Post by: wowaboro on January 22, 2019, 02:03:37 PM
Free P3
Free T2
(https://pp.userapi.com/c846219/v846219410/186047/8OWfTqla8OE.jpg) (https://pp.userapi.com/c846219/v846219410/186047/8OWfTqla8OE.jpg)
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 22, 2019, 02:06:22 PM
Post by: SteveC on January 22, 2019, 02:09:28 PM
Post by: wowaboro on January 22, 2019, 02:14:12 PM
Any info on them ? :popcorn:
Only that the official launch in the US on April 17 and that P3 model has removable handles.
Post by: genevabuck on January 22, 2019, 02:19:08 PM
Post by: MMR on January 22, 2019, 02:22:32 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 22, 2019, 02:23:31 PM
Post by: rescue4500 on January 22, 2019, 02:26:43 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 22, 2019, 02:39:53 PM
Post by: ddogu on January 22, 2019, 02:47:13 PM
This photo just made me eat my comment on the "Wonder what SHOT Show will bring us from Leatherman?" thread... (https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,80373.msg1856437.html#msg1856437)
Post by: Poncho65 on January 22, 2019, 03:06:30 PM
Post by: Poncho65 on January 22, 2019, 03:07:30 PM
Post by: Raoul Octav on January 22, 2019, 03:10:30 PM
A new restylised Wave with new pliers, maybe outside scissor. And seems the outside tools are fixed to the opposite end compared to Wave, maybe even some sort of launcher wich i suspect is present on the pocket knives.
Damn, i would love to have them for a review in my native language
Post by: Raoul Octav on January 22, 2019, 03:13:29 PM
Post by: Raoul Octav on January 22, 2019, 03:20:59 PM
The multitool seem to have 4(maybe 5, as seen on Squirt) tools +Pliers, ergo very slim and light Multitool. Also i see a middle liner for extra structural support.
I guess:
-Blade
-Scissor
-Tshank or Bit adapter
-File
-some sort of screwdrivers
ps: while i zoomed, seems like the plier head is deplyed on rails as OHT
Post by: Raoul Octav on January 22, 2019, 03:27:31 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 22, 2019, 03:30:02 PM
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 22, 2019, 05:13:21 PM
Post by: rescue4500 on January 22, 2019, 05:17:07 PM
I suddenly care less about the new logo. :gimme:
:iagree:
Post by: Higgins617 on January 22, 2019, 05:19:12 PM
Post by: ThePeacent on January 22, 2019, 05:29:45 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/guTmfZi.jpg)
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 22, 2019, 05:47:41 PM
I got your attention now, bros?Yes. Yes he does. If the Free isn't made like the quality of a Sidekick/Wingman, and is built like a Wave/Charge/Surge, it should be great. :woohoo:
(https://i.imgur.com/guTmfZi.jpg)
Post by: Poncho65 on January 22, 2019, 05:52:42 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 22, 2019, 05:59:24 PM
I am soo excited! I wish Grant would get some kind or pre-order together for the P3. I would be in. :multi:
That plier head, on its' own, looks to be built with even more added pivot strength. Seeing as careless(I'm being nice here) people cutting big hardened nails and putting tools in Vises to test their "max strength" has been a trend in the past few years, that is a great move..IMO :woohoo:
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 22, 2019, 06:02:43 PM
When was the last time you were this excited for a new LM model?
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 22, 2019, 06:08:39 PM
Post by: ThePeacent on January 22, 2019, 06:09:35 PM
Yes. Yes he does. If the Free isn't made like the quality of a Sidekick/Wingman, and is built like a Wave/Charge/Surge, it should be great. :woohoo:
but, unlike these expensive three,
will this new one be, really for free? :dunno: :ahhh
Post by: Poncho65 on January 22, 2019, 06:13:06 PM
:ahhh :ahhh :ahhh
When was the last time you were this excited for a new LM model?
:dunno:
I really think it may have been the Rebar came out :ahhh that has been a while :o after I got a Rebar (and was so content with it) I missed a few tools being released so that may also weigh on the subject ;)
Post by: SteveC on January 22, 2019, 06:18:50 PM
It better have a reamer. :pok:
I just hope it does and not a another freaking can opener ;)
Post by: Higgins617 on January 22, 2019, 06:25:58 PM
It better have a reamer. :pok:
I just hope it does and not a another freaking can opener ;)
I need at least 3 can openers. Never know when you'll need to make emergency chili.
Post by: Wspeed on January 22, 2019, 06:27:28 PM
But can you use all 3 at the same time :DIt better have a reamer. :pok:
I just hope it does and not a another freaking can opener ;)
I need at least 3 can openers. Never know when you'll need to make emergency chili.
Post by: Higgins617 on January 22, 2019, 06:33:18 PM
But can you use all 3 at the same time :DIt better have a reamer. :pok:
I just hope it does and not a another freaking can opener ;)
I need at least 3 can openers. Never know when you'll need to make emergency chili.
You mean you're supposed to do them one at a time? :think:
Post by: Wspeed on January 22, 2019, 06:36:16 PM
:rofl: :rofl: :facepalm:But can you use all 3 at the same time :DIt better have a reamer. :pok:
I just hope it does and not a another freaking can opener ;)
I need at least 3 can openers. Never know when you'll need to make emergency chili.
You mean you're supposed to do them one at a time? :think:
Post by: Higgins617 on January 22, 2019, 06:37:57 PM
Post by: Wspeed on January 22, 2019, 06:39:52 PM
Just yell and flail arms wildly at cans until they're all open. Usually close my eyes too. :drink:I will have to try that :D
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 22, 2019, 06:42:13 PM
Post by: Poncho65 on January 22, 2019, 06:44:59 PM
Just yell and flail arms wildly at cans until they're all open. Usually close my eyes too. :drink:
I think they must do it differently in Europe ???
:D
Post by: Poncho65 on January 22, 2019, 06:45:22 PM
Someone has to get one and post pics and videos and stuff. What a tease! :ahhh
:iagree: :ahhh :ahhh :ahhh
Post by: Wspeed on January 22, 2019, 07:35:39 PM
Post by: Gareth on January 22, 2019, 08:49:27 PM
It better have a reamer. :pok:
I just hope it does and not a another freaking can opener ;)
Come on Steve, you know it'll have a can opener. ::)
Post by: Poncho65 on January 22, 2019, 08:55:21 PM
It better have a reamer. :pok:
I just hope it does and not a another freaking can opener ;)
Come on Steve, you know it'll have a can opener. ::)
:iagree: :facepalm:
:D
Post by: NKlamerus on January 22, 2019, 09:30:06 PM
Maybe I can swing by and take some photos before April.
Shouldn't we see some from SHOT?
Post by: Antti Lammi on January 22, 2019, 09:42:02 PM
Only Tools Matters
Post by: kirk13 on January 22, 2019, 09:45:26 PM
Al? Are you going g to jump in and take the bullet for me?
No?
Ok....
So,Leatherman seem to have built a OHO Swisstool. Meh.
Two ugly looking folders with a odd looking lock system? Actually,sorry. Two folders that look like cheap nasty off brand Chinese knives you'd find in a cheap hardware store.
Not excited at all.
Post by: genevabuck on January 22, 2019, 09:51:12 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 22, 2019, 10:11:30 PM
Oh dear,looks like I'm going to be the nay sayer :ahhh
Al? Are you going g to jump in and take the bullet for me?
No?
Ok....
So,Leatherman seem to have built a OHO Swisstool. Meh.
So, using such logic, are we to say that Vic built a locking Bear Jaws tool? And LM built a OHO Locking Bear Jaws? Or that Bear made an outboard-tool PST? Or that LM made a sak with two sides and pliers? Or that Vic made a mass production tool that was unoriginal, because everything about it had been done before? :think:
SwissTool is a very well made tool, but isn't really original in any way, so that argument doesn't apply in reality. The LM Free P3 looks to be a good mesh of pre-existing ideas. That is all most MTs can hope to be nowadays. SOG had some recent innovations. But, admittedly, not great ones. :tu:
Quote from: Kirk13
Two ugly looking folders with a odd looking lock system? Actually,sorry. Two folders that look like cheap nasty off brand Chinese knives you'd find in a cheap hardware store.You have a problem with them trying new ideas, and on the flip-side, other people criticize LM for not trying to improve. Can they do anything right?
Not excited at all.
I am excited about a new design. As we should all be. Otherwise nothing would ever be improved on.
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 22, 2019, 10:17:46 PM
but, unlike these expensive three,It would be cool if it were free, but alas, it cannot be so. :(
will this new one be, really for free? :dunno: :ahhh
Post by: rescue4500 on January 22, 2019, 10:19:12 PM
It looks like a civilian OHT.
i thought the same thing, just like i originally thought the signal was a civilian mut
Post by: Higgins617 on January 22, 2019, 10:26:34 PM
Oh dear,looks like I'm going to be the nay sayer :ahhh
Al? Are you going g to jump in and take the bullet for me?
No?
Ok....
So,Leatherman seem to have built a OHO Swisstool. Meh.
Two ugly looking folders with a odd looking lock system? Actually,sorry. Two folders that look like cheap nasty off brand Chinese knives you'd find in a cheap hardware store.
Not excited at all.
I honestly ignored the folders, so you're not wrong on those. But I've never bothered with their folders anyway.
However, a new tool that looks to have some actual changes from the same old(other than special editions for artisanal bread makers) does get me excited.
Post by: MTFool on January 22, 2019, 11:14:39 PM
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 22, 2019, 11:18:39 PM
I am a fan of multi-tools, good ones anyway. I always smile when a nice design pops up, from any manufacturer, and even if it turns out to be just another MT, that's alright.
I was excited when I saw the OUTU tool, because the design was nice.
The WorkPro Heavy Duty MT was interesting. And apparently quite decent.
And then the NexTool Flagship came along, and I really like it.
Gerber made the Center-Drive, and was excited to see what they did.
The Roxon Storm caught my eye, and I got it, and I love it.
SOG announced the PA and Litre and Pint, and I was excited to see what they had to offer.
Gerber announced the Nxt and Truss, and I could not wait to see what were all about.
And now Leatherman has a new MT coming out. Of course I am excited.
Not only does it exist, but it looks nice, it has a nice plier head, a different locking system, a removable lanyard ring which I assume can be swapped out for a pocket clip, and who knows what else.
I would be excited anyway if it was an off-brand model. To see it being a brand new Leatherman multi-tool, which looks to be its own thing rather than based on another frame, that is just too good to be true.
I simply cannot wait to see what this is. :like:
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 22, 2019, 11:19:04 PM
:pok: So how much of this free is going to cost us :dunno:Seeing as USA is on the pliers, the tool has to be mostly produced in house, so probably pretty expensive. Hopefully Wave price, but I'm not holding my breath.
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 22, 2019, 11:20:18 PM
I am extremely excited for the P3. :like:Nicely put, RP! :salute:
I am a fan of multi-tools, good ones anyway. I always smile when a nice design pops up, from any manufacturer, and even if it turns out to be just another MT, that's alright.
I was excited when I saw the OUTU tool, because the design was nice.
The WorkPro Heavy Duty MT was interesting. And apparently quite decent.
And then the NexTool Flagship came along, and I really like it.
Gerber made the Center-Drive, and was excited to see what they did.
The Roxon Storm caught my eye, and I got it, and I love it.
SOG announced the PA and Litre and Pint, and I was excited to see what they had to offer.
Gerber announced the Nxt and Truss, and I could not wait to see what were all about.
And now Leatherman has a new MT coming out. Of course I am excited.
Not only does it exist, but it looks nice, it has a nice plier head, a different locking system, a removable lanyard ring which I assume can be swapped out for a pocket clip, and who knows what else.
I would be excited anyway if it was an off-brand model. To see it being a brand new Leatherman multi-tool, which looks to be its own thing rather than based on another frame, that is just too good to be true.
I simply cannot wait to see what this is. :like:
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on January 22, 2019, 11:22:57 PM
Oh dear,looks like I'm going to be the nay sayer :ahhh
Al? Are you going g to jump in and take the bullet for me?
No?
Ok....
So,Leatherman seem to have built a OHO Swisstool. Meh.
So, using such logic, are we to say that Vic built a locking Bear Jaws tool? And LM built a OHO Locking Bear Jaws? Or that Bear made an outboard-tool PST? Or that LM made a sak with two sides and pliers? Or that Vic made a mass production tool that was unoriginal, because everything about it had been done before? :think:
SwissTool is a very well made tool, but isn't really original in any way, so that argument doesn't apply in reality. The LM Free P3 looks to be a good mesh of pre-existing ideas. That is all most MTs can hope to be nowadays. SOG had some recent innovations. But, admittedly, not great ones. :tu:Quote from: Kirk13Two ugly looking folders with a odd looking lock system? Actually,sorry. Two folders that look like cheap nasty off brand Chinese knives you'd find in a cheap hardware store.You have a problem with them trying new ideas, and on the flip-side, other people criticize LM for not trying to improve. Can they do anything right?
Not excited at all.
I am excited about a new design. As we should all be. Otherwise nothing would ever be improved on.
I have to admit that the Swisstool was the first tool that came to my mind when I saw the Free P3 (maybe that's why I found it interesting), I guess it's the shape of the plierhead that reminded me of the (last generation) Swisstool. The plierhead on the Swisstool also makes a straight line from the top of the pliers to the end of the handle (if you get what I mean), just like on the Free. So their silhouette looks very similar.
And the knives ... well :shrug:.
I had a close look at them in the pic and all I can say is that I was very happy to know that I own a couple of Crater and Expanse knives, which look way more interesting in my opinion. But I'll wait until I can get my hands on some of the new stuff before I'll form an opinion.
;)
Edit: "...which look way more interesting in my opinion. But I'll wait until I can get my hands on some of the new stuff before I'll form an opinion"
Oeps :facepalm:.
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 22, 2019, 11:27:49 PM
Post by: genevabuck on January 22, 2019, 11:35:57 PM
:pok: So how much of this free is going to cost us :dunno:
I just put a hundred dollar bill in my drawer and I don’t expect change.
Post by: cody6268 on January 22, 2019, 11:46:15 PM
Post by: genevabuck on January 22, 2019, 11:50:28 PM
And "LEATHERMAN USA" is on the pliers again! I'll hold my decision until more info on tool loadout and pricing comes out, probably in the next couple days.
Keep in mind that this is a prototype.
Post by: Poncho65 on January 23, 2019, 12:04:55 AM
Post by: chrono on January 23, 2019, 12:05:06 AM
Post by: SteveC on January 23, 2019, 12:08:36 AM
I will wait on the Bay. They banned me from buying on their website, saying I was a forwarder to some foreign countries >:( , which I am not. My money is not good enough for them.
WTF ! LM :twak:
Post by: kirk13 on January 23, 2019, 12:08:59 AM
Oh dear,looks like I'm going to be the nay sayer :ahhh
Al? Are you going g to jump in and take the bullet for me?
No?
Ok....
So,Leatherman seem to have built a OHO Swisstool. Meh.
So, using such logic, are we to say that Vic built a locking Bear Jaws tool? And LM built a OHO Locking Bear Jaws? Or that Bear made an outboard-tool PST? Or that LM made a sak with two sides and pliers? Or that Vic made a mass production tool that was unoriginal, because everything about it had been done before? :think:
SwissTool is a very well made tool, but isn't really original in any way, so that argument doesn't apply in reality. The LM Free P3 looks to be a good mesh of pre-existing ideas. That is all most MTs can hope to be nowadays. SOG had some recent innovations. But, admittedly, not great ones. :tu:Quote from: Kirk13Two ugly looking folders with a odd looking lock system? Actually,sorry. Two folders that look like cheap nasty off brand Chinese knives you'd find in a cheap hardware store.You have a problem with them trying new ideas, and on the flip-side, other people criticize LM for not trying to improve. Can they do anything right?
Not excited at all.
I am excited about a new design. As we should all be. Otherwise nothing would ever be improved on.
Lol,I knew this would ruffle a few feathers ;)
For what it's worth,I haven't got excited about a LM since the Rebar was launched...and I'm no fan of the Rebar.
My point about the tool is simply that its nothing new.
As to the folders,if you like them,then great,I have no problem with that,but to me theres nothing new except they look ugly.
I had to out my collection of multi tools into long term storage. I kept 5 pliers based tools with me for work and recreational purposes. While all are mods,two are PSTs,one is a Sideclip,and the other a Fuse. I dont hate LM,but to me,their great days are gone.
To refer to what you said about getting excited... If you're excited about this,then great :tu:. When Leatherman,or Gerber or Victorinix release a new tool that is a real innovation,or offer a tool that is genuine improvement over the Wave/MP600/Spirit,I'll get excited.
I'm sorry if my post upset you,but they're only multitools :dunno:
Post by: cody6268 on January 23, 2019, 12:13:42 AM
Oh dear,looks like I'm going to be the nay sayer :ahhh
Al? Are you going g to jump in and take the bullet for me?
No?
Ok....
So,Leatherman seem to have built a OHO Swisstool. Meh.
So, using such logic, are we to say that Vic built a locking Bear Jaws tool? And LM built a OHO Locking Bear Jaws? Or that Bear made an outboard-tool PST? Or that LM made a sak with two sides and pliers? Or that Vic made a mass production tool that was unoriginal, because everything about it had been done before? :think:
SwissTool is a very well made tool, but isn't really original in any way, so that argument doesn't apply in reality. The LM Free P3 looks to be a good mesh of pre-existing ideas. That is all most MTs can hope to be nowadays. SOG had some recent innovations. But, admittedly, not great ones. :tu:Quote from: Kirk13Two ugly looking folders with a odd looking lock system? Actually,sorry. Two folders that look like cheap nasty off brand Chinese knives you'd find in a cheap hardware store.You have a problem with them trying new ideas, and on the flip-side, other people criticize LM for not trying to improve. Can they do anything right?
Not excited at all.
I am excited about a new design. As we should all be. Otherwise nothing would ever be improved on.
Lol,I knew this would ruffle a few feathers ;)
For what it's worth,I haven't got excited about a LM since the Rebar was launched...and I'm no fan of the Rebar.
My point about the tool is simply that its nothing new.
As to the folders,if you like them,then great,I have no problem with that,but to me theres nothing new except they look ugly.
I had to out my collection of multi tools into long term storage. I kept 5 pliers based tools with me for work and recreational purposes. While all are mods,two are PSTs,one is a Sideclip,and the other a Fuse. I dont hate LM,but to me,their great days are gone.
To refer to what you said about getting excited... If you're excited about this,then great :tu:. When Leatherman,or Gerber or Victorinix release a new tool that is a real innovation,or offer a tool that is genuine improvement over the Wave/MP600/Spirit,I'll get excited.
I'm sorry if my post upset you,but they're only multitools :dunno:
I fully agree. The tools you list are truly revolutionary; but really, I can't say there's anything since that's been nothing more than a rehash of existing ideas. Back during the Multitool Wars (as I call it) of the mid-to-late 1990s, Schrade, Buck, Gerber, SOG, LM, Bear, and Vic, among smaller makers all brought new and truly revolutionary designs to the table.
Post by: genevabuck on January 23, 2019, 12:17:56 AM
Oh dear,looks like I'm going to be the nay sayer :ahhh
Al? Are you going g to jump in and take the bullet for me?
No?
Ok....
So,Leatherman seem to have built a OHO Swisstool. Meh.
So, using such logic, are we to say that Vic built a locking Bear Jaws tool? And LM built a OHO Locking Bear Jaws? Or that Bear made an outboard-tool PST? Or that LM made a sak with two sides and pliers? Or that Vic made a mass production tool that was unoriginal, because everything about it had been done before? :think:
SwissTool is a very well made tool, but isn't really original in any way, so that argument doesn't apply in reality. The LM Free P3 looks to be a good mesh of pre-existing ideas. That is all most MTs can hope to be nowadays. SOG had some recent innovations. But, admittedly, not great ones. :tu:Quote from: Kirk13Two ugly looking folders with a odd looking lock system? Actually,sorry. Two folders that look like cheap nasty off brand Chinese knives you'd find in a cheap hardware store.You have a problem with them trying new ideas, and on the flip-side, other people criticize LM for not trying to improve. Can they do anything right?
Not excited at all.
I am excited about a new design. As we should all be. Otherwise nothing would ever be improved on.
Lol,I knew this would ruffle a few feathers ;)
For what it's worth,I haven't got excited about a LM since the Rebar was launched...and I'm no fan of the Rebar.
My point about the tool is simply that its nothing new.
As to the folders,if you like them,then great,I have no problem with that,but to me theres nothing new except they look ugly.
I had to out my collection of multi tools into long term storage. I kept 5 pliers based tools with me for work and recreational purposes. While all are mods,two are PSTs,one is a Sideclip,and the other a Fuse. I dont hate LM,but to me,their great days are gone.
To refer to what you said about getting excited... If you're excited about this,then great :tu:. When Leatherman,or Gerber or Victorinix release a new tool that is a real innovation,or offer a tool that is genuine improvement over the Wave/MP600/Spirit,I'll get excited.
I'm sorry if my post upset you,but they're only multitools :dunno:
There is only so much that can be done with a multi tool. What exactly would impress you?
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 23, 2019, 12:27:39 AM
The Wave, MP600, or Spirit weren't revolutionary either. The LM P3 has a lot of the stuff we moaned and whined for. Now that we are getting some of that, you can only say that it is a rehashed tool.
The Wave wasn't the first with outboard blades. The MP600 is just a revised MP(Pinchy). The Spirit is a toned down SwissTool, which wasn't revolutionary either.
The LM PST, SOG PowerPlier, SOG Paratool, OG Gerber MP, Bear Jaws 155, Kershaw A100, and several others(BuckTool, Schrade ST1, etc.) were revolutionary.
I'm not upset. I just think you may not see what the P3 is to some of us pliers-MT enthusiasts.
Post by: Poncho65 on January 23, 2019, 12:36:48 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 23, 2019, 12:49:04 AM
I'll poop on the Free P3 if I dislike it after I get one in my collection. :)
Post by: kirk13 on January 23, 2019, 01:08:49 AM
He sees it :whistle: he just likes to :poke: and prod occasionally :D
Guilty as charged M'lud ;) >:D
Kirk13,
The Wave, MP600, or Spirit weren't revolutionary either. The LM P3 has a lot of the stuff we moaned and whined for. Now that we are getting some of that, you can only say that it is a rehashed tool.
The Wave wasn't the first with outboard blades. The MP600 is just a revised MP(Pinchy). The Spirit is a toned down SwissTool, which wasn't revolutionary either.
The LM PST, SOG PowerPlier, SOG Paratool, OG Gerber MP, Bear Jaws 155, Kershaw A100, and several others(BuckTool, Schrade ST1, etc.) were revolutionary.
I'm not upset. I just think you may not see what the P3 is to some of us pliers-MT enthusiasts.
You've slightly missed my meaning there GLM. I never said the MP600/Wave/Spirit were revolutionary. What I was aiming at saying was they were a high water mark.
The other thing you see to be missing and to be fair thts more down to my having been somewhat MIA,is that I am a major plier based tool enthusiast. I've used SOGs(Paratools,PPPs,Powerassists,and that other whatsit :think:), more Gerbers than I can shake a stick at(including gifting a few to workmates),and sooo many Leatherman(PSTs,Supertools,Pulses,Waves,Rebars,OHTs,Juices, Micras....well,you get the jdea). If you trawl back through my posts,you can see some of my old reviews.
Poncho is right...my post was deliberately provocative, but as Def says,we're a forum,not an agreeum. But to go back to my core point,so far I can't see what is the USB of the P3. In my last year working in Hamleys(see guys! I can say that now!) I split my multitool use between a Swisstool X and a Spirit. Before,I'd have rotated tools on a weekly basis.Both tools forfilled my needs flawlessly. If Leatherman want to regain my custom,as I've not bought(or been able to afford a new LM at UK prices in about 6 or 7 years) they would need to offer me a valid improvement over the Wave,which I'd used for years,again with flawless service.
If anyone was going to ask me what that I improvement was(aside from improving quality) I'd be stumped!
If you'd like to send me a P3 to try out,I'll gladly put it through its paces,and if it is super,I'll happily admit I'm wrong(see my review on the OHT). But,no,I am actually sorry,I cant feel the excitement :cry:
Post by: genevabuck on January 23, 2019, 01:24:13 AM
He sees it :whistle: he just likes to :poke: and prod occasionally :D
Guilty as charged M'lud ;) >:DKirk13,
The Wave, MP600, or Spirit weren't revolutionary either. The LM P3 has a lot of the stuff we moaned and whined for. Now that we are getting some of that, you can only say that it is a rehashed tool.
The Wave wasn't the first with outboard blades. The MP600 is just a revised MP(Pinchy). The Spirit is a toned down SwissTool, which wasn't revolutionary either.
The LM PST, SOG PowerPlier, SOG Paratool, OG Gerber MP, Bear Jaws 155, Kershaw A100, and several others(BuckTool, Schrade ST1, etc.) were revolutionary.
I'm not upset. I just think you may not see what the P3 is to some of us pliers-MT enthusiasts.
You've slightly missed my meaning there GLM. I never said the MP600/Wave/Spirit were revolutionary. What I was aiming at saying was they were a high water mark.
The other thing you see to be missing and to be fair thts more down to my having been somewhat MIA,is that I am a major plier based tool enthusiast. I've used SOGs(Paratools,PPPs,Powerassists,and that other whatsit :think:), more Gerbers than I can shake a stick at(including gifting a few to workmates),and sooo many Leatherman(PSTs,Supertools,Pulses,Waves,Rebars,OHTs,Juices, Micras....well,you get the jdea). If you trawl back through my posts,you can see some of my old reviews.
Poncho is right...my post was deliberately provocative, but as Def says,we're a forum,not an agreeum. But to go back to my core point,so far I can't see what is the USB of the P3. In my last year working in Hamleys(see guys! I can say that now!) I split my multitool use between a Swisstool X and a Spirit. Before,I'd have rotated tools on a weekly basis.Both tools forfilled my needs flawlessly. If Leatherman want to regain my custom,as I've not bought(or been able to afford a new LM at UK prices in about 6 or 7 years) they would need to offer me a valid improvement over the Wave,which I'd used for years,again with flawless service.
If anyone was going to ask me what that I improvement was(aside from improving quality) I'd be stumped!
If you'd like to send me a P3 to try out,I'll gladly put it through its paces,and if it is super,I'll happily admit I'm wrong(see my review on the OHT). But,no,I am actually sorry,I cant feel the excitement :cry:
What would impress you?
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 23, 2019, 01:29:45 AM
We seem to be at odds on the P3. Perhaps we can discuss it once some of us get them. I do apologize for getting flustered though.
Now, if you need me to make a list of almost every SOG model(ParaTool to PowerLitre, PowerPlier to Baton/Sync series) for you, just let me know and I'll list the ones in my collection. :pok:
Post by: kirk13 on January 23, 2019, 01:32:49 AM
Well Kirk13,
We seem to be at odds on the P3. Perhaps we can discuss it once some of us get them. I do apologize for getting flustered though.
Now, if you need me to make a list of almost every SOG model(ParaTool to PowerLitre, PowerPlier to Baton/Sync series) for you, just let me know and I'll list the ones in my collection. :pok:
No apologies needed mate :cheers:
I don't know about a list,but pics would be cool :)
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 23, 2019, 01:40:44 AM
:cheers:
No apologies needed mate :cheers:
I don't know about a list,but pics would be cool :)
And. SOGs. :facepalm:
http://imgur.com/fLubHNf.jpg
http://imgur.com/rDxzBoj.jpg
Post by: Higgins617 on January 23, 2019, 01:55:24 AM
:cheers:
No apologies needed mate :cheers:
I don't know about a list,but pics would be cool :)
And. SOGs. :facepalm:
http://imgur.com/fLubHNf.jpg
http://imgur.com/rDxzBoj.jpg
I think you need more.... :pok:
Post by: gregpost on January 23, 2019, 02:18:11 AM
Why is everyone so hyped without knowing anything about the tool load out?
What if it turns out to be some very subject specific multitool for spelunking or something. :rofl:
Post by: Higgins617 on January 23, 2019, 02:27:21 AM
Am I missing something?
Why is everyone so hyped without knowing anything about the tool load out?
What if it turns out to be some very subject specific multitool for spelunking or something. :rofl:
Nah you're not missing anything, and you could be correct. But I think its the seemingly new plier head and tweaked form factor that makes it seem like something to get fired up for.
But sure it could be the worst tool ever made. Who knows(until we get to try them)
Post by: gregpost on January 23, 2019, 02:35:42 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 23, 2019, 02:42:38 AM
I think you are right. Will work on that. :)
I think you need more.... :pok:
Post by: Higgins617 on January 23, 2019, 02:53:28 AM
By the way I'm hyped too. But will be disappointed if it's a genre oriented lifestyle multitool, more than a generally handy evolution of the "toolbox in your pocket" concept.
The look of it seems like a progression attempt not another odd spinoff, but again we won't know for a bit.
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 23, 2019, 07:20:17 AM
Kirk13,
The Wave, MP600, or Spirit weren't revolutionary either. The LM P3 has a lot of the stuff we moaned and whined for. Now that we are getting some of that, you can only say that it is a rehashed tool.
The Wave wasn't the first with outboard blades. The MP600 is just a revised MP(Pinchy). The Spirit is a toned down SwissTool, which wasn't revolutionary either.
The LM PST, SOG PowerPlier, SOG Paratool, OG Gerber MP, Bear Jaws 155, Kershaw A100, and several others(BuckTool, Schrade ST1, etc.) were revolutionary.
I'm not upset. I just think you may not see what the P3 is to some of us pliers-MT enthusiasts.
I do not expect revolutionary ideas when it comes to multi-tools. We're way past that. I do not even know what I would count as revolutionary anymore. Are the Outu monster scissors revolutionary? They're certainly a welcome addition to the bunch. Maybe if the design was produced by Leatherman or CRKT or something. Maybe a new interpretation of the Coleman ProLock? That would just be a rehash, though.
If something completely mind-blowing comes along, it is more than welcome to, but in the meantime, I am perfectly happy with good old butterflies and flicks.
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 23, 2019, 08:05:17 AM
Interpretation of innovation is a subjective rabbit hole. :ahhh
I am perfectly happy with classic designs that have been improved in some ways as well. Hoping the P3 qualifies as an improved design. It'll be added to the collection regardless.
Oh, and crazy designs are still awesome. Love some of the wierd stuff out there. The SOG Sync and Baton series comes to mind.
On a side thought:
Funny how actual innovative tools get crapped on for not being what people are comfortable with. And in turn, companies get crapped on for not trying new designs and ideas(being accused of stagnation). The contradictory nature of it is part of why some collectors have lost interest in multitools(or at least the community aspects of it, since most members are not collectors/aficionados anymore). God knows I am perturbed by the negativity at times and have contemplated taking breaks. I try to be positive about MT maker's attempts to buck the trends. But, some people just want to watch the world burn, I guess. Glass half empty kind of outlook. :facepalm:
Post by: ddogu on January 23, 2019, 11:56:15 AM
I suddenly care less about the new logo. :gimme:
+1
Post by: balvenie on January 23, 2019, 12:50:45 PM
Well. What he is doing is like me going into a SAK collector thread(example. One for special limited production editions) and giving reasons why people shouldn't buy them. I'd never do that, as I understand collecting and enthusiasts.Agree 100%
I'll poop on the Free P3 if I dislike it after I get one in my collection. :)
Post by: wowaboro on January 23, 2019, 03:18:52 PM
Post by: Wspeed on January 23, 2019, 03:20:23 PM
Post by: rescue4500 on January 23, 2019, 03:38:17 PM
(https://pp.userapi.com/c850724/v850724011/9f5d4/rHKnPV1vvLs.jpg) (https://pp.userapi.com/c850724/v850724011/9f5d4/rHKnPV1vvLs.jpg)
:woohoo:
man oh man i want one, i better prepare my speech to my wife as to why i need this tool
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 23, 2019, 03:42:03 PM
(https://pp.userapi.com/c850724/v850724011/9f5d4/rHKnPV1vvLs.jpg) (https://pp.userapi.com/c850724/v850724011/9f5d4/rHKnPV1vvLs.jpg)Ohhh myyyyyy! :drool:
*LM, take my money. I need that!*
Post by: Sam Lim on January 23, 2019, 03:50:05 PM
(https://pp.userapi.com/c850724/v850724011/9f5d4/rHKnPV1vvLs.jpg) (https://pp.userapi.com/c850724/v850724011/9f5d4/rHKnPV1vvLs.jpg)Ohhh myyyyyy! :drool:
*LM, take my money. I need that!*
+1!
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 23, 2019, 03:50:19 PM
Post by: Poncho65 on January 23, 2019, 03:52:50 PM
:ahhh
Post by: Wspeed on January 23, 2019, 03:54:01 PM
Post by: Poncho65 on January 23, 2019, 03:54:18 PM
:nanadance: :nanadance:
Post by: Poncho65 on January 23, 2019, 03:55:03 PM
Do we know how much this will cost us yet :think: :tu:
Nope :bnghd:
Post by: SteveC on January 23, 2019, 03:57:04 PM
Post by: Poncho65 on January 23, 2019, 03:59:14 PM
We need a pic of it closed and with the tools deployed :pok:
:iagree: That's what I meant :D
Post by: Wspeed on January 23, 2019, 03:59:27 PM
Post by: rescue4500 on January 23, 2019, 04:01:21 PM
im getting so pumped for this
Post by: balvenie on January 23, 2019, 04:09:11 PM
Post by: Skywalker on January 23, 2019, 05:28:15 PM
I'd post a link, but I can't browse #leatherman on Instagram at work.... a whole lot of leather pants at shirtless dudes. :dunno:
Post by: effjaybay on January 23, 2019, 05:32:53 PM
There is about a 30 second video of it in action on Instagram, if you search #leatherman and scroll down enough.
I'd post a link, but I can't browse #leatherman on Instagram at work.... a whole lot of leather pants at shirtless dudes. :dunno:
:rofl:
Post by: Poncho65 on January 23, 2019, 05:39:08 PM
I tried to find it guys but I couldn't take it anymore :ahhh :ahhh :ahhh
:facepalm:
Post by: effjaybay on January 23, 2019, 06:04:30 PM
Post by: rescue4500 on January 23, 2019, 06:06:00 PM
There is about a 30 second video of it in action on Instagram, if you search #leatherman and scroll down enough.
I'd post a link, but I can't browse #leatherman on Instagram at work.... a whole lot of leather pants at shirtless dudes. :dunno:
i will never look up leatherman on instagram again
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 23, 2019, 06:09:10 PM
More! MORE! :pok:
Post by: kirk13 on January 23, 2019, 06:11:16 PM
https://www.facebook.com/Leatherman.ES/videos/2377169825847635/
Interesting!
Even less impressed with the P3. Smaller folder is still meh. The big folder,as much as I'd never consider one,is interesting!
Post by: rescue4500 on January 23, 2019, 06:15:56 PM
Those are awesooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooome! :ahhh
More! MORE! :pok:
i feel like after watching the video they will be a lower line such as the rev wingman sidekick, but couldnt tell good enough, maybe ill be able to afford one after all
Post by: SteveC on January 23, 2019, 06:25:40 PM
Post by: genevabuck on January 23, 2019, 06:27:17 PM
https://www.facebook.com/Leatherman.ES/videos/2377169825847635/
I am speechless. :drool:
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 23, 2019, 06:52:41 PM
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 23, 2019, 07:03:39 PM
Post by: Fuzzbucket on January 23, 2019, 07:06:31 PM
You brokw the forum. :twak:
Is it just me or has the layout gone all funny? Kirky!!! :ahhh
Post by: Fuzzbucket on January 23, 2019, 07:07:35 PM
https://www.facebook.com/Leatherman.ES/videos/2377169825847635/
Interesting!
Even less impressed with the P3. Smaller folder is still meh. The big folder,as much as I'd never consider one,is interesting!
What an infuriating video! :rant:
Post by: Fuzzbucket on January 23, 2019, 07:08:26 PM
Post by: kirk13 on January 23, 2019, 07:15:53 PM
Now I've smurfed it up big time! :facepalm::fuzzy: !
Damn! No I blame Fuzzbucket emoji!
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 23, 2019, 07:16:21 PM
Post by: Wspeed on January 23, 2019, 07:17:28 PM
Post by: Fuzzbucket on January 23, 2019, 07:24:26 PM
Now I've smurfed it up big time! :facepalm::fuzzy: !
Damn! No I blame Fuzzbucket emoji!
No no no... no! You smurfed it up waaaayyy before I smurfed it up!
Post by: Fuzzbucket on January 23, 2019, 07:26:22 PM
Post by: ThePeacent on January 23, 2019, 07:31:19 PM
Anybody want me to translate it? :dunno:
Post by: Skywalker on January 23, 2019, 07:40:05 PM
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bs_ECcrBfm3/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=d8pn9b0w3og5
Post by: ThePeacent on January 23, 2019, 07:44:05 PM
"Hi all. First I am going to show a bit of the new stuff Leatherman has prepared for this Spring
First, as you can see, we have changed the Logo, to give it a more modern look, and that it really develops the concept of "mulituse", and I'd like to show you the new LM collection.
LM invites us to "unlearn" the tools, forget what you know about tools, with the Free collection, here we have a small sample.
Firstly, ergonomics, the ease of opening and closing the implements with a single hand, without need of fingernails or looking at the tool. Fully useable with one hand, all outside accessible implements, we also have totally new locks, and new feature. magnets. the tools hold in place thanks to patented magnets (25 year warranty) They retain the tools closed, stiffly and firm but are very easy to disengage with the finger force. No shaking them out by accident.
Showing here the T2 tool and the T4 tool, different uses in each. T2 is slimmer, and lighter. The free collection has six models (T2 and T4), there's also the models P2 and P4 (appearing on screen now), with the same magnet system and locks, and finally the models K2 and K4 (knives), (K4 shown first) both with new locks and easily OHO opened exterior tools
This is a very small part of what Leatherman has coming out this Spring, I hope you enjoyed these and we'll soon have them available in Spain, saluting you from Las Vegas "
Post by: Wspeed on January 23, 2019, 07:47:29 PM
Post by: cody6268 on January 23, 2019, 07:51:05 PM
Post by: SteveC on January 23, 2019, 07:55:51 PM
Petersenshunting on Instagram has a short video. I have to believe Blade HQ will upload a proper detailed video overview by the end of the day.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bs_ECcrBfm3/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=d8pn9b0w3og5
He called it the P2 so he has me wondering, is there a P2 and a P3 Supertool size ? :think:
Post by: SteveC on January 23, 2019, 07:56:44 PM
Post by: AlephZero on January 23, 2019, 07:57:20 PM
Post by: rescue4500 on January 23, 2019, 07:58:07 PM
Petersenshunting on Instagram has a short video. I have to believe Blade HQ will upload a proper detailed video overview by the end of the day.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bs_ECcrBfm3/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=d8pn9b0w3og5
He called it the P2 so he has me wondering, is there a P2 and a P3 Supertool size ? :think:
i was wondering the same thing
Post by: genevabuck on January 23, 2019, 07:58:48 PM
Post by: ThePeacent on January 23, 2019, 08:41:55 PM
He called it the P2 so he has me wondering, is there a P2 and a P3 Supertool size ? :think:
T2 and T4 (mid sized tools), P2 and P4 (big size), K2 and K4 (knives, no pliers based).
all locking, one handed outside accessible tools, and magnets to hold them closed
Post by: SteveC on January 23, 2019, 08:48:47 PM
He called it the P2 so he has me wondering, is there a P2 and a P3 Supertool size ? :think:
T2 and T4 (mid sized tools), P2 and P4 (big size), K2 and K4 (knives, no pliers based).
all locking, one handed outside accessible tools, and magnets to hold them closed
So three sizes....
Clearly says P3 on this tool
(https://pp.userapi.com/c846219/v846219410/186047/8OWfTqla8OE.jpg)
Post by: Poncho65 on January 23, 2019, 09:40:42 PM
And it is for sure not from looking at Instagram :rofl:
So cool that so many tools and knives may be released :drool: and they don't just look like half tools similar to last years stuff :dd: :like:
Post by: Syncop8r on January 23, 2019, 09:42:30 PM
All I can see is the brief Instagram video - thanks for putting that up. :tu:
The design looks like something I have been wanting for a while... apart from the 2D phillips...
Post by: rescue4500 on January 23, 2019, 09:51:35 PM
Post by: LoopCutter on January 23, 2019, 09:52:34 PM
The video demonstration includes the details - "the best tool Leatherman has ever made", high hoped for this model.
My ST300 opens to the pliers very smoothly, most time with one hand. With outside knife and other tools that are easy to deploy, my work SS WAVE may be rotated out for a newer model down the road.
Yet, I will not hold my breath, as it seems to take LM a lonnnnng time to gear production for new releases. Last year it was almost 6 months for the new knives. A more detailed MT assembly may be even longer????
Post by: rescue4500 on January 23, 2019, 09:57:05 PM
Post by: Poncho65 on January 23, 2019, 10:03:26 PM
120 MSRP ON THE P2 :-\
That means the actual price will be lower.....hopefully :D
Post by: Poncho65 on January 23, 2019, 10:05:36 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/jzn5bBEfrjdxm/giphy.gif)
After the Blade HQ video I am more excited about these than anything from LM in a long time :ahhh :ahhh
Just hope the final price is a bit lower than the MSRP ::) :whistle:
Post by: rescue4500 on January 23, 2019, 10:09:46 PM
Post by: LoopCutter on January 23, 2019, 10:13:14 PM
The knives are interesting, going head to head with SAK implements.
Post by: SteveC on January 23, 2019, 10:36:48 PM
Post by: effjaybay on January 23, 2019, 10:47:35 PM
He called it the P2 so he has me wondering, is there a P2 and a P3 Supertool size ? :think:
T2 and T4 (mid sized tools), P2 and P4 (big size), K2 and K4 (knives, no pliers based).
all locking, one handed outside accessible tools, and magnets to hold them closed
So three sizes....
Clearly says P3 on this tool
(https://pp.userapi.com/c846219/v846219410/186047/8OWfTqla8OE.jpg)
From what I saw in the video, P2 and P4 stands for the amount of tools you can access with the MT in the closed position? :dunno:
Post by: mcb on January 23, 2019, 10:54:02 PM
Post by: Etherealicer on January 23, 2019, 10:55:08 PM
No bit driver?No metal file?
other than that... it's exciting.
Post by: mcb on January 23, 2019, 10:58:51 PM
No bit driver?No metal file?
other than that... it's exciting.
It's not doing it for me. I like the pliers and one hand opening tools but the lack of a bit driver makes it weak and unlikely to replace my Surge.
Post by: Poncho65 on January 23, 2019, 11:03:03 PM
No bit driver?No metal file?
other than that... it's exciting.
One of them has a tiny file :think: No bit driver either :ahhh I am just hoping the bit adapter fits on the Phillips :think: seems to me as though the tools on them are very similar to the tools on the Wingman/Sidekick series :think: I really :like: the idea of the magnets holding it together as well but I just wonder how it will hold up ??? Time will only tell for this I guess :cheers: I hope that the knives are up to par as well, I really do :like: the tool compliment that they have and can't wait to see how these stack up against other MTs and other LM :salute:
Post by: SteveC on January 23, 2019, 11:08:41 PM
Post by: gregpost on January 23, 2019, 11:14:51 PM
The T series doesn't interest me at this point, neither does the K series. I can imagine Leatherman doing titanium scale and upgrade steels on both these series...
Post by: pa_strunk on January 23, 2019, 11:43:04 PM
Post by: SteveC on January 23, 2019, 11:45:37 PM
Post by: mcb on January 23, 2019, 11:48:06 PM
No saw either :(
P4 has a saw. Start watching the video at about 4:40
Post by: Poncho65 on January 23, 2019, 11:56:57 PM
Two questions, where are the proprietary bits and what is modding going to be like in the future?
I am sure that there will be some interesting mods with these :tu: hoping that the magnet system doesn't hinder modding though :think:
Post by: Poncho65 on January 23, 2019, 11:58:15 PM
No saw either :(
P4 has a saw. Start watching the video at about 4:40
I remember the saw in there but didn't know where :salute: if the bits are interchangeable with Wingman and Sidekick then perhaps one could be added to other models as well :like:
:nanadance: :nanadance:
Post by: Fuzzbucket on January 23, 2019, 11:59:58 PM
I was really quite enthusiastic about these tools when I saw the initial image there, but now I've got a really niggling feeling these tools, while they look visually impressive and super photogenic at the moment, will turn out to be quite flimsy and cheap.
Sorry to be so negative... I could well be wrong.
Post by: Poncho65 on January 24, 2019, 12:03:28 AM
Post by: Fuzzbucket on January 24, 2019, 12:08:43 AM
Post by: microbe on January 24, 2019, 12:26:59 AM
As for the knives, I still prefer a nail nick SAK and a dedicated knife with better steel combo.
Post by: Gareth on January 24, 2019, 12:32:09 AM
Hmmm..."plastic is as plastic does" (Forrest Gump voice). :facepalm:
I remember the same concerns about the Zytel in the Blast/Fuse etc. but I don't recall it ever being a real issue in use. Certainly wasn't for me anyway.
I'm more concerned about the Wingman looking tools if I'm honest. I find them acceptable on a more budget friendly MT, but they are definitely poorer than some of the screwdrivers you'll find on older LM or on the Rebar.
Talking of the Rebar; can we honestly see LM making these as well as the Rebar in the long term? :think:
Post by: Poncho65 on January 24, 2019, 12:36:02 AM
Post by: Fuzzbucket on January 24, 2019, 12:38:08 AM
Hmmm..."plastic is as plastic does" (Forrest Gump voice). :facepalm:
I remember the same concerns about the Zytel in the Blast/Fuse etc. but I don't recall it ever being a real issue in use. Certainly wasn't for me anyway.
I'm more concerned about the Wingman looking tools if I'm honest. I find them acceptable on a more budget friendly MT, but they are definitely poorer than some of the screwdrivers you'll find on older LM or on the Rebar.
Talking of the Rebar; can we honestly see LM making these as well as the Rebar in the long term? :think:
That is true.
Post by: Fuzzbucket on January 24, 2019, 12:40:26 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 24, 2019, 01:56:44 AM
They need to keep the old style Rebar, ST300, Wave, Surge, etc. Mainly because some of us aren't going to want to learn a completely new style of tool. The ones I will be buying are destined to be shelf queens. :facepalm:
Post by: gregpost on January 24, 2019, 02:11:29 AM
Same boat as you guys. They look awesome and seem to be notably different than most current tools. If the quality is there, they may have a winner. I just hope some of them come with a bit holder like the Wave and Surge. I've got $100 worth of bits. :rofl:
They need to keep the old style Rebar, ST300, Wave, Surge, etc. Mainly because some of us aren't going to want to learn a completely new style of tool. The ones I will be buying are destined to be shelf queens. :facepalm:
I seriously doubt they would stop making the Supertool or Wave line anytime soon. The guy in the video even said they're keeping all the older classic designs. They're probably already kicking around ideas for the ST400 or whatever it will be called.
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 24, 2019, 02:14:29 AM
Thanks for the heads up. I couldn't watch the vids earlier, because I was at work. Going to watch them now. :)
Post by: chris777 on January 24, 2019, 06:09:19 AM
On the other I'm disappointed that the actual tools don't look any better than the half useless stuff on the sidekick\wingman.
But I am extremely excited to see LM actually innovating again, even if it does seem a bit off.
One final thing. It's time to upgrade the knife blade steel LM.
Post by: NKlamerus on January 24, 2019, 06:47:23 AM
Agreed with above, it's the quality of the implements I'm worried about, I don't think they will stand up to a modded Charge with VIC scissors (best in the industry IMO) and a S30V blade. Definitely going to miss the old bit drivers as well.
Do you think the price of the older stuff will go up or down?
Post by: ddogu on January 24, 2019, 06:53:22 AM
Magnets are brittle, so every drop of the tool can shatter the magnets and make the tool unusable/prone to accidental openings now?
Maybe more importantly, magnets are gonna collect all kinds of metal dust and splinters :/ ??? ???
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 24, 2019, 06:54:52 AM
So much stuff! The crater pales in comparison to those knives. Lots of nice stuff. Not just one multi-tool, which is nice. And the Leatherman Army Knives look nice too.
I appreciate the effort and innovation that led to a whole new line of tools. I am a little worried about the magnets and the handles being floppy, and the implements coming out a little too easily, and that the implements look just a little nicer than Wingman stuff, but so far, I am still excited.
The question is, can these be shipped to Mordor? :think:
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 24, 2019, 06:57:26 AM
Am I the only who frowned when the guy mentioned "magnets"?
Magnets are brittle, so every drop of the tool can shatter the magnets and make the tool unusable/prone to accidental openings now?
Maybe more importantly, magnets are gonna collect all kinds of metal dust and splinters :/ ??? ???
:iagree:
The tools have locks on them anyway, why not have the locking system act as detent when they're closed? Like most multi-tools do already. No need for magnets.
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 24, 2019, 07:00:23 AM
The magnets are the only thing I feel would prohibit me using one at work. Too much steel wool stuff everywhere. I have to demagnetize my current EDC tools as it is. :ahhh
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 24, 2019, 07:01:43 AM
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 24, 2019, 07:13:14 AM
Post by: jaya_man on January 24, 2019, 07:21:58 AM
The P series got my attention... Vic style can opener...even has the similar package opener/wire stripper similar to the Swisstool range...
Lighter and more condensed... but 2D phillips?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: jaya_man on January 24, 2019, 11:30:22 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190124/4edef3adf0ac6d1eedbaf69b460bf7ad.jpg)
I care less about the new logo... It’s new MTs and quality that I want :cheers:
Post by: AlephZero on January 24, 2019, 11:53:37 AM
Does this look familiar? Somebody posted this over on FB...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190124/4edef3adf0ac6d1eedbaf69b460bf7ad.jpg)
I care less about the new logo... It’s new MTs and quality that I want :cheers:
It does look familiar... ::)
:D
Post by: Syncop8r on January 24, 2019, 11:57:29 AM
Post by: Raoul Octav on January 24, 2019, 12:13:34 PM
I'm kinda not happy with the "thikness" of some tools, not much resistance over there, and also the tools are not oriented towards laptop/glasses electronics or to motorcycle/car/adv , they are somewhere in between with no real use except as a sidehelper
The magnets they use are neodim magnets, cleaning is now REQUIERED,
I like the fact they seem so "loose" for the use, yet the given tolerance plus time use, plus grit and and and... i'm curios how well they'll hold on time.
MY2CENTS
Ahhh...prices are kinda high for the P series,
Post by: Poncho65 on January 24, 2019, 12:16:15 PM
Overall though :popcorn:
Post by: Gareth on January 24, 2019, 12:23:08 PM
(https://forum.multitool.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=80374.0;attach=418816)
:D
Post by: Etherealicer on January 24, 2019, 12:30:25 PM
The question is, can these be shipped to Mordor? :think:And how many of your children's livers you have to sell (I assume your own you already sold) to get one. If we are lucky we can get it at MSRP.
Post by: Etherealicer on January 24, 2019, 12:42:39 PM
I think that the magnets will be one of those things that have to be out in the world and be given real world testing to see whether they will stand the test of time :cheers: I will save my judgement on them and see how good or bad they end up being once they are finally released :tu: but I do worry about how strong they are and whether they might affect data on a USB stick or SD card :think: :dunno: :(:tu:
Overall though :popcorn:
They look good.
Only thing I miss so far is the diamond file, for me that is one of LM's biggest trumps over Vic. Also, P2 is $120, wonder how much P4 is going to be?
Also, the guy is funny... "set it apart is that you can open a knife with your left or right hand"... He never held a Wave I guess :rofl:
Post by: Poncho65 on January 24, 2019, 01:00:32 PM
I think that the magnets will be one of those things that have to be out in the world and be given real world testing to see whether they will stand the test of time :cheers: I will save my judgement on them and see how good or bad they end up being once they are finally released :tu: but I do worry about how strong they are and whether they might affect data on a USB stick or SD card :think: :dunno: :(:tu:
Overall though :popcorn:
They look good.
Only thing I miss so far is the diamond file, for me that is one of LM's biggest trumps over Vic. Also, P2 is $120, wonder how much P4 is going to be?
Also, the guy is funny... "set it apart is that you can open a knife with your left or right hand"... He never held a Wave I guess :rofl:
Or a SURGE or a Charge ::) :facepalm:
:rofl:
Post by: Poncho65 on January 24, 2019, 01:02:48 PM
Post by: Etherealicer on January 24, 2019, 01:11:40 PM
Maybe he means that both blades are now on one handle, whereas before they were on different handles... But if you are that limited with your off-hand, then you won't be able to open the other tools. It's like.... sorry right-handed guys, but you can only use the PE blade, the serrated is for lefties only.I think that the magnets will be one of those things that have to be out in the world and be given real world testing to see whether they will stand the test of time :cheers: I will save my judgement on them and see how good or bad they end up being once they are finally released :tu: but I do worry about how strong they are and whether they might affect data on a USB stick or SD card :think: :dunno: :(:tu:
Overall though :popcorn:
They look good.
Only thing I miss so far is the diamond file, for me that is one of LM's biggest trumps over Vic. Also, P2 is $120, wonder how much P4 is going to be?
Also, the guy is funny... "set it apart is that you can open a knife with your left or right hand"... He never held a Wave I guess :rofl:
Or a SURGE or a Charge ::) :facepalm:
:rofl:
Post by: Kev D on January 24, 2019, 01:43:14 PM
Post by: balvenie on January 24, 2019, 01:44:21 PM
Post by: Poncho65 on January 24, 2019, 02:52:40 PM
Maybe he means that both blades are now on one handle, whereas before they were on different handles... But if you are that limited with your off-hand, then you won't be able to open the other tools. It's like.... sorry right-handed guys, but you can only use the PE blade, the serrated is for lefties only.I think that the magnets will be one of those things that have to be out in the world and be given real world testing to see whether they will stand the test of time :cheers: I will save my judgement on them and see how good or bad they end up being once they are finally released :tu: but I do worry about how strong they are and whether they might affect data on a USB stick or SD card :think: :dunno: :(:tu:
Overall though :popcorn:
They look good.
Only thing I miss so far is the diamond file, for me that is one of LM's biggest trumps over Vic. Also, P2 is $120, wonder how much P4 is going to be?
Also, the guy is funny... "set it apart is that you can open a knife with your left or right hand"... He never held a Wave I guess :rofl:
Or a SURGE or a Charge ::) :facepalm:
:rofl:
I will give it to them, they thought about the lefties for once :D
Post by: SteveC on January 24, 2019, 03:48:06 PM
Post by: Max Stone on January 24, 2019, 04:03:37 PM
“I’m attracted to you, but you’re too tight!” :facepalm:
Post by: Old Boy on January 24, 2019, 04:06:16 PM
Plus I’ve have knives open up in my pocket slightly, I would immediately switch to a different knife until I settled on one, a back lock. Seems like it may happen with this one too.
Post by: Poncho65 on January 24, 2019, 04:19:45 PM
Because everyone will know it's the best MT money can buy in the industry because it's in a grey Nylon sheath, not black not leather but this sweet grey Nylon sheath the Free will be known for. :rofl:
Yeah that part made me :facepalm: a bit ::) I really like grey but that sheath just doesn't call to me :D sure doesn't scream quality to me like the new CD leather sheath that Gerber just released :dd:
Post by: tommywp on January 24, 2019, 05:04:34 PM
Post by: Ryo Saeba on January 24, 2019, 05:05:53 PM
I do agree that the puny file doesn't make me like these as much either :-\ I do wish they would put the diamond file on every LM :bnghd: :D
They probably had to skip the wave file to get the made in USA stamp since I think those were imported.
Post by: gadgetman7 on January 24, 2019, 06:02:56 PM
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: badwolf on January 24, 2019, 06:29:34 PM
(https://imgtc.com/i/7eKBwkh.jpg)
Post by: Fortytwo on January 24, 2019, 06:42:49 PM
Is the computer magnet thing a real concern? Most tablets with styluses use magnets to attach them to the side.
In the olden days the screens were a concern but that's ages ago. A tablet will have a solid state drive but a laptop or stationary computer may have a disk hard drive that can be destroyed by magnets.
Post by: Aloha on January 24, 2019, 06:48:56 PM
Bit holder would be neat in those.
Post by: Aloha on January 24, 2019, 06:53:11 PM
Because everyone will know it's the best MT money can buy in the industry because it's in a grey Nylon sheath, not black not leather but this sweet grey Nylon sheath the Free will be known for. :rofl:
I immediately thought of Maxpediton new color scheme.
Post by: gregpost on January 24, 2019, 07:29:34 PM
Leatherman is missing an opportunity to let people select which of the 4 outside opening tools they want, or making different versions. While I don't pretend to know what the logistics of that would be and how they would market that, you simply have people who want a saw, or prefer or file, or have been used to the Surge/Wingman format of having a very handy scissor. It would be cool for Leatherman to give people that choice like they did with the Wingman and Sidekick.
Post by: AlephZero on January 24, 2019, 07:33:31 PM
Is the computer magnet thing a real concern? Most tablets with styluses use magnets to attach them to the side.
Tablets don't usually have hard drives in the so no problem with those, most real computers however still usually have hard drives so it _could_ be and issue, but I highly doubt it
Post by: pomsbz on January 24, 2019, 07:51:25 PM
No bit tool? Really? If it wasn't for the bit tool I'd own a Swisstool right now.
Victorinox style can opener? Nooooooo. I don't like that style at all. Give me a combo style that opens cans backwards any day.
Anything about what steel the blade is in the P4?
I honestly don't thing this is going to replace any of the old style tools. Looks like a fancy Wingman but not much more.
Post by: Ryo Saeba on January 24, 2019, 08:09:30 PM
Post by: Syncop8r on January 24, 2019, 08:15:49 PM
They are on different handles but the PE opens with the thumb of the right hand and the SE opens with the thumb of the left hand. What he means is that if you just want to deploy any knife you can OHO one whether you are right- or left-handed.Maybe he means that both blades are now on one handle, whereas before they were on different handles... But if you are that limited with your off-hand, then you won't be able to open the other tools. It's like.... sorry right-handed guys, but you can only use the PE blade, the serrated is for lefties only.Also, the guy is funny... "set it apart is that you can open a knife with your left or right hand"... He never held a Wave I guess :rofl:
Or a SURGE or a Charge ::) :facepalm:
:rofl:
Of course you can open any tool in one hand by using either your thumb on the top or your middle finger from underneath.
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on January 24, 2019, 08:16:57 PM
Looking at that Youtube Clip I notitced that, while trying to open/close the tool one handed, the guy fom Blade.HQ lightly tabs the tool on the desk, and right away all the outside opening tools pop out (all but the blade it seems, after looking at it at 0.25 x speed). Check it out, it happens right about 4.40s in the video.
But like said before, these are prototypes so maybe they have some "bugs" in them.
And the knives are not for me, too thick and bulky in my opinion, I still prefer the style of the Crater knives (and even more, the Expanse knives) after watching the video. But I'll still have a look at them in real life when I have the chance in the future. And if my initial thoughts on them would be proven wrong by then, I'll be happy to admit I got it wrong :D.
Post by: Fuzzbucket on January 24, 2019, 09:11:29 PM
I will surely have a close look at that Free P4 once it finds its way to stores over here, but I am a bit concerned about those magnets ...
Looking at that Youtube Clip I notitced that, while trying to open/close the tool one handed, the guy fom Blade.HQ lightly tabs the tool on the desk, and right away all the outside opening tools pop out (all but the blade it seems, after looking at it at 0.25 x speed). Check it out, it happens right about 4.40s in the video.
But like said before, these are prototypes so maybe they have some "bugs" in them.
And the knives are not for me, too thick and bulky in my opinion, I still prefer the style of the Crater knives (and even more, the Expanse knives) after watching the video. But I'll still have a look at them in real life when I have the chance in the future. And if my initial thoughts on them would be proven wrong by then, I'll be happy to admit I got it wrong :D.
I saw that, it happens a couple of other times too, I think at one point it even happens when he flips it open.
Post by: Fuzzbucket on January 24, 2019, 09:12:54 PM
They are on different handles but the PE opens with the thumb of the right hand and the SE opens with the thumb of the left hand. What he means is that if you just want to deploy any knife you can OHO one whether you are right- or left-handed.Maybe he means that both blades are now on one handle, whereas before they were on different handles... But if you are that limited with your off-hand, then you won't be able to open the other tools. It's like.... sorry right-handed guys, but you can only use the PE blade, the serrated is for lefties only.Also, the guy is funny... "set it apart is that you can open a knife with your left or right hand"... He never held a Wave I guess :rofl:
Or a SURGE or a Charge ::) :facepalm:
:rofl:
Of course you can open any tool in one hand by using either your thumb on the top or your middle finger from underneath.
Here you go peeps, I grabbed the holding image and zoomed in a bit etc so you can see the layout.
(http://u.cubeupload.com/Fuzzbucket/D6B744BD035B4101ACF1.jpeg)
Post by: Aloha on January 24, 2019, 09:16:22 PM
Post by: gregpost on January 24, 2019, 09:28:28 PM
Its a Wingman. :woohoo:
Does it have springs for the pliers, or did I miss that?
They mentioned a non-metallic spring system for the pliers deploying but are they for the opening and closing spring action or the deployment. I was confused about that.
Post by: Max Stone on January 24, 2019, 09:29:07 PM
I am concerned that each tool's pivot diameter is now smaller (not the hole, the cam), so the base of the tool could now be weaker?
I am also concerned that the axle of each tool is no longer sandwiched tightly between its neighbors, so it no longer benefits from the support this gives?
Not trying to poke holes in what's clearly an exciting product, but these design changes are a departure from their current models.
Post by: Aloha on January 24, 2019, 09:31:26 PM
Post by: Max Stone on January 24, 2019, 09:33:43 PM
Post by: Aloha on January 24, 2019, 09:40:40 PM
Post by: gregpost on January 24, 2019, 09:42:29 PM
Whats interesting is the development of what was an entry level MT. One step back with the Rev and it seems one step "forward" with this tool. I might be seeing this wrong. I dont recall if a price point was given?
I don't think this started with the Wingman as a platform. They could have just improved the Wingman/Sidekick. I think they used some Wingman style "inside tools" simple because they take up less space and are very functional. That being said I hope they improve and continue the Wingman and Sidekick platform because it's a great format with even more potential to be better.
They way the video describes this tool is like the future of Leatherman. The Wingman was promoted and marketed as a everyday useful multitool for not a lot of money, down to the comical and not taking itself too seriously youtube adverts. Maybe it was just the Blade HQ ShotShow video but this was being presented as the best thing Leatherman has designed: "strongest pliers ever", "easiest one hand operation", an evolution of the multitool and a product that none of their competitors had an answer to...
Post by: gregpost on January 25, 2019, 02:23:04 AM
Pliers fully close on resting unlike a Wingman/Sidekick. So i'm still confused as to what the non-metallic spring does.
Post by: gadgetman7 on January 25, 2019, 02:36:30 AM
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: cody6268 on January 25, 2019, 03:27:53 AM
Am I the only one that thinks this is a midrange tool that’s way overpriced? No bit driver, 420HC steel, a useless file, no saw on one of the models and magnets. I hope Leatherman doesn’t go down this path. Im sorry but it looks kind of crappy to me.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Nope. Me too. The magnets and Sidekick/Wingman/Rev type internals was what killed it for me. And at that MSRP, it's edging into the territory of models such as the Charge, Surge, and Signal, that in a lot of ways, are far superior.
Post by: matt2silver on January 25, 2019, 03:41:15 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 25, 2019, 04:17:24 AM
Am I the only one that thinks this is a midrange tool that’s way overpriced? No bit driver, 420HC steel, a useless file, no saw on one of the models and magnets. I hope Leatherman doesn’t go down this path. Im sorry but it looks kind of crappy to me.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 25, 2019, 05:01:29 AM
Post by: chrono on January 25, 2019, 05:31:30 AM
Post by: VICMAN on January 25, 2019, 12:30:59 PM
Pliers fully close on resting unlike a Wingman/Sidekick. So i'm still confused as to what the non-metallic spring does.
