non the less. Hiking in the colder months and going out of town for different reasons could result in a smurfy situation where fire would be welcome. For instance yesterday I had to go to another town for a workshop. Didn't want to get in a car accident (and fortunately I didn't) but the roads are a bit slicker, people are driving a bit faster for some reason and I had a Spyderco Rescue in my pocket just in case. One of those situations where I'd rather have an option and not need it than end up needing it and not having it
-
Well, I've needed fire and couldn't make it, just not sure if lighting a cigarette counts.........? :rofl:
Your question is valid, but I think it depends on the kit and how and where it lives or is carried.
I spent a week with a ferro rod riding in my pocket until I realized I was being ridiculous :facepalm:
In my car definitely, EDC definitely not!
Living in a small city I can walk home from almost anywhere, there will be very little to nothing to burn along the way.......
As soon as I'm even on the outskirts of town, a kit could come in very useful.
-
We live in similar environments, so imagine you went cross country skying and you broke your leg. I know both countries have a good mountain rescue service but it still takes a while for them to find you, especially if you have not cell phone signal. And it gets cold enough to die of hypothermia. So a fire would be nice... :D
And in similar situations to light a propane stove to make something to eat. My father does a lot of cross country skying and there is one story of how once all of them forgot to bring any lighters. And then he tried to make electric arc with a couple of 4.5V flat batteries (and carbon electrodes form one of those batteries). He managed to produce the arc but the butane didn't catch on fire. It was still a good way to pass the time as he tells it. :D
Also now he always has several lighters with him. :D
Ok , with a broken leg, I won't be collecting firewood, especially not in the snow (its questionable that there is any, I mean treeline is at about 2000m)... I rather rely on my smartphone to rescue me from that (note that no emergency kit has a backup phone). If I'm with friends, they can help me stay warm or they could use the skis to make a splinter and a stretcher.
Or lets say you fall into ice cold water in the mountains. You need heat immediately, your finger are cold, you won't be able to use a ferro rod. Unless it is really cold, like -20°C, then you are better off keeping moving.
-
Great thread :tu: I carry a lighter and a ferro rod in a small kit in my backpack and do use the lighter to melt the ends of pull starter rope at work :cheers: The ferro rod is more just for fun though :D If I ever get the time to go out in the woods again :facepalm: I have a fire kit but only in an emergency (and no cell service) would I have to have it :salute: I carry fire making stuff because it is fun more than a need though :like: :like:
-
We live in similar environments, so imagine you went cross country skying and you broke your leg. I know both countries have a good mountain rescue service but it still takes a while for them to find you, especially if you have not cell phone signal. And it gets cold enough to die of hypothermia. So a fire would be nice... :D
And in similar situations to light a propane stove to make something to eat. My father does a lot of cross country skying and there is one story of how once all of them forgot to bring any lighters. And then he tried to make electric arc with a couple of 4.5V flat batteries (and carbon electrodes form one of those batteries). He managed to produce the arc but the butane didn't catch on fire. It was still a good way to pass the time as he tells it. :D
Also now he always has several lighters with him. :D
Ok , with a broken leg, I won't be collecting firewood, especially not in the snow (its questionable that there is any, I mean treeline is at about 2000m)... I rather rely on my smartphone to rescue me from that (note that no emergency kit has a backup phone). If I'm with friends, they can help me stay warm or they could use the skis to make a splinter and a stretcher.
Or lets say you fall into ice cold water in the mountains. You need heat immediately, your finger are cold, you won't be able to use a ferro rod. Unless it is really cold, like -20°C, then you are better off keeping moving.
I was not talking about ferro rod or matches but lighters. They work great, even at 2000 meters. And there is still stuff to burn above tree line. Pinus Mungo comes to mind. There is a smurf load of it in our part of the Alps. And it burns well (though any sausages you illegally prepared on it taste like pine resin). Granted it might be impossible for you to gather the wood but you friends could. And I think that more people are able to make a fire and wait for da choppa compared to making a strecher/sleds to get you off the mountain.
In addition you can use the lighter to melt the ends of rope you had to cut up for some reason, to melt threads of your disintegrating clothing, light the propane stove, warm up your sleeping bag (though be careful you don't end up lighting yourself on fire), making a fire in a cabin you intend to sleep in... I mean, I find uses for a lighter when I am in a civilised part of the world, how could I fail to do so in a wilderness setting? :D
-
We live in similar environments, so imagine you went cross country skying and you broke your leg. I know both countries have a good mountain rescue service but it still takes a while for them to find you, especially if you have not cell phone signal. And it gets cold enough to die of hypothermia. So a fire would be nice... :D
And in similar situations to light a propane stove to make something to eat. My father does a lot of cross country skying and there is one story of how once all of them forgot to bring any lighters. And then he tried to make electric arc with a couple of 4.5V flat batteries (and carbon electrodes form one of those batteries). He managed to produce the arc but the butane didn't catch on fire. It was still a good way to pass the time as he tells it. :D
Also now he always has several lighters with him. :D
Ok , with a broken leg, I won't be collecting firewood, especially not in the snow (its questionable that there is any, I mean treeline is at about 2000m)... I rather rely on my smartphone to rescue me from that (note that no emergency kit has a backup phone). If I'm with friends, they can help me stay warm or they could use the skis to make a splinter and a stretcher.
Or lets say you fall into ice cold water in the mountains. You need heat immediately, your finger are cold, you won't be able to use a ferro rod. Unless it is really cold, like -20°C, then you are better off keeping moving.
I was going to write about people somehow collecting wood with a broken leg but you beat me to it. :D Personally I'm of the opinion that using on a ferro rod when you could use a lighter is plain masochism but I'm sure I'll be creamed for that statement. :D I'd also imagine that a lot (not all!) of the hypothetical situations used to explain the need for emergency fire need are plain bad or even criminally bad preparation. Going alone without proper equipment, training, communication equipment and protocols, backup or clothing. I'd imagine that anyone prepared enough to have a fire kit would not be setting out without sufficient preparation. Many of the other scenarios (SHTF) are fantastical at best in that they assume that an emergency might happen which would necessarily still allow you time and access to your bag/gear/car or allow you to use them. Or situations where lighting fires or carrying big knives would not put you in far greater danger than you already are.
This goes back to the kind of stuff in the GHB/BoB thread. My current thinking is that I honestly believe that talking to people who have done it for real (refugees, victims, etc) will give a far better real world outlook on dealing with such situations than retired special forces guys on youtube. The ex-SF guys are used to going into a situation and environment specifically expecting trouble, hardship and having to rely on found resources. They have the preparation, training and mindset to deal with it. The refugees, people running from forest fires, people left with a broken car in the wilderness and cold, they didn't expect it to happen, they grabbed what they could and left, with their families and kids, in a whirlwind of emotion and fears. Any 'emergency' that we might prepare for will be far closer to the latter than the former and I think the lessons learnt from that would be far more useful. I think that when an 'emergency' happens you will either be trained and equipped to the extent that it is not an emergency or its very likely that nothing you have prepared will be particularly helpful. If you're at the point where you need a bow drill, it's unlikely fire is going to save you. If you had a knife to use for making primitive fire, why on earth would you not have had a lighter also?
Just my opinion. I've had to bug out for real with the family and it got me thinking a bit.
-
I agree. Most of the time emergency fire is not something you will need. But a lighter is useful and light (hey it's in the name right :rofl:). And sometimes you might be in a situation where you can use it to actually save your smurf. Or at least make yourself more comfortable. I see no reason not to edc two (a mini bic and a peanut lighter as a backup). But when out adventuring just carry 4. Ferro rods are in my opinion useless. There is no situation where ferro rod will work and 4 lighters won't (ok, except high altitudes but event there you are better off with zippo or matches). There are a lot of situation were ferro rod won't work but a lighter will. The only advantage of a ferro rod is if you want it stored for 10+ years. There a bic might fail. But to be honest, I never plan so far ahead regarding my gear. :D
-
I was hiking in the Smoky Mountains once, on the Appalachian Trail. We were maybe 6-10 miles from the trail head. It was early spring and we had a cold front roll through. We got a freezing mist at about noon and the trail became extraordinarily precarious. Most of the hike that remained was downhill.
