Post by: styx on September 01, 2017, 03:32:14 PM
While I understand that wet wool still keeps it's insulation value, tests have shown that it still acts like a wet piece of clothing when it comes to windchill. And I can personally attest to that.
So am I missing something with this wool outer craze? Or is it just a case of some traditional loving individuals going a bit overboard and a few too many following suit? I've always been taught to keep the warm layers under the water resistant layer, even when it comes to lighter puffy stuff (down or synthetic jackets, vests, etc.)
Post by: Aloha on September 01, 2017, 03:42:29 PM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on September 01, 2017, 04:35:09 PM
Post by: AlephZero on September 01, 2017, 04:54:15 PM
My problem is I'm somewhat allergic to wool, so I mostly get merino wool stuff, which doesn't cause the allergic reaction :tu:
Post by: AlephZero on September 01, 2017, 04:59:00 PM
Not tried those yet ;)
Post by: AlephZero on September 01, 2017, 05:02:05 PM
Post by: styx on September 01, 2017, 05:47:32 PM
Wool is also more resistant to sparks from a fire
Good point. Oilskin tarps are too. However the weight of it all leads me to a conclusion that it might be better suited for more static camp activities than active movement in wet weather
Post by: styx on September 02, 2017, 03:18:35 PM
Post by: 4everYoung on September 02, 2017, 04:45:58 PM
Post by: Fortytwo on September 02, 2017, 05:58:42 PM
I could see wool as an outer layer in dry conditions but not in wet. For all it's properties, waterproof/resistant it is not.
Hmm, I'm not sure I agree. The Austrian Loden coats are at least a bit water resistant and something like a Harris tweed suit jacket will be able to handle a bit of rain before you get wet. I don't think they are very suitable for long term exposure or really heavy rainfall but it will take you from one dry point to another without you getting wet in my experience.
Post by: styx on September 02, 2017, 07:51:38 PM
Post by: Poncho65 on September 02, 2017, 08:16:51 PM
Post by: Smashie on September 02, 2017, 09:08:56 PM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on September 02, 2017, 09:18:55 PM
:whistle:
:P
Post by: Aloha on September 02, 2017, 09:19:31 PM
Post by: Aloha on September 02, 2017, 09:23:30 PM
Seems to work for sheep :shrug:
:whistle:
:P
The fiber we know as wool that comes from sheep is made up of amino acids, which are the building blocks of protein. As wool grows on a sheep, it gets keratinized, which simply means it hardens. Other examples of keratinized proteins are fingernails and hair.
Wool fibers on a sheep have flat, overlapping scales that always point away from the sheep's body. When these wool fibers get processed and made into clothing, however, the fibers are stretched out. The orientation of the scales gets mixed up and they can be pointing in any random direction.
As any shepherd will tell you, sheep do just fine in the rain and don't shrink like a wool sweater. This is because their wool fibers have scales that are all pointing in the same direction.
When they get wet, they can slide back into position without getting caught or locked into place. No felting takes place on sheep in the rain, so they don't shrink!
Sheep also produce a natural oily substance called lanolin. Lanolin covers the wool fibers of their coats, acting as a natural lubricant that prevents fibers from locking together. Lanolin also repels water, which makes sheep somewhat waterproof when they're out in the rain. This is good for sheep, since it prevents their wool from getting soaked and waterlogged, which would be very uncomfortable since they have so much wool!
Post by: AimlessWanderer on September 02, 2017, 09:51:06 PM
Post by: Aloha on September 02, 2017, 09:54:36 PM
The thought of a sheep shrinking and the rest of the flock trying to stretch it back to shape is amusing, please don't spoil it :D
:rofl:
Or the sheep dogs hysterically laughing at shrinking sheep.
Post by: styx on September 02, 2017, 10:32:06 PM
I do find it interesting that a traditional piece of clothing in the mountain regions of Croatia (and probably neighboring countries) was a vest called kožuh made from sheep fleece (now if someone would actually explain why the hell is fleece and wool sometimes interchangeable and sometimes not this might make sense) that was worn during the winter with the "fur" on the inside and in the summer with it on the outside (apparently).
Pic of the traditional garment
(http://selo.hr/razno2/Zaobalje7.jpg)
Post by: TazzieRob on September 03, 2017, 04:57:44 AM
so you're saying that we would fair well if we put a sheep over our shoulders?
I do find it interesting that a traditional piece of clothing in the mountain regions of Croatia (and probably neighboring countries) was a vest called kožuh made from sheep fleece (now if someone would actually explain why the hell is fleece and wool sometimes interchangeable and sometimes not this might make sense) that was worn during the winter with the "fur" on the inside and in the summer with it on the outside (apparently).
Pic of the traditional garment
(http://selo.hr/razno2/Zaobalje7.jpg)
That kind of makes sense. The wool on the inside would trap warm air against the body and the flesh side would stop wind. Wearing it the other way round would insulate the body from warmer temperature and "feel" cooler with the flesh side against the body.
Post by: styx on September 03, 2017, 11:08:18 AM
Post by: Don Pablo on September 03, 2017, 11:34:10 AM
Thankfully my grandfather is from that region. Not so thankfully, apparently the clothes didn't matter as much because people also used very strong liquor (from 45 to 50% alcohol content if diluted correctly, actual product was around 65%)That seems like a rather large difference compared to a typical beer! :ahhh :ahhh
Post by: styx on September 03, 2017, 01:18:24 PM
Post by: Gerhard Gerber on September 04, 2017, 10:52:07 AM
Keep in consideration we have a mild climate, wool and fleece perform about equally for me when wet & cold......typically while fishing.
Post by: styx on September 04, 2017, 02:58:21 PM
Post by: Don Pablo on September 04, 2017, 03:26:05 PM
Post by: styx on September 04, 2017, 06:19:03 PM
Post by: jzmtl on September 04, 2017, 07:39:16 PM
Post by: styx on September 04, 2017, 10:21:17 PM
It's next to impossible to find any wool clothing in North America now, short of some boutique/outdoor brand (i.e. super expensive). I've tried some wool mid layer for winter sports but gravitated towards primaloft type, wool doesn't have good warmth/weight ratio in comparison. I'm sure it's much more durable though if you crawl in and out of trees all winter long.
last wool shirt I saw in US (they ship to Canada as well) went for $280. sounds like a lot
Post by: 4everYoung on September 04, 2017, 10:38:42 PM
So any wool product that is used in moisture wicking will not distinguish between moisture in the skin or from precipitation. It will absorb it. The only way to protect the wool is to use a DWR coating to help shed water. This really isn't an advantage of the wool bc you can really coat anything with this DWR coating for a similar result.
So comparing a wool item to another coat or fleece material really depends on more factors than just water resistance. Many synthetic materials will be better suited to use in wet weather vs wool (as well as down). For example, suppose you were hiking and found yourself completely wet from a sudden rain storm or falling in a creek and you outer layer brackets soaked. If you are wearing wool it's becomes wet and now is a heat delink sucking away you body heat. A down coat becomes utterly useless. But a premium synthetic like primaloft/thermoball will retain warmth every when soaked.
The benefits to wool over synthetic are the ruggedness and somewhat fire retardant qualities compared to synthetics. However wool
Is heavier for the amount of warmth.
Also wools like merino are excellent at odor control.
Just like any clothing choice you dress for the environment/conditions. If you where in a cooler environment that wasn't expecting a lot of rain, wool would be a fine choice. If there was rain in the forecast just add a shell over it as your outer layer as with any other situation.
Post by: AlephZero on September 05, 2017, 02:52:41 AM
When talking about wool in respects to layers I think of modern wool blends such a merino wool. Those fabrics are engineered to be used as base layers in order to wick away moisture from your skin. Many wool products used as mid layers for earth retention as well but are heavier than modern synthetics and not as warm as down.
So any wool product that is used in moisture wicking will not distinguish between moisture in the skin or from precipitation. It will absorb it. The only way to protect the wool is to use a DWR coating to help shed water. This really isn't an advantage of the wool bc you can really coat anything with this DWR coating for a similar result.
So comparing a wool item to another coat or fleece material really depends on more factors than just water resistance. Many synthetic materials will be better suited to use in wet weather vs wool (as well as down). For example, suppose you were hiking and found yourself completely wet from a sudden rain storm or falling in a creek and you outer layer brackets soaked. If you are wearing wool it's becomes wet and now is a heat delink sucking away you body heat. A down coat becomes utterly useless. But a premium synthetic like primaloft/thermoball will retain warmth every when soaked.
The benefits to wool over synthetic are the ruggedness and somewhat fire retardant qualities compared to synthetics. However wool
Is heavier for the amount of warmth.
Also wools like merino are excellent at odor control.
Just like any clothing choice you dress for the environment/conditions. If you where in a cooler environment that wasn't expecting a lot of rain, wool would be a fine choice. If there was rain in the forecast just add a shell over it as your outer layer as with any other situation.
Except you're wrong, wool keeps you warm even when when wet :pok:
Post by: 4everYoung on September 05, 2017, 06:02:43 AM
When talking about wool in respects to layers I think of modern wool blends such a merino wool. Those fabrics are engineered to be used as base layers in order to wick away moisture from your skin. Many wool products used as mid layers for earth retention as well but are heavier than modern synthetics and not as warm as down.
So any wool product that is used in moisture wicking will not distinguish between moisture in the skin or from precipitation. It will absorb it. The only way to protect the wool is to use a DWR coating to help shed water. This really isn't an advantage of the wool bc you can really coat anything with this DWR coating for a similar result.
So comparing a wool item to another coat or fleece material really depends on more factors than just water resistance. Many synthetic materials will be better suited to use in wet weather vs wool (as well as down). For example, suppose you were hiking and found yourself completely wet from a sudden rain storm or falling in a creek and you outer layer brackets soaked. If you are wearing wool it's becomes wet and now is a heat delink sucking away you body heat. A down coat becomes utterly useless. But a premium synthetic like primaloft/thermoball will retain warmth every when soaked.
The benefits to wool over synthetic are the ruggedness and somewhat fire retardant qualities compared to synthetics. However wool
Is heavier for the amount of warmth.
Also wools like merino are excellent at odor control.
Just like any clothing choice you dress for the environment/conditions. If you where in a cooler environment that wasn't expecting a lot of rain, wool would be a fine choice. If there was rain in the forecast just add a shell over it as your outer layer as with any other situation.
Except you're wrong, wool keeps you warm even when when wet :pok:
Let's leave subjective opinion alone here and discuss facts.
1. water is a better conductor of heat than is air.
2. the human body produces heat and try's to maintain that certain level of body heat.
3 the human body uses this principle to regulate its temperature in the form of sweat. Because moisture pulls body heat away quicker than air alone.
Let's look at wools properties for a moment. It is a pretty incredible fabric. On one hand it is hydrophilic (moisture loving) and on the other it is hydrophobic (moisture resistant). When configured as a typically worn coat or shirt etc the hydrophilic nature is toward the body and the hydrophobic away from the body. This allows moisture to be pulled away from the body and evaporated away. The outer is hydrophobic and resists moisture to a certain degree.
Next the structure of the wool itself is important because it provides the warmth/ heat mitigation portion. The wool structure creates tiny air pockets between the fibers. As discussed above, air is a poor conductor of heat. So these air pockets keep the body heat in.
Like I said wool is a pretty fantastic fabric.
Now what happens to wool when wet? The claim is that wool keeps you warm when wet. Well let's see how that stacks up to scientific evidence.
First let's qualify what I mean by wet. I don't mean damp, I mean wet in the sense of soaked. In regards to let's say you where wearing all your clothes and fall into an icy river. So you are soaked from outside to your skin.
Now we all know what the first thing you should do if such an event occurs. The most common training is to completely strip down our if all you clothing to bare skin.
Why is this? Again it goes back to the first part about air vs water as a conductor. While cold, you loose body heat less quickly by being naked vs wearing any or all of those garments that are now wet including the wool.
But the claim for wool is it keeps you warm while wet. So why doesn't it do so in this case if it is such a miraculous material? Simple, wool can not violate physical law.
As I discussed how wool maintains heat and its structure construction are vital to understanding this. First off, wool is not impermeable. It has a slight resistance to water on its hydrophobic side, but it will/does become saturated. Wool will absorb a certain amount of moisture and still maintaining all of its properties of warmth. It's commonly referenced that wool can absorb around 30% or 1/3 of it weight while maintaining these properties. This speaks to the efficiency of the wool to pull moisture and have it evaporated. So a wool garment weighing 10oz can actually sustain 3oz of water/perspiration before it starts to lose performance Once it reaches this benchmark the wool performances begins to decrease. This is because the fibers themselves become more saturated than they can evaporate/dry. This allows heat to escape thru the moisture in the fibers vs being trapped by those air pockets. So the more moisture the more rapid the heat loss. So if wool begins losing it properties of warmth around 30% then it exponentially increases as moisture increases. So you get colder faster at 50% saturation vs 30%. Well in my description of wet you would be at 100% saturation(or very close to it). A wet shirt or sock or wool or cotton or synthetic material all does the same thing. It acts as a heat sink rapidly drawing heat away from your body.
This is why removing it allows you a better chance to regain heat vs leaving them on.
So if all fabric suffer the same fate, then what is the big deal? Well it's not so much about how they act at full saturation but how quickly they recover and dry. While wool does recover much better than cotton products, it still takes a much longer time to dry than a synthetic product. This is because synthetic(performance based) do not absorb nearly the amount of water that wool will. Less water retention means quicker drying times because the air pockets are still insulating. Quicker drying means less moisture to pull heat from your body and therefore you become warmer quicker.
Now if we look at a real world scenario, you wear a wool coat and get caught in hard down pour leaving your coat soaked thru, you will be no warmer wearing it. Because remember a coat that is soaked thru(wet) will conduct heat faster than one that is not. So a now wet coat will become even more subjected to wind chill.