Thanks for sharing the video greg! :like: :tu: :tu:
Post by: ThePeacent on January 25, 2019, 01:29:24 PM
borrow a feature from sog, and add a tool all at the same time. Wonder if it would have been a patent issue? Oh well, seems like a missed opportunity.
well, it looks like they didn't miss that opportunity at all to me. The new plier heads look awfully similar to those of SOG (especially the PowerLock, Powerassist...) :dunno:
Post by: LoopCutter on January 25, 2019, 02:19:55 PM
Collectors will buy, but that profit will not keep the lights on. The next generation will buy these in the USA because they are made in the USA
A better offering this SHOT than the last few years.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: rescue4500 on January 25, 2019, 02:36:12 PM
Post by: Ombudsman on January 25, 2019, 04:37:55 PM
They have been sitting on the Bear Jaws (https://patents.google.com/patent/US5697114A/en?oq=US5697114A) patent for almost 20 years :facepalm:
(http://cachitos.com/Bearjaws.jpg)
Post by: Max Stone on January 25, 2019, 05:31:51 PM
Post by: Mechanickal on January 25, 2019, 05:36:39 PM
Actually the Wave in 1998, so outside opening nothing new for LM. Bears patent long expired.The Wave isn't all outside opening...
Post by: Ombudsman on January 25, 2019, 06:15:00 PM
Actually the Wave in 1998, so outside opening nothing new for LM. Bears patent long expired.The Wave isn't all outside opening...
Indeed ! now that they finally embraced the all outside opening philosophy, lets hope they push it forward ( or downward ? :think: ) to the juice line.
Post by: Max Stone on January 25, 2019, 06:29:16 PM
Actually the Wave in 1998, so outside opening nothing new for LM. Bears patent long expired.The Wave isn't all outside opening...
Sure ;), but the patent https://patents.google.com/patent/US5697114?oq=5697114 (https://patents.google.com/patent/US5697114?oq=5697114) was not for all tools to be on the outside:
"... at least one tool pivotally mounted...being received in said open sides of said handles..."
Leatherman could have done a Bears copy years ago, but the design was flawed, as I wrote about here: https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,80241.msg1846015.html#msg1846015 (https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,80241.msg1846015.html#msg1846015)
Post by: Mechanickal on January 25, 2019, 06:31:13 PM
Post by: Ombudsman on January 25, 2019, 07:17:49 PM
Actually the Wave in 1998, so outside opening nothing new for LM. Bears patent long expired.The Wave isn't all outside opening...
Sure ;), but the patent https://patents.google.com/patent/US5697114?oq=5697114 (https://patents.google.com/patent/US5697114?oq=5697114) was not for all tools to be on the outside:
"... at least one tool pivotally mounted...being received in said open sides of said handles..."
Leatherman could have done a Bears copy years ago, but the design was flawed, as I wrote about here: https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,80241.msg1846015.html#msg1846015 (https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,80241.msg1846015.html#msg1846015)
Whoa ! Great read and excellent insight, Max
Thanks for the info :salute:
Post by: ThePeacent on January 25, 2019, 07:35:44 PM
im going for the p4 being an outdoorsman im always in need of a saw
(https://i.imgur.com/w7IOS4N.gif)
Post by: rescue4500 on January 25, 2019, 07:43:15 PM
im going for the p4 being an outdoorsman im always in need of a saw
(https://i.imgur.com/w7IOS4N.gif)
:rofl:
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 25, 2019, 07:51:24 PM
im going for the p4 being an outdoorsman im always in need of a saw
(https://i.imgur.com/w7IOS4N.gif)
The scissors are backwards. The can opener too, but it can still function. Saw opens from opposite end of handle. :twak: :rant:
Post by: Max Stone on January 25, 2019, 10:51:24 PM
Actually the Wave in 1998, so outside opening nothing new for LM. Bears patent long expired.The Wave isn't all outside opening...
Sure ;), but the patent https://patents.google.com/patent/US5697114?oq=5697114 (https://patents.google.com/patent/US5697114?oq=5697114) was not for all tools to be on the outside:
"... at least one tool pivotally mounted...being received in said open sides of said handles..."
Leatherman could have done a Bears copy years ago, but the design was flawed, as I wrote about here: https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,80241.msg1846015.html#msg1846015 (https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,80241.msg1846015.html#msg1846015)
Whoa ! Great read and excellent insight, Max
Thanks for the info :salute:
Thanks Ombudsman :hatsoff:
Post by: gregpost on January 26, 2019, 01:59:59 AM
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.gearjunkie.com/uploads/2019/01/Leatherman-Moto_Selects-8835.jpg)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.gearjunkie.com/uploads/2019/01/Leatherman-Moto_Selects-91771.jpg)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.gearjunkie.com/uploads/2019/01/P26_P2_Fanned_2-768x540.jpg)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.gearjunkie.com/uploads/2019/01/P26_T4_Fanned-930x696.jpg)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.gearjunkie.com/uploads/2019/01/P26_K2_Gray_Fanned-768x284.jpg)
Post by: gregpost on January 26, 2019, 03:20:22 AM
(https://www.backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Leatherman.jpg)
One thing I notice on the pliers above the replaceable cutter is the gripping area looks much flatter than current Leatherman multitools, even ones with replaceable cutters. Hope it's just bad perspective of the photos.
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 26, 2019, 03:24:55 AM
Photo courtesy of backwoodshome.comJust checked it against the Wave+ and Charge+. As much as I can with photo of the P. The new pliers are meatier than the Wave+/Charge+ pliers. Maybe 1/16" at the insert area if the jaws are of similar size. The huge new pivot on the P series makes the perspective a little odd.
(https://www.backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Leatherman.jpg)
One thing I notice on the pliers above the replaceable cutter is the gripping area looks much smaller than current Leatherman multitools, even ones with replaceable cutters. Hope it's just bad perspective of the photos.
Post by: gregpost on January 26, 2019, 03:36:31 AM
Post by: rdub934 on January 26, 2019, 07:26:52 AM
I've thought for years that LM has been missing out by not offering a SAK-like product. I can't say I see myself getting the FreeT, but it's a great idea.
Post by: jaya_man on January 26, 2019, 10:01:41 AM
https://youtu.be/iT90YrtFxfM
https://youtu.be/EaC37BMGxPA
If I deduced it correctly, the P2 has two large implements, combo edge blade and scissors... while the P4 has 4 large implements, plain edge blade, serrated blade, scissors and wood saw... All implements looks highly polished and looks sturdier than implements found on other LMs...
P4 definitely catches my attention... just need to wait for official reviews... or I might just grab one...
Post by: hellsing on January 26, 2019, 11:12:23 AM
Am I the only one that thinks this is a midrange tool that’s way overpriced? No bit driver, 420HC steel, a useless file, no saw on one of the models and magnets. I hope Leatherman doesn’t go down this path. Im sorry but it looks kind of crappy to me.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I fell the same, the MSRP is very high. For the price I can have a good cordless drill!
Post by: Max Stone on January 26, 2019, 11:41:48 AM
Am I the only one that thinks this is a midrange tool that’s way overpriced? No bit driver, 420HC steel, a useless file, no saw on one of the models and magnets. I hope Leatherman doesn’t go down this path. Im sorry but it looks kind of crappy to me.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I fell the same, the MSRP is very high. For the price I can have a good cordless drill!
LM are going to sell bucket-loads of these...people are going to love the shiny bling, 'free' swinging action and OHO. Perfect for all those lifestyle users and retail stores...
Post by: hellsing on January 26, 2019, 11:52:06 AM
As a MT addict i will probably get it one day or another.
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 26, 2019, 11:55:07 AM
and those awls do not seem very sharp.
Can-opener-wise, I prefer the Leatherman claw, but they went with a Vic style, but without the flathead.
Also, if you're going with the fixed Phillips, why not have the awesome Rebar one, to be able to have the bit adapter as well?
I might get the P4, not a fan of combo blades so the P2 is out.
Is there a P3 or not? :think:
Post by: Syncop8r on January 26, 2019, 11:56:19 AM
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 26, 2019, 12:07:25 PM
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 26, 2019, 12:08:39 PM
Post by: badwolf on January 26, 2019, 12:09:39 PM
I reckon once we've all had a good play with the flip opening balisong action there will be no going back :multi:
Post by: Wspeed on January 26, 2019, 12:50:47 PM
Post by: badwolf on January 26, 2019, 02:16:05 PM
:oops: repost :facepalm:
Post by: Max Stone on January 26, 2019, 04:18:10 PM
Post by: Wspeed on January 26, 2019, 04:21:01 PM
Post by: Poncho65 on January 26, 2019, 04:23:34 PM
Post by: ddogu on January 26, 2019, 04:24:09 PM
I do agree that the puny file doesn't make me like these as much either :-\ I do wish they would put the diamond file on every LM :bnghd: :D
:iagree:
Post by: ddogu on January 26, 2019, 04:27:03 PM
Is the computer magnet thing a real concern? Most tablets with styluses use magnets to attach them to the side.
For magnetic storage (like harddiscs) and screens this might be an issue depending on the "strength" of the magnet inside. I do think they tested for this, tho.
Post by: stugumby on January 26, 2019, 05:26:38 PM
Post by: chrono on January 26, 2019, 05:35:49 PM
I don’t like the look of the tools as they don’t look the same quality :think:
:iagree:
Post by: badwolf on January 26, 2019, 05:45:44 PM
Post by: Etherealicer on January 26, 2019, 05:54:44 PM
And that is how you earn money (which is kinda the point of any company). And not by selling them at a low price to people who use them hard, then demand warranty replacement.Am I the only one that thinks this is a midrange tool that’s way overpriced? No bit driver, 420HC steel, a useless file, no saw on one of the models and magnets. I hope Leatherman doesn’t go down this path. Im sorry but it looks kind of crappy to me.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I fell the same, the MSRP is very high. For the price I can have a good cordless drill!
LM are going to sell bucket-loads of these...people are going to love the shiny bling, 'free' swinging action and OHO. Perfect for all those lifestyle users and retail stores...
Victorinox sells perfume, cloth and luggage... Gerber sells gear for the Zombie apocalypse...
The EDC crowd is larger, more willing to spend money and less hard on the tools. Basically the perfect customers for LM. Next step is to release a video showing a special-force-green-seal-navy-beret-operator how use the P4 for self-defense.
Post by: Max Stone on January 26, 2019, 06:13:58 PM
And that is how you earn money (which is kinda the point of any company). And not by selling them at a low price to people who use them hard, then demand warranty replacement.Am I the only one that thinks this is a midrange tool that’s way overpriced? No bit driver, 420HC steel, a useless file, no saw on one of the models and magnets. I hope Leatherman doesn’t go down this path. Im sorry but it looks kind of crappy to me.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I fell the same, the MSRP is very high. For the price I can have a good cordless drill!
LM are going to sell bucket-loads of these...people are going to love the shiny bling, 'free' swinging action and OHO. Perfect for all those lifestyle users and retail stores...
Victorinox sells perfume, cloth and luggage... Gerber sells gear for the Zombie apocalypse...
The EDC crowd is larger, more willing to spend money and less hard on the tools. Basically the perfect customers for LM. Next step is to release a video showing a special-force-green-seal-navy-beret-operator how use the P4 for self-defense.
Well said Etherealicer :like: Especially "...Zombie apocalypse..." :) I'm personally eyeing an MP1 as a possible new carry just for this purpose :)
It's now more about the marketing, at least with LM. They're making some serious claims about Free, so we'll see!
Post by: Fuzzbucket on January 26, 2019, 06:41:34 PM
https://youtu.be/cscu7mZtENM
Great video - thanks. :salute:
I think, I really like the look of the P4... I think. :think: Don't like what they've done with the phillips though, incorporating the bottle opener like that - ugly. :facepalm:
Also, really don't like the plastic look of the T tools... That just doesn't look good at all - plastic masquerading as metal... in my opinion that is.
Post by: Wspeed on January 26, 2019, 06:53:45 PM
Post by: Fuzzbucket on January 26, 2019, 07:05:25 PM
Post by: Wspeed on January 26, 2019, 07:14:19 PM
Post by: Syncop8r on January 26, 2019, 08:13:58 PM
Post by: Max Stone on January 26, 2019, 08:17:49 PM
Post by: balvenie on January 26, 2019, 08:26:30 PM
I think we are all in agreement then? We like them apart from the Wingman/Sidekick/Rev style tools and would be more excited if they had Wave/Charge/Rebar tools?I'm pretty sure that the free platform will be good for the new wave in some years; interchangeable bits, better tools implements and better steel will do the rest
Post by: Wspeed on January 26, 2019, 08:47:50 PM
I think we are all in agreement then? We like them apart from the Wingman/Sidekick/Rev style tools and would be more excited if they had Wave/Charge/Rebar tools?:iagree: that would be a good start but if this is a brand
new design then I would like to see new and better quality tools :tu: :like:
Post by: NKlamerus on January 26, 2019, 09:31:45 PM
Post by: Pacu on January 26, 2019, 11:21:49 PM
Post by: Etherealicer on January 26, 2019, 11:26:50 PM
I guess you haven't seen the "reality check" video from the Center Drive... its... well... :rofl:And that is how you earn money (which is kinda the point of any company). And not by selling them at a low price to people who use them hard, then demand warranty replacement.Am I the only one that thinks this is a midrange tool that’s way overpriced? No bit driver, 420HC steel, a useless file, no saw on one of the models and magnets. I hope Leatherman doesn’t go down this path. Im sorry but it looks kind of crappy to me.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I fell the same, the MSRP is very high. For the price I can have a good cordless drill!
LM are going to sell bucket-loads of these...people are going to love the shiny bling, 'free' swinging action and OHO. Perfect for all those lifestyle users and retail stores...
Victorinox sells perfume, cloth and luggage... Gerber sells gear for the Zombie apocalypse...
The EDC crowd is larger, more willing to spend money and less hard on the tools. Basically the perfect customers for LM. Next step is to release a video showing a special-force-green-seal-navy-beret-operator how use the P4 for self-defense.
Well said Etherealicer :like: Especially "...Zombie apocalypse..." :) I'm personally eyeing an MP1 as a possible new carry just for this purpose :)
It's now more about the marketing, at least with LM. They're making some serious claims about Free, so we'll see!
Post by: gregpost on January 27, 2019, 03:00:20 AM
I think we are all in agreement then? We like them apart from the Wingman/Sidekick/Rev style tools and would be more excited if they had Wave/Charge/Rebar tools?
For EDC, the Wingman driver is more than capable and it isn't even locking. This one is locking and although it looks flat like the Wingman driver, nobody has even tried it. I'm going to reserve judgment.
Post by: gadgetman7 on January 27, 2019, 03:56:25 AM
I’m also worried about the magnets. I sometimes carry a small flashlight with a magnet in the tail and it’s a real pain if I have anything else metal in my pocket.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 27, 2019, 04:53:57 AM
Post by: CallsignBadger on January 27, 2019, 06:00:24 AM
I agree with not wanting wingman\sidekick tools :td:
I pretty much want a modified Rebar with a Spirit layout :rofl: :facepalm:
Post by: Max Stone on January 27, 2019, 07:00:34 AM
This news got me excited, but then slightly disappointed :(
I agree with not wanting wingman\sidekick tools :td:
I pretty much want a modified Rebar with a Spirit layout :rofl: :facepalm:
Like this? :)
Post by: CallsignBadger on January 27, 2019, 07:03:36 AM
Or I guess by Spirit layout, I mean the outside tools :tu:
Post by: Max Stone on January 27, 2019, 07:48:41 AM
:drool:
Or I guess by Spirit layout, I mean the outside tools :tu:
Oh OK, a Spirit then :pok:
Post by: CallsignBadger on January 27, 2019, 07:57:39 AM
Post by: MMR on January 27, 2019, 12:34:53 PM
I'll stick with my Surge.
The knife-based ones look interesting tho, especially for EDC
Post by: jaya_man on January 27, 2019, 12:48:38 PM
Tried this earlier... so happened a friend asked a similar question...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190127/c37786ee673d3b3f81990dca9e479638.jpg)
Post by: badwolf on January 27, 2019, 01:13:39 PM
Post by: MMR on January 27, 2019, 01:22:47 PM
https://youtu.be/Wdncq36wtEw
@ 02:50
You heard the man...lets all take note of that....."if you see someone with a grey sheath, you know they have a better MT than you" :facepalm:
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 27, 2019, 04:16:21 PM
Post by: genevabuck on January 27, 2019, 04:24:11 PM
Post by: Max Stone on January 27, 2019, 04:34:23 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 27, 2019, 04:36:54 PM
My only real concern is this:
Quality control
Everything about the tool is going to be dependant on top-notch QC and performance standards. I have yet to see Leatherman produce a perfectly consistent line of tools. The new system will be hindered with just the slightest rubbing, pivot tightness/looseness,, magnet strength consistency, and tool quality. I hope Leatherman pulls out a winner, but I can't help, but think about the files rubbing the handle on my Charge, one side of handles stronger than the other at the plier end on my Wave, wobbly Wingman handles, inconsistent pivot tightness on many tools, etc.
If they are going to release these, and charge more than the cost of a SwissTool/Sprit, they better damned be ready to make sure each one of the Free tools doesn't leave the factory without expert scrutiny. :ahhh
Post by: chrono on January 27, 2019, 04:38:22 PM
Post by: Wspeed on January 27, 2019, 05:21:08 PM
is that black material cost more than grey material :facepalm:
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 27, 2019, 05:32:16 PM
The only reason they have now got grey sheaths:rofl:
is that black material cost more than grey material :facepalm:
Post by: McStitchy on January 27, 2019, 05:47:02 PM
I find the neodym magnets idea not good.
Did you ever try removing metal particles from a magnet using earbuds as the LM representative suggests, "or maybe you like that gritty feel" as he commented :facepalm:
Anyhow, I don't want to carry magnets my pockets. Thinking about ATM or Credit cards, Compass in your backpack, or the everso present computer harddrive in my job, apart from the metal particles on a workbench etc.
It also looks like the drivers are coming out a bit too easy maybe.
Btw, neodym magnets are very brittle and don't like humidity either. They must be covered therefore to be protected. We'll see how they'll hold up in the long run.
Then the are the Wingman style drivers.
I could tolerate them on.... a Wingman.
But not on a 120-140$ tool.
The file is way too short, no bit-driver, should have kept the old bottle-can-opener, I'm even missing the sheep-foot style tip on the serrated blade.
Btw, where is that sturdy big flat-head-pry-thingy?
And what 'am I supposed to measure with that tiny scale?
I'm sorry I guess I've heated up a bit while writing my comment. I hope no-one takes anything the wrong way :hatsoff:
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 27, 2019, 06:05:58 PM
Post by: CallsignBadger on January 27, 2019, 06:16:44 PM
But, out and about, the flippy dippy motions should prove to be satisfyingly fun. :)
Can it beat a PL though :)
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 27, 2019, 06:27:57 PM
Quote from: CallsignBadger
:think:
Can it beat a PL though :)
It would be hard to dethrone the PL. The Free series does have the all outboard and easy one hand tool access. That is a new one in the MT world. :multi:
Post by: McStitchy on January 27, 2019, 06:32:42 PM
You're absolutely correct, Matt! BUT, one thing, they aren't discontinuing the heavy duty tools like the SuperTool 300, Surge, Rebar, Wave, Crunch or Charge. The Free series is aimed at a more urban market from what I can tell. They are going to be in a similar boat as the Swisstools, with tolerances not being friendly to dirt and dust. Great for cleaner work environments and fun to play around with. The Free series could be a huge flop like the SOG PowerGrab and such. Who knows. I couldn't carry one at my job either, because of metallic particles. But, out and about, the flippy dippy motions should prove to be satisfyingly fun. :)
Thanks gerleatherberman.
In that context it makes more sense :salute:
Post by: Poncho65 on January 27, 2019, 08:16:11 PM
Gonna have to spray paint my LM sheaths grey, so he knows my tool is better than his. >:D
::) :rofl:
The only reason they have now got grey sheaths
is that black material cost more than grey material :facepalm:
:iagree: :rofl:
Post by: tommywp on January 27, 2019, 08:38:02 PM
:multi:
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on January 27, 2019, 08:38:30 PM
So, I will get myself a P4 as soon as they are available over here ::).
Post by: gregpost on January 27, 2019, 08:45:00 PM
I can't decide if I want the P2 or P4. I really just want to carry it minus the status symbol nylon sheath that tells people they're carrying inferior tools and I'm better than they are. The P2 has a built in clip already and I'd like to basically upgrade my Wingman which is my favorite EDC carry because it's so easy.
Post by: McStitchy on January 27, 2019, 08:48:58 PM
I've been watching these Youtube clips a couple of times these last couple of days, and there's only one way to find out if these Free P series are as good as they (Leatherman) claim ...
So, I will get myself a P4 as soon as they are available over here ::).
:popcorn:
Post by: Wspeed on January 27, 2019, 08:56:54 PM
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on January 27, 2019, 08:57:54 PM
I do think the name still sounds weird ... It always makes me think of this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bcgB0d4deE
Post by: Etherealicer on January 27, 2019, 09:46:46 PM
[...]Lots of compromises needed with the MUT and Signal hammers[...]Not nearly as much of a compromise as you think with the Signal (which I think is great).
I mean you gain:
- Hammer
- high torque bit holder
- carabiner
at the cost of 2 small (or 1 wide small) tool. Had the Signal 4 outside tool (like the Wave), you would only loose 1 small tool.
Apart from the plastic bits... the Signal frame is better than the Wave frame... at least that is what I think. And the hammer is really a handy tool.
Post by: kreisler on January 27, 2019, 10:04:12 PM
(…)Valid concerns.
I might well try the P2 and check it against them. At this time i have the feeling that the new Leatherman won't be a keeper in my picky collection (Surge, SpiritX, SAK's, Spyderco's) ::)
Post by: Wessaen on January 27, 2019, 11:15:50 PM
The K series is way way too big a knife blade for clinical/hospital EDC. For a blade that size it needs to be fixed for me to find it useful and even then is pretty much only for camping/outdoors.
The T series however may be a nice addition to my EDC rotation in place of my Pioneer X/Voyageur.
All depends on build quality. It's going to be hard to beat a SAK. FRN frame is fine with me when done well; something similar to Spyderco would be great.
Now we just have to wait another 5 months :facepalm:
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on January 27, 2019, 11:23:08 PM
So if the Free P4 stays under the current price of a Leatherman Wave + over here (= 149,95 Euro) I will buy it, if it sells under 100 Euro, I'll (probably) buy two ;).
Post by: kirk13 on January 28, 2019, 06:44:31 PM
Here we go again... >:D
How can they call it the Free when it's due to be $120?
:pommel: :pommel:
Post by: Wspeed on January 28, 2019, 06:46:59 PM
Post by: Poncho65 on January 28, 2019, 07:10:27 PM
:pommel: :pommel:
Here we go again... >:D
How can they call it the Free when it's due to be $120?
:pommel: :pommel:
:shrug:
Post by: AlephZero on January 28, 2019, 07:39:35 PM
Post by: LoopCutter on January 28, 2019, 07:40:43 PM
Makes it easier for packagers to select the correct sheath.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: AlephZero on January 28, 2019, 07:41:57 PM
Don't you already have Wave, Charge and Rebar for that? :think:
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 28, 2019, 08:12:42 PM
I'm just going to ask one thing... Why do you people ask for this tool with Wave or Charge or Rebar tools?:iagree:
Don't you already have Wave, Charge and Rebar for that? :think:
Post by: SteveC on January 28, 2019, 08:15:42 PM
I'm just going to ask one thing... Why do you people ask for this tool with Wave or Charge or Rebar tools?
Don't you already have Wave, Charge and Rebar for that? :think:
It's because the tools on the Free resemble those of the Sidekick/Wingman which aren't near the quality of said other tools.
Post by: Aloha on January 28, 2019, 08:16:19 PM
I'm just going to ask one thing... Why do you people ask for this tool with Wave or Charge or Rebar tools?
Don't you already have Wave, Charge and Rebar for that? :think:
Thats actually a great question. Heres my take. Why put Wingman/Sidekick tool in then? With a new tool why not add the "best of the best". The Wave has got to be the all time best seller. I think certain features make it so. Put those "best" features in this tool or design what you think will be best.
Post by: AlephZero on January 28, 2019, 08:21:49 PM
I'm just going to ask one thing... Why do you people ask for this tool with Wave or Charge or Rebar tools?
Don't you already have Wave, Charge and Rebar for that? :think:
It's because the tools on the Free resemble those of the Sidekick/Wingman which aren't near the quality of said other tools.
And do we have ANY proof that those tools would actually be any lesser quality? Or are we just assuming?
Post by: AlephZero on January 28, 2019, 08:22:37 PM
Post by: Aloha on January 28, 2019, 08:24:14 PM
I'm just going to ask one thing... Why do you people ask for this tool with Wave or Charge or Rebar tools?
Don't you already have Wave, Charge and Rebar for that? :think:
It's because the tools on the Free resemble those of the Sidekick/Wingman which aren't near the quality of said other tools.
And do we have ANY proof that those tools would actually be any lesser quality? Or are we just assuming?
I'd say the bit holder is for many a step up. For others the 3D Philips is the best. What I can say is the Wingman Philips is good and when I used it it did its job.
They thought enough of it ( bit holder ) to include it on a wide range of tools.
Post by: Aloha on January 28, 2019, 08:27:04 PM
And if so, why are we always asuming that LM is lesser quality?
:pok: I'm a Leaterman guy :D.
Post by: SteveC on January 28, 2019, 08:28:56 PM
Post by: SteveC on January 28, 2019, 08:31:01 PM
I'm just going to ask one thing... Why do you people ask for this tool with Wave or Charge or Rebar tools?
Don't you already have Wave, Charge and Rebar for that? :think:
It's because the tools on the Free resemble those of the Sidekick/Wingman which aren't near the quality of said other tools.
And do we have ANY proof that those tools would actually be any lesser quality? Or are we just assuming?
I'd say the bit holder is for many a step up. For others the 3D Philips is the best. What I can say is the Wingman Philips is good and when I used it it did its job.
They thought enough of it ( bit holder ) to include it on a wide range of tools.
I agree the phillips works well enough, it's the other tools that are lacking IMO. That god awful file for one.
Post by: AlephZero on January 28, 2019, 08:47:11 PM
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on January 28, 2019, 08:47:52 PM
:pommel: :pommel:
Here we go again... >:D
How can they call it the Free when it's due to be $120?
:pommel: :pommel:
Maybe they will be released with "Free" on the handles until somebody starts a lawsuit against Leatherman, from that point they'll be available with "not really free" on the handles.
So make sure to get some of the first batch, they'll become collectors items, just wait and see ... :pok:
Post by: AlephZero on January 28, 2019, 08:47:56 PM
Post by: Aloha on January 28, 2019, 08:55:43 PM
I like it :)
:tu:. I can't act like I didn't like the Wingman/Sidekick. They were great till I got a Wave. Game changer for me.
Not all tools are meant to appeal to all. Its just the price point I think most are taking issue with. If they want to charge the amount they are the Wingman was sold as a budget option. Loading it ( new tools ) with what LM called their entry level tool at the high price is whats at issue? Make sense?
Post by: gregpost on January 28, 2019, 09:42:33 PM
Post by: mcb on January 28, 2019, 09:44:14 PM
Post by: gregpost on January 28, 2019, 09:45:48 PM
:tu:. I can't act like I didn't like the Wingman/Sidekick. They were great till I got a Wave. Game changer for me.
I can't EDC a Wave because the Wingman and Surge made me used to scissors opposite the knife handle. Outside of a mod, I wouldn't carry a Wave. When I bought one, I was just constantly annoyed at where the scissor was among other things I found annoying.
Post by: balvenie on January 28, 2019, 10:02:10 PM
Post by: Aloha on January 28, 2019, 10:05:47 PM
:tu:. I can't act like I didn't like the Wingman/Sidekick. They were great till I got a Wave. Game changer for me.
I can't EDC a Wave because the Wingman and Surge made me used to scissors opposite the knife handle. Outside of a mod, I wouldn't carry a Wave. When I bought one, I was just constantly annoyed at where the scissor was among other things I found annoying.
I would like outside scissors too.
Post by: Poncho65 on January 28, 2019, 11:38:12 PM
When the Wingman and Sidekick first came out they were priced at $30 for the Wingman and $40 for the Sidekick. Now they're both $49 at retail with no sale and the REV is about $35. Leatherman has raised prices across the board. The Wave is now $99 unless it goes on sale. The MSRP of $120 for the Free P2 is not what retailers usually sell a tool for. The P2 will probably be around $100 dollars. That's not bad for Leatherman's "latest and greatest" when you look at the other prices on their line. The Leatherman Rebar at $59 probably remains the best value Leatherman offers.
:iagree: :like:
Post by: jaya_man on January 29, 2019, 01:56:02 AM
I do like that box cutter tool though... at least now we don’t only see it on the Swisstools and Spirits.
Just wished the phillips were 3D instead of 2D... and a longer file... If Victorinox can do it on their MTs, why cant LM do it too... I mean the P4 has space for 4 long tools...
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 29, 2019, 05:14:27 AM
And the new tools are moving away from confusing nail nicks. :)
Edit: the P2/P4 aren't replacing the Wave and Surge. They are for a different market. :)
Post by: Raoul Octav on January 29, 2019, 10:04:16 AM
Post by: Raoul Octav on January 29, 2019, 10:07:09 AM
Post by: Raoul Octav on January 29, 2019, 10:08:45 AM
Post by: MMR on January 29, 2019, 10:13:35 AM
Hmmm... why Wingman/Sidekick style tools on the Free? Maybe the LM team responsible were under immense pressure to make the ones more condensed tool wise... That and a few buckets of beers...
I do like that box cutter tool though... at least now we don’t only see it on the Swisstools and Spirits.
Just wished the phillips were 3D instead of 2D... and a longer file... If Victorinox can do it on their MTs, why cant LM do it too... I mean the P4 has space for 4 long tools...
I 100% agree with you, especially as its the same tool selection as on a Wingman/Sidekick but at a 120-140 dollar price tag.
But as someone mentioned in a previous post in this thread, maybe its just a different target group they are trying to reach with the Free series? ...as the member mentioned, maybe its features / USPs are something that would appeal to a more urban-based customers?
Who knows, in the end; if you don't like it, don't buy it. I know I won't :)
Post by: Raoul Octav on January 29, 2019, 10:19:20 AM
Probably i'll get one, cuz i'm into LMN if ya'll now what i mean,
yet the main multipurpose tools that i have are my hands and feet
I like the new design, the blade, the scissor, yet instead of a serrated blade, put a Tshank and an exchangebla file and saw, and instead of those little Wingman tools, put a bit holder.
My2cents.
Same goes for the K series and T series, altough T series deems not to be my style
PS: i'm writing now to Leatherman about my 2cents
Post by: jaya_man on January 29, 2019, 10:30:26 AM
Yes, you’re right... and maybe its the same urban based target group that buys the Charge TTis and similar tools...Hmmm... why Wingman/Sidekick style tools on the Free? Maybe the LM team responsible were under immense pressure to make the ones more condensed tool wise... That and a few buckets of beers...
I do like that box cutter tool though... at least now we don’t only see it on the Swisstools and Spirits.
Just wished the phillips were 3D instead of 2D... and a longer file... If Victorinox can do it on their MTs, why cant LM do it too... I mean the P4 has space for 4 long tools...
I 100% agree with you, especially as its the same tool selection as on a Wingman/Sidekick but at a 120-140 dollar price tag.
But as someone mentioned in a previous post in this thread, maybe its just a different target group they are trying to reach with the Free series? ...as the member mentioned, maybe its features / USPs are something that would appeal to a more urban-based customers?
Who knows, in the end; if you don't like it, don't buy it. I know I won't :)
Am really interested in the P4. But buying one will definitely depend on reviews from people that put them to good use...
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 29, 2019, 10:32:52 AM
LM already has great tools with exchangers, so it doesn't make sense for them to release a direct competitor to a tool that they already make and have to support. :dunno:
Anyway. Can't make everyone, or even a majority of people happy. A tool with every tool everyone wants would be 6" thick, 7lbs, and unusable. I like that the P2 and P4 are geared to a different type of user. Something different and pretty cool. I commend them for stepping out of traditional views for the new tools. If they suck, they'll be discontinued. Simple as that. Leatherman isn't going to change or stop the new releases, because of complaints from people who haven't used the tools yet. :tu:
Post by: Raoul Octav on January 29, 2019, 10:40:13 AM
The Pliers teeth do not cross like the Wave/Surge and the rest, they are like this >< and this means no sticking no bloking of the Pliers if you cut something too hard, there will be wear over time, yet not as annoying to the Wave,Surge etc.
Still, if its the Future, and should have been future proof, they should have implemented the Tshank and bit holder in parralel to a small number of versatile tools( flatscredriver, canopener , awl etc)
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 29, 2019, 10:46:20 AM
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on January 29, 2019, 11:02:45 AM
Here again, and I can't emphasize this enough, it would be extremely counterintuitive to produce tools that directly compete with the tools they produce and aren't discontinuing. Discontinuing the Wave, Charge, and Rebar, Supertool, or Surge would be a financial disaster for Leatherman, as they would have to have or produce parts to repair the tools for 25 years. Or send out completely new tools to every warranty claim, with many of them leaving the brand, because they hate the new tools. The P series and such aren't THE future of LM, just PART of the future of LM.
You're not giving up are you ;).
My mind is made up, I'm getting a P4 as soon as I can and if it's "reasonably priced".
Show content
Who am I kidding, it doesn't even has to be reasonably priced, as long as it's not insanely expensive :facepalm:.
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 29, 2019, 11:12:53 AM
Just a P4, TG? :pok:
We both know, you and I are going to have more than one, if we intend to carry a P4. :D
Post by: jaya_man on January 29, 2019, 11:56:42 AM
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on January 29, 2019, 11:57:27 AM
:rofl:
Just a P4, TG? :pok:
We both know, you and I are going to have more than one, if we intend to carry a P4. :D
Let me answer with a song ...
Show content
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8MO7fkZc5o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8MO7fkZc5o)
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 29, 2019, 12:07:12 PM
And every other variation thereof... :pok:Quite possible. :rofl:
Quote from: Top-Gear-24
:rofl:
Let me answer with a song ...Show contenthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8MO7fkZc5o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8MO7fkZc5o)
Great song pick. :tu:
Post by: Raoul Octav on January 29, 2019, 12:17:42 PM
Either way, they could have implemented the Tshank and bitholder and focus on "accesories" more, because there is a huge market where people would spend lot more small amounts of money on a large time span for accsesories.
Either way, my last name is not Leatherman and i'm not the CEO so... my2cents
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 29, 2019, 12:42:47 PM
Supertool, Supertool 200, Core, and Supertool 300 are close enough in platform for warranty swaps.
If I send in my Surge and get back a P4, I'm going to be pretty upset. They aren't even closely related in platform like the aforementioned tool series.
If LM had put the t-shank exchanger and bit exchanger on the P4, you would see droves of people complaining that LM is forcing them to buy flat bits and use shortened saws and files. " OH MY, LM isn't giving us the reach and length."
Like I said, LM can't win everyone over. Lots of members here swap the exchangers out for regular tools. :ahhh
Post by: Max Stone on January 29, 2019, 12:44:21 PM
Post by: Raoul Octav on January 29, 2019, 01:08:00 PM
Their warranty is exceptional, great PR, great for customer Care/feedbackk. I do not know their cost on the warranty, i assume pretty high YET
-since 2015 i wrote to them and urged them to make a line or provide a solution for the niche who are into customization( swap/exchange tools etc), and they gave us last year the custom engraving
-it took them 3 or 4 years to go from normal Pliers to Pliers with exchangeable teeth
What i'm saying is that they are moving slowly, yes they are the pinacle of the multitool industry( yet in many ocasions the competition came close and with more interesting innovation(just check BearJaws, Gerber Slide plier mt.) , yes they come with new fresh ideas, yet they have addresses themselves in the past to niches, they try(i appreciate that), so for God-sake, why not use the tools that are very very widely acclaimed from their heritage multitools in the new line which is sold as The Future, yet not future proof
Post by: ddogu on January 29, 2019, 01:11:54 PM
BTW I saw a Wave+ today in a shelf and contrary to the demo unit that was shown in a LM video, there IS a "+" sign on the tool, indeed. So it is easy to distinguish.
Post by: Max Stone on January 29, 2019, 01:19:13 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 29, 2019, 01:33:50 PM
Many brands end up splitting their portfolio to address different users. Even Gerber with BG, Black and Decker with Dewalt, etc. Can be risky (BG probably hurt Gerber’s image) but maybe Leatherman needs to think about this strategy? :dunno::facepalm: https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,77363.0.html :facepalm:
Post by: Max Stone on January 29, 2019, 01:52:35 PM
Many brands end up splitting their portfolio to address different users. Even Gerber with BG, Black and Decker with Dewalt, etc. Can be risky (BG probably hurt Gerber’s image) but maybe Leatherman needs to think about this strategy? :dunno::facepalm: https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,77363.0.html :facepalm:
Oh no! Should be called “surviving BG club” :facepalm:
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on January 29, 2019, 03:10:56 PM
I for one am waiting for a P4 GAW :dd:
BTW I saw a Wave+ today in a shelf and contrary to the demo unit that was shown in a LM video, there IS a "+" sign on the tool, indeed. So it is easy to distinguish.
The first ones (date codes late 2017 and early 2018) didn't have a "+" on the handles, the later ones do ... (that's based on my own experiences, but if anybody knows more, please share it with us ;)).
That's why I bought both ... And that's why the one without "+" is already in the collection ... (I know, I know ::)). And the other one is one of my favorite EDC tools these days.
My BO Wave + also has the "+" on the handles, so I should try and find a BO Wave + without "+" as well :think:.
Here's a pic of my first Wave + with no "+" (you're still with me ... ? :pok:):
(https://i.imgur.com/6oH3OTe.jpg)
Post by: Wspeed on January 29, 2019, 03:16:57 PM
have a + on the Wave+ nice one T-G :tu: :like:
Post by: ddogu on January 29, 2019, 03:27:21 PM
I for one am waiting for a P4 GAW :dd:
BTW I saw a Wave+ today in a shelf and contrary to the demo unit that was shown in a LM video, there IS a "+" sign on the tool, indeed. So it is easy to distinguish.
The first ones (date codes late 2017 and early 2018) didn't have a "+" on the handles, the later ones do ... (that's based on my own experiences, but if anybody knows more, please share it with us ;)).
That's why I bought both ... And that's why the one without "+" is already in the collection ... (I know, I know ::)). And the other one is one of my favorite EDC tools these days.
My BO Wave + also has the "+" on the handles, so I should try and find a BO Wave + without "+" as well :think:.
Here's a pic of my first Wave + with no "+" (you're still with me ... ? :pok:):
(https://i.imgur.com/6oH3OTe.jpg)
You, sir are a legitimate Wave-maniac! :D :D
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on January 29, 2019, 03:41:15 PM
Never knew that the first ones didn’t
have a + on the Wave+ nice one T-G :tu: :like:
Like I said, this is not official, just a theory of mine based on my own experiences (don't want anybody :twak: me when it turns out to be untrue).
You, sir are a legitimate Wave-maniac! :D :DThe Wave and Charge based tools are the ones of which I own the most, about a year or three ago they went up and over my Spirit/Swisstool collection, when it comes down to pure numbers. And the original Wave was the third multitool I bought, after my Supertool in '94 and a Gerber Mr. Pinchy somewhere around '98. Back in the days when years went buy without buying a new tool ... crazy times indeed ::).
I really do like them, and before the Wave + was here, I used to carry a Surge, mostly because of the replaceable cutters, but since I own a Wave +, the Surge gets to stay at home more and more ... :D
Post by: Aloha on January 29, 2019, 03:42:06 PM
I am recalling how some members didn't like how freely their LMs could open. The butterfly ability, if you will. With a lot of use both my Surge and Wave can be butterfly opened. I quite like this ability. Its actually a neat feature for this series. The magnets to keep the tool "closed" along with their cam mechanism will be interesting over time. LM tested their "springs" for a million cycles so again we'll see. I like this ability especially when needing to open pliers one handed which I do need at times.
I appreciate the ability now to access all tools without having to open the tool :tu:. This is really a wonderful new feature for LM. The OHT tried but fell a bit short. I like the OHO of outside tools a lot the more I think about it. Both Spirit and Swisstool outside accessible tools are great but this looks like a step in the right direction with OHO outside accessibility. More and more I am liking this.
The new locking mechanism looks pretty good. I also like the scales the more I see them. The flat area on the plier when close for 'tapping" is great. I've certainly "tapped" with my LM :whistle:
Post by: VICMAN on January 29, 2019, 06:38:16 PM
In my view LM did not improve anything apart from the seemingly more sturdy plier head.
I find the neodym magnets idea not good.
:
Anyhow, I don't want to carry magnets my pockets. Thinking about ATM or Credit cards, Compass in your backpack, or the everso present computer harddrive in my job, apart from the metal particles on a workbench etc.
It also looks like the drivers are coming out a bit too easy maybe.
Then the are the Wingman style drivers.
I could tolerate them on.... a Wingman.
But not on a 120-140$ tool.
The file is way too short,
I'm sorry I guess I've heated up a bit while writing my comment. I hope no-one takes anything the wrong way :hatsoff:
I agree with you Matt! :cheers:
I particularly don't like the idea of magnets in my pocket for the same reasons.
I will stick with my Super Tool 300 with removable bit holder, bit extender, and 42 bit kit.( I also carry a Swiss Champ.)
I am sure there is a market for the new tools....I just won't be in that market group.
Post by: McStitchy on January 29, 2019, 07:12:15 PM
In my view LM did not improve anything apart from the seemingly more sturdy plier head.
I find the neodym magnets idea not good.
:
Anyhow, I don't want to carry magnets my pockets. Thinking about ATM or Credit cards, Compass in your backpack, or the everso present computer harddrive in my job, apart from the metal particles on a workbench etc.
It also looks like the drivers are coming out a bit too easy maybe.
Then the are the Wingman style drivers.
I could tolerate them on.... a Wingman.
But not on a 120-140$ tool.
The file is way too short,
I'm sorry I guess I've heated up a bit while writing my comment. I hope no-one takes anything the wrong way :hatsoff:
I agree with you Matt! :cheers:
I particularly don't like the idea of magnets in my pocket for the same reasons.
I will stick with my Super Tool 300 with removable bit holder, bit extender, and 42 bit kit.( I also carry a Swiss Champ.)
I am sure there is a market for the new tools....I just won't be in that market group.
The bit kit and extender adds lots of options :cheers:
Post by: Aloha on January 29, 2019, 07:39:25 PM
Post by: ThePeacent on January 29, 2019, 09:17:52 PM
Many brands end up splitting their portfolio to address different users. Even Gerber with BG, Black and Decker with Dewalt, etc. Can be risky (BG probably hurt Gerber’s image) but maybe Leatherman needs to think about this strategy? :dunno::facepalm: https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,77363.0.html :facepalm:
Oh no! Should be called “surviving BG club” :facepalm:
only one way to survive BG...
Show content
(https://i.imgur.com/NfCsrZJ.jpg)
Post by: Wspeed on January 29, 2019, 09:42:56 PM
Post by: Syncop8r on January 29, 2019, 09:51:19 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 29, 2019, 09:54:14 PM
:rofl:
Post by: CallsignBadger on January 29, 2019, 09:56:20 PM
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on January 29, 2019, 10:26:10 PM
Post by: Wspeed on January 29, 2019, 10:42:32 PM
Post by: ddogu on January 30, 2019, 12:49:15 PM
After watching a few more videos on the P2 and P4 here are some further thoughts from my perspective.
I am recalling how some members didn't like how freely their LMs could open. The butterfly ability, if you will. With a lot of use both my Surge and Wave can be butterfly opened. I quite like this ability. Its actually a neat feature for this series. The magnets to keep the tool "closed" along with their cam mechanism will be interesting over time. LM tested their "springs" for a million cycles so again we'll see. I like this ability especially when needing to open pliers one handed which I do need at times.
I appreciate the ability now to access all tools without having to open the tool :tu:. This is really a wonderful new feature for LM. The OHT tried but fell a bit short. I like the OHO of outside tools a lot the more I think about it. Both Spirit and Swisstool outside accessible tools are great but this looks like a step in the right direction with OHO outside accessibility. More and more I am liking this.
The new locking mechanism looks pretty good. I also like the scales the more I see them. The flat area on the plier when close for 'tapping" is great. I've certainly "tapped" with my LM :whistle:
SOGs also have this feature, butterfly opening, i.e. Dunno if all SOGs have it, tho I find it quite useful. Especially when you're working on a ladder or have to hold on to something for balance, you reach for your pocket, pick the tool and open it with a flick of the wrist.
Fun to play while waiting on your couch for stuff to break so you can fix them with your tool, too :P
Post by: AlephZero on January 30, 2019, 09:00:30 PM
Post by: CallsignBadger on January 30, 2019, 10:00:51 PM
Post by: Max Stone on January 30, 2019, 10:45:26 PM
I’d love to mod a P2/P4 :dd:
Unfortunately the new locking design and magnet retention will probably mean the shape of the tools at the pivot end will be different, so dropping in a longer file, better Phillips or even a bit adapter from another Leatherman could be a challenge. :dunno:
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 30, 2019, 11:18:55 PM
I don't have the skills to make preexisting tools work in it, but some may.
I'm already thinking about shaping and drilling a thin Nicholson file to replace the SE blade. It'll have to be from a full file, as the new system makes do with huge tangs. :facepalm:
Post by: carl on January 30, 2019, 11:32:15 PM
The Wave is 4 inches and the Surge is 4.5 inches so just wondering about the comparison.
Sure hope they add a bit driver extension sometime in the future.
Post by: Max Stone on January 31, 2019, 05:27:04 AM
Post by: CallsignBadger on January 31, 2019, 05:52:31 AM
I believe 4” Carl.
I’d safely guess the same :dunno:
Post by: carl on January 31, 2019, 07:04:48 AM
Anyway, I do hope that for the premium price of $120 - $140, its the bigger size - more like 4.5 inches closed length.
Post by: gerleatherberman on January 31, 2019, 07:28:20 AM
Post by: Tsquare on January 31, 2019, 01:42:30 PM
Post by: carl on February 01, 2019, 02:31:11 AM
do you have a link for the info?
This would also seem to imply the P2/P4 will be their largest Free models - no Surge-sized equivalent in the future.
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 01, 2019, 02:32:30 AM
Post by: gregpost on February 01, 2019, 03:02:40 AM
I hate to admit this, but I am already planning on buying two P4s. One for the queenship of shelf and one to carry. :woohoo:
I'm still undecided between the P2 and P4 but I'll definitely get one as soon as they're out. I haven't been very excited about anything new in the multitool world in a while. Leatherman gets a lot of grief from the boards but they actually innovate and evolve functional multi-tools more than any other company.
Post by: AndyTiedye on February 01, 2019, 03:42:27 AM
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Post by: CallsignBadger on February 01, 2019, 04:16:27 AM
Post by: Tsquare on February 01, 2019, 04:39:45 AM
Post by: Tsquare on February 01, 2019, 04:52:54 AM
Post by: SteveC on February 01, 2019, 05:48:59 AM
Post by: carl on February 01, 2019, 08:23:14 AM
I think the P2 will be 4" and the P4 will be 4.5" size
The P2 and P4 look to be the same in all respects except that the P4 has a few more tools to make it overall fatter but not longer. I could be wrong.
If these tools are not Surge-sized, I don't see how the cost is justified but who knows, maybe they'll turn out to be a home run!
Post by: carl on February 01, 2019, 09:21:26 PM
Post by: carl on February 01, 2019, 09:22:11 PM
Is the closed length measured from end to end or between pivot points?
The reason I ask is because the P4 has extended ends to accommodate the lock which pivots on a pin at the very end of each handle, thus making each handle about a 1/4" longer. You can see the pin at each end.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on February 02, 2019, 02:54:29 AM
Pliers ergonomics look better than usual, less splay, and less obvious hotspots from what I can see. They still insisted on having the cutters encroach on the main gripping area though, which is a deal breaker for me. Also the tapered profile drivers may hinder access to recessed screws.
The multipurpose knives won't get me to part with a Swiss knife, and the pliers tools aren't exactly winning me over either, even ignoring the price tag. In an engineering or workshop setting, I'd be less worried about filings in the pivots than I would about metal shards clinging to the outside of the tool, although it's nice of them to give you tweezers so you can dig them back out of your palm.
So $120 to wipe my credit cards, get splinters, have the cutters bite into things I'm trying to grip, and not be able to access screws. Sounds like a bargain to me. :tu:
Post by: Max Stone on February 02, 2019, 06:47:52 AM
"Introducing the Leatherman Free line, the last multitools you'll ever buy - because the magnets will kill your credit cards so you can't buy anything else":rofl:
...
Post by: Smashie on February 02, 2019, 07:06:53 AM
"Introducing the Leatherman Free line, the last multitools you'll ever buy - because the magnets will kill your credit cards so you can't buy anything else"
:rofl:
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Post by: Aloha on February 02, 2019, 07:25:39 AM
:rofl:
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 02, 2019, 08:20:52 AM
Unless the tool is right next to your magnetic stripe cards for prolonged periods of time, that should not be an issue either, based on field weakening in relation to distance.
Post by: Max Stone on February 02, 2019, 08:52:44 AM
Post by: McStitchy on February 02, 2019, 09:06:43 AM
"Introducing the Leatherman Free line, the last multitools you'll ever buy - because the magnets will kill your credit cards so you can't buy anything else"
Pliers ergonomics look better than usual, less splay, and less obvious hotspots from what I can see. They still insisted on having the cutters encroach on the main gripping area though, which is a deal breaker for me. Also the tapered profile drivers may hinder access to recessed screws.
The multipurpose knives won't get me to part with a Swiss knife, and the pliers tools aren't exactly winning me over either, even ignoring the price tag. In an engineering or workshop setting, I'd be less worried about filings in the pivots than I would about metal shards clinging to the outside of the tool, although it's nice of them to give you tweezers so you can dig them back out of your palm.
So $120 to wipe my credit cards, get splinters, have the cutters bite into things I'm trying to grip, and not be able to access screws. Sounds like a bargain to me. :tu:
And that's just the US price. I wonder for how much they'll be going over here :dunno:
Post by: MMR on February 02, 2019, 09:38:21 AM
We can sit here and speculate all day long about “in theory this” and “in theory that” with the free series.
The truth is that we don’t know anything for certain until they release them on to the market (in April was it?) and people starts reviewing them....or we buy one for ourselves.
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Post by: McStitchy on February 02, 2019, 09:49:56 AM
I think you guys are getting a bit over analytical at this point
We can sit here and speculate all day long about “in theory this” and “in theory that” with the free series.
The truth is that we don’t know anything for certain until they release them on to the market (in April was it?) and people starts reviewing them....or we buy one for ourselves.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You're right, but where is the fun in that? :D
Post by: MMR on February 02, 2019, 10:40:06 AM
I think you guys are getting a bit over analytical at this point
We can sit here and speculate all day long about “in theory this” and “in theory that” with the free series.
The truth is that we don’t know anything for certain until they release them on to the market (in April was it?) and people starts reviewing them....or we buy one for ourselves.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You're right, but where is the fun in that? :D
Well in that case...
- LM Free series will be a flop
- Cops will see the flick feature as a possible weapon and shoot you
- magnets will fill up with dust and dirt and will render it useless
- at 120-140 dollars they are way overpriced and just a fancy LM Sidekick/wingman
Change my mind!
#shotsfired
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on February 02, 2019, 01:51:02 PM
I think the Magnets are going to be O.K. unless they've packed some serious overkill neodymium stuff in there. Moderate ferromagnetic fields and moderate neodymium magnetic fields lose attraction relatively fast with distance from the attractive debris. Metal dust should be the only real issue from what I can deduce looking at the apparent strength in the demonstration videos.
Unless the tool is right next to your magnetic stripe cards for prolonged periods of time, that should not be an issue either, based on field weakening in relation to distance.
:iagree:
Apparently Leatherman is going to fit superstrong magnets on the Free tools, capable of cleaning your workbench fom iron shavings and destroying credit cards ... (maybe that's an extra feature, to keep the Misses from spending too much during sales, just one swipe and your troubles are gone ... Leatherman, now you're ready and she isn't) ;) . But on the other hand we question wether the magnets will be strong enough to keep the pliers closed and retain the tools well enough, since we see them pop out a few times during the Shot Show videos ... :think:
What about the magnet in my Olights ? My S1R Baton and H1R Nova both have quite a magnet build into them, to hold the charger while being charged, but also for during use, so you can place it on the inside of the hood of a car when you're checking the oil for example.
I carry my lights in my pocket next to my wallet most of the time, and haven't had any problems so far.
I hope they will be strong enough, since I'm one of those people who doens't like it when the pliers are too loose (that's my biggest fear for the Free series).
Guess we'll just have to wait and see ;).
Post by: SteveC on February 02, 2019, 02:00:15 PM
I think you guys are getting a bit over analytical at this point
We can sit here and speculate all day long about “in theory this” and “in theory that” with the free series.
The truth is that we don’t know anything for certain until they release them on to the market (in April was it?) and people starts reviewing them....or we buy one for ourselves.
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You're right, but where is the fun in that? :D
:iagree: :tu:
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 02, 2019, 03:25:10 PM
Hi GLBM, I think we’re all just having a good banter on the magnets. I’m sure our credit cards will be OK, but there’s no doubt the magnets will pick up filings that will rust, attract more dirt and gunk up mechanism. Hopefully there’s easy access to use the ‘Q-tip’ method to wipe off the magnets which I presume are recessed inside the handle against the spine. But how about the risk of corrosion behind the magnets? Could be a moisture trap?You're right, Max! :cheers:
I just want to make sure that when this thread comes up in a google search, that people that don't know about MT.o members and their humor, get both sides of the proverbial magnet. :salute:
Edit:
I'm definitely hoping the magnet cavities are easy to access for cleaning, repair and possible removal(as a mod).
I use 5lbs of steel wool a week at work. Those magnets are going to get furry very quickly. :ahhh
I hope the magnets, ferro or neodymium, will have a durable plastic casing. :)
Post by: Nix on February 02, 2019, 03:31:08 PM
(https://www.bladehq.com/imgs/shop-by-brand/leatherman-multi-tools/Leatherman-K-Series-P26-K4-Gray-jr-large.jpg)
In the prototypes, the tools look a bit odd, but still useful. I'm hoping they get refined. That awl looks awful..... Do the scissors need to be so blunt?
I'm also a bit disappointed in LM's choice of 420 steel for the blade. I'll confess to being a wee bit of a 'steel snob', but I do like good steel in a knife blade. Buck does a great job with their 420, so maybe LM's 420 knife blades will be great, too. But I'd have more confidence if they were using 154CM or S30V (steels they have some experience with already).
Post by: MMR on February 02, 2019, 03:44:35 PM
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Post by: Poncho65 on February 02, 2019, 03:53:41 PM
Post by: MMR on February 02, 2019, 04:06:20 PM
All this talk of magnets has reminded me that I put a neodymium magnet in my Crunch years ago since the 1/4 inch retainer clip wasn't holding the bits in :think: I have never had a problem with keeping the bits in and never had any "magnet" type problems either ;) I removed the part above it and put the magnet there for anyone wanting to know where I put it :D
Poncho edit for bad word
SteveC : edit to remove image with bad language
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Post by: McStitchy on February 02, 2019, 04:55:01 PM
I think you guys are getting a bit over analytical at this point
We can sit here and speculate all day long about “in theory this” and “in theory that” with the free series.
The truth is that we don’t know anything for certain until they release them on to the market (in April was it?) and people starts reviewing them....or we buy one for ourselves.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You're right, but where is the fun in that? :D
Well in that case...
- LM Free series will be a flop
- Cops will see the flick feature as a possible weapon and shoot you
- magnets will fill up with dust and dirt and will render it useless
- at 120-140 dollars they are way overpriced and just a fancy LM Sidekick/wingman
Change my mind!
#shotsfired
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not sure about the cop thing man.
I guess it would depend on the situation :dunno:
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 02, 2019, 06:24:08 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41SvKHk-gnL._SX425_.jpg)
the LD51B has more tools, better steel, and cheeper. By a lot.
Post by: Wspeed on February 02, 2019, 06:46:34 PM
Post by: badwolf on February 02, 2019, 08:12:39 PM
Post by: Max Stone on February 02, 2019, 08:32:12 PM
Post by: Nix on February 02, 2019, 08:56:28 PM
154cm...if the k had that blade steel, I'd say hell yes. But thats a lot of money for a tool that is arguably worse than even the Ruike LD series.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41SvKHk-gnL._SX425_.jpg)
the LD51B has more tools, better steel, and cheeper. By a lot.
I think we still have to see what retail price is. Retail is almost always lower the MSRP, and hopefully that will be the case here as well.
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on February 02, 2019, 09:02:55 PM
I mean, promoting your new tool by demoting your best selling tool ... :think:
"If you're carrying a sheath on your hip, and I see a gray sheath, and the guy next to you has a black sheath, I know that you're carrying the best of the best in the industry ..."
If I end up buying a Free P4, I'll make sure to carry it in one of my other black sheaths (I like black better by the way, a bit more discrete than a gray one).
Post by: Wspeed on February 02, 2019, 09:11:25 PM
And the reason they went with grey material is that it was cheaper than the black material just so they can make more money out of us :D
Post by: McStitchy on February 02, 2019, 10:06:45 PM
Post by: kirk13 on February 02, 2019, 10:55:40 PM
"Introducing the Leatherman Free line, the last multitools you'll ever buy - because the magnets will kill your credit cards so you can't buy anything else"
Pliers ergonomics look better than usual, less splay, and less obvious hotspots from what I can see. They still insisted on having the cutters encroach on the main gripping area though, which is a deal breaker for me. Also the tapered profile drivers may hinder access to recessed screws.
The multipurpose knives won't get me to part with a Swiss knife, and the pliers tools aren't exactly winning me over either, even ignoring the price tag. In an engineering or workshop setting, I'd be less worried about filings in the pivots than I would about metal shards clinging to the outside of the tool, although it's nice of them to give you tweezers so you can dig them back out of your palm.
So $120 to wipe my credit cards, get splinters, have the cutters bite into things I'm trying to grip, and not be able to access screws. Sounds like a bargain to me. :tu:
Al! What took you so long?
Post by: Syncop8r on February 02, 2019, 11:49:33 PM
I wonder how the thumb lock release is to use.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on February 03, 2019, 03:06:38 AM
Al! What took you so long?
Oh, just life getting in the way, mate. Besides which, you seemed to have everything under control :D
Post by: gadgetman7 on February 03, 2019, 04:36:45 AM
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Post by: Max Stone on February 03, 2019, 08:09:48 AM
If they actually try to sell them online at MSRP it’ll be interesting to see how they sell. I see no advantage over a Rebar or Supertool except the outside opening tools. I also wonder if only the magnet holds the blade in place. If those pop out easily they’ll likely face a ton of lawsuits.
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Online sales several months before retail. Let’s them ramp up production and gauge demand before they commit to production capacity. Also allows them to catch/address issues without a major store recall, so suggests they want to be cautious with this new design. They have a lot riding on Free, especially when they knock their leading product, which was a surprise.
I once tried to remove one of those neo magnets from a necklace catch and it was damn near impossible. Had to drill a hole from behind the magnet to push it out, and ended up cracking it. They’re brittle as glass. Leatherman are positioning tiny individual magnets recessed into the frame for each tool, which have little extensions that match up to the magnet. They’re probably not going anywhere unless there’s major abuse.
Post by: gadgetman7 on February 03, 2019, 03:00:06 PM
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Post by: gadgetman7 on February 03, 2019, 03:01:30 PM
I meant if the magnets don’t hold the tools in tight the blades could pop out. Sorry I wasn’t clear.If they actually try to sell them online at MSRP it’ll be interesting to see how they sell. I see no advantage over a Rebar or Supertool except the outside opening tools. I also wonder if only the magnet holds the blade in place. If those pop out easily they’ll likely face a ton of lawsuits.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Online sales several months before retail. Let’s them ramp up production and gauge demand before they commit to production capacity. Also allows them to catch/address issues without a major store recall, so suggests they want to be cautious with this new design. They have a lot riding on Free, especially when they knock their leading product, which was a surprise.
I once tried to remove one of those neo magnets from a necklace catch and it was damn near impossible. Had to drill a hole from behind the magnet to push it out, and ended up cracking it. They’re brittle as glass. Leatherman are positioning tiny individual magnets recessed into the frame for each tool, which have little extensions that match up to the magnet. They’re probably not going anywhere unless there’s major abuse.
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Post by: Max Stone on February 03, 2019, 03:15:09 PM
Post by: WWW on February 03, 2019, 03:48:29 PM
So, all in all, I am hella excited about the new multi tools from Leatherman.
My only real concern is this:
Quality control
Everything about the tool is going to be dependant on top-notch QC and performance standards. I have yet to see Leatherman produce a perfectly consistent line of tools. The new system will be hindered with just the slightest rubbing, pivot tightness/looseness,, magnet strength consistency, and tool quality. I hope Leatherman pulls out a winner, but I can't help, but think about the files rubbing the handle on my Charge, one side of handles stronger than the other at the plier end on my Wave, wobbly Wingman handles, inconsistent pivot tightness on many tools, etc.
If they are going to release these, and charge more than the cost of a SwissTool/Sprit, they better damned be ready to make sure each one of the Free tools doesn't leave the factory without expert scrutiny. :ahhh
You said it all, I'm a little bothered by the Wingman/Sidekick tools on a multi at this price range. But what I really want to know is if Leatherman got their production quality back on track.
Post by: Wspeed on February 03, 2019, 03:51:53 PM
Post by: Max Stone on February 03, 2019, 03:55:53 PM
Post by: Aloha on February 03, 2019, 04:28:25 PM
Ease of access, convenient, simple, quick, etc could be used instead to better describe accessing these tools. In regards to the video from Urban Prep, I kinda figured the magnets were located as described. I am less concerned about the magnets than what I consider to be lack luster tool choices. I guess with the free technology I hoped there would also come new implement design or refinement of existing implements.
Its not that I'm pooping on LM at all. Our banter here on MTO is tool enthusiast talking tools. I'm just thinking aloud.
Post by: genevabuck on February 03, 2019, 05:22:45 PM
I just realized that I already have a Multitool with a magnetically retained tool...my Lansky sharpener! :ahhh
I have the same sharpener. It is awesome!
Post by: CallsignBadger on February 03, 2019, 07:50:18 PM
I just realized that I already have a Multitool with a magnetically retained tool...my Lansky sharpener! :ahhh
I have the same sharpener. It is awesome!
Me as well :tu:
Post by: Max Stone on February 03, 2019, 08:06:31 PM
Post by: Syncop8r on February 03, 2019, 08:34:06 PM
Post by: Wspeed on February 03, 2019, 08:36:14 PM
Post by: Syncop8r on February 03, 2019, 08:38:45 PM
When you are still selling every other tool with nails nicks tho :dunno:. On the Wave/Charge series only the can opener has a nail nick :whistle:.Perhaps they will wait and see how the Free line sells. If it does really well their bread and butter tools may eventually go.
Post by: Max Stone on February 03, 2019, 08:55:04 PM
Does the Lansky magnet attract filings from the sharpening process?Yes, but it's a diamond file so filings are very fine and don't cause any interference. Creates a fine dust that sits on the magnet's face. Easy to wipe off as the magnets are accessible.
Post by: kirk13 on February 03, 2019, 08:56:07 PM
Al! What took you so long?
Oh, just life getting in the way, mate. Besides which, you seemed to have everything under control :D
Do I? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
New job,and relocated to NI. Dont know about being undef control though!
Post by: AimlessWanderer on February 03, 2019, 10:26:54 PM
Al! What took you so long?
Oh, just life getting in the way, mate. Besides which, you seemed to have everything under control :D
Do I? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
New job,and relocated to NI. Dont know about being undef control though!
