Post by: gene stoner on March 08, 2018, 09:40:00 PM
http://soldiersystems.net/2018/03/07/victorinox-multitool-available-via-nsn/
Post by: glenfiddich1983 on March 08, 2018, 09:48:38 PM
Post by: Lynn LeFey on March 08, 2018, 09:50:12 PM
Very cool. :tu:
Post by: Nix on March 08, 2018, 09:51:39 PM
Thanks, gene.
Post by: tango44 on March 08, 2018, 10:32:26 PM
How to buy one?
Thank you.
Post by: Lynn LeFey on March 08, 2018, 11:50:27 PM
Is it available to the public or just for the military?
How to buy one?
Thank you.
The tool itself just looks to be a Victorinox Swisstool BS. The belt pouch is just the Victorinox Nylon Belt Pouch, with the only difference being the 'U.S.' stamp. If you don't care about that stamp, just buy the items separately. If you DO want the stamp, the numbers listed are for military requisition. Not civilian purchase. You'll probably have to wait until someone sells their requisitioned gear on ebay, and... good luck with that. The prices will be crazy high on them for a while, and considering how good the tool is, I don't think many will come up for auction at all. At least not soon.
Post by: Wspeed on March 09, 2018, 12:10:46 AM
Post by: cody6268 on March 09, 2018, 12:53:43 AM
Post by: McStitchy on March 09, 2018, 01:27:25 AM
Thinking about it, I remember someone mentioning that the Swisstool and Spirit do have problems with stuck and/or very hard to deploy tools when exposed to sand. Because of the tight tolerances they're manufactured to :think:
Post by: ToolJoe on March 09, 2018, 02:46:14 AM
Post by: Lynn LeFey on March 09, 2018, 03:35:13 AM
First, the 111mm Soldier knife, now this.
Very cool. :tu:
For future reference, here's the article discussing the Defense Logistics Agency adding the Soldier to their order list. And in case the article goes away, the Soldier is now officially referenced as national stock number (NSN – 1095-01-653-1166).
https://www.knife-depot.com/blog/new-victorinox-knife-recommended-to-members-of-u-s-military/
Post by: Obi1shinobee on March 09, 2018, 04:58:53 AM
Post by: Thunderpants on March 09, 2018, 09:29:30 AM
Post by: ReamerPunch on March 09, 2018, 09:40:29 AM
Post by: Guardian on March 09, 2018, 02:29:23 PM
You can buy the US knife on ebay, see https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,76108.0.html
So probably won’t be long for the Swisstool :tu:
Post by: McStitchy on March 09, 2018, 02:35:39 PM
Personally, I think it would be suicide to parachute into German occupied France without a corkscrew.
:rofl:
Post by: tango44 on March 14, 2018, 06:13:47 PM
Or yes????
Post by: tango44 on April 02, 2018, 03:53:08 PM
Few questions for the swiss experts:
1- Why does the black oxide finish has stains on it?
2- Why they don´t use black rivets on both sides of the tool?
3- What are those circles marks on the rivet area?
4- The large flat screw driver has so much play?
Is this normal?
Here are a few pics...
Let me know what you think.
Thank you.
Post by: Don Pablo on April 02, 2018, 04:12:09 PM
Post by: tango44 on April 02, 2018, 04:17:18 PM
Post by: LeaF on April 02, 2018, 04:35:48 PM
Seems, I already wrote about this fact here, in MTO and got an answer that's a regular practice for BO tools from Victorinox.
D - Dissapointment..
Post by: jalind on April 02, 2018, 05:22:12 PM
- Anyone can get a CAGE Code (CAGE = Commercial and Government Entity; required for DoD suppliers). Simply apply for it; normal process is about 45 days.
- Anyone can get a NSN issued for something they'd like to sell to the US Government and Armed Forces. Only requires asking one of the several gov't agencies that sponsors assigning a NSN to something to do it.
- It does not mean there's any contract from the US Government to buy any or that any US Government agency plans to buy any.
- DLA (Defense Logistics Agency) does this routinely for contractors that request it.
- Contractors hoping to sell something to Uncle Sam frequently do this and then try to drum up business, almost like door-to-door salesmen.
This is the same kind of deal. The same company is attempting to sell a Swiss Tool to Uncle Sam as a pass through that has minimal processing done to give it US Government and Armed Forces livery markings.
Just because there's a CAGE Code and NSN does not mean Uncle Sam has bought a single one of them or has any plans to. Items like this typically go through evaluation and testing at the US Army's Natick Soldier System Center (aka Natick Labs) in Natick, Massachusetts. It's the engineering and development center for soldiers' personal clothing and equipment. Even though it's operated by the US Army, the USAF and USMC often coattail on their engineering and development, especially the USAF. Uncle Sam doesn't buy this kind of stuff at the drop of a hat. The enormous clue about what's going on with this is the name of the company and the email address for the dudes hawking them. Same as the alleged US Army Soldier Knife:
Windrose Group, LLC
xxxxxxx@gmail.com
What company of any size with any revenue uses a "gmail" email address for company email? They can't even get their own domain name from GoDaddy and use it as an alias?
John
Post by: tango44 on April 02, 2018, 05:33:36 PM
But I wanted a black swisstool any way!
Thank you.
Post by: jalind on April 02, 2018, 06:08:57 PM
Good to know, I tough that the gov had a contract with them.
But I wanted a black swisstool any way!
Thank you.
If a blackout Swiss Tool floats your boat, go for it and get a Swiss Tool BS! Don't get hopes up on getting one marked US with a NSN from Windrose LLC though as I seriously doubt they've got many on hand. It happened with the knife. They wouldn't sell to private parties who wanted to buy one after dumping a pile out to AUSA and SFA as they weren't in any level of actual production and weren't geared or staffed to make private sales of one, two or a few, like a retailer. They needed Uncle Sam to buy a pile of them to put them into production and that never happened.
