Post by: BigMatt on January 28, 2018, 07:37:28 PM
I might be changing camps soon. I have a long history with LM tools and a lot of sentiment for them but I need stuff that works and makes my life and work as easy as possible. In my opinion update to the Surge was the last highlight, since then my love for LM is fading with every year. Instead of improving and developing existing tools they go in to keyrings and knives and other snowboard faff. And now this: replecable cutters on the Wave/Charge like that!!?? How little metal is left in there? I'm so happy I have invested in a Recharge years ago, now I know it will be the best LM option for another 10 years...
For me Leatherman is currently running 70% on reputation and their warranty policy. But from usability point of view they are no longer the best on the market, they have been mached by SOG, Swisstool and (I can't belive I'm saying this) Gerber. Have you seen SOG poweraccess deluxe or powerpint or powerplay? Or the update to Gerber suspension! All blades available from outside, bit holders, long screwdrivers, real steinless steel, pouches with accessories....
But it's more important to release £200 metal bracelet, £500 watch or reheat oldest tool for £300 instead of innowating and leading the industry.
What do you think, are you looking around to change your main mt? Just trying to share my dissapointment...
Post by: Raoul Octav on January 28, 2018, 07:53:33 PM
The Tread is very cool, i own one, usable for some. The manufacturing process is really expensive. The TEMPO is waaaaay to expensive, they could have partnered with Timex/Casio .
The new additions , replaceable wire cutters, should have been implemented years ago, indeed.
The multitool market is somewhat oversaturated with products, and they need to come with something new
My guess is that they will come with something new, fresh like a multitool that transforms (imagine a handel that comes out from your multitool, real easy, and you have a pocket knife)
Post by: EZrider on January 28, 2018, 07:56:10 PM
If LM were to vanish tomorrow I have enough of their tools to last a lifetime, and my son’s, without having to resort to Power this or Suspension that.
If you like a tool by Gerber or such buy it, you don’t have forsake something that works because you perceive something else is better.
Post by: Wspeed on January 28, 2018, 07:59:42 PM
But you are right that leatherman should be more concentrating
On there multitool development rather
than coming out with a overpriced bracelet :rofl:
Post by: kaput on January 28, 2018, 08:16:24 PM
People get wrapped up with innovation sometimes too much when it comes to these tools. These aren't iPhone and need the latest and greatest flux capacitor and so on.
When it comes to tools, there is tried and true. And Leathermans are tried and true. :salute:
Post by: Lynn LeFey on January 28, 2018, 08:19:26 PM
they have been mached by SOG...
:rofl:
Wait... are you serious?
How many UTTER failures have we seen from SOG in the last... what? FIVE years? You're betting on the new line of stuff to not suck, when it is, at this moment, vaporware. And even once it's out in the field, SOG has failed from design to manufacture.
Now, I am completely HOPING for a hit with the Powerpint. It's a niche I feel has opportunity, and the design looks promising.
But saying SOG has beat Leatherman is... optimistic at best.
Post by: SteveC on January 28, 2018, 08:23:58 PM
Absoloutley not.
I agree :tu:
Seems to be a lot of ranting and raving and Leatherman bashing going on these days. If you aren't happy then maybe you should move on. As far as the replaceable cutters go people have been asking for that for years now. Leatherman comes through and now people are bitching about them not being strong enough before they have even been tried out.
Like I said in the other thread I'm sure LM tested out the new plier head before putting them into production.
The Tread has been out for a few years now so why the ranting about it now ?
Also don't know what you mean by real Stainless steel :think: Leatherman has always used real Stainless steel.
Post by: Lynn LeFey on January 28, 2018, 08:35:39 PM
I'm not sure if Leatherman's reputation for corrosion is deserved. I've had a number of rusty Leatherman tools, but never ones I got new, and all of them have been early 90s. That's a lot of time for mistreatment. Again, I DO think this could be mitigated by higher polish though. Maybe THAT is what was meant by 'real stainless'?
Post by: BigMatt on January 28, 2018, 08:37:25 PM
Regarding the new pliers, they could have just dropped the rebar plier in, all it's needed is 1mm off the plier head or a modification to the scissors. What this "update" means is that they reviewed this model, changed one thing (half ar**d for me) and it will stay like that for another 7 years. So the chance to improve their best tool is wasted.
And yes, I'm really impressed with SOG, they are trying very hard, innowating and inventing, sooner or later their tools will be better/more functional than Leathermans, and it will break my heart.
Leatherman described it's steel as "An improved, high-carbon (HC) form of 420 stainless steel that works well with high production tooling. 420HC's strength is optimised in Leatherman multi-tools by heat treatment." Is there such thing as "high carbon steinless steel"? Regardless, in my experience it does not behave as steinless steel, they shoud add a can of WD40 with every tool.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Leatherman stay at the top and get my tools from them for the rest of my life. But the way they are currently going they might end up like Blackberry...
Post by: kaput on January 28, 2018, 08:54:52 PM
Or, do you need a belt buckle multitool?
Post by: BigMatt on January 28, 2018, 09:02:12 PM
Answer me this. We'll take another brand for instance, same idea, but for some reason the heat is on Leatherman... When was the last time Victorinox came out with a plier based multitool? Do they need to reinvent the wheel (tool)? Or have they nailed it in form and function?
Or, do you need a belt buckle multitool?
That is a main reason I'm not in to swisstool. It was good "back in the day" and the only pssible competition to LM. But now they are in the same boat as LM regarding tools, luckily for Victorinox they are living off their pocket knives which they are constantly developing.
Answering your question, at the moment I would take SOG or Gerber over swisstool purely for the usability and convenience and new ideas. If I was looking for my first multitool I would be 50/50 between SOG, Leatherman and new Gerber...