Nothing bad happened, but an ankle injury at that point (I'm not talking a break, but something that would hobble you) would have left me in a really bad predicament. Too early in the year to have someone happen by to get help. Too slow to make it back to the car before dark. Very cold, and Everything was wet.
What DID happen was that we hauled @$$ down the mountain and spent the night at a Holiday Inn. :D
Then again, this was in a pre-cell phone era. But on the flip side, the terrain of the Smokies means there are LOTS of areas with no cell reception.
So, it's not beyond imagination.
I also spent a lot of time in my youth hiking the strip mined areas in my county. An injury and bad weather there could result in a similar situation.
Also, if you're with someone who is injured, and they don't have sufficient time to get to help by nightfall.
But, yes, most of this is 'boyscout' stuff. What I often like to call 'Smurfing around in the woods'. Not all that practical. I'm often really surprised how many survival kits focus on firestarting, and ignore the MASSIVE amount of wood an overnight fire actually needs, or don't bother to pack stuff to stay warm and dry to begin with. Nope. Oh, and don't bother with a ground pad either.
EDIT: Also... wow. OTHER people who think Lighters make infinitely more sense than ferro rods. After making something like 500 fires in the woods, I have had a lighter fail on me exactly... EXACTLY zero times. ONE lighter. Back then, I didn't even carry a backup. Admittedly, I'm in the midwest, so no high altitudes.
-
I was hiking in the Smoky Mountains once, on the Appalachian Trail. We were maybe 6-10 miles from the trail head. It was early spring and we had a cold front roll through. We got a freezing mist at about noon and the trail became extraordinarily precarious. Most of the hike that remained was downhill.
Nothing bad happened, but an ankle injury at that point (I'm not talking a break, but something that would hobble you) would have left me in a really bad predicament. Too early in the year to have someone happen by to get help. Too slow to make it back to the car before dark. Very cold, and Everything was wet.
What DID happen was that we hauled @$$ down the mountain and spent the night at a Holiday Inn. :D
Then again, this was in a pre-cell phone era. But on the flip side, the terrain of the Smokies means there are LOTS of areas with no cell reception.
So, it's not beyond imagination.
I also spent a lot of time in my youth hiking the strip mined areas in my county. An injury and bad weather there could result in a similar situation.
Also, if you're with someone who is injured, and they don't have sufficient time to get to help by nightfall.
But, yes, most of this is 'boyscout' stuff. What I often like to call 'Smurfing around in the woods'. Not all that practical. I'm often really surprised how many survival kits focus on firestarting, and ignore the MASSIVE amount of wood an overnight fire actually needs, or don't bother to pack stuff to stay warm and dry to begin with. Nope. Oh, and don't bother with a ground pad either.
EDIT: Also... wow. OTHER people who think Lighters make infinitely more sense than ferro rods. After making something like 500 fires in the woods, I have had a lighter fail on me exactly... EXACTLY zero times. ONE lighter. Back then, I didn't even carry a backup. Admittedly, I'm in the midwest, so no high altitudes.
Finally some realistic scenario. :tu:
Except, with the right shoes, the risk of ankle injury goes way down. Also, sprained ankle and the like, while highly likely, are better treated with a compression bandage than fire, yet you never/rarely find compression bandage on the "must have" list for your emergency kit*.
Everybody should know how to do this (also same for the knee):
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d5/09/16/d509164cb20e516e4e20891b31bedf95.png)
* In one case I recently read (can't seem to find it anymore) they suggested to have condoms and female hygiene products because they make good bandages... you know what else makes good bandages? Bandages! :facepalm:
-
My husband is prone to rolling his ankles. I need to check my medical kits to make sure I have ankle wraps in there. Unrelated to fire, but thanks. :tu:
Also, even wrapped, you can't walk 6 miles on a foot like that.
-
My husband is prone to rolling his ankles. I need to check my medical kits to make sure I have ankle wraps in there. Unrelated to fire, but thanks. :tu:
I'm too (only my left ankle, old injury). Anyway, I always have a brace when I go hiking in low-cut shoes. Just in case.
-
My hubby always wears hightop boots with good ankle support. But one day, on a dry, perfectly flat sidewalk, he just rolled one and I had ot walk home to get the car to come pick him up (only a few blocks from home). Still... :facepalm:
I think his is also a recurring injury. I THINK it's the same ankle.
-
you know what else makes good bandages? Bandages! :facepalm:
Wait... what? :rofl:
I prefer 3"x3" bandages. I generally think they can be cut to smaller sizes if needed.
EDIT: Also... THANK YOU! I have looked at a lot of videos of the 'best survival kit' type stuff, Bug out bags, get home bags, and as far as I can tell the winner is... any distance backpacker. Not BUILDING shelter, but taking it WITH you. Not hunting/trapping/fishing, but TAKING FOOD WITH YOU!!! Every f'ing idiot talking about stuffing garbage bags full of wet, moldy, bug infested leaves instead of taking a $5 frickin closed cell foam groundpad. Oh, no, but they'll haul literally 8 pounds of firearms and ammo. And not a change of dry clothes in sight. :facepalm:
-
I am sure some of that ammo can help them lighting a fire... :D
-
* In one case I recently read (can't seem to find it anymore) they suggested to have condoms and female hygiene products because they make good bandages... you know what else makes good bandages? Bandages! :facepalm:
Stop being so sensible!
-
you know what else makes good bandages? Bandages! :facepalm:
Wait... what? :rofl:
I prefer 3"x3" bandages. I generally think they can be cut to smaller sizes if needed.
EDIT: Also... THANK YOU! I have looked at a lot of videos of the 'best survival kit' type stuff, Bug out bags, get home bags, and as far as I can tell the winner is... any distance backpacker. Not BUILDING shelter, but taking it WITH you. Not hunting/trapping/fishing, but TAKING FOOD WITH YOU!!! Every f'ing idiot talking about stuffing garbage bags full of wet, moldy, bug infested leaves instead of taking a $5 frickin closed cell foam groundpad. Oh, no, but they'll haul literally 8 pounds of firearms and ammo. And not a change of dry clothes in sight. :facepalm:
I was thinking of something like this (you probably can use it to make a fire too ::)):
(https://cdn.medisave.co.uk/media/catalog/category/Crepe_Elastocrepe.jpg)
-
I am sure some of that ammo can help them lighting a fire... :D
Or make a fire redundant after falling into a pond with those tactical "floating" devices
-
I am sure some of that ammo can help them lighting a fire... :D
Or make a fire redundant after falling into a pond of water with those tactical "floating" devices
Ironically, the guy's name was 'Bob'. :D
-
* In one case I recently read (can't seem to find it anymore) they suggested to have condoms and female hygiene products because they make good bandages... you know what else makes good bandages? Bandages! :facepalm:
Stop being so sensible!
On the other hand female hygiene products and condoms make good female hygiene products and condoms which also comes in handy. And at least one of those can facilitate sharing body heat so there is less need for a fire during night... :D
-
* In one case I recently read (can't seem to find it anymore) they suggested to have condoms and female hygiene products because they make good bandages... you know what else makes good bandages? Bandages! :facepalm:
Stop being so sensible!