Soldier Systems is a daily industry rag, or more correctly an "ezine" primarily for companies who are selling and especially for those trying to sell tactical stuff to DoD. You can see the latest in "tacticool" on their web site, but don't jump to any conclusions that everything you see there is being sold to Uncle Sam. Much of it isn't. US companies collectively expend enormous resources marketing stuff to DoD. The big government contractors like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics, Raytheon, Northrup Grumman, etc., spend many millions on it annually. (Notes about former big names: McDonnell Douglas was bought by Boeing 20 years ago, most of Hughes Aircraft was bought by Raytheon about the same time, and TRW was bought by Northrup Grumman 15 years ago).
I should clarify that the USMC also has its own facility on Parris Island to test, evaluate and develop things for Marines that are unique to their maritime and seaborne missions, which aren't the same as a land based army. Many things coattail on Natick such as the Kevlar helmet, ballistic vests and similar items, but other things come out of Parris for them, often incorporating work Natick has already done, such as their own OKC-3S bayonet in lieu of the US Army's M9 (they replaced the M7 with it 15 years after the US Army did with the M9).
John
Post by: jalind on April 02, 2018, 06:33:59 PM
[Cue scene from Wizard of Oz when Toto pulls back the curtain.]
https://www.manta.com/c/m...r1/the-windrose-group-llc (https://www.manta.com/c/mhhr3r1/the-windrose-group-llc)
Edit:
Same information as found above is also here:
http://www.buzzfile.com/business/The-Windrose-Group-LLC-570-974-6089
Jerald J. Rinder is President of Windrose Group, a privately held company (no surprise for a LLC) founded in 2016, two years ago. Odd that it's called a "group" as Manta and Buzzfile estimates their annual revenue at $56k per year employing a staff of approximately one employee.
John
Post by: smiller43147 on April 08, 2018, 04:46:40 AM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Victorinox-Swiss-Army-US-Soldier-Combat-Knife/152955035494?hash=item239cd49f66:g:J4QAAOSwAQBas9c8
Post by: jalind on April 08, 2018, 05:04:47 AM
eBay listing. $275 for a Soldier:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/...d49f66:g:J4QAAOSwAQBas9c8 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Victorinox-Swiss-Army-US-Soldier-Combat-Knife/152955035494?hash=item239cd49f66:g:J4QAAOSwAQBas9c8)
Yup - the Trekker created by the Windrose Group LLC that the US Government never bought a single one of. There's a number of them in the wild as the Windrose Group LLC (a one person company operating out of his home) took a case of them to the AUSA annual convention and offered them up for those that wanted to buy one. AUSA is a private organization and it was a private convention for AUSA members. Please do not be deceived that these were purchased or issued by the US Government to anyone. Uncle Sam did not buy a single one of them. There's another dude in Switzerland that has one on ePrey as well.
John
Post by: Nix on April 08, 2018, 05:07:16 AM
(http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/img_6541-440x570.jpg)
Post by: jalind on April 08, 2018, 05:14:14 AM
Looks like there is a NSN# for them.....That was posted before from the same article. A NSN means absolutely nothing. I could create John's Combat Framus, make a few for catalog photo shooting, get a CAGE Code for John's Framus Company and then get a NSN assigned to it. More crap has NSNs that the US Government has never sought (with a RFP or RFQ), asked for, contracted for, or bought, all done by big dreamers hoping to make a killing in the GSA Lottery trying to sell bazillions of something to Uncle Sam. If you had access to the NSN database, you'd be astounded at the stuff in it that Uncle Sam has never bought, is not buying and never will buy. This is Jerry's second time around attempting to sell something to the US Government. Hope he doesn't quit his Day Job (I know where he works).
(http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/img_6541-440x570.jpg)
Edit:
The "US Soldier" he created from a Trekker two years ago also has a NSN.
John
Post by: Nix on April 08, 2018, 05:30:33 AM
I always thought that if something had an NSN it could be purchased by gov't agencies.
But I note that this particular item seems to always default to "Soldier Systems". Odd.
I haven't had any luck finding a database listing '1095-01-670-1865' as a viable NSN item.
Post by: jalind on April 08, 2018, 05:51:46 AM
Interesting.
I always thought that if something had an NSN it could be purchased by gov't agencies.
But I note that this particular item seems to always default to "Soldier Systems". Odd.
I haven't had any luck finding a database listing '1095-01-670-1865' as a viable NSN item.
A variety of agencies including some state or local ones can request it if they want any. The problem with this stuff that clogs up the NSN database is DLA, GSA, and a couple other US Gov't agencies that buy stuff to put it into US Gov't inventory haven't bought a single one of them. You could "order" one and you'd never see it. There's no procurement contract to buy any and there's no contract award that would result in a procurement contract for them. All the pieces are in place if Jerry can somehow convince Uncle Sam to issue a contract to buy a few rail car loads from him. The CAGE Code sets up how Jerry would get paid by identifying his company as a unique entity. The NSN sets up how they would be procured. How he'd fulfill an order for many thousands in a short time is another matter. It's one man and his garage (or living room, or den, or spare bedroom; take your pick).
How this really works . . .
