Multitool.org Forum
Tool Talk => The Mod Squad => Topic started by: PTRSAK on December 20, 2012, 02:22:23 PM
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As promised in another thread I have put together a photo essay on the process of fitting Wenger scissors into the 84mm size Victorinox knives.
As a bonus, while I was at it, I decided to see if the Wenger saw can be fitted in a similar manner. (yes it can)
On the subject of the Wenger parts, if you pick up an eBay Handyman or Forester you can get both scissors and saw in one hit. As these tools are generally used less than the blade they are normally in good condition, even on tired looking knives.
For this demonstration I will use a Victorinox Tinker small as the Base knife, a Recruit for the two backsprings, Wenger scissors and saw from a Traveller and a Backpacker and a pair of my own Carbon fibre frames/scales. When we get to the end, we will have an Artisan clone (Carbon).
I much prefer the name Artisan to Fieldmaster-small. That sounds too much like a vertically challenged DJ to me.
If we started with a Tourist (corkscrew) we would get a Huntsman-small.
So, without further ado, let us begin...
I won’t show breaking down the donor knives, I think anyone can figure that out, and it’s covered in other threads.
After the strip, the parts are cleaned and then have an appointment with my buffing wheel. Hey... we want this thing to look pretty.
This ends us up with a pile of parts.
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_194833_zpsc1cfdd57.jpg)
And here is the secret to this mod... grab a couple of tools from your junk box or use parts from the donor Recruit (actually, check to see if they are better condition than your base knife first.) and make the two parts seen here. Mine were made from a 91mm opener and a borked main blade. These go on the "short" end of the recruit backsprings and allow a double end spring to be used for a single tool layer. They also act as the rest that the tool sits on in the closed position. The one for the saw needs to be angled so the saw sits on its end and not on the points of the teeth
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_195417_zps599a5717.jpg)
Carbon fibre frames which I started making for a recruit but drilled the 4th hole in one so I had them “spare” and they are perfect for this job.
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_195925_zpsc057ed3e.jpg)
Here are the parts from the Tinker-small
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_200203_zps60b6eb95.jpg)
The Wenger parts I’ll be using. This is the older style saw with a nail nick, later ones are a tooth longer and protrude past the end of the rest similar to Vic’ saws. The later Wenger saws are also slightly lower in profile at the tip and may look slightly tidier in the Vic frame. Not that the one I’ve used here sticks out excessively anyway. In fact after tuning the height of the rest it sits with the nail nick just comfortably above the scissors but the overall profile is still lower than the main blade, just like it should be.
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_200031_zpsf8469748.jpg)
The Recruit backsprings. These drop straight in with the pin positions of the Tinker, so no hassles there. Use the blade layer spring (the thicker one) for the scissors and the opener layer spring (thinner) for the saw.
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_195518_zpsf2000050.jpg)
For the knife I’m building here I need three liners. Luckily I have plenty of recruit liners in my junk box so I was able to find three to use. I know they’re not pristine, but I like reusing old parts, giving old knives new lives, you could say. If I was doing this mod to a new Cadet or Bantam I would probably make new brass or titanium liners.
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_195839_zpsa71d5f59.jpg)
Peen one end of a set of pins to get started. If you are working with a Celidor scaled knife you will thread a bushing onto each pin too... you did save them when you broke the donor knives down right?
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_200314_zpsec7003e4.jpg)
Thread the front scale onto the pins, I prefer working in this direction for a couple of reasons. Firstly you have a flat side to build up from without the corkscrew or driver sitting out past the frame and secondly your nice pre peened heads on the pins will end up on the front of the knife and the peened in-situ tails will be round the back. Notice the Mylar washers around the pins, I find the carbon frames can be a bit draggy if I don’t fit these. Shim brass would work just as well.
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_200535_zpsd9132a42.jpg)
Opener layer built up
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_200754_zps56f7d6fa.jpg)
First liner fitted
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_200843_zps4d6e4f82.jpg)
Saw layer built up including close-ups. Note: There was no grinding or cutting work performed to get the saw and backspring to mate up like this, it just fits.
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_201351_zpsaa4029ca.jpg)
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_201435_zpsf162ba32.jpg)
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_201734_zpse3af49e5.jpg)
Scissors layer, again no work to the tool or backspring, they just fit.