I meant as regards this thread :P
Gimme a ring sometime when you get chance John, and we'll have a good catch up :tu:
Post by: kirk13 on February 03, 2019, 10:51:27 PM
Al! What took you so long?
Oh, just life getting in the way, mate. Besides which, you seemed to have everything under control :D
Do I? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
New job,and relocated to NI. Dont know about being undef control though!
I meant as regards this thread :P
Gimme a ring sometime when you get chance John, and we'll have a good catch up :tu:
Yeah,I realised that as soon as I posted :facepalm:
I'll be in touch :salute:
Post by: AimlessWanderer on February 03, 2019, 11:12:37 PM
Post by: NetsNJ on February 04, 2019, 02:02:02 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 04, 2019, 02:13:33 AM
The nail nickless :think: opening selling IMO could be sold differently. I appreciate all outside accessible tools. I also appreciate not having to actually have nails to extract them. When you are still selling every other tool with nails nicks tho :dunno:. On the Wave/Charge series only the can opener has a nail nick :whistle:.
Ease of access, convenient, simple, quick, etc could be used instead to better describe accessing these tools. In regards to the video from Urban Prep, I kinda figured the magnets were located as described. I am less concerned about the magnets than what I consider to be lack luster tool choices. I guess with the free technology I hoped there would also come new implement design or refinement of existing implements.
Its not that I'm pooping on LM at all. Our banter here on MTO is tool enthusiast talking tools. I'm just thinking aloud.
This is my biggest beef. I keep track of the tool components that are truly multi-purpose..and honestly this feels like a step backwards.
The 2D bit exchanger from the wave, the blade exchanger from the Surge...the replaceable wire cutters. These are the big steps forward, the tools on the Free series seem like Sidekick quality with the exception of the hybrid flat driver. Not too pleased with that.
I'd definitely like to see the new flat driver compared to the 4 in one on the Spirit X.
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 04, 2019, 02:44:43 AM
I'm drooling over these. I won't front, I mainly just love multitools for fiddle value. These look to have excellent fiddle values.Always a shining feature of a good multitool. :iagree:
Post by: danilo on February 04, 2019, 11:43:51 AM
I've been absent from the forum for a long time, and then today I've discovered these new multitools from leatherman, and while we wait for hand-on reviews: don't they look like the handles spread less than, say, a wave when the pliers head is deployed and closed? Probably not as much less as a gerber one, but less than my charge.
Or am I the only one seeing it?
If it is so, to me this is a great advantage over other models, since it make it easier to grip on the tool while holding something with the pliers, doesn't it?
Cheers,
Danilo
Post by: Syncop8r on February 04, 2019, 11:52:50 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 04, 2019, 01:17:10 PM
Post by: Gareth on February 04, 2019, 01:59:49 PM
Post by: Sam Lim on February 04, 2019, 02:52:12 PM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on February 04, 2019, 04:22:18 PM
Hi all,
I've been absent from the forum for a long time, and then today I've discovered these new multitools from leatherman, and while we wait for hand-on reviews: don't they look like the handles spread less than, say, a wave when the pliers head is deployed and closed? Probably not as much less as a gerber one, but less than my charge.
Or am I the only one seeing it?
If it is so, to me this is a great advantage over other models, since it make it easier to grip on the tool while holding something with the pliers, doesn't it?
Cheers,
Danilo
It's certainly a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned, plus as I mentioned before, less obvious hotspots too. For example, I thought the Rebar was particularly dreadful for handle hotspots, and even modded with integral cutter pliers and a toolset tailored to my needs, was still bloody horrible to use.
As to the rest of the features, I'm not seeing many real benefits over other tools in the line up. Making all the tools outside access is a plus for me, as it the fact they seem to have reached a higher tool density in a compact format, though still behind the Spirit in that regard. The tools themselves don't have me bowled over though, particularly the tapered profile drivers, for the reasons I mentioned before.
Overall, I'd still rather carry one of my existing tools/mods over this pliers based one, both ones from Leatherman and ones from elsewhere. The knife based tools hold no interest for me whatsoever. Gimme a Swiss knife, or one of my knifeless mods and a OHO clipped slippie, and I'd be a lot happier than I would with those T series and K series efforts.
Despite my earlier mocking of this tool (the pliers ones I mean) I don't see this as facepalmingly cringeworthy as I have some of their other offerings. While there is much about it that doesn't suit my needs (either now in my reduced capacity, or in the past when I was far more active), I can see it being an OK tool for folks who don't use the main gripping area of pliers, or who don't encounter recessed screws. I do think it's a solution in search of a problem in many ways, but I can also see folks embracing it more positively than I would, and not just in terms of the brand name, marketing and other aspects I consider hollow and meaningless.
Talking of which - moving back to the USA stampings, does this relate to a change in California law, or do we think they're not importing components for this line? Not that it makes any difference for me at all, I've never seen country of origin as any guarantee of quality or suitability, but it may have significance for some of our brethren in the States.
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 04, 2019, 05:40:28 PM
I may have it misinterpreted, but it is something like that.
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-made-usa-standard
Conjecture:
I would bet the Free series and other new tools are made mostly in-house, because Leatherman has been investing in new machinery for some time. That is the rumor anyway.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on February 04, 2019, 06:13:22 PM
The tool must contain no more than 50% imported materials and parts to legally be able to stamp USA on the tool. But, if that is the case, then the packaging must state "with global materials" or "Built in USA." To qualify for "Made in the USA", then virtually all of the parts and materials must originate in the US.
I may have it misinterpreted, but it is something like that.
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-made-usa-standard
Conjecture:
I would bet the Free series and other new tools are made mostly in-house, because Leatherman has been investing in new machinery for some time. That is the rumor anyway.
Thanks GLBM :tu:
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 04, 2019, 07:13:23 PM
I feel the way you do about tool manufacturer origins, but I think Leatherman is smart to keep as much in-house as possible at this time. The common demographic for multitool users is trending heavily towards U.S production right now. :multi:
Post by: AimlessWanderer on February 04, 2019, 08:46:42 PM
:cheers:
I feel the way you do about tool manufacturer origins, but I think Leatherman is smart to keep as much in-house as possible at this time. The common demographic for multitool users is trending heavily towards U.S production right now. :multi:
They do still have a lot of overseas representatives though, and it would be interesting to know what percentage of their total sales are overseas. That said, their designs revolve more around domestic carry trends, and they seem to do very little that is geared towards regulations in other places, which could well restrict their selling power elsewhere. For example, they don't do the two hand opening Waves/Charges like they used to, so maybe overseas markets aren't much of a focus for them.
Post by: theonew on February 04, 2019, 09:02:26 PM
Post by: Max Stone on February 04, 2019, 09:09:30 PM
:cheers:
I feel the way you do about tool manufacturer origins, but I think Leatherman is smart to keep as much in-house as possible at this time. The common demographic for multitool users is trending heavily towards U.S production right now. :multi:
They do still have a lot of overseas representatives though, and it would be interesting to know what percentage of their total sales are overseas. That said, their designs revolve more around domestic carry trends, and they seem to do very little that is geared towards regulations in other places, which could well restrict their selling power elsewhere. For example, they don't do the two hand opening Waves/Charges like they used to, so maybe overseas markets aren't much of a focus for them.
About 30 percent of Leatherman's sales are international, so a significant contribution.
Post by: Max Stone on February 04, 2019, 09:18:47 PM
...
Talking of which - moving back to the USA stampings, does this relate to a change in California law, or do we think they're not importing components for this line? Not that it makes any difference for me at all, I've never seen country of origin as any guarantee of quality or suitability, but it may have significance for some of our brethren in the States.
“...Rivera, who led Pritzker on a tour of the factory floor, took the opportunity to mention issues important to the company.
One of them is the inability, because of rules that vary from state to state, to imprint the words "Made in the USA" on Leatherman products. All of them are assembled at the company's Northeast Portland plant and, at minimum, their components are 65 percent made in America. For some states, particularly California, that's not enough.”
https://www.google.co.za/amp/s/articles.oregonlive.com/playbooks-profits/index.ssf/2015/02/leatherman.amp (https://www.google.co.za/amp/s/articles.oregonlive.com/playbooks-profits/index.ssf/2015/02/leatherman.amp)
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 04, 2019, 09:28:38 PM
As far as catering to restrictive markets, you're absolutely right. They are missing out on a lot of possible opportunities. However, that said, they may have ceased production on the two-hand blade tools, because the sales didn't pay for the deviation in production.
One thing is for sure. The Free series isn't going to be carry-legal in a whole lot of markets that could possibly be profitable to Leatherman. :ahhh
Post by: AimlessWanderer on February 05, 2019, 01:11:40 AM
About 30 percent of Leatherman's sales are international, so a significant contribution.
...at minimum, their components are 65 percent made in America. For some states, particularly California, that's not enough
Thanks Max :cheers:
I realize I omitted an important part of my last post. I should have made it clear that I was talking about manufacturing and not international sales.
As far as catering to restrictive markets, you're absolutely right. They are missing out on a lot of possible opportunities. However, that said, they may have ceased production on the two-hand blade tools, because the sales didn't pay for the deviation in production.
One thing is for sure. The Free series isn't going to be carry-legal in a whole lot of markets that could possibly be profitable to Leatherman. :ahhh
Yeah, maybe expanding the 30% overseas sales isn't important to them. Import duties, shipping and warehousing costs, plus local representative's mark ups, often result in a less favourable retail price for their products compared with the domestic market.
Post by: Max Stone on February 05, 2019, 05:58:21 AM
But I agree that their focus is clearly the domestic market with the Free.
Post by: carl on February 05, 2019, 07:02:11 AM
Magnets aren't necessary if you want easily deployable tools, just use weak springs tweaked to just the right stiffness would have done the same job but without the inherent weaknesses of magnets.
As for the concern over rusty springs, I have yet to see rust on Swisstool springs. Ti springs would also be rustproof.
Post by: Max Stone on February 05, 2019, 07:13:06 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 05, 2019, 07:53:10 AM
'World's First Magnetic Locking Multi Tool'
:woohoo:
Post by: gadgetman7 on February 05, 2019, 10:09:15 AM
I’m afraid this is just a gimmick and the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. I guess they thought the Skeletool/Signal/Style PS line was at a dead end so they wanted something completely different.'World's First Magnetic Locking Multi Tool':woohoo:
I guess I’m missing something but the only advantage to this is outward tools, like the Swisstool, that are held in by magnets. The magnets seem to be the only thing new. The tools look like cheap Wingman variants and pliers head looks a little more robust. This seems to be the end of the variation though.
Honestly, I use the pliers the least of the tools and I suspect that’s true of most users. Typically I use the knife the most, followed by the drivers and then the file and saw. Then again, maybe this isn’t typical and I’m just not the target customer.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Max Stone on February 05, 2019, 10:50:57 AM
...'World's First Magnetic Locking Multi Tool':woohoo:
I guess I’m missing something...
No, you’re spot on :tu:
Post by: Etherealicer on February 05, 2019, 11:03:19 AM
I guess they thought the Skeletool/Signal/Style PS line was at a dead end so they wanted something completely different.Please no... the Signal is the next step in the Wave frame... I'm still hoping for a next-gen Wave/Signal that has small tools in the long-tools slot. I could do without the plastic bits, but yes to the hammer.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 05, 2019, 01:30:09 PM
Keyport had the right idea but they are too small to be truely functional: think bigger.
(https://cdn.mykeyport.com/media/magpleasure/mpblog/post_thumbnail_file/d/3/cache/1/ece9a24a761836a70934a998c163f8c8/d343637c4ceced1ae3677420ae350a66.png)
The skeletool specifically could have a number of new versions including some that have a tool on both sides not just the knife.
Cheers,
H.G.
Post by: gadgetman7 on February 05, 2019, 02:29:49 PM
I think Leatherman was far from a dead end on a number of their tools. Where they should really focus is developing a modular multitool that can be use for a variety of purposes depending on the needs of the consumer. Each component sold separately could gain them a lot more revenue. The tool fully assembled could be as much as 200$ and no one would care because it would be completely customizable.Absolutely agree! I just wonder if Leatherman sees it that way since they said they spent 5 years developing these tools.
Keyport had the right idea but they are too small to be truely functional: think bigger.
(https://cdn.mykeyport.com/media/magpleasure/mpblog/post_thumbnail_file/d/3/cache/1/ece9a24a761836a70934a998c163f8c8/d343637c4ceced1ae3677420ae350a66.png)
The skeletool specifically could have a number of new versions including some that have a tool on both sides not just the knife.
Cheers,
H.G.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Raoul Octav on February 05, 2019, 02:35:50 PM
YET YES...I would love to have a handle that slides out of the multitool and i would carry, nicely dressed, a light slim fancy pocket knife.
The future for the multitool, now rebranded multipurpose, is the T1000- a liquid metal, or a mimetic polyalloy (nanorobotics) that can be manipulate to assume various forms
Post by: Raoul Octav on February 05, 2019, 03:04:33 PM
Post by: Max Stone on February 05, 2019, 03:12:29 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 05, 2019, 03:24:27 PM
:like: & :cheers:...'World's First Magnetic Locking Multi Tool':woohoo:
I guess I’m missing something...
No, you’re spot on :tu:
Maybe in the future the Multitool IS our hand?:rofl: So true.
An inescapable fact of future generations for certain. Which generation is first to become cybernetic organisms? :assimilate:
Post by: pomsbz on February 05, 2019, 03:33:29 PM
:like: & :cheers:...'World's First Magnetic Locking Multi Tool':woohoo:
I guess I’m missing something...
No, you’re spot on :tu:Maybe in the future the Multitool IS our hand?:rofl: So true.
An inescapable fact of future generations for certain. Which generation is first to become cybernetic organisms? :assimilate:
Yeah cause mankind will be so fast to give up feeling stuff with their hands. :D
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 05, 2019, 03:41:36 PM
Who would have believed, a long time ago, that people would spend a significant portion of their everyday life staring into little screens and talking about pliers that have many tools that fold out and multi-implement pocket multi tools?
Post by: Max Stone on February 05, 2019, 03:44:23 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 05, 2019, 04:01:10 PM
Flat earthers? :whistle:
Post by: gregpost on February 05, 2019, 05:54:43 PM
Post by: Max Stone on February 05, 2019, 06:43:00 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 05, 2019, 07:17:24 PM
I'm not interested in modularly assembled multitools, they're usually poorly engineered and end up wasting a lot of space. It's probably not feasible but I would be interested in a "custom shop" Leatherman experience where you could buy a Wave or some other platform at a premium and customize it from list of available options. This would give people who don't need a knife a knifeless tool, people who need upgraded steels that choice, people that like OHO scissors in one of the main slots that option, etc. Leatherman are already doing something with laser engraving but they could also expand this to color options, coating options, and other options to make the tool more personalized.
Exactly thats more what I am going for here. Just like how I Modded my Wave to have the key tools I needed from the rebar and slot straight into it. The fact that the Wave/Charge/Sidekick/Wingman/Rebar all had the same tool locking mechanism could have been exploited much much further. If you think about it, Leatherman had far greater customization potential which they could have charged premium for.
For not I am happy with creating some resources for ppl who want to do this themselves, at the cost of an awesome warranty.
Cheers,
H.G.
Post by: gregpost on February 05, 2019, 07:22:42 PM
Hello gregpost, it’s a good idea that’s been requested a number of times before, but I expect that this level of customization will cost too much. It’s one thing to offer some custom finishes, but another entirely to offer a bespoke product that goes down to configurable parts against individual orders. They’d have to set up a dept. for these custom orders with some skilled assemblers and some new online systems/portals to manage the orders. Not impossible (other brands do it), but expensive to set up and run, over and above the extra costs of the custom MTs. I just can’t see them doing this? :dunno:
Yeah, the logistics don't make sense yet so it won't be economical but people want to get the product the way they want out of the box with a 25 year warranty. I am interested in the Free Pliers series simply because they have outside opening scissors in the slot I like them in and the claim of the strongest pliers Leatherman has designed. I'm sure there are users who have no use for scissors at all, it would be nice if everybody had options.
Post by: carl on February 06, 2019, 11:03:21 PM
https://www.leatherman.com/free.html
Finally, a Leatherman with the jewel-like quality and polish of a Swisstool but with much much better pliers than the Swisstool.
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on February 07, 2019, 12:10:00 AM
Great Leatherman Free video!
https://www.leatherman.com/free.html
Finally, a Leatherman with the jewel-like quality and polish of a Swisstool but with much much better pliers than the Swisstool.
And once again, Leatherman is using their best selling tool (the Wave) as an example of a lesser tool than the Free series ... :facepalm:
Apparently they've been selling us cr*p all these years, see how the guy in the clip is struggling to get the inside tools of his Wave to open ...
(which by the way, is not a design flaw Leatherman, but QC that's flawed :twak:)
Who is in charge of this idiotic marketing strategy ?
P.S.: I'm just going to wait until I had the chance to use it before I'm going to say that the pliers on the Free are much better than the ones on the Swisstool ... :pok:
Post by: chrono on February 07, 2019, 03:31:54 AM
Honestly, I use the pliers the least of the tools and I suspect that’s true of most users. Typically I use the knife the most, followed by the drivers and then the file and saw. Then again, maybe this isn’t typical and I’m just not the target customer.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I quite agree with what you said.
Post by: carl on February 07, 2019, 06:38:55 AM
P2/P4 Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=13&v=r6_HNcg5DsA
T2/T4 Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=18&v=IPmYrQIQ1pk
Post by: gadgetman7 on February 07, 2019, 11:34:23 AM
Maybe we should wait a year or two before buying them. We might get a 60% discount like the one piece tools.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 07, 2019, 01:31:44 PM
General Leatherman 'Free' Promotional Video with 'Haptic' locking tools: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=qjroLWXHLRkThanks for posting the videos, Carl! :like:
P2/P4 Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=13&v=r6_HNcg5DsA
T2/T4 Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=18&v=IPmYrQIQ1pk
Those tools look awesome. Now, that said, the SOG PowerGrab and PowerAccessDeluxe looked awesome. Didn't function all that well.
Here's to hoping LM did a good job. :cheers:
Post by: Aloha on February 07, 2019, 04:00:48 PM
Great Leatherman Free video!
https://www.leatherman.com/free.html
Finally, a Leatherman with the jewel-like quality and polish of a Swisstool but with much much better pliers than the Swisstool.
And once again, Leatherman is using their best selling tool (the Wave) as an example of a lesser tool than the Free series ... :facepalm:
Apparently they've been selling us cr*p all these years, see how the guy in the clip is struggling to get the inside tools of his Wave to open ...
(which by the way, is not a design flaw Leatherman, but QC that's flawed :twak:)
Who is in charge of this idiotic marketing strategy ?
P.S.: I'm just going to wait until I had the chance to use it before I'm going to say that the pliers on the Free are much better than the ones on the Swisstool ... :pok:
:iagree:
Post by: Aloha on February 07, 2019, 04:42:27 PM
Heres my gripe. These Free tools appear decent enough. The magnets, the locks, the outside tools, the design over all is fine. Why go after your bread and butter tho? I see the tools still clumping when opened :think:. We'll have to see how QC is once released.
What some of us would like to see is, refinement. This could have been then next Wave with all outside tools. There was a huge rush to tell LM to add the 154CM cutters to the Wave/Charge and they did. They seem to listen which is great but QC for some is still lacking. Heres another thing. If Leatherman is telling us the new plier is the best yet then why is it still left hand pivot?
Read what Vic said, https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,2463.0.html.
I say refine the tools you have to be the very best. Theres still room for the Wave/Charge to grow. The made some nice refinements on the Surge when folks didn't like the mini bit driver. They also made refinements on the blade exchanger. Next set of refinements are QC and further development. We don't need a new tool every quarter.
Don't forget the tools we really like. Reminds me of the Leep and Juice line which they seem to have abandoned. Just keep tweaking the tools something like Vic did with their Swisstool.
Post by: CallsignBadger on February 07, 2019, 04:54:05 PM
:like:
Post by: Aloha on February 07, 2019, 05:08:18 PM
Further develop Squirts. The PS4 is a great little tool but could use some tweaks. Scissor springs seems to break on many users ( not mine so far ).
In addition to what they are doing tweaking and further refining the tools that are already awesome would be wonderful.
Post by: Max Stone on February 07, 2019, 06:25:18 PM
Post by: pomsbz on February 07, 2019, 06:34:55 PM
Great Leatherman Free video!
https://www.leatherman.com/free.html
Finally, a Leatherman with the jewel-like quality and polish of a Swisstool but with much much better pliers than the Swisstool.
Hmmm, I'd wait and see before going for quite such a definitive statement. :D
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on February 07, 2019, 07:26:03 PM
I like the "new" Free series as well (I'll probably get one, or two, and only then will I form my opinion on them), but all the things Aloha said here about improving the tools that are in their line-up right now would be the right way to go for Leatherman. The Wave/Charge series could be improved with some small changes, which wouldn't take much out of Leatherman's R%D budget, but still mean a lot to the fans of these tools. And if for one reason or the other, the Free tools would turn out to be a total failure, they would still have the "improved" Wave/Charge safety net.
In my opinion, Leatherman has stepped up their QC game on the new Wave/Charge + tools. All the "+" tools I have (two stainless Waves, one BO Wave, and two BO Charges) were perfect right out of the box, and I have mentioned this everytime I posted something about the new "+" tools here. I even said my first Wave "+" was the first Leatherman in years that gave me the same fit and finish feeling like the "old" Leathermans did.
And for the love of God, please stop portraying the Wave as an inferior tool just to promote the new kid in town. That slick talking sales boy with his black sheath vs gray sheath talk, the Wave being shown as if it's impossible to open the inside tools ... why ? As a huge fan of the Wave/Charge platform (my most owned tools) this hurts, plain and simple.
Post by: chrono on February 08, 2019, 01:48:53 AM
I agree with everything Aloha has said here :tu:.
I like the "new" Free series as well (I'll probably get one, or two, and only then will I form my opinion on them), but all the things Aloha said here about improving the tools that are in their line-up right now would be the right way to go for Leatherman. The Wave/Charge series could be improved with some small changes, which wouldn't take much out of Leatherman's R%D budget, but still mean a lot to the fans of these tools. And if for one reason or the other, the Free tools would turn out to be a total failure, they would still have the "improved" Wave/Charge safety net.
In my opinion, Leatherman has stepped up their QC game on the new Wave/Charge + tools. All the "+" tools I have (two stainless Waves, one BO Wave, and two BO Charges) were perfect right out of the box, and I have mentioned this everytime I posted something about the new "+" tools here. I even said my first Wave "+" was the first Leatherman in years that gave me the same fit and finish feeling like the "old" Leathermans did.
And for the love of God, please stop portraying the Wave as an inferior tool just to promote the new kid in town. That slick talking sales boy with his black sheath vs gray sheath talk, the Wave being shown as if it's impossible to open the inside tools ... why ? As a huge fan of the Wave/Charge platform (my most owned tools) this hurts, plain and simple.
In order to dis the Charge, they need to create the Free of Charge multi :think: Otherwise, a $120 multi is better than a $180 multi? ???
Post by: Vjeko Posavac on February 08, 2019, 02:24:31 PM
Ratcheting feature, Further develop the Signal, OHO Scissors on the Wave/Charge and add awl, Fix Juice line. Lengthen the blade to where it was. Fix inside opening tools so they don't bite you when you open them. Further develop the hammer feature ?? Further develop the Skeletool, add scissors, the CX is almost perfect.
Further develop Squirts. The PS4 is a great little tool but could use some tweaks. Scissor springs seems to break on many users ( not mine so far ).
In addition to what they are doing tweaking and further refining the tools that are already awesome would be wonderful.
:iagree:
Post by: Aloha on February 08, 2019, 03:00:32 PM
Wave/Charge are the tools I have the most of so I am biased to these tool as being the best of the best, the Surge too. What stings is those who bought the + tools and now are being told these new tools are the best :facepalm:. Its just weird to market this way IMO.
My very personal opinion is for LM to continue to send out tools that TG24 experienced with his + tools. They IMO should tweak as they've done in the past to their current line to get the most out of them. They've done similar tweaks/upgrades, the PST to PST2 and both were made simultaneously. The Super tool thru to the ST300. The Skeletool to CX ( maybe add a mini set of 154CM cutters ) :dunno:. I've already mentioned the Surge to new Surge which to me was a terrific follow up. Who can forget the Rebar. Speaking of the Rebar, what about scissors on that :tu:. Talk about a terrific tweak to a terrific tool :gimme:.
We have some Signal fans that would love to see some tweaks. We've seen what Evil can do with the Skeletool so we know to possibilities as well as other modders who have done some pretty terrific mods. Maybe we're spoiled in that way :whistle:. Maybe we just expect LM and other makers to follow the lead of our modders.
The number one biggest issue with the Juice line is the opening the drivers, fix that. They could re release some Juice models that wold do well. They still have to tooling I'd imagine.
Alright so let me finish with, I am not against the Free series. I think other that what I've said ( wingman/sidekick tools ) I like what I am seeing so far. I also dig the enthusiasm behind this tool from LM.
Post by: Max Stone on February 08, 2019, 03:43:26 PM
BTW, there already is a Rebar with scissor form LM...just no blade... :)
Post by: Aloha on February 08, 2019, 03:48:34 PM
Very good comments Aloha. I’m sure most will agree with you that (a) LM marketing should not be knocking their current top seller, and (b) they should continue to evolve and improve their current lines. :tu:
BTW, there already is a Rebar with scissor form LM...just no blade... :)
:oops: SEE LM what a great idea :rofl: :facepalm:
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on February 08, 2019, 04:13:48 PM
Very good comments Aloha. I’m sure most will agree with you that (a) LM marketing should not be knocking their current top seller, and (b) they should continue to evolve and improve their current lines. :tu:
BTW, there already is a Rebar with scissor form LM...just no blade... :)
:oops: SEE LM what a great idea :rofl: :facepalm:
I knew about the bladeless Rebar with the scissors, but since they already have these two versions it shouldn't be that hard to produce one with knife and scissors (and maybe leave out the saw for example). I mean, production cost on those should be next to nothing (I mean, no need to "invent" a new pair of scissors, since they already have one for the Rebar), and I know I would get one (or two, or ... ::)).
Post by: SteveC on February 08, 2019, 04:36:23 PM
Very good comments Aloha. I’m sure most will agree with you that (a) LM marketing should not be knocking their current top seller, and (b) they should continue to evolve and improve their current lines. :tu:
BTW, there already is a Rebar with scissor form LM...just no blade... :)
:oops: SEE LM what a great idea :rofl: :facepalm:
I knew about the bladeless Rebar with the scissors, but since they already have these two versions it shouldn't be that hard to produce one with knife and scissors (and maybe leave out the saw for example). I mean, production cost on those should be next to nothing (I mean, no need to "invent" a new pair of scissors, since they already have one for the Rebar), and I know I would get one (or two, or ... ::)).
There is no reason the Rebar can't have the scissors without losing anything, there is room.
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on February 08, 2019, 04:38:59 PM
Very good comments Aloha. I’m sure most will agree with you that (a) LM marketing should not be knocking their current top seller, and (b) they should continue to evolve and improve their current lines. :tu:
BTW, there already is a Rebar with scissor form LM...just no blade... :)
:oops: SEE LM what a great idea :rofl: :facepalm:
I knew about the bladeless Rebar with the scissors, but since they already have these two versions it shouldn't be that hard to produce one with knife and scissors (and maybe leave out the saw for example). I mean, production cost on those should be next to nothing (I mean, no need to "invent" a new pair of scissors, since they already have one for the Rebar), and I know I would get one (or two, or ... ::)).
There is no reason the Rebar can't have the scissors without losing anything, there is room.
Even better :2tu:.
Post by: Wspeed on February 08, 2019, 04:40:03 PM
Post by: Aloha on February 08, 2019, 04:41:09 PM
Post by: Max Stone on February 08, 2019, 06:14:40 PM
...
BTW, there already is a Rebar with scissor from LM...just no blade... :)
...
There is no reason the Rebar can't have the scissors without losing anything, there is room.
Yes, lots of space in the Rebar. I got in the Wave scissors, 2 full length files, the existing SE and PE blades and the std saw, with room still for a few more short tools. :ahhh
Post by: Wspeed on February 08, 2019, 06:31:06 PM
Post by: gregpost on February 08, 2019, 06:54:13 PM
I don't make much of Leatherman calling this new line their best. They designed all these tools, they would know. That being said the market decides what it likes. I'm sure when they released the original Wave, there were PST users who already found all the multitool they needed.
Post by: rdub934 on February 08, 2019, 06:54:57 PM
Post by: Blackbeard on February 09, 2019, 02:18:47 AM
I think there is a different way to sell this tool. Going after the Wave/Charge or all of their other tools is just weird. I really like the outside accessible tools. I like the new locks ( we'll see once in hand ). I like the determination to come up with ideas and set them in motion but.... It seems they quit on them if they don't WOW the market.
Heres my gripe. These Free tools appear decent enough. The magnets, the locks, the outside tools, the design over all is fine. Why go after your bread and butter tho? I see the tools still clumping when opened :think:. We'll have to see how QC is once released.
What some of us would like to see is, refinement. This could have been then next Wave with all outside tools. There was a huge rush to tell LM to add the 154CM cutters to the Wave/Charge and they did. They seem to listen which is great but QC for some is still lacking. Heres another thing. If Leatherman is telling us the new plier is the best yet then why is it still left hand pivot?
Read what Vic said, https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,2463.0.html.
I say refine the tools you have to be the very best. Theres still room for the Wave/Charge to grow. The made some nice refinements on the Surge when folks didn't like the mini bit driver. They also made refinements on the blade exchanger. Next set of refinements are QC and further development. We don't need a new tool every quarter.
Don't forget the tools we really like. Reminds me of the Leep and Juice line which they seem to have abandoned. Just keep tweaking the tools something like Vic did with their Swisstool.
This is an intentional "feature" according to video from shot show I guess they think it's faster or better? odd
Post by: jaya_man on February 09, 2019, 02:47:13 AM
Well, except the lanyard ring... At least thats’s how I added the scissors on mine...Very good comments Aloha. I’m sure most will agree with you that (a) LM marketing should not be knocking their current top seller, and (b) they should continue to evolve and improve their current lines. :tu:
BTW, there already is a Rebar with scissor form LM...just no blade... :)
:oops: SEE LM what a great idea :rofl: :facepalm:
I knew about the bladeless Rebar with the scissors, but since they already have these two versions it shouldn't be that hard to produce one with knife and scissors (and maybe leave out the saw for example). I mean, production cost on those should be next to nothing (I mean, no need to "invent" a new pair of scissors, since they already have one for the Rebar), and I know I would get one (or two, or ... ::)).
There is no reason the Rebar can't have the scissors without losing anything, there is room.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 09, 2019, 02:49:33 AM
The really truly genius tools that are in Leatherman's line are those that have ZERO compromise editions. In other words the majority of their tools are as good or better than the full tool.
So far...I have seen 4...all of them are specialized. The RAPTOR, the CRUNCH, The MUT (both versions), and the Skeletool. In particular I would kill to see the Skeletool improved with one more tool on side opposite the blade (keep 154CM or S30V).
I love the IDEA of the Signal but its not really executed properly in my opinion.
Signal improvements IMO:
*Straight blade only, 154CM steel
* REMOVE THE GOD DAMN BOTTLE/CAN OPENER! if you need something like that to open a can or bottle when you have a plier or blade...I got concerns..
*Inside tool set: Awl, Spoon Gouge (not currently a tool), Scissor (important for medical purposes).
There are so many good parts to the signal too...like the hammer, 1/4inch slot driver...the spare Ferro Rod, Sharpener etc.
Basically the problem is that they lose more money then they make doing these changes, big/flashy/new tools are the cash cow especially when they are $120 for 420HC :rant: :rant: :rant:
Post by: Anka on February 09, 2019, 02:52:17 AM
Anka
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Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 09, 2019, 02:55:06 AM
Really interested in the free series but I am hesitant of the new magnet design. Will let you fine people put it to the test before making a decision on it.
Anka
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
The magnetic system is going to work great, seen it in other tools and never been an issue (they are not the first). However, I have no idea why they are so obsessed with smurfty steel...for god sake... can we get 154cm tools? LIKE THE WHOLE THING! I have 200$ right now for that tool.
Post by: Anka on February 09, 2019, 02:56:56 AM
Thanks for the info!Really interested in the free series but I am hesitant of the new magnet design. Will let you fine people put it to the test before making a decision on it.
Anka
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
The magnetic system is going to work great, seen it in other tools and never been an issue (they are not the first). However, I have no idea why they are so obsessed with smurfty steel...for god sake... can we get 154cm tools? LIKE THE WHOLE THING! I have 200$ right now for that tool.
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
Post by: genevabuck on February 09, 2019, 05:39:24 PM
https://www.leatherman.com/free.html
Post by: SteveC on February 09, 2019, 05:50:03 PM
Well, except the lanyard ring... At least thats’s how I added the scissors on mine...Very good comments Aloha. I’m sure most will agree with you that (a) LM marketing should not be knocking their current top seller, and (b) they should continue to evolve and improve their current lines. :tu:
BTW, there already is a Rebar with scissor form LM...just no blade... :)
:oops: SEE LM what a great idea :rofl: :facepalm:
I knew about the bladeless Rebar with the scissors, but since they already have these two versions it shouldn't be that hard to produce one with knife and scissors (and maybe leave out the saw for example). I mean, production cost on those should be next to nothing (I mean, no need to "invent" a new pair of scissors, since they already have one for the Rebar), and I know I would get one (or two, or ... ::)).
There is no reason the Rebar can't have the scissors without losing anything, there is room.
You are correct, I forgot about the lanyard ring. LM could add one to the pivot like on the PST. There is still no reasonable explanation as to why not scissors on the Rebar IMO.
Post by: choltzapple on February 09, 2019, 08:29:13 PM
Well, except the lanyard ring... At least thats’s how I added the scissors on mine...Very good comments Aloha. I’m sure most will agree with you that (a) LM marketing should not be knocking their current top seller, and (b) they should continue to evolve and improve their current lines. :tu:
BTW, there already is a Rebar with scissor form LM...just no blade... :)
:oops: SEE LM what a great idea :rofl: :facepalm:
I knew about the bladeless Rebar with the scissors, but since they already have these two versions it shouldn't be that hard to produce one with knife and scissors (and maybe leave out the saw for example). I mean, production cost on those should be next to nothing (I mean, no need to "invent" a new pair of scissors, since they already have one for the Rebar), and I know I would get one (or two, or ... ::)).
There is no reason the Rebar can't have the scissors without losing anything, there is room.
You are correct, I forgot about the lanyard ring. LM could add one to the pivot like on the PST. There is still no reasonable explanation as to why not scissors on the Rebar IMO.
I added the scissors and kept a lanyard ring by using the thinner one from a Kick.
Post by: AndyTiedye on February 09, 2019, 11:36:21 PM
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Post by: Syncop8r on February 10, 2019, 01:09:44 AM
Post by: CallsignBadger on February 10, 2019, 01:13:24 AM
Post by: gadgetman7 on February 10, 2019, 02:29:18 AM
I want a Surge Free TTIThat would be great!
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Post by: Sam Lim on February 10, 2019, 04:50:12 PM
They just put the Free Series on the website.
https://www.leatherman.com/free.html
The P4 looked ultra big in the guy's hands though. Almost like fiddling with a Freehand sized tool one handed...
Post by: Syncop8r on February 10, 2019, 07:34:18 PM
Post by: gregpost on February 10, 2019, 07:54:08 PM
Surge-sized with Wingman implements.
There's a small file and flatter "2D" phillips but they're not the same implements as the Wingman. Maybe the same style but not exact swaps.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 10, 2019, 08:52:21 PM
Surge-sized with Wingman implements.
God that sounds terrible. I'm not sure I want to give up better implements for easier opening.
Post by: gadgetman7 on February 10, 2019, 11:48:12 PM
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Post by: gerleatherberman on February 11, 2019, 01:19:40 AM
Post by: CallsignBadger on February 11, 2019, 01:36:50 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 11, 2019, 01:57:10 AM
For the sake of multi tool future, we must allow the Free to come into consumer possession before the final criticisms ensue.
The big knife companies told Tim Leatherman that the PST was not a good idea and rejected it. :)
Post by: CallsignBadger on February 11, 2019, 02:01:04 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 11, 2019, 02:05:56 AM
:iagree: :tu::cheers:
Post by: CallsignBadger on February 11, 2019, 02:08:25 AM
Post by: Syncop8r on February 11, 2019, 06:13:48 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 11, 2019, 07:38:38 AM
Ok.... what do we talk about then? :think: ;)See if Grant can get a pre-order setup for the Free series. :multi:
Post by: ReamerPunch on February 11, 2019, 07:47:39 AM
:multi:
For the sake of multi tool future, we must allow the Free to come into consumer possession before the final criticisms ensue.
The big knife companies told Tim Leatherman that the PST was not a good idea and rejected it. :)
These made for an interesting read for sure.
Leatherman Rejection Letters (https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,75719.0.html)
Those would make great taglines.
"Rejected by Kershaw, Case, Stanley, Buck, and Gerber. Accepted by you."
Post by: ReamerPunch on February 11, 2019, 07:49:00 AM
I'm not entirely certain of what it actually functions like, but I'm gonna poo on it before I try one
I cannot see how that would improve performance in any way whatsoever. :pok:
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 11, 2019, 08:09:30 AM
Those are always fun to look at. :):multi:
For the sake of multi tool future, we must allow the Free to come into consumer possession before the final criticisms ensue.
The big knife companies told Tim Leatherman that the PST was not a good idea and rejected it. :)
These made for an interesting read for sure.
Leatherman Rejection Letters (https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,75719.0.html)
Those would make great taglines.
"Rejected by Kershaw, Case, Stanley, Buck, and Gerber. Accepted by you."
I think that would make a fantastic ad campaign. Certainly more honest than having representatives dis the current production tools. :like:
If the tool had loose pivots, then maybe the poo...nah...that's too gross for me to think about. :rofl:I'm not entirely certain of what it actually functions like, but I'm gonna poo on it before I try one
I cannot see how that would improve performance in any way whatsoever. :pok:
Post by: carl on February 11, 2019, 08:51:53 AM
I want a Surge Free TTII do too but I know its not going to happen any more than a Surge-sized Charge.
Post by: ReamerPunch on February 11, 2019, 10:45:09 AM
I'm not entirely certain of what it actually functions like, but I'm gonna poo on it before I try one
I cannot see how that would improve performance in any way whatsoever. :pok:
If the tool had loose pivots, then maybe the poo...nah...that's too gross for me to think about. :rofl:
It'll turn into BO :D
Post by: balvenie on February 11, 2019, 02:00:57 PM
Yeah... I'm interested as wellOk.... what do we talk about then? :think: ;)See if Grant can get a pre-order setup for the Free series. :multi:
Post by: Max Stone on February 11, 2019, 02:04:25 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 11, 2019, 02:27:03 PM
(https://toolguyd.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Leatherman-Free-Multi-Tool-P26-P2-Fanned-Open.jpg)
(https://toolguyd.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Leatherman-Free-Multi-Tool-P26-P4-Fanned-Open.jpg)
What is the weight?
What are the Dimensions? Especially the P2, I would love to find it was similar to the Spirit X in profile and thickness, meaning it would be significantly more pocket-able.
How easy is it to move the tools around?
Are the Pliers Spring loaded? Couldn't tell
From a modders' perspective..
Can I shape current tools to fit this system? if so I am sold right now on it.
Can I shape the Can opener into a spoon gouge? (will depend on how thick it is)
Positive Observations right off the bat..
+ the new flat driver looks excellent I wish they would show how it is twice as thick as the current flat drivers (excellent) :woohoo:
+ the magnetic system is going to work perfectly assuming its based off similar systems I have seen before. Now that I see it, I'm surprised it hasn't shown up before. :tu:
+ I really like the distinction between P2 and P4 and their thickness differences.
+ After some investigation they cost is much more reasonable than you might think. The MSRP of some tools by SOG and Gerber are as high or higher and they are significantly worse in construction and materials. :tu:
+ the Plier shape looks excellent, should work great on most projects.
+ made in the USA, this is a bigger deal than ppl realize. And in order for them to afford the tooling to expand on different tool sets in the future they are really depending on this tool selling well. :hatsoff:
+ The Philips has a bottle opener attached to it that has NO effect on the tool! Thank you for learning from Victorinox on this one, this is a bottle opener I am ok with. :tu:
+ The smaller flat has measurements on the opposite side (nice free tools that cost no functionality). :hatsoff:
Some differences that need investigation:
- the size of the file makes me wonder how useful it is. :think:
- how useful is the Philips drivers (it wont work with the adapter for the square drivers which is a bummer) :cry:
- Can't wait to try the new scissor design and see how it stacks up next to the king...the Vic scissors. :climber:
- Is the punch also an AWL? if so, how good is it? :think:
more notes incoming...
I think I have decided I will be making a video where I IMMEDIATELY ruin its warranty by dissembling it for science lol.
Cheers,
HG
Post by: SteveC on February 11, 2019, 03:10:31 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 11, 2019, 03:22:38 PM
Brown Oxide? :rofl:
It'll turn into BO :D
Yes, I think there will be many MTO users interested. Especially outside US as we’ll be even further down the list for retail sales availability. :iagree::like:
The pre-order deal sure makes it easier to get tools out around the globe. The times Grant has done the pre-orders, our international members avoided the excessive markup. :woohoo:
Ok, lets take a close look at these tools from a more objective perspective. There are definitely some important unanswered questions for me..Nice list of positives there. :like:
(https://toolguyd.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Leatherman-Free-Multi-Tool-P26-P2-Fanned-Open.jpg)
(https://toolguyd.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Leatherman-Free-Multi-Tool-P26-P4-Fanned-Open.jpg)
What is the weight?
What are the Dimensions? Especially the P2, I would love to find it was similar to the Spirit X in profile and thickness, meaning it would be significantly more pocket-able.
How easy is it to move the tools around?
Are the Pliers Spring loaded? Couldn't tell
From a modders' perspective..
Can I shape current tools to fit this system? if so I am sold right now on it.
Can I shape the Can opener into a spoon gouge? (will depend on how thick it is)
Positive Observations right off the bat..
+ the new flat driver looks excellent I wish they would show how it is twice as thick as the current flat drivers (excellent) :woohoo:
+ the magnetic system is going to work perfectly assuming its based off similar systems I have seen before. Now that I see it, I'm surprised it hasn't shown up before. :tu:
+ I really like the distinction between P2 and P4 and their thickness differences.
+ After some investigation they cost is much more reasonable than you might think. The MSRP of some tools by SOG and Gerber are as high or higher and they are significantly worse in construction and materials. :tu:
+ the Plier shape looks excellent, should work great on most projects.
+ made in the USA, this is a bigger deal than ppl realize. And in order for them to afford the tooling to expand on different tool sets in the future they are really depending on this tool selling well. :hatsoff:
+ The Philips has a bottle opener attached to it that has NO effect on the tool! Thank you for learning from Victorinox on this one, this is a bottle opener I am ok with. :tu:
+ The smaller flat has measurements on the opposite side (nice free tools that cost no functionality). :hatsoff:
Some differences that need investigation:
- the size of the file makes me wonder how useful it is. :think:
- how useful is the Philips drivers (it wont work with the adapter for the square drivers which is a bummer) :cry:
- Can't wait to try the new scissor design and see how it stacks up next to the king...the Vic scissors. :climber:
- Is the punch also an AWL? if so, how good is it? :think:
more notes incoming...
I think I have decided I will be making a video where I IMMEDIATELY ruin its warranty by dissembling it for science lol.
Cheers,
HG
Post by: Max Stone on February 11, 2019, 03:26:10 PM
If you look at each individual tool, there is a ‘bump’ on each tool that matches up against the magnet, so you’ll need to recreate this feature on any substitute tool. Then the locking system is completely revised. Each tool has a semi-circular notch that locks up against the locking lever pivot, so it looks like the lever is reversed compared to current designs and the locking notch will be in a different location.
All in all, I very much doubt there is much opportunity to substitute tools from other products, even with extensive rework. ???
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 11, 2019, 03:34:57 PM
Post by: Wspeed on February 11, 2019, 03:39:29 PM
Post by: Max Stone on February 11, 2019, 03:53:15 PM
I have a feeling that the promotional tool isn't exactly what we'll be getting. Sometimes early demo/beta test tools are significantly less refined than production versions. Hopefully anyway. :)
I agree, but the design is committed in two key areas; the bump on the tool that has to touch the magnet (gives them an excuse to put a bottle opener on the Phillips), :pok:
and the reversed locking levers where the back of the lever appears to lock the tool. :tu:
Post by: Aloha on February 11, 2019, 06:40:35 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 11, 2019, 10:09:52 PM
The last big deciding factor is the size, if its bigger than the wave (P2) then it has no hopes of getting into my pockets. Especially when the Sprit X has more implements, better ones, weighs less than the wave, and is much much thinner.
Pocketablity is key for me.
Cheers,
H.G.
Post by: gadgetman7 on February 12, 2019, 01:43:10 AM
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Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 12, 2019, 02:34:06 AM
The more I think about it, it’s the absence of the bit holder that’s the deal breaker for me.
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Bit holder or...lets be honest a square shape so that you can use the leatherman bit adapter. I see it as exactly the same thing since you need to carry to bits anyway. Personally I prefer the Rebar Philips with the bit adapter over the very short exchanger in the wave. The length of the tools has mattered too often for me.
The Free series will be very popular no doubt, but I worry the tools inside them are really not as durable and capable as the WAVE, Rebar, Supertool300, or surge. If you depend on your tool to work for you...you need a tough tool. These tools look much less substantial than those of the past. The exception would be the new flat driver and the scissors, both of those seem better in many ways.
Post by: Raoul Octav on February 12, 2019, 06:03:44 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 12, 2019, 07:00:05 AM
I keep in mind that the new tools are not replacements for their existing tools. Their promotional campaign is unfortunate for sure. They definitely could have promoted the Free series as a new line geared towards the urbanite instead of claiming that all MTs, including their own well-loved models(of which some are superior to the Free in work environments), are inferior. :facepalm:
I do think they need to backpeddle the superiority campaign and replace it with a more accurate advertising campaign.
Post by: Raoul Octav on February 12, 2019, 07:29:39 AM
Maybe from that file i could shape a Tshank and use the file and saw from the Surge, all of that in a pocket clip... Hmmm when will those be available?
Post by: carl on February 12, 2019, 08:20:24 AM
Post by: carl on February 12, 2019, 08:28:34 AM
2) What are the advantages of being an 'early buyer'? Will their attention to QC be a bit better?
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 12, 2019, 08:35:57 AM
The early buyer can sometimes expect a bit higher QC, but that said, LM generally doesn't suffer from declining quality as much as some other MT companies. The down side is that the first lot may exhibit some possible problems related to safety and/or quality(non-visible like casting issues and parts structural integrity).
Post by: Raoul Octav on February 12, 2019, 09:13:22 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 12, 2019, 09:37:07 AM
Although, and seriously, it would be awesome Leatherman made sure the world's largest multi tool community had first dibs on the new tools.
Post by: Raoul Octav on February 12, 2019, 12:19:53 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 12, 2019, 02:22:54 PM
Cheers,
HG
Post by: Aloha on February 12, 2019, 04:14:56 PM
This line is a good representation of that. If this tool came out before the Wingman/Sidekick, price aside, would we be more stoked?
Post by: gadgetman7 on February 12, 2019, 04:28:28 PM
I'm happy to see the excitement for the new line of tool from LM. Taking a step back for a second I can see how this new MT is aimed at a certain segment. "We" got the plus line recently which added the cutter to our favorite tools. That was a good move from LM. There are users who dont need or want upgraded materials/implemets. There are casual users who want a tool at their side if needed. I know I tend to forget this.
This line is a good representation of that. If this tool came out before the Wingman/Sidekick, price aside, would we be more stoked?
I don’t think it’s aimed at that market though. It’s much too expensive. I think it’s an urban tool designed for that market segment. (I’m trying to avoid using the term “hipster”.)
I hope there’s a variant with better blade steel and a bit driver. I’d also be willing to lose the dedicated saw for the Surge Blade exchanger.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Aloha on February 12, 2019, 04:45:42 PM
Post by: Raoul Octav on February 12, 2019, 05:20:59 PM
Either way, city/urban edc.
Such a pitty the Free Pseries does not have the Tshank and bitholder
Post by: Max Stone on February 12, 2019, 06:18:24 PM
so...they're present on the site https://www.leatherman.com/free.htmlThanks for the link RO. The video confirms the reversed locking lever system. There seems a lot of cut-outs around the tool's pivot area - more so than current models. :think:
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 12, 2019, 10:43:22 PM
Actually thats an interesting point..Is this a pocket carry? If they are too big (which might be the case), it really has no hope of getting into the city market. The Skeletool may be the best EDC city carry right now, super light and effective. I dont see this every replacing a skeletool, even with only 3 primary tools..if they added scissors to the other side of it I'd probably carry one every single day.
Cheers,
HG
Post by: genevabuck on February 13, 2019, 12:00:08 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 13, 2019, 12:06:50 AM
This is just the beginning.I fear you're correct.
:crash:
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 13, 2019, 03:16:28 AM
This video was very useful, gives weight of or, looks like p2 should weigh less than the wave.
P4: 8.6 oz
Wave: 8.5 oz
P2: 7.0????
Post by: carl on February 13, 2019, 04:02:00 AM
The pre-orders help distribute the tools at reasonable prices for everyone, especially for the international market where companies in the US tend to excessively mark up the prices. The pre-orders do help ensure those who participate do get one of the first runs of tools.
The early buyer can sometimes expect a bit higher QC, but that said, LM generally doesn't suffer from declining quality as much as some other MT companies. The down side is that the first lot may exhibit some possible problems related to safety and/or quality(non-visible like casting issues and parts structural integrity).
Thanks for the info! Can't wait for more info on the P4 - especially the length. An earlier post said it was 4.25 inches as shown on a seller site but that info was later taken down.
Post by: CallsignBadger on February 13, 2019, 04:55:19 AM
I’m definitely interested in how this all turns out :popcorn:
Post by: alexTOOL on February 13, 2019, 12:01:15 PM
Post by: ThePeacent on February 13, 2019, 12:34:35 PM
This is just the beginning.
(https://i.imgur.com/c20RqGt.jpg)
Post by: Wspeed on February 13, 2019, 12:39:46 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 13, 2019, 01:01:36 PM
http://youtu.be/iT90YrtFxfM
7.6 oz for the P2, and the spirit is way way way more tool dense than these new tools... ::) ::)
once again, why are they bashing the Skeletool...Which has a bit exchanger(nothing like these), pliers, and a 154CM blade...
Post by: SteveC on February 13, 2019, 01:58:52 PM
:facepalm:
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on February 13, 2019, 02:13:33 PM
I want to slap him everytime he says " You no longer got to use your finger nails " :megaslap:
:facepalm:
:iagree:
But I can think of a couple more reasons why he deserves a good :megaslap:.
Or maybe he just really likes his finger nails ... :whistle:
Show content
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQG46mb-QJY
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 13, 2019, 02:19:21 PM
Sorry to say this, but that isn't a logical comparison. The Spirit absolutely requires fingernails to access anything and requires two handed opening to access anything(I've figured out some OHO for some of its' tools, but it isn't reliable). That allows for a denser tool selection(ex. Spirit X has five on each handle). The P2's outer slotted tools are much larger as well. Kind of like comparing apples and potatoes. And the Spirit has a terribly outdated plier head. I like my Spirits, but I think they need a lot of work to compete with many new designs from a lot of manufacturers.http://youtu.be/iT90YrtFxfM
7.6 oz for the P2, and the spirit is way way way more tool dense than these new tools... ::) ::)
If the Free P2 and P4 are not plagued with QC issues, they are going to be far more easily operated than the SwissTools.
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 13, 2019, 02:45:48 PM
I want to slap him everytime he says " You no longer got to use your finger nails " :megaslap::rofl:
:facepalm:
Oh man, Steve. You don't got to visit the area where I live. They got to, they seen it, they done it, they eat then, they come up, etc, etc.
Post by: Aloha on February 13, 2019, 03:08:51 PM
The clumping of the tools when accessing them is now a feature :rofl:. Ok I had to laugh. I get it tho, they are all "fanned" so you can engage the one you need. Still pretty funny. I get why he says if he sees the grey sheath he knows you have the best MT in the industry, he's clumsily saying as opposed to all other makers.
The T Series is interesting. Its always hard for me to determine size. Those scales look nice to me. The T series seems priced right. I do like the pocket clip and assortment of tools on it. Interesting where he said the magnets are located. Start at 7:00, he says in the plastic.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 13, 2019, 04:01:35 PM
Spirit X: 7.4 oz (I'm also betting that that Spirit is thinner as well)
P2: 7.5 oz
From a function standpoint, aka purely what they are capable of, the spirit wins hands down. And the spirit has both a pry bar flat head, and a full 3d Philips. The only reason I don't carry it every day atm is that I am enjoying my new wave. I agree with the pliers though, that is one area that could use major improvement, I might actually mod mine to make them more useful. I actually prefer not having the removable cutters because it provides better plier gripping.
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 13, 2019, 04:17:56 PM
This just isn't the thread for it.
Post by: gregpost on February 13, 2019, 05:41:47 PM
The Spirit absolutely requires fingernails to access anything and requires two handed opening to access anything(I've figured out some OHO for some of its' tools, but it isn't reliable).
I would love to see Victorinox make something for the American market with OHO blades on the Swisstools platform. Also please redesign that awful scissor on the Spirt. I like clumping on Leatherman tools, for me it does make it easier to get a tool out. I'm not exactly sure what real benefit this magnet system will have for that purpose but hopefully it'll be smoother to deploy.
Still undecided between P2 and P4. I want to edc it so I'm leaning towards the P2 but I read somewhere it's just a bit longer than a Wave but less thick.
Post by: Aloha on February 13, 2019, 06:46:23 PM
I'll make a thread at some point to elaborate on the serious limitations of the Spirit, because of the thin profile and amount of fold out blades. :tu:
This just isn't the thread for it.
My big irk are the scissors. I had a totally fail on paracord recently. I've modded them and sharpened them all I could. They are not in the league of what Vic scissors ( SAKs ) could be. My Squirt dominates them all day long. My other soon to be issue is the Philips. I willl have a rounded phillips soon enough. I love the tool otherwise. My Swisstool will also have a round phillips soon. Prolonged use on my part with both tools.
Post by: SteveC on February 13, 2019, 09:37:57 PM
Post by: carl on February 13, 2019, 11:16:18 PM
It would be nice if they would publish the specs on size and weight :pok:
Yes it would be nice. Here's my take on the P2/P4:
Length: I'm thinking the length will be 4.3 inch or so. From the plier pivot on one end to the tool pivot on the other end, the length is probably going to be the same as a Wave, but with the extra added length of the shiny tool lock pivot at the very end of each handle, the length will be longer overall.
Width: The handles will not be as wide as the Wave due to smaller main blades.
Thickness: The handles will be slimmer because there are no more liner locks which add a significant amount of thinkness to the Wave.
I hope they make an adapter/detachable bit driver sometime in the future. I don't see where it might go on the tool though.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on February 14, 2019, 02:26:51 AM
The Gerber Flik, and Freehand and Grappler all had tools you could get out without fingernails, and with thinnish gloves on. The Grappler was all external and one hand opening anyway (before LM brought out the OHT), and the Flik and Freehand had the tool lifting locks. Likewise, if clumping was brought back on the Rebar and ST300, you could access the tools with gloves on, as opening the knife (which can be done with gloves), would bring the rest of that handle's tools out. I don't know if any of the more recent SOGs would be glove friendly too, but then I'm not sure they qualify as tools either :D
Heck, even the Wave (which they're using to justify this development) has a built in nail nick substitute feature anyway - depress lock, remove pocket clip, use end of clip to fish tool out, and put clip back on. Done!. For those who don't know it, the jewellers screwdriver in a Victorinox corkscrew is good for accessing nail nicks on the knife in just the same way.
Polymer backsprings and magnets? Not convinced, sorry! So they had a robot open and close it a gazillion times. Did it do any work with it, or fumble and drop it with a tool extended, or subject it to high torque, or get sand and grit in it? I just hope the first few guinea pigs on here that buy it, have got good photography skills :P
I can't help but think the underlying reason it was really done was simply cheaper manufacturing, cunningly marketed as "new features", but without seeing the full giblets, it's hard to make a call as to whether it really is a positive development, or a potential liability.
Post by: SteveC on February 14, 2019, 05:46:20 AM
:whistle:
Post by: CallsignBadger on February 14, 2019, 05:59:01 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 14, 2019, 06:20:16 AM
Some users have bought several thousand dollars(or more) worth of Leathermans......hear that Leatherman? I'm one of them. I need a Freebie P4! :pok:
Post by: Poncho65 on February 14, 2019, 12:31:55 PM
I think LM should give MTo 10 of each Free tool for free to fully test :D
:whistle:
:iagree: :like:
Post by: Wspeed on February 14, 2019, 12:57:26 PM
Post by: Aloha on February 14, 2019, 01:39:01 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 14, 2019, 03:29:58 PM
Thoughts on actually taking a serious file and grinding it down to be both a pry bar and file tool for this thing? Are file and pry bar steels similar?
Cheers,
HG
Post by: Max Stone on February 14, 2019, 08:25:02 PM
Post by: Wspeed on February 14, 2019, 08:26:54 PM
Post by: Max Stone on February 14, 2019, 08:27:16 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 14, 2019, 08:29:06 PM
I’d expect file steel to be harder but more brittle. Not good for prying. ???
yea, that makes sense, I think of the of requirements of a file is super hardness so that it can cut softer steels...anyone seen a file prybar before? I'd be happy with a diamond file which is diamond dust attached to metal with adhesive???.
Edit: quick research says I am on to something with a diamond file, the surface and the metal it is attached too has completely different hardnesses. So you could make a a pry bar from a double sided diamond file.
Post by: Max Stone on February 14, 2019, 08:30:25 PM
Post by: Wspeed on February 14, 2019, 08:31:35 PM
...spent the best part of a day resizing a Wave file to fit my Rebar. Drilling a new pivot hole was a real b... :rant:Not a easy job to drill hardened steel :facepalm:
Post by: Max Stone on February 14, 2019, 08:34:10 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 14, 2019, 08:36:49 PM
Post by: Max Stone on February 14, 2019, 08:43:48 PM
Post by: Wspeed on February 14, 2019, 08:50:22 PM
Post by: Max Stone on February 14, 2019, 08:52:10 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 14, 2019, 09:17:53 PM
Edit: I use these.
https://m.harborfreight.com/carbide-tip-glass-and-tile-cutting-drill-bit-set-6-pc-68168.html?utm_referrer=direct%2Fnot provided
Post by: ThePeacent on February 14, 2019, 09:18:53 PM
Not a easy job to drill hardened steel :facepalm:
(https://i.imgur.com/y5Vr50W.gif)
Post by: Max Stone on February 14, 2019, 09:28:02 PM
Post by: Max Stone on February 14, 2019, 09:30:07 PM
Drilling hardened steel, including files, is pretty easy. Just use carbide(coated is fine too, but be extra careful)glass drilling bits and some lubrication. :tu:
Edit: I use these.
https://m.harborfreight.com/carbide-tip-glass-and-tile-cutting-drill-bit-set-6-pc-68168.html?utm_referrer=direct%2Fnot provided
Thanks GLBM. Good to know :tu:
Post by: Max Stone on February 14, 2019, 09:30:54 PM
Post by: Wspeed on February 14, 2019, 09:50:39 PM
Drilling hardened steel, including files, is pretty easy. Just use carbide(coated is fine too, but be extra careful)glass drilling bits and some lubrication. :tu:Thanks GLBM I will have a look for some of those :cheers: :like:
Edit: I use these.
https://m.harborfreight.com/carbide-tip-glass-and-tile-cutting-drill-bit-set-6-pc-68168.html?utm_referrer=direct%2Fnot provided
Post by: Wspeed on February 14, 2019, 09:51:33 PM
:rofl: :rofl: :facepalm:Not a easy job to drill hardened steel :facepalm:
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 14, 2019, 10:29:11 PM
I think maybe a file/pry bar is definitely a thing..but maybe not ON a multi tool. In reality is probably a good idea to have the diamond file separate anyway.
Post by: SteveC on February 14, 2019, 10:29:23 PM
Drilling hardened steel, including files, is pretty easy. Just use carbide(coated is fine too, but be extra careful)glass drilling bits and some lubrication. :tu:
Edit: I use these.
https://m.harborfreight.com/carbide-tip-glass-and-tile-cutting-drill-bit-set-6-pc-68168.html?utm_referrer=direct%2Fnot provided
:iagree:
I use one like this
(https://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k115/asc67/Multi%20tools%20and%20Knifes/Rebar/Rebar%20II%20mod/DSC09269_zpscnmpynva.jpg)
Post by: Wspeed on February 14, 2019, 10:35:32 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 14, 2019, 10:45:19 PM
Quote from: Max Stone
:cheers:
Thanks GLBM. Good to know :tu:
Thanks GLBM I will have a look for some of those :cheers: :like::cheers:
:iagree:That's a beautiful glass bit. :o
I use one like this
(https://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k115/asc67/Multi%20tools%20and%20Knifes/Rebar/Rebar%20II%20mod/DSC09269_zpscnmpynva.jpg)
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 14, 2019, 10:50:53 PM
Never thought of using carbide coated drill bits :think: :tu: :like:I found out the hard way. For the Buck 110 challenge, I wanted a thumbstud. Burned up several HSS bits trying. I had the hole a part of the way deep and got desperate and just tried a glass bit for the heck of it, because it was my last bit the right size. Went through like a knife through butter. :woohoo:
And, on top of it being 420HC, I had unintentionally hardened it even more by burning the HSS bits on it. I use a table top drill press, but a steady hand, glass bit, lubricant and a little patience will yield similar results. :)
Post by: SteveC on February 14, 2019, 10:55:44 PM
:iagree:That's a beautiful glass bit. :o
I use one like this
(https://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k115/asc67/Multi%20tools%20and%20Knifes/Rebar/Rebar%20II%20mod/DSC09269_zpscnmpynva.jpg)
I used it when I was doing the Wave Diamond file mod. Went through with no bother and no lube
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,67481.msg1309095.html#msg1309095
Post by: Wspeed on February 14, 2019, 11:57:02 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 15, 2019, 01:15:37 AM
Somebody needs to make a sticky about the glass bits for hard steel. :pok::iagree:That's a beautiful glass bit. :o
I use one like this
(https://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k115/asc67/Multi%20tools%20and%20Knifes/Rebar/Rebar%20II%20mod/DSC09269_zpscnmpynva.jpg)
I used it when I was doing the Wave Diamond file mod. Went through with no bother and no lube
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,67481.msg1309095.html#msg1309095
I would have been much better off if I had known ahead of time for drilling the 110 blade. :rofl:
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 15, 2019, 02:29:28 AM
What I noticed in the videos is the substantial thickness of the box opener/flat driver.. its easily thick enough to work as a reasonable pry bar with minor modifications. I also noticed that they have gotten rid of tamper proof torx :woohoo: :woohoo: talk about making modding easier.
The more I think about it the more interested I become.
Who thinks I am going to be the first one to void the Warranty on a brand new 120$ tool?
:whistle: :whistle: :facepalm:
Post by: Aloha on February 15, 2019, 06:31:11 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 15, 2019, 06:32:42 AM
Post by: pomsbz on February 16, 2019, 06:01:49 PM
...still can’t stop starting at the GIF :facepalm:
Not the only one :D
Post by: balvenie on February 17, 2019, 05:37:48 PM
Post by: Max Stone on February 17, 2019, 05:52:48 PM
On April the plier-based tool will be available on LM site. Do they ship international?
Nope...for us outside the US, we have to find another way, maybe MTO may create an opportunity. :dunno:
Post by: balvenie on February 17, 2019, 06:04:09 PM
Ouch!On April the plier-based tool will be available on LM site. Do they ship international?