If Uncle Sam wants multi-tools for the US Armed Forces, DLA or GSA will publish a RFP in the Federal Register that will contain all the terms, conditions and specs along with how to submit the proposal, what's required with it, how the proposals will be evaluated and items tested, and the deadline for it. Along with that, Uncle Sam will invite a number of contractors known to produce such things in that commodity to bid (such an invitation does not guarantee anything or provide any advantage). If Uncle Sam were going to buy a BS SwissTool, it would, without doubt, come directly from Victorinox to Uncle Sam specs, not a pass-through from Jerry and his one-man company operating out of his home in Pennsylvania. It would be the result of a contract award after Uncle Sam evaluated bids from at least several mult-tool manufacturers with one or more of the losers undoubtedly suing the US Government for one thing or another trying to get the contract award undone to be reevaluated. Several losers to the recent M17 pistol contract awarded to Sig Sauer sued the US Government with a variety of claims about how the evaluation of the competing pistols and contract award decision itself was flawed. This is routine just as all the losers lawsuits not getting any traction is routine. Sig Sauer got the contract and has the contract.
John
Post by: an0nemus on April 08, 2018, 05:59:17 AM
So its basically a scam by this certain Jerald.
Post by: jalind on April 08, 2018, 06:09:47 AM
Thanks for the additional info, John. Really helpful. I posted the NSN in our local SAK FB group before I read your comments, and now deleted it.
So its basically a scam by this certain Jerald.
Not really a scam. He's not interested in selling onesie twosie to private buyers wanting to order one from him like eBay BIN or Amazon. It's a marketing ploy. He's trying to generate interest and clamoring demand from "grass roots" in the US Armed Forces for them with supply personnel trying to order them to issue them as discretionary non-consumable expendable items using the NSN. DLA isn't going to cut a contract or put a RFP in the Federal Register for a handful just because a few supply sergeants try to get a few dozen. Period. He's going about it all the wrong ways, but that doesn't stop the dreams. If Jerry made $3 net profit on every one passing through his house and sold a hundred thousand of them, which isn't a very large number of such an item in the US Armed Forces, he'd become quite rich from it having done very little but manage the pass-through operation. Therein lies the Big Dream. Costs zero to get a CAGE code. Costs all but zero to get a NSN. That's if you do it yourself and it's not that hard if you know who to call and contact which isn't a national secret either.
Discretionary:
Every organization has a small slush fund to expend on certain kinds of low cost items it feels it needs that are not part of the TO&E (Table of Organization and Equipment - what the unit is authorized and required to have, including personnel by MOS and rank).
Consumable vs Non-consumable:
A light bulb and toilet paper and bullets and beans are all consumable as is fuel and lubricants. They are naturally consumed in use. Non-consumable is something like the multi-tool. It may eventually wear out or possibly break, but it's not inherently consumed like a case of C-rations - or MREs now. Certain consumables, such as ammunition, are inherently consumed, but you can bet your butt it's accountable by exact number of rounds outside a combat zone (and in one there are other measures used for control). Similarly, fuel is a consumable under considerable control. Mogas, the military gasoline, is dyed red and you cannot get the dye out. Diesel is similarly marked indelibly. Consumption of it is accounted for in logs when it's dispensed - to whom and how much.
Expendable vs non-expendable or accountable:
Expendable items include some hand tools or similar things that can be replaced without necessarily having to perform a formal investigation about its loss, damage or destruction. A multi-tool would usually fall into such a class as it's not costly or a sensitive item. "Usually" is important as under some circumstances, an investigation is warranted and required. Otherwise tools and such would be routinely "lost" when the real mechanism is pilferage and theft. In general, to replace a tool you need to produce the one that was damaged or broken or have a damned good story about what happened to the one you had, one that passes multiple BS detectors. Senior NCOs have magnificent ones and by the time I was promoted to captain mine was quite excellent. Non-expendable items are on property books and must be accounted for. Loss, damage or destruction of non-expendables and especially accountable items is always investigated.
John
Post by: tosh on April 08, 2018, 09:18:44 AM
In reference to the above post stating Mogas is dyed red and impossible to get out, sounds a little bit like Red diesel used in this country which is tax exempt. It's supposedly only used in off road machinery or farm tractors, but I once heard a certain fertiliser (forget the name) would remove the red if the diesel was filtered through it!
Post by: hiraethus on April 08, 2018, 09:42:45 AM
Post by: Mechanickal on April 08, 2018, 10:28:07 AM
Your post is somewhat of a thunderstrike at clear skies.
Post by: tosh on April 08, 2018, 10:46:01 AM
I had literally 5 mins this morning before dashing out. I'm typing this pitch side waiting for my sons football match to begin, won't be home till later and won't be able to view MT'o until probably this evening, but suspect it will be tomorrow lunch break at work.
Oh to have a simple life with nothing to do.....
Post by: Mechanickal on April 08, 2018, 12:27:31 PM
:whistle:
Post by: twiliter on April 08, 2018, 01:28:39 PM
...In reference to the above post stating Mogas is dyed red and impossible to get out, sounds a little bit like Red diesel used in this country which is tax exempt. It's supposedly only used in off road machinery or farm tractors, but I once heard a certain fertiliser (forget the name) would remove the red if the diesel was filtered through it!
Here too Tosh, tax exempt diesel for farming/off highway is dyed red, but there is no cost effective way to remove or dilute the dye, you might as well pay the tax for road diesel. Along with that, there are places such as highway truck scales and mobile units that test for it, as a small amount, even a half gallon in a 150 gallon tank will earn you a violation. Whether or not the taxes they recover by testing covers the cost of the actual manpower and equipment to test for violators is debatable, but the fines are steep.
Post by: ThePeacent on April 08, 2018, 04:07:25 PM
the whole "made in USA" Scam, to call it something, reminds me too much of Mick Strider and his knives :rofl:
Post by: jalind on April 08, 2018, 09:01:26 PM
He's trying to become a wholesaler to the U.S. Gov't, convincing them to order these from him in enormous quantities for the U.S. Armed Forces. Given that he's one guy in his house with a day job I daresay he's not interested in selling one of these to any of us. He's not the only guy trying to do this with their latest Snake Oil for the troops either. You have to consider the number of uniformed personnel in the U.S. Armed Forces. It's well over two million. If you can sell one item that Uncle Sam decides every single one of them should have, and make a mere $1 net profit (after all costs other than taxes), you become an overnight millionaire. If you can do it with a near pass-through that requires very minimal value added (e.g. stamping a US Govt contract number, NSN, etc. on it), you make a killing in what's almost a drop-ship scheme.