Now back to opinion: I stand by my statement that wool is a good midlayer or top layer if there isn't a lot of water or moisture. (Effectively meaning the coat won't exceed the saturation level where performance decreases. ) so you you has lite drizzle all day and you were not in it, sure it's fine. But if you are in constant rain that will soak the garment, you need an impermeable outer shell to retain your wools performance. Otherwise in a situation where saturation is highly likely a performance synthetic is a better option, simply for the quicker drying abilities.
As to the claim of wool keep you warm when wet, it is false in the broad sense. Physical science shows that to be the case. However you will have those people jumping up and down claiming to have experience to the contrary. I will say that if fully put to the test, you will see that in most instances there are more variables that have to be considered to make that claim true. Like ability of the person to accurately gauge their own drop in temperature, how much physical activity was being done to maintain warmth, what is the ambient temperature, how much saturation was the fabric actually at?
If you still think it's wrong, I challenge you to do the ice bucket challenge. Fill a cooler/ or bucket with ice water. Put one foot in the bucket bare. The other foot in the bucket while wearing a wool sock. Leave them in there long enough for the sock to get wet or as long as you can stand. Remove both feet and see which foot gets warmer faster.
If your claim is correct, the wool sock will keep that foot warmer than the bare one.
Post by: Gerhard Gerber on September 05, 2017, 08:15:39 AM
Post by: styx on September 05, 2017, 09:04:23 AM
I have several fleeces with holes burnt in the sleeves......
That is an issue I have with the modern usage of the word fleece - it can be used for wool, a wool - synthetic blend and a synthetic fabric.
In regards to wool being wet and keeping you warm, easy experiment. Put on something made from wool and see if you feel warmer or colder. Stand in front of an air current (a fan can do the job on a higher setting) and record your findings. Next add water to the clothing and repeat those two steps. Would be a lot easier if one had a thermal camera so subjectivity goes out the window and slowly adds water to simulate different kinds of weather conditions and being exposed to the same (even if caught for 5 minutes in a downpour it should be no big deal)
Post by: Syncop8r on September 05, 2017, 09:40:57 AM
If I got saturated I would take off my woolens, wring them out, then put them back on as surely the wind chill would be much less than for wet bare skin.
Fleece: the old meaning is an animals coat of wool; when people use the word these days it seems they are referring to Polar Fleece, a fabric made from polyester. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_fleece
Post by: Steinar on September 05, 2017, 11:24:40 AM
Edit: Basically the short version of what 4everYoung posted, with some extra history. :D
Post by: Gareth on September 05, 2017, 01:51:50 PM
A thick knitted wool jumper/sweater will keep you warm as a mid layer or as long as it's not getting windy or wet, and I'm sorry to say I don't believe that a soaked jumper will be keeping you warm. It might be technically better than some synthetic alternatives, but not enough to make a significant difference.
On the other hand you've also got thick, tightly woven wool coats/jackets that actually aren't so warm (tiny air pockets) but are notably wind resistant and do a very good job of keeping you dry. I've got a old Swedish Army coat and an Merchant Navy greatcoat, both of which I've worn in some terrible weather without any issues. However I'd always want to be able to dry them off overnight and they're both bloody heavy.
I've also got a few wool shirts that tread a middle ground of not being heavy, being more wind resistant than a jumper and still being warm when damp, BUT are bulky to pack and certainly not what I'd consider an outer layer when the weather turns wet and nasty.
I don't think there's a magic answer here, but I do think that it's an option if you don't expect it to be all things to everyone.
Post by: Etherealicer on September 05, 2017, 02:04:50 PM
(https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/theswissriflesdotcommessageboard/imageproxy.php?url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v15/sanglier/Coat-1.jpg)
They are nicknamed "Kaputt", meaning defective :D
Pro
- Fairly comfortable even when the sun is burning down
- Fairly rain resistant (unless you are out and about in heavy rain for a prolonged time, you will stay dry)
- Its warm
Con
- heavy when dry, real heavy when wet
- smelly when wet
- does not breath well when wet (it really gets hot in that coat)
Now this is an old wool coat and its still a fairly good choice (especially since I can get one for less than 10$), as I have no experience with modern wool Jackets/Coats I cannot comment on those. But a modern outdoors Jacket will resist rain longer and breath better and given the choice I think modern outdoor jackets outperform a coat like this by a long margin.
Post by: styx on September 05, 2017, 03:25:47 PM
Well as Syncop8r said, a big test could give us all some clue. So who's in for getting drenched to the bone and standing in the wind for science?
Btw Etherealicer, really less than $10? How the hell didn't I see those shops?
Post by: 4everYoung on September 05, 2017, 03:46:59 PM
https://youtu.be/i9A2xpJlrJQ (https://youtu.be/i9A2xpJlrJQ)
These guys do it, I'll take their word.
Post by: Gareth on September 05, 2017, 05:50:59 PM
https://youtu.be/i9A2xpJlrJQ (https://youtu.be/i9A2xpJlrJQ)
These guys do it, I'll take their word.
I'm sorry to say I'm not quite ready to do that. I'm just thinking out loud here so bear with me but; if it's that cold, why isn't the wet clothing freezing? The only answer I can think of (other than it isn't as cold as they are saying it is) is that it's the guy's body doing it and so it has to be taking warmth out of him. I'm concerned that he is feeling warm because of rapid blood flow to the skin and extremities, which isn't what you want at all. Even if that isn't the case then he's still using vital calories to keep that water logged clothing warm and that simply isn't sustainable over any real amount of time.
If I'm looking at this the wrong way please feel free to correct me. :cheers:
Post by: 4everYoung on September 05, 2017, 06:11:53 PM
https://youtu.be/i9A2xpJlrJQ (https://youtu.be/i9A2xpJlrJQ)
These guys do it, I'll take their word.
I'm sorry to say I'm not quite ready to do that. I'm just thinking out loud here so bear with me but; if it's that cold, why isn't the wet clothing freezing? The only answer I can think of (other than it isn't as cold as they are saying it is) is that it's the guy's body doing it and so it has to be taking warmth out of him. I'm concerned that he is feeling warm because of rapid blood flow to the skin and extremities, which isn't what you want at all. Even if that isn't the case then he's still using vital calories to keep that water logged clothing warm and that simply isn't sustainable over any real amount of time.
If I'm looking at this the wrong way please feel free to correct me. :cheers:
Here is the full video. At the beginning you can see the temperature on the thermometer.
Heat is built up from the body and because whatever type of synthetic material (I believe Aries branded) isn't hydrophilic. So it does not soak up water. There fore it does not lose the air insulating properties. The heat from his body is being trapped between the skin and the insulating layers. Just as it has been doing before they take a dunk. All the materials they are wearing are hydrophobic. So water is running off and draining due to gravity and what he expels from squeezing it. What moisture is left is warmed from the trapped body heat.
That's the short version anyway.
https://youtu.be/6Sx6SJf1hTU (https://youtu.be/6Sx6SJf1hTU)
Post by: Don Pablo on September 05, 2017, 06:18:30 PM
So that stuff is much better than wool, because you can dry it off much more easily then wool? :cheers:
https://youtu.be/i9A2xpJlrJQ (https://youtu.be/i9A2xpJlrJQ)
These guys do it, I'll take their word.
I'm sorry to say I'm not quite ready to do that. I'm just thinking out loud here so bear with me but; if it's that cold, why isn't the wet clothing freezing? The only answer I can think of (other than it isn't as cold as they are saying it is) is that it's the guy's body doing it and so it has to be taking warmth out of him. I'm concerned that he is feeling warm because of rapid blood flow to the skin and extremities, which isn't what you want at all. Even if that isn't the case then he's still using vital calories to keep that water logged clothing warm and that simply isn't sustainable over any real amount of time.
If I'm looking at this the wrong way please feel free to correct me. :cheers:
Here is the full video. At the beginning you can see the temperature on the thermometer.
Heat is built up from the body and because whatever type of synthetic material (I believe Aries branded) isn't hydrophilic. So it does not soak up water. There fore it does not lose the air insulating properties. The heat from his body is being trapped between the skin and the insulating layers. Just as it has been doing before they take a dunk. All the materials they are wearing are hydrophobic. So water is running off and draining due to gravity and what he expels from squeezing it. What moisture is left is warmed from the trapped body heat.
That's the short version anyway.
https://youtu.be/6Sx6SJf1hTU (https://youtu.be/6Sx6SJf1hTU)
Post by: 4everYoung on September 05, 2017, 06:30:21 PM
So that stuff is much better than wool, because you can dry it off much more easily then wool? :cheers:
https://youtu.be/i9A2xpJlrJQ (https://youtu.be/i9A2xpJlrJQ)
These guys do it, I'll take their word.
I'm sorry to say I'm not quite ready to do that. I'm just thinking out loud here so bear with me but; if it's that cold, why isn't the wet clothing freezing? The only answer I can think of (other than it isn't as cold as they are saying it is) is that it's the guy's body doing it and so it has to be taking warmth out of him. I'm concerned that he is feeling warm because of rapid blood flow to the skin and extremities, which isn't what you want at all. Even if that isn't the case then he's still using vital calories to keep that water logged clothing warm and that simply isn't sustainable over any real amount of time.
If I'm looking at this the wrong way please feel free to correct me. :cheers:
In one sense, yes. When comparing this to wool for the same purpose. Which in the case of the video would be taking a plunge into frozen over body of water. The wool would take much longer to recover from the effects of this than does this material. Do to the nature of the insulating fibers.
If you added an wind proof layer over the wool it would significantly increase the effect of the wool to not lose heat thru water convection if soaked. But then if you do that, that kinda defeats the purpose of this thread to begin with as that would make wool a mid layer not an outer layer.
Post by: MadPlumbarian on September 05, 2017, 06:40:54 PM
JR
Post by: Gareth on September 05, 2017, 08:14:18 PM
https://youtu.be/i9A2xpJlrJQ (https://youtu.be/i9A2xpJlrJQ)
These guys do it, I'll take their word.
I'm sorry to say I'm not quite ready to do that. I'm just thinking out loud here so bear with me but; if it's that cold, why isn't the wet clothing freezing? The only answer I can think of (other than it isn't as cold as they are saying it is) is that it's the guy's body doing it and so it has to be taking warmth out of him. I'm concerned that he is feeling warm because of rapid blood flow to the skin and extremities, which isn't what you want at all. Even if that isn't the case then he's still using vital calories to keep that water logged clothing warm and that simply isn't sustainable over any real amount of time.
If I'm looking at this the wrong way please feel free to correct me. :cheers:
Here is the full video. At the beginning you can see the temperature on the thermometer.
Heat is built up from the body and because whatever type of synthetic material (I believe Aries branded) isn't hydrophilic. So it does not soak up water. There fore it does not lose the air insulating properties. The heat from his body is being trapped between the skin and the insulating layers. Just as it has been doing before they take a dunk. All the materials they are wearing are hydrophobic. So water is running off and draining due to gravity and what he expels from squeezing it. What moisture is left is warmed from the trapped body heat.
That's the short version anyway.
https://youtu.be/6Sx6SJf1hTU (https://youtu.be/6Sx6SJf1hTU)
Ah, so it's the extreme hydrophobic nature of the material that's in effect here, though I can't see what it's actually made of on their site. "water moves away from heat" is a statement I'm a little confused by. :think: I'm still not 100% convinced that a material that works when wet will also work if it's frozen, so I'd not want to use it in an overnight scenario where you want to stop moving. I'd also be interested in seeing some body thermometers and thermal cameras in use rather than relying on how things "feel" as well. Of course, the fact he doesn't appear to be dying is pretty impressive. :D
Post by: styx on September 05, 2017, 08:42:00 PM
Post by: Don Pablo on September 05, 2017, 08:54:08 PM
so... no streaking?Not unless you're a polar bear
Post by: AlephZero on September 05, 2017, 08:58:52 PM
Post by: knifty on September 06, 2017, 06:19:07 AM
Wet wool is still better than no wool, let alone cotton
This. Water saturates wool, but not to the extent that a cotton garment will. That's part of the whole "wool insulates when wet" lore. Nowadays, synthetics will dry quicker than wool because they absorb less water than wool.
I assume wool's made a resurgence because people got fed up with stinky synthetic base layers, and global trade allowing merino wool from New Zealand to be spread all over the world. Merino wool is unlike most wool of the 90s in that it's a lot finer so it's not as itchy. Icebreaker and Ibex are the larger names in the States selling merino garments.
I wouldn't consider wool to be the miracle fabric for the outdoors. Benefits are that it's more odor resistant (though there's a wet dog smell in my opinion), it doesn't melt near a fire, and DEET also won't melt it. In terms of durability, it really depends on the weave, but I'd argue synthetics are more durable because they won't generally stretch and they're also generally cheaper, so you're not as precious with them.
If you plan on being wet a lot, go with synthetics. The lanolin in wool does help it shed water (you'll see water bead on the surface), but in a downpour, it's still going to soak through.
All this being said, I love my wool socks.
Post by: knifty on September 06, 2017, 06:22:10 AM
It's next to impossible to find any wool clothing in North America now, short of some boutique/outdoor brand (i.e. super expensive). I've tried some wool mid layer for winter sports but gravitated towards primaloft type, wool doesn't have good warmth/weight ratio in comparison. I'm sure it's much more durable though if you crawl in and out of trees all winter long.
LL Bean still sells wool sweaters. Though the cheaper option is to just buy an oversized wool sweater from a thrift store if you need a cheap midlayer. But you're right, synthetics have sadly taken over much of textiles. Natural fibers will soon be luxury details in a decade or so.
Post by: Aloha on September 06, 2017, 07:16:41 AM
It's next to impossible to find any wool clothing in North America now, short of some boutique/outdoor brand (i.e. super expensive). I've tried some wool mid layer for winter sports but gravitated towards primaloft type, wool doesn't have good warmth/weight ratio in comparison. I'm sure it's much more durable though if you crawl in and out of trees all winter long.
LL Bean still sells wool sweaters. Though the cheaper option is to just buy an oversized wool sweater from a thrift store if you need a cheap midlayer. But you're right, synthetics have sadly taken over much of textiles. Natural fibers will soon be luxury details in a decade or so.