On the other hand female hygiene products and condoms make good female hygiene products and condoms which also comes in handy. And at least one of those can facilitate sharing body heat so there is less need for a fire during night... :D
I don't know, but I always find a broken leg to be a bit of a "mood killer" :rofl:
Condoms make also good slingshots for hunting :facepalm:
-
I sort of alluded to this earlier with the 'groundpad' comment.
There is a weird, and to me inexplicable fascination in the prepper community with improvising stuff that I personally feel REALLY ought to be directly planned for. In a 72-hour bag, for instance. You KNOW that you are going to need to sleep. If you are likely to need to sleep outdoors, it seems to me, STRONGLY... that you should prepare for that with specific gear. And if it's a 'get home' bag, then smurfing around building shelter is wasting time and calories that you could put toward GETTING HOME, or resting to get home, not smurfing around in the woods playing Grizzly Adams.
Hikers do this ALL the time. They carry a dedicated, lightweight shelter and sleep system. And it doesn't add a ton of weight to include a 4-season system over a 3-season system. It's really just a better cold-weather bag.
Fire has a few purposes in survival: warmth, cooking, water purification, and... way out there... keeping wildlife at bay. You don't need it for warmth if you have a good shelter setup. You don't NEED to cook if you plan ahead with the right food, or understanding short-term, get that you don't really need food at all. Or, hey, cold soak. There are a lot of other methods of water purification, down to as small as tablets. And boiling won't do anything to water that tablets won't, meaning both just kill mircobes. Neither remove heavy metals and such. Keeping vicious killer animals at bay is so far out there as to essentially be completely fiction (at least in the continental U.S.).
So, why is it SO focussed on?
1) it fits in a very small kit. You're not going to get a 0-degree sleeping bag into an altoids tin.
2) It's a good deal more 'renewable' than something like purification tablets.
3) Mostly, IMO, is because people feel all bad-ass when they make fires. Moreso when they do it in the least efficient way possible. Hey, Dave Cantebury and Bear Grylls do it! Bow-drill, friction fire, ferro rod, fresnel lens, ziplock bag of water, polished bottom of soda can, infinite insanity. People can't seem to separate survivalism and practicality.
I would be more against firemaking for emergencies, but the truth is... it's inexpensive, lightweight, portable, and if firecraft is the thing that gets people into the woods, then I'm cool with it.
As for it's actual necessity. Yeah... not likely.
-
Well, I kinda needed fire, I had to sterile a pin to pop a blister while out..
JR
-
:D Personally I'm of the opinion that using on a ferro rod when you could use a lighter is plain masochism but I'm sure I'll be creamed for that statement.
Not creamed exactly, but I would like to point out that I do use a ferro rod for every fire, simply because it teaches you good fire building skills.
Locally we have a fire lighter product called Blitz, and Blitz has become a generic term for fire lighters here.....
Fact is without good preparation or Blitz, you will fail just a miserably with a BIC........
-
....and if any of you have those small Light my Fire ferro rods, you can throw it in the trash where if belongs :salute:
-
I can only think of one time I truly "needed" a fire. That was while out hiking in winter and even then no-one would have died without it.
But that does not sound like an emergency, that is making fire for fun (and fun it is)... I mean if I go out hiking and plan on making some bread on a stick, of course I need some fire-making device. But then the fire-making was the plan all along and I can quickly check if my lighter is functional beforehand (no need for 7 backups).
Oh, we almost always build a fire for fun, but there was one time when it was more than that and it helped warm someone who was past just a bit cold.
-
I now live in a high risk earthquake area, fire making would be handy if electricity gets knocked out, how else will I cook my steaks from the freezer before they spoil?
-
So, anyone ever been in an emergency that required you to make a fire?
What realistic scenario do you fear that would need you to make a fire?
This is not a critique, more a personal curiosity.
Being able would certainly come in handy in case of an accident or technical problem would keep me stuck outside during the cold part of the year. (Not counting the weather because if the weather pins me down then likely there wont be a fire anyway).
On a similar note falling in water or getting wet all over. Without a way to keep warm and dry up that can get real cold real quick.
People do freeze to death here in certain situations - like the above. Now whether some small firekit will really be up to the job is another matter.
-
What realistic scenario do you fear that would need you to make a fire?
First, I think you're asking the wrong question. I don't fear a situation where I need to make a fire. Because I can do so. For me, the fear is being denied the ability to do those things that I can do. Its like fearing becoming a cripple- you don't need your eyes, you don't have to walk, you don't even need teeth any more, "civilization" has things that will take care of that for you. Perhaps if it is anything, it is fearing that I am no longer the master of my own fate, and thus dependent on the mercy and charity of others and on fate or luck or some god, whatever reason you want to blame for "scat happens".
You should just carry the means to start a fire. Just like you should just carry a knife. Why? Because of the same reason you change the batteries in your smoke detector twice a year, yet most of us will never need it. This is one of those head scratcher questions- it's like asking "why do you carry a flashlight" or "why do you carry a knife" or "why do you know how to tie knots" or "why do you use a pen and paper and not your phone". Any place else, I wouldn't even try to answer the question, but here, sure.
Realistic scenario. OK. I haven't had space for enough freezer for it to make much sense to hunt more than small game for a while. But when I hunted, I was in an area probably 10 or 12 square miles with no real roads and other than a few seasonal deer camps no houses because it was paper company forest land and then a state reserve. Not huge, but if anything goes wrong you're on your own until you're declared overdue or you find your own way out. There is a SAR callup at least once a year up there, and body drag every three or four years. Never got so lost I couldn't find my way back to camp, but I have stumbled into camp an hour or two after dark because I could see the mountains and had an idea which way was which the time I had two compasses disagreeing but neither had the sun setting in the west. If there were thick, low clouds, I"d have started making shelter and building a fire. Should have done that anyway, but I was still young enough to think myself 10 feet tall and bullet proof rather than trying to navigate by stars, moon and the shadows of the mountains against the sky.
I've also had ice fail under me probably half a dozen times- if I'd been more than quarter mile from home or camp, I'd have wanted a fire right there, right then. A few of those times I was very hypothermic, but I was heading towards warmth and people so I didn't stop. And I got lucky. One of those times, I slipped and did my knee up- patella was on the back of the knee once I was out of the brook. Good news was I was 50 yards from the house and I could lizard crawl and I was deep enough in the snow that the wind chill wasn't so bad. Coldest I've ever been. If this had happened where I hunted, I"d have splinted it, and tried to build a fire. Probably would have failed. Failure would have been death. And that's better than crying to death in the snow because I'm cold and I"m hurt and I don't have the ability to start a fire.
What it comes down to is a gamble. You stack the deck. You take advantage of the fact that your ancestors figured this stuff out, you can learn from their mistakes. In effect, you cheat. I carry a ferro rod on my keys, and a lighter in my pocket every day. The ferro rod is my first choice when I don't need a fire right away, to keep in practice and it's just fun. If I need a fire right now, I reach for the lighter, but I've had them fail. I have a spare lighter in my backpack, and between it and my pockets enough batteries and wire I should be able to get something to short. But the ferro rod doesn't mind being wet. It doesn't crap out at 10 below and gail force winds. (I also have a couple of large heat packs in the bag, and two body sized ones and a couple of little hand and foot sized in my coat during winter. I stack the deck. If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying to win.)
Now, if I lived in an urban location (we'll ignore that I'd probably go gibbering mad in a few months), I might not carry the ferro rod. But... I probably would. Same reason I carry a plastic business card in my wallet that has morse code and a punch out compass that I would need to float- because I do. Right there with a chunk of aluminum foil and a frensel lens and spare cash. Have for a long time. And any smartarse cityboy with pretty hair who wants to find it funny, well... That would be a failure of imagination combined with a lack of self preservation instinct on their part.