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_201950_zps9e21ca4f.jpg)
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_201930_zps68b4b005.jpg)
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_202009_zpsf3143e4f.jpg)
Blades layer going together
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_202219_zps1f8aa3bb.jpg)
The assembled knife... it’s peening time.
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_202521_zps8ce41766.jpg)
I use an old liner and a pair of flush cutting side-cutters to get the length “just right” and consistent.
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_202948_zps72b02109.jpg)
A quick touch with a fine file
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_203035_zpsd6564ef0.jpg)
and...
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_202720_zpseeb2e5e0.jpg)
A good thing about the carbon fibre is that it is very resistant to marks, with a steady hand and a bit of care I can get away without needing to protect the scales. I’d NEVER try that with Alox.
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_203119_zpsecc45db3.jpg)
All peened up, and a light touch on the riveted tails with the buff and everything is smooth and shiny.
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_204223_zps79b4021e.jpg)
A few close-ups of the technical parts.
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_204250_zps27e41ab2.jpg)
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_204258_zps8105aadd.jpg)
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_204313_zps990fc5a3.jpg)
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_204336_zpsa10f14f4.jpg)
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_204423_zpsd99da3e5.jpg)
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_204441_zpsa5ff69a9.jpg)
The finished article...
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_204802_zps956df845.jpg)
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_204849_zps918e14f9.jpg)
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_204858_zpsab88907e.jpg)
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121220_204954_zpsb22bf16c.jpg)
All the layers have good snap open and closed and as you can see from the photo's the Wenger tools fit in nicely and don't look obviously out of place.
I'm happy enough with it that it will feature prominently in the EDC rotation.
If I was doing this again I would probably look for a sportsman to get the nail-file, but I also prefer the Phillips to the corkscrew, so that would mean three donor knives. but you can always build something up out of the leftovers.
Thanks for looking. I hope I have inspired some of you to give the Wenger scissors mod a try.
It's certainly easier than finding genuine 84mm Vic scissors (I have a pair but they're probably going in my Cadet.) and I'd say it's a bit easier than hacking 91mm scissors and spring into the 84mm chassis.
Just realised I didn't take closed tools pics of each layer to show how they sit.. :facepalm: next time, I'm not pulling it apart again now.
cheers
Peter
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Fantastic! Really really really really great! Innovation galore! New scissors, new saw, carbon fiber, Mylar, even recycling! Glad I could give you a touch of inspiration too!
One question though, could backtool springs be used for the scissors and saw springs? Or are recruit smooth backsprings required due to space requirements?
You sir have officially blown open the 84mm mod scene, there is gonna be some scary stuff soon.
"Space Artisan!"
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Nice job!
A few things though:
How exactly did you account for the difference in thickness between the scissors and the can-opener rest?
You used 91mm parts? Aren't they wiffling around due to their larger pivot hole?
Can you take an image like this?
(http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/9227/p1010900h.jpg)
I'd love to see how the springs align with opened scissors and saw.
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Bravo! Great to know the scissors can be moved there. :salute:
I do like the Wenger scissors, it's just the bobbing up and down part as you cut that kept me from loving them.
But.. now there is a possible solution if you took two backsprings of half thickness, one for the scissors spring action and one to keep them open. Ive wanted to do that mod for awhile, but now you've shown I can do that mod AND keep it on a Vic. So... Someday I gotta try that. The list of cool things to try is getting to long though. :D
Keep up the great modding work, and I look forward to you next trick!
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Excellent walk-through mate. :cheers:
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Excellent walk-through mate. :cheers:
+1 Agree. :salute: I think you finally solved a very old problem. Sticky material I say. :D
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Excellent walk-through mate. :cheers:
+1 you make it look easy!
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Love it :salute:
Really nice job, and superb pics for everyone else to be inspired by :D
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Amazing work mate :drool:
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Work of Art!
And excellent lanyard choise too.
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more pic's of the fitting together
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121221_053341_zpsf08d660f.jpg)
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121221_053418_zps85417a88.jpg)
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121221_053437_zpsaac74165.jpg)
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/20121221_053500_zpsf4994b66.jpg)
There is a little bit of clearance on the sides of the spacer in the scissors layer, but it's 0.4mm spread over the two sides... It really is negligible. I guess I could hunt out an old thick tang main blade, or make a custom spacer from aluminium, but this works and it's easy to do. I'm planning to EDC this knife for a while as a bit of a road test ,so we'll see how it holds up.