This is exactly where I get my wool garments from. :salute:
Post by: 4everYoung on September 06, 2017, 08:27:33 AM
It's next to impossible to find any wool clothing in North America now, short of some boutique/outdoor brand (i.e. super expensive). I've tried some wool mid layer for winter sports but gravitated towards primaloft type, wool doesn't have good warmth/weight ratio in comparison. I'm sure it's much more durable though if you crawl in and out of trees all winter long.
LL Bean still sells wool sweaters. Though the cheaper option is to just buy an oversized wool sweater from a thrift store if you need a cheap midlayer. But you're right, synthetics have sadly taken over much of textiles. Natural fibers will soon be luxury details in a decade or so.
REI is a good source of wool products but their stuff isn't cheap.
Post by: styx on September 06, 2017, 09:06:30 AM
so... no streaking?Not unless you're a polar bear
with the amount of gray (actually white) hair, I might as well be
Post by: Gareth on September 06, 2017, 09:12:51 AM
Post by: styx on September 06, 2017, 09:26:50 AM
It's next to impossible to find any wool clothing in North America now, short of some boutique/outdoor brand (i.e. super expensive). I've tried some wool mid layer for winter sports but gravitated towards primaloft type, wool doesn't have good warmth/weight ratio in comparison. I'm sure it's much more durable though if you crawl in and out of trees all winter long.
LL Bean still sells wool sweaters. Though the cheaper option is to just buy an oversized wool sweater from a thrift store if you need a cheap midlayer. But you're right, synthetics have sadly taken over much of textiles. Natural fibers will soon be luxury details in a decade or so.
REI is a good source of wool products but their stuff isn't cheap.
You could also check out the tractor supply type stores, surplus stores and similar. About 15 years ago I got a sweater similar to the one in the picture for under $10 in an agricultural supply store and it lasted for about 12 years. It was warm and it survived the manual labor jobs
(https://image.sportsmansguide.com/adimgs/l/1/173035r_ts.jpg)
Post by: Steinar on September 06, 2017, 09:36:19 AM
Post by: styx on September 06, 2017, 11:18:30 AM
Wool is getting more and more popular here, partly on cause of the increasing awareness of problems with release of microplastics from washing clothes like synthetic fleece.
Wasn't even aware that microplastics are being released by washing synthetics
Post by: Don Pablo on September 06, 2017, 11:24:30 AM
Ditto.Wool is getting more and more popular here, partly on cause of the increasing awareness of problems with release of microplastics from washing clothes like synthetic fleece.
Wasn't even aware that microplastics are being released by washing synthetics
If there is, wouldn't you just need a filter?
Post by: Gareth on September 06, 2017, 11:38:15 AM
It's next to impossible to find any wool clothing in North America now, short of some boutique/outdoor brand (i.e. super expensive). I've tried some wool mid layer for winter sports but gravitated towards primaloft type, wool doesn't have good warmth/weight ratio in comparison. I'm sure it's much more durable though if you crawl in and out of trees all winter long.
LL Bean still sells wool sweaters. Though the cheaper option is to just buy an oversized wool sweater from a thrift store if you need a cheap midlayer. But you're right, synthetics have sadly taken over much of textiles. Natural fibers will soon be luxury details in a decade or so.
REI is a good source of wool products but their stuff isn't cheap.
You could also check out the tractor supply type stores, surplus stores and similar. About 15 years ago I got a sweater similar to the one in the picture for under $10 in an agricultural supply store and it lasted for about 12 years. It was warm and it survived the manual labor jobs
(https://image.sportsmansguide.com/adimgs/l/1/173035r_ts.jpg)
I picked up a genuine British Army surplus "Woolly Pully" and it's the warmest jumper I own by a long way. Made to be squaddie-proof, if not quite bulletproof. ;)
Post by: styx on September 06, 2017, 02:38:05 PM
Post by: Steinar on September 06, 2017, 03:23:56 PM
Wool is getting more and more popular here, partly on cause of the increasing awareness of problems with release of microplastics from washing clothes like synthetic fleece.
Wasn't even aware that microplastics are being released by washing synthetics
Just google "fleece microplastics" and you get a ton of hits like e.g. https://www.canadiangeographic.ca/article/fleece-clothing-major-contributor-microplastics-water
Post by: Steinar on September 06, 2017, 03:27:02 PM
Ditto.Wool is getting more and more popular here, partly on cause of the increasing awareness of problems with release of microplastics from washing clothes like synthetic fleece.
Wasn't even aware that microplastics are being released by washing synthetics
If there is, wouldn't you just need a filter?
The economics and engineering problems of waste water management I leave to someone else to analyze. But, at the time of writing, fibers from synthetic fleece is released in nature when washing the garments, just as cotton and wool fibers, and pieces of dirt, are. :)
Post by: Gareth on September 06, 2017, 03:34:15 PM
squaddie-proof?
Ooops. "Squaddie" is British slang for a soldier, normally of basic Private rank.
Post by: styx on September 06, 2017, 06:38:28 PM
squaddie-proof?
Ooops. "Squaddie" is British slang for a soldier, normally of basic Private rank.
Oh, thanks.
Post by: 4everYoung on September 06, 2017, 09:19:49 PM
Do you reach for wool, synthetic or cotton everyday? Just as important in relationship to your outer wear is what's under it and against your skin.
So what's your choice?
For me I typically pick a performance fleece or hoodie over my synthetic underwear. If it's raining I cover it with a Northface rain jacket. My wool is relegated to socks, hats, and my merino wool Buff(which I edc). I had a few wool sweaters but they no longer fit and are more expensive to replace. My experience is that the wool stretches and shrinks when washed. My midlayers tend to get dirty quickly due to being around locomotives. So a fay or two and they need to be washed. So wool dies faster than my synthetic stuff. All in all my favorite is either an Under armour storm hoodie or a light weight synthetic puffy. They hold up better to my uses.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on September 06, 2017, 10:23:50 PM
So we've discussed the pros and cons of the wool as an outer layer. But I'm curious what we all actually choose to wear when it comes down to it.
Do you reach for wool, synthetic or cotton everyday? Just as important in relationship to your outer wear is what's under it and against your skin.
So what's your choice?
For me I typically pick a performance fleece or hoodie over my synthetic underwear. If it's raining I cover it with a Northface rain jacket. My wool is relegated to socks, hats, and my merino wool Buff(which I edc). I had a few wool sweaters but they no longer fit and are more expensive to replace. My experience is that the wool stretches and shrinks when washed. My midlayers tend to get dirty quickly due to being around locomotives. So a fay or two and they need to be washed. So wool dies faster than my synthetic stuff. All in all my favorite is either an Under armour storm hoodie or a light weight synthetic puffy. They hold up better to my uses.
Regular daily wear - cotton, wool and synthetics
Out walking - Synthetics
Sat round a fire - wool
Post by: Syncop8r on September 07, 2017, 01:15:11 AM
- a jacket that is 43% wool (has zip pockets, good for wallet keys phone)
- a woollen hoody (very warm but pockets aren't very secure) - only if cold and it's too heavy for hiking.
- a 2.5 layer Goretex jacket, either over the woollen jacket or preferably over my (merino) mid layer if it's raining or in windchill situations.
If we're talking hiking etc then I will have either a polyester/nylon or merino shirt depending on the temperature next to the skin.
Post by: ducttapetech on September 07, 2017, 02:43:26 AM
When it is cold and working outside, pretty much same as above.
Hiking, camping, hunting, same as above. Never was a fan of synthetic, especially when it is warm. It wicks great but does not allow any air through the cool you off. Also, it does not hold up to heat, sparks, work and I had one instance where diesel fuel ruined it.
My vest/waistcoat is my usual outside layer and is made cotton canvas with a wool blanket lining. It has to get really cold before I get my coat. It is made the same way, but thicker and has sleeves. People keep telling me that cotton kills and never should wear it, but I have done fine so far. That is from temperatures of -48F to 116F. Cotton is my primary layer. Shirt, socks etc. So far so good.
Post by: Syncop8r on September 07, 2017, 03:14:45 AM
(I haven't read it myself yet)
Post by: Gerhard Gerber on September 07, 2017, 08:09:12 AM
During the "Winter" I've gone over to synthetic fleeces, my wool jerseys are old and worn and only good for around the house.
Wool hiking socks, and the rest of my hiking clothes are synthetic, which I found to be a winner.
Post by: Syncop8r on September 07, 2017, 08:32:45 AM
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2015/02/why-cotton-kills-a-technical-explanation/ :pok:OK, I have read it now, and it was very informative. :tu:
(I haven't read it myself yet)
And to answer the original question more simply, yes I wear wool as an outer layer if I'm not going to get wet (in which case I wear a rainjacket).
Post by: styx on September 07, 2017, 08:59:34 AM
Around town and for work this doesn't really apply as I'm mostly in jeans and a leather jacket or have to dress it up
Post by: Steinar on September 07, 2017, 10:55:29 AM
tl;dr: most drinking water worldwide contains plastic fibers
edit: and the irony of my posting this while wearing a synthetic fleece jacket is not lost on this poster
Post by: Syncop8r on September 07, 2017, 11:09:32 AM
Don't use cotton as a base layer for hiking! It absorbs too much water.
Post by: Gareth on September 07, 2017, 11:12:23 AM
When it comes to hiking and camping things do change up a lot and a lot more synthetics appear, quick dry trousers and shirts etc. fleece mid layers and waterproof jackets and over trousers for when it's nasty. I've discussed this in other threads before, but the one thing I really can't stand is a synthetic "wicking" base layer. I've tried a lot and spent some money, but they ALL make me sweat, far more than cotton does and that just isn't a good idea as far as I'm concerned. Lets put it this way; if I'm given the choice of a garment that is absolutely going to bring water into my clothing, beneath my mid layer and my waterproofs, I'd be nuts to wear it. Not everyone seems to have this problem, but I certainly do.
If a cotton base layer does get wet and the cold is becoming an issue, make sure you have a spare and change into it.
Post by: Syncop8r on September 07, 2017, 11:17:31 AM
I've discussed this in other threads before, but the one thing I really can't stand is a synthetic "wicking" base layer. I've tried a lot and spent some money, but they ALL make me sweat, far more than cotton does and that just isn't a good idea as far as I'm concerned.Perhaps you're sweating the same regardless, but you don't notice all the sweat that your cotton garments are absorbing, whereas it is more apparent with synthetics because they don't absorb it.
Post by: Gareth on September 07, 2017, 11:58:40 AM
I've discussed this in other threads before, but the one thing I really can't stand is a synthetic "wicking" base layer. I've tried a lot and spent some money, but they ALL make me sweat, far more than cotton does and that just isn't a good idea as far as I'm concerned.Perhaps you're sweating the same regardless, but you don't notice all the sweat that your cotton garments are absorbing, whereas it is more apparent with synthetics because they don't absorb it.
Perhaps, but I know that I've felt a lot colder and uncomfortable with synthetics than I do with a light cotton. I've done a lot of winter hiking and camping over the years now and I've experimented a lot and I know what works for me. YMMV of course and I'd not tell people they're doing it wrong, it's just what works for me. I'm also using a good old cotton string/mesh under-shirt that still retains air pockets for even if it does get damp or wet. You can't wear then on their own though and they have zero wind resistance and so a top "capping" layer needs to be put on top.
Post by: ducttapetech on September 07, 2017, 01:18:50 PM
Nooooooo! :ahhhThat is why I wear it. It absorbs sweat. Whether I am walking or swing an axe or hammer, it is all still work and I am gonna sweat. The cotton sucks it up then evaporates, keeping me nice and cool. And if it is cold, samething, I just start shedding layers so I don't over heat and the heat from my body plus evaporation will dry it out. Hell, it can be 18F outside and 3 swings with an axe, I start shedding clothing like a stripper in a night club. LOL! Keeping warm when it is cold and wet is easy, it's keeping cool when it is warm is my biggest issue.
Don't use cotton as a base layer for hiking! It absorbs too much water.
Post by: Syncop8r on September 07, 2017, 01:25:43 PM
It's a big no-no here to wear cotton as a base layer.
Post by: 4everYoung on September 07, 2017, 02:38:10 PM
When you wear wet clothes, like cotton that don't dry rapidly ,in cooler conditions you can become hypothermic easily. I'm not talking cold, but 50*F is a good example. At 50*F over an hour without producing any extra heat wet cotton can drop your body temp by as much as 5-7*. That will put you on the path to hypothermia very rapidly.
Changing out of the wet clothes is a great solution, if that is a possibility. However if not, you are in serious danger. That's why it is important to properly pick the right materials when out on a hike or in a situation that may put you at elevated risk.
The other side to consider about cotton and hiking is the amount of moisture retained in high movement areas. The high amount of moisture in high movement areas will result in chaffing.
I have to deal with this in my everyday life. I work at night when the humidity is between 80-100% year round. In cotton underwear (tops, bottoms/socks) I will chaff due to moisture very rapidly regardless of the outside temp. I do not experience this when wearing wool or synthetic underwear. They allow moisture to be wicked away and is much less uncomfortable.
In conclusion, if you don't like synthetic materials, I would highly recommend merino wool shirts over cotton.
Post by: ducttapetech on September 07, 2017, 03:31:44 PM
Post by: Gerhard Gerber on September 07, 2017, 03:36:12 PM
Post by: styx on September 07, 2017, 03:48:59 PM
Nooooooo! :ahhh
Don't use cotton as a base layer for hiking! It absorbs too much water.
For me it is a simple thing of math. Cotton t-shirt is between 25 and 50, depending on the store. Sure there are more expensive ones but those are more style wear than just putting some clothing on.
Synthetic t-shirts can be found for a 190. And those are usually a cotton and synthetic blend. A quick search on a few sites and 100% synthetic goes for about 270. I'm sure if I took more time I'd be able to find them for less, but it is still a hefty price for a single t-shirt that won't last any longer than the inexpensive cotton ones (usually about 3 years)
Now for pants I actually managed to find some very inexpensive (again 200 vs 550+) which work
Post by: 4everYoung on September 07, 2017, 04:17:54 PM
Nooooooo! :ahhh
Don't use cotton as a base layer for hiking! It absorbs too much water.