But yes, too many people, they have no idea what to do with their ferro rod. Their ancestors will turn their backs to these evolutionary failures. Century upon century of advancement, not needing to bang the rocks together, and they failed. Some humans, you just don't want to have the same number of chromosomes as.
-
Keeping vicious killer animals at bay is so far out there as to essentially be completely fiction (at least in the continental U.S.).
I can only remember one case here were that was actually critical. A boat with three Polish researchers capsized outside the coast of Svalbard. They lost all their gear and weapons, but managed to make it to the shore. Well there they were freezing cold, but managed to get a fire going by using a spark plug. And that was a good thing because a group of polar bears came circling in on them. Waving around with fire kept the polar bears at bay. By the time they were resqued some 15 hours later they were pressed all the way out on little bank with several polar bears just some 20 yards away.
Only actual case I know of. :)
3) Mostly, IMO, is because people feel all bad-ass when they make fires. Moreso when they do it in the least efficient way possible. Hey, Dave Cantebury and Bear Grylls do it! Bow-drill, friction fire, ferro rod, fresnel lens, ziplock bag of water, polished bottom of soda can, infinite insanity. People can't seem to separate survivalism and practicality.
I imagine it isn't actually about being efficient, but learning some old and or offbeat skills for its own sake? One could equally say that most forms of sport fishing isn't the most efficient way to actually catch fish, similar for many forms of hunting, and also for homemade crafts and equipment. Quite often there are less expensive and better stuff available commercially - and over the counter is way faster too.. That is missing a point though.
To me it seems more about the activity itself, and if people enjoy it or find it interesting then all good. I do imagine many getting more frustration than enjoyment from many of these offbeat fire making methods though :D
(It is interesting to know the old ways, but for actual need the most efficient and reliable way seems to be the obvious choice).
-
What realistic scenario do you fear that would need you to make a fire?
First, I think you're asking the wrong question. I don't fear a situation where I need to make a fire. Because I can do so.
I read all that with enthusiasm and interest and agree with all you said. :salute:
And your opinion on "other's opinion and comments" on what we decide to carry to be self dependant and capable on our own .
Well written! :tu:
-
What realistic scenario do you fear that would need you to make a fire?
First, I think you're asking the wrong question. I don't fear a situation where I need to make a fire. Because I can do so. For me, the fear is being denied the ability to do those things that I can do. Its like fearing becoming a cripple- you don't need your eyes, you don't have to walk, you don't even need teeth any more, "civilization" has things that will take care of that for you. Perhaps if it is anything, it is fearing that I am no longer the master of my own fate, and thus dependent on the mercy and charity of others and on fate or luck or some god, whatever reason you want to blame for "scat happens".
You should just carry the means to start a fire. Just like you should just carry a knife. Why? Because of the same reason you change the batteries in your smoke detector twice a year, yet most of us will never need it. This is one of those head scratcher questions- it's like asking "why do you carry a flashlight" or "why do you carry a knife" or "why do you know how to tie knots" or "why do you use a pen and paper and not your phone". Any place else, I wouldn't even try to answer the question, but here, sure.
Realistic scenario. OK. I haven't had space for enough freezer for it to make much sense to hunt more than small game for a while. But when I hunted, I was in an area probably 10 or 12 square miles with no real roads and other than a few seasonal deer camps no houses because it was paper company forest land and then a state reserve. Not huge, but if anything goes wrong you're on your own until you're declared overdue or you find your own way out. There is a SAR callup at least once a year up there, and body drag every three or four years. Never got so lost I couldn't find my way back to camp, but I have stumbled into camp an hour or two after dark because I could see the mountains and had an idea which way was which the time I had two compasses disagreeing but neither had the sun setting in the west. If there were thick, low clouds, I"d have started making shelter and building a fire. Should have done that anyway, but I was still young enough to think myself 10 feet tall and bullet proof rather than trying to navigate by stars, moon and the shadows of the mountains against the sky.
I've also had ice fail under me probably half a dozen times- if I'd been more than quarter mile from home or camp, I'd have wanted a fire right there, right then. A few of those times I was very hypothermic, but I was heading towards warmth and people so I didn't stop. And I got lucky. One of those times, I slipped and did my knee up- patella was on the back of the knee once I was out of the brook. Good news was I was 50 yards from the house and I could lizard crawl and I was deep enough in the snow that the wind chill wasn't so bad. Coldest I've ever been. If this had happened where I hunted, I"d have splinted it, and tried to build a fire. Probably would have failed. Failure would have been death. And that's better than crying to death in the snow because I'm cold and I"m hurt and I don't have the ability to start a fire.
What it comes down to is a gamble. You stack the deck. You take advantage of the fact that your ancestors figured this stuff out, you can learn from their mistakes. In effect, you cheat. I carry a ferro rod on my keys, and a lighter in my pocket every day. The ferro rod is my first choice when I don't need a fire right away, to keep in practice and it's just fun. If I need a fire right now, I reach for the lighter, but I've had them fail. I have a spare lighter in my backpack, and between it and my pockets enough batteries and wire I should be able to get something to short. But the ferro rod doesn't mind being wet. It doesn't crap out at 10 below and gail force winds. (I also have a couple of large heat packs in the bag, and two body sized ones and a couple of little hand and foot sized in my coat during winter. I stack the deck. If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying to win.)
Now, if I lived in an urban location (we'll ignore that I'd probably go gibbering mad in a few months), I might not carry the ferro rod. But... I probably would. Same reason I carry a plastic business card in my wallet that has morse code and a punch out compass that I would need to float- because I do. Right there with a chunk of aluminum foil and a frensel lens and spare cash. Have for a long time. And any smartarse cityboy with pretty hair who wants to find it funny, well... That would be a failure of imagination combined with a lack of self preservation instinct on their part.
But yes, too many people, they have no idea what to do with their ferro rod. Their ancestors will turn their backs to these evolutionary failures. Century upon century of advancement, not needing to bang the rocks together, and they failed. Some humans, you just don't want to have the same number of chromosomes as.
I'm just going to play devils advocate here. How much of the above could be changed from 'realistic scenario for needing a fire kit', to 'realistic scenario where not going out after dark without properly functioning equipment, or alone, or walking on thin ice is a good idea'? Fire in your examples is a solution to problems that could have been avoided.
Please note that I'm playing devils advocate. I fully appreciate the drive and want for solitude and independence in the hills, regardless of 'safer' options.
-
I'm just going to play devils advocate here. How much of the above could be changed from 'realistic scenario for needing a fire kit', to 'realistic scenario where not going out after dark without properly functioning equipment, or alone, or walking on thin ice is a good idea'? Fire in your examples is a solution to problems that could have been avoided.
Please note that I'm playing devils advocate. I fully appreciate the drive and want for solitude and independence in the hills, regardless of 'safer' options.
So... we can play devils advoate all we want, and make one of two choices.
Choice one is to never do anything risky. That leads to a pasteurized, tranquilized "civilization" of people who never leave sight of blacktop, and never do anything. Never makes anything. Never amounts to anything. But it's safe. Its comfortable. It's easy. If something breaks, you call for "professional help". No danger. No risk. No hazard. Never have to do for yourself. Never have to think for yourself. Never face a hazard. Never deal with the unknown. Define "chaos" as the internet is out or the pizza delivery guy brought you the wrong pie. This is an evolutionary dead end.
Choice two is accept that bad luck, bad timing, and equipment failure all happen, and prepare for them with proper training and equipment, with redundancies, to mitigate that risk. But then you have to admit that you an't prepare for everything, and sometimes smurf happens. Sometimes you made a bad call, get in over your head, and you have to do everything in your power to get out of that situation becuase quite often unless you brought friends who are all now in the soup with you you have no one to call who can be there to save you. This is being in a state of constant evolution.
Seem to recall that case two is the reason things like multitools came into existence, rather than case one.