The spring tension holds the parts in place without them rattling around, no different to the oversize hole in the locking Wenger screwdriver. The difference in size in very small and in fact it probably helps things line up.
Thanks for the props everyone. I'm really just doing this stuff for fun and having nice people say nice things about it makes it all the more enjoyable.
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Are the springs flush with the liners once the tool is exposed?
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As assembled the two recruit springs sit about 1mm proud in both open and closed position for both scissors and saw.
This could be tidied up with a little light grinding on the pad of the working end of the spring. I guess I'm a bit of a 90% kind of guy. I tend to get distracted by the next :gimme:shiny thing before I get the last of the fine tuning and polishing finished.
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Now that I have acquired pretty much all the donors I need for my 3 potential mods- farmer plus scissors, mini farmer plus scissors, and one more secret mod, I think I'll heap even more praise on ya! Great job man! After years of folks complaining about the scissors and limited saws on 84mm, the (perhaps all too obvious) solution has been found. Maybe the folks at Vic have been secretly chuckling about our ineptitude-in a Swiss accent "it fits right in, can't you see?!?"
If anyone has a waterjet, I'd prob go in on a couple sets of precut 84mm CF scales if a group order was put in.
Cheers
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Very nice job :tu: JR
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Bravo! Great to know the scissors can be moved there. :salute:
I do like the Wenger scissors, it's just the bobbing up and down part as you cut that kept me from loving them.
But.. now there is a possible solution if you took two backsprings of half thickness, one for the scissors spring action and one to keep them open. Ive wanted to do that mod for awhile, but now you've shown I can do that mod AND keep it on a Vic. So... Someday I gotta try that. The list of cool things to try is getting to long though. :D
Keep up the great modding work, and I look forward to you next trick!
How would you get two half thickness backsprings? Grind down two springs or are there half tickness springs available?
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Bravo! Great to know the scissors can be moved there. :salute:
I do like the Wenger scissors, it's just the bobbing up and down part as you cut that kept me from loving them.
But.. now there is a possible solution if you took two backsprings of half thickness, one for the scissors spring action and one to keep them open. Ive wanted to do that mod for awhile, but now you've shown I can do that mod AND keep it on a Vic. So... Someday I gotta try that. The list of cool things to try is getting to long though. :D
Keep up the great modding work, and I look forward to you next trick!
How would you get two half thickness backsprings? Grind down two springs or are there half tickness springs available?
Yep grinding down thicker ones.
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Aren't the Wenger pivots a touch wider than 84mm vics (2.5mm rather than 2.2mm)? Is that even enough to make a difference if the pinning is done correctly? Or would the spring give enough pressure to even things out?
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How about this for a logo for these hybrid SAKs
(http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s640/Peter_Thorpe/Weng-Vic_zps00b50a23.jpg)
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It looks like the CF is quite smooth. Does the sak feel slippery in your hands?
Cheers
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I've just done a hands on side-by-side comparison with a pair of new condition Vic' cellidor scales and the CF is a little more grippy than unworn standard scales.
Kind of like the difference between running your finger along Perspex (acrylic) and Lexan (polycarbonate). they are both smooth, but your finger glides along one and drags a little on the other.
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did you ever try the wenger file in place of the vic file?
thanks.
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did you ever try the wenger file in place of the vic file?
thanks.
Only got one Wenger with a file and that's a toolchest and I don't want to pull it apart. But it should fit just the same as the saw.
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thank you.
and thank you for this thread. I will be attempting this when work slows down a little.
have the donor knives, just need to sand down some pin stock
I'll be attempting to make an awl/file combo like i saw a modder do
probably try it on the wenger file first just in case something goes wrong.
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ah, I thought you meant the big metalsaw/file...if you are meaning the nail-file in place of the small blade, yes I have fitted then to Vic' knives. they need a very slight amount of material removed from the back end of the tang where the blade sits in the closed position to make the blade sit a little higher so the nail nick is accessible.