For me it is a simple thing of math. Cotton t-shirt is between 25 and 50, depending on the store. Sure there are more expensive ones but those are more style wear than just putting some clothing on.
Synthetic t-shirts can be found for a 190. And those are usually a cotton and synthetic blend. A quick search on a few sites and 100% synthetic goes for about 270. I'm sure if I took more time I'd be able to find them for less, but it is still a hefty price for a single t-shirt that won't last any longer than the inexpensive cotton ones (usually about 3 years)
Now for pants I actually managed to find some very inexpensive (again 200 vs 550+) which work
I'm not sure what currency that is so in not sure if value, but here in the US I can find synthetic t shirts for $3.50 each. That's about the same price for an equivalent cotton undershirt as well.
Now they aren fancy or anything. Just a plain t shirt in black ,white ,blue or grey.
Post by: Gareth on September 07, 2017, 04:27:41 PM
I never had a problem with chaffing when wearing cotton. Wool sometimes bothers me, but usually when I wear nothing underneath it. So cotton shirt under it again. Still have yet to have any problems. Just what I grew up with I guess. I have learned years ago to shed or put layers back on as I heat up or cool down. We didn't have all of the synthetic stuff that easily available to us now. Nylon wind breaker was about all we could get easily. And those never lasted me long. To hard on them I guess.
I think that's the nub of it; if you are going to wear cotton you have to be aware of it's limitations and mitigate them by taking action to stop them getting wet in the first place. If I lived in a climate where I was guaranteed to break a sweat no matter what I did perhaps I'd feel differently, but I don't, I live in Scotland.;) I've never had a problem with cotton chaffing either. :think:
Post by: 4everYoung on September 07, 2017, 04:31:58 PM
I never had a problem with chaffing when wearing cotton. Wool sometimes bothers me, but usually when I wear nothing underneath it. So cotton shirt under it again. Still have yet to have any problems. Just what I grew up with I guess. I have learned years ago to shed or put layers back on as I heat up or cool down. We didn't have all of the synthetic stuff that easily available to us now. Nylon wind breaker was about all we could get easily. And those never lasted me long. To hard on them I guess.
Yea I'm with you on what you grew up with. I was very similar, my father taught me at a young age to dress in layers. He would say "you can always take away, but you can't add what you don't have". When I was younger we used what we called "thermal underwear " it was a cotton knit fabric in a grid pattern. Usually pretty tight fit to the body. We wore wool on our feet and heads and if really cold as a coat.
Those "windbreaker jackets" were all the rage but I never good luck with them. They always tore quickly.
Post by: styx on September 07, 2017, 10:38:19 PM
Nooooooo! :ahhh
Don't use cotton as a base layer for hiking! It absorbs too much water.
For me it is a simple thing of math. Cotton t-shirt is between 25 and 50, depending on the store. Sure there are more expensive ones but those are more style wear than just putting some clothing on.
Synthetic t-shirts can be found for a 190. And those are usually a cotton and synthetic blend. A quick search on a few sites and 100% synthetic goes for about 270. I'm sure if I took more time I'd be able to find them for less, but it is still a hefty price for a single t-shirt that won't last any longer than the inexpensive cotton ones (usually about 3 years)
Now for pants I actually managed to find some very inexpensive (again 200 vs 550+) which work
I'm not sure what currency that is so in not sure if value, but here in the US I can find synthetic t shirts for $3.50 each. That's about the same price for an equivalent cotton undershirt as well.
Now they aren fancy or anything. Just a plain t shirt in black ,white ,blue or grey.
Croatian Kuna. 1 US dollar is between 5 and 6 Kunas currently. My guess is that this is more because we aren't a big market. I live in the capital and it doesn't have a whole lot hiking and backpacking shops. Another part is that people are quite traditional in some respects so who knows how well the inexpensive things sell
Post by: Syncop8r on September 07, 2017, 11:18:21 PM
(Oh and a draughtsman's trick: You can type the degrees symbol by holding down ALT and typing 0176 or 0186.)
Post by: Gareth on September 08, 2017, 12:09:52 AM
Have the cotton base layer enthusiasts here tried merino?Never did, though not for the lack of wanting. I believe it's come down in price some now, but it used to be smurfing expensive here. Something to do with it coming from the other side of the world I suspect. :D
(Oh and a draughtsman's trick: You can type the degrees symbol by holding down ALT and typing 0176 or 0186.)
Post by: Syncop8r on September 08, 2017, 12:21:20 AM
They're on special now that we're out of Winter so I should get some more - starting from about $30USD.
Post by: 4everYoung on September 08, 2017, 01:01:37 AM
I only have one merino T shirt so far (I got it on special) so I generally don't wear it unless I really need to. Otherwise synthetic.That's pretty good for a merino wool shirt.
They're on special now that we're out of Winter so I should get some more - starting from about $30USD.
Post by: ducttapetech on September 08, 2017, 01:38:11 AM
I have. Rather rock cotton as a base layer. Like I said before, keeping warm for me is easy, keeping cool, not so much. Not wearing wool as a base layer or synthetic for that matter. Tried it and it didn't work for me. Wool as an mid or outer layer is great. Has anyone else used or tried cotton as a base layer?Have the cotton base layer enthusiasts here tried merino?Never did, though not for the lack of wanting. I believe it's come down in price some now, but it used to be smurfing expensive here. Something to do with it coming from the other side of the world I suspect. :D
(Oh and a draughtsman's trick: You can type the degrees symbol by holding down ALT and typing 0176 or 0186.)
Post by: 4everYoung on September 08, 2017, 02:08:11 AM
I have used cotton for mist if my life. And in my experience, I wound up cold. We used to be heavy into kayak camping for 3-5 day trips. At that time synthetic shirts were still $$$ and I had "more important " stuff to spend money on. So I alway works plain cotton shirts. When the weather was hot it wasn't bad being wet. However after getting off the river I would always freeze once the sun went down and I was sitting around. I carried a spare shirt but after the 3rd day all shirts had been wet and remained damp. Putting a damp cotton shirt on in the morning was not pleasant.I have. Rather rock cotton as a base layer. Like I said before, keeping warm for me is easy, keeping cool, not so much. Not wearing wool as a base layer or synthetic for that matter. Tried it and it didn't work for me. Wool as an mid or outer layer is great. Has anyone else used or tried cotton as a base layer?Have the cotton base layer enthusiasts here tried merino?Never did, though not for the lack of wanting. I believe it's come down in price some now, but it used to be smurfing expensive here. Something to do with it coming from the other side of the world I suspect. :D
(Oh and a draughtsman's trick: You can type the degrees symbol by holding down ALT and typing 0176 or 0186.)
I found a Patagonia synthetic shirt on extreme discount and tried it. Man it was so much better. I could come off the river wet and ring my shirt, hang it in a limb.(wearing my rain jacket). Then within an hour it was dry. Faster than my shirts were too.
Since then I've been redesigning my wardrobe. I still wear cotton when out on the town, but any work or aerobic activities I choose synthetics.
Post by: Syncop8r on September 08, 2017, 02:58:42 AM
I have used cotton for most of my life. And in my experience, I wound up cold...Me too. :salute: Except merino if really cold or away from civilisation.
...I still wear cotton when out on the town, but any work or aerobic activities I choose synthetics.
There is also cooling from evaporation with waterlogged fabrics.
Post by: styx on September 08, 2017, 08:08:07 AM
As a side note I remember reading the logic of good waterproof shells is similar to that of a wetsuit - you'll get wet but it is there to keep you warm (warmer sweat vs cold rain/snow and wind)
Post by: Gareth on September 08, 2017, 09:27:49 AM
Post by: 4everYoung on September 08, 2017, 03:07:32 PM
This might be a silly question but when the synthetic pulls the sweat away from your body, doesn't it go towards the mid layer and makes it wet with sweat?
As a side note I remember reading the logic of good waterproof shells is similar to that of a wetsuit - you'll get wet but it is there to keep you warm (warmer sweat vs cold rain/snow and wind)
The first priority would be to mitigate the amount of perspiration you develop. So don't get too warm that you sweat out your clothes. Again your body wants to maintain a certain temp and it will sweat more to cool down. However the benefit to dressing in layers is that you shed those layers or replace them to maintain your core temp. So even though it is extremely cold out, if you are in an aerobic task that produces heat, you need lea clothing. This is why you see many mountain hikers/backpackers in only long sleeve base layers while trekking.
Secondly let's suppose you just sweat a lot (as some people do) regardless of how hot you are. In this case you couldn't mitigate the amount of moisture build up. So the only solution would be to get rid of it as rapidly as possible. Choosing a material that wicks moisture but dries fast is much better in this case vs a material that wicks and stores moisture. Let's suppose you wear a synthetic base and it gets wet. You have mid layer over it. Now the concert would be that the mid layer would get wet. Unless your mid layer was not breathable it would work just the same as the base layer.
The 2nd layer of thermal dynamics describes how heat always moves from hot to cold. This is the same way the wicking system works. The hot air at your skin is always trying to move away towards the cooler ambient air. Therefore the moisture is also moving in the same direction. That would be towards the outside.
So you can see it would be very important that you should choose a mid layer that was moisture wicking and breathable as well.
Also you have to account for the air currents between the layers that would dry the base off before it is absorbed by the mid layer. While you may get a hot spot (like where your packs presses the layer together) overall you layers aren't in direct contact all the time.
Finally the point about a waterproof layer is true. An impermeable layer helps keep convection currents from robbing heat. However if you use a waterproof layer without ventilation during high aerobic exercise, you are gonna be just as wet on the inside. Warmer at that moment, yea but when you stop you will be cold almost instantly once the outer layer is removed. All the build up moisture/heat is trapped. Again thermal dynamics tells us that the greater the difference in temps ten more rapidly the heat loss. Take in account of being wet, along with that and you have a recipe for sudden heat loss. At that point you would have to change clothes.
When giving an outer shell, it would be better to have one that is venting and breathable. Use your insulating layers for warmth and your waterproof layer for water shedding. Or else you are fighting against the base and mid layers by not letting them breathe.
Of course there are certain exceptions to every case. But like I said before you have to dress for the environment and task you are in.
Post by: 4everYoung on September 08, 2017, 03:14:00 PM
I've not read this article in a while, but IIRC it's very pertinent to this thread. http://woodtrekker.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/classic-backpacking-gear-clothing.html
The same author has conducted a test on the "wool keeps you warm when wet" myth. It's quite interesting to see the results and then see the amount of people that still argue against them.
http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2012/03/does-wool-keep-you-warm-when-wet.html?m=1 (http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2012/03/does-wool-keep-you-warm-when-wet.html?m=1)
And someone else decided to conduct another test because they denied his results. See this article as well
http://stuffadamdid.blogspot.com/2015/02/data-on-effectiveness-of-wool-and.html?m=1 (http://stuffadamdid.blogspot.com/2015/02/data-on-effectiveness-of-wool-and.html?m=1)
They are both long reads but interesting if you are really into the subject matter.
Post by: Gareth on September 09, 2017, 01:08:28 AM
Post by: Gareth on September 09, 2017, 01:35:52 AM
I've not read this article in a while, but IIRC it's very pertinent to this thread. http://woodtrekker.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/classic-backpacking-gear-clothing.html
The same author has conducted a test on the "wool keeps you warm when wet" myth. It's quite interesting to see the results and then see the amount of people that still argue against them.
http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2012/03/does-wool-keep-you-warm-when-wet.html?m=1 (http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2012/03/does-wool-keep-you-warm-when-wet.html?m=1)
And someone else decided to conduct another test because they denied his results. See this article as well
http://stuffadamdid.blogspot.com/2015/02/data-on-effectiveness-of-wool-and.html?m=1 (http://stuffadamdid.blogspot.com/2015/02/data-on-effectiveness-of-wool-and.html?m=1)
They are both long reads but interesting if you are really into the subject matter.
very good reading there. :tu: It does rather seem to support my experience that nothing will keep you warm when wet and expecting it too is a fast way to a very miserable time, at best.
Post by: styx on September 09, 2017, 03:33:06 PM
Post by: Gareth on September 10, 2017, 09:39:49 PM
Good luck and don't chafe on your trip
cheers. :D nope, no chaffing here and no other issues either. Saturday was rather warm and my under-shirt did get sweaty, but I changed out of it after setting up camp and was perfectly warm in my jumper once the sun went down. Today was raining pretty much all day, so the woollens went away and the waterproofs took over.
Post by: 4everYoung on September 10, 2017, 11:06:54 PM
After that I'm going to start on long underwear. Mainly thin merino and synthetics.
I've been happy with my shell choices. As Ive been working in them for the past couple years.
Post by: styx on September 11, 2017, 08:42:32 AM
Post by: Etherealicer on September 11, 2017, 04:39:44 PM
Btw Etherealicer, really less than $10? How the hell didn't I see those shops?You didn't go to a thrift store then...
Post by: styx on September 11, 2017, 08:04:47 PM
Btw Etherealicer, really less than $10? How the hell didn't I see those shops?You didn't go to a thrift store then...
obviously
Post by: 4everYoung on September 14, 2017, 01:55:26 AM
Under the shirt I was wearing a synthetic t-shirt. It too had become wet.
The temp was around 50*F. So instead of just removing the cotton shirt I decided to conduct a scientific experiment. I left both shirts on and then put my thermoball jacket over it.
In about 5min I didn't notice being cold and wet anymore. I unzipped the jacket to see what happened and it was instantly cold again. Both shirts still wet at the time.
After about 10min more sitting I checked the synthetic by reaching under the shirt from the bottom. It was no longer wet but slightly damp. The cotton shirt was still wet. Neither was cold however as the thermoball insulation is awesome. It retained quite a bit of heat.