There is no real deception by Jerry. Like every skilled marketer, he lets your mind fill in the blanks and gaps and what you'd like or want to believe. Many things on which this general ploy is used to try to sell something to Uncle Sam don't go noticed much. However, doing it with knives, sunglasses, pens, multi-tools and watches gets all sorts of attention from aficionados, collectors, and gear geeks, who then run off thinking that the US Armed Forces are issuing the stuff to everyone. My effort here is to show how the procurement process really works and that this kind of stuff is about someone trying to get their foot through the door to sell something, not to us, but to Uncle Sam.
Versus trying to sell something to the Dutch, Swedish or Latvian military (how many personnel and how large an annual budget?), selling something to the US Dept of Def. that would get issued to many, or better yet, every service member, has a potential market of well over two million. The risk (near zero as he has invested near zero) versus reward (into the millions) makes such ploys like this very attractive. If he doesn't sell a single one to Uncle Sam, what has he lost but a little time and the cost of a few samples. A minuscule wager with exceptionally low odds, but a gargantuan grand prize.
His stunt with the "US" marked blacked out Trekker at the 2016 AUSA annual meeting required some investment up front to create some, but the attendees there who wanted one had to buy them, as did the Special Forces Association (SFA) members that wanted one (another private organization). The AUSA annual meeting is as much if not more so an exhibitor convention with over 10,000 military and related hardware and services exhibitors for 30,000 members attending (one exhibitor for every three members in attendance says something about it). If he sold them all he got his money back out of them, and probably a tiny profit. The ploy at the AUSA convention was to get a pile of them into the hands of commissioned officers and some senior NCOs to create Big Buzz when they returned to their units afterward, showed all their buds, got seen by the enlisted troops, and hopefully generated a demand from the grass roots in the supply system using the NSN he already had assigned to it. Also showed up at one or more other conventions of folks looking to hawk their respective Snake Oil to the DoD (think SHOT Show for military hardware). Didn't work. His only interest in selling any of these "samples" was getting them into the hands of officers and NCOs who would influence demand from the US Armed Forces, not to sell them to you or me who couldn't do one whit in contributing toward that end. That the SAK and general knife collecting community went bonkers over their appearance was the collateral consequence of doing what he did, not the deliberate intent, with all manner of folks who don't know how GSA, DLA and DoD procurement works. That same collateral consequence is occurring here with his latest; substitute a SwissTool for the Trekker.
John
AUSA: Association of the United States Army
A private organization with membership dues for anyone who wants to join them and pays the dues. Nearly all of their membership is retired and currently serving active USA, USAR and National Guard officers and senior NCOs, plus some from the companies that make and sell stuff to DoD (or are trying to). The large majority of the officers are company grade (lieutenant and captain), but that's more the structure of the US Army by officer rank. There are far fewer majors compared to the number of captains alone. Uncertain how many NCOs are members. I would guess not that many, nor very many warrant officers (who are considered officers, not NCOs as in the UK and various military patterned after the UK). Warrants have their own private organization, the WOA, as do NCOs with the NCOA which covers all the Armed Forces.
Post by: an0nemus on April 09, 2018, 12:41:31 AM
Thanks, John. A real eye opener and interesting insight into the world of US military procurement.
I take back my initial impression that Jerry's scheme is a scam. He's just trying to make a fast buck, then.
Post by: Syph007 on April 09, 2018, 12:53:38 AM
Regarding the BO. All my Vic BOs swisstools look splotchy. BO treatment on stainless steel is harder to get perfect. I have a local place that does a good job on stainless but Vic's isnt as perfect.
What strikes me as odd is the non black rivets (at least they look it in your pic). I wonder if they assembled in a different way and that is why some tools have play? My BO'd swisstools have black rivets. It looks like they put something around that area too making that ring effect to protect the handles. BO'd tools can also be grittier than stock polished ones so they could have left the rivets not as tight on purpose.... hard to say.
Post by: jalind on April 09, 2018, 01:32:37 AM
So no more gerber eh.. At least the swisstools are solid bit of kit.
Regarding the BO. All my Vic BOs swisstools look splotchy. BO treatment on stainless steel is harder to get perfect. I have a local place that does a good job on stainless but Vic's isnt as perfect.
What strikes me as odd is the non black rivets (at least they look it in your pic). I wonder if they assembled in a different way and that is why some tools have play? My BO'd swisstools have black rivets. It looks like they put something around that area too making that ring effect to protect the handles. BO'd tools can also be grittier than stock polished ones so they could have left the rivets not as tight on purpose.... hard to say.
Read back through the entire thread. Uncle Sam hasn't bought a single one of these at any time past or present, and has no plans whatsoever to buy any in the future. There's no RFP to bid on, and no contract being awarded to buy anything other than what DoD, DLA and GSA have already been buying from Leatherman and/or Gerber (don't know which they're currently buying from).
Jerry having a CAGE Code and the tool having a NSN are meaningless. I could get a CAGE Code for me personally and then a NSN for used cardboard toilet paper tubes without spending a dime to do so (also requires getting a DUNS number), and without any government contract or RFP in the Federal Register asking for bids or quotes for used cardboard toilet paper tubes, or anything remotely resembling them.
John
Post by: jalind on April 09, 2018, 01:49:31 AM
Thanks, John. A real eye opener and interesting insight into the world of US military procurement.