And commenting on your sarcasm, I think belt buckle tool is much better idea than Thruster, Rail or Juice CS3.
Post by: kaput on January 28, 2018, 09:27:23 PM
I still would consider the swisstools as a top tier tool. If they worked great when they came out, do they not work great now? Also they have the high polish mentioned about corrosion resistance. SOG and Gerber tumble and stone washes not so much.Answer me this. We'll take another brand for instance, same idea, but for some reason the heat is on Leatherman... When was the last time Victorinox came out with a plier based multitool? Do they need to reinvent the wheel (tool)? Or have they nailed it in form and function?
Or, do you need a belt buckle multitool?
That is a main reason I'm not in to swisstool. It was good "back in the day" and the only pssible competition to LM. But now they are in the same boat as LM regarding tools, luckily for Victorinox they are living off their pocket knives which they are constantly developing.
Answering your question, at the moment I would take SOG or Gerber over swisstool purely for the usability and convenience and new ideas. If I was looking for my first multitool I would be 50/50 between SOG, Leatherman and new Gerber...
And commenting on your sarcasm, I think belt buckle tool is much better idea than Thruster, Rail or Juice CS3.
The good thing about these various companies is the various designs and implementation. Meaning that there should be something for everyone. Although most of us could find a tweak or two to almost any tool/manufacturer out there.
I also understand people wanting something new from Leatherman, I think it's in part because they know the quality and value the tool offers the working person. BUT, that does not mean that the tools they have in there arsenal are not worthy and able to accomplish a plethora of tasks.
My comment about the belt buckle was meant to point the fact if you're looking for something specialized and unique, extremely handy for certain situations, but not all. Or a tried and true design. I myself understand that a multitool in theory is a Jack of all trades master of none.
Post by: Wspeed on January 28, 2018, 09:44:48 PM
Like mechanics, electricians, carpentry, engineering, etc :gimme:
I don't want a bottle opener or a fish hook remover for instance :ahhh
We need more proper tooling :tu:
Post by: in_sympathy on January 28, 2018, 10:12:13 PM
Post by: WWW on January 28, 2018, 10:19:01 PM
What they need to start producing is multitools for selected trades :think:Amen to that, more specific tools would be awesome!
Like mechanics, electricians, carpentry, engineering, etc :gimme:
I don't want a bottle opener or a fish hook remover for instance :ahhh
We need more proper tooling :tu:
Anyways, I'm saving for a Spirit, if it meet/exceed my expectations I may stay neutral on the Swiss side for a while...
Post by: SteveC on January 28, 2018, 10:26:28 PM
They both have there pluses and minuses .
Post by: zoidberg on January 28, 2018, 10:45:23 PM
Having just completed the 30 day Spirit challenge for me it has nothing on the Rebar.
They both have there pluses and minuses .
Haven't read the challenge thread yet, which one did you get?
Post by: Nix on January 28, 2018, 10:49:46 PM
Post by: SteveC on January 28, 2018, 10:50:48 PM
Having just completed the 30 day Spirit challenge for me it has nothing on the Rebar.
They both have there pluses and minuses .
Haven't read the challenge thread yet, which one did you get?
The BO S model
I got it used , the pliers have a bit of play in them but I like it overall.
(https://i.imgur.com/9PSbNceh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nWj27BNh.jpg)
Post by: David Bowen on January 28, 2018, 11:38:29 PM
SOG is doing an amazing job in terms of innovation. For so long they rested on their laurels and stayed with the same models. They have had a massive shift in recent years trying to breathe life into the tool market. I applaud their efforts with the new tools coming out, they are trying hard to create new exciting designs and get their QC under control. Tools like the Baton series and the Sync show that there are still some cool ideas out there without relying on the same design model. In the end though, the Power Access, Power Pint etc are nothing more than SOG branded Swiss Tools. Anything that strays from the standard model I highly praise.
Deep down I feel most of what's on the market are excellent tools and some are to the point of perfection. They could stop innovating now and the tool lovers of this world would be completely satisfied. Personally I love the Wave/Charge design is perfect and I don't see them changing it much more. I don't think adding cutters means they can milk us and charge extra for them but it was a design change that was overdue. The current model is a tired and worn out model that's been done to death, but how many other ways can you design a set of pocket pliers.
We continue to demand more out of Leatherman, SOG, Gerber, etc because we know there are still good ideas out there and the next big thing is on the horizon.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Post by: Outback in Idaho on January 28, 2018, 11:55:44 PM
Kept hoping for a Charge sized Mini-Surge to come out.
Innovation isn't Leatherman's strong point in the past couple of years. I do regret giving the Tread away as the various hex bits did work great on the TerraTrike Rover. If there was a Leatherman Tread for $100 I might get one. At their current price, NFW. And a watch had to take up the stress when the bracelet is used as a tool. Was NOT impressed with the can opener on the Tread as the locking-clasp pin was hollow and that can the can opener & locking mechanism.
With the locking mechanism, basically a 1/4" socket adapter with only one ball bearing spring to keep it close, one would have to bend the locking-clasp back in a lot to keep the bracelet locked. Catch a ball, melon, grapefruit, or have some sort of hand jarring going on and the Treat would open up. Most annoying. Maybe if it had two socket locks it would stay in the locked position better.
Leatherman is still a good product with a decent warranty.
Post by: mcb on January 29, 2018, 12:02:13 AM
I came to Leatherman from Gerber. My first multi-tool was a mid 90's Gerber Multi-pliers (Mr Pinchy) it lived in my commuter pack for working on my commuter bike while in grad school. I carried a Gerber Crucial in my pocket and a Gerber Clutch on my key ring.