Nope...for us outside the US, we have to find another way, maybe MTO may create an opportunity. :dunno:
Post by: carl on February 22, 2019, 05:58:31 AM
P4:
2.76″ blade length
4.25″ closed length
Weighs 8.6 oz
MSRP: $140
P2:
2.76″ blade length
4.25″ closed length
Weighs 7.6 oz
MSRP: $120
Post by: gerleatherberman on February 22, 2019, 06:03:18 AM
P2/P4 specs from: https://toolguyd.com/new-leatherman-free-multi-tools-p-series/Thank you, Carl! :salute:
P4:
2.76″ blade length
4.25″ closed length
Weighs 8.6 oz
MSRP: $140
P2:
2.76″ blade length
4.25″ closed length
Weighs 7.6 oz
MSRP: $120
Post by: Max Stone on February 22, 2019, 06:43:39 AM
P2/P4 specs from: https://toolguyd.com/new-leatherman-free-multi-tools-p-series/Thank you, Carl! :salute:
P4:
2.76″ blade length
4.25″ closed length
Weighs 8.6 oz
MSRP: $140
P2:
2.76″ blade length
4.25″ closed length
Weighs 7.6 oz
MSRP: $120
+1 :iagree:
Post by: ddogu on February 22, 2019, 12:19:25 PM
Not a easy job to drill hardened steel :facepalm:
(https://i.imgur.com/y5Vr50W.gif)
LOL tears running down my eyes here :rofl: :rofl:
Post by: gadgetman7 on February 25, 2019, 08:38:51 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: genevabuck on February 25, 2019, 03:36:37 PM
It occurred to me that Leatherman may be using the same magnets that hold the pliers closed to hold the tools in place. If that’s correct then the bit driver may be too short or not have enough magnetic attraction to work.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
From the beginning I suspected that the bit driver would need to be longer.
Post by: AlephZero on February 27, 2019, 08:12:57 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/y5Vr50W.gif)
LOL tears running down my eyes here :rofl: :rofl:
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,40327.msg645684.html#msg645684
:pok:
:D
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 01, 2019, 06:14:10 PM
So no...this tool is not ALWAYS BETTER... Man... that guy angers me... :rant: :rant: :twak: :twak: :twak:
Post by: Wspeed on March 01, 2019, 06:19:34 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 01, 2019, 11:18:20 PM
I think the file was only made to file your finger nails with :think:
Translation ----> useless as &%$# :twak:
My only hope for this tool at least for my purposes, is that the leatherman adapter fits the Philips driver.. if that works.. we have a chance... Cause that file is laughable and I really don't understand that awl shape at all.
Cheers,
H.G.
Post by: genevabuck on March 02, 2019, 12:04:26 AM
I think the file was only made to file your finger nails with :think:
It seems that the available photos show the wood file side. I would assume that there is a metal file opposite of that.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 02, 2019, 02:30:54 AM
It seems that the available photos show the wood file side. I would assume that there is a metal file opposite of that.
nope, the other side is a measuring side I believe.
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 02, 2019, 02:43:46 AM
I may get an instagram account just so I can put my Charge TTi in a white(painted) sheath and post a photo. Captioned "You see a white sheath, you know anything in a grey sheath is an inferior tool."
Post by: CallsignBadger on March 02, 2019, 02:54:13 AM
Post by: ThePeacent on March 02, 2019, 04:39:14 AM
Yeah yeah. We still have inferior MTs, because of the sheath color. ::)
(https://i.imgur.com/sH7RDqG.jpg?1)
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 02, 2019, 05:15:06 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 02, 2019, 07:47:17 PM
Yeah yeah. We still have inferior MTs, because of the sheath color. ::)
I may get an instagram account just so I can put my Charge TTi in a white(painted) sheath and post a photo. Captioned "You see a white sheath, you know anything in a grey sheath is an inferior tool."
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :pok: :pok: :pok: :pok: :salute: :salute: :salute:
why didn't they call this the EDC series? improvements to the OHT and rev/wingman/sidekick series..
Because these tools got nothing on the tougher Leatherman tools: aka surge, MUT, ST300, and Charge TTi to some extent.
And tools like the MUT, Signal, Crunch, Raptor aren't even similar enough to compare.
Post by: Aloha on March 03, 2019, 12:52:38 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 03, 2019, 01:02:47 AM
I can't wait till one of you get your hands on these tools.
I have NO DOUBTS that this thing is going to blow most of the EDC multitools out of the water..but calling it the be all, end all.. not so sure about that. The big question for me is if I can mod it to make the P2 bladeless. Because I would EDC it as a teacher.
Post by: Aloha on March 03, 2019, 01:10:27 AM
Post by: ddogu on March 05, 2019, 09:34:49 AM
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,40327.msg645684.html#msg645684
:pok:
:D
:o :o
Post by: alexTOOL on March 05, 2019, 02:19:03 PM
Some P2/P4 specs from: https://toolguyd.com/new-leatherman-free-multi-tools-p-series/
P4:
2.76″ blade length
4.25″ closed length
Weighs 8.6 oz
MSRP: $140
P2:
2.76″ blade length
4.25″ closed length
Weighs 7.6 oz
MSRP: $120
Two heavy bricks!!! :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
Post by: Max Stone on March 05, 2019, 06:02:20 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 05, 2019, 08:43:33 PM
Two heavy bricks!!! :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
P2 is just fine for a plier multitool Imo.
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 05, 2019, 10:16:13 PM
Two heavy bricks!!! :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:When did 7.6oz and 8.6oz become bricks? :think:
Those are actually kind of light considering the way they are configured. Most moderately capable multitools weigh over 7oz. My Spirit is 7.4oz and Charge is 8.6oz. Those are kind of light at around 1/2lb each. :dunno:
Post by: genevabuck on March 05, 2019, 11:12:52 PM
When did 7.6oz and 8.6oz become bricks? :think:
Those are actually kind of light considering the way they are configured. Most moderately capable multitools weigh over 7oz. My Spirit is 7.4oz and Charge is 8.6oz. Those are kind of light at around 1/2lb each. :dunno:
My thoughts as well. I wouldn’t consider the Wave a brick.
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 06, 2019, 12:01:24 AM
I think of it like this:
Say a man weighs 160lbs, and the MT weighs 8oz, then the tool is 1/320th of the carrier's body weight. That is nothing considering you can gain/lose 1-5lbs during the day from consumption and waste. That is like 2-10 8oz MTs. :)
I weigh 220lbs(it's all muscle I promise :whistle:), so an 8oz tool is 1/440th of my body weight. 8)
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 06, 2019, 03:02:08 AM
:iagree:
I think of it like this:
Say a man weighs 160lbs, and the MT weighs 8oz, then the tool is 1/320th of the carrier's body weight. That is nothing considering you can gain/lose 1-5lbs during the day from consumption and waste. That is like 2-10 8oz MTs. :)
I weigh 220lbs(it's all muscle I promise :whistle:), so an 8oz tool is 1/440th of my body weight. 8)
I don't know why but I cracked up reading this. That's the kind of logic I would use, I approve :tu:
That being said, I would LOVE to get a leather man MUT or SURGE and mod it for EDC but they are just too heavy at 11 and 12 oz respectfully.
Cheer,
H.G.
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 06, 2019, 03:22:25 AM
Post by: aussieman on March 07, 2019, 12:33:58 PM
Or quality side views?
I only have crappy screenshots from the shot show vids.
Post by: Aloha on March 07, 2019, 02:17:18 PM
:iagree:
I think of it like this:
Say a man weighs 160lbs, and the MT weighs 8oz, then the tool is 1/320th of the carrier's body weight. That is nothing considering you can gain/lose 1-5lbs during the day from consumption and waste. That is like 2-10 8oz MTs. :)
I weigh 220lbs(it's all muscle I promise :whistle:), so an 8oz tool is 1/440th of my body weight. 8)
:rofl:
Post by: AimlessWanderer on March 07, 2019, 02:25:14 PM
Is it just me, or do those tools look very thin?
Post by: Obi1shinobee on March 07, 2019, 02:59:52 PM
Post by: gadgetman7 on March 07, 2019, 04:32:29 PM
(https://forum.multitool.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=80374.0;attach=424654)They do look somewhat thin like the Spirit.
Is it just me, or do those tools look very thin?
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Post by: Aloha on March 07, 2019, 04:47:00 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 07, 2019, 05:58:53 PM
Looks more full-shaped than the 2d version.
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 07, 2019, 06:00:53 PM
(https://forum.multitool.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=80374.0;attach=424654)Judging by the frame and tangs, the tools should be just fine. I recon they are about the thickness of the Wave internal tools, or as gadgetman said, the Spirit tools.
Is it just me, or do those tools look very thin?
Post by: AimlessWanderer on March 07, 2019, 07:35:39 PM
Judging by the frame and tangs, the tools should be just fine. I recon they are about the thickness of the Wave internal tools, or as gadgetman said, the Spirit tools.
They seemed thinner to me. :think: Probably optical illusion.
Post by: Syncop8r on March 07, 2019, 09:18:33 PM
(https://forum.multitool.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=80374.0;attach=424654)
Is it just me, or do those tools look very thin?
I wouldn't say you look very thin, perhaps just a little more svelte than normal. :D
Post by: AimlessWanderer on March 07, 2019, 09:35:10 PM
I wouldn't say you look very thin, perhaps just a little more svelte than normal. :D
Ha! I haven't looked svelte for a very long time, but thanks anyway :D
Post by: genevabuck on March 07, 2019, 10:20:33 PM
(https://forum.multitool.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=80374.0;attach=424654)
Is it just me, or do those tools look very thin?
I think they are the same as the Sidekick/Wingman/ Leap tools. Or at least very close.
Post by: Obi1shinobee on March 07, 2019, 11:12:46 PM
I think they are the same as the Sidekick/Wingman/ Leap tools. Or at least very close.
:popcorn:
Post by: AndyTiedye on March 07, 2019, 11:39:59 PM
I would LOVE to get a leather man MUT or SURGE and mod it for EDC but they are just too heavy at 11 and 12 oz respectfully.
Put titanium scales on the Surge and that would lighten it up a teeny bit.
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Post by: aussieman on March 08, 2019, 12:58:09 AM
Signal has pliers/tools section plus blade on one side like P2.
Charge has blade sections on both sides like the P4.
Post by: carl on March 09, 2019, 03:16:42 AM
The scales look thin too.
The Wave's scales are thin sheet metal but with several folds in it to make the liner-locks for the main blades, the body of the Wave has some rigidity. But on the Free, there are not as many folds since no liner locks are used. I wonder if the body will flex a lot during a twisting motion when using the pliers. We'll need to wait and see...
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 09, 2019, 03:22:52 AM
Post by: The Lone Wanderer on March 09, 2019, 05:47:32 PM
Post by: Aloha on March 09, 2019, 10:36:53 PM
Post by: Obi1shinobee on March 09, 2019, 11:27:59 PM
Post by: The Lone Wanderer on March 09, 2019, 11:39:05 PM
Post by: gregpost on March 10, 2019, 05:20:58 AM
Victorinox should maybe update a MT for the American market and they would sell alot more. Just my .02
YUP
Post by: genevabuck on March 10, 2019, 03:56:00 PM
I'll say it again, I cannot wait till some of y'all get your hands on these new tools. :popcorn:
I will be getting a P4 the moment it is available. As for the implements, if they are the same or similar to the Wingman/Sidekick, I never remember seeing a thread here with complaints of them breaking or not working. In fact, I have broken more implements on my Waves and Charges. Especially the large screwdriver.
Post by: balvenie on March 10, 2019, 07:33:26 PM
Post by: Sparky415 on March 10, 2019, 09:32:03 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WvFbAMnhEE
Post by: Max Stone on March 10, 2019, 10:01:12 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 10, 2019, 11:34:11 PM
I just want them to open up the pre-ordering. :ahhh
Post by: genevabuck on March 11, 2019, 12:20:00 AM
;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WvFbAMnhEE
Wow, the knife and pliers are smooth. :drool:
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 11, 2019, 01:30:04 AM
I am excited about the P2 and P4 to be good "off-day" tools. It looks like major fidget factor too. :woohoo:
Post by: gregpost on March 11, 2019, 02:13:14 AM
Post by: gadgetman7 on March 11, 2019, 02:22:46 AM
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Post by: gerleatherberman on March 11, 2019, 03:07:13 AM
P2 and P4 will have a sheath option in leather that's already developed and shown in the video.What happens if the sheaths are offered in sonething besides grey? Does that mean that the P series is an inferior tool, because of it? :rofl:
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 11, 2019, 03:09:25 AM
They look interesting but the magnet thing may be a deal breaker.:iagree:
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I would not be able to carry one to work with me, unless I wanted to remove steel dust from it everyday. :ahhh
Post by: Sparky415 on March 11, 2019, 06:25:49 AM
I don’t think I can watch any more show videos...enough now >:(
I'm so sorry Max I thought people would find it interesting :shrug:
Post by: Syncop8r on March 11, 2019, 07:30:55 AM
I'm so sorry Max I thought people would find it interesting :shrug:
Some will, some won't. Perhaps put a disclaimer next time: "WARNING! Contains marketing spin." ;) :cheers:
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 11, 2019, 07:58:39 AM
Post by: balvenie on March 11, 2019, 08:17:37 AM
;)I sent a message to her. She's yuotuber and belongs to community of makers. I like to watch them as I'm maker as well. She got a LM P4for free so I invited her to write here her feelings about the tool.... Hope she will join as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WvFbAMnhEE
Post by: Sparky415 on March 11, 2019, 05:32:17 PM
I sent a message to her. She's yuotuber and belongs to community of makers. I like to watch them as I'm maker as well. She got a LM P4for free so I invited her to write here her feelings about the tool.... Hope she will join as well
Balvenie do you have a youtube channel?
:pok:
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,77972.0.html
Post by: ThePeacent on March 11, 2019, 05:50:14 PM
Max may have meant he wants MORE Free-series videos to watch. :pok: :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdn_PJP4afY&t=0s
:salute:
Post by: balvenie on March 11, 2019, 05:59:41 PM
Balvenie do you have a youtube channel?No, I'm a private maker :D
:pok:
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,77972.0.html
Post by: Sparky415 on March 11, 2019, 06:04:32 PM
No, I'm a private maker :D
:pok:
Here?
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,63453.500.html
Post by: rescue4500 on March 12, 2019, 02:24:06 PM
Post by: Raoul Octav on March 13, 2019, 10:22:22 AM
Post by: Aloha on March 13, 2019, 02:19:20 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 13, 2019, 09:32:00 PM
Laura need a tripod or :dunno: I was getting seasick watching from the shaking. :whistle:
agreed,
but that video included more info on the tool than many others. Also it looks like much if not all of the tools on the Free Series are unique to that brand. The flat and philips drivers looked similar to the Rev series but they are much much thicker. This is a great surprise, now that I can see that..I am holding out that the philips driver will fit the older bit adapter that can be used by the Rebar/Juice/ST300 series. If they can, I jump on board with both hands. :woohoo:
Post by: genevabuck on March 13, 2019, 09:54:35 PM
agreed,
but that video included more info on the tool than many others. Also it looks like much if not all of the tools on the Free Series are unique to that brand. The flat and philips drivers looked similar to the Rev series but they are much much thicker. This is a great surprise, now that I can see that..I am holding out that the philips driver will fit the older bit adapter that can be used by the Rebar/Juice/ST300 series. If they can, I jump on board with both hands. :woohoo:
That video did answer a lot of questions. I’m even more impressed now. I suspect that this is just the beginning, with many more tool selections coming.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 13, 2019, 10:38:24 PM
That video did answer a lot of questions. I’m even more impressed now. I suspect that this is just the beginning, with many more tool selections coming.
Give me a S30V blade and I will love them forever...just saying. BONUS BONUS If they can find a way to integrate a real, no bs 1/4 bit driver.
Post by: genevabuck on March 13, 2019, 10:47:04 PM
Give me a S30V blade and I will love them forever...just saying. BONUS BONUS If they can find a way to integrate a real, no bs 1/4 bit driver.
I suspect that it will happen. Bit drivers too. This is just the beginning of the platform.
Post by: balvenie on March 13, 2019, 11:21:36 PM
Any news...when will they be available in stores? any luck for Multitool.org to offer a sort of preorderYes... A lot of folks would be interested here
Post by: Happy Gilmore on March 14, 2019, 02:42:48 AM
I suspect that it will happen. Bit drivers too. This is just the beginning of the platform.
I doubt it, I think they were hoping no one would like the charge when they made it. The cost to make them has to make their margins really thin. I doubt very much that we will ever see a NON-CUSTOM S30V or S35VN blade for a leatherman.
Post by: gadgetman7 on March 14, 2019, 03:16:35 PM
I doubt it, I think they were hoping no one would like the charge when they made it. The cost to make them has to make their margins really thin. I doubt very much that we will ever see a NON-CUSTOM S30V or S35VN blade for a leatherman.I think it will depend on demand. The cost of the steel isn’t that much more, it’s the machining. I’d be curious about the sale numbers. Even a switch to 154CM would be an improvement. Heck, I’d like D2 for that matter.
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Post by: Max Stone on March 14, 2019, 09:33:36 PM
Post by: gregpost on March 15, 2019, 05:12:08 AM
Post by: genevabuck on March 15, 2019, 12:55:25 PM
Post by: Dunc on March 19, 2019, 06:49:28 PM
Post by: AlephZero on March 19, 2019, 08:10:24 PM
Post by: genevabuck on March 19, 2019, 09:08:00 PM
I don't think there's any release date so far...
April 17th.
Post by: balvenie on March 19, 2019, 10:21:34 PM
April 17th.:tu:
Post by: Dunc on March 20, 2019, 02:38:50 AM
April 17th.
Thank you
Post by: Dunc on March 24, 2019, 07:19:58 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 24, 2019, 08:17:04 AM
I find it interesting how they are using clumping of the tools as a plus point when they went to so much trouble to to stop clumping and used non clumping as a marketing tool on the WaveNot sure they ever advertised the Wave as non-clumping? At least as far as my Google search came up with. :dunno:
The Wave doesn't have that many internally-accessed tools(proprietary bit driver & can opener on one side and scissors, small bit driver, & lg. flat driver on the other), so it wouldn't be very beneficial to make them non-clumping. IMHO
They may have advertised it as such at some point, but not that I am aware of. If you have a link, I'd be very appreciative if you could post it. :hatsoff:
Post by: Dunc on March 24, 2019, 08:58:47 AM
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7899/47401266152_45f999b49b_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2fdFSZw)6C197213-1471-4F5D-B014-FCA0DE14D4DC (https://flic.kr/p/2fdFSZw) by Duncan Moore (https://www.flickr.com/photos/161056490@N04/), on Flickr
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 24, 2019, 09:18:19 AM
That explains why I never knew about that. 15+ years ago! :ahhh
Post by: Dunc on March 24, 2019, 09:43:01 AM
Thanks, Dunc!
That explains why I never knew about that. 15+ years ago! :ahhh
Lol I’ve been about a while ;)
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 24, 2019, 09:47:57 AM
I had just started using multi tools around that period. Being a collector(only since early 2017), the feeling of having missed out on some awesome multitool stuff, is daunting at times. :ahhh
Post by: Dunc on March 24, 2019, 10:46:06 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 24, 2019, 11:40:54 AM
On a side note:
I just spent some of my "Free P" series fund on a Juice Pro from eBay. :facepalm:
Post by: Dunc on March 24, 2019, 11:48:46 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 24, 2019, 01:04:41 PM
I hate it when that happens , but it’s an itch that has to be scratched:cheers: to that, sir!
Post by: Poncho65 on March 24, 2019, 02:58:43 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 24, 2019, 03:20:29 PM
Congrats on the Juice Pro :salute: and seems like the Zytel series also advertised non-clumping tools as a plus but when the ST300 came out it used tool clumping as an "advantage" :D They are good at using it as both in marketing it seems :whistle: :DThank you, Poncho! :cheers:
Some like clumping. Some hate it. :ahhh
Guess clumping is just another facet on the "we're never going to have a perfect multi tool, because it will never exist within member-consensus" gem. :rofl:
Post by: McStitchy on March 24, 2019, 03:38:26 PM
Tool clumping is usually avoided by adding a very slim spacer. I don't have my Rebar at hand at the moment but if I remember correctly only the two blades got that spacer and do not clump.
Make sense for safety.
Post by: Max Stone on March 24, 2019, 04:16:29 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 24, 2019, 04:34:09 PM
If you want a tool similar to the Rebar, that doesn't have clumping, the Leatherman Blast is fantastic. The Rebar is supposed to have clumping of the tools, but not the two blades. The SuperTool 300 is the same way. But, like the Blast, the Leatherman Core has almost zero clumping. :)
Post by: McStitchy on March 24, 2019, 08:28:54 PM
Post by: McStitchy on March 24, 2019, 08:29:51 PM
Correct MT.
:hatsoff:
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 24, 2019, 09:09:26 PM
Thanks gerleatherberman, just when you thought you're all set someone comes up with something interesting :D :facepalm:
:hatsoff:
Post by: Jaypeebee on March 28, 2019, 10:42:12 AM
Post by: Dunc on March 28, 2019, 11:18:52 AM
Post by: Wspeed on March 28, 2019, 12:39:00 PM
them for the same expensive prices :facepalm:
Post by: Raoul Octav on March 28, 2019, 03:23:24 PM
Reached to Leatherman support , because i want one Free P4 before everyone else (in RO offcourse)
and ... :(
Our Free line will only be available on our website to begin with, and launched with distributors later this year. I am not sure when the line will launch in EU. I do know once it has launched here is the U.S. more information will be distributed about sales for the items. I am sorry I do not have an exact answer for you, it is something we are waiting on to hear about as well. If you have any other questions please let me know.
So, anybody in the US willing to help me buy a Free P4, and send it to me in RO?
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on March 28, 2019, 05:09:12 PM
But at 219.95€ I guess I'll have to make do with my inferior Charge + (or my even more inferior Wave +).
I'm a huge Leatherman fan, but I hope they realize that at these prices, they can put the Free P4 where the sun doesn't shine... Pardon my language.
Post by: Wspeed on March 28, 2019, 05:14:28 PM
Especially at those prices :facepalm:
Post by: gadgetman7 on March 28, 2019, 05:59:06 PM
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Post by: gregpost on March 28, 2019, 08:15:12 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 28, 2019, 08:22:58 PM
I thought the US prices were high. That’s ridiculous! Basically, a rebar with the handles facing outward and magnets. I doubt these sell particularly well. Especially since the Spirit goes for less than $100.
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Comparing apples to cucumbers there.
Post by: gadgetman7 on March 28, 2019, 10:28:34 PM
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Post by: Max Stone on March 28, 2019, 10:48:31 PM
Just maybe, LM don’t want to kill off their Wave sales so they are keeping a price premium? :dunno:
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 29, 2019, 01:51:32 AM
Not to me. They perform the same functions. But the Swisstool and Centerdrive are under $100 too.A Hummer and a Fiat perform similar functions, so they are the same? :think:
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The SwissTool is so behind the times in design, that I wouldn't even put it in with the CD and Free. I have four SwissTools(OG, RS, Spirit and Spirit X). I enjoy them a lot, but I don't consider them to be competitive in the modern OHO blade/tools MT market. They are also a bit expensive for what you get, considering there are no recent design and/or machining upstart costs in the product. New designs have a curve of investment to pay for. Plus, keep in mind, the Free is going to be a fully USA produced tool, which adds to the cost a good bit. I'm not a 'US Made'-snob, but I do like seeing stuff made in the same country I am buying it sometimes(I complain about the jobs in the US, so I walk the walk by buying domestic quite often, at great personal expense). The CD(U.S made) was $119 when it came out, and it has much less design and engineering involved compared to the Free.
Post by: gadgetman7 on March 29, 2019, 09:54:43 AM
I prefer Leatherman products myself but the Free lacks some of the things that differentiate the Leatherman products. Namely, the bit driver and better knife materials . In my view that makes the Free series a more direct competitor with Victorinox and Gerber tools at the moment.
I understand your points about R&D and US labor costs but I just don’t have the same opinion about the tool quality. I hope this line incorporates the changes but until then I don’t see the value. Also, I really think the magnets are a bad idea.
I may change my mind when I get to handle one but until then I’m not impressed with the Free series. By the way, I really hope I’m wrong. I’ve wanted a new Leatherman tool to play with and hope the Free line turns out to be really good.
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Post by: gerleatherberman on March 29, 2019, 01:59:18 PM
The only thing I need to disagree with is that the Swisstools are in the same category of tools as the CD and Free. For me personally, that makes them difficult to directly compare. :ahhh
Wouldn't compare a SOG ToolClip to a SuperTool would we?
My biggest reservation, regarding the Free series, is with the Free's "Magnetic Architecture". Working with steel wool very frequently makes me think the Free will look like a steel-dust covered porcupine. The Free naming is awful as well...IMO
As you say, hope for the best, and we'll at least have fun discussing the Free series once we can get them. The Free P4 is going to cost more than my Charge TTi Realtree Camo, so that is going to immediately make me more critical towards it. IMO, the Charge TTi is a Titan among MT models. The Free series has some big snurfin shoes to fill! :ahhh
Awesometo read you're also a larger MT collector. Sure is a lot of fun having access to so many comparative tools, isn't it? :salute:
Post by: AimlessWanderer on March 29, 2019, 02:52:55 PM
My classifications are small (keyring sized), full size (from Juice to Spirit), and extra large (Swisstool/MP600 etc). There's also locking blade or not, and fully loaded or simplistic/minimalist. So the P4 would fall into my Wave/Spirit category or Swisstool/Surge category depending on size. Whether it's one hand opening, has fancy blade steels, or has other unique features, is secondary to the fact it's (whatever) size, is "fully loaded" and has a locking blade. If it's a 4" tool, it would most certainly be a direct comparison to the Spirit for me.
Age of design is irrelevant to me too. In the minimal full size tool category, any new design would have to compete with my Sideclip or knifeless MP400 mod, and would probably struggle to beat them.
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 29, 2019, 04:43:44 PM
However, that being the case, I have always considered tools that always require two-handed use different to tools that have some one-hand access.
The complex categorization can also be attributed to my being a nutcase.
Difference in viewpoints is what makes MT discussions so much fun(IMO of course). :woohoo:
Post by: AimlessWanderer on March 29, 2019, 05:28:45 PM
You make a good point, AW. I have definitely fell into complex categorization in the last year or so. Mostly by necessity, as I would hesitate to recommend a two-hand-only operating tool to someone looking for a tool with, for example, one hand accessible pliers.
However, that being the case, I have always considered tools that always require two-handed use different to tools that have some one-hand access.
The complex categorization can also be attributed to my being a nutcase.
Difference in viewpoints is what makes MT discussions so much fun(IMO of course). :woohoo:
Totally agree! :tu:
I have quite broad classifications, which would lump together tools which many would consider apples and oranges, but then choose within those classifications, the attributes I'd need for a set of circumstances.
For example, lets say I was going out on a friend's boat (involves carrying in public areas), I might want something pocketable but with full strength pliers (4" tool), with a saw (fully loaded tool). Then I'd look at what other capabilities I might want, to choose which UK legal 4" tool I might want, and what else I need with it.
Well, I might want a one hand opening serrated or part serrated knife for rope cutting and defouling a prop, long reach screwdrivers including a small flat driver for electrical connections, pry tool for hatch access, saw for overhanging branches, decent file for cleaning electrical terminals, and a lanyard attachment point on the pocket tool/s in case I'm doing something over water. So from my options, that's a Byrd Wings Slipit, and my knifeless Wave mod. As I've got a good reason to carry a knife, I might also add a close fitting sheath knife, such as a Cold Steel Finn Bear, which I can remove and leave on the boat, but keep my other tools with me, should we decide to call in at a pub for lunch along the way. :)
Note: A regular Wave wouldn't tick the boxes, and nor would a Free P4, without additional tools to fill in the gaps
Post by: gregpost on March 29, 2019, 06:32:28 PM
I'd like to see an updated pliers based multitool from Victorinox for the American market if making OHO tools is something Victorinox wishes to move away from everywhere else.
My Free P2/P4 hype has kinda died down because it seems too long for first use edc, and I'm not a fan of sheath carry for my primary multitool. I will have to test it and see how good the pocket clip is and how seamless or not it is too carry in my jeans pocket.
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 29, 2019, 08:20:18 PM
My primary purpose for MTs are for my job, which has some requirements, but none that are guaranteed as foreseeable. I could be working on an antique clock one day, a radio the next, and a walnut wardrobe the next. So hard to gauge what I will need day to day, so my default sorting for work is by tool styles, such as number of implements, accessibility of implements(OHO or what not) and accessories. :ahhh
Post by: gerleatherberman on March 29, 2019, 10:18:28 PM
I agree with GLBM on the Spirit design. For the American market at least the design is stale and hasn't continued to innovate. The Spirit is very well made and packs a lot of utility for its size but it has design flaws that keep me from carrying it. The lack of one hand opening on an EDC is a pain. Once you get used to the many excellent multitools with OHO, going back feels like a compromise. The Spirit scissors are also not good, they're probably the worst scissors on a Victorinox tool, who make among the best scissors on their other multitools.
I'd like to see an updated pliers based multitool from Victorinox for the American market if making OHO tools is something Victorinox wishes to move away from everywhere else.
My Free P2/P4 hype has kinda died down because it seems too long for first use edc, and I'm not a fan of sheath carry for my primary multitool. I will have to test it and see how good the pocket clip is and how seamless or not it is too carry in my jeans pocket.
Gregpost,
I apologize for missing your post. My last one was a reply to aimless.
Excellent points and comments. I'd like to see some updates to the Swisstools as well. I like the locking system and fit & finish also. However, as you mentioned, the design is stale. MTs are geared for pocket EDC nowadays more than sheath. OHO, especially in the US market, is also growing in popularity. Having tons of implements isn't practical for most MT users, even though I like having lots of tool options. 90% of my use is pliers and drivers.
Post by: gadgetman7 on March 30, 2019, 03:07:42 PM
Gregpost,
I apologize for missing your post. My last one was a reply to aimless.
Excellent points and comments. I'd like to see some updates to the Swisstools as well. I like the locking system and fit & finish also. However, as you mentioned, the design is stale. MTs are geared for pocket EDC nowadays more than sheath. OHO, especially in the US market, is also growing in popularity. Having tons of implements isn't practical for most MT users, even though I like having lots of tool options. 90% of my use is pliers and drivers.
I agree. I wish the Free series had an option that had a bit driver, T shank adapter, a standard driver that could be used as a light prybar and a OHO plain edge blade with S35Vn. Maybe scissors and an awl on a larger version. It could be really thin and still maintain functionality.
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Post by: genevabuck on April 02, 2019, 11:02:36 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 03, 2019, 12:24:36 AM
2 weeks!:ahhh
You're right!
:ahhh
Gotta put some bucks back for the P2 & P4.
Post by: chris777 on April 03, 2019, 01:37:56 AM
Also they told me they would be available to order on the 17th of this month.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 03, 2019, 01:39:52 AM
Got a PDF of the P series if anyone wants it.Thank you, Chris! :salute:
Also they told me they would be available to order on the 17th of this month.
Is it me or does the P2 have a cross-cut file and the P4 has a single cut file similar to the Wingman/Sidekick?
Post by: cody6268 on April 03, 2019, 01:56:40 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on April 03, 2019, 02:06:51 AM
I see the P2's scissors use the same basic design as on the Style and Squirt. Wonder how it will hold up? I've already had to send in a Squirt for the scissors breaking; and this was on a tool that was carried three times, stored for a month; got it out; and opened the scissors. The spring broke the first thing.
Getting a style PS and probably going to install a scissor from the wave on it. Not even worth bothering. But the one on the P2 looks much much more substantial. Hard to tell without real testing.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 03, 2019, 02:19:00 AM
Thank you, Chris! :salute:
Is it me or does the P2 have a cross-cut file and the P4 has a single cut file similar to the Wingman/Sidekick?
It's shown on the other arm, so it might be the other side of the same tool ;)
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 03, 2019, 02:26:34 AM
Unless they plan on bringing out a Juice sized line....
I'm not so far enthused by what I see, but I'll be interested to hear the insights of those itching to be at the front of the queue :tu:
Post by: gadgetman7 on April 03, 2019, 02:36:16 AM
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Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 03, 2019, 02:54:07 AM
I’m trying to not be negative anymore until I’ve held one but the weight seems a little high on the P2 for basically a Rebar...
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A Rebar has saw and serrated blade. Wouldn't the P4 be a closer comparison?
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 03, 2019, 02:57:40 AM
It's shown on the other arm, so it might be the other side of the same tool ;)I sure hope you're right. The Wingman/Sidekick file is one sided single cut. So I had been assuming the same file. But, now you mention it, the cost of the tool would allow a cut pattern on each side. :cheers:
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 03, 2019, 03:01:41 AM
I sure hope you're right. The Wingman/Sidekick file is one sided single cut. So I had been assuming the same file. But, now you mention it, the cost of the tool would allow a cut pattern on each side. :cheers:
It won't be the same as the Wingman. For a start, these tools lock, plus they have an extended kick to engage with the magnets. Similar styling maybe, but different tooling throughout. :cheers:
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 03, 2019, 03:10:50 AM
Though, I didn't think the tangs would be the same, just the file cut part of the implement. I'd be asked to turn in my collection of tools if I thought the Wingman/Rev/Sidekick tools would fit the Free P2/P4. But, good information for sure. :like:
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 03, 2019, 03:11:37 AM
I see the P2's scissors use the same basic design as on the Style and Squirt. Wonder how it will hold up? I've already had to send in a Squirt for the scissors breaking; and this was on a tool that was carried three times, stored for a month; got it out; and opened the scissors. The spring broke the first thing.
Yup, and the scissors are stowed with the spring under tension, just like the Squirt, and not relaxed like on the Wave.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 03, 2019, 03:17:12 AM
Indeed. :cheers:
Though, I didn't think the tangs would be the same, just the file cut part of the implement. I'd be asked to turn in my collection of tools if I thought the Wingman/Rev/Sidekick tools would fit the Free P2/P4. But, good information for sure. :like:
Ah, sorry. OK, I see what you mean. :salute:
I'm pretty sure it's just showing both sides. The tool sequence seems to be reversed on that arm, and the pocket clip (?) is showing on the P4 but not the P2, as if they've intentionally shown both sides. Also, the description does say wood/metal file, which usually implies two different cut types.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 03, 2019, 03:22:27 AM
Post by: gadgetman7 on April 03, 2019, 03:37:53 AM
A Rebar has saw and serrated blade. Wouldn't the P4 be a closer comparison?Actually, yes. That makes the weight disparity greater. But hey, it does have scissors.
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Post by: gregpost on April 03, 2019, 03:39:48 AM
2 weeks!
Game of Thrones and Leatherman Tools drop the same week!
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 03, 2019, 03:49:59 AM
Post by: Sea Monster on April 05, 2019, 09:59:26 AM
I'm not likely to be updating my own carry though, I reckon a wave (either one) still holds it's own against this latest contender.
Of course, I'm a cynical sort, and I rather think they're addressing problems that stop being from buying multitools, not from using them.
two handed opening a saw or file or scissors or screwdriver has always been much less of an issue for me than whether or not those tools work once they are open.
The Free range looks like great fun to open and play with, and that textured plate seems nice, maybe there'll be a range of fun colours that help express what a fun and interesting guy I am....
Not persuaded they've done anything to make the drivers better than they were 15 years ago, or the saw, or the file.
The Knife range seems fine - no better or worse than the older E and C series, just a different style for whatever year we are in.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 05, 2019, 02:38:43 PM
A few members are guilty of buying tools and not using them though. :whistle:
Post by: Max Stone on April 05, 2019, 06:35:57 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 05, 2019, 09:03:21 PM
...aren’t we all (at least on this forum)? :facepalm:
Some members say they use all of their tools, which I believe.
But, I can say that as well, since I use mine to keep my storage containers from floating away. :D
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 05, 2019, 09:27:44 PM
Some members say they use all of their tools, which I believe.
But, I can say that as well, since I use mine to keep my storage containers from floating away. :D
I like to think I use all my tools, but there are a few that haven't been used... yet.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 05, 2019, 09:51:26 PM
I have a few I purchased specifically to use that I've yet to use. Soon...soon...
Post by: gadgetman7 on April 05, 2019, 10:42:04 PM
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Post by: kingofswords on April 06, 2019, 02:54:13 AM
190 for p4 pre-order.
im out
Post by: ruggedsporty on April 06, 2019, 04:43:49 AM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 06, 2019, 05:18:34 AM
https://www.multi-tool-store.co.uk/multi-tools-c27/leatherman-free-p4-nylon-sheath-p1465
190 for p4 pre-order.
im out
£190 GBP ($248 USD) is simply ludicrous. :facepalm: I (wrongfully) assumed the change in construction was an attempt to make pricing better, while still maintaining required margins. It seems tool clumping and plastic springs comes at a premium...
Maybe if there's a version with a black sheath, it might be cheaper ::)
Post by: Syncop8r on April 06, 2019, 05:30:49 AM
Maybe if there's a version with a black sheath, it might be cheaper ::)It won't be as good though. ;-)
Post by: gregpost on April 06, 2019, 05:34:21 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=uwF4I1S6Up0
https://gearjunkie.com/leatherman-free-p2-multitool-review
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 06, 2019, 05:46:07 AM
It won't be as good though. ;-)
Doesn't matter to me, I won't be the mug buying it :rofl:
I just want those who do, be able to get them at a reasonable price... although until a few people have coughed up and done a review, we won't know what a reasonable price is :P
Post by: Syncop8r on April 06, 2019, 05:53:38 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 06, 2019, 05:56:10 AM
Doesn't matter to me, I won't be the mug buying it :rofl:
I just want those who do, be able to get them at a reasonable price... although until a few people have coughed up and done a review, we won't know what a reasonable price is :P
Man, you ain't kidding. :rofl:
I wouldn't pay $200+ for the P4. Anything over MSRP(as far as US domestic) and LM can kiss my backside.
How much does LM charge for the Charge TTi in the UK?
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 06, 2019, 06:07:10 AM
Man, you ain't kidding. :rofl:
I wouldn't pay $200+ for the P4. Anything over MSRP(as far as US domestic) and LM can kiss my backside.
How much does LM charge for the Charge TTi in the UK?
https://www.heinnie.com/leatherman-charge-tti
£219 GBP ($286 USD) :facepalm:
That's WAY higher than last time I paid attention to them. I've been out of shopping mode for quite a long time.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 06, 2019, 06:36:08 AM
So, being a bit cynical and going off of MSRP in the U.S, the U.K gets to pay $117 shipping(I know there are other fees/markups, but for now lets call it shipping) for a TTi? :dwts:
That said though, the TTi is and will be a better tool than the P4. IMO of course.
Post by: tosh on April 06, 2019, 07:54:11 AM
Only learnt about the Free series a hour ago!
Not read all the posts here, not seen all the videos either. The alox stipple effect looks good. Little concerned about the reliance on magnets...I have to use compressed air at least once a week on my Gerber Balance (work edc) as the build up of filings and swarf cling to the tool like smurf to a blanket! (Work in engineering)
However, as pretty as these are, the lack of a blunt nose version is just a complete turn off for me.
So, so glad I no longer collect as these will cost fellow collectors a fortune. Leatherman will milk this for all its worth, BO, Camo, Orange............ZZZzzzzzzz!!
I'm sure I'll pick a used one up in a few years time, there's no way I'll be paying MRRP on these.
Post by: gregozedobe on April 06, 2019, 01:47:27 PM
I admit to having shelf queens.
:D
I don't have enough shelf space, so I have box queens (many, many box queens) ::) :rofl:
Post by: tosh on April 06, 2019, 07:54:32 PM
LM will probably use the FREE series for their next anniversary model (40th) think I will probably put off buying until then.
I might as well buy the version that appreciates in value - not depreciates!!
Post by: gadgetman7 on April 06, 2019, 09:40:19 PM
Just had a brainwaveIf it’s around that long....
LM will probably use the FREE series for their next anniversary model (40th) think I will probably put off buying until then.
I might as well buy the version that appreciates in value - not depreciates!!
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Post by: AndyTiedye on April 06, 2019, 09:43:40 PM
Holy cow. That is ridiculous.I think HMRC might have something to do with it.
So, being a bit cynical and going off of MSRP in the U.S, the U.K gets to pay $117 shipping(I know there are other fees/markups, but for now lets call it shipping) for a TTi? :dwts:
That said though, the TTi is and will be a better tool than the P4. IMO of course.
Gonna get a lot worse if the UK crashes out of the EU.
Full WTO tariffs on EVERYTHING!
(Of course the US is not in the EU, but the US has trade deals with the EU,
the post hard-Brexit UK would not get a trade deal with the US, due to the Irish border thing)
Post by: Antti Lammi on April 06, 2019, 10:38:19 PM
If price range would go around 80-100€ i would find to justify my bought to myself
Only Tools Matters
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 07, 2019, 04:45:28 AM
Post by: Poncho65 on April 07, 2019, 06:27:29 AM
So, I just proved I'm crazy. Spent most of my P4 fund on the Limited Edition PST remake this evening. Now I have to conjure up more money for the P series. :rofl:
::) :rofl:
But seriously, we want pics when it gets there :pok: :D
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 07, 2019, 06:39:41 AM
::) :rofl:YES SIR! :cheers:
But seriously, we want pics when it gets there :pok: :D
I told myself if I saw one for the price of a Charge TTi, I would buy it. They started at $250, then $200(still too high). Well, Knifecenter has them for $150 shipped right now. I do the best I can to keep my word, even to myself. :waving: :rofl:
Post by: Poncho65 on April 07, 2019, 07:44:51 AM
:rofl:
:like:
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 07, 2019, 10:07:41 AM
:popcorn:
Post by: Wspeed on April 07, 2019, 12:31:39 PM
Post by: gregpost on April 08, 2019, 07:30:25 PM
I don't think the P2 is going to fit my needs for pocket carry.
Post by: Wspeed on April 08, 2019, 07:38:31 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 08, 2019, 07:49:38 PM
Post by: powernoodle on April 08, 2019, 08:04:36 PM
Post by: genevabuck on April 08, 2019, 10:06:42 PM
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.gearjunkie.com/uploads/2019/04/Leatherman.Free_.Images.06618.jpg)
I don't think the P2 is going to fit my needs for pocket carry.
Exactly the pic that I have been waiting to see. Thanks
Post by: gregpost on April 08, 2019, 10:26:30 PM
Looks pretty nice, gregpost! Where did you buy that one? :dunno:
It's not out yet, a few posts back I posted that review from a website called Gearjunkie, they have one of the first in the wild. The photo is from their article. The review is very company friendly however, even interspresing Leatherman's ads into the review(presentation). I'll get one as soon as it hits Amazon. Don't think I'll order direct from Leatherman because my hype has died down as far as using it for an everyday pocket carry, so I'll wait until it goes to other retailers later this summer.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on April 08, 2019, 11:06:58 PM
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bv65lTJAePj/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet
And now I am making a BO surge / ST300 Super surge.. Got too many projects to use my money on, and the p series has no comparability with any of the previous models.
Post by: gustophersmob on April 09, 2019, 01:05:41 AM
My only real gripe is with the frankly idiotic marketing. "Epic haptics?" Give me a break. The swisstools have had tools that click in place for 20 years. Implements with multiple tools? Again, the Swiss knives have had that for what, 100 years?
It almost seems like it's marketed as some kind of lifestyle product. "Haptics" seems more appropriate for iPhones than hard use tools, IMO. Which, really, wouldn't be a big deal except it seems the marketing also wants them to appear hard use. A little schizophrenic?
All that said, I'm definitely interested in seeing these things in the flesh. I think the all outside, one hand accessible tools really is nice and to me would be a game changer if the execution is good.
Even if they turn out to be duds, I do think they are quite innovative. It will be interesting to see how they impact tool design in the future, too.
Post by: italophil on April 09, 2019, 02:10:33 AM
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.gearjunkie.com/uploads/2019/04/Leatherman.Free_.Images.06618.jpg)
I don't think the P2 is going to fit my needs for pocket carry.
That looks nearly as tall as a Super Tool or a Surge, definitely not pocket carry or EDC for me. I'll wait and see what other early adopters say.
Guess my "silly acquisition fund" for Q2 gets allocated on something else. :whistle:
Post by: aussieman on April 09, 2019, 02:38:54 AM
I don't think the P2 is going to fit my needs for pocket carry.
One thing I've learned is that tool weight and width matter to me more than length.
And it's amazing how tiny differences make a big difference in your pocket. I have the Charge and the Signal, and the Signal is significantly less noticeable in the pocket. It's 83% of the weight, but way thinner and I don't notice the 14% longer.
The P2 is 8% longer than the Wave, but the P2 is significantly thinner and 11% lighter. Perfect for me.
And no doubt next year I will be buying the P2-2020* edition with the bit driver, titanium, S30V, tweezers, and titanium milkshake straw. (To eliminate single use plastics) :cheers:
* Fan Fiction.
Post by: gregpost on April 09, 2019, 05:44:06 AM
And no doubt next year I will be buying the P2-2020* edition with the bit driver, titanium, S30V, tweezers, and titanium milkshake straw. (To eliminate single use plastics) :cheers:
* Fan Fiction.
:rofl:
Gotta save those oceans!
Post by: kingofswords on April 09, 2019, 11:22:12 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwF4I1S6Up0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwF4I1S6Up0)
awl doubles up as screwdriver :facepalm:
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 10, 2019, 12:00:59 AM
review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwF4I1S6Up0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwF4I1S6Up0)
awl doubles up as screwdriver :facepalm:
Oh great. Another "we got free stuff and have to be nice about it or we'll not get any more free stuff" video ::)
How can they call it a review, when all they do is repeat parrot fashion, the marketting that LM gave them? :dunno:
Post by: gregpost on April 10, 2019, 12:11:14 AM
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on April 10, 2019, 12:18:32 AM
Oh great. Another "we got free stuff and have to be nice about it or we'll not get any more free stuff" video ::):iagree:
How can they call it a review, when all they do is repeat parrot fashion, the marketting that LM gave them? :dunno:
I need to stop watching videos of the Free tools, the more videos I see, the less I want to buy one... ::)
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on April 10, 2019, 12:30:40 AM
Remember how on some of our tools the pliers were way too stiff to open, and on others too floppy, now all of them are floppy... (but held into place by magnets :2tu:).
And all you need to do is check out which color of sheath somebody has on their belt to know if it's an idiot who bought one of our crappy old tools or a smart individual who bought the best tool out there :2tu:.
Now please excuse me because I feel like throwing up...
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 10, 2019, 12:34:38 AM
Remember how you used to break your nails trying to open the tools on our crappy tools in the past, no more with the Free...
Remember how on some of our tools the pliers were way too stiff to open, and on others too floppy, now all of them are floppy... (but held into place by magnets :2tu:).
And all you need to do is check out which color of sheath somebody has on their belt to know if it's an idiot who bought one of our crappy old tools or a smart individual who bought the best tool out there :2tu:.
Now please excuse me because I feel like throwing up...
:rofl:
Post by: genevabuck on April 10, 2019, 12:54:31 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 10, 2019, 12:57:13 AM
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on April 10, 2019, 01:20:18 AM
I learned long ago to ignore marketing in every realm. I like a product or I don’t. With any product it is for you or it isn’t.
True,
but as a member of generation X, the more I feel like I'm being pushed in one direction, the more I feel the urge to go the other way...
Post by: SteveC on April 10, 2019, 01:24:24 AM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 10, 2019, 01:45:51 AM
Epic Haptics :facepalm:
:rofl:
Post by: gustophersmob on April 10, 2019, 02:59:37 AM
Epic Haptics :facepalm:
:iagree:
Post by: Dutch_Tooler on April 10, 2019, 08:17:13 AM
"Wait... magnets? Coming from a country where most credit card machines don't even read the chip on your card yet, let alone work contactless?"
Am I the only one to find this surprising, and a recipe for trouble...?
Post by: MMR on April 10, 2019, 08:49:30 AM
OK, so I don't know a lot about the Free series, but this was my initial thought:
"Wait... magnets? Coming from a country where most credit card machines don't even read the chip on your card yet, let alone work contactless?"
Am I the only one to find this surprising, and a recipe for trouble...?
Some places in America you can only pay with checks as well..
...yes those hand written checks that people stopped using back in the 70s / 80s over here
And as of 2015 (when I lived over there) you couldn’t make an international bank transfer without going into the bank and filling out paperwork.
And let’s not get started on the gas stations where you have to guess how much fuel you need and go in and prepay for that...and if it’s less than you predicted then you have to go in again and get the remaining amount back.
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Post by: Kev D on April 10, 2019, 09:06:51 AM
for the size and loadout of the tools, they should be cheaper than a Wave+
The P2 is £169.95 :facepalm: :facepalm: no, just no
Post by: MMR on April 10, 2019, 09:32:14 AM
I had a look at the one site in the UK I can find that are selling them, The P4 is £189.95, which is $248.04 US at todays exchange rate. Yeah they will sell loads of them...NOT!
for the size and loadout of the tools, they should be cheaper than a Wave+
The P2 is £169.95 :facepalm: :facepalm: no, just no
That is exactly how I see the free series too.
I honestly couldn’t have said any of what you just said better myself
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Post by: Top-Gear-24 on April 10, 2019, 09:43:18 AM
I had a look at the one site in the UK I can find that are selling them, The P4 is £189.95, which is $248.04 US at todays exchange rate. Yeah they will sell loads of them...NOT!
for the size and loadout of the tools, they should be cheaper than a Wave+
The P2 is £169.95 :facepalm: :facepalm: no, just no
Yes, but does that Wave + come with a grey sheath... I think not :pok:.
Post by: MMR on April 10, 2019, 09:58:19 AM
Yes, but does that Wave + come with a grey sheath... I think not :pok:.And it haz dem magnets 2 bra!!1!1!1!1!1!!!!1!!!one!!1!1
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Post by: Top-Gear-24 on April 10, 2019, 10:12:36 AM
Remember the 25th Anniversary Wave...?
Remember what sheath they came with...?
:pok:
Show content
(https://www.moontrail.com/details/leatherman/newWave/ltg-wave-25annee-sheath.jpg)
How about that Leatherman sales d**che at SHOT show :P.
Post by: Poncho65 on April 10, 2019, 12:04:22 PM
Post by: MMR on April 10, 2019, 01:31:09 PM
Looks old cool, and has a lot of new and modern features....but that’s about it
“Form over function” or however the term goes
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Post by: pomsbz on April 11, 2019, 01:40:05 PM
I had a look at the one site in the UK I can find that are selling them, The P4 is £189.95, which is $248.04 US at todays exchange rate. Yeah they will sell loads of them...NOT!
for the size and loadout of the tools, they should be cheaper than a Wave+
The P2 is £169.95 :facepalm: :facepalm: no, just no
It does rather make a mockery of the series name doesn't it? :whistle:
Post by: genevabuck on April 11, 2019, 11:52:37 PM
That being said, I see posters claiming that this isn’t a heavy duty tool. How are the chassis or implements weaker than say on the Wave or Super Tool 300? And believe me, I have sent plenty in for warranty. Especially the screwdrivers. These look similar to the Wingman/Sidekick in which there isn’t a thread here about them failing. Puzzled I guess.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on April 12, 2019, 01:43:11 AM
While the sheath is different I don’t remember any outcry when the Charge series had different sheaths from the Wave.
That being said, I see posters claiming that this isn’t a heavy duty tool. How are the chassis or implements weaker than say on the Wave or Super Tool 300? And believe me, I have sent plenty in for warranty. Especially the screwdrivers. These look similar to the Wingman/Sidekick in which there isn’t a thread here about them failing. Puzzled I guess.
if your tough on tools don't even consider this one imo, this is for the more casual user.
Post by: Raoul Octav on April 12, 2019, 08:43:11 AM
https://youtu.be/BNDw_0zW-6E
Post by: MMR on April 12, 2019, 09:07:08 AM
....which is half the price of the LM Free!!
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Post by: Raoul Octav on April 12, 2019, 09:07:08 AM
His site offers more details to Free P4 than leatherman. Com
http://www.hangangsa.co.kr/m/product.html?branduid=290971&xcode=046&mcode=001&scode=&special=3&GfDT=bWx3Ug%3D%3D
Post by: gustophersmob on April 12, 2019, 03:02:35 PM
Seems that guy has a store in south Koreea and may be close to LMN.
His site offers more details to Free P4 than leatherman. Com
http://www.hangangsa.co.kr/m/product.html?branduid=290971&xcode=046&mcode=001&scode=&special=3&GfDT=bWx3Ug%3D%3D
Definitely has much better close up pictures :tu:
Post by: MMR on April 12, 2019, 04:45:23 PM
some nice closeups too
https://www.farrar-tanner.co.uk/the-great-outdoors-c71/multi-tools-pocket-knives-c94/leatherman-free-p4-nylon-sheath-p2360
https://www.farrar-tanner.co.uk/the-great-outdoors-c71/multi-tools-pocket-knives-c94/leatherman-free-p2-nylon-sheath-p2361
Still though £165.00 and £190.00 is a joke for a MT....and that's "British Pounds" too
So..
£165 = 191,17 Euro / 216,35 USD
£190 = 220,10 Euro / 249,13 USD
..That is an absolute joke!
Post by: MMR on April 12, 2019, 04:56:41 PM
Sort of like the same category as the Leatherman Tread...which is also hilariously overpriced...
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 12, 2019, 05:21:17 PM
This company that I have used in the past for engraved company gifts started stocking them too
some nice closeups too
https://www.farrar-tanner.co.uk/the-great-outdoors-c71/multi-tools-pocket-knives-c94/leatherman-free-p4-nylon-sheath-p2360
https://www.farrar-tanner.co.uk/the-great-outdoors-c71/multi-tools-pocket-knives-c94/leatherman-free-p2-nylon-sheath-p2361
Still though £165.00 and £190.00 is a joke for a MT....and that's "British Pounds" too
So..
£165 = 191,17 Euro / 216,35 USD
£190 = 220,10 Euro / 249,13 USD
..That is an absolute joke!
Price is a tricky one to get right.
If this truly was the best multitool ever made, then it may well be worth every penny. Many folks would pay more than this just for a knife. I know I have a folder and a fixed blade, which each cost more than that. The price is one thing, but what you get for it is another.
I have also had a lot of disappointments with both Leatherman's designs and their production quality, over the years. I personally don't have the confidence in the brand to be sure that I'd be getting value for money. That has always been a hurdle for me with Leatherman, that I haven't had with Gerber or Victorinox for example. I tend to feel I got what I paid for with those brands. Leatherman has more often left me me feeling I've overpaid for what I got, although SOG still reigns supreme in that respect.
The price of the Free is a big leap of faith, and is not a chance I'm prepared to take. The design aspects leave me with too many concerns, never mind my lack of faith in their quality. I hope those eager to snaffle one up are pleased with their purchase, but I'll be giving it a wider berth.
Post by: MMR on April 12, 2019, 05:28:58 PM
Price is a tricky one to get right.
If this truly was the best multitool ever made, then it may well be worth every penny. Many folks would pay more than this just for a knife. I know I have a folder and a fixed blade, which each cost more than that. The price is one thing, but what you get for it is another.
I have also had a lot of disappointments with both Leatherman's designs and their production quality, over the years. I personally don't have the confidence in the brand to be sure that I'd be getting value for money. That has always been a hurdle for me with Leatherman, that I haven't had with Gerber or Victorinox for example. I tend to feel I got what I paid for with those brands. Leatherman has more often left me me feeling I've overpaid for what I got, although SOG still reigns supreme in that respect.
The price of the Free is a big leap of faith, and is not a chance I'm prepared to take. The design aspects leave me with too many concerns, never mind my lack of faith in their quality. I hope those eager to snaffle one up are pleased with their purchase, but I'll be giving it a wider berth.
:iagree:
Although I will say though that I was a bit shocked with my recent discovery of how my 111mm Victorinox soldier performed in dirt / dust compared to my LM Surge. Really shockingly suprised at how the SAK completely locked up from dust / dirt and the LM Surge didn't even break a sweat
Post by: Buzzbait on April 12, 2019, 06:24:20 PM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 12, 2019, 06:29:58 PM
:iagree:
Although I will say though that I was a bit shocked with my recent discovery of how my 111mm Victorinox soldier performed in dirt / dust compared to my LM Surge. Really shockingly suprised at how the SAK completely locked up from dust / dirt and the LM Surge didn't even break a sweat
That's suitability of design to task at hand though, not quality. A bit like comparing running shoes with wellies :D Did you try different oils with it?
Post by: MMR on April 12, 2019, 06:33:26 PM
Okay. I'm new to this Free series. Am I right that it has a solid 2D phillips screwdriver? So instead of a bit driver or a 3D screwdriver, I pay extra for the worst possible screwdriver option?
I don’t see anything that would suggest that your statement would be incorrect. So as far as I can see you would be correct sir!
But is has a grey sheath!!! ...and magnets!! ..don’t forget about the magnets!!
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Post by: Wspeed on April 12, 2019, 06:35:27 PM
Post by: MMR on April 12, 2019, 07:03:12 PM
The tools let it down for me >:(
You mean the tools that are pretty much exactly the same as a LM Sidekick / Wingman?
Both of which costs £60-£70?
But oh yeah they don’t come with a grey sheath and have magnets in them!
...Riiiggghhhttttt...
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Post by: Wspeed on April 12, 2019, 07:05:38 PM
Post by: MMR on April 12, 2019, 07:07:02 PM
Exactly and what a load of Smurf about the grey sheath :rant:
But a grey sheath means that other people will know you have the better MT.....the leatherman representative said it himself!!
(
)Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Wspeed on April 12, 2019, 07:08:38 PM
Post by: RF52 on April 12, 2019, 07:52:06 PM
This company that I have used in the past for engraved company gifts started stocking them tooI like the look of the tool, and I want at least one of them. But for that price(which probably will be even higher here) no way hose!
some nice closeups too
https://www.farrar-tanner.co.uk/the-great-outdoors-c71/multi-tools-pocket-knives-c94/leatherman-free-p4-nylon-sheath-p2360
https://www.farrar-tanner.co.uk/the-great-outdoors-c71/multi-tools-pocket-knives-c94/leatherman-free-p2-nylon-sheath-p2361
Still though £165.00 and £190.00 is a joke for a MT....and that's "British Pounds" too
So..
£165 = 191,17 Euro / 216,35 USD
£190 = 220,10 Euro / 249,13 USD
..That is an absolute joke!
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Post by: AlephZero on April 12, 2019, 08:28:31 PM
You guys are supposed to be grown up! :twak:
Act like it! :twak:
Post by: Wspeed on April 12, 2019, 08:31:02 PM
Post by: gadgetman7 on April 12, 2019, 08:36:17 PM
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Post by: gerleatherberman on April 12, 2019, 09:17:00 PM
Lots of neat engineering involved and it is something different in the MT realm. If the actual production tool is as snappy and fun to play with, as it looks in the ads, I'll be happy to shell out $150. A lot of MT.o members spend more than that on knives with just one blade. And being LM's first new model(not counting the LE PST, as it isn't new model), in many years, fully made in the US, is cool. :woohoo:
Side note: Not implying US made makes it better(seeing as I have over a hundred China built multis), but it is kind of cool to me on a personal level. :)
Post by: MMR on April 12, 2019, 09:19:58 PM
Oh for smurfs sake enough about the sheath!
You guys are supposed to be grown up! :twak:
Act like it! :twak:
The grey sheath of hopes and wonder!
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Post by: sawman on April 12, 2019, 09:42:08 PM
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on April 12, 2019, 09:57:44 PM
Oh for smurfs sake enough about the sheath!
You guys are supposed to be grown up! :twak:
Act like it! :twak:
It's because that smurfing salesd**che kept repeating in every single Youtube video about the Free P series that it was a sign of superiority while at the same time he kept lashing out at their best selling tool, the Wave (probably the tool that allows them the financial freedom to bring out some real iffy/niche tools or tools with serious QC issues, like they've been doing for these last couple of years).
If the Free turns out to be a dud or a sales disaster, they might just end up needing the good old Wave to pull them through again (so it's not very smart to talk trash about it ...)
Don't bite the hand that feeds, I'd say ...
Anyway, it's because of that guy and that ridiculous high price that I just spend the money I'd set aside for the Free P4 on 4 different knives on which I had my eye for some time ... And none of them is a Leatherman :P.
Post by: MMR on April 12, 2019, 10:14:57 PM
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Post by: LoopCutter on April 13, 2019, 01:12:52 AM
Now I suspect it is because the WAVE is no longer offered, just the WAVE +, which is about a year old.
Then with all the marketing hype which we here at MTo has scrutinized sharply. Isn’t even directed st the current MT owners, but the new users that do not know it yet. This IS the BEST MT EVER. It says so on the internet, it MUST BE TRUE.
Even the WINGMAN is gathering a fan base, LM now sells it with a new style nylon sheath at the same suggested price matching the SideKick.
The times are a changing!!!
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Post by: Happy Gilmore on April 13, 2019, 06:36:16 AM
Okay. I'm new to this Free series. Am I right that it has a solid 2D phillips screwdriver? So instead of a bit driver or a 3D screwdriver, I pay extra for the worst possible screwdriver option?
don't even get me started about the file....or the "awl" that doubles as a small screwdriver...how the smurf does that work?
Post by: MMR on April 13, 2019, 07:24:15 AM
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Post by: Buzzbait on April 14, 2019, 03:33:03 AM
or the "awl" that doubles as a small screwdriver.
I don’t understand that either, but I’m sure it has something to do with the silver sheath.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on April 14, 2019, 04:19:21 AM
I don’t understand that either, but I’m sure it has something to do with the silver sheath.
now it all makes sense... :cheers:
Post by: Syncop8r on April 14, 2019, 04:45:47 AM
Definitely has much better close up pictures :tu:+1
If I was rich I would buy one just for the clicky clacky snappy fiddle factor. :dd:
Post by: MMR on April 14, 2019, 07:11:07 AM
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Post by: gerleatherberman on April 14, 2019, 07:27:37 AM
Post by: Poncho65 on April 14, 2019, 07:54:48 AM
This thread is one of the first things that show up with a Google search for the LM Free series. Way to make potential members think the site is full of sheath-obsessed trolls. :whistle: :rofl:
:facepalm:
:rofl:
:nanadance: :nanadance:
Post by: MMR on April 14, 2019, 09:26:37 AM
Who’s there?
A leatherman Free.......WITH A GREY SHEATH!!!1!1!!!1!!!!!1!!!!one!1!!!!!11!!!!1exclamation mark1!!!1!!!!!1
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Post by: MMR on April 14, 2019, 09:28:22 AM
- to get to the Leatherman Free........WITH A GREY SHEATH!!!!1!!!!!1!!!!!1!1!!!!!one!!!1!!11exclamation mark1!!!1
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Post by: MMR on April 14, 2019, 09:32:27 AM
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Post by: gerleatherberman on April 14, 2019, 09:39:38 AM
Post by: MMR on April 14, 2019, 09:42:02 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190414/d56f1b75847c09b619ec49f45bcf2b2e.jpg)
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Post by: Syncop8r on April 14, 2019, 09:54:16 AM
Post by: MMR on April 14, 2019, 10:00:56 AM
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Mod edit: I don't think we need a page of spam like that do we.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 14, 2019, 10:13:08 AM
The grey sheath thing was last funny about 7 pages ago. :facepalm::iagree:
Sure would like to see this thread return to a state where it might be somewhat usable to potential buyers and/or collectors.
One thing is for sure; won't be posting about my P4 in this thread, when/if I can get one soon.
Post by: Syncop8r on April 14, 2019, 10:20:39 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 14, 2019, 12:11:50 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/Xxei1HDpBhMys/giphy.gif)Yep. Great summary. :rofl: :facepalm:
Post by: McStitchy on April 14, 2019, 01:21:41 PM
:iagree:
...
One thing is for sure; won't be posting about my P4 in this thread, when/if I can get one soon.
That would be a pity really.