Go very slowly with a fine stone and check often, it only takes a fraction of a mm at the back of the tang to lift the tip of the blade several mm.
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Still super inspiring mod. How is it doing as an EDC?
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Looks rather spiffy. When you taking orders? :D
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The carbon seems to be standing up to use very well. The only "problem" with this knife is that the saw I used is very blunt and almost useless. It didn't worry me at the time as it was a prototype "proof of concept" build but now I might have to try and sharpen it up with my jewelers files.
I just recently bought a sheet of the 1mm carbon and I might pull this apart and do carbon liners for it too.
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Thanks for this guide. Since I couldn't bring myself to break apart a 84mm Golfer to get the scissors layer, I decided to try this Wenger method instead.
I think the effort was pretty successful. I give you the Faux-Voyageur:
(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jake-b/84mm-Victorinox/master/faux_voyager.jpg)
I made custom 2.25mm pivots by grinding down some brass rod to 2.25mm and then drilling and tapping for a 0-80 screw. I used 3/16" flat head 0-80 stainless screws. My pivots were a little too long-- originally I made them 7.25mm long but when I do this again, I'll make them 7mm or a little less.
Instead of grinding other tools down to make the rest for the scissors, I milled a custom one from aluminum. I also modeled the scale and liner in STL format. They're derived from scanning on a flatbed scanner, so they're not perfect-- but they're decent. I deburred and filed a little to get the fit that I wanted, but it didn't take much.
(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jake-b/84mm-Victorinox/master/parts.jpg)
I posted these STLs to github in case they will come in handy to someone else: https://github.com/jake-b/84mm-Victorinox
The only issue is that the pad of the original victorinox back spring is a little too big by 0.5mm-0.7mm or so. Hence, the back spring sticks out just a tad when closed. I don't really know how to solve this yet-- I guess the face of the back spring needs to be ground down but I don't know how that will affect "snap" and I don't think doing it by hand with a bench grinder is a good idea. Also I added an extra 0.1mm brass washer in between the scissors and the scale, and I don't think its necessary, so next time its apart, I'm going to take it out as it makes the end a little to thick. Both problems are not terrible, so I'm going to start carrying the knife anyway.
(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jake-b/84mm-Victorinox/master/backspring.jpg)
Anyhow, thanks to everyone on this forum for giving me the ambition to try this modding thing for myself-- and to all the individual authors for posting great pictures and how-to's.
I still like the Victorinox scissors better, so I might try the 91mm-in-an-84mm mod next. I'll still need some 84mm scissors broken out to use as a template I think. While the "micro-serrated" Wenger scissors are cool, I like that both halves of the Victorinox scissors don't move when being operated.
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Nice work. and welcome to the forum
The CAD models could be useful too.
As far as the spring goes, you can file the back (outside) of the spring at the end there without it effecting the snap very much at all.
I would stay away from filing the inside as it will effect snap and possibly the open/closed position of the scissors.
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Great work! Yep you can shave off some of the back of the backspring no problem and you wont notice loss of snap. I use a belt grinder and its pretty quick about removing material.
The 91mm scissors to 84mm works out really well actually, its just more work to get them to fit, but they function well.
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Thanks for the kind words. I really like the 84mm size and will probably play with some more modding.
I had considered getting some brass liners cut for this project, but in one-off quantities its too expensive. (I didn't want to do it by hand) Similarly, I'd love to get some hard anodized color going on, but stripping and finding and anodizing company scared me off. Silver is fine for now. Baby steps.
I hate to file down the back and lose the "factory shape" and polish of the outside of the spring, but I guess that's the "right way" to do it. I had thought that it might be okay to file down the inside pad-- that there might be a little too much snap on the scissors since the Wenger scissor's "cam" is a little wider than the cam on other 84mm Vic tools. I appreciate the advise and I'll gather up some courage to start filing the outside.
I think I might reverse the layers next time I take it apart. The nail nick for the scissors might work better on the outside. The combo tools sit higher, and are more easily grabbed than the scissors. Maybe the scissors reset needs to hold the scissors just a touch further out.
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A few pictures of the assembly-- in case it helps someone. Of main interest can see the custom milled spacers/rests and the 2.25mm custom pivots. I imagine the spacers/rests could be easily 3D printed at a service if someone wanted to replicate this knife.