-
I'm just going to play devils advocate here. How much of the above could be changed from 'realistic scenario for needing a fire kit', to 'realistic scenario where not going out after dark without properly functioning equipment, or alone, or walking on thin ice is a good idea'? Fire in your examples is a solution to problems that could have been avoided.
Please note that I'm playing devils advocate. I fully appreciate the drive and want for solitude and independence in the hills, regardless of 'safer' options.
So... we can play devils advoate all we want, and make one of two choices.
Choice one is to never do anything risky. That leads to a pasteurized, tranquilized "civilization" of people who never leave sight of blacktop, and never do anything. Never makes anything. Never amounts to anything. But it's safe. Its comfortable. It's easy. If something breaks, you call for "professional help". No danger. No risk. No hazard. Never have to do for yourself. Never have to think for yourself. Never face a hazard. Never deal with the unknown. Define "chaos" as the internet is out or the pizza delivery guy brought you the wrong pie. This is an evolutionary dead end.
Choice two is accept that bad luck, bad timing, and equipment failure all happen, and prepare for them with proper training and equipment, with redundancies, to mitigate that risk. But then you have to admit that you an't prepare for everything, and sometimes smurf happens. Sometimes you made a bad call, get in over your head, and you have to do everything in your power to get out of that situation becuase quite often unless you brought friends who are all now in the soup with you you have no one to call who can be there to save you. This is being in a state of constant evolution.
Seem to recall that case two is the reason things like multitools came into existence, rather than case one.
I think that pomsbz was wondering why you didn't stack the deck enough. :D
Example, bring the required gear so you can safely spend the night out in the cold and snow, a GPS, etc. :think:
And don't walk on ice. ;)
-
I think that pomsbz was wondering why you didn't stack the deck enough. :D
Example, bring the required gear so you can safely spend the night out in the cold and snow, a GPS, etc. :think:
And don't walk on ice. ;)
For me that usually comes down to the chances that something might happen, and the consequences if it actually does, versus the hassle it takes to be prepared for that.
In the case of fire that balance would be that smurf is very unlikely to happen, but if it does happen then it is potentially very bad - and that it takes very little hassle to be prepared.
And because bringing stuff in the car is less hassle I actually do have stuff in the car for spending the night out in cold and snow. (And that has been used more than once).
The problem with icy lakes is that they can sometimes be real hard to see in the winter.
-
Realistic scenario. OK. I haven't had space for enough freezer for it to make much sense to hunt more than small game for a while. But when I hunted, I was in an area probably 10 or 12 square miles with no real roads and other than a few seasonal deer camps no houses because it was paper company forest land and then a state reserve. Not huge, but if anything goes wrong you're on your own until you're declared overdue or you find your own way out. There is a SAR callup at least once a year up there, and body drag every three or four years. Never got so lost I couldn't find my way back to camp, but I have stumbled into camp an hour or two after dark because I could see the mountains and had an idea which way was which the time I had two compasses disagreeing but neither had the sun setting in the west. If there were thick, low clouds, I"d have started making shelter and building a fire. Should have done that anyway, but I was still young enough to think myself 10 feet tall and bullet proof rather than trying to navigate by stars, moon and the shadows of the mountains against the sky.
I hope you found out what made your compasses go awry. And while lighting a fire might have provided an alternative, it was not required to get you out of trouble.
I've also had ice fail under me probably half a dozen times- if I'd been more than quarter mile from home or camp, I'd have wanted a fire right there, right then. A few of those times I was very hypothermic, but I was heading towards warmth and people so I didn't stop.
I think that this is in most instances the best solution.
When you are wet, a fire really can save your life. However, I think you have to be quick about it. So, in a snowy landscape it might be rather hard to find enough material to make a fire.
And I got lucky. One of those times, I slipped and did my knee up- patella was on the back of the knee once I was out of the brook. Good news was I was 50 yards from the house and I could lizard crawl and I was deep enough in the snow that the wind chill wasn't so bad. Coldest I've ever been. If this had happened where I hunted, I"d have splinted it, and tried to build a fire. Probably would have failed. Failure would have been death. And that's better than crying to death in the snow because I'm cold and I"m hurt and I don't have the ability to start a fire.
A fire for the night requires a lot of wood... if you barely can move, then it will be hard to collect as much. A compression bandage is the first item you want. Some way to alert help and a personal shelter (or just a good thermal blanket).
What it comes down to is a gamble. You stack the deck. You take advantage of the fact that your ancestors figured this stuff out, you can learn from their mistakes. In effect, you cheat. I carry a ferro rod on my keys, and a lighter in my pocket every day. The ferro rod is my first choice when I don't need a fire right away, to keep in practice and it's just fun. If I need a fire right now, I reach for the lighter, but I've had them fail. I have a spare lighter in my backpack, and between it and my pockets enough batteries and wire I should be able to get something to short. But the ferro rod doesn't mind being wet. It doesn't crap out at 10 below and gail force winds. (I also have a couple of large heat packs in the bag, and two body sized ones and a couple of little hand and foot sized in my coat during winter. I stack the deck. If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying to win.).
This is the essence of my question. Is that much of redundancy to make fire really required?
-
I'm just going to play devils advocate here. How much of the above could be changed from 'realistic scenario for needing a fire kit', to 'realistic scenario where not going out after dark without properly functioning equipment, or alone, or walking on thin ice is a good idea'? Fire in your examples is a solution to problems that could have been avoided.
Please note that I'm playing devils advocate. I fully appreciate the drive and want for solitude and independence in the hills, regardless of 'safer' options.
So... we can play devils advoate all we want, and make one of two choices.
Choice one is to never do anything risky. That leads to a pasteurized, tranquilized "civilization" of people who never leave sight of blacktop, and never do anything. Never makes anything. Never amounts to anything. But it's safe. Its comfortable. It's easy. If something breaks, you call for "professional help". No danger. No risk. No hazard. Never have to do for yourself. Never have to think for yourself. Never face a hazard. Never deal with the unknown. Define "chaos" as the internet is out or the pizza delivery guy brought you the wrong pie. This is an evolutionary dead end.
Choice two is accept that bad luck, bad timing, and equipment failure all happen, and prepare for them with proper training and equipment, with redundancies, to mitigate that risk. But then you have to admit that you an't prepare for everything, and sometimes smurf happens. Sometimes you made a bad call, get in over your head, and you have to do everything in your power to get out of that situation becuase quite often unless you brought friends who are all now in the soup with you you have no one to call who can be there to save you. This is being in a state of constant evolution.
Seem to recall that case two is the reason things like multitools came into existence, rather than case one.
I think I made the question not clear enough.
Its not about avoiding emergencies, the question is, will it be fire that saves the day? And reading through your post I would say, even for you, the answer is "its very unlikely".
-
Conclusion from what was said in this thread so far.
It is rather unlikely that fire will save your life. However, a lighter serves many other functions, is small, so it is a good idea to carry one nonetheless.
It is very much depending on the environment, but for most people, a lighter is probably not an emergency essential.
Alternative ways to start a fire are fun, but require a lot of practice. A lighter is much better and if you want backup you better have another lighter. That said, if you enjoy other methods of fire-starting there is really no argument against it.
-
This is kind of the same thing as my opinion with fishing kits in 'get home bags'. While i think the notion of them is silly, the components for a fishing kit are pretty lightweight and small, and the line at very least has other practical purposes. So, for the weight, and for the cost, why not?
-
This is kind of the same thing as my opinion with fishing kits in 'get home bags'. While i think the notion of them is silly, the components for a fishing kit are pretty lightweight and small, and the line at very least has other practical purposes. So, for the weight, and for the cost, why not?