I totally understand your reasons to get one... I'm just too long around MTO to not to :pok: :D
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 14, 2019, 01:39:31 PM
Post by: Poncho65 on April 14, 2019, 04:09:59 PM
Post by: Wspeed on April 14, 2019, 04:18:17 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 14, 2019, 05:43:03 PM
I am sure we can start a new thread when these start rolling out ;) :cheers:
:cheers:
I will look forward to it :popcorn:
:cheers:
Post by: MMR on April 14, 2019, 06:53:05 PM
I am sure we can start a new thread when these start rolling out ;) :cheers:
You heard the man :cheers:
....so....what color was the LM Free’s sheath again?
...was it grey?
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Post by: chrono on April 14, 2019, 07:48:43 PM
Post by: Wspeed on April 14, 2019, 07:50:25 PM
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on April 14, 2019, 08:46:40 PM
You heard the man :cheers:
....so....what color was the LM Free’s sheath again?
...was it grey?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You know, the guys are right, it's time to drop the sheath thing :pok:.
I admit I played the sheath card as well here, I'll explain my point one last time, it has nothing to do with the colour of the sheath, but with the meaning that was giving to it in the Youtube videos by the Leatherman sales person, for all I care, it could come with a pink sheath ... I just don't like what's behind it.
But my biggest problem is the retail price, which is just insane in my opinion. That's why I spend my Free P4 budget on other things. I did the same when the Signal came out, it was also too expensive at first (179 Euro :ahhh) in my opinion, so I used the Signal budget I'd set aside to buy myself a Surge, a "Light my Fire" Army firesteel and an emergency whistle and still had some money to spare. And a year later or so, when prices began to drop, I bought myself a Signal, and I liked it so much I actually bought a second one (you know, one user, one shelf queen ::)).
Guess I'll do the same with the Free P4, just wait it out a bit :D.
But I would like to hear the thoughts and experiences of people who get it right away, I'm still very curious to find out what it's like. And I do think this topic could use a push in the right direction again.
So, no more sheath comments from me :-[.
Post by: gregpost on April 15, 2019, 04:43:18 AM
Even the WINGMAN is gathering a fan base, LM now sells it with a new style nylon sheath at the same suggested price matching the SideKick.
I really hope they improve the Sidekick/Wingman platform. It's perfect for pocketable EDC. If they make it have locking tools and better cutters on the pliers and keep the same footprint and tool load-outs, that with some other nifty improvements it would be great.
I was hyped for the Free P2 because I like a blade and scissors as my main slots like on the Surge or Wingman, but it seems too long and also lacks spring action pliers, which some find polarizing but I like it for repetitive tasks.
ATTN: LEATHERMAN: please give us a better Sidekick and WIngman, thanks.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 15, 2019, 05:29:21 AM
As the tools are only held in by magnets, and you press, not pull, to deploy the tools, is there a risk of inadvertent deployment? Not just on the pliers tools, but on the knife based tools too, My grip on pocket tools shifts around based on the task I'm doing. It doesn't seem too far fetched to me, to envisage trying to do some task or other, and accidentally breaking the magnetic force holding the tools in, and all of a sudden, there's pokey bits and sharp bits sticking out of the handle :ahhh
Aside from the Switchplier and Recoil, I can't think of any other tool which has been push to deploy. :think: Chako will testify to the dangers of push to deploy tools, deploying inadvertently, when a Recoil in his pocket deployed and temporarily changed the way he walked. :dwts: There seems to be a potential risk, maybe small but a greater risk than with other tools, of tools breaking away from the magnets and coming free, either while the tool is in the hand or in the pocket. In pliers mode, the tools will be within the handles, so it might not be so much of an issue, although pliers can slam shut quite hard sometimes when they slip off what you're trying to grip. Maybe that could be enough to dislodge them. However, when using openers, drivers, awl, or whatever, or even when the tool is folded up and clipped to the pocket, the tools are just an accidental push from poking out.
Thoughts anyone?
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 15, 2019, 05:56:47 AM
It might be an issue if the implements were under spring tension to fly out when the tangs are pressed inwards. Fortunately that is not the case. We need some data on the force required to make the tools leave the influence of the retainer magnets. If the magnetic field is strong, then the implements would need quite some effort to accidentally deploy. IMHO of course.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 15, 2019, 06:19:05 AM
That's a bit of a reach to compare, the spring loaded Recoil slide-out pliers and SwitchPlier swing-out pliers with the non-spring loaded implements on the Free, is it not? :think:
It might be an issue if the implements were under spring tension to fly out when the tangs are pressed inwards. Fortunately that is not the case. We need some data on the force required to make the tools leave the influence of the retainer magnets. If the magnetic field is strong, then the implements would need quite some effort to accidentally deploy. IMHO of course.
I'm not suggesting the tools would deploy rapidly, merely no longer be safely stowed.
Looking at the vid clips, it would appear that no more force is needed to deploy the tools, than would be applied when using a multitool in all but the lightest tasks. Although as every "review" so far has just been show and tell with a liberal amount of sales patter, we havent seen any implements be used yet.
Post by: Blackbeard on April 15, 2019, 06:34:46 AM
I'm not suggesting the tools would deploy rapidly, merely no longer be safely stowed.
Looking at the vid clips, it would appear that no more force is needed to deploy the tools, than would be applied when using a multitool in all but the lightest tasks. Although as every "review" so far has just been show and tell with a liberal amount of sales patter, we havent seen any implements be used yet.
Hey, those custom badges are funny :rofl:
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 15, 2019, 06:35:15 AM
I do hope the tool operates like a well-oiled precision machine. Leatherman makes excellent tools, but they have always been missing a tool with the mechanical "snippy snappy" operation of SwissTools(fidget factor is what some youtubers say). And a lot of people interpret precision action in multitools as the main indicator quality(though I am not usually one of them, because of many other facets to the issue).
Post by: Sam Lim on April 15, 2019, 07:10:18 AM
I'm not suggesting the tools would deploy rapidly, merely no longer be safely stowed.
Looking at the vid clips, it would appear that no more force is needed to deploy the tools, than would be applied when using a multitool in all but the lightest tasks. Although as every "review" so far has just been show and tell with a liberal amount of sales patter, we havent seen any implements be used yet.
Me curious tool. Especially when at times we are constantly slapping the 2 handles together when working with the pliers or cutting stuffs. I wonder if the implements will pop out too. Since they are now looser, and held by magnets with out safety lever. I remember in one of the video one of the review guy accidently tapped the tool on the table and the blade fell out.. :facepalm: but then it's really too early to judge..
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 15, 2019, 08:49:57 AM
Hey, those custom badges are funny :rofl:
Thanks BB :D
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 15, 2019, 08:52:13 AM
Me curious tool. Especially when at times we are constantly slapping the 2 handles together when working with the pliers or cutting stuffs. I wonder if the implements will pop out too. Since they are now looser, and held by magnets with out safety lever. I remember in one of the video one of the review guy accidently tapped the tool on the table and the blade fell out.. :facepalm: but then it's really too early to judge..
That doesn't sound reassuring :-\ Can you remember which vid?
Post by: SteveC on April 15, 2019, 01:58:34 PM
That doesn't sound reassuring :-\ Can you remember which vid?
I think it was in this one
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,80374.msg1857845.html#msg1857845
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 15, 2019, 04:54:22 PM
I think it was in this one
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,80374.msg1857845.html#msg1857845
If it was, I didn't see it (although the eyes aren't behaving today). The tools do look to me like they could pop out when you don't want them too, but we may have to wait for proper user reviews to be certain. The knife blades may be less prone to it, as they don't seem to have the push to deploy aspect, but the awl and package opener do.
Post by: SteveC on April 15, 2019, 05:20:47 PM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 15, 2019, 05:43:07 PM
At the 4:40 min. mark the handle hits the table as he's flipping it open and tools deploy.
Oh, well spotted! :tu: Yes, they popped out too easily in my view. That would certainly have been an issue for me back when I was using tools harder than I do today.
I can see the package opener being renamed the palm opener >:D
Post by: Buzzbait on April 15, 2019, 06:12:48 PM
I can see the package opener being renamed the palm opener >:D
If it accidentally deploys in your pocket, it could definitely be a "package" opener. Eek!!!! :o :o :o
Post by: sawman on April 15, 2019, 08:31:34 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 15, 2019, 08:39:08 PM
All joking aside , at least they're doing something after being somewhat dormant the last several years. That said, I still want a Surge :facepalm:
This. :iagree:
Post by: Syncop8r on April 15, 2019, 09:31:29 PM
All joking aside , at least they're doing something after being somewhat dormant the last several years. That said, I stillFTFY :whistle:wantneed a Surge :facepalm:
Post by: genevabuck on April 15, 2019, 10:35:26 PM
bladehq
Less than 2️⃣ days left! The Leatherman FREE series will drop Wednesday April 17 at 10 AM MT!
Post by: genevabuck on April 16, 2019, 12:06:29 AM
Post by: SteveC on April 16, 2019, 01:54:09 AM
I will be buying this tool when it comes out. Hopefully we can get a thread without Leatherman haters where we can have serious discussion without sheath obsession.
Sheath silliness aside where do you see " Leatherman Haters" in this thread ?
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 16, 2019, 02:21:18 AM
If it accidentally deploys in your pocket, it could definitely be a "package" opener. Eek!!!! :o :o :o
:ahhh :ahhh
Post by: Happy Gilmore on April 16, 2019, 03:26:53 AM
The knife/Scissor/Serrated blade/ Saw all look solid... The flat driver looks really good..and the rest of the tools look very very meh. I'll stick to the Wave/Blast/Fuse/charge/kick/Rebar/Signal toolset for crafting the perfect edc for my uses.
The biggest loss imo is the bit exchanger...this tool would have loved it.
Cheers,
H.G.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 16, 2019, 04:15:37 AM
All kiding aside, I think this is going to be a tool that has great convenience, especially the P2. But If I am carrying something the weight of the P4 it better have really solid tools in it.
The knife/Scissor/Serrated blade/ Saw all look solid... The flat driver looks really good..and the rest of the tools look very very meh. I'll stick to the Wave/Blast/Fuse/charge/kick/Rebar/Signal toolset for crafting the perfect edc for my uses.
The biggest loss imo is the bit exchanger...this tool would have loved it.
Cheers,
H.G.
The scissor spring concerns me. It looks too close to the frequently failing Style PS/Squirt P4 scissor spring. Otherwise, I'd agree with your views on the other cutting tools. Until one of these tools gets into the hands of a proper reviewer, it's difficult to make much of an appraisal of the rest.
I do stick by my concerns about them not staying securely stowed though. They went to the additional expense of adding a specific safety mechanism to stop the blades deploying in pliers mode on the Wave/Charge/Surge, so it is a concern that the company has recognised and addressed in the past (which will go against them in court, if serious injuries do occur). There's no such safety feature on this line though, even though the tools swing more freely (hence the name) once that little bit of magnetic force is overcome.
I would like to see more of the other multi function implements. The driver awl combo sounds odd, but while not ideal, I confess I have used a small driver as an awl on other tools if there hasn't been one on board.
:oops:
So that might not be a total disaster.
The package opening pry tool deserves a closer look at too, to see if those features conflict each other i.e. will prying damage/blunt the opener... I forget what else was meant to be on there. As I've just mentioned in the Sideclip Club thread, I'm not enthralled by the tapering small driver, so it won't get at recessed screws, but it's a combo tool with the file, so I can understand them trying to maximise surface area for that.
Post by: McStitchy on April 16, 2019, 08:31:52 AM
...
I do stick by my concerns about them not staying securely stowed though. They went to the additional expense of adding a specific safety mechanism to stop the blades deploying in pliers mode on the Wave/Charge/Surge, so it is a concern that the company has recognised and addressed in the past (which will go against them in court, if serious injuries do occur). There's no such safety feature on this line though, even though the tools swing more freely (hence the name) once that little bit of magnetic force is overcome.
...
Good point, I've seen a Swisstool review once were the tools opened when cutting wire. The moment when the cutters "snap" the wire. Don't know the details but that kinda situation need testing :D
Post by: McStitchy on April 16, 2019, 08:34:51 AM
I will be buying this tool when it comes out. Hopefully we can get a thread without Leatherman haters where we can have serious discussion without sheath obsession.
I've seen no LM haters here. I think all that posted here so have at least one but most probably more LM tools :hatsoff:
Btw, the grey sheath looks neat :D
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 16, 2019, 02:54:41 PM
I will be buying this tool when it comes out. Hopefully we can get a thread without Leatherman haters where we can have serious discussion without sheath obsession.We'll start an owner's club for sure. :cheers:
I've decided on buying a P4 first, because the P2 seems to be the more popular choice at this point.
I think a lot of members are turned off by the aggressive promotion of the Free series and I understand the concerns, but a lot of the conjecture stated in this thread can only be confirmed with acquisition of a Free. :ahhh
Post by: rescue4500 on April 16, 2019, 08:51:09 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 16, 2019, 09:02:03 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on April 16, 2019, 09:39:15 PM
I have money set aside for a P4. I just hope I get in there before they're sold out. Really don't want to wait for the next shipment. :ahhh
Lets be clear here..they will 100% sell out...and fast... Leathermans are loved by millions, and this is the easy open tool that many have dreams about... even if some of the tools are under par.
For my purposes, I want as few Compromise tools as possible. In other words I want each tool to be as close to the best case as possible. Unfortunately the P series is focused on a whole different idea.
What still makes me want to eventually have one regardless is the "Made in America" part of it... that is a huge deal to me that the tool parts and everything is back in the U.S.
Cheers,
H.G.
Post by: Kev D on April 16, 2019, 10:19:39 PM
Post by: sawman on April 16, 2019, 10:39:53 PM
Lets be clear here..they will 100% sell out...and fast... Leathermans are loved by millions, and this is the easy open tool that many have dreams about... even if some of the tools are under par.
For my purposes, I want as few Compromise tools as possible. In other words I want each tool to be as close to the best case as possible. Unfortunately the P series is focused on a whole different idea.
What still makes me want to eventually have one regardless is the "Made in America" part of it... that is a huge deal to me that the tool parts and everything is back in the U.S.
Cheers,
H.G.
I won't be partaking of this batch but want to mention that while I have and continue to purchase foreign made products - At This Price - I should sure hope it is sourced and produced by competent workers who are being fairly compensated for their efforts.
I hope the new line of tools is a success!
Leatherman for some of us has become the company we love to hate- but I suspect that is only because the bar was set so high for such a long time.
My hats off for these along with some of their current line of tried and tested multi tools. Now it's :popcorn: time to sit back and hope nobody gets seriously injured playing with their new butterfly opening magnetic tool :salute:
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 16, 2019, 10:44:28 PM
Lets be clear here..they will 100% sell out...and fast... Leathermans are loved by millions, and this is the easy open tool that many have dreams about... even if some of the tools are under par.
For my purposes, I want as few Compromise tools as possible. In other words I want each tool to be as close to the best case as possible. Unfortunately the P series is focused on a whole different idea.
What still makes me want to eventually have one regardless is the "Made in America" part of it... that is a huge deal to me that the tool parts and everything is back in the U.S.
Cheers,
H.G.
Very true! :iagree: & :cheers:
Post by: genevabuck on April 16, 2019, 11:59:01 PM
Post by: gilson65 on April 17, 2019, 12:05:46 AM
Post by: genevabuck on April 17, 2019, 12:21:14 AM
Just ordered the p2 hopefully gets delivered by next week now for the waiting game :popcorn:
Who did you go through?
Post by: cody6268 on April 17, 2019, 12:52:02 AM
Post by: powernoodle on April 17, 2019, 12:53:03 AM
Post by: gilson65 on April 17, 2019, 12:57:07 AM
Who did you go through?
Leatherman Australia
Post by: genevabuck on April 17, 2019, 01:02:32 AM
I don't blame LM for "aggressive promotion" of the Free line. Gerber's ads for the Center-Drive were everywhere (even in magazines, where in recent history, I had never seen an ad for a Leatherman or Victorinox product), and in many cases, rigged. They compared it to the Wave (when a better comparison would be the Surge) and used the MUT instead of the Wave to make a big deal over the CD's supposedly longer blade (which is dwarfed by the Surge). And I sure hope Leatherman uses Gerber products to do a similar ad campaign.
Weren’t they the ones cutting the small bit driver off of the Leatherman?
Post by: genevabuck on April 17, 2019, 01:03:11 AM
Leatherman Australia
Nice
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 17, 2019, 01:31:18 AM
Post by: aussieman on April 17, 2019, 01:40:04 AM
Leatherman Australia
P2: $120 USD
$120 USD = $168 Australian.
Leatherman Australia online store: $295 AUD :ahhh
Only 1.75x markup.
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on April 17, 2019, 01:42:06 AM
Just got my email from the distributor. The P4 will be $119.95 tomorrow. When a Crunch is going for $109 on the LM website I don’t see this as overboard.
Would you consider $250 overboard?
That's what we can pre-order them for.
Over here, every Leatherman comes at a high price :pok:.
So if the Free P4 stays under the current price of a Leatherman Wave + over here (= 149,95 Euro) I will buy it, if it sells under 100 Euro, I'll (probably) buy two ;).
Like I said, anything under 150€ ($170) would've been fine for me. And for $120 (106€) I would've probably bought two...
I mean, I'm used to paying anything between 100€ and 200€ (or $120 and $226) on a Leatherman, but anything above 200€ does make me think twice about my need to buy it...
But like I said, same thing happened with the Signal, they went for 180€ ($203) at launch, and a year later they dropped to 150€ ($170) and I own two of them now :D.
Lots of numbers in this post... :facepalm:
I'm just trying to explain that I would like to get myself a P4, but even my
And I don't mind "aggressive promotion", I just didn't like the Wave bashing every time, since I happen to really like my Waves/Charges :-[.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 17, 2019, 01:46:06 AM
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on April 17, 2019, 01:50:14 AM
Leatherman can be sure that I will be posting a head-to-head with a Wave. For whatever my little opinion matters. It doesn't, but I'll feel better whether the P4 IS better or if the Wave is better(then gloating ensues.
Now that's something I would really like to see.
:like:
:popcorn:
Post by: SirVicaLot on April 17, 2019, 02:27:20 AM
From the first look i am not really into the P2 and P4. A half serrated blade, where the serrations are less than 50% of the blade length (at least that's what it looks like on photos) does not make any sense to me. I am also not a big fan of the flat Phillips driver. The file - unless dedicated to finger nails - is useless with that length. The rest of the tools seem somewhat ok.
The T2 and T4 on the other hand look interesting. Still the same issue with Phillips and file, but for a SAK sized tool i do not necessarily expect a dedicated Phillips bit and more than a nail file. I have not found any photos for comparison but i hope they are the size of an Explorer or Climber. If that is the case i would get one.
Not too interested in the K series as i like MT's with scissors. Just use them too often.
Looking forward to reading some first hand experiences on MTO though :tu: Maybe my first look at this new line does not do them justice :cheers:
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 17, 2019, 03:53:11 AM
Now that's something I would really like to see.Fingers crossed I get one in the morning. :ahhh
:like:
:popcorn:
Would like to get a P4 and P2 in the morning and will make the first P4 a user, then later on get a second P4 for the collection. At least that is the plan. :ahhh
I don't see the P4 beating the Wave in practicality, BUT the P4 could win overall with the fidget factor. I do enjoy playing with MTs and knives. :rofl:
Post by: Poncho65 on April 17, 2019, 04:12:59 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on April 17, 2019, 04:19:00 AM
Can't wait to see who gets one of these first :popcorn: Won't be me that's for sure :D but if the reviews are good and I can get one later for a fair price, then I am game :cheers:
Eventually.. but not before a signal or Crunch for me.
Post by: Antti Lammi on April 17, 2019, 05:13:54 AM
Only Tools Matters
Post by: gilson65 on April 17, 2019, 05:15:23 AM
P2: $120 USD
$120 USD = $168 Australian.
Leatherman Australia online store: $295 AUD :ahhh
Only 1.75x markup.
Yeah I definitely was shocked at the price from Leatherman Australia but unfortunately I couldn’t wait
Post by: aussieman on April 17, 2019, 06:40:55 AM
Yeah I definitely was shocked at the price from Leatherman Australia but unfortunately I couldn’t wait
I hear ya.
Look on the bright side, you can rent it out to locals like me at $20 per half hour viewing session. :cheers:
When you get it I'm dying to know the width... I doubt anyone will have display stock for a while.
Post by: glkllnpg on April 17, 2019, 11:05:20 AM
Free P4 - $139.95
Free P2 - $119.95
Free T4 - $59.95
Free T2 - $39.95
Free K4 & K4X - $89.95
Free K2 & K2X - $79.95
Ordered the P4.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 17, 2019, 11:53:13 AM
Now the arduous task of waiting and living on Ramen noodles for a couple of weeks. :rofl:
Post by: Wspeed on April 17, 2019, 12:44:34 PM
Post by: McStitchy on April 17, 2019, 12:51:51 PM
Can’t wait to see what everyone thinks of the new LMs :popcorn:
:iagree: :popcorn:
Post by: Poncho65 on April 17, 2019, 05:14:32 PM
:iagree: :popcorn:
:iagree: as well :D
Post by: balvenie on April 17, 2019, 05:22:08 PM
:iagree: as well :D:iagree: indeed :popcorn:
Post by: Antti Lammi on April 17, 2019, 05:24:16 PM
Leatherman.com List Prices:
Free P4 - $139.95
Free P2 - $119.95
Free T4 - $59.95
Free T2 - $39.95
Free K4 & K4X - $89.95
Free K2 & K2X - $79.95
Ordered the P4.
I wish i could see those prices on here
Only Tools Matters
Post by: Aloha on April 17, 2019, 05:25:46 PM
Post by: MMR on April 17, 2019, 06:01:41 PM
https://youtu.be/L4_lpkYSzB4
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: sawman on April 17, 2019, 06:02:46 PM
Just posted on LMs YouTube channel
https://youtu.be/L4_lpkYSzB4
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
IMPRESSIVE
Post by: Wspeed on April 17, 2019, 06:05:28 PM
Post by: cody6268 on April 17, 2019, 06:17:16 PM
(https://www.leatherman.com/dw/image/v2/AAMV_PRD/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-master/default/dw1caf556f/large/590-free-k4-gray-open.png?sw=600&sh=600&sm=fit)
Post by: sawman on April 17, 2019, 06:29:27 PM
Wasn't going to ever buy one, but I am really liking the K4. Just don't see how the awl can be a small screwdriver as well. Seems like it would mess it up, but then again, I have used a PSTII tiny screwdriver as an awl when needed. But yikes, $90! I still have a $15 gift card, so will probably just end up using that to get a Crater C33T. Even without the gift card, I can easily afford it; and I can also use a Gerber or LM adapter on the square Phillips as I would a ST300.
(https://www.leatherman.com/dw/image/v2/AAMV_PRD/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-master/default/dw1caf556f/large/590-free-k4-gray-open.png?sw=600&sh=600&sm=fit)
As far as the awl and screwdriver being synonymous, I suppose it is perfectly possible if the steel is treated to just the necessary hardness. I would be ticked if it chipped, bent or snapped !
Post by: Happy Gilmore on April 17, 2019, 08:50:49 PM
Wasn't going to ever buy one, but I am really liking the K4. Just don't see how the awl can be a small screwdriver as well. Seems like it would mess it up, but then again, I have used a PSTII tiny screwdriver as an awl when needed. But yikes, $90! I still have a $15 gift card, so will probably just end up using that to get a Crater C33T. Even without the gift card, I can easily afford it; and I can also use a Gerber or LM adapter on the square Phillips as I would a ST300.
(https://www.leatherman.com/dw/image/v2/AAMV_PRD/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-master/default/dw1caf556f/large/590-free-k4-gray-open.png?sw=600&sh=600&sm=fit)
This one was really cool but the low quality steel really urks me...would it have been so hard to use 154CM on the main blade? The size of the handle and tool selection it contains does seem very complete however, maybe worth a look. I will never ever carry a dedicated folder, but I'd consider carrying this. For me if I want a dedicated blade I'll find the perfect fixed blade EDC.
FYI closest thing I found to an affordable and functional fixed blade of reasonable size: Benchmade 200 PUUKKO, 3.75" CPM-3V steel for under $150. The next best blade is probably a Morakniv Robust.
(https://i-h2.pinimg.com/564x/db/6b/8a/db6b8a3cd16d06a8e22a49a0636f45a9.jpg)
I would rather use a half leatherman at this point and have access to either an S30V blade or 154CM with the same toolset.
Cheers,
H.G.
Post by: ThePeacent on April 17, 2019, 09:05:07 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8c3WLIB9X8&t=0s
Post by: Happy Gilmore on April 17, 2019, 09:23:45 PM
another video posted today, addressing the magnet causing problems issue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8c3WLIB9X8&t=0s
Not going to lie...the marketing of this tool is swaying me...I was going to hold off...
MUST.....RESIST....Must...
I will say, that nearly all the leatherman tools can be opened one handed, its closing them that takes two hands.
:drink: :ahhh :ahhh :whistle: :whistle:
Post by: Jaypeebee on April 17, 2019, 09:46:27 PM
Post by: Wessaen on April 18, 2019, 02:25:57 AM
Finally found the time to read a little bit in this thread, and look up the Free line-up.
The T2 and T4 on the other hand look interesting. Still the same issue with Phillips and file, but for a SAK sized tool i do not necessarily expect a dedicated Phillips bit and more than a nail file. I have not found any photos for comparison but i hope they are the size of an Explorer or Climber. If that is the case i would get one.
Not too interested in the K series as i like MT's with scissors. Just use them too often.
Looking forward to reading some first hand experiences on MTO though :tu: Maybe my first look at this new line does not do them justice :cheers:
The more I read about the Free series the more I am only interested in the T line as well.
And even then my interest is waning. $40/$60 buys a lot of used SAKs on evilbay that I know will perform to a certain expectation. Or I can fix them myself with past experience.
Not sure how much I want to pull apart a new LM tool to try and "fix" whatever issues I have with it.
-Wes.
Post by: ironraven on April 18, 2019, 02:39:46 AM
No, not :woohoo: Certainly not that.
More... nah, the puke emoji I have a work, while it sums up my reaction is a little too graphic for this forum.
OK, totally one handed, but I'm seeing lots and lots of Rev/Wingman/Sidekick parts in new packaging with general form factors that look like they are going to take a lot of FOD. No real files. No bit drivers. But there are magnets, which to me isn't a positive. And then I saw the prices. My gods! Tim, please come back and save us from this thing that bares your name. In fairness, I haven't been hands on with one yet, so I might change my mind.
And I might dye myself purple, to.
Post by: gilson65 on April 18, 2019, 03:03:03 AM
Just looked at LM Australia. Sure hope you got it for less than the price I saw. :ahhh
Yes I did couldn’t help myself
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 18, 2019, 04:29:48 AM
Yes I did couldn’t help myself
:like:
No worries. I have been known to drop serious fliff on MTs too. :cheers:
Leatherman emailed me that the P2 has shipped. :woohoo:
Hopefully they'll ship the P4 tomorrow. :ahhh
I'm excited. Even of the tool isn't great, it'll make a nice collection piece to rest alongside the rest of the LM crew(40 or so and growing..haha). :multi:
Post by: Syncop8r on April 18, 2019, 09:41:06 AM
Quote
****** ******** was the very 1st person in NZ to order a Leatherman FREE P4!
When he received it, did it live up to the hype? Read his initial thoughts below.
"It doesn’t disappoint after a quick play! It feels amazing in the hand and looks unreal!
"I can’t believe how light it is. Tool deployment is silky smooth. Love the click when each tool locks.
"I was a bit skeptical about how easy it would be to disengage the locks one handed when you close a tool, but it feels intuitive. I can’t wait to actually put it to work! 😍"
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 18, 2019, 03:16:13 PM
Only down side now, for me, is the estimated arrival time for me is next week on Wednesday. :ahhh
Post by: Wspeed on April 18, 2019, 03:53:02 PM
can’t wait to see what you guys think of them when you get them :popcorn:
Post by: gregpost on April 18, 2019, 06:16:29 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 18, 2019, 06:25:03 PM
I wonder if the Leatherman flagship store has already started selling these.I'd be surprised if they weren't. :ahhh
Post by: powernoodle on April 18, 2019, 08:16:59 PM
Rev/Wingman/Sidekick parts in new packaging . . . And then I saw the prices.
That pretty much sums it up for me too. It makes the Rev look pretty good at $39 shipped. Maybe that's the whole point. Sneaky, sneaky Timmy.
Post by: sawman on April 18, 2019, 08:21:10 PM
That pretty much sums it up for me too. It makes the Rev look pretty good at $39 shipped. Maybe that's the whole point. Sneaky, sneaky Timmy.
I wholeheartedly must disagree :
The Free series offers magnets.... :whistle:
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 18, 2019, 08:37:11 PM
Post by: gregpost on April 18, 2019, 10:05:02 PM
https://toolguyd.com/review-leatherman-free-multi-tool-p2-is-amazing/
Post by: powernoodle on April 18, 2019, 10:52:42 PM
The assertion that the Free P series is similar to the Rev, because of similar implement styles, is ridiculous. They aren't even close mechanically.
Its not ridiculous at all. The blade, 2D phillips, flat driver, teeny weeny file and can opener look identical to the Sidekick, etc. They may very well come out of the same parts bins.
While I have P4 fever as much as anyone, my opinion is constrained by reality. A $139 MT should not have a 2D phillips, a 3 cm ruler and a teeny, toy-sized file.
I didn't design it. I'm just the messenger. :salute:
Post by: Syncop8r on April 18, 2019, 10:56:00 PM
Sounds like a good outlook! Thanks for posting that, Syncop8r! :)To be fair that was on LM's NZ FB page.
The assertion that the Free P series is similar to the Rev, because of similar implement styles, is ridiculous. They aren't even close mechanically.The architecture is different, but I still can't get past seeing WIngman/Sidekick/Rev tools in it.
Post by: Syncop8r on April 18, 2019, 10:57:06 PM
A $139 MT should not have a 2D phillips, a 3 cm ruler and a teeny, toy-sized file.:iagree:
Post by: genevabuck on April 18, 2019, 11:38:23 PM
To be fair that was on LM's NZ FB page.
The architecture is different, but I still can't get past seeing WIngman/Sidekick/Rev tools in it.
Can you point to examples of those tools failing? I actually think that they are better than some of the ones on more expensive Leatherman tools.
Post by: Syncop8r on April 19, 2019, 12:22:41 AM
Post by: genevabuck on April 19, 2019, 12:34:40 AM
No admittedly I can't, I haven't used those tools. A lot of it is my perception based on looks and size. I dislike the tapered shape.
I like them. They remind me of the OG Leatherman implements before they got cheap. Think about this. If LM went cheap on say Wingman tools, they would have taken a major hit on warranty costs. They in my opinion are more solid than the numerous Wave/Charge/Surge/Super Tool implements that I have sent in for warranty. Meanwhile, there still isn’t a thread here about Wingman/Sidekick tools breaking or failing.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 19, 2019, 01:07:43 AM
I like them. They remind me of the OG Leatherman implements before they got cheap. Think about this. If LM went cheap on say Wingman tools, they would have taken a major hit on warranty costs. They in my opinion are more solid than the numerous Wave/Charge/Surge/Super Tool implements that I have sent in for warranty. Meanwhile, there still isn’t a thread here about Wingman/Sidekick tools breaking or failing.
Whichever one I had (the one with the scissors that I stole for a wave mod), was unpleasant ergonomically for me, and I'd rather the drivers lock than the blade, but the individual tools did seem robust. The diminutive file was well cut, and the Phillips, though not full profile, did seem well made too. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the tapered shanks of the drivers can cause access issues though, and making plier heads hollow to house a return spring, does compromise them and lead to excessive wear quicker. All told, while there's much I dislike about the design, there were no glaring shortfalls in manufacturing quality on mine.
As to not seeing any pics of failures, I don't know of anyone here who puts one to hard use regularly. I'd guess that most people here who own one, use something else most of the time. I only know of Taxi Dad carrying one regularly, but I don't think he works his tools as hard as other folks here do. Again, the plier pivot was the only obvious weak spot for hard use that I saw. The rest did seem to be fairly durable.
Post by: SteveC on April 19, 2019, 01:12:59 AM
I like them. They remind me of the OG Leatherman implements before they got cheap. Think about this. If LM went cheap on say Wingman tools, they would have taken a major hit on warranty costs. They in my opinion are more solid than the numerous Wave/Charge/Surge/Super Tool implements that I have sent in for warranty. Meanwhile, there still isn’t a thread here about Wingman/Sidekick tools breaking or failing.
The tools on my Sidekick other than the knife and saw are fairly useless IMO. The phillips is okay but does cam out more easily than any 3D phillips on my other LM's. The large flat is too thick and wide for anything other than use as a prybar. The file/ medium flat is a joke. The small SE knife is okay I guess.
It sits on my desk and gets light use. I imagine that most SK and WM get lighter use than most other LM models.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 19, 2019, 01:40:46 AM
I try not to be one to tell how a car drives before actually driving one.
If LM had released something near-similar to a model they already make(which is what is sounds like some presumptive detractors wanted), I would have been pissed, because they would have something to compete with tools they ALREADY make. They went for something fun to use and completely different, and that takes brass. It might suck, but I seriously doubt it will. It will probably fall into theMT catagory "super fun to play with and moderately useful."
Leatherman did smurf up by advertising it as better than tools they currently make/sell. A lot of the initial hatred of the Free series was born in the grey sheath on the tatted dude's belt.
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on April 19, 2019, 10:02:00 AM
Well. All-in-all, the fact is, those of us who will have the P2/P4 will be enjoying them/not enjoying them, while those who don't have them will be wondering.
I try not to be one to tell how a car drives before actually driving one.
If LM had released something near-similar to a model they already make(which is what is sounds like some presumptive detractors wanted), I would have been pissed, because they would have something to compete with tools they ALREADY make. They went for something fun to use and completely different, and that takes brass. It might suck, but I seriously doubt it will. It will probably fall into theMT catagory "super fun to play with and moderately useful."
Leatherman did smurf up by advertising it as better than tools they currently make/sell. A lot of the initial hatred of the Free series was born in the grey sheath on the tatted dude's belt.
:iagree:
I can only speak for myself, but at the moment the curiosity outweighs the negative feelings from the sales talk again ::).
Post by: balvenie on April 19, 2019, 11:17:59 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 19, 2019, 02:44:06 PM
:cheers:
:iagree:
I can only speak for myself, but at the moment the curiosity outweighs the negative feelings from the sales talk again ::).
True true. We are going to need to schedule a Free challenge. Free tp participate in of course. :)
https://youtu.be/TiYXGKaEJ0AOh....my....smurf...
That thing looks to be a smooth operator. :o
Thanks for posting that. :drool:
Post by: Monrogue on April 19, 2019, 03:52:35 PM
Post by: Wspeed on April 19, 2019, 04:00:46 PM
£189.99 for the P4
I will wait for prices to go down before I will get one :facepalm:
Post by: Poncho65 on April 19, 2019, 04:50:22 PM
Well curiosity has gotten the better of me and I’ve got a P2 on the way. It’s been quite a while since I got a new multi tool, so I’m excited. It looks interesting, and I fall into the “fun to play with, but moderately useful” target anyway :D
Great to see you Mons :waving: Let us know how it goes with it :salute:
Can't wait to hear all the thoughts about these, guys :tu: :popcorn:
Post by: Wspeed on April 19, 2019, 04:58:34 PM
Post by: Monrogue on April 19, 2019, 05:02:08 PM
Great to see you Mons :waving: Let us know how it goes with it :salute:Yo Ponch! :D
Can't wait to hear all the thoughts about these, guys :tu: :popcorn:
Post by: Poncho65 on April 19, 2019, 05:05:37 PM
Yo Ponch! :D
So where you been hiding at :pok: :D
Post by: Monrogue on April 19, 2019, 05:11:05 PM
So where you been hiding at :pok: :D
I have to keep a low profile with Mags always talking about taking over the realm ;)
Post by: Sam Lim on April 19, 2019, 05:25:02 PM
:cheers:
True true. We are going to need to schedule a Free challenge. Free tp participate in of course. :)
Oh....my....smurf...
That thing looks to be a smooth operator. :o
Thanks for posting that. :drool:
In his video on the P2, there's a bandaid on his finger.. :D wonder where he got that from.
First off, notice there were 4 shorter implements on one side of the handle, speaks a bit on the thickest of the tools.. :think: and the blades now having to fight the lock's spring when opening, looks to be a little more challenging for oho, like what tool guy mentioned in his review.. Even when it seems obscenely high priced, I had ordered a p2. :facepalm: It's rather painful yet exciting for me to go full retail at $119 for a MT.. :ahhh :ahhh
Post by: balvenie on April 19, 2019, 05:27:31 PM
Post by: McStitchy on April 19, 2019, 05:40:02 PM
Great to see you Mons :waving: Let us know how it goes with it :salute:
Can't wait to hear all the thoughts about these, guys :tu: :popcorn:
What he said :salute:
Post by: McStitchy on April 19, 2019, 05:42:27 PM
Well curiosity has gotten the better of me and I’ve got a P2 on the way. It’s been quite a while since I got a new multi tool, so I’m excited. It looks interesting, and I fall into the “fun to play with, but moderately useful” target anyway :D
Note to myself...
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/3orif55tAvk3W2F0vC/giphy.gif)
Post by: Monrogue on April 19, 2019, 06:50:29 PM
Note to myself...:rofl:
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/3orif55tAvk3W2F0vC/giphy.gif)
Post by: Poncho65 on April 19, 2019, 07:40:49 PM
I have to keep a low profile with Mags always talking about taking over the realm ;)
He is just bluffing :salute: he knows you are a just and no less king :D So stick around more :pok: :D
Post by: Monrogue on April 19, 2019, 07:45:22 PM
He is just bluffing :salute: he knows you are a just and no less king :D So stick around more :pok: :DHa, he better be bluffing. I’ll try to stick around though. Getting a new MT will spark some interest, lol
Post by: SteveC on April 19, 2019, 07:46:12 PM
Post by: Monrogue on April 19, 2019, 08:02:06 PM
Good to see you Mons ! :cheers: :tu:
Hey Steve!
Post by: SteveC on April 19, 2019, 08:37:23 PM
Hey Steve!
Don't worry about mags, he's all talk and no action :D
Post by: Monrogue on April 19, 2019, 08:58:05 PM
Don't worry about mags, he's all talk and no action :D
Yeah :rofl:
Post by: McStitchy on April 19, 2019, 09:00:27 PM
Don't worry about mags, he's all talk and no action :D
... like our dog? :D
Post by: MadPlumbarian on April 19, 2019, 11:12:50 PM
JR
Post by: Monrogue on April 19, 2019, 11:47:29 PM
Hey stranger,
JR
Hey :pok:
Post by: aussieman on April 20, 2019, 01:17:33 PM
In Russian, but hey.
https://youtu.be/Tn2OQ7mXOQA
Post by: powernoodle on April 20, 2019, 02:13:35 PM
We wait so long - years and years - for anything new from Leatherman, and when it gets released, it only reveals the sad the reality sets in that maybe the industry has already maxed out in innovation. In other words, just about anything new from Leatherman - or anyone else - will be a reiteration of other MTs already on the market.
I have not had my hands on the Free series yet. But as for the magnets, I don't think that style of deployment looks that awesome. It doesn't look ergonomic to me trying to roll the clumpy tools out with your thumb, but who knows. Is it really better than a traditional setup?
And then there are the teeny file, the lack of a 3D phillips, and inflated price. I think mostly its the price. At $79, I would think this is a spendy MT, but I would get one. But $139? Yowzer! That's just not nice.
In my view there are a number of "better" MTs out there on the market, just in terms of doing the things that MTs do. I'm not betting on the P4 to be a big time player in the MT market at the current price. Time will tell.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 20, 2019, 02:23:55 PM
Post by: Wspeed on April 20, 2019, 02:37:11 PM
It might not be the perfect tool for everyone
But at least they are trying :salute:
Post by: Sea Monster on April 20, 2019, 02:44:52 PM
my boss still uses a PST he bought in nineteen-dickety-two, my staff use wingmans because they're at about the right price point for a young fella buying a multi.
I'm not really sure who LM is trying to impress with this? Are wave sales dropping (other than to their own cheaper products) ? are they just sick of hearing about all the Spirit love?
Do they just need to release something every now and again because no one wanted to run an ad campaign for the Wave saying "Just like Kids, you stop once you have a good one"
does this use simpler/less manufacturing techniques and costs them less than the Wave to make, so if they phase out the older tool to be replaced by this they'll save some dollars?
I rather think the "chassis" is quite cool, I'm only put out by the deployable tools - on the P4 I'd rather swap the "package opener" and phillips driver for a bit holder.
No idea what you could swap the "rule" for, but it seems almost anything else would be better. I'd take a novelty party hat and a cringe-worthy joke on a piece of paper.
Of course, businesswise it makes sense - they can outfit a whole range of tools/knives with their tools, and the P4 simply has the whole lot.
Hopefully the advertised price is just a marketing thing so that dealers can run sales, because when you can get pretty much anything else from the lineup for less (or a Charge for the same price) it's a hard sell.
My opinion is worth exactly nothing to LM though, as I have no intention of replacing my current carry until it breaks or I lose it.
Post by: gustophersmob on April 20, 2019, 04:42:54 PM
*snip*
Do they just need to release something every now and again because no one wanted to run an ad campaign for the Wave saying "Just like Kids, you stop once you have a good one"
:rofl:
Post by: gregpost on April 20, 2019, 04:43:16 PM
Post by: ddogu on April 20, 2019, 04:56:37 PM
Best close up video I’ve seen yet of the new P2/P4.
In Russian, but hey.
https://youtu.be/Tn2OQ7mXOQA
Good video, thanks for sharing. :cheers:
Tho, the locking mechanism seems to be more complex compared to the traditional models. I wonder how reliable and robust they're gonna turn out to be...
Post by: Poncho65 on April 20, 2019, 05:02:35 PM
I think it’s just great that LM is trying something different
It might not be the perfect tool for everyone
But at least they are trying :salute:
:iagree: I am glad they tried something different :like: I have tried not to be a naysayer and will leave judgement to myself and to MTO members :cheers: If it is a fail then we will scatter trying to get one or 2 for the collection :D if it is a win then it is great for everyone :tu: I really hope it is a win becasue they look very cool 8)
Getting excited to see one of these out in the wild and hopefully in person :ahhh maybe a trip to a store that carries LM for me is due :think: :D
Post by: Wspeed on April 20, 2019, 05:06:05 PM
Will be interesting to see what other MTs they will make :tu:
Post by: Sam Lim on April 20, 2019, 05:08:14 PM
Good video, thanks for sharing. :cheers:
Tho, the locking mechanism seems to be more complex compared to the traditional models. I wonder how reliable and robust they're gonna turn out to be...
That's a really detailed video. Thanks! Seems incompatible with any of the existing parts that LM uses... Definitely going to miss the diamond file.. :(
Post by: chrono on April 20, 2019, 06:42:43 PM
P4 for $80 or best offer :o https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Leatherman-FREE-P4-Multi-Tool-832640-FREE-SHIP/312579325948?hash=item48c72dfffc:g:uUEAAOSwvjtcupvH
P2 for $75 or best offer :o https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Leatherman-FREE-P2-Multi-Tool-832636-FREE-SHIP/382910784156?hash=item592742e29c:g:98IAAOSw8KpcuqC1
Pretty sure these are scams
Post by: Sam Lim on April 20, 2019, 06:50:52 PM
And the flood gate is opened on eBay >:D Tread very carefully with these deals:
P4 for $80 or best offer :o https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Leatherman-FREE-P4-Multi-Tool-832640-FREE-SHIP/312579325948?hash=item48c72dfffc:g:uUEAAOSwvjtcupvH
P2 for $75 or best offer :o https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Leatherman-FREE-P2-Multi-Tool-832636-FREE-SHIP/382910784156?hash=item592742e29c:g:98IAAOSw8KpcuqC1
Pretty sure these are scams
Yeah saw them also. Definitely too good to be true for now. Though I am pretty sure few months down the road, that prices should be quite legit.
Post by: chrono on April 20, 2019, 07:00:08 PM
Yeah saw them also. Definitely too good to be true for now. Though I am pretty sure few months down the road, that prices should be quite legit.The tell-tale sight beside the price is the two listings having exactly the same text though from two different eBay IDs. Normally, I would jump right in with eBay having my back. However, with the recent horror from a scammer (this guy https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=jimcass815&ftab=AllFeedback&rt=nc), who tied up my money for over a month, I stay away from these kinds of listings.
Post by: ReamerPunch on April 20, 2019, 07:18:03 PM
Post by: ReamerPunch on April 20, 2019, 07:22:19 PM
Post by: JustinCase on April 20, 2019, 07:40:14 PM
The tell-tale sight beside the price is the two listings having exactly the same text though from two different eBay IDs. Normally, I would jump right in with eBay having my back. However, with the recent horror from a scammer (this guy https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=jimcass815&ftab=AllFeedback&rt=nc), who tied up my money for over a month, I stay away from these kinds of listings.
Low price. Images taken from website picture. Several tools available for sale. No response to messages?...Hmmm :think: just like the previous auction. You can not trust eBay sellers anymore, even if they are from USA and have excellent 100% feedback.
Post by: ReamerPunch on April 20, 2019, 07:48:13 PM
The tell-tale sight beside the price is the two listings having exactly the same text though from two different eBay IDs. Normally, I would jump right in with eBay having my back. However, with the recent horror from a scammer (this guy https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=jimcass815&ftab=AllFeedback&rt=nc), who tied up my money for over a month, I stay away from these kinds of listings.
Holy smurf, the negative feedback track record of this seller is just disgusting. Why is he still allowed to do business? :facepalm:
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 20, 2019, 07:57:38 PM
Obviously, both camps are perfectly correct. It is an entirely fresh and innovative concept. It also doesn't do anything significantly different or better to what others do at a lower price. In fact some would (probably rightly) argue that the cheaper tools will do stuff better (file stuff, access recessed screws, stay shut).
So depending on whether you want something new and conceptually different, or whether you just want a tool that works, depends on how much extra value is in the tool. For the collector, magnetic retention, clumping reinvented as a positive feature, and elastomer springs, may well be worth the outlay. For the user, the additional cost might possibly be justified, if you need to fumble each and every tool out one handed, assuming you have the dexterity and hand size to juggle holding the tool, whilst manipulating one implement one way, the the rest another. Good luck with wet, cold or greasy hands. There's no other functional benefit to all that expense and innovation that I can see. From the comments in this thread, I'm not alone.
However, my views, and the views of the eager collector, should not detract from each other, because from what I can see, they are the target audience. They are the ones who have most to gain from the innovation, inclusion of magnets, and a sheath that shows muck quicker. There is nothing significantly new for the user, but it is revolutionary for the collector. For the heavy tool user, the tool will turn black within a few months anyway, and they'll have probably fumbled the tool enough times to stick with using it two handed, for all but the most awkward of circumstances.
I don't think this is a tool for anyone who doesn't have a multitool yet, or indeed for anyone whose array of other Leatherman tools, isn't already well into double figures. But that's OK. It's like the concept cars that you see at car shows, that nobody will ever use for driving to work in. They'll be bought by people who already have far more practical and affordable options for daily use. If people want to get all excited over this, then good for them. I'm sure they will find a far higher value from it than I ever would.
That said, I think the knife versions have more functional benefit for the regular user than the pliers tools do, and I understand they'll be more sensibly priced, so maybe the regular user (though still not me) will potentially get something new that's worth trying out of this new concept after all.
What do those who think the pliers are a pointless ripoff, think about the non-plier based tools in this line?
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 20, 2019, 08:36:35 PM
I appreciate your viewpoints and commentary on the Free series. But, that said, I think you are straw-manning the P series a bit.
Example:
Quote
For the collector, magnetic retention, clumping reinvented as a positive feature, and elastomer springs, may well be worth the outlay. For the user, the additional cost might possibly be justified, if you need to fumble each and every tool out one handed, assuming you have the dexterity and hand size to juggle holding the tool, whilst manipulating one implement one way, the the rest another.The reinvention of clumping as a positive feature didn't include the fact that the tangs are over sized specifically to make the tools OHO accessible for selection. And, I'm quite certain, someone who uses MTs very often won't be fumbling around to get tools out. I can OHO inside tools on most MTs, and much more easily the outboard tools.
It may be a bit better to wait and see what the general consensus of the function is before asserting the design is inefficient. IMHO of course.
Post by: genevabuck on April 20, 2019, 08:43:53 PM
Has no forum member bought one yet? :think:
Some of us have and are waiting on shipping. Mine just left Utah, in route to Ohio.
Post by: ddogu on April 20, 2019, 08:57:35 PM
:iagree: I am glad they tried something different :like: I have tried not to be a naysayer and will leave judgement to myself and to MTO members :cheers: If it is a fail then we will scatter trying to get one or 2 for the collection :D if it is a win then it is great for everyone :tu: I really hope it is a win becasue they look very cool 8)
Getting excited to see one of these out in the wild and hopefully in person :ahhh maybe a trip to a store that carries LM for me is due :think: :D
:iagree:
Post by: Monrogue on April 20, 2019, 09:10:27 PM
Has no forum member bought one yet? :think:
I have a P2 on the way and looks to be here Tuesday :D
Post by: ReamerPunch on April 20, 2019, 09:25:25 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 20, 2019, 09:27:05 PM
Post by: ReamerPunch on April 20, 2019, 09:27:41 PM
Post by: Wspeed on April 20, 2019, 09:31:26 PM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 20, 2019, 09:36:20 PM
AW,
I appreciate your viewpoints and commentary on the Free series. But, that said, I think you are straw-manning the P series a bit.
Example:The reinvention of clumping as a positive feature didn't include the fact that the tangs are over sized specifically to make the tools OHO accessible for selection. And, I'm quite certain, someone who uses MTs very often won't be fumbling around to get tools out. I can OHO inside tools on most MTs, and much more easily the outboard tools.
It may be a bit better to wait and see what the general consensus of the function is before asserting the design is inefficient. IMHO of course.
Well, until we get some user reviews, and more members here have spent time with one, all we can do is speculate :D There's no reason we shouldn't share our views in the meantime ;) We shouldn't have to just restrict our views to positive views :) but yes, I am well aware that I might have to eat my words later. :D
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on April 20, 2019, 09:58:21 PM
I have a P2 on the way and looks to be here Tuesday :DMonrogue ... Monrogue ... :think:
I vaguely remember something about a rotating schedule ... And me using it to poke somebody ... :think:
Show content
Good to have you back here buddy :cheers:.
Hope you will enjoy your P2. Over here we'll have to wait for August to get a tool from the Free series ::).
Hope you will enjoy your P2. Over here we'll have to wait for August to get a tool from the Free series ::).
Post by: Monrogue on April 20, 2019, 10:03:59 PM
Monrogue ... Monrogue ... :think:Hey man, my schedule is long gone nowadays. I just carry whatever MT I feel like now, but it’s been limited to a select few at this point. Mostly dominated by my silver/black Wave. In theory with the concept of the Free P2, I may find that takes top spot. We shall see.....and it sucks you have to wait a few extra months if you’re looking to get one :(
I vaguely remember something about a rotating schedule ... And me using it to poke somebody ... :think:Show contentGood to have you back here buddy :cheers:.
Hope you will enjoy your P2. Over here we'll have to wait for August to get a tool from the Free series ::).
I’m glad to be back around, even though it took a new toy to bring me out of hiding :whistle:
Post by: Syncop8r on April 20, 2019, 10:04:37 PM
Pros
- new 'architecture'
- all outside opening tools
- easy access tools
- less handle splay
- fiddle factor!
Cons
- size and shape of interior tools
- cost
I would love to try one out but unfortunately it will be a long time until I can afford one so I will just have to sit back, :popcorn: , :dd: and :drool: .
Post by: jonon9 on April 20, 2019, 10:04:54 PM
First off my biggest grip with this tool is the price. In Ireland the P4 is selling for a whopping 220 euro which to me is madness now Im hoping its just because its the new thing out and the marketing machine at the controls but after a few months it might tell a different story.
Secondly I would love to have seen a bit holder and the scissors from the surge the small file tool to me is useless but thats just my opinion. Of all the Free tools I am most interested in the K2 and T4.
Edit: Just did a quick search and I can buy for 220 euro a Leatherman Charge+ Black.
Post by: Monrogue on April 20, 2019, 10:06:56 PM
There seems to be a very clear divide here, between those who think "Ooh, Leatherman has brought out an entire new line, with magnets and stuff", and those who think "why do they want double the price for something that only does what my other stuff does?"
Obviously, both camps are perfectly correct. It is an entirely fresh and innovative concept. It also doesn't do anything significantly different or better to what others do at a lower price. In fact some would (probably rightly) argue that the cheaper tools will do stuff better (file stuff, access recessed screws, stay shut).
So depending on whether you want something new and conceptually different, or whether you just want a tool that works, depends on how much extra value is in the tool. For the collector, magnetic retention, clumping reinvented as a positive feature, and elastomer springs, may well be worth the outlay. For the user, the additional cost might possibly be justified, if you need to fumble each and every tool out one handed, assuming you have the dexterity and hand size to juggle holding the tool, whilst manipulating one implement one way, the the rest another. Good luck with wet, cold or greasy hands. There's no other functional benefit to all that expense and innovation that I can see. From the comments in this thread, I'm not alone.
However, my views, and the views of the eager collector, should not detract from each other, because from what I can see, they are the target audience. They are the ones who have most to gain from the innovation, inclusion of magnets, and a sheath that shows muck quicker. There is nothing significantly new for the user, but it is revolutionary for the collector. For the heavy tool user, the tool will turn black within a few months anyway, and they'll have probably fumbled the tool enough times to stick with using it two handed, for all but the most awkward of circumstances.
I don't think this is a tool for anyone who doesn't have a multitool yet, or indeed for anyone whose array of other Leatherman tools, isn't already well into double figures. But that's OK. It's like the concept cars that you see at car shows, that nobody will ever use for driving to work in. They'll be bought by people who already have far more practical and affordable options for daily use. If people want to get all excited over this, then good for them. I'm sure they will find a far higher value from it than I ever would.
That said, I think the knife versions have more functional benefit for the regular user than the pliers tools do, and I understand they'll be more sensibly priced, so maybe the regular user (though still not me) will potentially get something new that's worth trying out of this new concept after all.
What do those who think the pliers are a pointless ripoff, think about the non-plier based tools in this line?
I know I’ve been away quite a bit, but despite the different name, you remind me an awful lot of someone from the past..... :think:
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 20, 2019, 10:25:02 PM
I know I’ve been away quite a bit, but despite the different name, you remind me an awful lot of someone from the past..... :think:
The clue is in the sig line, buddy :D (the words, and the badges ;) )
Good to see you back :cheers:
Post by: Monrogue on April 20, 2019, 10:30:11 PM
The clue is in the sig line, buddy :D (the words, and the badges ;) )
Good to see you back :cheers:
Didn’t see your sig line until now, but I could tell by your pic and post who you are ;)
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 20, 2019, 11:02:26 PM
Well, until we get some user reviews, and more members here have spent time with one, all we can do is speculate :D There's no reason we shouldn't share our views in the meantime ;) We shouldn't have to just restrict our views to positive views :) but yes, I am well aware that I might have to eat my words later. :DFair enough. :cheers:
Post by: gilson65 on April 20, 2019, 11:54:53 PM
I have a P2 on the way and looks to be here Tuesday :D
Likewise :cheers:
Post by: genevabuck on April 21, 2019, 12:26:51 AM
Post by: Syncop8r on April 21, 2019, 12:49:49 AM
Post by: JonesE on April 21, 2019, 02:17:46 AM
I just received my Free P4 today. So it is still a little early to do a review of the tool. I will stick to initial observations instead.
Starting with the pliers. They seem to be of the same quality and strength class as you would find in the surge. Any flex I found was in the handle when squeezing. I detected no flex in the jaws or pivot. Opening the handless and the pliers click into place with a satisfying click. There is a notch in which the pliers click into when opened. I will be keeping an eye on this area. I do like the pivot bolts for the plier heads and wish they would have used a similar set up for the individual tools.
The handles are nice and comfortable with a nice radiused edge. I do like the texture on the raised panel and I think many of you will like it. One comment on the individual tool release is that it will dig into the meat of your hand if you are squeezing the handle hard.
Moving on to the individual tools. The main non serrated blade is easy to open. It has a nice hollow grind with good length. The scissors are good, but prefer the Surge scissors to these. The Philips and Large Flat Head Screwdriver are nice as well. On the other side is the saw which is good. The serrated blade with a tanto type point to match the saw. Initial impression of the serrated blade is that I would have preferred a full size file to this. Your mileage may vary if you use a serrated blade a lot. Can opener is good and no complaints there. The awl does double duty as a small Flat Head Screwdriver. I would have preferred a awl like the surge. The medium Flat Head Screwdriver has CM and an inch rule later etch on it. The file is small and is limited due to size constraints due to the placement Leatherman chose for it. I had no issue with using the lock. I found the individual tools easy to deploy.
The biggest thing with the new tool will be developing muscle memory to easily deploy all the tools. I would say overall I am happy with the new P4 and look forward to using it in the coming weeks and months ahead.
Please note: these are my initial observations after just receiving my new P4.
JonesE
Post by: Poncho65 on April 21, 2019, 02:22:00 AM
Post by: JonesE on April 21, 2019, 02:48:46 AM
JonesE
Post by: Happy Gilmore on April 21, 2019, 03:00:17 AM
Hi MUltitool.org followers,Thank you so much for this and welcome. Hope you stick around for a lot more discussion.
I just received my Free P4 today. So it is still a little early to do a review of the tool. I will stick to initial observations instead.
Starting with the pliers. They seem to be of the same quality and strength class as you would find in the surge. Any flex I found was in the handle when squeezing. I detected no flex in the jaws or pivot. Opening the handless and the pliers click into place with a satisfying click. There is a notch in which the pliers click into when opened. I will be keeping an eye on this area. I do like the pivot bolts for the plier heads and wish they would have used a similar set up for the individual tools.
The handles are nice and comfortable with a nice radiused edge. I do like the texture on the raised panel and I think many of you will like it. One comment on the individual tool release is that it will dig into the meat of your hand if you are squeezing the handle hard.
Moving on to the individual tools. The main non serrated blade is easy to open. It has a nice hollow grind with good length. The scissors are good, but prefer the Surge scissors to these. The Philips and Large Flat Head Screwdriver are nice as well. On the other side is the saw which is good. The serrated blade with a tanto type point to match the saw. Initial impression of the serrated blade is that I would have preferred a full size file to this. Your mileage may vary if you use a serrated blade a lot. Can opener is good and no complaints there. The awl does double duty as a small Flat Head Screwdriver. I would have preferred a awl like the surge. The medium Flat Head Screwdriver has CM and an inch rule later etch on it. The file is small and is limited due to size constraints due to the placement Leatherman chose for it. I had no issue with using the lock. I found the individual tools easy to deploy.
The biggest thing with the new tool will be developing muscle memory to easily deploy all the tools. I would say overall I am happy with the new P4 and look forward to using it in the coming weeks and months ahead.
Please note: these are my initial observations after just receiving my new P4.
JonesE
Cheers,
HG
Post by: Syncop8r on April 21, 2019, 03:00:48 AM
Welcome to :MTO: Jones :cheers: Thanks for the initial thoughts :salute: :like:+1 on both.
Post by: gustophersmob on April 21, 2019, 03:07:06 AM
Post by: Sea Monster on April 21, 2019, 03:07:37 AM
I'm very interested to see the awl/screwdriver in action - It seems unworkable to me - I can use my Swiss awls to ream out small bits of timber or plastic. I feel that with the "screwdriver tip" this concept will be limited in use, but perhaps the side of it will act as a bit of a "blade saver" for unsavoury tasks...
To address AW's question, just on marketing pictures alone - I would consider the K4 or K2 (or maybe a T4) "theoretically" as a carry - but since I can buy a freestyle + style, or even a Skeletool + that Skeletool knife thing for less, I'd be unlikely to on function alone.
If, big *If*, the blade and handle ergonomics were particularly good - on par with dedicated knife making competitors, I might spring for it - or I might not.
I recently handled a Ruike knife, and though it was only for a bit of a fiddle, I was pretty impressed - and their range of multifunctional knives is pretty decent, and much more price competitive than LM.
https://ruikeknives.ca/product-category/multi-functional-knives/
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 21, 2019, 03:29:47 AM
Post by: Monrogue on April 21, 2019, 03:53:40 AM
+1 on both.
+2
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 21, 2019, 04:54:40 AM
Hi MUltitool.org followers,Awesome information, JonesE! :salute:
I just received my Free P4 today. So it is still a little early to do a review of the tool. I will stick to initial observations instead.
Starting with the pliers. They seem to be of the same quality and strength class as you would find in the surge. Any flex I found was in the handle when squeezing. I detected no flex in the jaws or pivot. Opening the handless and the pliers click into place with a satisfying click. There is a notch in which the pliers click into when opened. I will be keeping an eye on this area. I do like the pivot bolts for the plier heads and wish they would have used a similar set up for the individual tools.
The handles are nice and comfortable with a nice radiused edge. I do like the texture on the raised panel and I think many of you will like it. One comment on the individual tool release is that it will dig into the meat of your hand if you are squeezing the handle hard.
Moving on to the individual tools. The main non serrated blade is easy to open. It has a nice hollow grind with good length. The scissors are good, but prefer the Surge scissors to these. The Philips and Large Flat Head Screwdriver are nice as well. On the other side is the saw which is good. The serrated blade with a tanto type point to match the saw. Initial impression of the serrated blade is that I would have preferred a full size file to this. Your mileage may vary if you use a serrated blade a lot. Can opener is good and no complaints there. The awl does double duty as a small Flat Head Screwdriver. I would have preferred a awl like the surge. The medium Flat Head Screwdriver has CM and an inch rule later etch on it. The file is small and is limited due to size constraints due to the placement Leatherman chose for it. I had no issue with using the lock. I found the individual tools easy to deploy.
The biggest thing with the new tool will be developing muscle memory to easily deploy all the tools. I would say overall I am happy with the new P4 and look forward to using it in the coming weeks and months ahead.
Please note: these are my initial observations after just receiving my new P4.
JonesE
Welcome to the MT madhouse! Heck of a way to begin a membership. :like:
Post by: aussieman on April 21, 2019, 08:16:29 AM
P2 = 15.8mm
P4 = 17.1mm
That can’t be right can it? You can’t do a blade plus spacer in 1.3mm :dunno:
See 19m:21s https://youtu.be/Tn2OQ7mXOQA
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 21, 2019, 08:26:14 AM
In this video our Russian friend measures the width as
P2 = 15.8mm
P4 = 17.1mm
That can’t be right can it? You can’t do a blade plus spacer in 1.3mm :dunno:
See 19m:21s https://youtu.be/Tn2OQ7mXOQA
Don't know about the thickness stuff yet, but those things look like the fit & finish is outstanding. Possibly superior to the SwissTools.
Post by: Gareth on April 21, 2019, 09:17:35 AM
In this video our Russian friend measures the width asNot unless the P2 has some extra padding that can be removed perhaps? :dunno:
P2 = 15.8mm
P4 = 17.1mm
That can’t be right can it? You can’t do a blade plus spacer in 1.3mm :dunno:
See 19m:21s https://youtu.be/Tn2OQ7mXOQA
Post by: glkllnpg on April 21, 2019, 10:03:10 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 21, 2019, 10:20:33 AM
We need answers! Let the next one be a virgin! Tear it apart! :ahhh
J/K of course. Maybe. :whistle:
Post by: an0nemus on April 21, 2019, 12:24:21 PM
Hi MUltitool.org followers,Thanks for your initial impressions.
I just received my Free P4 today. So it is still a little early to do a review of the tool. I will stick to initial observations instead.
Starting with the pliers. They seem to be of the same quality and strength class as you would find in the surge. Any flex I found was in the handle when squeezing. I detected no flex in the jaws or pivot. Opening the handless and the pliers click into place with a satisfying click. There is a notch in which the pliers click into when opened. I will be keeping an eye on this area. I do like the pivot bolts for the plier heads and wish they would have used a similar set up for the individual tools.