I take back my initial impression that Jerry's scheme is a scam. He's just trying to make a fast buck, then.
Yup . . . and going about it the wrong way too. It will have the same success as his Soldier Knife did: zero.
John
Post by: an0nemus on April 09, 2018, 02:23:51 AM
Thanks, John. A real eye opener and interesting insight into the world of US military procurement.
I take back my initial impression that Jerry's scheme is a scam. He's just trying to make a fast buck, then.
Yup . . . and going about it the wrong way too. It will have the same success as his Soldier Knife did: zero.
John
I actually feel foolish right now as friends and I have been waiting for our Soldier Knives to arrive from a contact in the US for months. Yikes. :-[
Post by: jalind on April 09, 2018, 03:29:52 AM
Thanks, John. A real eye opener and interesting insight into the world of US military procurement.
I take back my initial impression that Jerry's scheme is a scam. He's just trying to make a fast buck, then.
Yup . . . and going about it the wrong way too. It will have the same success as his Soldier Knife did: zero.
John
I actually feel foolish right now as friends and I have been waiting for our Soldier Knives to arrive from a contact in the US for months. Yikes. :-[
If you search for the mythical soldier knife's NSN here, this is what you get:
https://www.iso-group.com/NSN/1095-01-653-1166
Edit: yet another site that searches NSNs . . .
https://www.nsncenter.com/NSN/1095-01-653-1166
Shows NSN is in system but comes up blank otherwise.
Don't feel foolish. Not many know how the US Gov't buys stuff for DoD unless they've worked in or around DoD logistics at the contract level.
John
Post by: jalind on April 09, 2018, 03:48:26 AM
https://www.iso-group.com....aspx?ss=1095-01-670-1865 (https://www.iso-group.com/Public/Search_Results.aspx?ss=1095-01-670-1865)
https://www.nsncenter.com...Search?q=1095-01-670-1865 (https://www.nsncenter.com/NSNSearch?q=1095-01-670-1865)
Doesn't exist in either database.
Edit: the latter "nsncenter" are results using the Web FLIS (Federal Logistics Information Service) which accesses DLA and FLIS: https://www.webflis.info/Home/WebFLIS
Quote
The WebFLIS service from the Federal Logistics Information Service (FLIS) of the Defense Logistics Agency (DLA) is an online search system for several public segments of the USA Federal Logistics Database for codified supplies that are represented by a permanent National Stock Number (NSN).
FEDLOG comes up with same "nsncenter" results:
https://www.fedlog.info/
Just gotta know where to search for stuff like this. No big state secrets here, but few know about these sites that are readily accessible.
John
Post by: tango44 on April 09, 2018, 05:50:19 PM
Post by: jalind on April 09, 2018, 07:29:39 PM
So getting back to the swisstool in question, Why does the black oxide comes with so much stains on it?I've no doubt the circles around the rivets are tooling marks from the rivets being peened, which is done by machine and obviously occurs after the individual parts are blacked out. Regarding "stains" in the black oxide, I wouldn't call them "stains" without knowing root cause. One would have to know the exact processes by which the tool is being treated for that coating, including the exact surface preparation being done beforehand. There's more than one way to skin a cat and there's more than one way to "black oxide" ferrous materials. Two general processes for stainless: hot black oxide and room temperature blackening. Post-treatment may include impregnation with oil or wax to maximize corrosion resistance, but it's not required.
Find the exact processes used and their sequence, and that should lead you to the answer after you peel back the effects of each. An inquiry with Victorinox about it would be appropriate. Edit: Some black oxide methods do not create a uniform black finish and it's not a defect. It's inherent to the method, its processes, how they're used, and the visual results afterward that are inconsequential to corrosion resistance. Until one has the exact processes used including all the controls (time, temperature, solution strengths, etc.) and the exact sequence including any waiting times between them, it would be sheer speculation to guess at what you're seeing.
I didn't realize your blacked out SwissTool was the question here as the OP was about a mythical US Gov't SwissTool for the US Armed Forces that doesn't exist.
John
Post by: twiliter on April 09, 2018, 08:02:49 PM
Similar searches using the SwissTool's alleged NSN:
https://www.iso-group.com....aspx?ss=1095-01-670-1865 (https://www.iso-group.com/Public/Search_Results.aspx?ss=1095-01-670-1865)
https://www.nsncenter.com...Search?q=1095-01-670-1865 (https://www.nsncenter.com/NSNSearch?q=1095-01-670-1865)
Doesn't exist in either database.
Edit: the latter "nsncenter" are results using the Web FLIS (Federal Logistics Information Service) which accesses DLA and FLIS: https://www.webflis.info/Home/WebFLISQuoteThe WebFLIS service from the Federal Logistics Information Service (FLIS) of the Defense Logistics Agency (DLA) is an online search system for several public segments of the USA Federal Logistics Database for codified supplies that are represented by a permanent National Stock Number (NSN).
FEDLOG comes up with same "nsncenter" results:
https://www.fedlog.info/
Just gotta know where to search for stuff like this. No big state secrets here, but few know about these sites that are readily accessible.
John
Good info John, thanks.
But how to weed out the actually procured and issued ones from the rest? :ahhh
Post by: tango44 on April 09, 2018, 08:37:56 PM
Norway????
(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh45/Multitooldotorg/Victorinox/SwissTool%20Comparison/Australian%20Army%20SwissTool/Number.jpg)
Post by: jalind on April 09, 2018, 09:00:08 PM
https://www.iso-group.com/NSN/5110-25-147-5018
Norway? ???