In my case cause there's no fishing anywhere near? :)
-
This is kind of the same thing as my opinion with fishing kits in 'get home bags'. While i think the notion of them is silly, the components for a fishing kit are pretty lightweight and small, and the line at very least has other practical purposes. So, for the weight, and for the cost, why not?
That is true... one should however have some skills in that area. Otherwise its fairly pointless.
Besides, I don't really care what others carry... I'm trying to figure out what I should be carrying.
-
Conclusion from what was said in this thread so far.
It is rather unlikely that fire will save your life. However, a lighter serves many other functions, is small, so it is a good idea to carry one nonetheless.
It is very much depending on the environment, but for most people, a lighter is probably not an emergency essential.
Alternative ways to start a fire are fun, but require a lot of practice. A lighter is much better and if you want backup you better have another lighter. That said, if you enjoy other methods of fire-starting there is really no argument against it.
Btw, I think the same is true for knives. The chance that a knife will help you out in an emergency is really small... I mean how often do you get into a situation where you have to cut off your arm, right?
However, a knife has even more use outside of an emergency situation, so its always good to have a knife.
-
In my case cause there's no fishing anywhere near? :)
Then you have to get really lost for it to be useful I guess? :P :D
-
In my case cause there's no fishing anywhere near? :)
Then you have to get really lost for it to be useful I guess? :P :D
I think that is one of the key points... The world is beautifully diverse.
If you are doing alpine sports, its not a bad idea to a have an avalanche beacon and even a backpack with an avalanche airbag. Both are useless when you get lost in a forest. On the other hand, no lighter will help you if you get trapped in an glacier cleft but might save your life in a more forresty-environment.
-
In my case cause there's no fishing anywhere near? :)
Then you have to get really lost for it to be useful I guess? :P :D
I think that is one of the key points... The world is beautifully diverse.
If you are doing alpine sports, its not a bad idea to a have an avalanche beacon and even a backpack with an avalanche airbag. Both are useless when you get lost in a forest. On the other hand, no lighter will help you if you get trapped in an glacier cleft but might save your life in a more forresty-environment.
I think the single biggest threat to humans are other humans and their actions. Be it through unintended smurf happenings in traffic, more purposeful bad guys, or any of the various other ways we injure, hurt or kill each other. Can't really say I've come across anything that really helps in that regard. So in the bigger perspective lighter and fishing lines are just partial answers to tiny blimps on the potential problems chart - but also problems we might exercise a bit of control over.
Actually, come to think of it, if you walk around in the right places with some great kit it will likely only get you mugged. Safer with nothing.
-
my opinion with fishing kits
In a short term kit, on or off blacktop, I think fishing kits are silly. You'll burn more calories trying to catch fish than you will get from them. I dismissed them as part of my theory that so much of what is part of the survival/prep culture is not only a mishmash of stuff that don't actually mix well, but also based largely on things like WWII navy manuals.
Then quite a few years ago, I had a realization. Maybe you need to be a cynic to see it. Fishing gear has a purpose in a small kit for the woods. They keep you near a water course, which is one of the first things I'm going to have people look for during a search, and it keeps you busy so you aren't trying to wander out yourself and getting more lost. Putting out snares or rat traps keeps you pretty much staying put to.
But for a town kit, it even has a purpose. One of those times I've found a damsel in distress. This was sobbing over a drainage grate in a parking garage- guess where her keys were. Can't get the grate out. But... some dental floss and a couple of paper clips later, keys. A treble hook would have worked even better. I've also used fish hooks as anchors over the top of a door- would work on a window casing, to.
The first question is, what do I use it for? Second question is, what can I make from this.
-
In my case cause there's no fishing anywhere near? :)
Then you have to get really lost for it to be useful I guess? :P :D
I think that is one of the key points... The world is beautifully diverse.
If you are doing alpine sports, its not a bad idea to a have an avalanche beacon and even a backpack with an avalanche airbag. Both are useless when you get lost in a forest. On the other hand, no lighter will help you if you get trapped in an glacier cleft but might save your life in a more forresty-environment.
I think the single biggest threat to humans are other humans and their actions. Be it through unintended smurf happenings in traffic, more purposeful bad guys, or any of the various other ways we injure, hurt or kill each other. Can't really say I've come across anything that really helps in that regard. So in the bigger perspective lighter and fishing lines are just partial answers to tiny blimps on the potential problems chart - but also problems we might exercise a bit of control over.
Actually, come to think of it, if you walk around in the right places with some great kit it will likely only get you mugged. Safer with nothing.
A safety west/personal light has the potential to reduce the chance getting run over by accident.
-
A safety west/personal light has the potential to reduce the chance getting run over by accident.
That is true. I am fairly reflective in the dark already but I guess it is a case of more is more.
I have actually been hit twice walking across pedestrian fields on green light. I am almost certain that first dude must have seen me but he just decided to start driving anyway. After all, why wait if he can just brush me away with the car? The traffic culture in some countries sure have more lunatics than others.
-
I have been thinking on this one a while, and, being back in Halifax has especially reminded me of the importance of fire.
Since we are right on the ocean, everything is wet and even on relatively mild nights the dampness gets to you and you can get hypothermia even when it isn't freezing. Everyone always says that you dress for the cold, but here the longer you are outside the wetter you get and those layers of clothing start to work against you. Also, it is quite windy, which, coupled with the moisture can get very problematic very quickly. The best defense against the cold here is fire, and I firmly believe that each and every survival kit needs to have the ability to manufacture fire in a hurry, even if the wood is wet.
Also, given that Nova Scotia is basically a hunk of rock (mostly granite) pushed up from the sea floor, cell signal is never reliable, and rescue can be many hours away. It makes more sense to build a fire and hunker down for the night rather than stumble around in the dark trying to get a signal, especially given the largely rocky and uneven terrain. That is pretty well a guarantee to find that broken ankle you were looking for.
Over the Christmas break I read about a family in Detroit (I think) that was paddling the river and for some reason had an emergency that caused the husband and wife, 5 year old daughter and a family friend to seek refuse on one of the islands, and they were likely saved by fire. I don't usually paddle in the winter as the cold water is very unforgiving, but it's a safe bet they were cold and wet when they made landfall. Unfortunately due to bad weather, rescue aircraft were unable to reach them, and due to shallow water rescue boats were unable to reach them. As I recall, they spent more than a few hours on the island, and, because their survival kit had the ability to make fire, they were reasonably ok.
Would they have died without fire? Probably not, but as the child was said to have mild hypothermia (I don't know how the hell that happened with three warm adults and a fire, but what the hell) it could have been a lot worse. Fire may not have saved their lives, but there's no doubt in my mind that it saved them from very unnecessary hardships.
It's important to remember that they had cell signal, and were able to call for help, but help was not available for some time, despite being in or near a major center. If circumstances can keep help from reaching you for hours in a populated area, imagine how long it can take rescuers to get to your position in the vast wilderness of Canada. Some of the wilderness photos I post seem remote, but are mostly all within an hour or two's drive of a major center, and there's a long way to go to get to real remote areas of Canada. :ahhh
Given how small fire starting stuff is, I will take it each and every time. I may not need it, but I'd rather have it than not.
Def
-
Fire is not something I use a lot in regular every day life but it sure is nice to have a couple different ways to make fire if it is ever needed :salute: Most fire making supplies these days take very little room up and weigh next to nothing :cheers: If I am going in the woods at all I am taking more than a couple ways to make fire as well :cheers:
-
I have been thinking on this one a while, and, being back in Halifax has especially reminded me of the importance of fire.
Since we are right on the ocean, everything is wet and even on relatively mild nights the dampness gets to you and you can get hypothermia even when it isn't freezing. Everyone always says that you dress for the cold, but here the longer you are outside the wetter you get and those layers of clothing start to work against you. Also, it is quite windy, which, coupled with the moisture can get very problematic very quickly. The best defense against the cold here is fire, and I firmly believe that each and every survival kit needs to have the ability to manufacture fire in a hurry, even if the wood is wet.