After about 30min I rechecked again. This time the synthetic shirt was dry against my skin. The outer shirt still felt damp but was hard to tell with feeling under a jacket. So I unzipped to see. Almost instantly I felt cold. The shirt was visibly still wet/damp. I pulled the cotton shirt off and the synthetic shirt instantly felt warmer. (In that area of my body)
I threw the shirt and jacket back on and waited another 20min. This time I was quite toasty and upon checking the shirt was mostly dry. You could still see the outline of the darker wet area but it was no longer transmitting cold feeling through the synthetic shirt.
My conclusion was that I was considerably colder in the wet cotton for longer vs the synthetic. However while wearing an insulating layer I felt warm and didn't notice a temp difference until I removed that layer.
Post by: Syncop8r on September 14, 2017, 02:05:50 AM
Post by: styx on September 14, 2017, 08:50:40 AM
Post by: JP on September 15, 2017, 03:16:53 PM
Sent from my XT1563 using Tapatalk
Post by: Don Pablo on September 15, 2017, 03:21:29 PM
http://www.ikea.com/ie/en/products/textiles-rugs/rugs/tejn-rug-white-art-30229077/
Random off-topic fact. :angel:
Post by: styx on September 15, 2017, 08:15:00 PM
Post by: Fortytwo on September 19, 2017, 01:12:37 AM
I heard that these, shaved and cut to size, also made to look old, are what the Nights Watch capes are made from. :think:
http://www.ikea.com/ie/en/products/textiles-rugs/rugs/tejn-rug-white-art-30229077/
Random off-topic fact. :angel:
Indeed, they even released a set of instructions.
(https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/ikea-game-of-thrones-fur-rug-cape-instructions.jpg)
Source: http://time.com/4901655/ikea-game-of-thrones-rug-cape-diy/
Post by: Don Pablo on September 19, 2017, 01:23:09 AM
That's missing the cape/cloak bit though. :think:I heard that these, shaved and cut to size, also made to look old, are what the Nights Watch capes are made from. :think:
http://www.ikea.com/ie/en/products/textiles-rugs/rugs/tejn-rug-white-art-30229077/
Random off-topic fact. :angel:
Indeed, they even released a set of instructions.
(https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/ikea-game-of-thrones-fur-rug-cape-instructions.jpg)
Source: http://time.com/4901655/ikea-game-of-thrones-rug-cape-diy/
Post by: Fortytwo on September 19, 2017, 03:04:26 AM
That's missing the cape/cloak bit though. :think:I heard that these, shaved and cut to size, also made to look old, are what the Nights Watch capes are made from. :think:
http://www.ikea.com/ie/en/products/textiles-rugs/rugs/tejn-rug-white-art-30229077/
Random off-topic fact. :angel:
Indeed, they even released a set of instructions.
(https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/ikea-game-of-thrones-fur-rug-cape-instructions.jpg)
Source: http://time.com/4901655/ikea-game-of-thrones-rug-cape-diy/
Well, I don't know how much is actually known on the topic since I believe it started as a short remark during an interview about other aspects of the production.
Looking at pictures it seems like the fur is mostly on and around their shoulders as shown in the IKEA picture and that their actual cloak is made from textile of some sort.
Post by: styx on September 19, 2017, 09:05:08 AM
Post by: Don Pablo on September 19, 2017, 09:50:20 AM
I think I'll get one from Ikea the next time I go there anyway. ;)That's missing the cape/cloak bit though. :think:I heard that these, shaved and cut to size, also made to look old, are what the Nights Watch capes are made from. :think:
http://www.ikea.com/ie/en/products/textiles-rugs/rugs/tejn-rug-white-art-30229077/
Random off-topic fact. :angel:
Indeed, they even released a set of instructions.
(https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/ikea-game-of-thrones-fur-rug-cape-instructions.jpg)
Source: http://time.com/4901655/ikea-game-of-thrones-rug-cape-diy/
Well, I don't know how much is actually known on the topic since I believe it started as a short remark during an interview about other aspects of the production.
Looking at pictures it seems like the fur is mostly on and around their shoulders as shown in the IKEA picture and that their actual cloak is made from textile of some sort.
Post by: Syncop8r on September 20, 2017, 11:43:54 PM
Quote
The Swanndri, or "swanny" as it has been dubbed, was designed by William Broome (1873–1942). Since he registered Swanndri as a trademark on 23 December 1913, it has become an iconic New Zealand garment, and the term "swanny" has, to some extent at least, become a genericised trademark for heavy bush shirts within New Zealand.
Broome, born in Staffordshire, England, immigrated to New Zealand at age 21. A tailor by trade, he established a clothier and outfitters business, The Palatine that was located on Devon Street, New Plymouth. Part of his business involved sewing woollen fabric from mills in Wanganui, Kaiapoi and Wellington, into the Swanndri garments. The characteristics of the "swanny" design include its heavy dark fabric, often in a tartan pattern, hood and laced neck closure. In more recent designs, a zip has replaced the lace-up neck.
The original design was short sleeved, long in the back, and would be worn on top of work clothes for warmth and shower proofing. During production, these garments were dipped into a secret mixture and then dried. It is not known if Broome had been taught the method for shower proofing the fabric he used or whether he developed the formula himself. The mixture caused the garments to shrink unevenly so were sold as one size fits all.
According to the Swanndri’s corporate history, Broome’s design began after he was frustrated by the persistently rainy New Zealand weather. The name Swanndri was named by Broome because the rain would literally run off the back of the garment as it does on a swan. Although new colors and features have been incorporated into the Swanndri, Broom’s original design influence can still be seen in New Zealand and among other producers around the world.
Post by: 4everYoung on September 21, 2017, 12:29:57 AM
Post by: Syncop8r on September 21, 2017, 04:40:14 AM
Post by: Syncop8r on September 21, 2017, 04:41:10 AM
So wonder why he dipped them in that secret concoction??? HmmmBecause as well as wool performs when wet, it performs even better when dry. ;)
Post by: styx on September 21, 2017, 08:45:21 AM
this whole thing is slightly less confusing at times than the whole wind shirt/jacket vs rain jacket thing. when did hiking/backpacking/woods bumming clothing get so complex?
Post by: 4everYoung on September 21, 2017, 09:35:46 AM
again, to be fair most peacoats, overcoats, greatcoats and similar items are made of wool too and used as normal outerwear.
this whole thing is slightly less confusing at times than the whole wind shirt/jacket vs rain jacket thing. when did hiking/backpacking/woods bumming clothing get so complex?
Yea wool coats are designed as outer wear, so are knit cotton, denim, and even down filled jackets and a slew of synthetic materials. Doesn't mean they should be worn in all weather conditions. Which is the whole point of all your of this. At least I thought it was.
Picking the right outer wear for the right conditions.
Post by: 4everYoung on September 21, 2017, 09:40:24 AM
So wonder why he dipped them in that secret concoction??? HmmmBecause as well as wool performs when wet, it performs even better when dry. ;)
So that's to say that dry wool performs better but wet wool performs worse than dry wool... pretty sure that's been my argument all along.
☔️
Post by: Don Pablo on September 21, 2017, 11:10:41 AM
I went camping last weekend. It drizzled for half the day on Saturday. :rant:
I was dry, thanks to my raincoat, but on the cold side due to not having something properly insulating. :facepalm:
I won't make that mistake again, and will go buy something warm. :cheers:
Post by: Syncop8r on September 21, 2017, 01:08:43 PM
So wonder why he dipped them in that secret concoction??? HmmmBecause as well as wool performs when wet, it performs even better when dry. ;)
So that's to say that dry wool performs better but wet wool performs worse than dry wool... pretty sure that's been my argument all along.
I thought your argument was that the adage that "wool keeps you warm when it's wet" is a myth.
I'm saying it still keeps you warm when wet, not to the same degree as when dry, but a lot better than what was traditionally the alternative - cotton.
Post by: Don Pablo on September 21, 2017, 01:10:46 PM
So basically, when wet, wool wins over cotton, but is not as good compared to some modern stuff. :think:So wonder why he dipped them in that secret concoction??? HmmmBecause as well as wool performs when wet, it performs even better when dry. ;)
So that's to say that dry wool performs better but wet wool performs worse than dry wool... pretty sure that's been my argument all along.
I thought your argument was that the adage that "wool keeps you warm when it's wet" is a myth.
I'm saying it still keeps you warm when wet, not to the same degree as when dry, but a lot better than what was traditionally the alternative - cotton.
Question closed! :D
Post by: Gareth on September 21, 2017, 01:13:01 PM
Wool may or may not perform nice when wet, but there is no way I would want to get wet in the first place. If it's drizzling all day, raincoat over something insulating (such as wool or a fleece) for me.
I went camping last weekend. It drizzled for half the day on Saturday. :rant:
I was dry, thanks to my raincoat, but on the cold side due to not having something properly insulating. :facepalm:
I won't make that mistake again, and will go buy something warm. :cheers:
This seems to be the sensible way to approach things I'd say. I still think anyone expecting to be warm when wet is likely to be disappointed sooner or later, whether what you are wearing wool, cotton or something synthetic. I wear a lot of different wool coats/jackets from tweeds to pea coats and army surplus, but none of them would be my first choice of what to wear when it's raining heavily. Not saying they're useless at all, but I wouldn't want to spend a whole day in the rain in one and certainly not overnight. An afternoon of drizzle is OK, but I'd still want to know I could dry out afterwards.
Post by: Don Pablo on September 21, 2017, 01:14:44 PM
Not to mention, warm and dry beats warm and wet....Wool may or may not perform nice when wet, but there is no way I would want to get wet in the first place. If it's drizzling all day, raincoat over something insulating (such as wool or a fleece) for me.
I went camping last weekend. It drizzled for half the day on Saturday. :rant:
I was dry, thanks to my raincoat, but on the cold side due to not having something properly insulating. :facepalm:
I won't make that mistake again, and will go buy something warm. :cheers:
This seems to be the sensible way to approach things I'd say. I still think anyone expecting to be warm when wet is likely to be disappointed sooner or later. I wear a lot of different wool coats/jackets from tweeds to pea coats and army surplus, but none of them would be my first choice of what to wear when it's raining heavily. Not saying they're useless at all, but I wouldn't want to spend a whole day in the rain in one and certainly not overnight. An afternoon of drizzle is OK, but I'd still want to know I could dry out afterwards.
Post by: Syncop8r on September 21, 2017, 01:17:34 PM
Not to mention, warm and dry beats warm and wet....Must... resist........ must... behave..... :facepalm:
Post by: Don Pablo on September 21, 2017, 01:24:38 PM
:whistle:Not to mention, warm and dry beats warm and wet....Must... resist........ must... behave..... :facepalm:
Post by: Gareth on September 21, 2017, 01:29:46 PM
:D :D:whistle:Not to mention, warm and dry beats warm and wet....Must... resist........ must... behave..... :facepalm:
Post by: 4everYoung on September 21, 2017, 01:59:18 PM
So wonder why he dipped them in that secret concoction??? HmmmBecause as well as wool performs when wet, it performs even better when dry. ;)
So that's to say that dry wool performs better but wet wool performs worse than dry wool... pretty sure that's been my argument all along.
I thought your argument was that the adage that "wool keeps you warm when it's wet" is a myth.
I'm saying it still keeps you warm when wet, not to the same degree as when dry, but a lot better than what was traditionally the alternative - cotton.
I could see wool as an outer layer in dry conditions but not in wet. For all it's properties, waterproof/resistant it is not.
The above was my short response when this thread first started. Unfortunately the old classic debate ensued. So that requires arguing from different angles.
But my whole point is and always has been that wool is a good insulator and makes a good layer, but keep it dry. It is not waterproof. Unfortunately you can't simply make that statement without all the hubbub and todo about it. Hearing about how wool is a magically mythical fabric that is able to defy all physical properties.
Cotton retains more moisture longer than wool. Wool also retains moisture. Is it more effective and drying out than cotton? Yes ! However that was never my contention.
Wool is not waterproof on its on. So unless you make it that way by coating it, it will eventually saturate as well. Saturated wool is no better than saturated anything else: Cotton, down or whatever.
That's why in the article you posted, the inventor used a secret concoction to waterproof the wool. And my point about why he did it.
Post by: 4everYoung on September 21, 2017, 02:00:56 PM
Yes, thank you!Wool may or may not perform nice when wet, but there is no way I would want to get wet in the first place. If it's drizzling all day, raincoat over something insulating (such as wool or a fleece) for me.
I went camping last weekend. It drizzled for half the day on Saturday. :rant:
I was dry, thanks to my raincoat, but on the cold side due to not having something properly insulating. :facepalm:
I won't make that mistake again, and will go buy something warm. :cheers:
This seems to be the sensible way to approach things I'd say. I still think anyone expecting to be warm when wet is likely to be disappointed sooner or later, whether what you are wearing wool, cotton or something synthetic. I wear a lot of different wool coats/jackets from tweeds to pea coats and army surplus, but none of them would be my first choice of what to wear when it's raining heavily. Not saying they're useless at all, but I wouldn't want to spend a whole day in the rain in one and certainly not overnight. An afternoon of drizzle is OK, but I'd still want to know I could dry out afterwards.
Post by: Syncop8r on September 21, 2017, 02:06:19 PM
Saturated wool is no better than saturated anything else: Cotton, down or whatever.I'm not convinced.... or not yet at least.
Does cotton hold more water than wool? Perhaps the wool is more difficult to saturate?
This is something I will look into more when I have time...
Post by: 4everYoung on September 21, 2017, 02:17:26 PM
Saturated wool is no better than saturated anything else: Cotton, down or whatever.I'm not convinced.... or not yet at least.
Does cotton hold more water than wool? Perhaps the wool is more difficult to saturate?
This is something I will look into more when I have time...
I'm doing real time test for you now. Stand by
Post by: Gareth on September 21, 2017, 02:23:31 PM
Yes, thank you!Wool may or may not perform nice when wet, but there is no way I would want to get wet in the first place. If it's drizzling all day, raincoat over something insulating (such as wool or a fleece) for me.