I can still remember the first time I picked up a Skeletool. It had everything my Crucial did in a better package with replaceable screw drive bits. I went out an bought one immediately. The Skeletool is my most carried and most used multi-tool. Short there after a Style CS replace my Clutch and Mr Pinchy got replaced with a Blast, then a MUT and finally settled on a Surge.
I tried SOG, the Reactor was my first try and was junk IMHO flimsy and awkward to use. The only redeeming quality was the pliers mechanical advantage and that did not make up for all the other failings. I would go back to my Crucial before carrying the Reactor. It sits, un-used, in drawer somewhere. I also got a Power Access on the group buy here and its considerably better than the Reactor but it is still not in Leatherman's class IMHO. Again the pliers with their mechanical advantage is very nice but everything else comes in second or worst compared to Leatherman. The Power Access is what I carry when I might loose it to security or TSA.
The replaceable cutters on the Wave/Charge family is big to me. I might actually buy one now. I bough the Surge instead of the wave due to the replace cutter. Of everything I saw at Shot Show nothing in the multi-tool world really jump out at me. The new plus versions of the Wave and Charge were one of the better new things I saw IMHO.
Post by: LoopCutter on January 29, 2018, 01:04:07 AM
I still can not believe the tread is profitable and the first PST Tim L sold was for $175 US.
My tools have been a real bargain.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: ThundahBeagle on January 29, 2018, 01:32:04 AM
Answer me this. We'll take another brand for instance, same idea, but for some reason the heat is on Leatherman... When was the last time Victorinox came out with a plier based multitool? Do they need to reinvent the wheel (tool)? Or have they nailed it in form and function?
Or, do you need a belt buckle multitool?
That is a main reason I'm not in to swisstool. It was good "back in the day" and the only pssible competition to LM. But now they are in the same boat as LM regarding tools, luckily for Victorinox they are living off their pocket knives which they are constantly developing.
Answering your question, at the moment I would take SOG or Gerber over swisstool purely for the usability and convenience and new ideas. If I was looking for my first multitool I would be 50/50 between SOG, Leatherman and new Gerber...
And commenting on your sarcasm, I think belt buckle tool is much better idea than Thruster, Rail or Juice CS3.
Wait, what?! There's a belt buckle tool?
Who's producing that and where do I get one?
Post by: ThundahBeagle on January 29, 2018, 01:41:30 AM
What they need to start producing is multitools for selected trades :think:
Like mechanics, electricians, carpentry, engineering, etc :gimme:
I don't want a bottle opener or a fish hook remover for instance :ahhh
We need more proper tooling :tu:
While I don't knock any tradesman who carries a Leatherman, I don't want my mechanic or electrician half a$$ing it. Those folks should always be working with dedicated tools, with Leatherman as a back-up just to hold a nut while turning a bolt or something.
Big fan of the Vic bottle opener, and a fish hook remover comes in handy for someone who is fishing and camping, etc.
Proper tooling for the trades is best left to proper tools. That being said, I wouldn't mind if Leatherman decided to produce a nice 10 inch linesmans plyers with New England tip and side cutters. Or some other quality dedicated tools like a precision screw driver set
Post by: kaput on January 29, 2018, 01:44:18 AM
Answer me this. We'll take another brand for instance, same idea, but for some reason the heat is on Leatherman... When was the last time Victorinox came out with a plier based multitool? Do they need to reinvent the wheel (tool)? Or have they nailed it in form and function?
Or, do you need a belt buckle multitool?
That is a main reason I'm not in to swisstool. It was good "back in the day" and the only pssible competition to LM. But now they are in the same boat as LM regarding tools, luckily for Victorinox they are living off their pocket knives which they are constantly developing.
Answering your question, at the moment I would take SOG or Gerber over swisstool purely for the usability and convenience and new ideas. If I was looking for my first multitool I would be 50/50 between SOG, Leatherman and new Gerber...
And commenting on your sarcasm, I think belt buckle tool is much better idea than Thruster, Rail or Juice CS3.
Wait, what?! There's a belt buckle tool?
Who's producing that and where do I get one?
SOG sync series. Should be elavailable everywhere :tu:
Post by: David Bowen on January 29, 2018, 01:44:30 AM
They're produced by SOG and they came out last year. They are called the Sync I and HI.Answer me this. We'll take another brand for instance, same idea, but for some reason the heat is on Leatherman... When was the last time Victorinox came out with a plier based multitool? Do they need to reinvent the wheel (tool)? Or have they nailed it in form and function?
Or, do you need a belt buckle multitool?
That is a main reason I'm not in to swisstool. It was good "back in the day" and the only pssible competition to LM. But now they are in the same boat as LM regarding tools, luckily for Victorinox they are living off their pocket knives which they are constantly developing.
Answering your question, at the moment I would take SOG or Gerber over swisstool purely for the usability and convenience and new ideas. If I was looking for my first multitool I would be 50/50 between SOG, Leatherman and new Gerber...
And commenting on your sarcasm, I think belt buckle tool is much better idea than Thruster, Rail or Juice CS3.
Wait, what?! There's a belt buckle tool?
Who's producing that and where do I get one?
https://store.multitool.org/sog/sog-sunc-i-25.html
https://store.multitool.org/sog/sog-sync-ii-27.html
Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk
Post by: zoidberg on January 29, 2018, 02:19:57 AM
Having just completed the 30 day Spirit challenge for me it has nothing on the Rebar.
They both have there pluses and minuses .
Haven't read the challenge thread yet, which one did you get?
The BO S model
I got it used , the pliers have a bit of play in them but I like it overall.