The handles are nice and comfortable with a nice radiused edge. I do like the texture on the raised panel and I think many of you will like it. One comment on the individual tool release is that it will dig into the meat of your hand if you are squeezing the handle hard.
Moving on to the individual tools. The main non serrated blade is easy to open. It has a nice hollow grind with good length. The scissors are good, but prefer the Surge scissors to these. The Philips and Large Flat Head Screwdriver are nice as well. On the other side is the saw which is good. The serrated blade with a tanto type point to match the saw. Initial impression of the serrated blade is that I would have preferred a full size file to this. Your mileage may vary if you use a serrated blade a lot. Can opener is good and no complaints there. The awl does double duty as a small Flat Head Screwdriver. I would have preferred a awl like the surge. The medium Flat Head Screwdriver has CM and an inch rule later etch on it. The file is small and is limited due to size constraints due to the placement Leatherman chose for it. I had no issue with using the lock. I found the individual tools easy to deploy.
The biggest thing with the new tool will be developing muscle memory to easily deploy all the tools. I would say overall I am happy with the new P4 and look forward to using it in the coming weeks and months ahead.
Please note: these are my initial observations after just receiving my new P4.
JonesE
I saw this in my Facebook feed a few days ago. Is your Free as wiggly as this these handles?
https://youtu.be/iGHbvwGjf3k
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 21, 2019, 12:38:37 PM
https://youtu.be/e0X8XW5Ejyw
The opening for the pliers to sink into removes a lot of structural strength. But, that said, it doesn't usually impede the function. I have beaten on a Gerber Suspension NXT(in addition to the Spirit) pretty hard and the flexing hasn't been a real problem.
Post by: NetsNJ on April 21, 2019, 06:36:33 PM
Fidget factor looks even better than a Swisstool.
The small file is a bummer though. Would rather have a long file in exchange for scissors or serrated blade.
One pet peeves is the shape of the saw on the p4. It looks like the cutting edge could have been longer given the corner on top. But maybe there is a reason structurally for this that I can't see.
Will wait a while for price to drop though.
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on April 21, 2019, 07:00:53 PM
That is an inherent problem with most MTs with outboard tools. See the Spirit does the dance just as nicely.
https://youtu.be/e0X8XW5Ejyw
The opening for the pliers to sink into removes a lot of structural strength. But, that said, it doesn't usually impede the function. I have beaten on a Gerber Suspension NXT(in addition to the Spirit) pretty hard and the flexing hasn't been a real problem.
The YouTube clips showing the handle play like that are usually the worst cases. I mean, none of my Spirits flex like that, and my Swisstools seem to have even less flex. Same goes for handle flex on my ST300 and Rebar, seen some terrifying stuff on the net but in reality things were never as bad as that.
So I'm guessing (hoping) that video of the P4 was also one of the extreme cases, if you know what I mean.
Post by: JonesE on April 21, 2019, 07:25:30 PM
Thanks for all the warm welcome guys.
JonesE
Post by: Poncho65 on April 21, 2019, 07:29:32 PM
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,81316.0.html
Also thanks for more feedback about your one, Jones :cheers:
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 21, 2019, 09:50:03 PM
The YouTube clips showing the handle play like that are usually the worst cases. I mean, none of my Spirits flex like that, and my Swisstools seem to have even less flex. Same goes for handle flex on my ST300 and Rebar, seen some terrifying stuff on the net but in reality things were never as bad as that.Sorry, T-G. I should have mentioned that the Spirit clip is mine. And I only posted it, because I can make all four of my SwissTools wiggle like that. But, as I said, that kind of movement doesn't mean anything negative for real-world use. The guy doing that to his Free was probably trying pretty hard to make it do that, possibly for trolling reasons. I can't imagine that being easy if the screws were optimally tightened.
So I'm guessing (hoping) that video of the P4 was also one of the extreme cases, if you know what I mean.
And that being the case, I should add that any MT can be flexed like that with enough hand strength. MTs with outboard tools are just easier to do it to.
Post by: gregpost on April 22, 2019, 05:40:32 AM
Post by: Monrogue on April 22, 2019, 06:20:37 AM
A third party seller called netrush has put the Leatherman P2 and P4 on Amazon for order.
That’s where I ordered my P2
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 22, 2019, 06:44:04 AM
Leatherman's UPS shipping is always slow as smurf.
Post by: genevabuck on April 22, 2019, 06:32:22 PM
I would have had my Free tools by now if I had waited to order on Amazon. :facepalm:
Leatherman's UPS shipping is always slow as smurf.
Yes it is. The one thing that I don’t get about LM is that you can get their tools cheaper and faster from their distributors. You would think that there would be an advantage to cutting out the middle man.
My P4 has apparently arrived. On my home to open the mail.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 22, 2019, 06:42:04 PM
Yes it is. The one thing that I don’t get about LM is that you can get their tools cheaper and faster from their distributors. You would think that there would be an advantage to cutting out the middle man.Indeed. I only bought mine on LM's site, because I randomly woke up too early that morning at 4am and ordered them half-asleep. :rofl:
My P4 has apparently arrived. On my home to open the mail.
:woohoo:
Can't wait to see what you think about it. :popcorn:
Post by: parnass on April 22, 2019, 09:58:55 PM
...The one thing that I don’t get about LM is that you can get their tools cheaper and faster from their distributors. You would think that there would be an advantage to cutting out the middle man. ...
Manufacturers don't want to undercut their dealers. Otherwise, they would have difficulty finding dealers to sell their products.
Post by: gadgetman7 on April 22, 2019, 10:26:58 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 22, 2019, 11:11:36 PM
Looks like the Free is much better than the scrooges presumed(with no intention of buying) and asserted. :like:
With all of the positive comments and reviews out there so far, we can already see the Free P2/P4 are far better than the haters want them to be. Personally, I am eagerly waiting for mine to arrive now. :woohoo:
Really? Anyone who doesn't want to buy one is a scrooge, and wants it to be bad? Behave! :twak:
So far ONE of my concerns has been alleviated, and it doesn't appear the scissors are stowed with the spring under tension. It looks like it's more like the Wingman scissors, and the spring is only under tension when the scissors are locked out. I'm happy that concern was unwarranted.
I don't want it to be bad. I don't want users to struggle to access recessed screws. I don't want the main gripping radius interrupted. I don't want people injuring themself when the pry/tool package opener slips in use, or because the awls pops out of the handle because they gripped it wrong.
I'm not a scrooge because I don't want to buy a VERY expensive tool which has what I consider design weaknesses. Disposable income aside, I buy tools which I consider will give me an advantage over other tools I hope to improve on. If the new tool doesn't give me said advantage, and the old one looks better, I'll share why I think that.
I'm not a hater. Neither are the others in this thread who are unimpressed. I own almost as many Leatherman tools as Gerbers. In this thread, I have highlighted where earlier Leatherman tools have an advantage over this one, and stood in defence of the Wingman when others criticised it. Many people who don't like this tool, are otherwise long term supporters of the company. Most of them probably own more LMs than I do.
You call me out for criticising the tool, and then bad mouth those who don't like what you like :D I absolutely respect your views on the tool GLBM, even if I don't agree with them ;) and genuinely hope you are happy with your purchase. It's not for me, and I'll not be buying (it's not bad BECAUSE I'm not buying), but that doesn't make me, or anyone else, a bad person :pok:
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 22, 2019, 11:20:41 PM
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on April 22, 2019, 11:39:23 PM
Some people are taking their love for the Leatherman brand way too serious and are, maybe unintentionally, being rude at whoever even dares to show some criticism on the brand or one of its tools. I've only seen this happen here on one or two other occasions in the past, and both times with the same brand.
It has to be the first time that I know here at MTO that you're only allowed to join a conversation if you can "prove" that you own that specific tool, and that you're not allowed to show your opinion or doubts on a tool design without owning the tool. And once all negative opinions are filtered out, it's time to say "With all of the positive comments and reviews out there so far, we can already see the Free P2/P4 are far better than the haters want them to be".
Really ? Haters ?
I don't see any haters here, never have ... But I do see a specific fan base getting a bit too fanatical at times (in my view).
The way I see it, some of the biggest Leatherman fans live outside the U.S., because not many people in the U.S. would pay what we have to cough up here. And even with the insane prices I still own a lot of them, after having spend so much cash on one of my favorite brands (Yes, I'm a huge Leatherman fan, always have, always will) it hurts to be called a hater (not in person, but it could be implied to anyone who had something negative to say here ...)
It's not my intention to heat things up here, I just wanted to share my concerns about this and I hope the mods can step in and clear the air a bit ...
Greetings,
Eric "TG-24"
Edit: Just noticed that somebody else already said what I wanted to say (and he did a better job than me :-[). That's what you get when you have to translate stuff in your mind before you can write it down ... too late ... :facepalm:
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 22, 2019, 11:39:55 PM
What gets me so heated sometimes is the relentless reasoning of why something is bad, without any intention of buying/using one.
:think: If someone (or in this case, many people) feel the need to be so vociferous about a tool, why would they have any intention of buying or using it :D
I do understand your position to some extent. The forum has at times been awash with people saying the Dime is an atrocious waste of metal, when they in many cases never owned one. I've had one on my keys since they were released, and it's not faltered once, whereas my Style PS has been replaced twice, and I refuse to send it back in a third time. That's their view though, and they're no less entitled to share that, than I am to say "mine's been great" :)
For what it's worth, my views on the Free line have evolved. How secure the closed retention is, was a late concern for me. I now feel that the non-plier tools may be a very worthwhile thing to try for fans of locking blades who want a few extra features, and seem to offer better value for money. I still won't be buying those, but only because I don't carry locking folders (I reach for a fixed blade instead), and not due to anything brand related :salute:
I hope I shouldn't in your view be excluded from every discussing the tool again, because i've already said bad thing about it. :D I look forward to hearing your views when yours arrives :cheers:
Post by: McStitchy on April 22, 2019, 11:40:30 PM
I did raise an eyebrow slightly for a millisecond when I read your comment in the other thread.
I don't take it personally :D
Gadgetman7 made a very nice review there and apart from the pliers and the scissors I do not see any improvement to the Wave or Surge that would convince me yet (personally).
It appears that the tools can open when the pliers snap closed. I'd rather not have that new magnet-tool-opening feature then.
And I must add that I simply cannot afford buying one to just try it out myself. Instead I will keep monitoring yours and others comments and maybe start saving for Christmas :salute:
I highly value your thoughts on your P4 when you have it :hatsoff:
Post by: SteveC on April 22, 2019, 11:45:00 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 22, 2019, 11:48:41 PM
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on April 22, 2019, 11:55:33 PM
I want to apologize for my agitation in regards to all of this. I got caught up in wanting something new to be really good. I cannot justify my childish behavior, and will not try.
We all get carried away sometimes, and the awaiting of a completely new tool series can cause some tool-fever (been there ... ::)).
;)
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 22, 2019, 11:57:55 PM
I want to apologize for my agitation in regards to all of this. I got caught up in wanting something new to be really good. I cannot justify my childish behavior, and will not try.
:salute:
Post by: McStitchy on April 23, 2019, 12:00:12 AM
Post by: george1 on April 23, 2019, 12:33:23 AM
Post by: Monrogue on April 23, 2019, 12:49:19 AM
Does the P2/P4 come with the pocket clip?
The P2 does, and I think the clip for the P4 is a separate accessory to be ordered.
Post by: SirVicaLot on April 23, 2019, 05:16:43 AM
I want to apologize for my agitation in regards to all of this. I got caught up in wanting something new to be really good. I cannot justify my childish behavior, and will not try.
You are very passionate about tools, nothing wrong with that :cheers:
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 23, 2019, 06:28:22 AM
You are very passionate about tools, nothing wrong with that :cheers::cheers:
Post by: Blackbeard on April 23, 2019, 09:22:28 AM
Post by: Aloha on April 23, 2019, 03:09:42 PM
BTW is anyone ordering the other tools? Is seems the plier based ones are more anxiously awaited :dunno:
Post by: SirVicaLot on April 23, 2019, 03:14:43 PM
Post by: Aloha on April 23, 2019, 03:18:32 PM
Post by: SirVicaLot on April 23, 2019, 03:25:43 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 23, 2019, 03:40:38 PM
:iagree: I think they will be released later. I think it was June, but not 100% sure :think:What he said. :iagree:
Indeed. I am not worried, because it will be a while before the T and K series are released for sale. Those are on the want list as well. :)
Post by: gadgetman7 on April 23, 2019, 03:47:14 PM
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: SirVicaLot on April 23, 2019, 06:55:26 PM
I think the T and K series are worth looking at. I do wonder how thick they’ll be though. (Says the guy who sometimes pocket carries a Swisschamp)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
That will be interesting to see. I hope they do not exceed a 4 layer SAK.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 23, 2019, 07:12:00 PM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 23, 2019, 07:42:25 PM
They are going to be thicker. The all-tool locking system, which the SAK doesn't have, inherently makes it thicker from the start. Tack on the thicker drivers, large knife, etc. and you have a thicker tool. :)
I'm not so sure.
If you think about one handle of the P2 or P4, that has the blade/s alongside the other tools, whereas the K series has the blade and tools in the same layer space, so they could be slimmer
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 23, 2019, 07:49:14 PM
Edit: Went to LM's site and they don't have the thickness posted, at least not where I can find it. But, going by the weight on the T4 at 4.3oz, I'd bet it was thicker than a 4-layer sak. The T2 at 3.3oz may be closer, not counting the pocket clip) to a 4 layer sak.
Post by: SirVicaLot on April 23, 2019, 08:54:46 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 23, 2019, 09:00:07 PM
Post by: sawman on April 23, 2019, 09:00:42 PM
That would be a bummer. I don't really need locking tools, especially not a locking blade. Where i normally carry my tools, a locking blade is either frowned upon or illegal.These kind of remarks on non locking implements keep bringing me back to the PST. So... leatherman finally releases "a" PST after decades and what do they do?? Slap a $250 price tag on the SOB. This is just asinine!
I like leatherman but they're talking a smurf on a lot of their customers....
Post by: ReamerPunch on April 23, 2019, 09:04:15 PM
Or an inside-out Rebar. :dd:
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 23, 2019, 09:14:44 PM
Post by: SirVicaLot on April 23, 2019, 09:20:49 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 23, 2019, 09:23:44 PM
:iagree: but they could do something similar. I really like the small form factor of the PST, it would be great if they could go from there and evolve and improve on it.Very true. :cheers:
A PST III would be awesome. Outside tools, non-locking, and replaceable cutter pliers. All with a thin profile like a PST. :dd:
Post by: sawman on April 23, 2019, 09:26:23 PM
I will say that the Limited Edition PST I bought, which was $149, has the best fit & finish of any MT I own. I don't feel it was a rip-off at $149, but to each their own. I do agree $250 is ridiculous though. Also, LM did take note of the fact they COULD NOT make a new PST for $40. If they had charged more than that for a tool with similar fit & finish to the OG PST, a large majority of possible users would say, "I can get a NIB OG PST on eBay for $40, so why would I pay WAY more than that for the same thing?" :PI could almost go along with that had they used better steel on the tools, especially the blade, but it says 420 HC in the specs.
I still own and use PST's and sometimes their slim and compact profile makes them the best choice for light carry and functionality.
Post by: SirVicaLot on April 23, 2019, 09:41:32 PM
Very true. :cheers:
A PST III would be awesome. Outside tools, non-locking, and replaceable cutter pliers. All with a thin profile like a PST. :dd:
:like: Hey LM, here is your next idea. Now off to the drawing board and make it happen :D
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 23, 2019, 09:44:05 PM
:like: Hey LM, here is your next idea. Now off to the drawing board and make it happen :D:like:
AND, LM, please make it for $80 or less, if possible. :)
Post by: gadgetman7 on April 23, 2019, 09:47:45 PM
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 23, 2019, 09:53:40 PM
Let the tools lock. Just replace the knife blade with an exchange a blade system that takes craft blades. You could remove the blade and still have a locking tool.Well. Then they could just make a Rebar+ with craft blade exchanger. :D
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
The whole appeal of the PST is the incomparably thin profile. :)
Post by: SirVicaLot on April 23, 2019, 10:19:44 PM
I am surprised anyway that almost none of the big 4 have come up with a solution to the knife „problem“. Some places you can take a knife others you can‘t. Some places it can be lockable others it can‘t be. Why are we not seeing any removable knives? There must be a way to do it :think:
Post by: sawman on April 23, 2019, 10:23:32 PM
I would have no problem paying $100 for an evolved PST, because that would be the exact tool i wanted.
I am surprised anyway that almost none of the big 4 have come up with a solution to the knife „problem“. Some places you can take a knife others you can‘t. Some places it can be lockable others it can‘t be. Why are we not seeing any removable knives? There must be a way to do it :think:
If the manufacturers offered a user serviceable tool or at least offered it in enough configurations, I think it would have a decent chance.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 23, 2019, 10:30:39 PM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 23, 2019, 10:33:31 PM
I would have no problem paying $100 for an evolved PST, because that would be the exact tool i wanted.
I am surprised anyway that almost none of the big 4 have come up with a solution to the knife „problem“. Some places you can take a knife others you can‘t. Some places it can be lockable others it can‘t be. Why are we not seeing any removable knives? There must be a way to do it :think:
The early Bear & Sons tools, solved it perfectly. Resurrect those with the fit and finish that we expect today. Essentially, a non-locking Spirit type affair.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 23, 2019, 10:36:30 PM
Heck, a new Bear Jaws 155 can be had for $50 sometimes. The non-locking versions are still pretty good. Just avoid the locking versions, as they are a hot mess. :facepalm:
Post by: SirVicaLot on April 23, 2019, 10:38:04 PM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 23, 2019, 10:49:54 PM
Post by: Syncop8r on April 23, 2019, 10:52:12 PM
Heck, a new Bear Jaws 155 can be had for $50 sometimes. The non-locking versions are still pretty good. Just avoid the locking versions, as they are a hot mess. :facepalm:Can a locking version be changed to a non-locking version by just removing the locks? Is that the only difference?
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 23, 2019, 10:54:50 PM
Can a locking version be changed to a non-locking version by just removing the locks? Is that the only difference?Unfortunately removing the unlocking bars makes it lock like an OG SuperTool. But, with even more crude action required to work the tool. The non-locking versions are much better.
I have repaired and modified two of my locking Bears to work perfectly, but it takes a boat load of grinding, filing, and finger-crossing. :ahhh
Post by: SirVicaLot on April 23, 2019, 11:50:53 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 24, 2019, 01:22:40 AM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 24, 2019, 01:50:30 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 24, 2019, 02:16:31 AM
I think the locking versions are all that have been produced for several years now.Seems to be the case. The last one I bought may have been one of the last of them, since it was picked up by my friend who goes to Jacksonville(a few hours north of me in the same state) every year.
I may put another 155L on the list at some point to see if their QC has gone up a bit. The 155EL I got last year was pretty good. Definitely better QC than the 156L I had to send back for repair the same day I got it, because the tools didn't lock on one handle. The lock didn't work, because the 90 degree bend on the retention tab was missing. :facepalm:
Post by: gustophersmob on April 24, 2019, 02:46:37 AM
I've not yet found an LM I like enough to keep, but the Free does seem to try and address what I have considered some major short comings: very inconsistent fit/finish and nail breaking access to tools being the big ones. I like that for the first time since really the PST, I'm excited about what LM is doing. As I've said before, I'm a big Victorinox fan boy, maybe to a fault, but I definitely hope LM succeeds with this design.
I also don't think the price is as crazy as it at first appears. First, LM has a bunch of non-recurring development and tooling costs they need to recoup, it's not like stamping out another tweak on the wave platform or something. Also, it seems like they would have needed to make some considerable investment in their production processes to remove the variability and get the quality to a level that a design like this seems to require. When I consider those things, the price doesn't seem too extreme. Its like any other new thing, the first version is expensive and gets bought by the die-hard, niche fan base. Once the costs are recovered and the bugs ironed out, the technology becomes cheaper and more available on a mass level. Much like an iPhone, for instance.
Really, the prices aren't too far off those of the Swisstool and Spirit, which are many year old designs with (likely) fully amortized start up costs. If,and in my mind its a big "if", LM can meet and maintain a Vic level of consistency, the prices would seem well earned.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 24, 2019, 03:03:50 AM
Just some random thoughts on the prices:
I am actually a little surprised that the P2/P4 aren't a bit more expensive. Having full production in house, in the US, has to be a hit on potential profit. My hats off to them for that effort. Most of their other tools have a certain portion sourced outside to reduce costs.
Most US made pocket knives are somewhat expensive, and the P series has multiple knives worth of engineering, manufacturing, and labor involved. I'm sure they have automated some of the production, but there are still many costs to consider with complicated multitools with high QC and a great warranty.
The Free P2 is similar in cost to a US Spyderco or Benchmade folding knife, but with seriously more complications involved.
I hope that doesn't sound snooty on my part. I own 340+ tools from companies all over the world and do not try to imply any one country produces the best. It just makes me happy to see a company born in Portland, OR making their new tools completely in Portland, OR once again. :)
Post by: Monrogue on April 24, 2019, 03:14:53 AM
So far, it seems like positive feedback on the Free series owners. I'm very curious to try one in person, though I doubt I'll buy as I just don't need one. As I mentioned before, I'm glad LM is experimenting, and even if this first effort turns out to be somewhat uneven, I'm sure it will be refined.
I've not yet found an LM I like enough to keep, but the Free does seem to try and address what I have considered some major short comings: very inconsistent fit/finish and nail breaking access to tools being the big ones. I like that for the first time since really the PST, I'm excited about what LM is doing. As I've said before, I'm a big Victorinox fan boy, maybe to a fault, but I definitely hope LM succeeds with this design.
I also don't think the price is as crazy as it at first appears. First, LM has a bunch of non-recurring development and tooling costs they need to recoup, it's not like stamping out another tweak on the wave platform or something. Also, it seems like they would have needed to make some considerable investment in their production processes to remove the variability and get the quality to a level that a design like this seems to require. When I consider those things, the price doesn't seem too extreme. Its like any other new thing, the first version is expensive and gets bought by the die-hard, niche fan base. Once the costs are recovered and the bugs ironed out, the technology becomes cheaper and more available on a mass level. Much like an iPhone, for instance.
Really, the prices aren't too far off those of the Swisstool and Spirit, which are many year old designs with (likely) fully amortized start up costs. If,and in my mind its a big "if", LM can meet and maintain a Vic level of consistency, the prices would seem well earned.
The fit and finish is very good as far as I can tell, and like you said, there’s likely very little room for variation in quality and consistency of the various implements in order for the design to function properly.
Post by: Monrogue on April 24, 2019, 03:17:09 AM
:like: & :iagree:
Just some random thoughts on the prices:
I am actually a little surprised that the P2/P4 aren't a bit more expensive. Having full production in house, in the US, has to be a hit on potential profit. My hats off to them for that effort. Most of their other tools have a certain portion sourced outside to reduce costs.
Most US made pocket knives are somewhat expensive, and the P series has multiple knives worth of engineering, manufacturing, and labor involved. I'm sure they have automated some of the production, but there are still many costs to consider with complicated multitools with high QC and a great warranty.
The Free P2 is similar in cost to a US Spyderco or Benchmade folding knife, but with seriously more complications involved.
I hope that doesn't sound snooty on my part. I own 340+ tools from companies all over the world and do not try to imply any one country produces the best. It just makes me happy to see a company born in Portland, OR making their new tools completely in Portland, OR once again. :)
Indeed, it’s nice to see “Leatherman USA” on the pliers and knife again :tu:
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 24, 2019, 03:30:15 AM
So far, it seems like positive feedback on the Free series owners. I'm very curious to try one in person, though I doubt I'll buy as I just don't need one.
I'll certainly not be buying, even if I had the cash (I don't), because it's not offering me personally anything I need and don't already have, solution wise. It may well do so for someone else, for whom replaceable cutters or one hand driver access, for example, might be worthwhile additions. There's also design aspects, that are perfectly clear without the need to handle it, which would be a disadvantage to me personally, which I've previously highlighted.
Cost wise, they can invest as much as they want, but if it wouldn't give me as a user, a tangible improvement in performance, the new technology is added cost, but not added value. Fitting a regular screwdriver with a pentagonal cross section titanium extrusion shaft, would be a lavish technical advance from a standard hot worked steel bar... but would it turn screws any better? My £200+ D2 bladed, ingenious backspring folder, with pivot bearing and labour intensive construction that I hardly use, because my £30 folders simply do the job better, is not a scenario that I would want to repeat. I'm not saying all this new fangled gizmology is utterly worthless to everyone, it just doesn't hold any value to this one user.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 24, 2019, 04:54:50 AM
Indeed, it’s nice to see “Leatherman USA” on the pliers and knife again :tu::cheers:
Post by: McStitchy on April 24, 2019, 08:30:15 AM
Here in Europe the prices for Leatherman tools are already often too high. The P2/P4 are topping even that and are just not justify able to buy for me at these prices.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 24, 2019, 02:06:19 PM
I don't know what could be done about European sales, and out-of-country costs as a whole. But, it would be nice if LM could get the prices down a bit. :)
Only thing about SwissTools is the high level of automation has been paid for over 20 years ago. Their costs are mostly materials, warranty and QC at this point. :ahhh
Post by: gustophersmob on April 24, 2019, 02:42:01 PM
I'll certainly not be buying, even if I had the cash (I don't), because it's not offering me personally anything I need and don't already have, solution wise. It may well do so for someone else, for whom replaceable cutters or one hand driver access, for example, might be worthwhile additions. There's also design aspects, that are perfectly clear without the need to handle it, which would be a disadvantage to me personally, which I've previously highlighted.
Cost wise, they can invest as much as they want, but if it wouldn't give me as a user, a tangible improvement in performance, the new technology is added cost, but not added value. Fitting a regular screwdriver with a pentagonal cross section titanium extrusion shaft, would be a lavish technical advance from a standard hot worked steel bar... but would it turn screws any better? My £200+ D2 bladed, ingenious backspring folder, with pivot bearing and labour intensive construction that I hardly use, because my £30 folders simply do the job better, is not a scenario that I would want to repeat. I'm not saying all this new fangled gizmology is utterly worthless to everyone, it just doesn't hold any value to this one user.
I agree, they don’t offer anything that would make me personally buy one, at least by at the current price. I like the idea of one handed access to all the tools, and if I used a plier based tool more, that could be a useful feature. Overall, i appreciate that they are trying something new.
Post by: gustophersmob on April 24, 2019, 02:45:04 PM
:iagree:
I don't know what could be done about European sales, and out-of-country costs as a whole. But, it would be nice if LM could get the prices down a bit. :)
Only thing about SwissTools is the high level of automation has been paid for over 20 years ago. Their costs are mostly materials, warranty and QC at this point. :ahhh
I would speculate that labor costs, combined with the likely high number of individual process steps, are what drive the costs now.
Post by: genevabuck on April 24, 2019, 02:52:01 PM
I would speculate that labor costs, combined with the likely high number of individual process steps, are what drive the costs now.
Not to mention research, development, and the price of steel is up.
Post by: SirVicaLot on April 24, 2019, 03:30:56 PM
If i am not a fan of the company or a collector, why should i buy that? The locking mechanism has nothing to do with how well a tool does its job. It can break a tool, if the tools don‘t stay in, but it cannot make it. If the tools are held in place by conventional means or a magnet doesn‘t matter, as long as the tool implements perform well.
I know that sounds harsh, but this is how the market works. Have any MT companies ever disclosed selling numbers? Would be interesting to see how the Free series will have performed in a year from release.
Post by: gustophersmob on April 24, 2019, 04:37:43 PM
I understand that R&D costs a lot of money and all, but honestly, that is not my problem as a customer. I you want to spend millions to develop a new tool and all that you can show for is a new, fancy closing mechanism than that does not justify an almost 50% increased price to a comparable tool.
If i am not a fan of the company or a collector, why should i buy that? The locking mechanism has nothing to do with how well a tool does its job. It can break a tool, if the tools don‘t stay in, but it cannot make it. If the tools are held in place by conventional means or a magnet doesn‘t matter, as long as the tool implements perform well.
I know that sounds harsh, but this is how the market works. Have any MT companies ever disclosed selling numbers? Would be interesting to see how the Free series will have performed in a year from release.
I disagree, that is not how markets work. Look at anything from computers, to cell phones to cars. New features are introduced at premium prices, often times on product lines that are considered luxury items. Then over time, as production costs are lowered and development costs are recouped, the new tech becomes more available at lower price points. Forty years ago air conditioning was considered a luxury in cars. Now I don't even know if you can buy a car in the US without it.
If you don't want to buy it, that's fine, you likely aren't the target market for these tools.
I'm honestly kind of surprised by some of the comments about how well the tool does its job. If unqualified, those statements seem to imply that MT development could have stopped at the PST. I realize that's not the intent, but there is nothing inherently wrong with incremental refinement that does not significantly impact a tool's basic function. That is much more common in the development of new technology that sudden, great leaps in development.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 24, 2019, 04:47:59 PM
I understand that R&D costs a lot of money and all, but honestly, that is not my problem as a customer. I you want to spend millions to develop a new tool and all that you can show for is a new, fancy closing mechanism than that does not justify an almost 50% increased price to a comparable tool.
If i am not a fan of the company or a collector, why should i buy that? The locking mechanism has nothing to do with how well a tool does its job. It can break a tool, if the tools don‘t stay in, but it cannot make it. If the tools are held in place by conventional means or a magnet doesn‘t matter, as long as the tool implements perform well.
I know that sounds harsh, but this is how the market works. Have any MT companies ever disclosed selling numbers? Would be interesting to see how the Free series will have performed in a year from release.
I agree with this, which is what led me to say it's more of a collector/enthusiast tool, than a regular user tool. Some people will draw added value from aesthetics, innovative design, and new materials concepts. Other potential customers just want it to do the job, and don't particularly care how.
I do appreciate the mechanical design aspects, but won't pay extra for something just because it's new or different. I want function, quality (both of manufacture and design), value, and good ergonomics. I have spent extra money, and even put in extra work myself, to achieve these. However, I also think that the Fuse and Blast delivered these four criteria better than the Rebar or Free P2/P4. That's why I have a Fuse with Blast parts, and offloaded both my Rebars.
Post by: sawman on April 24, 2019, 04:50:02 PM
I disagree, that is not how markets work. Look at anything from computers, to cell phones to cars. New features are introduced at premium prices, often times on product lines that are considered luxury items. Then over time, as production costs are lowered and development costs are recouped, the new tech becomes more available at lower price points. Forty years ago air conditioning was considered a luxury in cars. Now I don't even know if you can buy a car in the US without it.Some days, I think it would be best if they had stopped at the PST and other offerings from that time. I honestly don't see much forward progression TBH. :dunno:
If you don't want to buy it, that's fine, you likely aren't the target market for these tools.
I'm honestly kind of surprised by some of the comments about how well the tool does its job. If unqualified, those statements seem to imply that MT development could have stopped at the PST. I realize that's not the intent, but there is nothing inherently wrong with incremental refinement that does not significantly impact a tool's basic function. That is much more common in the development of new technology that sudden, great leaps in development.
Post by: gustophersmob on April 24, 2019, 04:53:02 PM
Some days, I think it would be best if they had stopped at the PST and other offerings from that time. I honestly don't see much forward progression TBH. :dunno:
And there’s nothing wrong with that, IMO. There’s a lot to love about the PST, for one thing.
It’s just that I also don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with the pursuit of improvements, even if they are initially more costly.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 24, 2019, 05:39:14 PM
I disagree, that is not how markets work. Look at anything from computers, to cell phones to cars. New features are introduced at premium prices, often times on product lines that are considered luxury items. Then over time, as production costs are lowered and development costs are recouped, the new tech becomes more available at lower price points. Forty years ago air conditioning was considered a luxury in cars. Now I don't even know if you can buy a car in the US without it.:iagree:
If you don't want to buy it, that's fine, you likely aren't the target market for these tools.
I'm honestly kind of surprised by some of the comments about how well the tool does its job. If unqualified, those statements seem to imply that MT development could have stopped at the PST. I realize that's not the intent, but there is nothing inherently wrong with incremental refinement that does not significantly impact a tool's basic function. That is much more common in the development of new technology that sudden, great leaps in development.
Very well outlined and excellent points.
Post by: sawman on April 24, 2019, 05:46:42 PM
Then I read a post yesterday about Die Cast pivots on the new skeletool and nearly crapped my pants. I remember paying $25 for a new in clam skeletool and thought that was high. Now they're $60 for the standard version and MSRP seems to have consumed the market. Charge top dollar but dammmmit deliver top quality while you're at it! :twak:
Post by: SirVicaLot on April 24, 2019, 06:23:50 PM
I disagree, that is not how markets work. Look at anything from computers, to cell phones to cars. New features are introduced at premium prices, often times on product lines that are considered luxury items. Then over time, as production costs are lowered and development costs are recouped, the new tech becomes more available at lower price points. Forty years ago air conditioning was considered a luxury in cars. Now I don't even know if you can buy a car in the US without it.
If you don't want to buy it, that's fine, you likely aren't the target market for these tools.
I'm honestly kind of surprised by some of the comments about how well the tool does its job. If unqualified, those statements seem to imply that MT development could have stopped at the PST. I realize that's not the intent, but there is nothing inherently wrong with incremental refinement that does not significantly impact a tool's basic function. That is much more common in the development of new technology that sudden, great leaps in development.
I agree that new features are implemented in the premium lines of manufactureres for a high price. Then once they figure out how to produce it cheaper, it also comes to the standard line. That is my problem with the Free though. Imho the free series is not a premium line. For a premium line mt i expect bit holders, 3D Phillips, maybe a diamond file or something your other lines do not offer.
I don‘t see any of that in the free series and yet they want me to pay premium prices. I just cannot shed the feeling that they are trying to screw me, and that is a feeling a product should never invoke if you want to sell it.
Post by: gustophersmob on April 24, 2019, 06:40:34 PM
I agree that new features are implemented in the premium lines of manufactureres for a high price. Then once they figure out how to produce it cheaper, it also comes to the standard line. That is my problem with the Free though. Imho the free series is not a premium line. For a premium line mt i expect bit holders, 3D Phillips, maybe a diamond file or something your other lines do not offer.
I don‘t see any of that in the free series and yet they want me to pay premium prices. I just cannot shed the feeling that they are trying to screw me, and that is a feeling a product should never invoke if you want to sell it.
I understand that the Free line and it’s new “features” may not be premium to everyone. It’s not to me either.
What I don’t get is how that translates to LM trying to screw you :dunno: They’re not forcing anyone to buy it.
Post by: SirVicaLot on April 24, 2019, 07:50:01 PM
The high price creates a certain expectation, and and least from what i have seen so far it does not live up to it.
Post by: gustophersmob on April 24, 2019, 07:56:48 PM
It is just the feeling i get looking at the tool and the advertising around it. I know that might not be rational, that's why i tried to describe it as a feeling.
The high price creates a certain expectation, and and least from what i have seen so far it does not live up to it.
Yeah, that makes sense. I see what you mean. The price + marketing did try to raise expectations pretty high.
I’d kind of shoved the “marketing” out of mind. That was definitely over the top and a bit stupid (“epic haptics” and the grey sheath nonsense most especially).
Post by: SirVicaLot on April 24, 2019, 08:01:19 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 24, 2019, 08:51:12 PM
Presupposition is hell.
Post by: SirVicaLot on April 24, 2019, 08:54:01 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 24, 2019, 09:05:13 PM
You are right of course. But we wouldn‘t have so much fun arguing about it, if there was a perfect mt :D :cheers:LOL. :rofl:
SOO...DANG...TRUE. :like:
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 24, 2019, 11:18:50 PM
I will add another prediction.
Following on from my rambling post after seeing Monrogue's pics (might have been in the other thread), I now feel confident enough to say that I expect to see failures of the force transfer lugs that nestle into the cut outs on the handle when the pliers are clicked into place. I do not expect this to be as vulnerable as the original Switchplier, but I do expect similar fractures leading to total pliers failure for hard users. The cross section is larger than that of the peg on the Switchplier, and there are two pegs per jaw. Much stronger than that SOG. However, I do think there is a very real risk of fractures there, either through fatigue, or impact loading from pliers slamming shut if they sip off something while being gripped hard.
This will partially depend on the tensile strength that they have managed to produce with the castings. I know from experience, that some stainless castings, with the right heat treatment, can actually be quite ductile. I've managed to successfully cold work straighten some castings up to maybe 2 tonnes in weight on a 500 tonne press in the past, so I do have first hand experience there. (I've also seen some fracture with very low force applied, and it was important to refer to a mechanical test certificate, to see which components were suitable). However, those castings were for an entirely different application and industry, and whether the same ductility can be produced on a casting sufficiently hardened for use as pliers, is beyond my metallurgical knowledge. Also, We're taking about frequent loading, every time the pliers are used, which may be susceptible to creeping cracks.
EDIT: I expect such issues to be infrequent, and more likely to occur over a longer timeframe. So I wouldn't expect to see many, if any, cases within lets say the first 12 months, but wouldn't be surprised to see a couple reports of failure in that area within two or three years.
Post by: sawman on April 24, 2019, 11:23:44 PM
Well, my presumption of tools not being safely retained seems to have some early supporting evidence. I don't care if I get labelled a hater, or by whom, as some of my concerns already appear to be legit.I'm trying to follow here... so it is possible that the free is neither safe opened, or closed?
I will add another prediction.
Following on from my rambling post after seeing Monrogue's pics (might have been in the other thread), I now feel confident enough to say that I expect to see failures of the force transfer lugs that nestle into the cut outs on the handle when the pliers are clicked into place. I do not expect this to be as vulnerable as the original Switchplier, but I do expect similar fractures leading to total pliers failure for hard users. The cross section is larger than that of the peg on the Switchplier, and there are two pegs per jaw. Much stronger than that SOG. However, I do think there is a very real risk of fractures there, either through fatigue, or impact loading from pliers slamming shut if they sip off something while being gripped hard.
This will partially depend on the tensile strength that they have managed to produce with the castings. I know from experience, that some stainless castings, with the right heat treatment, can actually be quite ductile. I've managed to successfully cold work straighten some castings up to maybe 2 tonnes in weight on a 500 tonne press in the past, so I do have first hand experience there. (I've also seen some fracture with very low force applied, and it was important to refer to a mechanical test certificate, to see which components were suitable). However, those castings were for an entirely different application and industry, and whether the same ductility can be produced on a casting sufficiently hardened for use as pliers, is beyond my metallurgical knowledge. Also, We're taking about frequent loading, every time the pliers are used, which may be susceptible to creeping cracks.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 24, 2019, 11:29:56 PM
I'm trying to follow here... so it is possible that the free is neither safe opened, or closed?
I don't expect that lug to present a safety issue, like the sharp tools popping out. More of just a "oops, pliers no worky" scenario.
Post by: genevabuck on April 24, 2019, 11:48:12 PM
I agree that new features are implemented in the premium lines of manufactureres for a high price. Then once they figure out how to produce it cheaper, it also comes to the standard line. That is my problem with the Free though. Imho the free series is not a premium line. For a premium line mt i expect bit holders, 3D Phillips, maybe a diamond file or something your other lines do not offer.
I don‘t see any of that in the free series and yet they want me to pay premium prices. I just cannot shed the feeling that they are trying to screw me, and that is a feeling a product should never invoke if you want to sell it.
To put things into perspective as far as premium prices go the Crunch is now going for $109.00 on the LM website. With the high cost of steel and wages I wouldn’t expect prices to drop any time soon with American made tools, unless the quality is total garbage. Regardless of whether the Free series is your cup of tea or not the tool required a great deal of research, development, new machining and casts, and still requires more quality control. Could they have added better implements? Sure, and I think that they will. Just expect to pay for it.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 25, 2019, 12:31:23 AM
To put things into perspective as far as premium prices go the Crunch is now going for $109.00 on the LM website. With the high cost of steel and wages I wouldn’t expect prices to drop any time soon with American made tools, unless the quality is total garbage. Regardless of whether the Free series is your cup of tea or not the tool required a great deal of research, development, new machining and casts, and still requires more quality control. Could they have added better implements? Sure, and I think that they will. Just expect to pay for it.Well said again, sir! :salute: & :iagree:
I paid the price for the Frees and was glad to do so. Seems a fair price to me after seeing how nice they are, if I'm being honest. :)
Post by: algernonramone on April 25, 2019, 12:41:09 AM
Post by: genevabuck on April 25, 2019, 01:09:06 AM
Post by: gustophersmob on April 25, 2019, 01:54:22 AM
Well, my presumption of tools not being safely retained seems to have some early supporting evidence. I don't care if I get labelled a hater, or by whom, as some of my concerns already appear to be legit.
I will add another prediction.
Following on from my rambling post after seeing Monrogue's pics (might have been in the other thread), I now feel confident enough to say that I expect to see failures of the force transfer lugs that nestle into the cut outs on the handle when the pliers are clicked into place. I do not expect this to be as vulnerable as the original Switchplier, but I do expect similar fractures leading to total pliers failure for hard users. The cross section is larger than that of the peg on the Switchplier, and there are two pegs per jaw. Much stronger than that SOG. However, I do think there is a very real risk of fractures there, either through fatigue, or impact loading from pliers slamming shut if they sip off something while being gripped hard.
This will partially depend on the tensile strength that they have managed to produce with the castings. I know from experience, that some stainless castings, with the right heat treatment, can actually be quite ductile. I've managed to successfully cold work straighten some castings up to maybe 2 tonnes in weight on a 500 tonne press in the past, so I do have first hand experience there. (I've also seen some fracture with very low force applied, and it was important to refer to a mechanical test certificate, to see which components were suitable). However, those castings were for an entirely different application and industry, and whether the same ductility can be produced on a casting sufficiently hardened for use as pliers, is beyond my metallurgical knowledge. Also, We're taking about frequent loading, every time the pliers are used, which may be susceptible to creeping cracks.
EDIT: I expect such issues to be infrequent, and more likely to occur over a longer timeframe. So I wouldn't expect to see many, if any, cases within lets say the first 12 months, but wouldn't be surprised to see a couple reports of failure in that area within two or three years.
These are good points, Al.
I didn’t understand what you meant when you mentioned the potential pliers issue before, but now I get it. Since the plier heads are likely cast, I could see them failing like you describe. Time will tell.
I don’t like how the tools pop out either. I’ve never really had a desire to “butterfly” my pliers open, but given that the tool is designed to do so, it seems like this could potentially injure someone who isn’t aware of the possibility. :-\
Post by: Monrogue on April 25, 2019, 02:34:14 AM
Post by: gadgetman7 on April 25, 2019, 03:36:48 AM
I'm trying to follow here... so it is possible that the free is neither safe opened, or closed?
On my examples it is safe. I can’t shake any of the tools out while the pliers are closed. When the pliers snap open The blades don’t move out at all, only the inside tools. It’s more of an annoyance than anything.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 25, 2019, 05:02:55 AM
Leatherman: OHT - both examples have misaligned/sloppy pliers heads.
Gerber: BO Center-Drive - Has slightly misaligned pliers that make the cutters ineffective on thin stuff.
SOG: PowerAccess Deluxe - Awful file and below-par fit & finish. PowerGrab - Awesome design executed very poorly.
Victorinox: Spirit - Pliers absurdly tight and won't seem to loosen up. Nomad - Main blade has play.
Sheffield: Flip head tool is garbage and almost useless.
I know I should send most of that stuff in for warranty, but I just can't justify all of the shipping costs right now. Though I'll get to it at some point.
Post by: SirVicaLot on April 25, 2019, 05:17:12 AM
To put things into perspective as far as premium prices go the Crunch is now going for $109.00 on the LM website. With the high cost of steel and wages I wouldn’t expect prices to drop any time soon with American made tools, unless the quality is total garbage. Regardless of whether the Free series is your cup of tea or not the tool required a great deal of research, development, new machining and casts, and still requires more quality control. Could they have added better implements? Sure, and I think that they will. Just expect to pay for it.
The crunch is on my want list, and is a good example when you can charge higher prices. As far as i know it is the only MT with locking pliers produced as of today. So it is something special and i am willing to pay more money for it.
The Free series has nothing of that and so i will not pay for it unless the price drops to below $90 (which i know won‘t happen anytime soon).
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 25, 2019, 06:16:30 AM
IT IS THE................WAIT FOR IT.................THE WINGMAN! :woohoo:
So, to start, let me be clear. The Wingman is in no way, shape, quality-wise or aesthetically comparable to the P2. It just has a similar set of tools, excluding the P2's awl and medium flat driver. The Wingman does not have an awl or medium flat driver.
If somebody wants a basic tool and wants a Leatherman, the Wingman is still is a great option.
Photos.
Blade:
I like the shape of the P2 blade better, and it is a bit longer.
(https://i.imgur.com/9xs40za.jpg)
Scissor:
I have always felt the Wingman scissors were flimsy and akward to use. The Free scissors aren't as "big"(which isn't a great single-measure of usefulness), but they are leagues above the Wingman scissors in quality. Much better steel stock, rigidity, and cut.
(https://i.imgur.com/yYChSlL.jpg)
Big drivers:
The phillips is much better in form than the Wingman, and the P2 also has a bottle opener on the phillips. The blade stock, while the P2's looks much thicker than the Wingman phillips, is the same thickness. The better formed tip makes a huge difference though.
The flat driver tip on the Wingman is too thick to be useful, but makes a decent pry tool. The P2 flat driver steel stock is 0.8mm thicker than the steel stock on the Wingman. The P2 tip is more of a useful size and has a sharpened edge for miscellaneous applications. Also the P2 big-flat can be used as a pry tool without worrying too much.
(https://i.imgur.com/mJ8tSae.jpg)
File:
The Wingman file is wider, but is only a single cut on one side. The P2 has a single cut on one side and a cross-cut on the other side. Both are tipped with a medium/small-ish flat driver.
(https://i.imgur.com/TRnHZr1.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3bXtfGs.jpg)
Can opener:
The P2 uses a SAK-style quarter-circle opener, while the Wingman uses the classic LM can opener with wire stripper. The P2 has a smaller wire stripper on the medium long-flat driver.
(https://i.imgur.com/FCVQnkl.jpg)
Pliers:
The P2 has a beautifully machined pliers head, but the bolt-grip area is similar to the Wave's(but smaller) and much smaller than the Wingman's. Note: Wingman pliers are spring loaded and are infamous for having slop. The P2, like the Wave, has no slop in the pliers head.
(https://i.imgur.com/kfDHEER.jpg)
Anyway, the point is this:
If you have an issue with paying $119 for an urban type MT that only offers massively superior fit & finish/action/style/comfort over the Wingman, but doesn't really add any true practical function(aside from the long medium flat driver and awl/micro driver that the P2 has), then the Wingman is still a good option. :)
My choice of the two would be the P2. Mostly, because I really like the fit & finish, mechanism, action, and style. The fit & finish are above the SwissTool Spirit on the totem pole. The P2 is 100% made in the US, while the Wingman uses a portion of outsourced parts, which isn't important to everyone, but some of us think it is awesome the P2 is full-on US made. The P2 is MASSIVELY more comfortable to use. The P2 has all-locking implements that can be accessed ALL from the outside of the tool WITH JUST ONE HAND. The only other full-OHO is the OHT from LM, but that tool isn't practical for pocket carry.
I'll do another quick write-up with the P4 tomorrow(if it comes) and Wave, since their toolsets are similar. The P2 toolset is similar to the Wingman.
Post by: Blackbeard on April 25, 2019, 06:56:30 AM
Post by: gilson65 on April 25, 2019, 07:06:03 AM
good write up GLBM, have you used it on anything yet? Also, do you feel those little tabs on the handle at all(In plier mode)?
Those little tabs don’t effect me on the p2 To me they are there to stop handle movement especially when using the screwdriver’s
Post by: Blackbeard on April 25, 2019, 07:12:06 AM
Those little tabs don’t effect me on the p2 To me they are there to stop handle movement especially when using the screwdriver’s
That's cool, I had gotten a Rev very cheap a few months ago on clearance from walmart, and it has a very sharp hot spot on it that could easily slice you if your'e not careful, I can't afford this tool ATM but definitely want one.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 25, 2019, 07:13:08 AM
good write up GLBM, have you used it on anything yet? Also, do you feel those little tabs on the handle at all(In plier mode)?Thanks, Blackbeard! :cheers:
I'm taking it to work tomorrow to see how the magnets do around steel wool dust. I'm already carrying the Surge for the challenge, but will add the P2 to the belt for a day and try it out on some stuff. We'll see how it goes. :)
I don't feel the little alignment tabs at all. I also assumed the lock tab recesses would be somewhat uncomfortable, but gripping larger stuff isn't uncomfortable at all. Not quite as comfortable as the Wave handles during use, but quite good. Feels on par with the Vic Spirit in strong grip at the same open width.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 25, 2019, 07:14:31 AM
That's cool, I had gotten a Rev very cheap a few months ago on clearance from walmart, and it has a very sharp hot spot on it that could easily slice you if your'e not careful, I can't afford this tool ATM but definitely want one.The P2 is a really nice piece of tool. Expensive yes, but I can see why, after playing with one. :multi:
Post by: Blackbeard on April 25, 2019, 07:17:58 AM
Post by: Blackbeard on April 25, 2019, 07:27:31 AM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46777423645_6f748f1e3a_z.jpg)
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 25, 2019, 07:33:00 AM
Post by: Blackbeard on April 25, 2019, 07:38:55 AM
I mght try a small round file, but its very small, maybe the lansky blade medic tapered file would work, i'm just don't want to ruin that...even though I can't sharpen worth a lick with it.
Post by: McStitchy on April 25, 2019, 07:56:24 AM
OK. Did some comparisons to what I consider the closest competitor from LM for the LM Free P2. AND IT AIN'T THE WAVE. :D
IT IS THE................WAIT FOR IT.................THE WINGMAN! :woohoo:
So, to start, let me be clear. The Wingman is in no way, shape, quality-wise or aesthetically comparable to the P2. It just has a similar set of tools, excluding the P2's awl and medium flat driver. The Wingman does not have an awl or medium flat driver.
If somebody wants a basic tool and wants a Leatherman, the Wingman is still is a great option.
Photos.
Blade:
I like the shape of the P2 blade better, and it is a bit longer.
(https://i.imgur.com/9xs40za.jpg)
Scissor:
I have always felt the Wingman scissors were flimsy and akward to use. The Free scissors aren't as "big"(which isn't a great single-measure of usefulness), but they are leagues above the Wingman scissors in quality. Much better steel stock, rigidity, and cut.
(https://i.imgur.com/yYChSlL.jpg)
Big drivers:
The phillips is much better in form than the Wingman, and the P2 also has a bottle opener on the phillips. The blade stock, while the P2's looks much thicker than the Wingman phillips, is the same thickness. The better formed tip makes a huge difference though.
The flat driver tip on the Wingman is too thick to be useful, but makes a decent pry tool. The P2 flat driver steel stock is 0.8mm thicker than the steel stock on the Wingman. The P2 tip is more of a useful size and has a sharpened edge for miscellaneous applications. Also the P2 big-flat can be used as a pry tool without worrying too much.
(https://i.imgur.com/mJ8tSae.jpg)
File:
The Wingman file is wider, but is only a single cut on one side. The P2 has a single cut on one side and a cross-cut on the other side. Both are tipped with a medium/small-ish flat driver.
(https://i.imgur.com/TRnHZr1.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3bXtfGs.jpg)
Can opener:
The P2 uses a SAK-style quarter-circle opener, while the Wingman uses the classic LM can opener with wire stripper. The P2 has a smaller wire stripper on the medium long-flat driver.
(https://i.imgur.com/FCVQnkl.jpg)
Pliers:
The P2 has a beautifully machined pliers head, but the bolt-grip area is similar to the Wave's(but smaller) and much smaller than the Wingman's. Note: Wingman pliers are spring loaded and are infamous for having slop. The P2, like the Wave, has no slop in the pliers head.
(https://i.imgur.com/kfDHEER.jpg)
Anyway, the point is this:
If you have an issue with paying $119 for an urban type MT that only offers massively superior fit & finish/action/style/comfort over the Wingman, but doesn't really add any true practical function(aside from the long medium flat driver and awl/micro driver that the P2 has), then the Wingman is still a good option. :)
My choice of the two would be the P2. Mostly, because I really like the fit & finish, mechanism, action, and style. The fit & finish are above the SwissTool Spirit on the totem pole. The P2 is 100% made in the US, while the Wingman uses a portion of outsourced parts, which isn't important to everyone, but some of us think it is awesome the P2 is full-on US made. The P2 is MASSIVELY more comfortable to use. The P2 has all-locking implements that can be accessed ALL from the outside of the tool WITH JUST ONE HAND. The only other full-OHO is the OHT from LM, but that tool isn't practical for pocket carry.
I'll do another quick write-up with the P4 tomorrow(if it comes) and Wave, since their toolsets are similar. The P2 toolset is similar to the Wingman.
Great comparison and writeup gerleatherberman. Thank you :tu:
Looking forward to the P2/Wave one...
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 25, 2019, 08:00:34 AM
I think I paid $9, so it's hard to complain :rofl:I take for granted the access I have to so many tools at home and work. :facepalm:
I mght try a small round file, but its very small, maybe the lansky blade medic tapered file would work, i'm just don't want to ruin that...even though I can't sharpen worth a lick with it.
I use a $10 set of small diamond coated needle files I bought at harbor freight. Great files for hard metal. :)
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 25, 2019, 08:03:04 AM
Great comparison and writeup gerleatherberman. Thank you :tu:You're welcome and thank you, Matt! :cheers:
Looking forward to the P2/Wave one...
Post by: Dutch_Tooler on April 25, 2019, 10:28:47 AM
Hmmm... these threads have got me thinking... and as I'm about to head stateside for a trip, I might even follow up on it. Meanwhile I have a few comments on what I learned and various thoughts, mainly from the videos posted...
One thing about the Free P2/P4 which I haven't seen covered in here (or maybe I've simply missed it) is the tool locking system, more specifically that the distance between tang locking surface and the pivot seems to be greater on the Free than on the Surge/Wave/Rebar/ST, and therefore, together with the increased lock travel, in theory should provide for (far) greater lock strength, in addition to the reported precision and lock positivity. As an engineer, that interests me... the question arises why this was done; have there been worrisome failures in this area on older tools? And the fact that the tang's longer read ends double as thumb studs for deployment is a nice (side?) effect.
In any case the modified tang shape will play havoc with any modding ambitions. It will be difficult to adapt older tools to fit in the P2/P4... which is a pity, since I'm apparently not alone in missing a full length file (preferably diamond and with a metal saw edge) or t-shank holder, a bit exchanger, and one or two other nice things. Can anyone confirm what I seem to have read, that these might be part of possible future planning?
I also noticed a difference between the P2 and the P4 in the plier heads - the locking lugs on the former are shorter on one side, on account of the missing tool layer, but otherwise they seem identical (is that right?). AimlessWanderer noted this as a possible future trouble spot and I dare say this would be even worse on the P2.
The pocket clip seems nice...
Did anyone's debit/credit cards get wiped by the magnets yet? >:D
One thing though... of course, the blades being OHO and locking, the P2/P4 will be illegal for street carry in many European countries including Germany, on top of EU pricing putting off many potential buyers.
Post by: Wspeed on April 25, 2019, 12:45:07 PM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 25, 2019, 12:51:10 PM
Thanks to all for the enlightening experience reports and comparisons, also in the other thread :tu:
Hmmm... these threads have got me thinking... and as I'm about to head stateside for a trip, I might even follow up on it. Meanwhile I have a few comments on what I learned and various thoughts, mainly from the videos posted...
One thing about the Free P2/P4 which I haven't seen covered in here (or maybe I've simply missed it) is the tool locking system, more specifically that the distance between tang locking surface and the pivot seems to be greater on the Free than on the Surge/Wave/Rebar/ST, and therefore, together with the increased lock travel, in theory should provide for (far) greater lock strength, in addition to the reported precision and lock positivity. As an engineer, that interests me... the question arises why this was done; have there been worrisome failures in this area on older tools? And the fact that the tang's longer read ends double as thumb studs for deployment is a nice (side?) effect.
In any case the modified tang shape will play havoc with any modding ambitions. It will be difficult to adapt older tools to fit in the P2/P4... which is a pity, since I'm apparently not alone in missing a full length file (preferably diamond and with a metal saw edge) or t-shank holder, a bit exchanger, and one or two other nice things. Can anyone confirm what I seem to have read, that these might be part of possible future planning?
I also noticed a difference between the P2 and the P4 in the plier heads - the locking lugs on the former are shorter on one side, on account of the missing tool layer, but otherwise they seem identical (is that right?). AimlessWanderer noted this as a possible future trouble spot and I dare say this would be even worse on the P2.
The pocket clip seems nice...
Did anyone's debit/credit cards get wiped by the magnets yet? >:D
One thing though... of course, the blades being OHO and locking, the P2/P4 will be illegal for street carry in many European countries including Germany, on top of EU pricing putting off many potential buyers.
I think the lock design was secondary, and designed to accommodate the extended tangs for the one handed access. I haven't noticed anywhere, or paid attention to, the pivot point for the lock lever (does it share the tool pivot?) but otherwise the locks look good. I completely agree that their location adds strength to the lock up over a standard backlock type. The actual lock latching mechanism does look like a genuine improvement to me, especially as the mechanism extends to the blades, saw and scissors. instead of having to use liner locks.
Other people have mentioned the blade shape too, and I too like the drop point shape on the plain edge and combo blades. The serrated blade seems a bit of an odd duck though.
If the elastomer bushes (there's a term for these, I've used them before in machinery design many years ago, but I can't remember what they're called) are resistant to workshop chemicals, I think that could be a very reliable engagement mechanism long term. There may be some wear on the lugs and notches to soften the mechanism over time, but there seem to be enough travel to still be effective, barring any fractures as I mentioned before.
I also like the way that they have maximised the cutting surface on the file. All too often, a cut file will not make full use of the available surface. While diminutive, at least they have ensured that the tool has as much usable area as possible. But have they made the driver as hard as a file, or the file tempered to driver hardness...?
So, for me, there is a lot to like in the new design approaches, but sadly there's enough that I don't like to still leave me with a negative view overall, even if the tool was more affordable.
Post by: Syncop8r on April 25, 2019, 01:28:48 PM
Show content
A tool I am imagining that is like the P4 but with more Surgeous small tools. :dd:
Post by: powernoodle on April 25, 2019, 02:45:17 PM
[The P2] doesn't really add any true practical function
For me, this is the salient point, i.e., distinguishing between actual utility and subjective feel-goodism. We tend to conflate the two. Sebenza knife guys, for example, - me included - often act like the high manufacturing quality and price of a Sebenza must make it slice an apple better. Which really is far from true. Utility is one thing, and feeling good is quite another. A Delica at 1/5 the price is actually a better slicer.
Subject to getting my hands on one, my view of the P2/P4 is that they probably don't do anything functionally better than the long lineage of Leatherman products going way back. Generally speaking, pliers are pliers and a knife is a knife. But being new and cool and magnetic, we still want a new toy for the feel-good and fun factor. As I and others have said, the MSRP is the sticking point. A P4 is no longer fun at $139.95. For me, anyway.
(https://i.imgur.com/P6WBalS.jpg)
Sebenza: costs more but cuts the same.
Post by: Mechanickal on April 25, 2019, 02:53:54 PM
A P4 is no longer fun at $139.95. For me, anyway.
That has been my case since the beginning.
The P4 is available here at €199.99, which roughly translates in $225.
I really wonder if anyone so highly positive about the tool still thinks "it's worth it's money" from where I'm standing.
$139 will get you a Wave here.
Post by: Aloha on April 25, 2019, 03:25:09 PM
Looking at the Free Series and looking back at my early comments I was initially struck with how similar looking the tools looked to the Wingman/SideKick. Seems this is the case. While not exact parts, they are similar-ish. For me personally, for what I use my MT for, the way I have gone thru my progression of MTs, I am still feeling like the current tools I have are best for me. These tools are neat and sure look great. They just dont seem to bring enough to the table for me.
I have more or less stopped thinking how the LM rep seemed to attack the Wave when demonstrating the Free series. I can see how someone who was looking for a easy to use, easy to access, well made ( according to y'all ) USA tool then the Free series is the way to go ( price aside for some ). It very well may be the only tool one needs if they only wanted ONE MT.
Price wise, I am not sure exactly how I feel. My initial thought was, its spendy. I also thought considering all of y'alls comments on QC that I am super happy for that. I also really like all OHO and the ease of deploying the tools. I am not attacking the Spirit or Swisstool................... if you get those a little dirty they can be a difficult to open. With the Free it seems like a really good system so far. Clumping being sold as a feature got a giggle from some but I can now see this being a feature specific to this series. GLBM also said IIFC that the tools can be individually opened with no clumping.
Back to price. I cannot see how this tool can be any less :think:. With the price of all LM tools seeing a hike, this tool couldn't have hit the market for less than a Ben Franklin. The discussions have been really good on both the optimistic and questioning sides. This is what we do Y'ALL, we go hard when a tool hits the market. MTO aint no joke, we don't play ;). Remember when the Signal was announced?
Anyway, glad this tool is in the hands of MTO members and thank you all for such a lively conversation.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 25, 2019, 03:33:28 PM
Thanks for the comparison GLBM. So, the tools are Wingman-ish? My Wingman/SideKick served me well and I was a happy camper when I got them. They were an upgrade from a cheap MT that actually also served me very well. I was less concerned about fit and finish and needed a tool that performed. I then got a Wave. It was and is a game changer for me. Then I got the Surge and it changed the game further. While I've used other MTs and like other MTs those bit holders and blade exchangers for me are game changers that I dont want to be without. OHO is also a good thing for me as well as diamond file and scissors.Excellent post, Aloha. :iagree:
Looking at the Free Series and looking back at my early comments I was initially struck with how similar looking the tools looked to the Wingman/SideKick. Seems this is the case. While not exact parts, they are similar-ish. For me personally, for what I use my MT for, the way I have gone thru my progression of MTs, I am still feeling like the current tools I have are best for me. These tools are neat and sure look great. They just dont seem to bring enough to the table for me.
I have more or less stopped thinking how the LM rep seemed to attack the Wave when demonstrating the Free series. I can see how someone who was looking for a easy to use, easy to access, well made ( according to y'all ) USA tool then the Free series is the way to go ( price aside for some ). It very well may be the only tool one needs if they only wanted ONE MT.
Price wise, I am not sure exactly how I feel. My initial thought was, its spendy. I also thought considering all of y'alls comments on QC that I am super happy for that. I also really like all OHO and the ease of deploying the tools. I am not attacking the Spirit or Swisstool................... if you get those a little dirty they can be a difficult to open. With the Free it seems like a really good system so far. Clumping being sold as a feature got a giggle from some but I can now see this being a feature specific to this series. GLBM also said IIFC that the tools can be individually opened with no clumping.
Back to price. I cannot see how this tool can be any less :think:. With the price of all LM tools seeing a hike, this tool couldn't have hit the market for less than a Ben Franklin. The discussions have been really good on both the optimistic and questioning sides. This is what we do Y'ALL, we go hard when a tool hits the market. MTO aint no joke, we don't play ;). Remember when the Signal was announced?
Anyway, glad this tool is in the hands of MTO members and thank you all for such a lively conversation.
Post by: Aloha on April 25, 2019, 03:36:31 PM
Post by: Monrogue on April 25, 2019, 03:46:44 PM
Thanks. I do really like the looks of the tools and the features. I'm super happy those of you who got one or both are stoked about them.
It’s funny you mentioned the Signal Aloha. I was going to bring that up the other day considering how controversial that tool’s release thread was ;)
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 25, 2019, 03:49:14 PM
Excellent post, Aloha. :iagree:
:iagree:
Post by: sawman on April 25, 2019, 03:52:26 PM
Post by: SirVicaLot on April 25, 2019, 04:05:15 PM
One thing though... of course, the blades being OHO and locking, the P2/P4 will be illegal for street carry in many European countries including Germany, on top of EU pricing putting off many potential buyers.