(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jake-b/84mm-Victorinox/master/pivots_installed.jpg)
(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jake-b/84mm-Victorinox/master/knife_layer.jpg)
(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jake-b/84mm-Victorinox/master/scissors_layer.jpg)
Still more work to do on the back spring.
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A few pictures of the assembly-- in case it helps someone. Of main interest can see the custom milled spacers/rests and the 2.25mm custom pivots. I imagine the spacers/rests could be easily 3D printed at a service if someone wanted to replicate this knife.
(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jake-b/84mm-Victorinox/master/pivots_installed.jpg)
(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jake-b/84mm-Victorinox/master/knife_layer.jpg)
(https://raw.githubusercontent.com/jake-b/84mm-Victorinox/master/scissors_layer.jpg)
Still more work to do on the back spring.
That is tremendous. The custom pivots are brilliant. If you have an extra and don't mind to sell them I would like to buy from you.
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A few pictures of the assembly-- in case it helps someone. Of main interest can see the custom milled spacers/rests and the 2.25mm custom pivots. I imagine the spacers/rests could be easily 3D printed at a service if someone wanted to replicate this knife.
Very neat and tidy. Nice work!
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One last follow up. I had an extra back spring and decided to try grinding the inside face of the back spring. By my estimate I needed to remove about 0.5mm to get the spring to sit flush. I know a bunch of more experienced folks recommend grinding the outside to shape, but that was harder to do right, and I wanted to see how the snap was affected by using this method.
I strapped the back spring in the mill and used an indicator to insure the face in question was parallel with the axis. I also masked the mill in plastic to keep the abrasives off the ways. I took 0.001" passes with a dremel grinding attachment. In the end, I did about 30 passes, closer to 0.75mm, but I stopped and did test fits after every 10 passes. The grinding wheel itself is consumed, so its not like an end mill where you know exactly how much you're removing.
Snap is still good-- maybe not as firm as before, but it does't feel bad. I was thinking that I might need to try bending the back spring a little to give it a little more force, but I don't think I need to try that. If I made another knife, I would do it this way again I think.
In the end, the fit when closed is good... maybe not perfect, but I didn't want to remove any more material.
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Been a long time since this topic has been updated but It thought I’d add my recent experience to it.
Like many I have wanted an 84 with scissors but couldn’t really justify the prices you need to fork out for a vintage Vic even if I could get one here in the UK.
I have also had a red alox 84 that started out as a bantam but that was way to thin for me to like so I added a saw to make a lumberjack…much better.
However, I just couldn’t leave it there and after reading through this thread on several occasions I decided to sacrifice my evo18 and take the plunge.
Evo18 came apart, lumberjack came apart, and a sportsman came apart. know for the cost of those three I could have probably bought a vintage knife with scissors but I had these already so no additional outlay required :0)
The goal was essentially an alox evo18 or a huntsman with a file or a farmcadet x - whatever you want to call it.
As has been mentioned it went together remarkably easily. I did have a very broken 2.4mm blade so I made the spacer from that for an exact fit and I did grind down the pad of the spring to get it to fit flush on the scissors layer as described earlier - everything else just works as you would expect.
Although it is really a huntsman or evo 18 with less tools it is way cooler than either in the end I think and remarkably although quite a bit heavier it is only 1.75mm thicker than my economy recruit! 15.3mm vs 13.65mm.
Thanks for the inspiration. I think this is a absolute no brainier if you can put up with the Wenger scissors and have donors around already - not sure I would do it if I didn’t though as the expense would be quite huge!
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That is one hell of a good looking knife! :drool:
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Thanks Gareth, it’s finally what I think those red scales deserve! For me the 84mm alox suits a few more layers!
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Nice work. Good to see people still taking on this mod. As you say, it's not cheap if you add up the cost of donors but you do end up with a compact and capable tool.
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My red Cadet with Wenger scissors. No saw in this one.
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Close up pic's
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PTRSAK, thank you for coming up with this idea and congratulations on your peening skills, I wish all the pins on my mods looked like this :hatsoff:
Helvetica Bold, nice work. If I'm not mistaken it seems that you used a liner beside one of the scales, is there a reason for this ?