(https://i.imgur.com/9PSbNceh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nWj27BNh.jpg)
What a looker. :tu: :like:
Post by: ironraven on January 29, 2018, 02:33:45 AM
I use Leatherman because I find that their tools feel good in my hand and they work well, with a reasonable price point. Their tools are a higher carbon steel than some might like, but that is personal preference. I've taken rust off my Leatherman because they get used in cars above the snow line during winter- that isn't a failing, it's just a tool that requires attention. So do my Ka-bars and older Hunters and Shrade fixed blades, my electricians' knife, my good hammer, my hatchet and my pistols, not to mention my car. I prefer a carbon steel to many stainless alloys.
Some of their tools I dislike. Intensely. I find their recent offerings to be over specialized, or just phoned in. QC has gone down and prices are going up. Models I don't like I don't buy. I have no obligation to do so.
When the calculus between function, fit, and price stops working for me, I will look for an alternative vendor.
Post by: Lynn LeFey on January 29, 2018, 02:35:43 AM
Models I don't like I don't buy. I have no obligation to do so.
Yup. This.
Post by: ThundahBeagle on January 29, 2018, 03:10:12 AM
Answer me this. We'll take another brand for instance, same idea, but for some reason the heat is on Leatherman... When was the last time Victorinox came out with a plier based multitool? Do they need to reinvent the wheel (tool)? Or have they nailed it in form and function?
Or, do you need a belt buckle multitool?
That is a main reason I'm not in to swisstool. It was good "back in the day" and the only pssible competition to LM. But now they are in the same boat as LM regarding tools, luckily for Victorinox they are living off their pocket knives which they are constantly developing.
Answering your question, at the moment I would take SOG or Gerber over swisstool purely for the usability and convenience and new ideas. If I was looking for my first multitool I would be 50/50 between SOG, Leatherman and new Gerber...
And commenting on your sarcasm, I think belt buckle tool is much better idea than Thruster, Rail or Juice CS3.
Wait, what?! There's a belt buckle tool?
Who's producing that and where do I get one?
SOG sync series. Should be elavailable everywhere :tu:
Thanks Kaput. How very Klingonese.
Post by: ThundahBeagle on January 29, 2018, 03:21:05 AM
Moving on? Maybe to a new Surge or maybe a Signal. I may even get a Wingman: the one I gave to my brother for Christmas seemed pretty good for the money.
Post by: kaput on January 29, 2018, 04:23:14 AM
Post by: SteveC on January 29, 2018, 05:58:53 AM
Having just completed the 30 day Spirit challenge for me it has nothing on the Rebar.
They both have there pluses and minuses .
Haven't read the challenge thread yet, which one did you get?
The BO S model
I got it used , the pliers have a bit of play in them but I like it overall.
(https://i.imgur.com/9PSbNceh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nWj27BNh.jpg)
What a looker. :tu: :like:
:cheers:
Post by: shark_za on January 29, 2018, 06:39:05 AM
On the entire market there are no better Multitools than the Rebar/ST300 or Wave/Surge; depending if you like inside tools or one hand opening.
Choose inside or outside, choose medium or large. All have replaceable cutters now, a state of total dominance has just been achieved.
Boom! Leatherman total perfection.
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 29, 2018, 07:14:01 AM
they have been mached by SOG...
:rofl:
Wait... are you serious?
How many UTTER failures have we seen from SOG in the last... what? FIVE years? You're betting on the new line of stuff to not suck, when it is, at this moment, vaporware. And even once it's out in the field, SOG has failed from design to manufacture.
Now, I am completely HOPING for a hit with the Powerpint. It's a niche I feel has opportunity, and the design looks promising.
But saying SOG has beat Leatherman is... optimistic at best.
I was about to post the exact same thing. SOG is miles behind Leatherman, in my eyes.
Post by: ReamerPunch on January 29, 2018, 07:37:34 AM
Still, the need for innovation does not take away from the proven designs we can enjoy today. I love my Rebar, and am happy with the design. I modded scissors in it, and it's even better. I might even transplant a Wingman package opener in there.
Many wanted the Rebar head in there, and indeed many have proceeded to mod their own upgraded Wave/Charge. It would be nice if it was a production model, readily available, instead of buying a Wave and seeking a donor plierhead.
Even so, there are ways to customize your MT to fit your needs better.
This might help the requests for "no can opener, I never use it", or "I want the S30V blade in a Wave."
Think about it. Syph offers your SAK just like you want it, with superb construction.
Instead of MT manufacturers trying to please the majority with one model, why not offer everyone the option to pick and choose their features in the frame they want.
I want a Micra with Squirt pliers, and no tweezers.
A juice with PE blade, scissors, saw, file.
A Charge with Rebar head, awl, and evil's scissors instead of SE blade.
I agree with the concerns about how the cutters were implemented on the new Waves/Charges. I was expecting the Rebar head. But I won't pout too much, because I already have a Rebar head, and I love it.
Post by: EZrider on January 29, 2018, 08:04:53 AM
This is so funny its actually ridiculous.
On the entire market there are no better Multitools than the Rebar/ST300 or Wave/Surge; depending if you like inside tools or one hand opening.
Choose inside or outside, choose medium or large. All have replaceable cutters now, a state of total dominance has just been achieved.
Boom! Leatherman total perfection.
Exactly this.
:like:
Post by: EZrider on January 29, 2018, 08:06:13 AM
I tend not to like the newer offerings as much as I like the classics, but I just don't see how one asks if Leatherman has forsaken us when they *JUST* released a bunch of tools and variants that many on this very site have been suggesting for years. THAT'S forsaking us?
...and this. :salute:
Post by: kirk13 on January 29, 2018, 09:36:34 AM
Unless it was to the gun range,my EDC Multitool in 2017 was either a Swisstool X or a Spirit,nothing else. The only place Leatherman got a look in was at the gun range,with my P.U.G,which is a modded Wave.