I went camping last weekend. It drizzled for half the day on Saturday. :rant:
I was dry, thanks to my raincoat, but on the cold side due to not having something properly insulating. :facepalm:
I won't make that mistake again, and will go buy something warm. :cheers:
This seems to be the sensible way to approach things I'd say. I still think anyone expecting to be warm when wet is likely to be disappointed sooner or later, whether what you are wearing wool, cotton or something synthetic. I wear a lot of different wool coats/jackets from tweeds to pea coats and army surplus, but none of them would be my first choice of what to wear when it's raining heavily. Not saying they're useless at all, but I wouldn't want to spend a whole day in the rain in one and certainly not overnight. An afternoon of drizzle is OK, but I'd still want to know I could dry out afterwards.
I will caveat my above statement by saying that, while I wouldn't necessarily reach for a wool coat if it's already raining, if I was already wearing one the fact it starts raining doesn't make me run for cover. They're fine...up to a point. :D
Keep in mind it's now getting on for Autumn, I've got a dog to walk and I live in Scotland, I've got lots of opportunities to put this to the test coming up very soon. :D
Post by: 4everYoung on September 21, 2017, 02:32:03 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/60e565f147aad9023eda5b011afc29d3.jpg)
Wool before dunk
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/c2c5a21f180f51b9166b33a70854487a.jpg)
Dunk for 2secs
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/25fccd05508c0fec2b7e69261e430983.jpg)
After 2sec it is fully saturated and dripping
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/240b913154edcc7962e956e471927e88.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/0ec8f4657eb733b86ae6c6c894dbba3b.jpg)
Cotton shirt before dunk
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/956cd3435e9457741f6255123aaca3a9.jpg)
2sec dunk
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/7d7d1b0d97721fd04a1db678ed5a6855.jpg)
Fully saturated and dripping
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/e9a270a0cc2efaa37972df2293851c75.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/4831023e654783011940c4a08b3017b3.jpg)
Both had the water squeezed out so it wasn't dripping and tied around my upper arms.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/80f723a2c4915c626851e75da8d954d0.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/01ec3c6bb596effe72482a7d432fe61c.jpg)
Will let you know the results of feel and drying time.
But I can tell you that the wool and cotton bot sucked up the water fast. There was no noticeable difference in the two fabrics. Both were fully saturated after 2sec.
And preliminary I can say I don't feel warm from either side. As the air cond is on and I right beside a vent. It's chilly on both arms.
Post by: 4everYoung on September 21, 2017, 02:43:59 PM
Post by: styx on September 21, 2017, 03:00:13 PM
again, to be fair most peacoats, overcoats, greatcoats and similar items are made of wool too and used as normal outerwear.
this whole thing is slightly less confusing at times than the whole wind shirt/jacket vs rain jacket thing. when did hiking/backpacking/woods bumming clothing get so complex?
Yea wool coats are designed as outer wear, so are knit cotton, denim, and even down filled jackets and a slew of synthetic materials. Doesn't mean they should be worn in all weather conditions. Which is the whole point of all your of this. At least I thought it was.
Picking the right outer wear for the right conditions.
at some point it was. but considering there are many nuances to this whole debate, I think that the bast way to go hiking and backpacking is by having a half cotton, half synthetic base layer (not a blend, literally 2 different shirts sewn together), a wool sweater and an oilcloth (or similar water resistant material) overcoat, a pair of merino longjohns under hiking pants (one of those that have 45 zippers so the pant leg length can be adjusted, icebreaker socks and swimming fins.
Post by: 4everYoung on September 21, 2017, 03:19:45 PM
Here is a tissue test from the stretched part of each fabric.
Wool
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/61788e18c78663c4621267eca44bbe8c.jpg)
Cotton
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/5e9ab78ed168f14ddaaf3424ab094225.jpg)
This is after 5 secs of contact with my hand on top.
Very little difference in each one.
The skin under both fabrics is colder than the skin that is not in contact with it on both sides. I would not want either one on in a cold environment if they were wet. It's 70*f with a constant cool breeze from circulating air. It would be frigid if I was in actual cold temps.
Post by: Gareth on September 21, 2017, 04:34:04 PM
Post by: 4everYoung on September 21, 2017, 04:44:24 PM
Both fabrics are still damp. The wool feels dryer than the cotton. However both are still cold against the skin. Neither ever resembled anything like warmth.
The tissue test at 5 seconds again.
Wool
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/cc2624b4b874f100fe69bc4186f41af1.jpg)
Cotton
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170921/316e37733e9d1b5069c47af27a0dea5d.jpg)
Both were still significantly wet at the knot portion of the fabric. The knot hung at the bottom so I would say that a fair bit or water went that direction due to gravity.
One observation about the wool, it felt dryer at the top most portion of my arm, and as the fabric went around the sides more and more moisture was retained.
The cotton seemed consistently damp all the way around (except the lower knot portion on both pieces).
I removed both pieces at the 2 hr mark. Both arms were still cold to the touch after removing the fabrics as well as damp. I let them air dry and within 5min both side had warmed up to the rest of my arms temp.
I hung up the fabrics and will them dry on their own. Will report back in that.
In conclusion of this part, it seemed that the wool was starting to feel more dry around the 1hr 30min mark, but still damp and cool. At the 2hr mark I was still cool and damp.
Overall the point of the test was a comparison of wool vs cotton in regards to water absorption and retention. In a dunk, there was no difference in absorption after a 2 sec dunk. Both items were saturated and dripping. Wool did not resist the moisture anymore than cotton did.
Secondly after wringing out the fabrics both were still considerably wet feeling.
Both were cold and resulted in heat loss through convection.
Both pieces were still damp at the 2hr mark. The wool had dried some in relation to the cotton starting to notice at 1.5hr mark. This still did not make a differences in the feel. I still felt cold and wet on both sides.
Post by: 4everYoung on September 21, 2017, 04:54:58 PM
Very interesting so far mate. :tu: I know you (probably) only have two arms, but I'd be interested in seeing this repeated with a wicking shirt vs the "winner" of this current test.
Well I'll see what I can make happen. It would be the wool vs synthetic. Once the wool dries I'll plan for that one.
Post by: styx on September 21, 2017, 07:47:01 PM
Post by: Gareth on September 21, 2017, 08:40:04 PM
:cheers:Very interesting so far mate. :tu: I know you (probably) only have two arms, but I'd be interested in seeing this repeated with a wicking shirt vs the "winner" of this current test.
Well I'll see what I can make happen. It would be the wool vs synthetic. Once the wool dries I'll plan for that one.
Post by: Syncop8r on September 21, 2017, 11:48:22 PM
With your experiment I would like to have seen a measure of how much water was absorbed by measuring the water before and after dunking. :pok:
Post by: 4everYoung on September 22, 2017, 01:41:04 AM
OK what about the amount of water absorbed by wool Vs cotton garments after say an hour of drizzle?
With your experiment I would like to have seen a measure of how much water was absorbed by measuring the water before and after dunking. :pok:
Sounds like you have yourself a couple good experiments of your own to conduct.
Post by: 4everYoung on September 22, 2017, 02:21:27 AM
My son is 1 and he's battling his first cold. The little fella has been running a temp today. As normal it goes up at night. Well he was very uncomfortable so I checked his temp. It was 101.6*F.
We normally run a bath and cool them that way. But i figured I'd let him help me test my theory.
So I wetted the wool buff and laid it in his head. The buff was wrung out very well so it was just damp.
After being in his head for 8minutes
His temp has dropped to 99.3*F
A 2.3*F drop in 8min is pretty quick.
Clearly the wet wool did not insulate while wet. If it had the temp would have remained the same or increased.
Now before you accuse me of bad parenting by testing theories on my kids. I knew before hand it would work. As we use damp clothes on their heads to help when fever strikes.
I just found it more compelling to have these numbers show what science tells us happens.
Here's the poor lil fella.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170922/8abc6334bf7001677cb992551729cd22.jpg)
Post by: MadPlumbarian on September 22, 2017, 02:26:55 AM
JR
Post by: 4everYoung on September 22, 2017, 02:28:07 AM
Awww, pour little fella, feel better! :tu:Thanks
JR
Post by: MadPlumbarian on September 22, 2017, 03:14:21 AM
Wife went :-\ and said children’s Morten and then Tylenol..Awww, pour little fella, feel better! :tu:Thanks
JR
JR
Post by: Syncop8r on September 22, 2017, 03:31:50 AM
My son is 1 and he's battling his first cold. The little fella has been running a temp today. As normal it goes up at night. Well he was very uncomfortable so I checked his temp. It was 101.6*F.I hope he gets better soon.
We normally run a bath and cool them that way. But i figured I'd let him help me test my theory.
Some would argue that a fever is the body's way of fighting off illness and is often better left untreated (within reason). Not me though, I'm tired of arguing!
Post by: 4everYoung on September 22, 2017, 03:50:06 AM
Wife went :-\ and said children’s Morten and then Tylenol..Awww, pour little fella, feel better! :tu:Thanks
JR
JR
Yea my wife picked up some meds for him. Got him some meds and put him to bed. Will see how long he sleeps...
My son is 1 and he's battling his first cold. The little fella has been running a temp today. As normal it goes up at night. Well he was very uncomfortable so I checked his temp. It was 101.6*F.I hope he gets better soon.
We normally run a bath and cool them that way. But i figured I'd let him help me test my theory.
Some would argue that a fever is the body's way of fighting off illness and is often better left untreated (within reason). Not me though, I'm tired of arguing!
I used to never worry about a fever. However when my daughter turned a year old, she contracted a virus and would run a fever. We tried the methods of cool baths, alternating Tylenol/Motrin and cool wraps. However he fever spiked rapidly and she had a febrile seizure. One minute she was watching a cartoon and the next she was non responsive and seizing. Short version, it took her about 6hrs to be able to talk or act herself. It was the scariest moment of my life because I didn't know anything about what was happening.
After going thru it, turns out to be very normal at that age. She's been fine since, but we don't play with fevers anymore.
Post by: styx on September 22, 2017, 08:04:53 AM
Here a lot of people stick to traditional remedies which oddly work. A gauze dampened with rakija put on the chest, ankles and or wrists. Not sure how the rest of the world would react to treating a small child with alcohol soaked wraps
Post by: Gareth on September 22, 2017, 09:09:05 AM
Post by: MadPlumbarian on September 22, 2017, 04:24:05 PM
Hope he feels better, please let us know!Wife went :-\ and said children’s Morten and then Tylenol..Awww, pour little fella, feel better! :tu:Thanks
JR
JR
Yea my wife picked up some meds for him. Got him some meds and put him to bed. Will see how long he sleeps...
JR
Post by: Gareth on September 25, 2017, 01:00:57 PM
(https://forum.multitool.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=73728.0;attach=338668)
I was very pleasantly surprised to find the inside felt completely dry to the touch. My jeans on the other hand were soaked though and very unpleasant.
(https://forum.multitool.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=73728.0;attach=338670)
After getting home I hung it up in a unheated room (about 17degC) and checked again about two hours later and the outside was mostly dry. However the inside now feels, very slightly, damp.
My feelings about this are; I was pretty pleased with how it preformed TBH, it really was raining hard and I didn't get wet the whole time I was out. In fact I would easily put this performance on par with a decent "soft shell" outer. I do think we need to be thinking as much about construction and weave as much as material. However, and I've said this more than a few times already, I'd not want to rely on this unless I knew I would be able to dry it out at some point.
Post by: styx on September 25, 2017, 04:01:39 PM
Post by: Huntsman on September 25, 2017, 05:16:43 PM
They are 100% wool and preshrunk.
I have worn them in the depth of Scottish Winters in complete white out conditions.
The outside gets caked in snow - But they are still 100% dry inside and your hands are as warm as toast
I have also used them to 'rescue' friends hands that have poor circulation - after a few minutes in the gloves their hands warm up and circulation returns.
You can hold an ice axe in them - But they are not good if you need your fingers - eg if you are climbing
Although I think they may do a glove version
Not read the whole of this thread - But I would not use wool as an outer layer for my body - Maybe in completly dry conditions - Although I'd worry about the windchill
Post by: Aloha on September 25, 2017, 05:40:23 PM
Post by: Gareth on September 25, 2017, 06:30:25 PM
Austrian Dachstein mittens are absolutely amazing
They are 100% wool and preshrunk.
I have worn them in the depth of Scottish Winters in complete white out conditions.
The outside gets caked in snow - But they are still 100% dry inside and your hands are as warm as toast
I have also used them to 'rescue' friends hands that have poor circulation - after a few minutes in the gloves their hands warm up and circulation returns.
You can hold an ice axe in them - But they are not good if you need your fingers - eg if you are climbing
Although I think they may do a glove version
Not read the whole of this thread - But I would not use wool as an outer layer for my body - Maybe in completly dry conditions - Although I'd worry about the windchill
As someone who has poor circulation in my fingers really love my Dachstein mitts. :D As you say they are fantastic in the snow but, without wanting to sound like a broken record, I wouldn't want to wear them soaking wet. :)
Post by: Gareth on September 25, 2017, 06:49:37 PM
Post by: Huntsman on September 25, 2017, 11:15:57 PM
Two things you wear that are absolute 'no-nos' for me - Surprising :o
In my experience cotton as a base layer is very bad.
If it does get wet, either through sweating or precipitation, it is very uncomfortable as it does not dry out .... at all
It then gets clammy and can give you a chill - even in summer
Merino is best as a base layer for me as it keeps you wonderfully warm and is a 'wicking' material'
Synthetics are also OK, but then you have the stinky problem - especially after a few days !
Then jeans :( ...
Which are even worse than a cotton Ts if they get wet. Are impossible to dry out and also shrink
The thick material is also not so comfortable/stretchable if you are moving around a lot!!
I guess for both, if you can guarantee dryness, (California :) ) then you could get away with it ???
But who does not sweat when you are exerting yourself - Or even if it is very hot!!
And if you are carrying a pack your back is guaranteed to get wet - Hmmm
I have been advised not to wear either of these fabrics by outdoor instructors etc
Ah well - sounds like they work for you.
@ Gareth - yes My Dachsteins are definitely for snow/Winter conditions - And would be too warm for summer - even high up.