This is something that really surprises me too. Most new LM tool have that issue and yet they do not seem to be bothered by it. Is LM‘s European market just not big enough so they don‘t see the need to do something about it?
Post by: gregpost on April 25, 2019, 04:10:08 PM
This is something that really surprises me too. Most new LM tool have that issue and yet they do not seem to be bothered by it. Is LM‘s European market just not big enough so they don‘t see the need to do something about it?
The U.S. market is still huge. I think Leatherman worries about America first and everything else comes second. I'm sure Leatherman could accommodate an importer looking for a different configuration, if the order was substantial.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 25, 2019, 04:11:24 PM
MTO aint no joke, we don't play ;). Remember when the Signal was announced?
Yes, I got sniped at for sharing my thoughts on that too :rofl: My opinions didn't change when I got to handle one either. I seem to have gotten quite good at identifying what will be good and bad about a tool for me, from just looking at pics, and it's rare for me to have a change of opinion once the tool is in hand. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't like me commenting off pictures only, even though I predominantly just reinforce my opinions by handling it at a later time.
Post by: gregpost on April 25, 2019, 04:20:15 PM
Yes, I got sniped at for sharing my thoughts on that too :rofl: My opinions didn't change when I got to handle one either. I seem to have gotten quite good at identifying what will be good and bad about a tool for me, from just looking at pics, and it's rare for me to have a change of opinion once the tool is in hand. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't like me commenting off pictures only, even though I predominantly just reinforce my opinions by handling it at a later time.
Confirmation bias perhaps?
I try everything I can get my hands on these days because I have been pleasantly surprised by certain multitools(especially Leatherman) and disappointed in others I thought I would like.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 25, 2019, 04:28:54 PM
Confirmation bias perhaps?
I try everything I can get my hands on these days because I have been pleasantly surprised by certain multitools(especially Leatherman) and disappointed in others I thought I would like.
I don't think so, because if I have a concern about a tool, I want to be proven wrong. I want to feel reassured that the aspect is at least less of a concern than I thought it might be. I don't WANT things to not suit me, or to annoy or disappoint me. Sometimes it's slightly better, sometimes slightly worse. For example, the LM OHT felt even larger in hand than I expected, but that also meant the blades didn't seem quite so diminutive, even though they still seemed disproportionate to the tool.
Post by: gadgetman7 on April 25, 2019, 04:31:37 PM
I still can’t figure out why they left the bit driver out. From my perspective this is a huge oversight. I wonder who made that decision.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: gregpost on April 25, 2019, 04:34:47 PM
I don't think so, because if I have a concern about a tool, I want to be proven wrong. I want to feel reassured that the aspect is at least less of a concern than I thought it might be. I don't WANT things to not suit me, or to annoy or disappoint me. Sometimes it's slightly better, sometimes slightly worse. For example, the LM OHT felt even larger in hand than I expected, but that also meant the blades didn't seem quite so diminutive, even though they still seemed disproportionate to the tool.
The LM OHT is one that when I handled seemed like a solution in search of a problem and I did not like it.
Something I've been surprised by are the 85mm Wenger style Saks made by Victorinox. On paper they don't seem to offer much advantage over the 91mm models, which are more feature rich, cheaper, offer more colors, and are actually thinner because of the scales. But handling and using the evogrip, I now prefer them to the 91mm models.
Post by: gregpost on April 25, 2019, 04:39:47 PM
I’m carrying a borrowed P2 today. The lack of a bit driver may make these tools a nonstarter for me. I didn’t realize how much I used the bits when I’m actively working on something.
I still can’t figure out why they left the bit driver out. From my perspective this is a huge oversight. I wonder who made that decision.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I think the Leatherman bit system isn't that great anyways, not a great loss to me. I think some people that use them or already bought into the system are upset it's not backwards compatible but this is one of the things that holds multitool design back. If everything is always backwards compatible how can you do something that is really new.
Post by: gadgetman7 on April 25, 2019, 05:17:47 PM
I think the Leatherman bit system isn't that great anyways, not a great loss to me. I think some people that use them or already bought into the system are upset it's not backwards compatible but this is one of the things that holds multitool design back. If everything is always backwards compatible how can you do something that is really new.
I don’t care if it’s backwards compatible - I just want to be able to use some type of bits. A 1/4” driver would be even better.
Honestly, Philips and flat head drivers are very old school, not innovative.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 25, 2019, 05:21:39 PM
The LM OHT is one that when I handled seemed like a solution in search of a problem and I did not like it.
Something I've been surprised by are the 85mm Wenger style Saks made by Victorinox. On paper they don't seem to offer much advantage over the 91mm models, which are more feature rich, cheaper, offer more colors, and are actually thinner because of the scales. But handling and using the evogrip, I now prefer them to the 91mm models.
The Wenger Traveler remains a favourite of mine. I have offloaded many of mine, but still have four left. I really like the 84mm/85mm size, and if all the tool sets of the 91mm line was available on the 84/85mm knives, I would be very happy indeed.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 25, 2019, 05:22:23 PM
I'll look this evening and see if I have a slip over adapter that will kind of fit the P2 phillips. :)
Post by: JustinCase on April 25, 2019, 06:41:14 PM
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6484/GSzKVW.jpg) (https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8365/pZKbyw.jpg)
Post by: Wspeed on April 25, 2019, 06:48:48 PM
Post by: ReamerPunch on April 25, 2019, 06:52:57 PM
The only thing I can say is that the tool adapter fits and works perfect :)
:clap:
Bring it back, Leatherman! :like:
Post by: ReamerPunch on April 25, 2019, 06:57:22 PM
Gerber had one for a thin tool, for the Suspension I think. Does it fit any P4 implements? It must fit on something.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 25, 2019, 07:00:45 PM
Does the Removable Bit Adapter/Ganzo/Gerber adapter fit on any P4 tools? :think:
Gerber had one for a thin tool, for the Suspension I think. Does it fit any P4 implements? It must fit on something.
I doubt the one for the Diesel would fit. The Phillips is probably a fair bit thinner than the one on the Free
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 25, 2019, 07:02:33 PM
The only thing I can say is that the tool adapter fits and works perfect :)Thank you SO much for trying that! :salute:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6484/GSzKVW.jpg) (https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8365/pZKbyw.jpg)
I now predict the tool adapters will sky rocket in price. :rofl:
Post by: Buzzbait on April 25, 2019, 07:14:52 PM
My worst issue is probably totally unwarranted, but it's the elastomer springs. I love how my ancient Leatherman PST is still as good today as it was almost 20 years ago. When I think of Leatherman, I think of tools that last for life. But what happens 10 years from now, when an elastomer spring snaps, and the Free is already 5 years extinct? Will there be replacements parts available? Will the springs be sold separately? I really hate the idea of rubber parts being used on a tool this expensive. It reminds me of my old Casio G-Shock collection, a box full of watches with dried and crumbling bezels, and no fresh replacements produced.
With that said, I'm holding out for the T4. It looks outstandingly useful, even with rubber bands.
Post by: JustinCase on April 25, 2019, 07:22:03 PM
Thank you SO much for trying that! :salute:
I now predict the tool adapters will sky rocket in price. :rofl:
The Leatherman universal tool adapter (2nd version) made for the Wave, Charge, Surge, is the one in my picture and it does fit perfect, not sure about the 1st generation known as the "standard/original version" with the two bumps, will fit and work as well ::)
Post by: McStitchy on April 25, 2019, 08:08:14 PM
The Leatherman universal tool adapter (2nd version) made for the Wave, Charge, Surge, is the one in my picture and it does fit perfect, not sure about the 1st generation known as the "standard/original version" with the two bumps, will fit and work as well ::)
But it must be cumbersome to use as the handles are not staying closed. The magnets need to engage for that :dunno:
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 25, 2019, 08:31:52 PM
Overall, I like what I'm seeing from the Free series so far. The quality seems to be there. For an American made tool, I don't think the price is too unreasonable.The elastomer things are more like partial bushings from what I understand. And I think the tool may still work if they go bad. It just won't have that satisfying click in. I am not 100% sure, so I'll do some investigating soon. The sales people equate the elastomer to motor mount bushings, not bands. But, again, I'll need to dig around and look mine over to check. I may even take one of the plier pivots apart to take photos. :)
My worst issue is probably totally unwarranted, but it's the elastomer springs. I love how my ancient Leatherman PST is still as good today as it was almost 20 years ago. When I think of Leatherman, I think of tools that last for life. But what happens 10 years from now, when an elastomer spring snaps, and the Free is already 5 years extinct? Will there be replacements parts available? Will the springs be sold separately? I really hate the idea of rubber parts being used on a tool this expensive. It reminds me of my old Casio G-Shock collection, a box full of watches with dried and crumbling bezels, and no fresh replacements produced.
With that said, I'm holding out for the T4. It looks outstandingly useful, even with rubber bands.
Post by: McStitchy on April 25, 2019, 08:34:13 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 25, 2019, 08:41:40 PM
Would those elastomer bushings stiffen up at low temperatures? :think:Hard to tell, but I could stick the P2 in my refrigerator tonight and see.
Please remind me to do that if I forget. :)
Post by: Wspeed on April 25, 2019, 08:44:55 PM
Could they melt :dunno:
Post by: McStitchy on April 25, 2019, 08:46:46 PM
Hard to tell, but I could stick the P2 in my refrigerator tonight and see.
Please remind me to do that if I forget. :)
That's commitment... good idea !
I might sleep already when it's night on your end of the pond though :dunno:
Post by: McStitchy on April 25, 2019, 08:47:21 PM
What are the elastomer bushings like with hot temperatures :think:
Could they melt :dunno:
... do the refrigerator test first :pok:
Post by: Wspeed on April 25, 2019, 08:48:48 PM
... do the refrigerator test first :pok::rofl: I didn’t mean that you should test it
I just want to know if they would melt :think: :tu:
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 25, 2019, 08:53:16 PM
What are the elastomer bushings like with hot temperatures :think:
Could they melt :dunno:
Probably only at temps that would wreck the temper on tools. You shouldn't have to worry about sunny days :D
Post by: Wspeed on April 25, 2019, 08:54:23 PM
Post by: Buzzbait on April 25, 2019, 09:23:41 PM
Hard to tell, but I could stick the P2 in my refrigerator tonight and see.
Please remind me to do that if I forget. :)
How would those elastomer bushings hold up to laser shark attacks?
(https://i.imgur.com/zIUZS5Vl.jpg)
Post by: Mechanickal on April 25, 2019, 09:57:26 PM
Like forming a single line so the driver is as centred as it can be?
I always use drivers on multis that way.
Post by: Syncop8r on April 25, 2019, 09:58:38 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 25, 2019, 10:13:00 PM
Can the drivers be used when opening the handles half way?I also do this daily. The P series is not good for making an inline drive. The pliers are too free and need to be held into the handle end while turning. While it is still doable in a pinch, it won't be like what we do with our normal LMs, SwissTools, etc.
Like forming a single line so the driver is as centred as it can be?
I always use drivers on multis that way.
I love my Surge for being an amazing inline driver and L-handle. I just got done driving some old flat screws like that with the big flat driver on my Surge.
The Free is not a heavy duty tool as far as the drivers are concerned .
Probably only at temps that would wreck the temper on tools. You shouldn't have to worry about sunny days :DThanks for the answer, AW! :salute:
How would those elastomer bushings hold up to laser shark attacks?Yes. :whistle:
(https://i.imgur.com/zIUZS5Vl.jpg)
Post by: kottskrapa on April 26, 2019, 12:02:12 AM
So maybe 2.5D?
Anyhow, I haven't played with one and being in Europe I won't be doing it for a while because of release dates and price for this first Gen.
I'm happy because of the awl and and dedicated drivers. The first Gen wave and victorinox spirit are my favorites and this goes somewhere in between after the videos I have seen I guess
Time will tell but I just wanted to say something after reading so much
[It's not failure if you learn something from it]
Post by: gustophersmob on April 26, 2019, 12:59:45 AM
The elastomer things are more like partial bushings from what I understand. And I think the tool may still work if they go bad. It just won't have that satisfying click in. I am not 100% sure, so I'll do some investigating soon. The sales people equate the elastomer to motor mount bushings, not bands. But, again, I'll need to dig around and look mine over to check. I may even take one of the plier pivots apart to take photos. :)
I was just watching this video, and around the 12:10 mark it shows really well how the plier tabs click in. I finally understand what the elastomer bushings are for. I think this is the video you may have skipped because he doesn’t know which knife is which on the wave.
After seeing this, I’m thinking it may work in a pinch if the bushing somehow fail, but it would be like using one of the blades or tools with a broken lock. It would probably be a hassle and far from ideal.
https://youtu.be/1h_pn6EpWpQ
It’s hard to tell, but this does make me think all the plier load would be transferred to the handles only through those 4 lugs. I think Al’s concern about those breaking may be well founded. Hopefully not, but time will tell.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 26, 2019, 01:19:47 AM
What are the elastomer bushings like with hot temperatures :think:
Could they melt :dunno:
Here's a chart I found online of working temperature ranges for elastomer seals. I'd suggest the working range in this application would be similar. While we don't know which compound it is made of, I would guess EPDM would give you a sensible temp range.
Even if they were natural rubber (which they won't be), it would be fine for the vast majority of tool users' environments
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 26, 2019, 03:35:13 AM
I was just watching this video, and around the 12:10 mark it shows really well how the plier tabs click in. I finally understand what the elastomer bushings are for. I think this is the video you may have skipped because he doesn’t know which knife is which on the wave.I know, it is nuts to stop watching a video over Wave knives. :rofl:
After seeing this, I’m thinking it may work in a pinch if the bushing somehow fail, but it would be like using one of the blades or tools with a broken lock. It would probably be a hassle and far from ideal.
https://youtu.be/1h_pn6EpWpQ
It’s hard to tell, but this does make me think all the plier load would be transferred to the handles only through those 4 lugs. I think Al’s concern about those breaking may be well founded. Hopefully not, but time will tell.
Thank you for the input and information, gustophersmob. :salute:
On the plus side, I will be on the lookout for a cord of the same thickness material for backups. :)
Here's a chart I found online of working temperature ranges for elastomer seals. I'd suggest the working range in this application would be similar. While we don't know which compound it is made of, I would guess EPDM would give you a sensible temp range.Thanks, AW! :salute:
Even if they were natural rubber (which they won't be), it would be fine for the vast majority of tool users' environments
Excellent information. I feel even better about the elastomer stuff now. But, I am going to go pop the P2 in the fridge and will report back in a while. Experiment mostly for fun. :D
I did a full-strength squeeze test on the P2 and P4 on bamboo skewers. Both have an exceedingly solid feel and almost no flex. Notably less flex than a SwissTool/Spirit, or PowerLock. Similar flex to the Wave, ST300, and MP600.
I am playing with the P4 right now and will be writing more about it later. :)
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 26, 2019, 06:02:13 AM
Yes, I painted the part of the Wave file that shows when closed. Think making lists is OCD? hehe :whistle:
Any questions, just let me know. :)
Scissors:
(https://i.imgur.com/FzeGN8C.jpg)
Big flat drivers. The P series big-flat doubles as a package opener/pry bar. The Spirit big-flat double as a pry bar/wire bender. Wave is a just a big flat and can be used for medium MT prying duties like opening rusty paint cans.
(https://i.imgur.com/NVuB3UK.jpg)
Side view of steel stock used and profile.
(https://i.imgur.com/gCS46Ze.jpg)
P series small flat doubles as an awl/sewing thingy. The Spirit has a small-ish dedicated flat-driver and actual pointy awl without sewing eye. Wave has reversible micro-phillips and flat-driver exchanger, but no awl to speak of.
(https://i.imgur.com/wPV6Ic7.jpg)
Phillips drivers profile shot. The Spirit and P series phillips are similar in profile, but the P phillips would be better for #2 phillips and possible larger screw heads. Of course the Wave has the awesome bit exchanger, which includes from the factory a #2 phillips/medium flat combo bit.
(https://i.imgur.com/0xqcPqu.jpg)
Can openers. P series went with a semi-circle for the new line. No extra use for the can opener on the P series. The Spirit has a medium-ish flat driver on the tip. The Wave can opener has a nice wire stripper integrated.
(https://i.imgur.com/qnPY7WY.jpg)
Serrated blades. I used my butter-blade Spirit version for the shot.
(https://i.imgur.com/T9Ksfsz.jpg)
Plain edge blades. I used my regular blade Spirit version for this shot.
(https://i.imgur.com/SBIZfJF.jpg)
Wood Saws. All tapered and sharp as smurf. The P4 saw is thick and stout feeling. The Spirit saw is thin and would jam less easily, but be a little weaker. The Wave saw is in between the two.
(https://i.imgur.com/WSxPl0M.jpg)
FILES. O.k. Wave and Spirit win this one HANDS DOWN. I won't go into too much detail, but all of them are nicely cut/made(with the Spirit and Free files being precision cut). The P2/P4 file is very short with a cross-cut side and single-cut side. The Spirit has a cross-cut on each side with very slightly different aggressiveness(nearly redundant). Wave has a cross-cut side and diamond-coated side(diamond coated is very nice for fine finishing file-work.
(https://i.imgur.com/fZL584i.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/7NihIGG.jpg)
Combo tools. The previously pictured P series flat driver is also a package opener. The Spirit has a tool dedicated to being a chiselly-thingie and wire-stripper. Spirit wins this one hands-down. Wish LM had done more of the circle grinding edges on the P series.
(https://i.imgur.com/9SrYpEY.jpg)
Pliers. Free series has a beefy pivot, but small bolt-area. Spirit has a small bolt area, but has more room in the bolt area, because the cutters are ridiculously small compared to modern tools. P4 and Wave+ have replaceable cutter blades, which I really like. Victorinox needs to follow suit with replaceable cutters AND stop using rivets on the SwissTools. I like screws I can tighten/loosen/service the tool with.
(https://i.imgur.com/8VoGWB6.jpg)
P2, P4, Spirit, Wave, and Charge TTi in a row.
(https://i.imgur.com/3XXWB1h.jpg)
P2 and P4 side-by side shots.
(https://i.imgur.com/F3RtwW7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eF9IKOd.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/xDv8J2a.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/D2Iy9a4.jpg)
Post by: Aloha on April 26, 2019, 06:28:33 AM
Post by: Monrogue on April 26, 2019, 07:06:18 AM
Great shots GLBM. :like:
+1
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 26, 2019, 07:18:44 AM
Post by: McStitchy on April 26, 2019, 08:47:42 AM
I know, it is nuts to stop watching a video over Wave knives. :rofl:
Thank you for the input and information, gustophersmob. :salute:
On the plus side, I will be on the lookout for a cord of the same thickness material for backups. :)
Thanks, AW! :salute:
Excellent information. I feel even better about the elastomer stuff now. But, I am going to go pop the P2 in the fridge and will report back in a while. Experiment mostly for fun. :D
I did a full-strength squeeze test on the P2 and P4 on bamboo skewers. Both have an exceedingly solid feel and almost no flex. Notably less flex than a SwissTool/Spirit, or PowerLock. Similar flex to the Wave, ST300, and MP600.
I am playing with the P4 right now and will be writing more about it later. :)
:tu:
Post by: McStitchy on April 26, 2019, 08:55:06 AM
+1
+ another one
Post by: Poncho65 on April 26, 2019, 12:25:26 PM
Post by: Dutch_Tooler on April 26, 2019, 12:35:01 PM
:iagree:
Question: is the lock pivot also the tool pivot? Looks like, right?
The file... well... it's very short. Trade-off for having full length outside scissors but no blade exchanger (à la Surge) I suppose...
Which makes me imagine that a P6 could have double-width outside slots for double the no. of outside tools at least on one side (looking at the progression P2->P4) and could therefore sport a full length file, which vacates an internal slot for a bit exchanger :dd:, and then we'll have a P8 having this on both sides - think of the tools one could put in that :drool:!
Post by: Wspeed on April 26, 2019, 12:46:13 PM
Excellent pics GLBM :like: :tu:
Post by: SteveC on April 26, 2019, 02:03:43 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 26, 2019, 02:57:43 PM
:tu:Thank you, Matt! :cheers:
More great info in here of the Free :like: and great comparison/close up pics, glbm :like:Thank you, Poncho! :cheers:
Thanks for the chart Al :cheers: :tu:Thank you, W! :cheers:
Excellent pics GLBM :like: :tu:
:iagree: :like: :tu:Thank you, Steve! :cheers:
:nanadance: :nanadance: :nanadance: :nanadance: :nanadance: :nanadance:Thanks, D_T! :cheers:
:iagree:
Question: is the lock pivot also the tool pivot? Looks like, right?
If I understand your question, then the answer is no. The lock, rocks on a seperate pivot, 'behind' the tool pivot.
Post by: Dutch_Tooler on April 26, 2019, 04:12:46 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 26, 2019, 05:48:41 PM
Ah, OK, thanks GLBM :tu:Yes sir. :cheers:
Post by: Mechanickal on April 26, 2019, 05:59:47 PM
Quote
The Leatherman P-serie helps you to break free and feel free as a person
Post by: McStitchy on April 26, 2019, 06:41:58 PM
Post by: Wspeed on April 26, 2019, 06:51:18 PM
Post by: Buzzbait on April 26, 2019, 06:53:40 PM
Post by: roamingcat on April 27, 2019, 05:30:23 AM
My local LM official distributor told me back in March they will release it simultaneosly worldwide in April. I called them yesterday they told me it will not be available until May this time, and they have no idea of the local pricing yet. :facepalm: I get the feeling I won't be getting it any time soon since they gave me the bum steer last time.
In the meantime, from what I read the P2 is very similar to the Swisstool Spirit in weight, configuration and pricing. I would love to hear from folks who have used both to see how they compare. I already have the Spirit straight blade version. What improvements would I be gaining from the P2 over the Spirit? Which one would get more of your EDC time in the longer term? Thank you in anticipation for your feedback. :cheers:
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 27, 2019, 05:57:31 AM
Has any folks residing outside the US already received their Free yet?The P2 offers ALL one-hand tool/pliers access. No nail nicks on any of the tools. Scissors are really well constructed. Pliers are amazing. Phillips is good, flat driver/pry tool is good, small drivers are good. Awl is o.k, except it doubles as a tiny flat driver, which makes it only good for boring larger holes.
My local LM official distributor told me back in March they will release it simultaneosly worldwide in April. I called them yesterday they told me it will not be available until May this time, and they have no idea of the local pricing yet. :facepalm: I get the feeling I won't be getting it any time soon since they gave me the bum steer last time.
In the meantime, from what I read the P2 is very similar to the Swisstool Spirit in weight, configuration and pricing. I would love to hear from folks who have used both to see how they compare. I already have the Spirit straight blade version. What improvements would I be gaining from the P2 over the Spirit? Which one would get more of your EDC time in the longer term? Thank you in anticipation for your feedback. :cheers:
If I had to chose between the P2 and Spirit, it would be a difficult task. The two things that would break the impasse might be the P2 having a screw construction so I could disassemble for maintenance, and the P2 requires no fingernails/all OHO. I break my fingernails at work fairly often, which makes a lot of tools more arduous to utilize. Victorinox being the worst offender to use with broken fingernails.
One thing I dislike about the P2/P4, is what makes it so slick to use, which would be the magnets. I took the P2 to work and fiddled with some jobs using it. It worked great, except the magnets picked up steel wool dust. Some packing tape took care of it, but I am a lazy has-been when it comes to my user-tools and don't clean/oil them as often as I should. One of my Spirits suffered greatly from the metal dust getting into the tool pivots and has permanent scoring on the tool tangs that makes it very hard to open/close the implements. Vic steel is a touch on the softer side compared to 420HC(it is still good steel though), but that made it even easier for the wool dust to damage the pivots. I'd send it off to Vic for repair, but that damage was my fault for not insuring it was cleaned and oiled properly. Fortunately I have a second Spirit in perfect operating condition to fiddle with. The Spirit is still a fine azz tool and deserves a good portion of the praise it gets on MT.o. It just isn't quite as good, at least for me, as some people make it out to be.
Those are just some random and subjective observations/experiences so far. Will post more on the P series once I am done with the Surge challenge. :)
Post by: roamingcat on April 27, 2019, 07:35:33 AM
Post by: Max Stone on April 27, 2019, 07:40:07 AM
So here is a question:
If logic prevails, LM progressed from non-locking to locking on all their full-sized tools.
So if their new mechanism is such an improvement, is it not logical to assume that they upgrade all their full-sized tools?
If yes - then happy days surely?
If no - maybe we should not consider the solution better?
Just an interesting thought exercise... :dunno:
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 27, 2019, 08:00:33 AM
Thank you GLBM for your valuable insight. :like: The Spirit is an awesome MT imo and my only gripe is the scsissors and the lack of a pocket clip. I am hoping the P2 will fill this gap. Do you think the P2 has better scissors than the spirit? Thanks again !You're welcome, RC! :cheers:
The Spirit scissors set the bar quite low relative to modern scissor tech. So yes, the Free scissors are MUCH better. :)
Good feedback GLBM. :like:Thanks, Max! But, it is too late for a thought exercise. And, to make it worse, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed.
So here is a question:
If logic prevails, LM progressed from non-locking to locking on all their full-sized tools.
So if their new mechanism is such an improvement, is it not logical to assume that they upgrade all their full-sized tools?
If yes - then happy days surely?
If no - maybe we should not consider the solution better?
Just an interesting thought exercise... :dunno:
My thoughts are that the P series were not made to directly compete with tools LM already makes. And they aren't going to stop making those anytime soon. It is nice to see an additional option for a different lifestyle out there. It shows LM is creative in filling a void.
Post by: Max Stone on April 27, 2019, 08:22:14 AM
Post by: roamingcat on April 27, 2019, 08:25:23 AM
You're welcome, RC! :cheers:
The Spirit scissors set the bar quite low relative to modern scissor tech. So yes, the Free scissors are MUCH better. :)
Thank you for the reassurance GLBM, much appreciated :like: ! I can't wait for the P2 to hit our shores!
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 27, 2019, 01:48:06 PM
Maybe a little like what LM did with Skeletool, MUT, Style, etc. in creating a new range of MTs and knives.Indeed, very true. :iagree:
Thank you for the reassurance GLBM, much appreciated :like: ! I can't wait for the P2 to hit our shores!It'll be great if LM can get them there soon! :popcorn:
Post by: SteveC on April 27, 2019, 01:54:39 PM
Post by: powernoodle on April 27, 2019, 02:01:04 PM
Post by: gadgetman7 on April 27, 2019, 02:24:43 PM
I saw an on line review that said they weren’t very good today. Cedric & Ada, a knife reviewer noted the same issues that we have.
After seeing the video, I cut some hard wire with the P2 and P4 and the tools popped out on both of them when the wire was cut.
I think Leatherman released these tools before they were ready. I think I’m going to write Leatherman customer service about the issue to see what they say.
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Post by: McStitchy on April 27, 2019, 03:00:30 PM
Thank you GLBM for your valuable insight. :like: The Spirit is an awesome MT imo and my only gripe is the scsissors and the lack of a pocket clip. I am hoping the P2 will fill this gap. Do you think the P2 has better scissors than the spirit? Thanks again !
... meanwhile, what about a little workaround?
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,80005.msg1829880.html#msg1829880 (https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,80005.msg1829880.html#msg1829880)
Post by: SteveC on April 27, 2019, 03:00:49 PM
I wonder how well they’ll sell after the initial sales from collectors, the trendy and those generated by influencers wears off.
I saw an on line review that said they weren’t very good today. Cedric & Ada, a knife reviewer noted the same issues that we have.
After seeing the video, I cut some hard wire with the P2 and P4 and the tools popped out on both of them when the wire was cut.
I think Leatherman released these tools before they were ready. I think I’m going to write Leatherman customer service about the issue to see what they say.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3ir7aToo8s
Post by: McStitchy on April 27, 2019, 03:05:32 PM
I wonder how well they’ll sell after the initial sales from collectors, the trendy and those generated by influencers wears off.
I saw an on line review that said they weren’t very good today. Cedric & Ada, a knife reviewer noted the same issues that we have.
After seeing the video, I cut some hard wire with the P2 and P4 and the tools popped out on both of them when the wire was cut.
I think Leatherman released these tools before they were ready. I think I’m going to write Leatherman customer service about the issue to see what they say.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's what I actually meant in a former post.
I'm sorry it proved to be true :facepalm:
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 27, 2019, 03:27:24 PM
... meanwhile, what about a little workaround?You can tighten the pivots a bit on the P and never see tools pop out. The point, I guess is we need to judge tools pre-mod. My PowerPint is amazing, but only after mods most people can't do.
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,80005.msg1829880.html#msg1829880 (https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,80005.msg1829880.html#msg1829880)
I am glad the hard wire cut test is revealing a mild issue. Thankfully the blades and saw cannot come out in the scenario.
Post by: roamingcat on April 27, 2019, 03:35:52 PM
... meanwhile, what about a little workaround?
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,80005.msg1829880.html#msg1829880 (https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,80005.msg1829880.html#msg1829880)
Great mod Matt and thank you for sharing this with me. :like: This really helps me as the scissors was the only other sore point left for me (I already added a Nitize pocket clip to work around the other sore point). Thanks !
Post by: SteveC on April 27, 2019, 03:41:42 PM
Just to clarify, the long blades cannot come out when the pliers are engaged. The blade tips get locked in with the pliers deployment.
You can tighten the pivots a bit on the P and never see tools pop out. The point, I guess is we need to judge tools pre-mod. My PowerPint is amazing, but only after mods most people can't do.
I am glad the hard wire cut test is revealing a mild issue. Thankfully the blades and saw cannot come out in the scenario.
But how easily will they deploy once tightened enough not to pop out ?
Post by: Aloha on April 27, 2019, 03:47:11 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 27, 2019, 03:52:25 PM
But how easily will they deploy once tightened enough not to pop out ?True. I may experiment, to find an equilibrium, to see this evening. I've got a soldering iron and torx bits available. :multi:
Post by: roamingcat on April 27, 2019, 04:03:26 PM
I wonder how well they’ll sell after the initial sales from collectors, the trendy and those generated by influencers wears off.
I saw an on line review that said they weren’t very good today. Cedric & Ada, a knife reviewer noted the same issues that we have.
After seeing the video, I cut some hard wire with the P2 and P4 and the tools popped out on both of them when the wire was cut.
I think Leatherman released these tools before they were ready. I think I’m going to write Leatherman customer service about the issue to see what they say.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://youtu.be/ZAOK7E1d_0s
I really want to love getting the P2 when it becomes available in my neck of the woods but has anyone else noticed the 4 sore points revealed by the above video? That is:-
- implements flying out when snap closing the pliers (as already mentioned a few times in this thread)
- three protruding/sharp points (hotspots as he calls it) that poke at your hands when you grib the handles hard
Do you agree with the findings of the video, in particular the 3 hotspots causing discomfort?
Post by: gadgetman7 on April 27, 2019, 04:07:32 PM
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Post by: Aloha on April 27, 2019, 04:18:43 PM
Post by: ReamerPunch on April 27, 2019, 04:20:54 PM
Post by: SteveC on April 27, 2019, 04:23:05 PM
Post by: McStitchy on April 27, 2019, 04:40:18 PM
Great mod Matt and thank you for sharing this with me. :like: This really helps me as the scissors was the only other sore point left for me (I already added a Nitize pocket clip to work around the other sore point). Thanks !
You're welcome :cheers:
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 27, 2019, 04:47:57 PM
Are the wire-cutters the same exact ones as the Rebar etc?Indeed they are. :)
Post by: ReamerPunch on April 27, 2019, 06:08:39 PM
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on April 27, 2019, 06:34:52 PM
The only potentialhot spots for me are the lock releases but I can work around that.
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After playing around with my P4 the entire afternoon I can say that I agree with this.
Indeed they are potential hot spots, since you can feel them, but I don't know if they will become painful after using the pliers for an extended period. And if so, like gadgetman 7 said, you can easily work around them.
And the other hotspots mentioned in the previous video are a bit over the top in my opinion. The cut-outs in which the plier lock are noticeable when you rub your finger over them, but again, while using the pliers I myself can hardly feel them in the palm of my hand, and same goes for those small pointy things on each handle, the guy in the video describes them as if they are razorsharp pins that will cause agonizing pain during use, and I've been trying to dig them into the palm of my hand as hard as I can and can hardly notice them, and they are not sharp at all, I've been going over them with every spot on my hands and never was able to make even a small scratch ...
I'll post more of my findings later on ;).
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 27, 2019, 07:56:11 PM
After playing around with my P4 the entire afternoon I can say that I agree with this.Awesome info so far, T-G! :multi:
Indeed they are potential hot spots, since you can feel them, but I don't know if they will become painful after using the pliers for an extended period. And if so, like gadgetman 7 said, you can easily work around them.
And the other hotspots mentioned in the previous video are a bit over the top in my opinion. The cut-outs in which the plier lock are noticeable when you rub your finger over them, but again, while using the pliers I myself can hardly feel them in the palm of my hand, and same goes for those small pointy things on each handle, the guy in the video describes them as if they are razorsharp pins that will cause agonizing pain during use, and I've been trying to dig them into the palm of my hand as hard as I can and can hardly notice them, and they are not sharp at all, I've been going over them with every spot on my hands and never was able to make even a small scratch ...
I'll post more of my findings later on ;).
Glad you got the P4. I feel like it is a good tool. Not the best like the advertising tried to make it out, but good enough.
The fidget factor alone makes is special, because no other MT can touch it in that respect. The Spirit would be second place. IMO of course.
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on April 27, 2019, 08:10:22 PM
Awesome info so far, T-G! :multi:
Glad you got the P4. I feel like it is a good tool. Not the best like the advertising tried to make it out, but good enough.
The fidget factor alone makes is special, because no other MT can touch it in that respect. The Spirit would be second place. IMO of course.
A couple of tools all share first place when it comes to fidget factor for me, the Free P4 is definitely one of them, but my other favorites are the Swisstool (I for one like the opening and closing of the pliers more on the Swisstool than on the Spirit), the Crunch is also one of them, and last but not least, the Gerber MP600, I mean ... sliding pliers ...
Show content
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4SXpOFQ9T8
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 27, 2019, 08:52:48 PM
A couple of tools all share first place when it comes to fidget factor for me, the Free P4 is definitely one of them, but my other favorites are the Swisstool (I for one like the opening and closing of the pliers more on the Swisstool than on the Spirit), the Crunch is also one of them, and last but not least, the Gerber MP600, I mean ... sliding pliers ...I forget about the Gerber sliding pliers. Guess that's because I carried one over 10 years. Definitely a contender. :iagree:Show contenthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4SXpOFQ9T8
Post by: gregpost on April 27, 2019, 09:40:37 PM
Post by: sawman on April 27, 2019, 10:04:32 PM
Somebody on youtube claims they called Leatherman to inquire about a pocket clip for the P4 and were told they would be sent one for free. Note to all you P4 owners who bought through Leatherman 's website.Is that pun intended :pok:
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on April 27, 2019, 10:17:55 PM
Somebody on youtube claims they called Leatherman to inquire about a pocket clip for the P4 and were told they would be sent one for free. Note to all you P4 owners who bought through Leatherman 's website.
I'm pretty sure when I contact Leatherman Belgium about this that I'll get a negative response ... That is if I even get a response in the first place ...
Maybe I should contact Leatherman U.S.A. for it, and while doing so also hear about my new Leatherman Logo sticker :rant:.
;)
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 27, 2019, 10:20:21 PM
Is that pun intended :pok:
:D
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 27, 2019, 10:23:46 PM
Post by: Syncop8r on April 27, 2019, 11:07:26 PM
Post by: kkokkolis on April 27, 2019, 11:19:11 PM
Post by: genevabuck on April 27, 2019, 11:57:14 PM
I just bought a P2 to get a pocket clip for my P4. :whistle:
Where did you get it at?
Post by: Mike 56 on April 28, 2019, 01:23:33 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190427/7c258c74d41a3f4f5b458e453589e529.jpg)
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Post by: gerleatherberman on April 28, 2019, 05:34:29 AM
I’m thinking I will end up buying a P2 something new to play with. Looking at the videos the tools look similar to a wingman. I should be able to make a bit adapter for it so I can use standard 1/4 bits or leatherman flat bits.Good idea. :like:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190427/7c258c74d41a3f4f5b458e453589e529.jpg)
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Post by: BIG-TARGET on April 28, 2019, 06:17:32 AM
I’m getting to the age and health the my days of hacking an airfield out of the jungle, with a full blown multitool, are pretty much over🤔
Post by: Max Stone on April 28, 2019, 08:01:13 AM
Post by: george1 on April 28, 2019, 01:19:30 PM
Can l walk into a Cabelas/Walmart etc. and buy one or is it only through Leatherman's online store?
I will be in the US in a few weeks and will definitely get a P2 (or a P4 if l can get a pocket clip) if they are available.
Post by: genevabuck on April 28, 2019, 02:39:47 PM
Are the P2/P4 available at retail outlets in the US yet? How about spare pocket clips?
Can l walk into a Cabelas/Walmart etc. and buy one or is it only through Leatherman's online store?
I will be in the US in a few weeks and will definitely get a P2 (or a P4 if l can get a pocket clip) if they are available.
I’m not sure if they are on the shelves yet but Cabelas would be your best bet. Where will you be in the U.S.?
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 28, 2019, 04:47:40 PM
Maybe see if there are any MT.o members nearby where you'll be staying and ask them to order a P2 ahead of time?
That would also make for a cool meetup with another person who is an MT fan. Not a lot of us MT-nutters around. :ahhh
Post by: gregpost on April 28, 2019, 04:57:25 PM
Are the P2/P4 available at retail outlets in the US yet? How about spare pocket clips?
Can l walk into a Cabelas/Walmart etc. and buy one or is it only through Leatherman's online store?
I will be in the US in a few weeks and will definitely get a P2 (or a P4 if l can get a pocket clip) if they are available.
There not supposed to be in retail locations until August/September. They are however selling on Amazon from third party sellers.
Post by: genevabuck on April 28, 2019, 05:11:39 PM
There not supposed to be in retail locations until August/September. They are however selling on Amazon from third party sellers.
I have seen pics of them in stores on Instagram. I just have no idea as to which stores. Cabelas usually gets new items very early.
Post by: gadgetman7 on April 28, 2019, 07:46:00 PM
Another option is to have it shipped to you hotel or the address you’re staying. Amazon has one day shipping available for a fee.
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Post by: LoopCutter on April 28, 2019, 08:50:40 PM
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Post by: Mike 56 on April 28, 2019, 09:23:52 PM
Post by: genevabuck on April 28, 2019, 09:30:40 PM
The Walmart near me no longer have any Leatherman products in the store.
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Walmart sells what moves. No way are they putting a $140.00 multi tool on the shelves. My local Walmart currently has a Rebar. That’s it right now.
Post by: george1 on April 28, 2019, 10:19:03 PM
l'll look into using Amzon and getting it delivered to my hotel as my wife has an account.
Post by: JustinCase on April 28, 2019, 10:22:02 PM
Post by: Wessaen on April 29, 2019, 04:07:50 AM
When the local Walmarts cleared out their LM stock about a year and a half ago they had Revs for $7, Skeletools for $15 and Rebars for $20. :woohoo:
More recently they had 3 D-cell/2 C-cell Maglite sets for $19. :gimme:
-Wes.
Post by: ReamerPunch on April 29, 2019, 08:50:19 AM
Rebars for $20. :woohoo:
I would have cleared out the clearance. :drool:
Post by: roamingcat on April 29, 2019, 09:40:23 AM
My initial impression is the Free indeed feels like a high quality tool and there is a lot of cool factor. I particularly wanted to check out the 3 hotspots mentioned earlier in a recent video which bothered me. After playing around with it in both open and closed positions extensively, I concluded the only hotspot that bothered me is the locking mechanism at the end of the handles when I squeeze hard at the pliers. I can feel the other 2 hotspots but it isn't enough of a concern for me personally. But that is just me and everyone's hand is different. For those in doubt, I suggest you try it out in person first if you could before buying.
The good news for me is it will be available for sale (finally) here next week. The bad news is it is priced at 45% more than the US list price for the P2 at today's exchange rate :facepalm:. My initial reaction is I probably won't be in a hurry to pay this premium especially I have just upgraded my Vic Spirit scissors (shown next to the P2 for comparison). I may even plan for a holiday to the US and pick it up there if I could.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 29, 2019, 10:00:58 AM
Today, I finally have the opportunity to try out the Free in person at my local LM distributor who has just received it into their showroom. It is not officially on sale yet until next week but they are very kind to let me play around with the show piece 'to my hearts content'.
My initial impression is the Free indeed feels like a high quality tool and there is a lot of cool factor. I particularly wanted to check out the 3 hotspots mentioned earlier in a recent video which bothered me. After playing around with it in both open and closed positions extensively, I concluded the only hotspot that bothered me is the locking mechanism at the end of the handles when I squeeze hard at the pliers. I can feel the other 2 hotspots but it isn't enough of a concern for me personally. But that is just me and everyone's hand is different. For those in doubt, I suggest you try it out in person first if you could before buying.
The good news for me is it will be available for sale (finally) here next week. The bad news is it is priced at 45% more than the US list price for the P2 at today's exchange rate :facepalm:. My initial reaction is I probably won't be in a hurry to pay this premium especially I have just upgraded my Vic Spirit scissors (shown next to the P2 for comparison). I may even plan for a holiday to the US and pick it up there if I could.
That was cool of them to let you check. :multi:
45% MORE? :rant:
Post by: roamingcat on April 29, 2019, 10:57:47 AM
That was cool of them to let you check. :multi:
45% MORE? :rant:
Yup. USD175 for the P2 here. I understand it lists at USD120 in the US. Thats 45% markup according to my calculator. :(
With that said, they are very friendly and have good customer service.
Post by: Syncop8r on April 29, 2019, 01:09:12 PM
Quote
You got City Hands, Mr Hooper... been countin' money all your life.
Post by: Aloha on April 29, 2019, 07:44:44 PM
Post by: Aloha on April 29, 2019, 08:09:48 PM
https://youtu.be/7_Zy9Itxq20
Post by: McStitchy on April 29, 2019, 09:04:40 PM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 29, 2019, 09:16:34 PM
This may have been asked already, it hard to keep up so sorry in advance. Looking at the plier head and the replaceable cutters. Is there less material on the side of the plier head where the cutters are? I am looking at my ST300 and theres appears to be more material from the replaceable cutter to the outside of the plier head? Makes sense?
The
Post by: Max Stone on April 29, 2019, 10:12:46 PM
Have y'all seen this guys overview?
https://youtu.be/7_Zy9Itxq20
Very interesting and objective. Worth the watch. Thanks Aloha. :tu:
Post by: genevabuck on April 29, 2019, 11:41:45 PM
Have y'all seen this guys overview?
https://youtu.be/7_Zy9Itxq20
Probably the best overview so far. I wish he would have tested the hard wire cutters though. I don’t doubt LM when they say that they are their strongest ever.
Post by: Wspeed on April 29, 2019, 11:46:13 PM
of testing the Free rather than just talking about it :D
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 29, 2019, 11:54:01 PM
:iagree: would be good if they start showing videosI'm not done with the Surge challenge. :dunno: :D
of testing the Free rather than just talking about it :D
I have a P4 ready to go, because I have another on order for the collection.
But, that said, the idea is if LM uses the same tool steel on the Free as the rest of their tools, in theory it should perform well. The locking system appears to be very strong, with incredible lockup. Though I would need to do extended testing to know for sure. Same goes for the pliers mounting with the elastomer cushions. I'll give it a go after the Surge challenge. Just two more days for me.
Post by: Wspeed on April 29, 2019, 11:57:41 PM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 30, 2019, 12:06:21 AM
I don’t doubt LM when they say that they are their strongest ever.
I do! For the same reasons that I mentioned before, all the force been delivered through those four little latching lugs.
I'm not saying it's weak per se, (as mentioned before, we don't know if the casting have sufficient tensile strength and ductility) just that I seriously doubt that it's as strong as the Surge/ST300 head, as the force is better delivered (stronger load bearing, and more evenly distributed) from handles to head. That last video which demonstrates twist between handle and head, would also suggest that not only are these lugs of smaller cross sectional area than elsewhere on the head, but may also be unevenly loaded, creating even more load on individual lugs.
Post by: genevabuck on April 30, 2019, 12:16:27 AM
I do! For the same reasons that I mentioned before, all the force been delivered through those four little latching lugs.
I'm not saying it's weak per se, (as mentioned before, we don't know if the casting have sufficient tensile strength and ductility) just that I seriously doubt that it's as strong as the Surge/ST300 head, as the force is better delivered (stronger load bearing, and more evenly distributed) from handles to head. That last video which demonstrates twist between handle and head, would also suggest that not only are these lugs of smaller cross sectional area than elsewhere on the head, but may also be unevenly loaded, creating even more load on individual lugs.
As I said, I’m waiting on someone to prove their claims wrong.
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on April 30, 2019, 12:37:59 AM
I do! For the same reasons that I mentioned before, all the force been delivered through those four little latching lugs.
I'm not saying it's weak per se, (as mentioned before, we don't know if the casting have sufficient tensile strength and ductility) just that I seriously doubt that it's as strong as the Surge/ST300 head, as the force is better delivered (stronger load bearing, and more evenly distributed) from handles to head. That last video which demonstrates twist between handle and head, would also suggest that not only are these lugs of smaller cross sectional area than elsewhere on the head, but may also be unevenly loaded, creating even more load on individual lugs.
:iagree:
That's why I took some pics of the P4 along with the Surge and Wave + ... (again, bad pics, smartphone, dark outside ... you know)
(https://i.imgur.com/IDHf1Yl.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/AbkCe7h.jpg)
Not saying that they will break more easily, but it's fair to say that, at some point in time, somebody at Leatherman thought it would be a good idea to thicken the shoulders on the pliers at the spot where the replaceable cutters are. Hence the beefed up plier heads on the Surge/ST300/Rebar.
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 30, 2019, 12:39:02 AM
As far as the handles sway, I have already covered that several times. Mr. TX Crib may not be aware that the handles sway is an inherent problem with any all-outboard implement MT. I even posted a video of me doing it to my Spirit.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 30, 2019, 12:48:03 AM
I'm not seeing the new system as weaker. The lugs appear to be of high quality and some serious squeeze testing(crushing pencils and cutting high strength wire) has instilled me with a sense of confidence.
As far as the handles sway, I have already covered that several times. Mr. TX Crib may not be aware that the handles sway is an inherent problem with any all-outboard implement MT. I even posted a video of me doing it to my Spirit.
But on the Spirit, it doesn't affect the load transfer the same way.
I still think the Surge/ST300 is a stronger design.
Post by: genevabuck on April 30, 2019, 12:52:08 AM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 30, 2019, 12:54:48 AM
:iagree:
That's why I took some pics of the P4 along with the Surge and Wave + ... (again, bad pics, smartphone, dark outside ... you know)
(https://i.imgur.com/IDHf1Yl.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/AbkCe7h.jpg)
Not saying that the will break more easily, but it's fair to say that, at some point in time, somebody at Leatherman thought it would be a good idea to thicken the shoulders on the pliers at the spot where the replaceable cutters are. Hence the beefed up plier heads on the Surge/ST300/Rebar.
It is possible that they've been able to improve the metallurgy to compensate, or allow the dimensional changes. We'll have to see when someone first manages to break them, whether the weak spot is on the engagement lugs, or around the insert pocket (and how they were being used when failure occurred). I'm sure if we're patient enough, someone will break one sooner or later. :D
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 30, 2019, 12:55:35 AM
I remember when the Rebar came out. There were big time questions about the strength of the pliers. Is there a thread about them failing yet?I'm sure we have seen a broken Rebar head before :think:
Post by: genevabuck on April 30, 2019, 01:00:17 AM
I'm sure we have seen a broken Rebar head before :think:
Perhaps. I’m sure every implement on a multi tool has been broken.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 30, 2019, 01:02:23 AM
Perhaps. I’m sure every implement on a multi tool has been broken.
Indeed!
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 30, 2019, 01:03:39 AM
But on the Spirit, it doesn't affect the load transfer the same way.Indeed. But, all in all, Leatherman doesn't tend to produce junk(the squirt scissor implement is a pretty bad design, but that isn't typical). Their R&D has always been very good. Part of LM's appeal is the trust people have in their designs. Same with Vic. QC is another topic, of which I have issues with LM and Vic.
I still think the Surge/ST300 is a stronger design.
Of course the Surge, 300 and MUT pliers are going to be stronger. They are much bigger and designed to be really tough.
LM is selling the P2/P4 as the strongest "full-size" pliers and not the strongest HD pliers. :)
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 30, 2019, 01:11:04 AM
LM is selling the P2/P4 as the strongest "full-size" pliers and not the strongest HD pliers. :)
:rofl: Oh, come on. That's very tenuous.
Post by: gustophersmob on April 30, 2019, 01:15:16 AM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 30, 2019, 01:21:35 AM
It’s interesting, at around the 2:57 mark in the TX tool crib video, that the two plier heads are different. I wonder if the different sized lugs on the P2 would cause any odd issues with load transfer?
Good call! :tu: I did notice the difference, but didn't make that synaptic connection. I'll go back for another look :salute:
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 30, 2019, 01:24:46 AM
:rofl: Oh, come on. That's very tenuous.True. :rofl:
Believe me, if I need some bad-to-the-bone pliers, the Surge would be my choice. I would equate the P2/P4 pliers with the Wave more than anything. IMO of course.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 30, 2019, 01:44:39 AM
It’s interesting, at around the 2:57 mark in the TX tool crib video, that the two plier heads are different. I wonder if the different sized lugs on the P2 would cause any odd issues with load transfer?
Hard to say without seeing one up close, but gut feeling is that the P2 head would be a little stronger on the short lug side. In itself, it won't increase loading on the other side.
I think the torsional flex would possibly increase load on one lug over the other on individual jaw sections, but having them dissimilar sized won't load one handle's lugs more than the other. The fact that the force is acting further from the change in section might mean the longer lug isn't as strong as the shorter one, and the force is effecting a bending moment on the casting rather than direct shear stress as on the shorter lug. (shear strength is 0.75 x tensile strength of the full cross sectional area, but bending moments are more complicated to calculate, particularly on sectional changes)
EDIT: It's a LOOOONG time since I was doing design calculations like that, so I'm not going to speculate on percentage differences between the two. Suffice to say that if the P4 design is strong enough, the P2 will be too.
Post by: gustophersmob on April 30, 2019, 01:44:55 AM
Hard to say without seeing one up close, but gut feeling is that the P2 head would be a little stronger on the short lug side. In itself, it won't increase loading on the other side.
I think the torsional flex would possibly increase load on one lug over the other on individual jaw sections, but having them dissimilar sized won't load one handle's lugs more than the other. The fact that the force is acting further from the change in section might mean the longer lug isn't as strong as the shorter one, and the force is effecting a bending moment on the casting rather than direct shear stress as on the shorter lug. (shear strength is 0.75 x tensile strength of the full cross sectional area, but bending moments are more complicated to calculate, particularly on sectional changes)
That’s basically what I was wondering, if actual use of the pliers could cause some odd bending moment since they’re slightly offset from the centerline of the tool, which would then unevenly load the lugs. Though, you definitely said it better :tu:
I suppose it really comes down to what force they designed it to handle and how well the pliers are cast :dunno:
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 30, 2019, 04:44:49 AM
I can put different materials in a vice and try twisting, angle bending, turning, etc. I am thinking perpendicular bending of hardened steel may be the most likely to cause an issue with the area of possible concern.
My current P4 is now a user, so it wouldn't bother me to bend some stuff with it.
It became a user when I ordered a second one for the collection. :facepalm:
Post by: AimlessWanderer on April 30, 2019, 05:00:26 AM
Just follow your instincts, and give it a hard time :D
Post by: roamingcat on April 30, 2019, 05:45:50 AM
My current P4 is now a user, so it wouldn't bother me to bend some stuff with it.
It became a user when I ordered a second one for the collection. :facepalm:
I'm sure the MT manufacturers would not have a problem with that. Many of us folks here seem to have unlimited funds when it comes to multitools. :cheers:
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 30, 2019, 05:58:26 AM
I'm sure the MT manufacturers would not have a problem with that. Many of us folks here seem to have unlimited funds when it comes to multitools. :cheers:I'm going to be working an extra full day this week to pay for most of the second P4. :facepalm: :rofl:
Where there's a tool, there's a way. :ahhh
Post by: Syncop8r on April 30, 2019, 09:53:06 AM
LM is selling the P2/P4 as the strongest "full-size" pliers and not the strongest HD pliers. :)
It really bugs me that what they call "Full Size" is not the fullest size. :rant:
Post by: SteveC on April 30, 2019, 02:09:06 PM
Seems to me they were touting them as the strongest plier we've ever made in the early video's
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 30, 2019, 05:37:00 PM
Indeed it did. But, after a few of his appearances, he backtracked to add 'full-size', which by their tool classification means tools like the Wave, Rebar, Charge, etc. Very unfortunate LM chose to promote their new models by cutting down their current lineup. I personally cannot see the P series dethroning the Wave/Charge. :ahhh
Seems to me they were touting them as the strongest plier we've ever made in the early video's
Post by: Dutch_Tooler on April 30, 2019, 05:42:33 PM
Post by: Aloha on April 30, 2019, 05:45:43 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on April 30, 2019, 07:41:41 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/NpJf0UQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qQuNPGe.jpg)
Post by: Syncop8r on April 30, 2019, 10:01:54 PM
Maybe not... but from the design I get the impression the P2 and P4 are scalable to something bigger...
Be interesting to see if this series has "bigger" plans :think:
Hmmm... the Free is 4¼" long, halfway between the Wave etc (4") and Surge etc (4½")... a bigger tool would perhaps be even longer than the Surge/ST300.
Was the Free P series meant to sit in the middle? And further P models will be the same size but with different implements? Or perhaps they are longer because of their mechanics? :dunno:
Post by: SteveC on April 30, 2019, 10:04:32 PM
Post by: Dutch_Tooler on April 30, 2019, 11:03:50 PM
Post by: Dutch_Tooler on May 01, 2019, 03:26:16 AM
Amazon can't guarantee that Netrush will have it delivered before I head back home, so off the list it goes. The P2 yes, not the P4. I want the P4.
Same for Bass Sporting Goods - "allow 1-2 weeks" is just not good enough.
Cabela's says 4-7 business days, which would work, but their website does not allow me to enter Germany as the country hosting my credit card billing address... WTF?
Retail doesn't start until August...
The frustration is very palpable. :rant:
At least I'll probably spend another week in the US in August, so I guess I'll just have to be patient... :facepalm:
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 01, 2019, 03:41:20 AM
Post by: Blackbeard on May 01, 2019, 06:48:22 AM
Seems to me they were touting them as the strongest plier we've ever made in the early video's
not sure what context they meant...the steel, the leverage, pivot, steel hardness, force you could apply before it breaks...were they referring to the pliers section or the whole tool, it could be the strongest depending on the context.
Post by: genevabuck on May 01, 2019, 10:15:38 PM
So of course I want to get my hands on a P4, if only to feel and fondle... ehh to have a first hands-on experience. The MT gods are not making this easier... even if I am currently in NYC and about to spend 10 days in Florida.
Amazon can't guarantee that Netrush will have it delivered before I head back home, so off the list it goes. The P2 yes, not the P4. I want the P4.
Same for Bass Sporting Goods - "allow 1-2 weeks" is just not good enough.
Cabela's says 4-7 business days, which would work, but their website does not allow me to enter Germany as the country hosting my credit card billing address... WTF?
Retail doesn't start until August...
The frustration is very palpable. :rant:
At least I'll probably spend another week in the US in August, so I guess I'll just have to be patient... :facepalm:
I’m pretty sure that Blade HQ gave me an option for overnight shipping.
Post by: SteveC on May 01, 2019, 11:32:09 PM
not sure what context they meant...the steel, the leverage, pivot, steel hardness, force you could apply before it breaks...were they referring to the pliers section or the whole tool, it could be the strongest depending on the context.
They were talking about the plier head
Post by: Dutch_Tooler on May 02, 2019, 04:36:22 AM
I’m pretty sure that Blade HQ gave me an option for overnight shipping.Thanks for the tip! :tu:
Not overnight, but 2 business days, which will work for me :D Let's hope they accept temp addresses.
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 02, 2019, 05:12:36 AM
Thanks for the tip! :tu::woohoo:
Not overnight, but 2 business days, which will work for me :D Let's hope they accept temp addresses.
Looking forward to reading your thoughts on the P4. :popcorn:
Post by: israelpiper on May 02, 2019, 08:58:38 AM
Are the P2/P4 available at retail outlets in the US yet? How about spare pocket clips?
Can l walk into a Cabelas/Walmart etc. and buy one or is it only through Leatherman's online store?
I will be in the US in a few weeks and will definitely get a P2 (or a P4 if l can get a pocket clip) if they are available.
They have arrived in a few retail outlets here in Israel. With handling charges, customs assessment, and a 17% VAT, the P4 will be slightly over $200 in sheqels. And yes, we have a Leatherman Service Centre here and get the same warranty.
Post by: ReamerPunch on May 02, 2019, 11:56:50 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/BqY5MmK.jpg)
Post by: Poncho65 on May 02, 2019, 12:11:21 PM
:D
Post by: Wspeed on May 02, 2019, 12:46:25 PM
Post by: Sam Lim on May 02, 2019, 01:11:26 PM
Post by: Wspeed on May 02, 2019, 01:49:42 PM
Post by: Aloha on May 02, 2019, 02:18:50 PM
Post by: Poncho65 on May 02, 2019, 02:44:58 PM
:rofl: good one Poncho :rofl: :like:
:hatsoff:
And great to hear it, Sam :tu: :like:
Post by: Sam Lim on May 02, 2019, 03:40:42 PM
Post by: ReamerPunch on May 02, 2019, 03:43:09 PM
Post by: Dutch_Tooler on May 02, 2019, 03:53:09 PM
I can't wait to see what great mods you'll do to it. :popcorn:
:iagree: :popcorn:
Post by: Sam Lim on May 02, 2019, 04:30:10 PM
Post by: Aloha on May 02, 2019, 04:45:26 PM
I want you in the LM factory with full access to do as you will. Tim :pok: I'm talking to you ;) make it happen.
Post by: Sam Lim on May 02, 2019, 05:36:02 PM
:popcorn: Sam I am certain you will find a way :pok:
I want you in the LM factory with full access to do as you will. Tim :pok: I'm talking to you ;) make it happen.
:salute: :salute: if that ever happens, the first thing I will do is to head straight to the QC dept and give everyone a good knock on the head. :twak:
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 02, 2019, 07:05:32 PM
My position is, only buy one if you want something really nice to play with and enjoy the engineering of. If you're only looking for a tool to use at work, buy a Wave. And that is only in respects to LM. Outside of LM, and specifically China made tools(I can make a lost of good ones if anyone wants), there are many more practical tools for just using.
Post by: genevabuck on May 02, 2019, 10:51:17 PM
I think you'll enjoy how slick the tool operates. As far as a user tool is concerned, it offers nothing new. The fidget factor and fit & finish are what sold me on it. The no nail nicks and OHO are awesome too. It offers a lot more than the OHT, becauseof the compact size. Sure, it's pricey, but it was made in Oregon. Labor, machining and materials costs aren't exactly competitive with any other country.
My position is, only buy one if you want something really nice to play with and enjoy the engineering of. If you're only looking for a tool to use at work, buy a Wave. And that is only in respects to LM. Outside of LM, and specifically China made tools(I can make a lost of good ones if anyone wants), there are many more practical tools for just using.
The price of quality knives/tools are high right now. Could Leatherman add an upgraded blade? Sure. You are just gonna be paying a lot more. I have a half dozen Charges, and they are nice but I have almost always preferred carrying a Wave or other because they are easy to sharpen in the field.
Post by: gadgetman7 on May 03, 2019, 03:20:41 AM
The price of quality knives/tools are high right now. Could Leatherman add an upgraded blade? Sure. You are just gonna be paying a lot more. I have a half dozen Charges, and they are nice but I have almost always preferred carrying a Wave or other because they are easy to sharpen in the field.The cost differential between S30v and 420HC isn’t that much per blade. I suspect it’s the matching time. Oddly, Cold Steel and Benchmade upgraded their cheaper steels with less than a 5 % cost difference.
The 420HC is easier to sharpen but needs to be sharpened a good bit more in my experience. I guess it’s all a trade off.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 03, 2019, 03:27:43 AM
The price of quality knives/tools are high right now. Could Leatherman add an upgraded blade? Sure. You are just gonna be paying a lot more. I have a half dozen Charges, and they are nice but I have almost always preferred carrying a Wave or other because they are easy to sharpen in the field.:iagree:
Bet ya if LM put S30V steel in the P4 PE blade, we would hear about how they didn't use some S90V(sorry guys, but I gotta poke a little fun here). :rofl:
I think the P2 and P4 are fairly priced, all things considered. I have a second P4 on the way and don't feel ripped off. And I only make $1200 a month at my job since my tendon injuries occurred. :dunno:
Post by: SirVicaLot on May 03, 2019, 03:37:02 AM
If it goes slow on the market i would expect a price drop, so we will see.
Post by: Sam Lim on May 03, 2019, 04:19:45 AM
I think you'll enjoy how slick the tool operates. As far as a user tool is concerned, it offers nothing new. The fidget factor and fit & finish are what sold me on it. The no nail nicks and OHO are awesome too. It offers a lot more than the OHT, becauseof the compact size. Sure, it's pricey, but it was made in Oregon. Labor, machining and materials costs aren't exactly competitive with any other country.
My position is, only buy one if you want something really nice to play with and enjoy the engineering of. If you're only looking for a tool to use at work, buy a Wave. And that is only in respects to LM. Outside of LM, and specifically China made tools(I can make a lost of good ones if anyone wants), there are many more practical tools for just using.
I really hope so. Fingers crossed. Most of my users are customised one way or other. Getting by with stock tools, I can't. I can understand there's no perfect MT in the world. Not at least straight from the factory. Customising the Free series is quite questionable now.. But, I am still very excited today! Its arriving!! :mail:
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 03, 2019, 04:47:08 AM
I really hope so. Fingers crossed. Most of my users are customised one way or other. Getting by with stock tools, I can't. I can understand there's no perfect MT in the world. Not at least straight from the factory. Customising the Free series is quite questionable now.. But, I am still very excited today! Its arriving!! :mail::woohoo: NICE!
Awaiting initial impressions. :popcorn:
You have to take into account though that you are a fan and a collector. Will be interesting to see how the general crowd sees the price. Could be hard to tell though because i am sure we won’t get sales numbers.Biggest problem I have is that I'm a fan of multiple brands. :facepalm:
If it goes slow on the market i would expect a price drop, so we will see.
Though it may be surprising, Leatherman isn't my favorite brand. :ahhh
Gerber(my first pliers MT love), Victorinox(first multi knife love), Leatherman(makes a lot of great multitools and made in US is a plus), SOG(best pliers - hands down), Schrade(ToughTools are awesome), Buck(interesting vintage and moderb designs), Kutmaster, and many many others. :facepalm:
I wish I were a true fan of just one brand. Life would be much less confusing. Then, add on the model lines and my heightened interest in some( Gerber MPs for one).
I'm smurfed. :facepalm:
Post by: SirVicaLot on May 03, 2019, 05:20:02 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 03, 2019, 05:41:23 AM
That is why you are here. For therapy :D:cheers:
And all this time I thought we were here for enabling. :whistle: :woohoo:
Post by: SirVicaLot on May 03, 2019, 05:46:28 AM
:cheers:
Post by: Aloha on May 03, 2019, 06:19:18 AM
I continue to watch some videos and it looks to be quite the fiddle factor tool. I'm good with my go to tools. My pursuit of collecting the next tool is pretty much in a hold pattern. If I should see one in the wild and have the opportunity I may bite. I'm in no rush however. Interesting tho is when the Signal came out I ended up getting one rather quickly :whistle:.