Even my classic LMs didn't get a look in. Just saying.
Post by: tosh on January 29, 2018, 09:40:10 AM
What they need to start producing is multitools for selected trades :think:
Like mechanics, electricians, carpentry, engineering, etc :gimme:
I don't want a bottle opener or a fish hook remover for instance :ahhh
We need more proper tooling :tu:
Exactly :tu:
This has been my argument for years and is exactly the reason why I do not edc out of work.
The MT manufacturers just seem unable to shake off the gadget factor.
I honestly cannot see why in 2018 there is not a single MT out there that has exactly the same power and strength as a normal pair of pliers but has aditional tools within its handles...seriously!! How hard can that be.
Leatherman, after 35yrs in production still do not provide proper blunt nose pliers. Ridiculous!! Having to resort instead to carbide inserts to bolster the strength is an absolute joke!
Incorporating numerous flat drivers in an age where almost everything is either cross head or hex head, all because it's both easier and far cheaper to stamp out flat drivers - lol
The trade specific tool idea would be revolutionary but only if manufacturers actually delivered a proper useable workhorse and not some daft gadget, as would probably be the case!!
It really angers me this, just lazy and greedy, yet holding patents they are not wanting to allow anyone else to step in and deliver.
A joke, a ridiculous overpriced overhyped joke. The constant costcutting, thinner steel, banal and uninspiring tool loadout combined with cheap naff pouches etc etc yet all the while the prices seem to be climbing higher and higher.
Post by: Etherealicer on January 29, 2018, 11:47:42 AM
I honestly cannot see why in 2018 there is not a single MT out there that has exactly the same power and strength as a normal pair of pliers but has aditional tools within its handles...seriously!! How hard can that be.Knipex pliers are expensive without the functionality of an MT. Having the same overall structural strength would make the MT extremely expensive... and heavy or even more expensive.
I can already hear the whining if anyone brought out a top notch MT for 500$ (look at the knife prices, that would not be unrealistic for a titanium uni-body construction with knipex-quality-level pliers-head).
So, back to the original topic:
Have we forsaken LM
With our unwillingness to pay for decent tools? Forcing LM to find new markets.
Post by: Sam Lim on January 29, 2018, 12:03:17 PM
BTW, I am still not understanding the big hoo-ha about the replaceable cutters. I love them and welcome the change. I have cut many nonsense things with it. My cutter chips but never broken a rebar pliers. Those that encounter this, probably you are very lucky or u may not be using it for its intended purpose/capability.
Post by: Aloha on January 29, 2018, 03:16:18 PM
A wonderful point was made about Victorinox and their plier based tools. They certainly are incredibly slow to do anything let alone innovative. If I recall the new plier based tool only had a newer finish? Lets talk about their pocket knives for a sec. The Pioneer X..... Once reason I don't carry a Vic plier based tool is my Wave/Charge is just so dominant. Maybe LM did nearly perfect the MT as we know it????? When they revised the Surge to include replaceable wire cutters and revamp the blade exchanger wow what a nearly perfect tool. Sure they ditched the little driver and some were pissed but there is no perfect tool unless you MOD it yourself.
What are we talking about really? Does LM give a rats behind about innovation? Does LM care about their loyalist? They have to attract new business like any business. We represent a very specific group of MT enthusiast. Most will buy a certain tool and use it till it needs warranty, they loose it, or they retire it. I snickered at the Signal along with others but having had more than my share in hand I applaud LM for that tool. So back to what are we talking about......... Details IMO. We want perfection and want the manufactures to make tools with the perfect array of implements. Thats a tall order.
I'll leave with, I agree LM needs to buckle down on QC. Oh and please include some quality leather sheaths like you used to please.
Post by: Wspeed on January 29, 2018, 03:38:04 PM
If you buy a brand new car you get the option to choose your optional extras
Like what engine, colour, stereo, wheels, brakes, etc
Why can't we do this with multitools
And order what you want in your knife :think:
Post by: ThePeacent on January 29, 2018, 03:46:13 PM
Deep down they all revolve around the same model/design. They all have pliers and they all have handles. Most have butterfly opening with a few exceptions here and there. I feel the current designs like the Wave style and the traditional style (rebar) are perfect. How much more can they change or improve said models. I've stated before that I feel Leatherman peaked in the mid 2ks.
SOG is doing an amazing job in terms of innovation. For so long they rested on their laurels and stayed with the same models. They have had a massive shift in recent years trying to breathe life into the tool market. I applaud their efforts with the new tools coming out, they are trying hard to create new exciting designs and get their QC under control. Tools like the Baton series and the Sync show that there are still some cool ideas out there without relying on the same design model. In the end though, the Power Access, Power Pint etc are nothing more than SOG branded Swiss Tools. Anything that strays from the standard model I highly praise.
Deep down I feel most of what's on the market are excellent tools and some are to the point of perfection. They could stop innovating now and the tool lovers of this world would be completely satisfied. Personally I love the Wave/Charge design is perfect and I don't see them changing it much more. I don't think adding cutters means they can milk us and charge extra for them but it was a design change that was overdue. The current model is a tired and worn out model that's been done to death, but how many other ways can you design a set of pocket pliers.
We continue to demand more out of Leatherman, SOG, Gerber, etc because we know there are still good ideas out there and the next big thing is on the horizon.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
these are exactly all the thoughts I wanted to post, you did it first. We think alike in this regard, 100%!!! :cheers:
Post by: Don Pablo on January 29, 2018, 04:24:18 PM
What I think should be done is, let the customer choose what they want in the knifeAnd how often are you constrained to what the dealer has in stock? :ahhh
If you buy a brand new car you get the option to choose your optional extras
Like what engine, colour, stereo, wheels, brakes, etc
Why can't we do this with multitools
And order what you want in your knife :think:
Post by: AlephZero on January 29, 2018, 04:43:43 PM
Post by: tosh on January 29, 2018, 04:54:58 PM
We just need a higher spec, better tool steel for the plier head.