I think I may have worn them in wet conditions and they still work/stay dry - But can't quite remember - It's been a while :(
Post by: Aloha on September 26, 2017, 12:21:17 AM
I will say tho in our weather (75-80F) most days and 60s nights I can get away with quite a lot. "Winters" in Cali are a little cooler but again I can get away with a lot. In the mountains it does get cooler during winter with some snow. I tend to camp in those months and when I leave outside of camp ( hike/explore ) I try to omit as much cotton as I can. Again my pants are a blend but so far they are ok. With the long Dry Fit pants I find myself ok. Wool socks help and keeping my core warm does too.
Post by: Fortytwo on September 26, 2017, 01:11:44 AM
The things I do for you lot. ::) So I decided to wear one of my wool coats out in a pretty heavy rain this morning while walking the dog It was raining pretty hard for periods and only lightened up at times and I was out for about 45 minutes and in that time it absorbed quite a bit of water but was still showing the new spots at the end of the walk, showing it wasn't saturated.
(https://forum.multitool.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=73728.0;attach=338668)
I was very pleasantly surprised to find the inside felt completely dry to the touch. My jeans on the other hand were soaked though and very unpleasant.
(https://forum.multitool.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=73728.0;attach=338670)
After getting home I hung it up in a unheated room (about 17degC) and checked again about two hours later and the outside was mostly dry. However the inside now feels, very slightly, damp.
My feelings about this are; I was pretty pleased with how it preformed TBH, it really was raining hard and I didn't get wet the whole time I was out. In fact I would easily put this performance on par with a decent "soft shell" outer. I do think we need to be thinking as much about construction and weave as much as material. However, and I've said this more than a few times already, I'd not want to rely on this unless I knew I would be able to dry it out at some point.
I think there is an important distinction to be made here. There seems to be two almost entirely different types of garment being compared here. One being your coat here, It looks very much like my Austrian Loden and I guess that's what you have tere too, and things like tweed.
The second is the much less dense wool, often merino, that's used in things like underlayers.
These seem to work very different and it seems to me like which one you think of when talking about haswool might explain how well you expect it to work against rain. Generally here or seems like the people who doubt wool the most talk about the lighter merino garments and the people, me included, who are more on board with the idea are referring to the denser tweeds and similar.
Post by: Gareth on September 26, 2017, 01:36:22 AM
The things I do for you lot. ::) So I decided to wear one of my wool coats out in a pretty heavy rain this morning while walking the dog It was raining pretty hard for periods and only lightened up at times and I was out for about 45 minutes and in that time it absorbed quite a bit of water but was still showing the new spots at the end of the walk, showing it wasn't saturated.
(https://forum.multitool.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=73728.0;attach=338668)
I was very pleasantly surprised to find the inside felt completely dry to the touch. My jeans on the other hand were soaked though and very unpleasant.
(https://forum.multitool.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=73728.0;attach=338670)
After getting home I hung it up in a unheated room (about 17degC) and checked again about two hours later and the outside was mostly dry. However the inside now feels, very slightly, damp.
My feelings about this are; I was pretty pleased with how it preformed TBH, it really was raining hard and I didn't get wet the whole time I was out. In fact I would easily put this performance on par with a decent "soft shell" outer. I do think we need to be thinking as much about construction and weave as much as material. However, and I've said this more than a few times already, I'd not want to rely on this unless I knew I would be able to dry it out at some point.
I think there is an important distinction to be made here. There seems to be two almost entirely different types of garment being compared here. One being your coat here, It looks very much like my Austrian Loden and I guess that's what you have tere too, and things like tweed.
The second is the much less dense wool, often merino, that's used in things like underlayers.
These seem to work very different and it seems to me like which one you think of when talking about haswool might explain how well you expect it to work against rain. Generally here or seems like the people who doubt wool the most talk about the lighter merino garments and the people, me included, who are more on board with the idea are referring to the denser tweeds and similar.
Absolutely agree. The coat I was wearing is a old Swedish Army issue and strikes me as being relevant as the thread was originally asking about wool as an outer layer, so I thought I'd try a garment that was designed to be one. :D I've no doubt that if I was wearing a knitted jumper, wool shirt with a more open weave or merino base layer I'd have been soaked to the skin in very short order and have been chilled in no time at all.
Post by: Gareth on September 26, 2017, 01:46:59 AM
Post by: Syncop8r on September 26, 2017, 02:10:36 AM
Post by: Gareth on September 26, 2017, 02:25:17 AM
Wool has been worn as an outer layer in NZ for some time (albeit modified): http://www.swanndri.co.nz/bushshirtsQuoteThe Swanndri, or "swanny" as it has been dubbed, was designed by William Broome (1873–1942). Since he registered Swanndri as a trademark on 23 December 1913, it has become an iconic New Zealand garment, and the term "swanny" has, to some extent at least, become a genericised trademark for heavy bush shirts within New Zealand.
Broome, born in Staffordshire, England, immigrated to New Zealand at age 21. A tailor by trade, he established a clothier and outfitters business, The Palatine that was located on Devon Street, New Plymouth. Part of his business involved sewing woollen fabric from mills in Wanganui, Kaiapoi and Wellington, into the Swanndri garments. The characteristics of the "swanny" design include its heavy dark fabric, often in a tartan pattern, hood and laced neck closure. In more recent designs, a zip has replaced the lace-up neck.
The original design was short sleeved, long in the back, and would be worn on top of work clothes for warmth and shower proofing. During production, these garments were dipped into a secret mixture and then dried. It is not known if Broome had been taught the method for shower proofing the fabric he used or whether he developed the formula himself. The mixture caused the garments to shrink unevenly so were sold as one size fits all.
According to the Swanndri’s corporate history, Broome’s design began after he was frustrated by the persistently rainy New Zealand weather. The name Swanndri was named by Broome because the rain would literally run off the back of the garment as it does on a swan. Although new colors and features have been incorporated into the Swanndri, Broom’s original design influence can still be seen in New Zealand and among other producers around the world.
This has just reminded me that I've never actually worn my Swanndri Ranger Shirt as an outer layer in the rain. Next up for testing then I guess, though I have to say the weave is more open that I was expecting and doesn't inspire huge amounts of confidence. Lets see what the weather is doing tomorrow. :D
Post by: Syncop8r on September 26, 2017, 02:31:00 AM
Post by: Aloha on September 26, 2017, 03:22:40 AM
The things I do for you lot. ::) So I decided to wear one of my wool coats out in a pretty heavy rain this morning while walking the dog It was raining pretty hard for periods and only lightened up at times and I was out for about 45 minutes and in that time it absorbed quite a bit of water but was still showing the new spots at the end of the walk, showing it wasn't saturated.
(https://forum.multitool.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=73728.0;attach=338668)
I was very pleasantly surprised to find the inside felt completely dry to the touch. My jeans on the other hand were soaked though and very unpleasant.
(https://forum.multitool.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=73728.0;attach=338670)
After getting home I hung it up in a unheated room (about 17degC) and checked again about two hours later and the outside was mostly dry. However the inside now feels, very slightly, damp.
My feelings about this are; I was pretty pleased with how it preformed TBH, it really was raining hard and I didn't get wet the whole time I was out. In fact I would easily put this performance on par with a decent "soft shell" outer. I do think we need to be thinking as much about construction and weave as much as material. However, and I've said this more than a few times already, I'd not want to rely on this unless I knew I would be able to dry it out at some point.
I think there is an important distinction to be made here. There seems to be two almost entirely different types of garment being compared here. One being your coat here, It looks very much like my Austrian Loden and I guess that's what you have tere too, and things like tweed.
The second is the much less dense wool, often merino, that's used in things like underlayers.
These seem to work very different and it seems to me like which one you think of when talking about haswool might explain how well you expect it to work against rain. Generally here or seems like the people who doubt wool the most talk about the lighter merino garments and the people, me included, who are more on board with the idea are referring to the denser tweeds and similar.
Not so sure I agree. Merino is a breed of sheep that produce some of the finest quality and particularly prized wool not necessarily a type of clothing. The wool however is graded and not all Merino sheep produce clothing quality wool. What I am referring to personally is the wool specifically produced and graded for clothing as it has those prized qualities. Like I've said earlier, I dont live in a rainy environment so for me any such wool would do fine however I dont see myself using wool as an outer layer be it Merino or another type wool. Yes it has wonderful properties and yes its pretty fabulous in terms of how it performs. To me however its a mid layer or base layer for those wonderful and fabulous properties. Would I choose Merino for a cold day? Yes no question. For a windy day? Without hesitation. For a snowy day? Well it would have to snow in SoCal first but yes not a problem. Rainy? No. However looking at the link I provided I may have a change of heart. I am always open to learn and learn I am.
It was interesting to see Gareth coat and how it handled the rain. What concerns me is not being able to get it dry at whatever level of "wet". If one was out say, 3 days then what? Seems like a bad 2 days once the article of clothing is wet. Can it survive better than say Cotton? I'd most certainly agree yes. So the question to me is less about can it survive, but how long and then what?
http://www.woolmark.com/globalassets/woolmark/inspiration/activewear/merinoperform/merinoperform_eng.pdf/
Post by: MadPlumbarian on September 26, 2017, 04:09:05 AM
JR
Post by: Aloha on September 26, 2017, 08:13:26 AM
Ok can someone enlighten me without me having to read everything, I mean I’d love one of those old heavy military wool blanket sweaters that supposedly are perfect for all winter long in subfreezing weather and winds, yet there like $300?
JR
Wool is amazing. Wool isnt the best for prolonged wet weather IMO. Wool is great for any one of three layers, base, mid, or outer.
Post by: styx on September 26, 2017, 08:32:36 AM
Probably most of this discussion belongs in a thread called "Wool/cotton/synthetic as an inner layer".
Well it is natural to look at all components of clothing since they do effect each other. Just think about having a wet t-shirt on you that isn't drying out quickly. No matter your outer shell, wind can sometimes sneak up under and then it is not a very pleasant experience.
For instance I've recently seen arguments for a one jacket that is both a rain shell and a wind blocking item and for dedicated items in both respect. And the mindset of people didn't differ all that much since both sides were presented by UL hikers, more traditional backpackers (those not counting grams or oz) and very sedentary instructors (survival/bushcraft/what ever name they want to use these days) that drive up to a location and spend there several days without walking around beyond the basic needs
Post by: Gareth on September 26, 2017, 09:24:28 AM
The things I do for you lot. ::) So I decided to wear one of my wool coats out in a pretty heavy rain this morning while walking the dog It was raining pretty hard for periods and only lightened up at times and I was out for about 45 minutes and in that time it absorbed quite a bit of water but was still showing the new spots at the end of the walk, showing it wasn't saturated.
(https://forum.multitool.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=73728.0;attach=338668)
I was very pleasantly surprised to find the inside felt completely dry to the touch. My jeans on the other hand were soaked though and very unpleasant.
(https://forum.multitool.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=73728.0;attach=338670)
After getting home I hung it up in a unheated room (about 17degC) and checked again about two hours later and the outside was mostly dry. However the inside now feels, very slightly, damp.
My feelings about this are; I was pretty pleased with how it preformed TBH, it really was raining hard and I didn't get wet the whole time I was out. In fact I would easily put this performance on par with a decent "soft shell" outer. I do think we need to be thinking as much about construction and weave as much as material. However, and I've said this more than a few times already, I'd not want to rely on this unless I knew I would be able to dry it out at some point.
I think there is an important distinction to be made here. There seems to be two almost entirely different types of garment being compared here. One being your coat here, It looks very much like my Austrian Loden and I guess that's what you have tere too, and things like tweed.
The second is the much less dense wool, often merino, that's used in things like underlayers.
These seem to work very different and it seems to me like which one you think of when talking about haswool might explain how well you expect it to work against rain. Generally here or seems like the people who doubt wool the most talk about the lighter merino garments and the people, me included, who are more on board with the idea are referring to the denser tweeds and similar.
Not so sure I agree. Merino is a breed of sheep that produce some of the finest quality and particularly prized wool not necessarily a type of clothing. The wool however is graded and not all Merino sheep produce clothing quality wool. What I am referring to personally is the wool specifically produced and graded for clothing as it has those prized qualities. Like I've said earlier, I dont live in a rainy environment so for me any such wool would do fine however I dont see myself using wool as an outer layer be it Merino or another type wool. Yes it has wonderful properties and yes its pretty fabulous in terms of how it performs. To me however its a mid layer or base layer for those wonderful and fabulous properties. Would I choose Merino for a cold day? Yes no question. For a windy day? Without hesitation. For a snowy day? Well it would have to snow in SoCal first but yes not a problem. Rainy? No. However looking at the link I provided I may have a change of heart. I am always open to learn and learn I am.
It was interesting to see Gareth coat and how it handled the rain. What concerns me is not being able to get it dry at whatever level of "wet". If one was out say, 3 days then what? Seems like a bad 2 days once the article of clothing is wet. Can it survive better than say Cotton? I'd most certainly agree yes. So the question to me is less about can it survive, but how long and then what?
http://www.woolmark.com/globalassets/woolmark/inspiration/activewear/merinoperform/merinoperform_eng.pdf/
In the days before we had any options I suspect the answer was to make sure you had somewhere dry every night and a fire to dry stuff out next too. Of course soldiers have managed to survive with woollen clothing for hundreds of year in all weathers. Though campaigning in winter was always seen as a bad idea, just ask Napoleon. For all the horrors of WW1 millions of soldiers survived for weeks st a time in the rain and the mud without it being an automatic death sentence.