(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh45/Multitooldotorg/Victorinox/SwissTool%20Comparison/Australian%20Army%20SwissTool/Number.jpg)
NSNs are used throughout NATO and they have a country code. NSN = NATO Stock Number. The system was created to unify NATO supply and logistics with a common stock number system. The first four digits (which can be broken down in two parts) are supposed to be the commodity encompassing similar or like items. That's become difficult over the years to keep completely organized (note the 1095 on the mythical one versus 5110 on this one). The fifth and sixth digits are the Country Code. "00-10" is the USA although only "00" and "01" have been used thus far. NATO Standard Items (not from any specific country) are "11" and that's rather rare. Canada is "20" and "21", and I had to look up "25". It is, indeed, Norway. The other most immediate clue that it's not USA without even getting to the NSN Country Code is the "broad arrow" in front of the NSN. The USA does not use that marking. Period (or Stop,or End Stop, take your pick). The UK and some others do, particularly in Europe and the Commonwealth of Nations (formerly called the British Commonwealth). Additional countries such as Japan and Australia, which are not part of NATO, also use the NSN system.
It appears you have a genuine Norwegian SwissTool, unless someone forged its markings.
Edit: IIRC, Australia has procured some SwissTools for their military; NSN marking if it has one, will have a "66" Country Code. The UK is "99".
Edit 2: You won't find it in FEDLOG or FLIS with anything more than a noun nomenclature because it's specific to Norway.
John
Post by: tango44 on April 09, 2018, 09:13:28 PM
Post by: Fuzzbucket on April 09, 2018, 09:20:47 PM
https://www.iso-group.com/NSN/5110-25-147-5018
Norway? ???
(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh45/Multitooldotorg/Victorinox/SwissTool%20Comparison/Australian%20Army%20SwissTool/Number.jpg)
NSNs are used throughout NATO and they have a country code. NSN = NATO Stock Number. The system was created to unify supply with a common stock number system. The first four digits (which can be broken down in two parts) are supposed to be the commodity encompassing similar or like items. That's become difficult over the years to keep completely organized (note the 1095 on the mythical one versus 5110 on this one). The fifth and sixth digits are the Country Code. "00-10" is the USA although only "00" and "01" have been used thus far. NATO Standard Items (not from any specific country) are "11" and that's rather rare. Canada is "20" and "21", and I had to look up "25". It is, indeed, Norway. The other most immediate clue that it's not USA without even getting to the NSN Country Code is the "broad arrow" in front of the NSN. The USA does not use that marking. Period (or Stop,or End Stop, take your pick). The UK and some others do, particularly in Europe and the Commonwealth of Nations (formerly called the British Commonwealth). Additional countries such as Japan and Australia, which are not part of NATO, also use the system.
It appears you have a genuine Norwegian SwissTool, unless someone forged its markings.
Edit: IIRC, Australia has procured some SwissTools for their military; NSN marking if it has one, will have a "66" Country Code. The UK is "99".
Edit 2: You won't find it in FEDLOG or FLIS with anything more than a noun nomenclature because it's specific to Norway.
John
It looks like an Aussie one to me - it's got a broad arrow on it.
Edit: sorry Jalind I didn't read your post properly! :salute:
Post by: jalind on April 09, 2018, 09:38:21 PM
https://www.iso-group.com/NSN/5110-25-147-5018
Norway? ???
(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh45/Multitooldotorg/Victorinox/SwissTool%20Comparison/Australian%20Army%20SwissTool/Number.jpg)
NSNs are used throughout NATO and they have a country code. NSN = NATO Stock Number. The system was created to unify supply with a common stock number system. The first four digits (which can be broken down in two parts) are supposed to be the commodity encompassing similar or like items. That's become difficult over the years to keep completely organized (note the 1095 on the mythical one versus 5110 on this one). The fifth and sixth digits are the Country Code. "00-10" is the USA although only "00" and "01" have been used thus far. NATO Standard Items (not from any specific country) are "11" and that's rather rare. Canada is "20" and "21", and I had to look up "25". It is, indeed, Norway. The other most immediate clue that it's not USA without even getting to the NSN Country Code is the "broad arrow" in front of the NSN. The USA does not use that marking. Period (or Stop,or End Stop, take your pick). The UK and some others do, particularly in Europe and the Commonwealth of Nations (formerly called the British Commonwealth). Additional countries such as Japan and Australia, which are not part of NATO, also use the system.
It appears you have a genuine Norwegian SwissTool, unless someone forged its markings.
Edit: IIRC, Australia has procured some SwissTools for their military; NSN marking if it has one, will have a "66" Country Code. The UK is "99".
Edit 2: You won't find it in FEDLOG or FLIS with anything more than a noun nomenclature because it's specific to Norway.
John
It looks like an Aussie one to me - it's got a broad arrow on it.
Nope, it's definitely Norwegian in origin. If it were Aussie in origin it would have a "66" Country Code. Here's a publicly available explanation of NSNs including a list of the 5th and 6th digit country codes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Stock_Number
That's not to say Australia didn't get some via their Norse friends, either from them or through them. I am extremely curious how the Australian military, if this one has a true provenance from Australia's military, ends up with Norwegian NSN multi-tools. That would, indeed, be a convoluted procurement. A Norwegian surplus sale?
John
Post by: Fuzzbucket on April 09, 2018, 09:39:22 PM
Post by: Fuzzbucket on April 09, 2018, 09:43:29 PM
https://www.iso-group.com/NSN/5110-25-147-5018
Norway? ???