Consider dumping the cap lifter and can opener or some of the silly flat bits!!
Replaceable saw blade is spot on. Especially if it's using the standard Bosch fitting.
Good sharp double sided file
A full length diamond rod that could also be unscrewed to sharpen the blades
A box cutter with standard size stanley blade fitting
Standard 1/4" bit holder
Such a tool would in my view be indespensible to most trades especially if LM ever got round to adding proper blunt nosed pliers made from proper tool steel.
So in essence, it isn't that far fetched everything already exists out there it just needs a redesign to implement.
I love MT's but I am totally pig sick of the same damn tool load out, absolutely sick of it.
Post by: tosh on January 29, 2018, 05:05:58 PM
What I think should be done is, let the customer choose what they want in the knife
If you buy a brand new car you get the option to choose your optional extras
Like what engine, colour, stereo, wheels, brakes, etc
Why can't we do this with multitools
And order what you want in your knife :think:
I think a way around this idea is for LM or any manufacturer to have software on their website where you are invited to design and submit. If a certain design was replicated constantly then serious thought should be given to putting it into production.
It wouldn't be so hard, I remember ikea did just that. You entered the size of your room, marked out the windows/doors and began designing.
It would be both fun and give the manufactures a clear idea as to what customers were looking for.
Post by: Wspeed on January 29, 2018, 05:18:04 PM
What I think should be done is, let the customer choose what they want in the knifeAnd how often are you constrained to what the dealer has in stock? :ahhh
If you buy a brand new car you get the option to choose your optional extras
Like what engine, colour, stereo, wheels, brakes, etc
Why can't we do this with multitools
And order what you want in your knife :think:
Quote from: AlephZero link=topic=75648.msg1625574#msg1625574
date=1517240623
date=1517240623
Customization costs a smurfload of $$$, how many "normal" customers (ie. not us ;)) are prepared to pay the extra? :pok:
I get what you both say :tu:
But if there is the option to have the multitool as is ?
or for a bit more money I can have the knife
I want then that's worth the wait and extra money in my eyes
And we wouldn't be having to mod our multitool and still have our warranty :think:
Post by: Etherealicer on January 29, 2018, 05:27:25 PM
I don't think the design needs change. The wave and surge are perfect in my mind. As is the ST300.How much are you willing to pay for that? 100$? 500$? 1000$?
We just need a higher spec, better tool steel for the plier head.
Consider dumping the cap lifter and can opener or some of the silly flat bits!!
Replaceable saw blade is spot on. Especially if it's using the standard Bosch fitting.
Good sharp double sided file
A full length diamond rod that could also be unscrewed to sharpen the blades
A box cutter with standard size stanley blade fitting
Standard 1/4" bit holder
Such a tool would in my view be indespensible to most trades especially if LM ever got round to adding proper blunt nosed pliers made from proper tool steel.
So in essence, it isn't that far fetched everything already exists out there it just needs a redesign to implement.
I love MT's but I am totally pig sick of the same damn tool load out, absolutely sick of it.
In most trades (at least here) use powertools...
On a construction side they would have
- Drill with bit adapter
- Reciprocating saw, circular saw
- Nail gun
Additionally, most carry
- Flat screwdriver (PB100 is the most popular MT in Switzerland, used for prying, scraping and as lever)
- Hammer
- Box cutter
- Pliers
- Other tools depending on their job
All the tools on a MT are tiny, I mean if you need to cut 10 2x4 you are way faster getting a larger saw. Also, you will get a much cleaner cut with circular saw. You need to cut insulation, get your big ass insulation saw for that.
IMO, MTs are for people who sometimes need tools, but can't justify the weight of a toolbox (e.g. because they walk around too much, or they don't need the tools often enough).
Post by: Etherealicer on January 29, 2018, 05:32:43 PM
Its not going to be "a bit more". With customization, the automation is out of the window...What I think should be done is, let the customer choose what they want in the knifeAnd how often are you constrained to what the dealer has in stock? :ahhh
If you buy a brand new car you get the option to choose your optional extras
Like what engine, colour, stereo, wheels, brakes, etc
Why can't we do this with multitools
And order what you want in your knife :think:Quote from: AlephZero link=topic=75648.msg1625574#msg1625574
date=1517240623
Customization costs a smurfload of $$$, how many "normal" customers (ie. not us ;)) are prepared to pay the extra? :pok:
I get what you both say :tu:
But if there is the option to have the multitool as is ?
or for a bit more money I can have the knife
I want then that's worth the wait and extra money in my eyes
And we wouldn't be having to mod our multitool and still have our warranty :think:
Post by: dks on January 29, 2018, 05:36:35 PM
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,48514.0.html
Post by: tosh on January 29, 2018, 05:59:37 PM
I don't think the design needs change. The wave and surge are perfect in my mind. As is the ST300.How much are you willing to pay for that? 100$? 500$? 1000$?
We just need a higher spec, better tool steel for the plier head.
Consider dumping the cap lifter and can opener or some of the silly flat bits!!
Replaceable saw blade is spot on. Especially if it's using the standard Bosch fitting.
Good sharp double sided file
A full length diamond rod that could also be unscrewed to sharpen the blades
A box cutter with standard size stanley blade fitting
Standard 1/4" bit holder
Such a tool would in my view be indespensible to most trades especially if LM ever got round to adding proper blunt nosed pliers made from proper tool steel.
So in essence, it isn't that far fetched everything already exists out there it just needs a redesign to implement.