Post by: Aloha on September 26, 2017, 05:10:26 PM
I want to be clear wool is amazing I just never thought of wool as an outer layer in wet conditions. I have several lovely pieces that are not ideal for wet weather. I also don't live in an area that sees much rain. The link I shared should be very clear that wool is a must for anyone looking for a truly amazing performance material. The industry has clearly been making some terrific strides in wools capabilities. I am not 100% convinced wool is the best choice for prolonged wet weather. This was not the OP question but as in any good conversation we've touched on many ( to me ) relevant side topics and discussions. There is lots to learn and this thread has been great for that. :salute:
Post by: MadPlumbarian on September 26, 2017, 06:07:16 PM
JR
Post by: Aloha on September 26, 2017, 06:48:30 PM
Post by: MadPlumbarian on September 26, 2017, 07:33:06 PM
MadP, there has to be someone who has free wool blanket coat patterns online. I'm sure you can make one for the price of the blanket, zippers, thread, time, for much cheaper than $300. Go go it.True, but I ain’t that good, knowing my luck it would probably end up not fitting me and look wacky.
JR
Post by: Gareth on September 27, 2017, 12:45:52 PM
Post by: AimlessWanderer on September 27, 2017, 03:25:41 PM
Post by: Gareth on September 27, 2017, 03:46:38 PM
An interesting point has been touched on here. These days, we fixate upon getting the kit to suit our routine (first world problem), whereas in the old days, you adapted the routine to suit the kit available. We survived a good few millennia without synthetic materials, but it is almost deemed defeatist these days to have to compromise your routine in any way to accommodate kit limitations .... :shrug:
That's an excellent way of thinking about it I'd say. :tu:
Post by: Tired_Yeti on September 27, 2017, 06:21:09 PM
I've been seeing a bit of uprise in the line of thought that wool is a great outer layer for hiking, backpacking and other outdoor activities even in rain, snow and sleet.Yes, you're missing something...and it's in your own post. wool as an OUTER layer.
While I understand that wet wool still keeps it's insulation value, tests have shown that it still acts like a wet piece of clothing when it comes to windchill. And I can personally attest to that.
So am I missing something with this wool outer craze?
If it's your outer player then it's not directly against your skin. If your middle layer is windproof, it will block the windchill.
I lived in Alaska for 32 years and wore either a Filson Mackinaw Cruiser or a Filson Double Mackinaw Cruiser (pictured) for a couple decades worth of winters without a problem. Both are virgin wool.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170927/49984d6685892acff54837e61e89acb5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170927/e6f95e2132e8758432660fe27c1634a4.jpg)
I still have my Double mackie even though I live in Texas now. It's just too nice a coat to part with.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Tired_Yeti on September 27, 2017, 06:32:20 PM
Hmm...except that wool is curly so the orientation of each fiber changes over its length. So the overlapping scales, which are also found on human hair, don't always point away from the animal's body.Seems to work for sheep :shrug:
:whistle:
The fiber we know as wool that comes from sheep is made up of amino acids, which are the building blocks of protein. As wool grows on a sheep, it gets keratinized, which simply means it hardens. Other examples of keratinized proteins are fingernails and hair.
Wool fibers on a sheep have flat, overlapping scales that always point away from the sheep's body. When these wool fibers get processed and made into clothing, however, the fibers are stretched out. The orientation of the scales gets mixed up and they can be pointing in any random direction.
As any shepherd will tell you, sheep do just fine in the rain and don't shrink like a wool sweater. This is because their wool fibers have scales that are all pointing in the same direction.
When they get wet, they can slide back into position without getting caught or locked into place. No felting takes place on sheep in the rain, so they don't shrink!
Sheep also produce a natural oily substance called lanolin. Lanolin covers the wool fibers of their coats, acting as a natural lubricant that prevents fibers from locking together. Lanolin also repels water, which makes sheep somewhat waterproof when they're out in the rain. This is good for sheep, since it prevents their wool from getting soaked and waterlogged, which would be very uncomfortable since they have so much wool!
Lanolin is the secret--which you had mentioned. It's what gives wool it's water resistance.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: styx on September 27, 2017, 06:42:54 PM
I've been seeing a bit of uprise in the line of thought that wool is a great outer layer for hiking, backpacking and other outdoor activities even in rain, snow and sleet.Yes, you're missing something...and it's in your own post. wool as an OUTER layer.
While I understand that wet wool still keeps it's insulation value, tests have shown that it still acts like a wet piece of clothing when it comes to windchill. And I can personally attest to that.
So am I missing something with this wool outer craze?
If it's your outer player then it's not directly against your skin. If your middle layer is windproof, it will block the windchill.
I lived in Alaska for 32 years and wore either a Filson Mackinaw Cruiser or a Filson Double Mackinaw Cruiser (pictured) for a couple decades worth of winters without a problem. Both are virgin wool.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170927/49984d6685892acff54837e61e89acb5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170927/e6f95e2132e8758432660fe27c1634a4.jpg)
I still have my Double mackie even though I live in Texas now. It's just too nice a coat to part with.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
so basically a windproof mid layer under the wool outer. why does that sound reversed somehow?
Post by: Gareth on September 28, 2017, 09:17:09 AM
I've been seeing a bit of uprise in the line of thought that wool is a great outer layer for hiking, backpacking and other outdoor activities even in rain, snow and sleet.Yes, you're missing something...and it's in your own post. wool as an OUTER layer.
While I understand that wet wool still keeps it's insulation value, tests have shown that it still acts like a wet piece of clothing when it comes to windchill. And I can personally attest to that.
So am I missing something with this wool outer craze?
If it's your outer player then it's not directly against your skin. If your middle layer is windproof, it will block the windchill.
I lived in Alaska for 32 years and wore either a Filson Mackinaw Cruiser or a Filson Double Mackinaw Cruiser (pictured) for a couple decades worth of winters without a problem. Both are virgin wool.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170927/49984d6685892acff54837e61e89acb5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170927/e6f95e2132e8758432660fe27c1634a4.jpg)
I still have my Double mackie even though I live in Texas now. It's just too nice a coat to part with.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Those look like fantastic coats. :drool:
Post by: Tired_Yeti on September 28, 2017, 03:16:03 PM
Maybe you're envisioning a thin wool jacket? The Filson coats I wore were made of 24oz. and 26oz. virgin wool. They were definitely made to be your outer layer. You'd have a hard time fitting something over one. You might be able fit a very oversized raincoat or poncho over one, I suppose.I've been seeing a bit of uprise in the line of thought that wool is a great outer layer for hiking, backpacking and other outdoor activities even in rain, snow and sleet.Yes, you're missing something...and it's in your own post. wool as an OUTER layer.
While I understand that wet wool still keeps it's insulation value, tests have shown that it still acts like a wet piece of clothing when it comes to windchill. And I can personally attest to that.
So am I missing something with this wool outer craze?
If it's your outer player then it's not directly against your skin. If your middle layer is windproof, it will block the windchill.
I lived in Alaska for 32 years and wore either a Filson Mackinaw Cruiser or a Filson Double Mackinaw Cruiser (pictured) for a couple decades worth of winters without a problem. Both are virgin wool.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170927/49984d6685892acff54837e61e89acb5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170927/e6f95e2132e8758432660fe27c1634a4.jpg)
I still have my Double mackie even though I live in Texas now. It's just too nice a coat to part with.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
so basically a windproof mid layer under the wool outer. why does that sound reversed somehow?
Wool is durable and retains its thermal properties even when damp so if your under layer blocks the wind from your skin, a heavy wool coat will still keep you warm. At least in my experience.
The downside, in my experience, is that wool can be rather heavy; whereas, Gortex isn't. You can imagine a coat made of 24oz. per square yard fabric isn't lightweight.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Tired_Yeti on September 28, 2017, 03:28:14 PM
Those look like fantastic coats. :drool:I love them! They look stylish, have pockets for days, and they're warm. They're virgin wool so they can feel a little scratchy. Below about 20 degrees F, you might need to start adding layers under it.
https://www.filson.com
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: styx on September 28, 2017, 04:04:55 PM
Maybe you're envisioning a thin wool jacket? The Filson coats I wore were made of 24oz. and 26oz. virgin wool. They were definitely made to be your outer layer. You'd have a hard time fitting something over one. You might be able fit a very oversized raincoat or poncho over one, I suppose.I've been seeing a bit of uprise in the line of thought that wool is a great outer layer for hiking, backpacking and other outdoor activities even in rain, snow and sleet.Yes, you're missing something...and it's in your own post. wool as an OUTER layer.
While I understand that wet wool still keeps it's insulation value, tests have shown that it still acts like a wet piece of clothing when it comes to windchill. And I can personally attest to that.
So am I missing something with this wool outer craze?
If it's your outer player then it's not directly against your skin. If your middle layer is windproof, it will block the windchill.
I lived in Alaska for 32 years and wore either a Filson Mackinaw Cruiser or a Filson Double Mackinaw Cruiser (pictured) for a couple decades worth of winters without a problem. Both are virgin wool.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170927/49984d6685892acff54837e61e89acb5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170927/e6f95e2132e8758432660fe27c1634a4.jpg)
I still have my Double mackie even though I live in Texas now. It's just too nice a coat to part with.
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so basically a windproof mid layer under the wool outer. why does that sound reversed somehow?
Wool is durable and retains its thermal properties even when damp so if your under layer blocks the wind from your skin, a heavy wool coat will still keep you warm. At least in my experience.
The downside, in my experience, is that wool can be rather heavy; whereas, Gortex isn't. You can imagine a coat made of 24oz. per square yard fabric isn't lightweight.
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Could be that I'm also thinking about something more loosely woven.
So how did you layer the things under it? For some reason a windproof layer to me is a bright colored windshirt and that is tripping me up very much
Post by: Aloha on September 28, 2017, 05:09:18 PM
Post by: knifty on September 30, 2017, 10:36:50 PM
An interesting point has been touched on here. These days, we fixate upon getting the kit to suit our routine (first world problem), whereas in the old days, you adapted the routine to suit the kit available. We survived a good few millennia without synthetic materials, but it is almost deemed defeatist these days to have to compromise your routine in any way to accommodate kit limitations .... :shrug:
Chalk that up to how much we're bombarded by advertisements. Most magazines are nothing more than disguised press releases to get you buy the next better thing.
https://youtu.be/R3SFqV0hMyo
Post by: knifty on September 30, 2017, 10:49:25 PM
Wool is durable and retains its thermal properties even when damp so if your under layer blocks the wind from your skin, a heavy wool coat will still keep you warm. At least in my experience.
The downside, in my experience, is that wool can be rather heavy; whereas, Gortex isn't. You can imagine a coat made of 24oz. per square yard fabric isn't lightweight.
Yup. Back before synthetics, your only options were wool, fur, or waxed cotton, and they're all heavy compared to today's technologies. When you think about it, the lightweight down jackets we now see everywhere are a relatively modern invention (by Eddie Bauer in the 1940s). To get that level of warmth back in the day, you'd probably have to pile on two jackets.
Post by: Syncop8r on September 30, 2017, 11:09:12 PM
On the subject of buying the latest biggest and best gear....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAtzN_ScKXY
Post by: styx on October 01, 2017, 10:39:08 AM
In the ultra light community you've got guys like Andrew Skurka and Chris Townsend who are well known, respectable and knowledgeable. The two of them have very different opinions on windshirts for instance.
Then you can add guys like Ross from Woodtrekker or Piotr Ma who aren't household names but fit in some area between lightweight backpacking and other outdoor, more traditional, activities for lack of a better description that add up weight. Again a lot of differences in weight and approach.
On topof that you have a lot of strong traditional communities like the bushcraft community that have their approach. Actually the garment that led to my initial confusion if the Lester river Boreal shirt
Post by: Aloha on October 01, 2017, 04:39:24 PM
When you take into consideration that we also have a lot of approaches and discussions within those approaches, no wonder it gets to confusion through over analyzing things.
In the ultra light community you've got guys like Andrew Skurka and Chris Townsend who are well known, respectable and knowledgeable. The two of them have very different opinions on windshirts for instance.
Then you can add guys like Ross from Woodtrekker or Piotr Ma who aren't household names but fit in some area between lightweight backpacking and other outdoor, more traditional, activities for lack of a better description that add up weight. Again a lot of differences in weight and approach.
On topof that you have a lot of strong traditional communities like the bushcraft community that have their approach. Actually the garment that led to my initial confusion if the Lester river Boreal shirt
Seems whomever you tend to feel more akin to in terms of philosophies is the direction one will head. When one is peeling off labels from food tins to save weight ( :whistle: ) then certain material make sense. Certainly the traditionalist will tend to favor natural materials. Then you have everyone in between.
I seem to be in the middle somewhere. I do love my wool. I go to my local resell shops and scour the isles to find wool. I have got some decent pieces. Since it doesn't rain a whole lot in SoCal let alone snow ( ;) ) I can get away with nearly any material. I do not want or like to have my outer layer wet tho which is why I'll choose a breathable outer layer with a wool mid layer.
Post by: styx on October 01, 2017, 05:23:57 PM
Post by: Aloha on October 01, 2017, 09:55:23 PM
I think something can be learned from all approaches and a mix of them can give just about anyone the right answer for that individual
Yes I very much agree. We do know there are those who are slaves to traditions and those who need the next new material. I like technology as much as the next guy and also respect what has worked. The link I attached in one of my posts showed some wonderful advances in wool and how water and wind resistant/prof it has become. I'm all for this type of advance especially when keeping the integrity of the wool.
Post by: Gerhard Gerber on October 13, 2017, 12:31:26 PM
We had a bit of a cold spell this week, had to get out some warm clothes that had been packed away for a few weeks already.....
One of those was a wool sweater I got when I was 17, 1992 I think, critical point being that was in the middle of my growth spurt, so the sweater/jersey still fits....
I wore it regularly to work up until about 5 years ago, when it got relegated to about the house clothing.
That's a quarter century of service with some life left. :salute:
The main reason why Fleece has replaced wool in my wardrobe is price and quality, one went up and the other down.......no prizes for guessing which :facepalm:
Post by: styx on October 13, 2017, 06:23:45 PM
Post by: AlephZero on October 13, 2017, 07:19:19 PM
so it felt like seeing an old friend after years of mischief?
"felt"... *snigger*
:facepalm:
I'll see myself out, thank you...
Post by: styx on October 13, 2017, 07:56:23 PM
so it felt like seeing an old friend after years of mischief?
"felt"... *snigger*
:facepalm:
I'll see myself out, thank you...
no need