Also, given that Nova Scotia is basically a hunk of rock (mostly granite) pushed up from the sea floor, cell signal is never reliable, and rescue can be many hours away. It makes more sense to build a fire and hunker down for the night rather than stumble around in the dark trying to get a signal, especially given the largely rocky and uneven terrain. That is pretty well a guarantee to find that broken ankle you were looking for.
Over the Christmas break I read about a family in Detroit (I think) that was paddling the river and for some reason had an emergency that caused the husband and wife, 5 year old daughter and a family friend to seek refuse on one of the islands, and they were likely saved by fire. I don't usually paddle in the winter as the cold water is very unforgiving, but it's a safe bet they were cold and wet when they made landfall. Unfortunately due to bad weather, rescue aircraft were unable to reach them, and due to shallow water rescue boats were unable to reach them. As I recall, they spent more than a few hours on the island, and, because their survival kit had the ability to make fire, they were reasonably ok.
Would they have died without fire? Probably not, but as the child was said to have mild hypothermia (I don't know how the hell that happened with three warm adults and a fire, but what the hell) it could have been a lot worse. Fire may not have saved their lives, but there's no doubt in my mind that it saved them from very unnecessary hardships.
It's important to remember that they had cell signal, and were able to call for help, but help was not available for some time, despite being in or near a major center. If circumstances can keep help from reaching you for hours in a populated area, imagine how long it can take rescuers to get to your position in the vast wilderness of Canada. Some of the wilderness photos I post seem remote, but are mostly all within an hour or two's drive of a major center, and there's a long way to go to get to real remote areas of Canada. :ahhh
Given how small fire starting stuff is, I will take it each and every time. I may not need it, but I'd rather have it than not.
Def
That sounds lucky... I think if you go out in cold weather or harsh environment you need to be even more thoughtful on what you pack. If you get into a cold river and are all wet, you need to act fast, though I think dry clothing would be your best "survival gear".
Kinda makes me wonder what alternatives there are, to get you warm, aside from fire?
- Thermos with hot tea (this is limited, but it is also readily available)
- Heating packs (chemical reaction, with fuel that slowly burns or even electrical)
- Thermal blanket (kinda requires that you are fairly warm to begin with)
- Dry clothing (especially when paddling, having dry clothing available could be a life saver).
Anything else?
-
Fire is not something I use a lot in regular every day life but it sure is nice to have a couple different ways to make fire if it is ever needed :salute: Most fire making supplies these days take very little room up and weigh next to nothing :cheers: If I am going in the woods at all I am taking more than a couple ways to make fire as well :cheers:
many a mickle makes a muckle*
If your kit is stored in your car, then size/weight is far less important, but if you have to carry it, either in your pants or your backpack then that might come into it (especially pocket-space is limited).
So, it comes down to a "judgment call". Do you keep redundancy, or even drop it altogether? If you get into an emergency, how likely is fire going to save you. Do you veer on the side of caution (or as some might call it overkill), or do you take a "risk" and omit it.
*I just looked up the translation of "Kleinvieh macht auch Mist" (small animals make dung too)... I have to say, love the (British) English phrase :D
-
Kinda makes me wonder what alternatives there are, to get you warm, aside from fire?
- Thermos with hot tea (this is limited, but it is also readily available)
- Heating packs (chemical reaction, with fuel that slowly burns or even electrical)
- Thermal blanket (kinda requires that you are fairly warm to begin with)
- Dry clothing (especially when paddling, having dry clothing available could be a life saver).
Anything else?
It's not just falling in the water that is a concern- the evening mist and frequent rain can cause serious issues most of the year, except perhaps in the middle of summer.
A thermos is a great idea, although I would like to swap the tea for hot chocolate if that's ok. :D
Chemical heating packs don't work when they are wet, and the mist is more than enough to deactivate them. Trust me on this, I use them a lot!
Thermal blanket is great for reflecting heat, so can help even more if you have a fire. :D
Dry clothing is a great idea, except that in rain and mist (even forgetting the dump in cold water) everything gets wet sooner or later. If you are out overnight you would have to have a dry set of clothes to change into every 2-3 hours, moreso if it is raining.
Without any of the above (or a fire) there's a good chance you will still be alive here the next morning, but you won't be very happy about it. Assuming you are rescued first thing in the morning, you'd probably be ok. If not, you may warm up a bit in the sun, but I'd guess your chances of survival without rescue or fire would decrease significantly every night you were out, and I feel like it would be a race as to whether you were killed by dehydration or hypothermia. I'd say that's the case at least 8 months of the year here.
Def
-
Kinda makes me wonder what alternatives there are, to get you warm, aside from fire?
- Thermos with hot tea (this is limited, but it is also readily available)
- Heating packs (chemical reaction, with fuel that slowly burns or even electrical)
- Thermal blanket (kinda requires that you are fairly warm to begin with)
- Dry clothing (especially when paddling, having dry clothing available could be a life saver).
Anything else?
It's not just falling in the water that is a concern- the evening mist and frequent rain can cause serious issues most of the year, except perhaps in the middle of summer.
A thermos is a great idea, although I would like to swap the tea for hot chocolate if that's ok. :D
Chemical heating packs don't work when they are wet, and the mist is more than enough to deactivate them. Trust me on this, I use them a lot!
Thermal blanket is great for reflecting heat, so can help even more if you have a fire. :D
Dry clothing is a great idea, except that in rain and mist (even forgetting the dump in cold water) everything gets wet sooner or later. If you are out overnight you would have to have a dry set of clothes to change into every 2-3 hours, moreso if it is raining.
Without any of the above (or a fire) there's a good chance you will still be alive here the next morning, but you won't be very happy about it. Assuming you are rescued first thing in the morning, you'd probably be ok. If not, you may warm up a bit in the sun, but I'd guess your chances of survival without rescue or fire would decrease significantly every night you were out, and I feel like it would be a race as to whether you were killed by dehydration or hypothermia. I'd say that's the case at least 8 months of the year here.
Def
Why would you even go out in such weather :D
Hot chocolate is a good choice, doubles as several meals too...
Good info on the chemical heating stuff... I recently had one (from my Advent calendar), it barely got warm, so I'm not a fan to begin with. I have a coal hand warmer, but I have not used it in years. But its great if you go camping and it gets colder than anticipated.
We rarely have fog that sticks around this long, so I never got wet to the bones from fog. But I once hiked through a cloud with the same effect. However, once I was through, I was in the sun, so no problem.
As for rain gear... I pack a ultra-light rain poncho (sea to summit, ultra-sil poncho, at 145g a great EDC item if you are in a rainy country), doubling up on head/shoulder so far kept me dry even in stormy conditions. And it goes over the backpack, protecting that too.
-
Ok, here it comes... I have never been in an emergency, where I needed to make fire and the likelihood of me getting in such an emergency I would rate as zilch... I cannot even think of an emergency where I would need to make fire.
Yet whenever I look around, every emergency kit (including mine, see attachment) has at least a dozend ways to start a fire. In addition to that, there is cotton balls, tinder and other flammable materials.
So, anyone ever been in an emergency that required you to make a fire?
What realistic scenario do you fear that would need you to make a fire?
This is not a critique, more a personal curiosity.
I have never been in an emergency where I had to make fire.
A realistic scenario where I fear I would have to make fire?
Thats a tough scenario to envision for me. My evacuation bag is for wild fires and earthquakes where we'd have to go to a shelter. My lighter is for lighting my camp stove to cook with. Am I required to make fire? My evacuation plans in either of my realistic scenarios has me being self sufficient within the designated safe area we'd be evacuated to. I'd bring things my family and I could wait out our return to our home. Not sure my particular scenario would be adequate answer for your second question?