I love MT's but I am totally pig sick of the same damn tool load out, absolutely sick of it.
In most trades (at least here) use powertools...
On a construction side they would have
- Drill with bit adapter
- Reciprocating saw, circular saw
- Nail gun
Additionally, most carry
- Flat screwdriver (PB100 is the most popular MT in Switzerland, used for prying, scraping and as lever)
- Hammer
- Box cutter
- Pliers
- Other tools depending on their job
All the tools on a MT are tiny, I mean if you need to cut 10 2x4 you are way faster getting a larger saw. Also, you will get a much cleaner cut with circular saw. You need to cut insulation, get your big ass insulation saw for that.
IMO, MTs are for people who sometimes need tools, but can't justify the weight of a toolbox (e.g. because they walk around too much, or they don't need the tools often enough).
What you have stated is completely at odds as to how I view MT's
Ofcourse powertools are better and you would look such an idiot attempting to perform repetitive cuts using a 3-4" blade.
My view on MT's is nothing other than a valuable back up for unforeseen situations and hence why it is imperative that you have 100% trust that the tool on your belt will do its best within the limitations of its size. I ask nor expect nothing more.
I get the idea that some just like to phaff!! Sadly I'm not one. If it means making do with a silly MT or walking 10ft into the garage...I'll walk the 10ft!!
And it's only because I simply do not have any confidence in what is currently available.
Yes various MTs from various manufacturers have better designs over each other, but I'm not going to carry several MT's on my belt just so that I can be sure I have the best tool implement between them should a situation arise.
That's the bottom line for me.
I still carry the Gerber Balance and Rolson box cutter at work, the box cutter is amazing the balance is a piece of smurfe, but it's tweezers are magnificent and it's the only reason it's edc' d on a daily basis at work.
Here in the UK the LMs are expensive to buy new, but their high cost simply does not give what is promised.
And there lies my beef
They are all still pretty much gadgets.
Post by: kaput on January 29, 2018, 06:01:37 PM
True that. Plus isn't it comparative to the juice line for example, different colors, tools, sizes etc? Honda dx ex lx and so on.. :think:What I think should be done is, let the customer choose what they want in the knifeAnd how often are you constrained to what the dealer has in stock? :ahhh
If you buy a brand new car you get the option to choose your optional extras
Like what engine, colour, stereo, wheels, brakes, etc
Why can't we do this with multitools
And order what you want in your knife :think:
Post by: kaput on January 29, 2018, 06:03:36 PM
Customization costs a smurfload of $$$, how many "normal" customers (ie. not us ;)) are prepared to pay the extra? :pok:This too. PLUS, lets not forget the special editions and color combos that get released, to TRY and keep peeps happy :ahhh which seems to be getting increasingly harder and harder!
Post by: AimlessWanderer on January 29, 2018, 06:09:21 PM
Leatherman's 4.1/2" frame size doesn't work for me. The MP600 and Diesel does. Too much splay, too many hot spots. That wipes out a good section of LM offerings. The Rebar and Signal are also riddled with hotspots and suffer excessive splay. The Charge's don't offer anything extra over the Wave, and just have fatter handles whick for me makes them less ergonomic. Gerber is generally a lot better in this respect.
I typically used the main gripping areas more than the wire cutters. The main gripping area is impeded by the indexable cutters, and can reduce effectiveness of gripping, or dig into the workpiece. The Spirit and Gerber offerings do not suffer this. OK, the LM cutters are usable, unlike the Gerber replacable ones, but I'd still rather have a Gerber or Victorinox plier head with integral cutters.
Quality. Currently a big problem for Leatherman in my experience. I've probably had more than my fair share of failings, and have had more issues with Leatherman's quality than with Gerber's. SOG still has them beat in terms of abysmal build quality, but Leatherman is certainly runner up in my opinion. I haven't owned ANY keyring sized tools from LM that have been free of issues. That includes the Micra in case you are wondering. That's why I have a Gerber Dime on my keys. It's not as well designed in terms of plier strength, but at least everything functions as it should.
Wingman family. Locking knife and non locking drivers is the wrong way around. Also, the ergonomics are horrendous. Give me an MP400 any day.
No multitool is perfect. They are always a compromise. But there is too much compromise on LM for me. High price, low quality standard, poor ergonomics, ineffective gripping areas. In my eyes, better value can be had elsewhere.
Do I still own/use them? Yes. I have modded a Fuse and Wave to knifeless, and they are good tools. I also still have a KF4 which keeps the bulk of the good ideas from the Juice line, and has the fewest quality issues. I also have a Sideclip which is an excellent tool. Only one of those is still available today, and one of them I would class as endangered since the plus models were announced.
While I wouldn't want to impede on anyone else's enjoyment of their tools, (if you like them, good luck to you) I see nothing of interest in their current offerings of the direction in which they seem to be headed. Huge thanks to LM for driving the industry forward, but you're not having any more of my money. I would rather buy a Victorinox or Gerber.
Post by: powernoodle on January 29, 2018, 06:13:45 PM
1 - total redesign of the Juice series
2 - more MTs with outside-opening tools for easy acccess, which also gives you a smooth grip when using the pliers
3 - lose the stubby drivers on the Wave, etc. and replace with long shank drivers like God intended for mankind, and
3 - get rid of the Tread. It is Leatherman's Jar Jar Binks.
These are nit picky. I own plenty of Leathermans and will prolly buy more in the future. I'm waiting on a Camo Fuse from SteveC right now. [Everyone needs at least 2 Camo Fuses]. He is one of the worst drug pushers on MTO. I mean one of the best.