(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh45/Multitooldotorg/Victorinox/SwissTool%20Comparison/Australian%20Army%20SwissTool/Number.jpg)
NSNs are used throughout NATO and they have a country code. NSN = NATO Stock Number. The system was created to unify supply with a common stock number system. The first four digits (which can be broken down in two parts) are supposed to be the commodity encompassing similar or like items. That's become difficult over the years to keep completely organized (note the 1095 on the mythical one versus 5110 on this one). The fifth and sixth digits are the Country Code. "00-10" is the USA although only "00" and "01" have been used thus far. NATO Standard Items (not from any specific country) are "11" and that's rather rare. Canada is "20" and "21", and I had to look up "25". It is, indeed, Norway. The other most immediate clue that it's not USA without even getting to the NSN Country Code is the "broad arrow" in front of the NSN. The USA does not use that marking. Period (or Stop,or End Stop, take your pick). The UK and some others do, particularly in Europe and the Commonwealth of Nations (formerly called the British Commonwealth). Additional countries such as Japan and Australia, which are not part of NATO, also use the system.
It appears you have a genuine Norwegian SwissTool, unless someone forged its markings.
Edit: IIRC, Australia has procured some SwissTools for their military; NSN marking if it has one, will have a "66" Country Code. The UK is "99".
Edit 2: You won't find it in FEDLOG or FLIS with anything more than a noun nomenclature because it's specific to Norway.
John
It looks like an Aussie one to me - it's got a broad arrow on it.
Nope, it's definitely Norwegian in origin. If it were Aussie in origin it would have a "66" Country Code. Here's a publicly available explanation of NSNs including a list of the 5th and 6th digit country codes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Stock_Number
That's not to say Australia didn't get some via their Norse friends, either from them or through them. I am extremely curious how the Australian military, if this one has a true provenance from Australia's military, ends up with Norwegian NSN multi-tools. That would, indeed, be a convoluted procurement. A Norwegian surplus sale?
John
No, you're quite right Jalind, I didn't read your post properly. :facepalm: I didn't realise that Norway used the broad arra too... I thought that was just Commonwealth.
Post by: tango44 on April 09, 2018, 09:45:13 PM
That's a great Swisstool Tango - once you start using it and it gets a bit beat-up, it's going to look beautiful! Black oxide tools are tools that need to be used... in my opinion anyway... :whistle:
Sorry, just to make clear, that is not my swisstool, that is a pic that I found on the internet to use it as as example.
Mine does not have any markings at all, just the Victorinox normal logos.
Will snap a few pics of mine and will post tomorrow.
Thank you.
Post by: jalind on April 09, 2018, 09:57:20 PM
https://www.iso-group.com/NSN/5110-25-147-5018
Norway? ???
(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh45/Multitooldotorg/Victorinox/SwissTool%20Comparison/Australian%20Army%20SwissTool/Number.jpg)
NSNs are used throughout NATO and they have a country code. NSN = NATO Stock Number. The system was created to unify supply with a common stock number system. The first four digits (which can be broken down in two parts) are supposed to be the commodity encompassing similar or like items. That's become difficult over the years to keep completely organized (note the 1095 on the mythical one versus 5110 on this one). The fifth and sixth digits are the Country Code. "00-10" is the USA although only "00" and "01" have been used thus far. NATO Standard Items (not from any specific country) are "11" and that's rather rare. Canada is "20" and "21", and I had to look up "25". It is, indeed, Norway. The other most immediate clue that it's not USA without even getting to the NSN Country Code is the "broad arrow" in front of the NSN. The USA does not use that marking. Period (or Stop,or End Stop, take your pick). The UK and some others do, particularly in Europe and the Commonwealth of Nations (formerly called the British Commonwealth). Additional countries such as Japan and Australia, which are not part of NATO, also use the system.
It appears you have a genuine Norwegian SwissTool, unless someone forged its markings.
Edit: IIRC, Australia has procured some SwissTools for their military; NSN marking if it has one, will have a "66" Country Code. The UK is "99".
Edit 2: You won't find it in FEDLOG or FLIS with anything more than a noun nomenclature because it's specific to Norway.
John
It looks like an Aussie one to me - it's got a broad arrow on it.
Nope, it's definitely Norwegian in origin. If it were Aussie in origin it would have a "66" Country Code. Here's a publicly available explanation of NSNs including a list of the 5th and 6th digit country codes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Stock_Number
That's not to say Australia didn't get some via their Norse friends, either from them or through them. I am extremely curious how the Australian military, if this one has a true provenance from Australia's military, ends up with Norwegian NSN multi-tools. That would, indeed, be a convoluted procurement. A Norwegian surplus sale?
John
No, you're quite right Jalind, I didn't read your post properly. :facepalm: I didn't realise that Norway used the broad arra too... I thought that was just Commonwealth.
It is English in origin as a mark of The Crown showing that it's property of The Crown purchased with the Crown's or monarch's money. Dates back to 15th or 16th Century. I've personally seen it most on British military equipment, as they are the Commonwealth guys I rubbed shoulders with most often in NATO along with the Canadians. I don't believe Canada uses it.They mark everything with maple leaves ;) Germany uses its Adler (eagle).
John
Post by: jalind on April 09, 2018, 10:28:08 PM
https://www.iso-group.com/NSN/5110-25-147-5018
Norway? ???
(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh45/Multitooldotorg/Victorinox/SwissTool%20Comparison/Australian%20Army%20SwissTool/Number.jpg)
NSNs are used throughout NATO and they have a country code. NSN = NATO Stock Number. The system was created to unify supply with a common stock number system. The first four digits (which can be broken down in two parts) are supposed to be the commodity encompassing similar or like items. That's become difficult over the years to keep completely organized (note the 1095 on the mythical one versus 5110 on this one). The fifth and sixth digits are the Country Code. "00-10" is the USA although only "00" and "01" have been used thus far. NATO Standard Items (not from any specific country) are "11" and that's rather rare. Canada is "20" and "21", and I had to look up "25". It is, indeed, Norway. The other most immediate clue that it's not USA without even getting to the NSN Country Code is the "broad arrow" in front of the NSN. The USA does not use that marking. Period (or Stop,or End Stop, take your pick). The UK and some others do, particularly in Europe and the Commonwealth of Nations (formerly called the British Commonwealth). Additional countries such as Japan and Australia, which are not part of NATO, also use the system.