As for hiking and camping scenarios? My hiking pack always has a lighter. I never anticipate needing anything within that pack which always includes a 1st aid kit and misc things. Interesting tho, I carry a small length of duct tape and once on the trail a woman was walking with one shoe on. Her other shoe has darn near fell apart. The sole was flopping and nearly completely off. This particular day however I didn't have the duct tape. Interesting since its something I like to carry.
I bring this up since a lighter is small enough to carry and not make a fuss on its need. I guess my way of thinking regarding fire is, I've never needed to make fire out hiking but a mini Bic would sure be beyond its weight in gold IF. Thats the IF I'm ok to consider. All the other IFs that are talked about in my outings and day to day just dont hold enough weight.
-
I've been thinking this through recently. Firstly it's usually hot here. Very hot. No need for fires. That said I had a wake up call recently due to trying to light a fire in heavy wind and driving rain, a month or so ago. My mini Bic didn't stand a chance. My Zippo worked for 20 seconds until it was too wet for my finger to get any purchase on the wheel to strike. After some wet minutes of frustration I kicked myself, took out my UCO Stormproof matches and you know what? They were storm proof. Period. Worked perfectly. They burn down fast in the wind but they just worked. As a result the fire kit in my bag is out. No more waxed jute, firesteels and slivers of fatwood. Instead my Zippo for when the weather is ok (filled up before leaving on a trip) and a whole bunch of Stormproof matches for when it's too tough even for the Zippo. I've usually got a mini bic around, one in every coat, bag, etc but it's no longer considered an emergency solution.
-
Storm proof matches are nice. I've got some as well. Still gonna keep my lighters with me however my Zippo would never be a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd choice.
-
I have one of those arcing lighters on order. I won't be leaving my matches at home just yet, but I was curious about them.
Def
-
I have a USB lighter. No flame but it sure does hold a charge for a while.
-
I have a USB lighter. No flame but it sure does hold a charge for a while.
I have one too. It uses a tiny coil like the one on an electric stove. It's handy but I hate that it needs to contact things to light them. Trying to light a tinder with it can be problematic.
The arcing lighter arrived today and I will post pics of it in the next little while. It looks pretty neat and has a small blue LED on it when lit in case you can't see the two bolts of purple lightning or hear the sizzle of a semi controlled short circuit.
So far it seems pretty freaking cool.... let's see how long it works before I break it.... :facepalm:
Def
-
I just posted my initial thoughts on the arc lighter here in case anyone is interested:
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,80272.0.html
Def
-
I just posted my initial thoughts on the arc lighter here in case anyone is interested:
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,80272.0.html
Def
:tu:
-
For the record, today is one of those days where it is plus one degree Celcius, with heavy wind and pissing down rain, hail and snow. I would love to see Dave Canterbury survive on a day like today.
Def
-
:rofl:
-
The true survivalist, those working in such conditions day after day, year after year. :salute:
-
I was outside for about an hour when the rain started to seep through my rain gear. I was completely soaked inside and out by the time we were done.
Even my awesome waterproof winter boots, rated to -40C were no match for the water and cold today. Unfortunately my boot dryer is in Ottawa, so they will be wet for days now. :facepalm:
Def
-
Cold is cold but to know you will out again and again cold and wet :salute:. Its not like you can build a fire or shelter and bunker down.
-
I was outside for about an hour when the rain started to seep through my rain gear. I was completely soaked inside and out by the time we were done.
Even my awesome waterproof winter boots, rated to -40C were no match for the water and cold today. Unfortunately my boot dryer is in Ottawa, so they will be wet for days now. :facepalm:
Def
Should have had yer wellies :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFIBVNhjs7E
-
Lessons learned on a dayhike trial (1°C, spray rain, heavy rain and snow the last 4 days, everything dripping wet, wind) :
A firesteel is a neat piece of equipment, playing with it is fun (have one in my camping kit for my camping stove, those piezos have failed me before).
But if you really need a fire, in bad situations and non optimal conditions, they suck. Really.
Imagine beeing numb and stiff from the cold, everything is wet and you need to get proper, dry and flimsy tinder and scrape that small piece of metal? :twak:
My sollution for if I ever need a firekit: get the biggest, longest burning stormproof matches you can find and add one or two solid fuel tablets.
Most likely these: https://www.ucogear.com/uco-stormproof-matches-25-pack-mt--sm1--uco
You should get a first fire almost in every situation ASAP. And that first fire is the most important. You can add a firesteel for longterm fantasies.
-
After the driving rain and snow the temperature went from +3 last night to -8 this morning.
I'd hate to be a giant barefoot hippie caught in the woods yesterday. :ahhh
Def
-
I've been out on a motorcycle before, quite a ways from home when a warm day turned into a chilly, drenching downpour and I had no rain gear. After awhile I became hypothermic from riding while completely soaked. Riding 100 miles back home with hypothermia is not an option. It's far better to stop at a likely spot and warm up and dry out with a fire.
I can see the same thing happening while out on the river in a small boat.
-
Fortunately, I haven't been in a make-fire-or-die situation. I can think of a number of potential uses for it, though, including keeping warm, drying wet clothes, cooking, boiling water for drinking, sterilizing instruments for medical purposes, signaling, etc.
-
Don't forget your emergency kit when you stop to pee!
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/rescued-pilot-takes-flight-manitoba-lake-1.4994155
Def
-
I am working on a post to share the hike that Megan and I were on a few days ago and it reminded me of this thread.
We started our hike in the morning (around 10am) in the sunshine, and by mid afternoon the temperature had dropped and started to rain, which continued overnight. Temperatures were near freezing, and a few degrees on either side at different times. Had we gotten lost or hiked longer than expected, we would have been caught in a very unpleasant situation in which fire very likely would have been required.
While there would have been a lot of wet wood, I forgot one important thing about fire starting here in NS- Old Man's Beard and other mosses are very prevalent here.
(http://gallery.multitool.org/var/resizes/Defventures/The-Bluff-Wilderness-Trail/BLT%20%2823%29.jpg?m=1552933798)
(http://gallery.multitool.org/var/resizes/Defventures/The-Bluff-Wilderness-Trail/BLT%20%2818%29.jpg?m=1552933796)
It may not show up very well in the photos, but the trees are quite heavily covered in the green, stringy moss that is quite easily lit. It doesn't burn long, but in the quantities you could gather in just a few minutes you should be able to make a large enough tinder bundle to get something more substantial lit.
I would say that in this area, we could have gathered enough in just a few minutes to fill a decent sized backpack. Admittedly it isn't this heavy everywhere in the province, but you don't usually have to look too far to find enough to get started. In fact, there is even a reasonable amount in the trees in my yard.
Def
-
Always great to see natural tinder in an abundance as this :tu: I am sure you could get a fire going with a backpack sized amount of this :o :like:
-
If you couldn't find twigs, you could probably make a decent (although short lived) bonfire out of just Old Man's Beard! :ahhh
Def
-
:o :like: :like:
-
The only time I can say me or the group I was in truly needed a fire; is when I was on white water canoe trip in late November. We were paddling in a snowstorm and we came upon a set of rapids. The majority of the group decided to portage around as it wasn’t worth flipping a canoe in or near subzero temperatures (Celsius), but a young couple thought it would be worth running it (despite being advised otherwise) and needless to say they flipped the canoe and were swimming.
We then as a group rescued the boat and started a fire so these two could warm up. They were clearly suffering from hypothermia and without the help from us, making that fire and pulling them out of the water they likely would have died.
Moral of the story, don’t be an idiot and understand that cold water kills. Having the ability to make a fire is crucial, even though we may not “NEED” it most of the time.
-Cheers
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk