Multitool.org Forum
Outdoor Section => The Outdoor and Survival Forum => Topic started by: Aloha on June 05, 2014, 07:32:00 AM
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I honestly haven't watched survival shows since Surviorman. I was never really all that impressed with the whole production of Bear's show. I recently watched an episode of Dual Survivor and not knowing the premise it dawned on me......... I think I'd prefer to have the skills of Matt Graham/Cody Lundin and others who have similar skills, primitive vs say military.
I sure in a most our "kits" we have several ways to start a fire but I find it fascinating watching these guys make fire. I found it equally fascinating when Matt used some resin from a tree as a natural barrier from insects. I see he has a knife but damn he's also only wearing a pair of sandals and shorts.
What are your thoughts?
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I haven't seen this weeks duel survival, I'll be watching it later, so I've only seen Matt in last weeks episode, but as for my thought on survival? Military's great, but in order to survive out in the woods your not going to need gun training or hand to hand combat, fire starting is going to be more important.. JR
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I honestly can't really say which one I'd prefer to have. Both are lacking in some areas, but together they do complement and cover the disadvantages.
For me it's somehow more natural to take the "hillbilly" approach to those sorts of things. Two people that would now be a very good example of that are Dave Canterbury (started off as a military skills guy but is now implementing a lot of primitive stuff too) and Mykel Hawke (same thing as Dave C). That's just the way I've been raised and taught - rely on equipment and easy practical stuff when you can but have the knowledge at the ready for when you can't
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I honestly can't really say which one I'd prefer to have. Both are lacking in some areas, but together they do complement and cover the disadvantages.
For me it's somehow more natural to take the "hillbilly" approach to those sorts of things. Two people that would now be a very good example of that are Dave Canterbury (started off as a military skills guy but is now implementing a lot of primitive stuff too) and Mykel Hawke (same thing as Dave C). That's just the way I've been raised and taught - rely on equipment and easy practical stuff when you can but have the knowledge at the ready for when you can't
This is where my mind was going as I watched. Taking things that have been passed down generations and making subtle improvements or tweaks. Of course some not everything will improve with tweaks so knowing how to make fire and purify water with out tablets will be very important. Catching animals and knowing what plants are edible are going to keep you alive. I wont be in any of these situations ( I hope ) but it sure was interesting to watch. I miss Les Stroud, that guy kept it simple IMO.
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The beauty of it all is that we don't NEED the skills very often, but having them can be beneficial. I'm having a similar issue with my girlfriend since she wants to do all of that monkeybusiness but doesn't have a lot of knowledge.
So the approach I'm taking is to think of things in steps. Highest would be the most technological advanced one and the lowest would be the primitive one. No sense in teaching her primitive fire for example (a skill I'm lacking as well) if she has issues getting a fire lit with matches or a lighter and some sort of man made accelerant.
This is the same way I was taught by my gramps and my big brother.
What bothers me about a lot of shows and groups is that they go after one idea and dismiss everything else. Be it fight nature, only primitive works or even just total reliance of certain tools and phrases while rejecting others. An example would be the use of the word thrive in nature. It has become an idea of it's own but with faulty logic that spending an X amount of days roughing it means one has it all figured out.
Since you mentioned Les Stroud, he is one of the guys that kept it realistic. You use what you got, you go hungry, you rely on the skills and knowledge that you have and you always try to do it easy mode
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Well the other thing about Les, is what you see is what he's got, no crews hiding behind the camera nor telling him what's good or bad or where to go. JR
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I prefer to keep it simple. If you dont know how to build a shelter, bring a tent. If you dont know how to make a fire without matches. Bring lots of matches, some waterproof.
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I prefer to keep it simple. If you dont know how to build a shelter, bring a tent. If you dont know how to make a fire without matches. Bring lots of matches, some waterproof.
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Agreed :tu:. I was thinking with all the BOBs and SHTF Bags and what ever bags many have prepared, WHAT IF.....................
What if you really had to survive and your fire making tools some how got misplaced.......?
Your water purification tablets got ruined.......?
Your SERE or whatever booklet was destroyed.........?
I think a basic fundamental understanding AND real life application ( testing of said understanding ) would prove vital.
I don't mean to be rude but can a out of shape, smoker, couch surfer really make it with all his high tech bug out gear??? I see so much stuff regarding SHTF and wonder can a city guy guy like myself even make it. I'm fit and have a basic understanding yet I have only day hiked and car camped. If all we have prepared for is 72 hours then what??? Pray Red Cross shows up? Maybe this is why I don't watch this sort of programming :think:. I feel so unprepared hahaha.
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I prefer to keep it simple. If you dont know how to build a shelter, bring a tent. If you dont know how to make a fire without matches. Bring lots of matches, some waterproof.
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Agreed :tu:. I was thinking with all the BOBs and SHTF Bags and what ever bags many have prepared, WHAT IF.....................
What if you really had to survive and your fire making tools some how got misplaced.......?
Your water purification tablets got ruined.......?
Your SERE or whatever booklet was destroyed.........?
I think a basic fundamental understanding AND real life application ( testing of said understanding ) would prove vital.
I don't mean to be rude but can a out of shape, smoker, couch surfer really make it with all his high tech bug out gear??? I see so much stuff regarding SHTF and wonder can a city guy guy like myself even make it. I'm fit and have a basic understanding yet I have only day hiked and car camped. If all we have prepared for is 72 hours then what??? Pray Red Cross shows up? Maybe this is why I don't watch this sort of programming :think:. I feel so unprepared hahaha.
I think the key is practice. If you havent spent some time outside using your gear and knowledge, You will probably get a lot of surprises and make a lot of mistakes the day you actually need to use it in a stressfull situation. Imagine trying to find a good spot to set up a tent you have never used. Then imagine trying to set it up with the light fading fast, beeing stressed, surrounded by your stressed family who need a shelter, and you dont have any idea of what goes where or if you even have all the parts you need. And then imagine that you actually finally get up only to discover that you dont have room for everyone.
Having put up the tent in the backyard a few times with your family and then use it, will make sure you have all the parts, and that you know what goes where and that you have room for everyone.
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Again agreed :tu: with all said. I watched a video recently and laughed at the presenter as he took all the contents out. He really just piled a bunch of stuff into a bag he probably saw on video and had no clue what it really was for or how to use.
I think a few times year it would be good for families to "test" eating simply and sparingly for 72 hours. Most live in such comfort that going without the quantity of food consumed daily would be very difficult. If you consume alcohol nightly and smoke it would be good to give it up for 72 hours as well. I fast several times a year either completely or partially. I have gone 30 days every year for the past 20 years on a partial fast ( limited caloric intake ) one meal per day. I have also gone on several liquid only fasts lasting a week. NOTE please don't fast if you haven't consulted your doctor prior!!!!!.
I'd like to see 1 or 2 unhappy kids added to the stress level of having to "bug out". Toss in a unhappy wife or gf and :facepalm:. You better have a plan and know how to get your ish together quickly.
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my 5 cent:
Clean dirty water
Make fire
Trap game
Know edible and toxic plants
Build a shelter
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my 5 cent:
Clean dirty water
Make fire
Trap game
Know edible and toxic plants
Build a shelter
:salute: Yes
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I read about and watched the fire making techniques, but Ive never tried either the bow or hand drill. I really want to try some time, I dont even know about what woods selection to use.
Regarding the dual survival show, the primitive skills are whats important. The military guys are tough, but dont seem to bring much to the table survival wise. In fact in the last episode in mexico I dont see joe doing much and really if he wasnt there the other guy would be just fine. He makes the fires, he makes the shelters, he gets a turkey with his hands... etc... Oh wait joe did make a pillow out of leaves... :facepalm:
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I read about and watched the fire making techniques, but Ive never tried either the bow or hand drill. I really want to try some time, I dont even know about what woods selection to use.
Regarding the dual survival show, the primitive skills are whats important. The military guys are tough, but dont seem to bring much to the table survival wise. In fact in the last episode in mexico I dont see joe doing much and really if he wasnt there the other guy would be just fine. He makes the fires, he makes the shelters, he gets a turkey with his hands... etc... Oh wait joe did make a pillow out of leaves... :facepalm:
And complained a lot. I think the easy going nature of Matt is great in those type situations. I believe taking things back to aboriginal man/woman has advantages IF smurf really did hit the fan.
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Interesting topic, I was just practicing on making a bamboo fire saw yesterday.
I too do agree with Grathr, that practice is probably key to survival skill and totally support the idea of backyard practice. The reason being--if I can't even do it in a comfortable setting, I will never be able to do it in stress.
Of the all the survival skills, my priorities(to practice and in real situation)are:
Rescue plan in advance(call friends/family before any outing)
First aid
Signal
Shelter
Fire
Water
Navigation
Food
These skills include how best to use the items in my kit to the fullest or improvising with local material. I put rescue plan/first aid/signal above all, because the sole purpose of my survival kit is to sustain my sorry ass till rescued.
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Interesting question. :tu: There are some fundamental skills and knowledge that no amount of trinkets and toys are going to compensate for. For example: donesn't matter what fire lighting geegaws you have if you don't know how to lay a fire, no matter how good your shelter is you need to know how to pick a good site, you can have the very best knife money can buy but it'll be no good to you if you then proceed to cut your own thumb off....;) and no matter how much paracord you have you really should know at least a few knots.
IMO once you have these very basics you can then go on too making things quicker/lighter/more primitive or whatever.
As already said there is no replacement for practical experience, though I'd always strongly recommend not throwing yourself out in the great outdoors without going with someone who has the experience you might lack. Also keep in mind that skills and knowledge of one environment doesn't automatically make you prepared for everthing. :)
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I'll take the the challenge. I am going to try to make a fire from scratch. :salute:
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So, i spent 10 minutes to make a fire bow with some scrap dry teak wood and paracord. Seems the bow action is good, the contact point on top is in a blunt tip and the bottom one is a broad nib for more friction. The base friction hole does get pretty hot, but after 10 minutes of action, no smoke, and no fire. :facepalm:
I lit a smoke with my lighter, and will do a second attempt in a while.
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So, i spent 10 minutes to make a fire bow with some scrap dry teak wood and paracord. Seems the bow action is good, the contact point on top is in a blunt tip and the bottom one is a broad nib for more friction. The base friction hole does get pretty hot, but after 10 minutes of action, no smoke, and no fire. :facepalm:
I lit a smoke with my lighter, and will do a second attempt in a while.
Cool, I gotta try over the weekend. If I get remotely close I'll film it. I know the relative hardness of the woods is important, but I dont know what it should be :think:
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So I contemplated what I was doing wrong... I changed my stance so I could put more pressure on the top. And guess what? I got smoke. A lot of smoke. Teak smells rather nice when it is burning. But still I could not get a flame going. Guess I need some tinder or something.
Then my wife came in and told me to stop. :oops:
I was doing this experiment in the comfort of my sofa, on the living room table in my wood tobbacco stuff tray.
I took a pic and you can clearly see that the wood got burned quite a lot. It also shows the bottom piece of wood, and the steak with the tripple wrap paracord.
(https://scontent-a-mad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/10440260_10153130413876664_5673068261796165948_n.jpg)
To be continued outside tomorrow. :salute: The goal is to make fire!
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Cool! Did you cut a little channel for the dust to collect in, I cant tell? I think the idea is the fine hot dust piles up and that becomes your ember. Then move the ember to your tinder and blow
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Cool! Did you cut a little channel for the dust to collect in, I cant tell? I think the idea is the fine hot dust piles up and that becomes your ember. Then move the ember to your tinder and blow
Nope. I just tried what came to mind. A channel or groove for tinder material seems like a good idea. Thanks for the tip. I will adjust a few things to cater for this. A bigger bottom section hole where I can put some fine shavings and some cotton in. The setup can be modified quite easy as it is very rudimentary.
I remember that I saw a program once about the African bushmen. They had a small bag in which they carried their fire making setup - just a few dry sticks and some tinder. I guess once you have a setup that works, you can keep using it for a while. After you master the technique, it should not take longer then 5 minutes to create a fire.
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Ya if you have a hearth board that works well, you can get quite a few fires out of it.
I've never tried yet so Im no expert, but the hearth V cut seems to be what most people do.
(http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab184/jayvelasco/misc/bow-drill_part_05_zps6c480896.jpg)
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Interesting question. :tu: There are some fundamental skills and knowledge that no amount of trinkets and toys are going to compensate for. For example: donesn't matter what fire lighting geegaws you have if you don't know how to lay a fire, no matter how good your shelter is you need to know how to pick a good site, you can have the very best knife money can buy but it'll be no good to you if you then proceed to cut your own thumb off....;) and no matter how much paracord you have you really should know at least a few knots.
IMO once you have these very basics you can then go on too making things quicker/lighter/more primitive or whatever.