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 03, 2019, 06:32:19 AM
WE are here for that. YOU on the other hand will go the way fuzzy went i am afraid :rofl: :D:rofl:
:cheers:
That may be a correct assumption, but what little pride is left leaves no room for a confession this evening. :waving:
Post by: aussieman on May 03, 2019, 07:45:11 AM
Post by: sawman on May 03, 2019, 09:32:48 AM
The way I see it Leatherman is offering a very good quality steel compared to that garbage SOG is on some of their new multitools.
While I do not agree with their starting prices, the more I look at the p2 I think they may not be too far off the mark.
Post by: genevabuck on May 04, 2019, 03:09:26 AM
Anyone know of a supplier that will ship to Australia? :cheers:
These guys ship to Australia if you contact them.
https://www.bladehq.com/
Post by: Dutch_Tooler on May 05, 2019, 12:22:39 AM
My Free P4 is due Tuesday, after a slight holdup due to a temporary shipping address prompting an ID verification cycle.
:woohoo:
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 05, 2019, 12:25:25 AM
... and they can be fast (at some extra cost).Very cool. :like:
My Free P4 is due Tuesday, after a slight holdup due to a temporary shipping address prompting an ID verification cycle.
:woohoo:
Post by: Wspeed on May 05, 2019, 12:46:52 AM
Post by: aussieman on May 05, 2019, 02:23:43 PM
These guys ship to Australia if you contact them.
https://www.bladehq.com/
THANK you, will email them. :cheers:
Post by: Vjeko Posavac on May 05, 2019, 03:07:42 PM
And i LIKE my Surge :multi:
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 05, 2019, 07:45:07 PM
I really hope so. Fingers crossed. Most of my users are customised one way or other. Getting by with stock tools, I can't. I can understand there's no perfect MT in the world. Not at least straight from the factory. Customising the Free series is quite questionable now.. But, I am still very excited today! Its arriving!! :mail:
I'm with you, it's so hard to sit with a stock tool. I want to trade ones I am satisfied with just to keep trying new things. I can't see doing Any Free model modding in my future. Also is it me, or is the hollow grind really disappointing when I get a flat grind in the wave or charge? I really like my blades to be on the tough side and hollow grinds tend to fail on me.
Post by: Obi1shinobee on May 05, 2019, 09:48:56 PM
Post by: aussieman on May 15, 2019, 08:25:31 AM
THANK you, will email them. :cheers:
Thanks anyway, they got back to me and said Leatherman have asked them not to ship internationally.
So the hunt for shipping to Australia goes on...
Post by: Max Stone on May 15, 2019, 11:54:57 AM
Post by: balvenie on May 15, 2019, 09:28:58 PM
Thanks anyway, they got back to me and said Leatherman have asked them not to ship internationally.Really?! Holy shxx.... That is a bad news.... I think we have to wait after august
So the hunt for shipping to Australia goes on...
Post by: Max Stone on May 15, 2019, 09:51:40 PM
Post by: aussieman on May 23, 2019, 12:04:15 PM
Bundlebox is the answer. I’ve shipped many things from the US using them.
Thanks for the tip... if I import them into Australia do i have any issues with the warranty?
Was thinking of adding a few to the order and reselling them on ebay locally... but I'm curious if that means they would have to be sent back to the USA for warranty claims.
Post by: Raoul Octav on May 23, 2019, 12:52:31 PM
Post by: Max Stone on May 23, 2019, 01:09:11 PM
Post by: JustinCase on May 24, 2019, 09:53:37 PM
https://www.leatherman.com/blog/everyday/the-making-of-leatherman-free?j=514946&sfmc_sub=33192871&l=75_HTML&u=15127805&mid=7279667&jb=54&utm_source=SFMC&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=190523_Blog_Feature_USA
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 24, 2019, 10:00:20 PM
-Peter Parker
You know what I am going to say right? :facepalm: Equal too or better than my foot. Also, now I know where Sony's Spiderman went to work after those two terrible movies (not the new ones). The U.S. Economy strikes again. :rofl:
I feel like he just said...HEY! IGNORE THE TOOLS INSIDE! Don't I look fancy in this new package?
Yes. the quality and function of the internal tools really does matter a lot. Basically what this tells me is that they are not trying to create Multi-tools that have components that are equal to the real thing (like Rebar Philps) , but instead want to make tools that get the job done....unless its a hard job....then get some real tools...
:facepalm: :rant:
Post by: SirVicaLot on May 25, 2019, 12:19:24 AM
Did i just call GLBM a hipster? :D
Sorry man, i know you will take it the right way :cheers:
Post by: genevabuck on May 25, 2019, 01:34:27 AM
https://www.leatherman.com/blog/everyday/the-making-of-leatherman-free?j=514946&sfmc_sub=33192871&l=75_HTML&u=15127805&mid=7279667&jb=54&utm_source=SFMC&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=190523_Blog_Feature_USA
An absolute must read. I loved looking at the prototypes.
Post by: cody6268 on May 25, 2019, 01:57:29 AM
"Yeah, you’re probably wondering what does it do? Well, it does everything the Wave does equal to or better. It’s important to note, that’s not the selling point of this new collection. Look at these screwdrivers… we have not taken these screwdrivers to a new level of, let’s call it, “screwdriver-ness". That is if anybody looks at this they say, “That looks like the Wingman screwdriver." So, it’s about everything else. It’s not about the world’s best screwdriver it is about the world’s best access to a multi-tool screwdriver."
-Peter Parker
You know what I am going to say right? :facepalm: Equal too or better than my foot. Also, now I know where Sony's Spiderman went to work after those two terrible movies (not the new ones). The U.S. Economy strikes again. :rofl:
I feel like he just said...HEY! IGNORE THE TOOLS INSIDE! Don't I look fancy in this new package?
Yes. the quality and function of the internal tools really does matter a lot. Basically what this tells me is that they are not trying to create Multi-tools that have components that are equal to the real thing (like Rebar Philps) , but instead want to make tools that get the job done....unless its a hard job....then get some real tools...
:facepalm: :rant:
That last part is what I said. It seems LM, even on the sale page for the Free series seems to be selling the form and fiddle factor of the tools, but not the actual function. Quite frankly, I see no improvement over my ST300 and it's a much cheaper tool. I just hope LM doesn't start axing models like the Rebar and ST300 in favor of the Free line. Both have 3D Phillips and good drivers on them; the Free has what is basically Wingman guts.
https://www.leatherman.com/blog/everyday/the-making-of-leatherman-free?j=514946&sfmc_sub=24036377&l=75_HTML&u=15127805&mid=7279667&jb=28&utm_source=SFMC&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=190523_Blog_Feature_USA
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 25, 2019, 01:58:15 AM
Did i just call GLBM a hipster? :DYou miserable son-of-a-smurf herder! I don't have to take your badgering tonight, sir! :rant:
Sorry man, i know you will take it the right way :cheers:
Hold on. I said that ironically. :D
Maybe the Free series is Leathermans Apple Watch. An overprized gadget that nobody wants for real work, but all the hipsters pay big money to own it and show it off.Couldn't agree more. It is sweet, slick, and fun to play with. But, ask me to chose it or a Charge as a tool for life, and the answer won't be the P4. :multi:
Post by: genevabuck on May 25, 2019, 02:10:29 AM
That last part is what I said. It seems LM, even on the sale page for the Free series seems to be selling the form and fiddle factor of the tools, but not the actual function. Quite frankly, I see no improvement over my ST300 and it's a much cheaper tool. I just hope LM doesn't start axing models like the Rebar and ST300 in favor of the Free line. Both have 3D Phillips and good drivers on them; the Free has what is basically Wingman guts.
https://www.leatherman.com/blog/everyday/the-making-of-leatherman-free?j=514946&sfmc_sub=24036377&l=75_HTML&u=15127805&mid=7279667&jb=28&utm_source=SFMC&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=190523_Blog_Feature_USA
You wouldn’t want a ST300 with outside access tools?
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 25, 2019, 02:41:54 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 25, 2019, 03:12:04 AM
I would also like to clarify that the P series does not have what is basically Wingman guts. The tools are notably different. That said, the P series is a smurfload of fun to play with, while the Rebar and ST300 are workhorses. The P series works quite well, and while not as well as the Rebar/300 at driving screws, it isn't even close to being a junk toolset. The P has excellent scissors and probably one of the best main MT blades of all time. IMO
Thats all fine and I know the P-series has quality implements, but their statements are still nonsense. Why are they gunning for the Wave? And how do they account for the discrepancy in available tools? Calling it STRICTLY better is a really silly thing to do...and they keep doing it! Why not go after GERBER or SOG so they are not cutting into their own market share.
What they are doing is the equivalent of Apple coming out with a new ipad and bashing their Mac platform...
Post by: genevabuck on May 25, 2019, 03:53:23 AM
Thats all fine and I know the P-series has quality implements, but their statements are still nonsense. Why are they gunning for the Wave? And how do they account for the discrepancy in available tools? Calling it STRICTLY better is a really silly thing to do...and they keep doing it! Why not go after GERBER or SOG so they are not cutting into their own market share.
What they are doing is the equivalent of Apple coming out with a new ipad and bashing their Mac platform...
Read the article above. They are not gunning for the Wave. The article is impressive.
Post by: genevabuck on May 25, 2019, 04:09:32 AM
Maybe the Free series is Leathermans Apple Watch. An overprized gadget that nobody wants for real work, but all the hipsters pay big money to own it and show it off.
Did i just call GLBM a hipster? :D
Sorry man, i know you will take it the right way :cheers:
While I doubt that Apple watches are done, they seem to be the new thing in the Marine Corps, I also doubt that this technology Free technology is as well. I mean a Rebar or ST300 with outside opening tools and those clean movements. It is coming. Only a Leatherman hater would oppose it.
Post by: ReamerPunch on May 25, 2019, 04:16:31 AM
https://www.leatherman.com/blog/everyday/the-making-of-leatherman-free?j=514946&sfmc_sub=33192871&l=75_HTML&u=15127805&mid=7279667&jb=54&utm_source=SFMC&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=190523_Blog_Feature_USA
Peter: And I’m Peter Parker. I’ve been here for 9 years and I’m also a design engineer.
Billy: What did you do before that?
Peter: I was a photographer in New York.
Billy: Do you have pictures of Spider-man?
Post by: genevabuck on May 25, 2019, 04:27:48 AM
Peter: And I’m Peter Parker. I’ve been here for 9 years and I’m also a design engineer.
Billy: What did you do before that?
Peter: I was a photographer in New York.
Billy: Do you have pictures of Spider-man?
Thanks Donald. Moving on.
Post by: SirVicaLot on May 25, 2019, 04:57:50 AM
While I doubt that Apple watches are done, they seem to be the new thing in the Marine Corps, I also doubt that this technology Free technology is as well. I mean a Rebar or ST300 with outside opening tools and those clean movements. It is coming. Only a Leatherman hater would oppose it.
I am by no means a Leatherman hater. I own several of their tools and i am really happy with them. However i am not swallowing everything they try to feed me. I stand by my opinion about the Free series, if you do not agree that is fine, but don‘t call me something i am not.
Post by: SirVicaLot on May 25, 2019, 05:00:23 AM
You miserable son-of-a-smurf herder! I don't have to take your badgering tonight, sir! :rant:
Hold on. I said that ironically. :D
Couldn't agree more. It is sweet, slick, and fun to play with. But, ask me to chose it or a Charge as a tool for life, and the answer won't be the P4. :multi:
:D :cheers:
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 25, 2019, 05:05:39 AM
I am by no means a Leatherman hater. I own several of their tools and i am really happy with them. However i am not swallowing everything they try to feed me. I stand by my opinion about the Free series, if you do not agree that is fine, but don‘t call me something i am not.I don't get the feeling you're a hater. :cheers:
There are some members with a heavy disdain for LM, but those guys are usually marked by the fact that they don't own any LMs. They also usually don't even bother posting in LM threads.
My solution:
Buy every brand. As many models of each as possible. Give up a normal life to play with MTs and surf MT.o during time off.
Boom....The sexy
(http://i.imgur.com/ycvgn5b.jpg)
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 25, 2019, 05:08:52 AM
:D :cheers::cheers:
I may have a little latent hipster in me. While I never ran with hipster crowds, I lived in Brooklyn, NYC for several years. Perhaps plaid shirts and ironic bag phones wore off when my guard was down. :rofl:
Post by: SirVicaLot on May 25, 2019, 05:10:14 AM
Post by: SirVicaLot on May 25, 2019, 05:12:16 AM
:cheers:
I may have a little latent hipster in me. While I never ran with hipster crowds, I lived in Brooklyn, NYC for several years. Perhaps plaid shirts and ironic bag phones wore off when my guard was down. :rofl:
Don‘t worry, your love for tools balances it quite nicely :tu:
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 25, 2019, 05:12:28 AM
While I doubt that Apple watches are done, they seem to be the new thing in the Marine Corps, I also doubt that this technology Free technology is as well. I mean a Rebar or ST300 with outside opening tools and those clean movements. It is coming. Only a Leatherman hater would oppose it.I like and agree with your sort of floodgate theory. The Free P could just be the platform for much better tools in the future. And the Free P is a great place to start. LM really stepped up their game with the Free series. I still feel the fit & finish are top-tier. My P4, with weeks of carry, has performed quite well. It just needs, in the future, to accommodate awesome existing features(bit exchanger and blade exchanger and some other stuff) from other tools. :like:
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 25, 2019, 05:18:58 AM
Sounds like a plan :cheers: „Buy as many models as possible“ starts as soon as you enter MT.o :DThat works too. :cheers: :rofl:
Don‘t worry, your love for tools balances it quite nicely :tu:Many thanks! :cheers:
Post by: genevabuck on May 25, 2019, 05:27:27 AM
Post by: comis on May 25, 2019, 07:34:23 AM
I like and agree with your sort of floodgate theory. The Free P could just be the platform for much better tools in the future. And the Free P is a great place to start. LM really stepped up their game with the Free series. I still feel the fit & finish are top-tier. My P4, with weeks of carry, has performed quite well. It just needs, in the future, to accommodate awesome existing features(bit exchanger and blade exchanger and some other stuff) from other tools. :like:
Local distributor didn't seem to have it yet, but am still on the fence whether I should get one oversea. But I do agree with your experience, that whether it will become a LM classic, history will tell. However, :hatsoff: to LM for trying, and it is this kind of innovative spirit keep pushing the industry forward and giving us more options. :tu:
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 25, 2019, 08:02:28 AM
I'm hoping the P series can win tool of the year. :)
Post by: ReamerPunch on May 25, 2019, 12:22:06 PM
"Yeah, you’re probably wondering what does it do? Well, it does everything the Wave does equal to or better. It’s important to note, that’s not the selling point of this new collection. Look at these screwdrivers… we have not taken these screwdrivers to a new level of, let’s call it, “screwdriver-ness". That is if anybody looks at this they say, “That looks like the Wingman screwdriver." So, it’s about everything else. It’s not about the world’s best screwdriver it is about the world’s best access to a multi-tool screwdriver."
-Peter Parker
You know what I am going to say right? :facepalm: Equal too or better than my foot. Also, now I know where Sony's Spiderman went to work after those two terrible movies (not the new ones). The U.S. Economy strikes again. :rofl:
I feel like he just said...HEY! IGNORE THE TOOLS INSIDE! Don't I look fancy in this new package?
Yes. the quality and function of the internal tools really does matter a lot. Basically what this tells me is that they are not trying to create Multi-tools that have components that are equal to the real thing (like Rebar Phillips) , but instead want to make tools that get the job done....unless its a hard job....then get some real tools...
:facepalm: :rant:
Yeah, that whole approach left me wondering too.
"it does everything the Wave does equal to or better"
Kind of, for some things, like the scissors. Sure. But there are things that the Wave does better.
Look at these screwdrivers… we have not taken these screwdrivers to a new level of, let’s call it, “screwdriver-ness". That is if anybody looks at this they say, “That looks like the Wingman screwdriver." So, it’s about everything else. It’s not about the world’s best screwdriver it is about the world’s best access to a multi-tool screwdriver."
Why? :think:
Why not go with better screwdrivers than what are in there now? Why not the bit driver, or at least the square shank Phillips that takes the adapter? Access is nice, but why go a step backwards regarding implements? Why not have the best of both worlds?
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on May 25, 2019, 01:37:30 PM
While I doubt that Apple watches are done, they seem to be the new thing in the Marine Corps, I also doubt that this technology Free technology is as well. I mean a Rebar or ST300 with outside opening tools and those clean movements. It is coming. Only a Leatherman hater would oppose it.
So, we're back to this now, are we ... ? ::)
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 25, 2019, 03:32:09 PM
Edit: almost forgot, SAKs can go suck eggs too.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on May 25, 2019, 04:26:26 PM
Maybe the Free series is Leathermans Apple Watch. An overprized gadget that nobody wants for real work, but all the hipsters pay big money to own it and show it off.
I said something similar a while back, but got shouted down for it, because I hadn't been daft enough to buy one :D
As to the earlier quote...
Quote
"it does everything the Wave does equal to or better"
... there's two ways to read that:
It does everything the Wave does, and does it equal to or better than the Wave
Or
It does everything the Wave does, but the Wave does it equal to or better than the Free
:think:
The Wave does most things better, except perhaps scissors, and tool access. Although the Wave also does a better job at not giving you tools you don't want, when to really don't want them :P
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 25, 2019, 05:22:17 PM
I said something similar a while back, but got shouted down for it, because I hadn't been daft enough to buy one :DPretty smug statement, is it not? :think:
I didn't see where anyone went back and quote mined your early assertions(concerns if you will) about the P series, and then discussed how incorrect they were after the fact. Maybe don't label people who bought a P2/P4 "daft". It's quite rude in my opinion.
Post by: gadgetman7 on May 25, 2019, 08:38:48 PM
Unfortunately, it’s still 420HC and this ain’t BOS 420HC. It dulls easily compared to even my low end Spydercos.
The tool stock on the flat drivers is thin. I actually bent the ruler but was able to bend it back. Too much torque I guess.
The lack of a bit holder is unfathomable. The Philips screwdriver works pretty well but has almost stripped a couple of large screws. That’s where the bit adapter with a 1/4” bit works well. Also, there is no way to drive Torx screws.
The file is almost useless for me. Whoever green lighted that design should be fired.
I find that the lock release tabs can dig in to your hand if you aren’t careful how you hold the pliers.
The tools popping out is annoying but not a deal breaker.
All in all, I’d say the tool load out is not better than the Wingman and inferior to the Surge, Wave/Surge, ST300 and Rebar.
I rarely carry it now and carry either my Charge or Skeletool with a Surge in my bag.
This tool is just a toy to me now. That’s a shame because it could be such a great platform.
Just my opinion...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: Max Stone on May 25, 2019, 09:51:39 PM
Post by: Wspeed on May 25, 2019, 09:55:32 PM
That will have tools that I would use like a bit holder
A 1/4” driver that can take sockets would be good idea
If they would make something with those
tools would definitely make me want one :tu:
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on May 25, 2019, 10:09:43 PM
The Free isn't a bad tool, and if you've never used a Wave/Charge or Rebar/ST300, or a Swisstool/Spirit in your life, you won't find anything wrong with it and it will probably get the job done 99% of the time.
Biggest problems with the Free in my opinion are:
- overhyped by Leatherman marketing
- overpriced (Leatherman should put it between the Rebar and the Wave price-wise)
- very strong "in-house" competition with the Rebar/Wave/Charge series
It has its pros and cons, but so does any other multitool. Multitools are always a bit of a compromise.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on May 26, 2019, 12:03:24 AM
Pretty smug statement, is it not? :think:
I didn't see where anyone went back and quote mined your early assertions(concerns if you will) about the P series, and then discussed how incorrect they were after the fact. Maybe don't label people who bought a P2/P4 "daft". It's quite rude in my opinion.
And once again, I won't be censored for other people's oversensitivities ;) The smiley should have been at least a hint that it wasn't an entirely serious point. As to being incorrect after the fact, I don't know if any (or how many) of my serious concerns have been disproven yet. :think: Besides which, some people didn't wait, they just shouted me down straight away for having the audacity to have an opinion without intention to buy :whistle: (BTW - I only replied/quoted that post when I did, because I'd only just read it ;) )
I’ve tried carrying a P4 for several weeks. It does have some good points, I like the new locking system and the shape of the knife blade is good.
Unfortunately, it’s still 420HC and this ain’t BOS 420HC. It dulls easily compared to even my low end Spydercos.
The tool stock on the flat drivers is thin. I actually bent the ruler but was able to bend it back. Too much torque I guess.
The lack of a bit holder is unfathomable. The Philips screwdriver works pretty well but has almost stripped a couple of large screws. That’s where the bit adapter with a 1/4” bit works well. Also, there is no way to drive Torx screws.
The file is almost useless for me. Whoever green lighted that design should be fired.
I find that the lock release tabs can dig in to your hand if you aren’t careful how you hold the pliers.
The tools popping out is annoying but not a deal breaker.
All in all, I’d say the tool load out is not better than the Wingman and inferior to the Surge, Wave/Surge, ST300 and Rebar.
I rarely carry it now and carry either my Charge or Skeletool with a Surge in my bag.
This tool is just a toy to me now. That’s a shame because it could be such a great platform.
Just my opinion...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
:o That's quite a list. Not better than a Wingman is quite a poke in the eye for LM. I can understand people feeling the Wave is the stronger tool, and from what I've seen, I'd probably feel the same way (the Wave being closer aligned to my own preferences). Rating it no higher than their entry level tool, particularly after a few weeks of carry, is quite a damning report. Thanks for your insights :salute:
That said, I'd much rather have a driver that distorts like that, then one that breaks or chips. So while you took that ruler driver past its limit, you still managed to retain its functions. That's a slight improvement in my book (in my experience, the older flat drivers were more likely to have a bite taken out of them, rather than deform), though the taper and recessed screw limitations would still be a deal breaker for me.
I know you've said the blade steel dulls fast, but does it take a decent edge quickly when you sharpen it? (again, I tend to prefer ease of sharpening over edge retention - just another quirk of mine)
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 26, 2019, 12:26:28 AM
Seems most new LM releases result in a huge dumpster fire thread. :rofl:
I apologize for writing you were being rude, though I feel people who bought a P2/P4 are not "daft". There are many reasons, of which most aren't foolish, to buy a tool that they want. Your reasons not to buy have absolutely no bearing on other's reasons to buy. IMO of course.
Post by: Mike 56 on May 26, 2019, 01:33:49 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190525/810c72480eb170fbe73ff432a4c35a28.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Poncho65 on May 26, 2019, 01:49:50 AM
Post by: Radrler on May 26, 2019, 04:10:47 AM
I'm hoping the Free series does accomplish one thing: drive down the retail prices for the older models. A little? pretty please?... Seriously, paying 140 bucks for a Wave and 200 for a Charge TTI is insane.
Post by: SirVicaLot on May 26, 2019, 04:19:15 AM
would come up with something we could argue about :D
I would really be interested in peoples opinion about the P2/4 that are not MT-enthusiasts. If they go to a store and just want to get some tools to work around the house and then think „hey, maybe i could give one of those mt‘s a shot“.
If someone like that sees a Wingman right next to the P2, with a similiar tool compliment, would they buy the tool that is $60 or the one for $120.
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 26, 2019, 04:32:57 AM
It is kind of like seeing if a layperson would see any benefit from a $89 Wave and $169 Charge TTi. Though my example is a bit closer in appearance, laypeople buy $10 tools all of the time and can't say enough good things about them. The P2/P4 are definitely enthusiast tools in my humble opinion. But, that said, you make a good point about laypeople and the P2/P4. Now, throw in the variable of them seeing an ad where it was flippidy dippidy flung about and a tool pops out, I would give heavier credence to a layperson's thoughts towards the P4 over a Wingman.
One-hand outboard access without any fingernail breaking is really outstanding. And that is something that hasn't been mentioned all that much by anyone for some reason. Everyone is comparing it to the Wave and Spirit, when the P series does two things that the others cannot, which is why there are compromises. That is one-hand tool access and no fingernail requirements. Even if one chooses to use two hands to open a tool, you don't need fingernails. Little finger nubs would work fine. The only other MT that can boast that is the Leatherman OHT, but that is not very attractive and smooth compared to the P2/P4. The fit & finish of the P2/P4s(1x P2 and 2x P4) are at the top of the precision spectrum.
I won't cover the negatives again, since I did that many times in many posts, as did others.
Sorry this post kind of ran on and on. :ahhh
Post by: SirVicaLot on May 26, 2019, 04:44:36 AM
They will realize that at home, once they open the package and start mess with it.
An MT-enthusiast knows all that, because they have done research on that tool. That is were i have a hard time following LMs reasoning.
If they want to sell the P2/4 to laypeople, it needs to be cheaper. If they, on the other hand, want to sell to MT-enthusiasts, they need a different tool compliment. 3D Phillips, bit driver and so on. I just do not understand the way they think :think:
Post by: gregpost on May 26, 2019, 05:43:39 AM
Maybe this goes to why they were making a direct comparison to the Wave. You can read some of the behind the scenes development process for the Free series in this article.
How Tim Leatherman Created the Iconic American Multitool (https://www.mensjournal.com/gear/leatherman-multitool/)
“He said that our patents" on the Leatherman Wave ”are going to run out, and we won’t be able to protect it from copies,” Lazenby recalls. “‘We need you to make it faster, cheaper, smaller, lighter.’ Which is impossible.” Still, he hunkered down and eventually emerged with the Free series.
Post by: SirVicaLot on May 26, 2019, 06:01:11 AM
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 26, 2019, 06:14:29 AM
I would agree, i am just not sure if a layperson that has never used a mt before, would know that outside opening tools are better. Or care about that at all. I think they also don‘t know that you can deploy the tools with a finger flip instead of pulling them out.:iagree: & :cheers:
They will realize that at home, once they open the package and start mess with it.
An MT-enthusiast knows all that, because they have done research on that tool. That is were i have a hard time following LMs reasoning.
If they want to sell the P2/4 to laypeople, it needs to be cheaper. If they, on the other hand, want to sell to MT-enthusiasts, they need a different tool compliment. 3D Phillips, bit driver and so on. I just do not understand the way they think :think:
Though, with those points and mine, there is one fact. The Free P2/P4 seems to be massively popular at the moment and with a relatively low defect report. Many(and I am willing to say most personally) complaints seem to be geared towards what the P2/P4 doesn't do by design, and not what is actually wrong with the P2/P4. That's good news for the owners, users, and collectors.
LM's absolutely smurf-brained marketing approach has really caused a more-than-deserved amount of negativity for the P2/P4. IMO. Leatherman, stop doing that crap. It isn't a Wave killer, so treat it like what it is, a fidget-spinner of MTs that works as the directions state.
And I'm not letting LM off with any reason about Wave patents though. Patents for the PST have been expired for eons, and no company has really copied the essence and feel of the PST. Almost all PST clones are pretty bad, and the good ones are mediocre. Yeah, Chinese produced tools have gotten much better, but most still don't work out as well as LM's old designs. The ones that do are pretty expensive, so why not shell out a bit more cash and get the excellent CS and US build. The Wave would be even more difficult to make a proper clone(some say homage) of. I own enough MTs to get a feel of where the Chinese produced tool market is at in terms of overall use and feel(quality-wise). The decent Chinese tools are definitely knocking on LM tool pricing these days, but still suffer poor-steel treating, QC problems galore, and bad customer service.
Another example that has been discussed here is the Vic SwissTool. For $100, you'd think a Chinese company would have made a SwissTool killer for $50, but it hasn't happened. Not even close.
Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the Chinese tools I have bought and used, but cannot honestly say that any of them would stand a chance of dethroning my LMs, Vics, SOGs, Bear Jaws, or Gerbers.
Even when Chinese tool companies get a good platform and decent tool, there is always something jacked up about the design. One example is the WorkPro HD. Fine tool, great design, and looks great. But, they smurfed up the pliers execution big time....then never tried to rectify the problem, and those tools are $40-$50.
Post by: gregpost on May 26, 2019, 06:15:30 AM
That „cheaper“ part for sure did not work :D Thanks for the link, interesting read after all :tu:
They probably meant cheaper to make.
Post by: Dutch_Tooler on May 26, 2019, 09:57:55 AM
Leatherman was worried about the Wave patents expiring and cheap Chinese copies with increased quality flooding the market for a much lower price than the Leatherman Wave. So they wanted a new platform. That seems kind of gimmicky to me and also missing the point of why people buy Leatherman tools. It's a company that stand by their products and they're very tough tools to begin with.
Maybe this goes to why they were making a direct comparison to the Wave. You can read some of the behind the scenes development process for the Free series in this article.
How Tim Leatherman Created the Iconic American Multitool (https://www.mensjournal.com/gear/leatherman-multitool/)
“He said that our patents" on the Leatherman Wave ”are going to run out, and we won’t be able to protect it from copies,” Lazenby recalls. “‘We need you to make it faster, cheaper, smaller, lighter.’ Which is impossible.” Still, he hunkered down and eventually emerged with the Free series.
Thanks for the link as I would have loved to read about TL's thinking... however I get a "Not Authorized 403" error.
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 26, 2019, 11:58:57 AM
Thanks for the link as I would have loved to read about TL's thinking... however I get a "Not Authorized 403" error.
Here is the text, D_T! :tu:
Quote from: LM story with silly excuses and reasoning
Chances are you’ve got a Leatherman tool somewhere. Maybe it’s in your backyard shed or your car’s glove box or, perhaps more likely, in that catchall kitchendrawer, next to the triple-A batteries and rubber bands. It’s not just a fixture in the lives of men. It’s also a pop-culture mainstay, appearing in A Quiet Place, Speed, Battlestar Galactica, even in Tom Cruise’s hand in Oblivion. The Leatherman resonates for a million reasons but also for one: It’s a symbol of Americana, that rare, functional totem with the durability to be passed down from father to son. Which is a nice sentiment but also a challenging business proposition for the Portland, Oregon–based company: How do you get people to replace something that’s guaranteed for 25 years and basically never breaks? Especially if a man is—gulp—emotionally attached to it?
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Inside America’s Toughest Survival School
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01:07
That’s the question I want to ask Tim Leatherman, the 70-year-old inventor of the Pocket Survival Tool, as it’s officially known, as we sit down for dim sum in honor of the tool’s first major redesign in nearly 20 years. But first I have to ask: Is the dude’s last name seriously Leatherman? It’s as if LeBron’s last name were Dunksalot.
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Leah Nash
He smiles at the question. Tim is tall and lanky, like a geeky stunt double for Clint Eastwood, and over the sound of a waitress taking our order, he says: “So many people think that Leatherman is a 100-year-old company that used to be in the leather-making business.” It’s not. And the product’s name could have been a whole lot less iconic: At first, Tim almost called the tool Mr. Crunch, “because of the clamping feature.”
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The 7 Best New Rain Jackets to Keep You Dry This Season
That was in 1980, when he patented his design and was simply looking for someone to produce it, never imagining that one day it would go to space—in the pocket of NASA astronaut Donald Pettit—and be endorsed by The New York Times, last year, as the best multitool on the market, edging out competitors from companies like Gerber and Victorinox.
Of all the uses for the multitool, here’s one you never considered: Ben Rivera, the CEO of Leatherman, used the scissors on his to cut his baby’s umbilical cord. I mostly use mine to open packages from Amazon. But the mission is the same: The gadget is meant to save you a trip to get the just-right tool because this one does a little bit of everything.
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Leah Nash
The new Leatherman design, called the Free series, does the same thing. It’s just a whole lot easier to use. And the innovation isn’t semantic. The original Leatherman was famous for its butterfly design. Sure, you’d have to open the thing to find what you needed—the screwdrivers, the knife, the tiny saw—but at least it was all there. With the Free, the tools are now facing out, so you don’t need to open it up to get at one. The tools are also accessible by pushing down on a metal release with your thumb. With practice, you can open anything you need with one hand without looking.
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Exposing the Impacts of Palm Oil, One of the Most Corrupt and Damaging Industries on Earth
That magic trick comes courtesy of head designer Adam Lazenby, 36, a man who lives on a sailboat and bicycles to work and has run into more than his fair share of moments requiring a multitool. According to Lazenby, the tool’s five-year journey to market began in a conference room in Portland at the direction of the product manager for the category.
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Leah Nash
“He said that our patents”—on the Leatherman Wave—”are going to run out, and we won’t be able to protect it from copies,” Lazenby recalls. “‘We need you to make it faster, cheaper, smaller, lighter.’ Which is impossible.” Still, he hunkered down and eventually emerged with the Free series.
Taking on impossible tasks is baked in to the company’s DNA. Tim Leatherman was an aimless mechanical engineering student in 1970 when he met his wife, Chau, in a Portland State dorm basement, where he was playing ping-pong. In 1975, the newlyweds bought a run-down Fiat 600 for $300 and set off across Europe and the Middle East on a 17-country road trip with the hope of answering that eternal question: What are we going to do with our lives?
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The Essential Ski Gear for Far North Adventure
In a possibly apocryphal story, fate intervened. The car had wiring issues and leaky hoses that needed repair. Tim, who is admittedly not handy, also encountered plumbing issues at the budget hotels where they stayed. After checking in to one in Tehran, he channeled his frustrations into a sketch for what he craved: “a Boy Scout knife with pliers.”
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Leah Nash
For three years he worked on building a prototype in a garage in Portland while Chau paid the bills by helping to resettle families fleeing communist Vietnam. Tim eventually patented his idea and tried to sell it to knife companies (which dismissed it as more of a tool), then to tool companies (which believed it was a gadget that wouldn’t sell). After getting the brush-off from potential buyers including AT&T and the U.S. military, Leatherman realized he’d need to manufacture the thing himself.
It took eight years to get the Pocket Survival Tool into anyone’s pocket. The PST made its debut in 1983 in a catalog you’ve never heard of and, 10 years later, Leatherman, still a private company, was selling more than a million units a year. A follow-up called the Wave was introduced in 1998 and became a million-unit seller almost overnight.
Today, Leatherman employs 500 people and its tools are sold in more than 80 countries. On a recent trip to Australia—to mark the company’s 35th anniversary—Tim encountered a woman with dreadlocks who performed a song she’d written in honor of the tool, singing: “If I didn’t have my Leatherman, I’d be so much deader than I am.”
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Leah Nash
The Free launches in April, and a folding knife version, the Free K Series—with a 3.35-inch stainless steel blade—will go on sale in August. Lazenby started sketching in 2014, and fairly quickly he came up with the idea of tools facing outward.
“You need two hands to use the Wave,” he says. “But if you put the tools on the outside, it’s obvious where everything is. I want the Phillips screwdriver? It’s right there.”
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Hit the Gym in the Best New Training Gear of 2019 (So Far)
The overhaul was obvious enough, he says, flipping the Free prototype in his hand the way an ’80s movie villain flings a switchblade. But making it a reality was a nerd’s errand. Lazenby, who previously worked on hydrogen fuel cells, starts talking about the process, going into absurd detail about the magnets that hold the knife, and how the size of the new pliers’ handles makes it virtually impossible to pinch yourself. And about the “epic haptics,” which is another way of saying the tool makes a cool noise when it snaps shut. He catches himself rambling and admits: “To the rest of the world, it’s a tiny detail some geek is excited about. But I’m that geek. And I was excited.”
Tim Leatherman, who is semiretired—and a new grandfather—is pretty excited, too. He walks me through the company’s 90,000-square-foot production facility, where the tools are manufactured with the finest U.S. steel. Tim interacts cheerily with the employees on the line, marveling at the robotics used to cut and polish the steel. For the record, he carries the Charge Ti, which stands for titanium, and while the tool is pricey, he shrugs. “As the owner,” he says, “I think I have permission to carry the deluxe version.” Smiling through eyeglasses that double as safety goggles, he outlines a challenge I hadn’t thought of.
“There’s a lot of knockoffs coming from China,” he says. “The price is about one-tenth of ours, but the quality is about one-twentieth. Nevertheless, the day is going to come when the price is 50 percent of ours but the quality is 80 percent. We’re trying to be proactive.”
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Leah Nash
He dreams of a day when his team can squeeze a homing beacon inside the tool. He’s fairly certain that would be a hit, though he acknowledges that not every innovation has connected with customers. We walk past a photo gallery of an evolution of the product line, and we soon come to a tool I’d never heard of called the Flare. “It had a fork and a pâté knife,” Tim says. A pâté knife? Like for slicing duck terrine in an emergency?
He laughs. “We thought the European picnicker would be our prime market. That turned out not to be true. I guess they decided it wasn’t a good idea to change your oil one minute, then picnic the next with the same tool.”
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A Brief History of the Leatherman
Since debuting in 1983, the multitool has become a household name. Here’s how.
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The Original
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Leatherman
Tim Leatherman’s invention took eight years to develop and manufacture. It was the first multitool that incorporated a pliers, and it sold 10 million units.
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The Expanding Line
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Leatherman
Today, Leatherman produces more than 25 items, including knives, accessories, a wearable watch that comes with 20 tools, and shears called the Raptor, above.
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The 2019 Free Series
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Leatherman
Debuting in April, the device retains the classic folding design of the original but incorporates the tools on the outside of the folded-up unit, which are accessible by a new push-open feature.
Post by: SirVicaLot on May 26, 2019, 02:39:37 PM
:iagree: & :cheers:
Though, with those points and mine, there is one fact. The Free P2/P4 seems to be massively popular at the moment and with a relatively low defect report. Many(and I am willing to say most personally) complaints seem to be geared towards what the P2/P4 doesn't do by design, and not what is actually wrong with the P2/P4. That's good news for the owners, users, and collectors.
LM's absolutely smurf-brained marketing approach has really caused a more-than-deserved amount of negativity for the P2/P4. IMO. Leatherman, stop doing that crap. It isn't a Wave killer, so treat it like what it is, a fidget-spinner of MTs that works as the directions state.
And I'm not letting LM off with any reason about Wave patents though. Patents for the PST have been expired for eons, and no company has really copied the essence and feel of the PST. Almost all PST clones are pretty bad, and the good ones are mediocre. Yeah, Chinese produced tools have gotten much better, but most still don't work out as well as LM's old designs. The ones that do are pretty expensive, so why not shell out a bit more cash and get the excellent CS and US build. The Wave would be even more difficult to make a proper clone(some say homage) of. I own enough MTs to get a feel of where the Chinese produced tool market is at in terms of overall use and feel(quality-wise). The decent Chinese tools are definitely knocking on LM tool pricing these days, but still suffer poor-steel treating, QC problems galore, and bad customer service.
Another example that has been discussed here is the Vic SwissTool. For $100, you'd think a Chinese company would have made a SwissTool killer for $50, but it hasn't happened. Not even close.
Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the Chinese tools I have bought and used, but cannot honestly say that any of them would stand a chance of dethroning my LMs, Vics, SOGs, Bear Jaws, or Gerbers.
Even when Chinese tool companies get a good platform and decent tool, there is always something jacked up about the design. One example is the WorkPro HD. Fine tool, great design, and looks great. But, they smurfed up the pliers execution big time....then never tried to rectify the problem, and those tools are $40-$50.
:iagree: :like:
Post by: SirVicaLot on May 26, 2019, 02:40:42 PM
They probably meant cheaper to make.
That would make sense. But than it would be even worse to sell it for the price they are selling it atm.
Post by: Dutch_Tooler on May 26, 2019, 03:14:40 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 26, 2019, 05:40:42 PM
Thanks GLBM :tu::cheers:
Post by: gadgetman7 on May 26, 2019, 10:54:43 PM
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Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 27, 2019, 01:53:04 AM
Cheers
Post by: AimlessWanderer on May 27, 2019, 08:52:30 PM
I’ve posted a lot of negatives but I should clarify something. While I don’t like the current configuration, this could absolutely best the Wave/Charge with just a few changes. P2/P4 still has the best lock and the design has all of the elements to be great. I hope there’s a version 2 that addresses our complaints.
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I've not exactly been positive myself :D but I too like the looks of that locking mechanism. I think they could prevent the accidental tool deployment with it too, while still keeping the tool one hand opening, with a bit of tweaking of the tool tangs. That would be a big step towards improving the safety. (You'd have to release the locks to deploy the tools, but it would be no difficult that one hand closing, which nobody seems to have an issue with)
The tapered drivers are a noob error that should never have happened, but they keep repeating that for some reason (I think the Rebar was the first tool they did it on). Reducing handle splay was another improvement they made here, but it sounds like they ruined it with pokey bits. I'm surprised it took them so long to bring the handles nearer. I'm not holding out much hope of them stopping impeding the main gripping area either. That's another flawed (in my opinion) design element that they keep repeating. I really cannot understand why they do that. There seems to be no benefit to it whatsoever.
They did get some stuff right on this tool, there's just too much that's badly wrong (including the price) for me to get any benefit from the design improvements though. :-\
Post by: PiterM on May 28, 2019, 09:56:56 AM
Also I can tell you... metal file and magnets on the same tool is a terrible idea in a long run :facepalm:
Post by: ReamerPunch on May 28, 2019, 10:50:53 AM
for the price of P4 I could get here BOTH Surge and Super Tool 300, both with premium sheaths.
:o :facepalm:
Post by: PiterM on May 28, 2019, 12:01:49 PM
So as much as I like Leathermans (got Surge, Wave, Skeletool CX, Minitool, PST, Micra) I simply don't understand P4 pricing pattern here:
(http://pmgallery.pl/pmhosting/tools_pln.jpg)
Post by: SirVicaLot on May 28, 2019, 03:02:12 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on May 28, 2019, 03:15:44 PM
And I'm not kidding... here's a screen. You can purchase: Super Tool 300, Surge and extra bit kit for Surge (or premium sheaths for both) and in total same price as P4.
So as much as I like Leathermans (got Surge, Wave, Skeletool CX, Minitool, PST, Micra) I simply don't understand P4 pricing pattern here:
(http://pmgallery.pl/pmhosting/tools_pln.jpg)
Holy moly!
Honestly if we are just talking tools, I'd pick the surge every single time at those prices. I really love that Leatherman is pushing the boundaries, and there is major potential here..but the Free is not like the PST in its time. The frame is solid, the mechanism is great, the ergo needs a slight modification, and Some of the internal tools could be upgraded..but its an exciting time for Leatherman and multitools. After finding the Leap which is one of the newer showings, I have a lot of hope for what they can provide.
Especially with the other projects happening here on MT.org. Two things need to happen for me to invest...price drop (because I will have to spend a lot more to mod it properly), and a true Diamond/Cross cut file over the serrated blade.
Cheers,
H.G.
Post by: Dutch_Tooler on May 31, 2019, 11:06:07 AM
Post by: Wspeed on May 31, 2019, 12:38:45 PM
Post by: gerleatherberman on May 31, 2019, 02:33:51 PM
Nice :like: :tu:
+1 :iagree:
Post by: Dutch_Tooler on May 31, 2019, 11:04:49 PM
Post by: JonesE on June 01, 2019, 01:39:42 AM
JonesE
Post by: gerleatherberman on June 01, 2019, 03:00:09 AM
Quick question? Is any one else looking forward to the release of the Free “T” series? I am curious to see how these are going to be received.I'm excited, but I think the excitement for the rest of the Free line has been dampened a lot from the high amount of criticism of the P2/P4's price and not being like the Wave.
JonesE
Hopefully that'll die down a bit for the T and K series.
Personally, I think the P4 is the best fidget factor multitool out there. LM really smurfed up by comparing it to the Wave, which is a pure user tool. I still play with the P4 nearly everyday and keep it by the computer monitor. But, that said, my Charge has been going to work with me.
The prices of the T and K look pretty competitive as it stands and I think those are going to be more popular since they aren't so expensive.
Post by: PiterM on June 02, 2019, 12:08:13 AM
Post by: Wpgwave on June 02, 2019, 02:45:35 AM
I'm excited, but I think the excitement for the rest of the Free line has been dampened a lot from the high amount of criticism of the P2/P4's price and not being like the Wave.If Leatherman would have released this under different brand name, I doubt there would be so much hate.
Hopefully that'll die down a bit for the T and K series.
Personally, I think the P4 is the best fidget factor multitool out there. LM really smurfed up by comparing it to the Wave, which is a pure user tool. I still play with the P4 nearly everyday and keep it by the computer monitor. But, that said, my Charge has been going to work with me.
The prices of the T and K look pretty competitive as it stands and I think those are going to be more popular since they aren't so expensive.
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Post by: gerleatherberman on June 02, 2019, 03:29:14 AM
If Leatherman would have released this under different brand name, I doubt there would be so much hate.
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There is that as well indeed, though that assertion will be vehemently denied. :facepalm:
I wouldn't want to brand everyone who has criticized the P2/P4 as haters, as most have had reasonable concerns. However, the over-zealous nature of a few concerns made me realize that there is a deep seeded issue on MT.o with regards to Leatherman. Seems a vibe of genuine or inadvertent want to paint modern-Leathermans as overpriced/lower-quality, while painting Victorinox as flawless(I don't generally see the issue with other big brands).
Oh well, it ain't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. :)
Post by: AndyTiedye on June 02, 2019, 03:49:11 AM
SURGE FREE TTI
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Post by: SirVicaLot on June 02, 2019, 04:06:10 AM
If Leatherman would have released this under different brand name, I doubt there would be so much hate.
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I don‘t think the issue is the name. Yet the name is kind of ironic, don‘t you think?
Post by: gerleatherberman on June 02, 2019, 04:17:31 AM
I don‘t think the issue is the name. Yet the name is kind of ironic, don‘t you think?I think he means the Leatherman brand. Like if Vic, Gerber or SOG would have produced the Free P2/P4, there wouldn't be as many bookoodles of posts shining a negative light on the tools, particularly from some who haven't handled one. :)
That was how I understood it anyway. :multi:
Post by: Happy Gilmore on June 02, 2019, 04:19:17 AM
There is that as well indeed, though that assertion will be vehemently denied. :facepalm:
I wouldn't want to brand everyone who has criticized the P2/P4 as haters, as most have had reasonable concerns. However, the over-zealous nature of a few concerns made me realize that there is a deep seeded issue on MT.o with regards to Leatherman. Seems a vibe of genuine or inadvertent want to paint modern-Leathermans as overpriced/lower-quality, while painting Victorinox as flawless(I don't generally see the issue with other big brands).
Oh well, it ain't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. :)
From what people have said, the tools are definitly not low quality. However, the actual design of the internal tools leaves me :think: Leatherman has a ton of experience with their other tools already. The Philips and Flat drivers seem excellent, the scissors seem excellent, as do the other longer implements. My only grip is are thinner implements. I'd feel personally much more confident if they had fewer, more robust tools. I have come to the conclusion that my favorite MTs have been those that are specialized like the Crunch/Signal/Raptor etc. When it comes to doing the most possible with the strongest tools...how do you compete with the Surge/ST300/SwissTool/Spirit? It is true that the P4 has a ton of functions technically, but even for a MT they are massively compromised tools.
Even with the thinner tools I don't think $140MSRP is too expensive at all. Not for a %100 USA made tool of this quality. If I could get a diamond/Cross cut file instead of the serrated blade and the new 4mm bit driver being designed in the other thread I would be super excited. For now though I'll hold off because of how happy I am with my Wave/Rebar Hybrid, Surge, Spirit, and Signal. Especially since I've modified the spirit and Rave to be nearly completely OH operational.
I have a very very unusual viewpoint. What I want to ask those who have the P series is would you recommend it to someone who has no multi-tools at all?
I wonder if they cool factor alone is the gateway drug Leatherman is counting on.
Cheers,
H.G.
Post by: gerleatherberman on June 02, 2019, 04:29:34 AM
Answering the recommendation question:
I always recommend a LM Rebar or Gerber MP600. Solid, US made, excellent strength, reliable, and low maintenance. And just $30(for Gerber)/$50(for Rebar) on sale or $20-$30(Gerber)/$30-$40(LM) used. :)
Post by: Happy Gilmore on June 02, 2019, 04:37:23 AM
Good points, Happy Gilmore! :cheers:
Answering the recommendation question:
I always recommend a LM Rebar or Gerber MP600. Solid, US made, excellent strength, reliable, and low maintenance. And just $30(for Gerber)/$50(for Rebar) on sale or $20-$30(Gerber)/$30-$40(LM) used. :)
That brings up really good point. As amazing as the Free is...is $140 justifiable for entry level? Probably not. I feel like the crowd they are really looking to target are the same individuals going to knife shows and spending $350 on a single folding knife.
Post by: gerleatherberman on June 02, 2019, 05:07:11 AM
That brings up really good point. As amazing as the Free is...is $140 justifiable for entry level? Probably not. I feel like the crowd they are really looking to target are the same individuals going to knife shows and spending $350 on a single folding knife.Indeed. From the beginning, that has been what I felt. It is worth $140 to me, because I am a hardcore multitool enthusiast and really enjoy fidget/fiddle factor. I have almost every practical multitool available, but find stuff like the Free P2/P4, SwissTools, SOG PowerAccess, and such to be a lot of fun to play with and use; even though they aren't practical for my work. :)
Post by: gadgetman7 on June 02, 2019, 01:33:58 PM
There are a lot of comments about the lack of a bit driver and the multiple flat head drivers as well as the “inexplicable” choice of an inferior steel. Most of these folks prefer the Wave or Charge.
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Post by: gerleatherberman on June 02, 2019, 06:20:08 PM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on June 02, 2019, 08:26:44 PM
If Leatherman would have released this under different brand name, I doubt there would be so much hate.
I'm not a hater, as I often get labelled, but I am certainly a sceptic of the brand. However, that's only through trying stuff and being repeatedly dissatisfied with it. While I have tried several newer tools, and handled several others, the older LM designs (and build quality) suit my preferences better.
I think all my main concerns have already been justified from buyer feedback, with the exception of the lugs on the plier head that take all the force. I didn't like the looks of that type design when I had my Rangergrip 90, but never used it hard enough to discover its limits. I didn't like that tool (I did try, but it wasn't happening, mainly due to the fat arsed scales which killed the handling) and sold it on, but the Traveller is still my favourite pocket carry Swiss knife. I've sold on and criticised plenty of Wengers, Victorinox, SOGs, Gerbers, CRKTs and several others too, but its only the LM comments that tends to get folk chasing me with pitchforks :P
While it's only natural that we do build up a bias (positively or negatively) from our previous experiences with a brand, I do try to judge tools on their own individual strengths and weaknesses. I have said several positive things about the tool through the course of this thread, but I guess my concerns and criticisms of this tool tend to be more prominent for some readers.
Post by: Wpgwave on June 02, 2019, 09:03:24 PM
I think he means the Leatherman brand. Like if Vic, Gerber or SOG would have produced the Free P2/P4, there wouldn't be as many bookoodles of posts shining a negative light on the tools, particularly from some who haven't handled one. :)This.
That was how I understood it anyway. :multi:
If leatherman created a new brand name like
“Patriot Multi-Tool” “Freedom P2/P4”, with no mention of leatherman , I honestly think the criticism would have been far more supportive. It is unlike anything that has been made in the last 30 years. It’s a good tool, it is innovative and for the first batch, I think they did a great job.
Nothing is perfect, I have many issues with my Charge+, but I really like the overall feel of the P2.
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Post by: gerleatherberman on June 02, 2019, 09:40:04 PM
Hey, we like the P series, and no matter how long the same exact criticisms stay on repeat like a broken record, it doesn't change the fact that the P2 and P4 are really good tools for certain markets. :)
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on June 02, 2019, 11:40:17 PM
I'm not a hater, as I often get labelled, but I am certainly a sceptic of the brand. However, that's only through trying stuff and being repeatedly dissatisfied with it. While I have tried several newer tools, and handled several others, the older LM designs (and build quality) suit my preferences better.
I think all my main concerns have already been justified from buyer feedback, with the exception of the lugs on the plier head that take all the force. I didn't like the looks of that type design when I had my Rangergrip 90, but never used it hard enough to discover its limits. I didn't like that tool (I did try, but it wasn't happening, mainly due to the fat arsed scales which killed the handling) and sold it on, but the Traveller is still my favourite pocket carry Swiss knife. I've sold on and criticised plenty of Wengers, Victorinox, SOGs, Gerbers, CRKTs and several others too, but its only the LM comments that tends to get folk chasing me with pitchforks :P
While it's only natural that we do build up a bias (positively or negatively) from our previous experiences with a brand, I do try to judge tools on their own individual strengths and weaknesses. I have said several positive things about the tool through the course of this thread, but I guess my concerns and criticisms of this tool tend to be more prominent for some readers.
:iagree:
I believe one of the main issues here is the difference in price between the U.S. and elsewhere. I know this might not (totally) be the fault of Leatherman alone but that means nothing to people buying Leatherman tools over here. And that might be why some Americans have a hard time understanding where some of the comments from Leatherman fans around the world come from.
For example, let's say that the Free P4 would cost $99.95 in the U.S., while the Spirit would cost $199.95 over there, wouldn't you guys say something about the insane difference in price ? Wouldn't multitool enthusiasts in the U.S. expect the Spirit to blow the Free P4 away, considering the huge price difference ? And would you guys like it if expressing your feelings/concerns about this would only end up with you being labeled as "Victorinox Hater" (in case of this example), even after you've paid at least double the price for each Victorinox Tool in your collection (again, in this example) ... ? I can only speak for myself, but for me, that hurts, plain and simple ...
By the way, that example is exactly how it is over here, my P4 cost me 199,95€, while I can easily find a brand new Spirit for 99,95€.
But I feel like I keep repeating myself here, trying to explain my point of view, maybe I should just throw in the towel on this subject ::).
Here's where I stand on the P4, I've been carrying my P4 during my free time (no pun intended :P) for several weeks now and it hasn't let me down yet, but in all honesty I have to admit that I haven't come across anything really challenging for it either. I feel the P4 is a bit like Harvey Two-Face in the Batman series, one side looks great (the one with the Phillips and the big flat driver/pry bar) while the other ... well, not so much :-\.
But like I said, it hasn't let me down so far, and I do like the looks/feel and fiddle factor of it. But for some reason I still take my Wave + with me on my belt when I go to work :think:.
P.S.: I don't think the name Free has anything to do with all of this, people here are not that shallow.
Post by: McStitchy on June 02, 2019, 11:52:09 PM
But I also like that others do enjoy their P2/P4.
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on June 02, 2019, 11:59:20 PM
I agree with AW and TG.
But I also like that others do enjoy their P2/P4.Then here I was writing some more but....
Hey, I enjoy my P4 as well :twak:.
But I would enjoy two of them (and probably two P2's as well) if they weren't so d*mn expensive ... :whistle:
Post by: McStitchy on June 03, 2019, 12:05:05 AM
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on June 03, 2019, 12:06:07 AM
:D :hatsoff:
:cheers:
Post by: AimlessWanderer on June 03, 2019, 12:09:43 AM
I agree with AW and TG.
But I also like that others do enjoy their P2/P4.Then here I was writing some more but....
Absolutely! :salute:
I have on many occasions recommended a tool that I personally don't like, because I thought the tool would maybe suit them better than it did me. While I do express my own personal opinions on a wide range of tools and components, I certainly don't want to detract from or diminish anybody's enjoyment of ANY tool they enjoy and get good service from. :cheers:
Post by: gerleatherberman on June 03, 2019, 02:24:38 AM
Cheers fellas. :cheers:
Post by: gregpost on October 10, 2019, 07:05:01 PM
And I'm not letting LM off with any reason about Wave patents though. Patents for the PST have been expired for eons, and no company has really copied the essence and feel of the PST. Almost all PST clones are pretty bad, and the good ones are mediocre. Yeah, Chinese produced tools have gotten much better, but most still don't work out as well as LM's old designs. The ones that do are pretty expensive, so why not shell out a bit more cash and get the excellent CS and US build. The Wave would be even more difficult to make a proper clone(some say homage) of. I own enough MTs to get a feel of where the Chinese produced tool market is at in terms of overall use and feel(quality-wise). The decent Chinese tools are definitely knocking on LM tool pricing these days, but still suffer poor-steel treating, QC problems galore, and bad customer service.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF05G4QP4wA
Leatherman knew what was coming. That's why they needed new IP and wanted to market the newest tools as being better than the Wave design. These Walmart knockoffs are under $40 and will be even cheaper pretty soon. The Leatherman Wave format has always been the best innovation in multitools. I would imagine now several Chinese companies will copy the design and the quality of the clones will get better or more varied.
(https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/0ea87847-a5dc-4278-8e03-acd065d90c25_1.3de17213d99de889e55a65c0a33b2725.jpeg)
Post by: Max Stone on October 10, 2019, 08:59:57 PM
But I do like the full-size bit holder in the pic above. :like:
Post by: mikekoz on October 11, 2019, 12:24:51 PM
Post by: Aloha on October 11, 2019, 03:20:16 PM
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on October 11, 2019, 05:00:14 PM
If I stumble across one for a price I'm willing to pay, I'll pick one up. I'll likely be fiddle factor for me but who knows :dunno:.
Fiddle factor is one of the reasons why my Free P4 has become my most carried EDC multitool these days
I've said it before, I'm not a heavy tool user so the Free will easily deal with all the chores that cross my path. But even though I'm quite confident that it will handle heavier tasks as well, my mind still makes me grab my Wave/Charge or Surge for the heavier stuff.
And indeed, fiddle factor is extremely high on the Free, it's a fun tool to play with and it looks great. Only negative point in my opinion is the retail price, which is insane.
Over here prices on the Free P4 have dropped from 199.98 € to 189.98 (169.98 € to 159.98 € for the P2). A couple of months after I bought a P4 as one of the first in Belgium, I got a 20 € discount code from Leatherman.be when they lowered the P4 prices, to reward me for being a loyal Leatherman fan.
Very nice Belgian Leatherman importer, very nice :tu:.
Post by: Monrogue on October 12, 2019, 03:36:21 AM
Post by: Aloha on October 12, 2019, 06:20:51 AM
Post by: Monrogue on October 12, 2019, 10:00:20 PM
I'm all about fiddle factor :tu:. I've yet to play with one so I might have to take a trip to a store where they have them.
Do eeeet man!
Post by: JasonJ on October 14, 2019, 07:56:56 PM
Leatherman was worried about the Wave patents expiring and cheap Chinese copies with increased quality flooding the market for a much lower price than the Leatherman Wave. So they wanted a new platform. That seems kind of gimmicky to me and also missing the point of why people buy Leatherman tools. It's a company that stand by their products and they're very tough tools to begin with.
Maybe this goes to why they were making a direct comparison to the Wave. You can read some of the behind the scenes development process for the Free series in this article.
How Tim Leatherman Created the Iconic American Multitool (https://www.mensjournal.com/gear/leatherman-multitool/)
“He said that our patents" on the Leatherman Wave ”are going to run out, and we won’t be able to protect it from copies,” Lazenby recalls. “‘We need you to make it faster, cheaper, smaller, lighter.’ Which is impossible.” Still, he hunkered down and eventually emerged with the Free series.
From the article:
"It took eight years to get the Pocket Survival Tool into anyone’s pocket. The PST made its debut in 1983 in a catalog you’ve never heard of and, 10 years later, Leatherman, still a private company, was selling more than a million units a year."
Wait.. what? Cabela's is, was and always has been a fairly well-known brand, even when they were predominantly catalog sales.
Post by: Rapidray on October 14, 2019, 09:17:14 PM
Post by: gregozedobe on October 15, 2019, 03:42:25 AM
From the article:
"It took eight years to get the Pocket Survival Tool into anyone’s pocket. The PST made its debut in 1983 in a catalog you’ve never heard of and, 10 years later, Leatherman, still a private company, was selling more than a million units a year."
Wait.. what? Cabela's is, was and always has been a fairly well-known brand, even when they were predominantly catalog sales.
And the Early Winters catalogue was briefly (1983-1984) quite popular (until they went broke), and obviously sold quite a few of the original PSTs. If you come across an old PST with only Pat 4238862 and a customer's name stamped on the handles it is most likely an Early Winters version made at the same time as the original Cabela's PSTs.
Post by: carl on November 25, 2019, 04:42:18 AM
I would LOVE a P4, but cannot justify the price. For about $10.00 more or so, I can get a Charge with 154 or S30 steel on the blade. If this ever gets to around $100.00, I may pick one up. I like the looks of it and know it is a good quality tool.
This site is selling the P4 for $119.96 but is it legit or fake?
https://www.leathermanbest.shop/free-p4-stainless-steel-21-tools-p-27.html
Post by: carl on November 25, 2019, 09:43:04 AM
https://www.leathermanbest.shop/free-p2-stainless-steel-19-tools-p-16.html
Post by: Poncho65 on November 25, 2019, 12:47:33 PM
Post by: italophil on November 25, 2019, 03:55:35 PM
This site is selling the P2 for $99.96 but is it legit?
https://www.leathermanbest.shop/free-p2-stainless-steel-19-tools-p-16.html
I saw that last week as well and it looked too sketchy for me: The domain was registered with GoDaddy and a location in Shanghai only 3 month ago. The contact info is a mobile home park in Washington state. The phone number seems to belong to a woman in Indiana.
Post by: Poncho65 on November 25, 2019, 08:38:56 PM
Post by: NKlamerus on December 25, 2019, 07:20:22 PM
First major downfall is the lack of mini driver, already needed one for some glasses! (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191225/59ab6ce6f287219013abda8c28bf1bbc.jpg)
Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
Post by: Max Stone on December 25, 2019, 08:53:09 PM
(PST-II my December EDC)
Post by: Wspeed on December 25, 2019, 11:27:54 PM
Post by: Max Stone on December 25, 2019, 11:52:14 PM
Just discovered the locking tabs hotspots when using the pliers. >:(
I understand LM had to change the design so you can release the tools with the handles closed, but compared to the rounded end comfort of my Wave, the P2 is stepping backwards.
Can technical innovation take precedence over user comfort? :dunno:
Post by: Poncho65 on December 26, 2019, 02:39:17 AM
Nice ones NKlamerus and Max :like: :tu:
:iagree: :salute: :like:
Post by: Rapidray on December 26, 2019, 03:34:34 AM
Finally in the clubNice :tu:
First major downfall is the lack of mini driver, already needed one for some glasses! (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191225/59ab6ce6f287219013abda8c28bf1bbc.jpg)
Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
Post by: Rapidray on December 26, 2019, 03:34:55 AM
Joined the club today too...somehow not quite as excited as other LMs I’ve acquired. Maybe a little jaded from all the forum chatter this year. Still, a good MT, but will need to spend some time with it in Jan before forming a clear opinion. :think::like: :cheers:
(PST-II my December EDC)
Post by: JBW1 on December 26, 2019, 04:01:19 AM
Finally in the club
First major downfall is the lack of mini driver, already needed one for some glasses! (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191225/59ab6ce6f287219013abda8c28bf1bbc.jpg)
:think::like: :cheers::iagree:
Post by: Max Stone on December 26, 2019, 10:25:12 PM
Post by: genevabuck on December 27, 2019, 01:51:24 AM
I thought those deep serrations on the P2 looked familiar...
Nice catch.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on December 27, 2019, 02:40:45 AM
I thought those deep serrations on the P2 looked familiar...
Wow!! Are serrations that deep on the p4 blade as well?!? That's really bad design. Will get hung up constantly
Post by: Rapidray on December 27, 2019, 03:31:00 AM
I thought those deep serrations on the P2 looked familiar...:like: :cheers:
Post by: Max Stone on December 27, 2019, 06:16:48 AM
Wow!! Are serrations that deep on the p4 blade as well?!? That's really bad design. Will get hung up constantlyNot got a P4 so can’t check. But it’s been commented before that the serrations on the P2 are too deep. Even deeper than the Kershaw A100 in the picture.
Post by: Barry Rowland on January 26, 2020, 08:10:48 PM
Post by: Wspeed on January 26, 2020, 09:50:00 PM
Post by: Rapidray on January 27, 2020, 01:29:44 AM
Post by: Barry Rowland on January 27, 2020, 01:48:36 AM
I thought those deep serrations on the P2 looked familiar...
Post by: Poncho65 on January 27, 2020, 12:41:36 PM
Post by: Poncho65 on January 17, 2022, 04:26:57 AM