It appears you have a genuine Norwegian SwissTool, unless someone forged its markings.
Edit: IIRC, Australia has procured some SwissTools for their military; NSN marking if it has one, will have a "66" Country Code. The UK is "99".
Edit 2: You won't find it in FEDLOG or FLIS with anything more than a noun nomenclature because it's specific to Norway.
John
It looks like an Aussie one to me - it's got a broad arrow on it.
Nope, it's definitely Norwegian in origin. If it were Aussie in origin it would have a "66" Country Code. Here's a publicly available explanation of NSNs including a list of the 5th and 6th digit country codes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Stock_Number
That's not to say Australia didn't get some via their Norse friends, either from them or through them. I am extremely curious how the Australian military, if this one has a true provenance from Australia's military, ends up with Norwegian NSN multi-tools. That would, indeed, be a convoluted procurement. A Norwegian surplus sale?
John
No, you're quite right Jalind, I didn't read your post properly. :facepalm: I didn't realise that Norway used the broad arra too... I thought that was just Commonwealth.
Stranger things have happened . . . was jesting a bit about the surplus sale . . . but could have been something along those lines, or a "group buy" from several countries to leverage on quantity. Could also be some Aussie dude rubs shoulders with some Norse guy in some joint operation and they swap tools. Ends up being sold off and the buyer concludes it's Aussie military without getting the real provenance. Could also be Norwegian, someone sees the broad arrow and concludes it came from Down Under not knowing NSN Country Codes. Its procurement originated from Norway . . . where it went after that would require the SwissTool to be able to play back its travelogue.
A German lieutenant offered me his 108mm GAK in trade for my Woodsman SAK some time during 1979 or 1980; IIRC during a REFORGER. Almost took him up on it but it didn't have the tools mine did. I've got one now and they're quite well made. Told him the SAK was borrowed so as not to seem unfriendly and then asked him to explain some things about his. Tons of US hardware ends up in other countries as part of US Gov't Foreign Military Sales (FMS) and some other defense assistance programs. Some things are on "loan" and must be eventually returned, including small arms (reasons for that should be obvious). We're still getting M1 Garands back from a number of countries.
John
Post by: jaya_man on April 26, 2018, 03:06:51 AM
When friends ask me if these USCUK and MT are officially issued to the US armed forces, I always answer NO... I just explained that the NSN simply means that it somehow meets the organizations standards and is only available for private purchase by personnel... :cheers:
Post by: jalind on April 26, 2018, 04:23:48 AM
Awesome info John... Defintely an eye opener...
When friends ask me if these USCUK and MT are officially issued to the US armed forces, I always answer NO... I just explained that the NSN simply means that it somehow meets the organizations standards and is only available for private purchase by personnel... :cheers:
Not even possible for that, not through the US Gov't as it isn't in their inventory. It would have to be a personal equipment issue or uniform item already in inventory and available through the "Clothing Sales Store" where you can buy insignia and other personal uniform and equipment items, such as a helmet, canteen or entrenching tool, or rank insignia. Things like the entrenching tool, helmet and canteen are unit property, to be returned when you leave the unit. If you lose or damage one from your own negligence, you can go there to replace it out of your own pocket. That's much easier than the alternative of having the unit issue a replacement and the government taking the cost of replacing it out of your paycheck which involves paperwork nobody likes to deal with. The company First Sergeant and Supply Sergeant that works for him won't be thanking you much for the extra pile of paper on their desks, and they have ways of expressing their displeasure one does not forget. The kicker here is that it's something already in the US Government inventory which these are not.
You could buy one straight from the guy in Pennsylvania if he is willing or has any to sell, but he's a one-man show operating out of his home. I don't think he's prepared to deal with retail sales like that, nor does he want to, nor does he have any stock on hand to sell. They can call the phone number and ask but I don't think it will result in a sale. ;) Think of all the problems you'd have running a retail business by yourself out of a room in your house, trying to answer calls, take orders and fulfill them . . . on top of your normal job (aka Day Job). He doesn't have an Internet storefront . . . the first thing one needs to operate something like that . . . or use Amazon as a seller or ePrey . . . and he doesn't have those either.
If he had a government contract, he could get about 80-90% of the money up front, order and drop ship the tools in bulk from Victorinox and then get paid the rest when the US Government receives it. If the quantity is enormous, such as 100k, it would be done in increments, of maybe 5k at a time. The US Government recognizes a company cannot always front all the costs until the contract is fulfilled, so they'll front what is estimated to be the costs, withholding the estimated profit, and then pay that when the contract, or that portion of the contract is completely filled. I've been on the government side of that and they don't get the remaining money until all the terms and conditions are signed off by the government's representative on the contract as having been fully met. I've no doubt this is how the Sig Sauer 9mm pistol, the M17 with a much smaller quantity of the M18 (variants of the P320) are being procured to replace the 9mm Beretta M9 (variant of the 92FS). Sig Sauer will get paid in quantity increments. It will take at least five years to replace them all, if not longer. It took over seven years to replace all the M1911A1 with the M9. If a government agency that is authorized (and budgeted by Congress) to procure some of its own equipment, such as Homeland Security, the US Border Patrol, or perhaps the FBI wanted a thousand of these knives or SwissTools, they could go to DLA (Defense Logistics Agency), tell them they want a thousand and let DLA handle the contract for it. The money for it is moved around within the government from one "bucket" to another. An individual soldier cannot do that.
Maybe more than you wanted to know, but that is in very broad terms, how stuff like that works with the US Government.
John
Post by: tango44 on March 30, 2020, 08:04:31 PM