As already said there is no replacement for practical experience, though I'd always strongly recommend not throwing yourself out in the great outdoors without going with someone who has the experience you might lack. Also keep in mind that skills and knowledge of one environment doesn't automatically make you prepared for everthing. :)
^^^ Brilliant! This is perfectly said.
@Microbe I'm glad you took up the challenge and now I will also take part. I'll be in the mountains on Sunday and will attempt to make FIYAAAA, at least I hope so.
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Cheers Aloha. :cheers:
Great effort Microbe. Fire by friction is something I've never quite managed yet but I'm going to have to try again. :tu:
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I'll take the the challenge. I am going to try to make a fire from scratch. :salute:
Here's a few helpful links;
http://www.bushcraft.ridgeonnet.com/bowdrill%20tutorial.htm
http://paulkirtley.co.uk/2011/bowdrill/
http://www.practicalsurvivor.com/bowdrill
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At 5000ft above sea level yesterday I can tell you making fire, making shelter, and finding food would be very difficult for me. I'm a city guy who loves the outdoors but I know my limits. It was a gorgeous day out hiking and I was prepared as best I could. I'd be smurfed if I had to make it with just a knife but I'd never go beyond my capabilities anyway.
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Beautiful terrain!
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Yeah, that's a great looking place for a hike mate. :tu:
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Cheers Aloha. :cheers:
Great effort Microbe. Fire by friction is something I've never quite managed yet but I'm going to have to try again. :tu:
I gave it another go yesterday. Fail again. :facepalm:
I think I will stick to using a lighter. :whistle:
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Cheers Aloha. :cheers:
Great effort Microbe. Fire by friction is something I've never quite managed yet but I'm going to have to try again. :tu:
I gave it another go yesterday. Fail again. :facepalm:
I think I will stick to using a lighter. :whistle:
I am in the same shoes as Aloha, and did failed with the bamboo fire saw miserably. Honestly, my survival skill/experience are rather limited, and that's probably the reason I try to construct my kit as best as I can, just to up my odd chances a bit.
For the fire saw, I think I knew the problem right from the start, that piece of bamboo off beach probably has high water content, and the setup really disintegrate quite fast after the smoke. But raw fire starting skill is certainly something I want to have, especially the knowledge of picking the right materials from start.
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1. Finding water
2. Finding food
3. Starting a campfire
4. Building a shelter
5. Using compass or what else you have to find your way
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There was a book called 'How to Survive' by Brian Hilderth, I think it's out of print now but its worth getting hold of a copy if you can. I'm sure I read somewhere it initially intended for aircrew but then later adapted for children (I didn't know any of my peers that snared, prepared and cooked food though).
He used an acronym PFAWF which had two meanings Priority First Actions When Foundered and also Protection, First Aid, Aid (tools, equipment etc), Water, Food.
I was given this book when I was 8 and I didn't have to look for it to type any of this. A combination of this book, further training I received courtesy of the tax payer have made sure I have been ok so far. But in my opinion, and I'm not saying this is right, look at what you do, where you go and then look at the risks. Then decide what you need to learn based on PFAWF.
I'm off to find my copy of the book now, it must be 30 years since I last picked it up
Cheers :salute:
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There was a book called 'How to Survive' by Brian Hilderth, I think it's out of print now but its worth getting hold of a copy if you can. I'm sure I read somewhere it initially intended for aircrew but then later adapted for children (I didn't know any of my peers that snared, prepared and cooked food though).
He used an acronym PFAWF which had two meanings Priority First Actions When Foundered and also Protection, First Aid, Aid (tools, equipment etc), Water, Food.
I was given this book when I was 8 and I didn't have to look for it to type any of this. A combination of this book, further training I received courtesy of the tax payer have made sure I have been ok so far. But in my opinion, and I'm not saying this is right, look at what you do, where you go and then look at the risks. Then decide what you need to learn based on PFAWF.
I'm off to find my copy of the book now, it must be 30 years since I last picked it up
Cheers :salute:
Last year while helping out some older folk I came across a small old book in the donation pile.
I opened it up randomly to a page and read "Remember PFAWF. Someday, somewhere, it may save your life!"
After a good laugh at such an odd acronym I carefully placed it to one side to read later.
Now "How To Survive" lives on my bookshelf, right between "Physics For Men" and "The Hobbit".