(http://smileyicons.net/s/663.gif)
Post by: kaput on January 29, 2018, 06:17:33 PM
I moved away some time ago. If I had to start again acquiring multitools, but still retained my knowledge and experience, the 2nd Gen Wave is the only Leatherman tool that I would consider - but not at today's prices. If they are phased out, leaving only the new plus models, that means there will be NO products in their current lineup that I would buy.C'mon man your missing the thread. Again you just want to bash Leatherman any chance you get, we get it. Not the point of the thread. By the way, when did the MP 600 come out? You mention all the models of Leatherman that are crap (to you that is). But don't forget that Gerber for sure has turds in their lineup too... :whistle:
Leatherman's 4.1/2" frame size doesn't work for me. The MP600 and Diesel does. Too much splay, too many hot spots. That wipes out a good section of LM offerings. The Rebar and Signal are also riddled with hotspots and suffer excessive splay. The Charge's don't offer anything extra over the Wave, and just have fatter handles whick for me makes them less ergonomic. Gerber is generally a lot better in this respect.
I typically used the main gripping areas more than the wire cutters. The main gripping area is impeded by the indexable cutters, and can reduce effectiveness of gripping, or dig into the workpiece. The Spirit and Gerber offerings do not suffer this. OK, the LM cutters are usable, unlike the Gerber replacable ones, but I'd still rather have a Gerber or Victorinox plier head with integral cutters.
Quality. Currently a big problem for Leatherman in my experience. I've probably had more than my fair share of failings, and have had more issues with Leatherman's quality than with Gerber's. SOG still has them beat in terms of abysmal build quality, but Leatherman is certainly runner up in my opinion. I haven't owned ANY keyring sized tools from LM that have been free of issues. That includes the Micra in case you are wondering. That's why I have a Gerber Dime on my keys. It's not as well designed in terms of plier strength, but at least everything functions as it should.
Wingman family. Locking knife and non locking drivers is the wrong way around. Also, the ergonomics are horrendous. Give me an MP400 any day.
No multitool is perfect. They are always a compromise. But there is too much compromise on LM for me. High price, low quality standard, poor ergonomics, ineffective gripping areas. In my eyes, better value can be had elsewhere.
Do I still own/use them? Yes. I have modded a Fuse and Wave to knifeless, and they are good tools. I also still have a KF4 which keeps the bulk of the good ideas from the Juice line, and has the fewest quality issues. I also have a Sideclip which is an excellent tool. Only one of those is still available today, and one of them I would class as endangered since the plus models were announced.
While I wouldn't want to impede on anyone else's enjoyment of their tools, (if you like them, good luck to you) I see nothing of interest in their current offerings of the direction in which they seem to be headed. Huge thanks to LM for driving the industry forward, but you're not having any more of my money. I would rather buy a Victorinox or Gerber.
Back to topic
Post by: tosh on January 29, 2018, 06:27:39 PM
For me personally I still regard the Wave and its big brother the Surge as the best LM has yet produced. If LM could just upgrade the tool layout for 2018 and offer the blunt nose pliers I think it would be a amazing tool for trades...I really do.
But it's clear MT's are still hell bent on trying to be a SAK with pliers. I find the whole thing a massive failure. A SAK is a SAK, small and easily pocketable. MT's are much larger, heavier and ultimately bulkier in comparison plus they have belt pouches, why on earth try to emulate a SAK??
I just don't understand the obsession.
Can't a MT still not walk it's own path and become a stand alone tool rather than constantly trying to eat into SAK sales.
About time Leatherman and the likes took some responsibility and finally delivered to the masses what was needed..
Post by: AimlessWanderer on January 29, 2018, 07:05:34 PM
C'mon man your missing the thread. Again you just want to bash Leatherman any chance you get, we get it. Not the point of the thread. By the way, when did the MP 600 come out? You mention all the models of Leatherman that are crap (to you that is). But don't forget that Gerber for sure has turds in their lineup too... :whistle:
Back to topic
I highlighted specific ways in which they are evolving away from what I would want in a tool. Is that not the point of this thread? If this is just going to descend in attacking anyone who thinks differently to you, I'll return back to the shadows. Find someone else to have a pissing contest with, cos I ain't interested, and you're not worth my time.
As to the new + plier head designs, they do look weaker than I'd expect from a replaceable cutter head, but to be honest I haven't paid enough attention to them to make specific comments.
As regards tool sets, everyone wants something different. Needle nosed were more useful to me than blunt, on the whole. Some folks love bit drivers, other prefer long drivers. I don't need a locking blade, but a non-locking blade is a deal breaker for many people.
You can always choose a toolset based on your own needs, but it's important to find the tool ergonomic for long term use if it's a tool you're going to rely on. If it's pliers based, all aspects of the pliers should function well. Most importantly you should be able to trust the tool that you have in your pocket. I think there has been a trend over recent years to strive for tools which are commercially focussed, rather than practically focussed. That trend has not been confined to one manufacturer either. SOG are by far the biggest culprit in my opinion, but it does seem to be a market wide trend. Great for collectors, not so good for people who have to rely on their tools.
Post by: ThundahBeagle on January 29, 2018, 07:23:42 PM
I don't think the design needs change. The wave and surge are perfect in my mind. As is the ST300.
We just need a higher spec, better tool steel for the plier head.
Consider dumping the cap lifter and can opener or some of the silly flat bits!!
Replaceable saw blade is spot on. Especially if it's using the standard Bosch fitting.
Good sharp double sided file
A full length diamond rod that could also be unscrewed to sharpen the blades
A box cutter with standard size stanley blade fitting
Standard 1/4" bit holder
Such a tool would in my view be indespensible to most trades especially if LM ever got round to adding proper blunt nosed pliers made from proper tool steel.
So in essence, it isn't that far fetched everything already exists out there it just needs a redesign to implement.
I love MT's but I am totally pig sick of the same damn tool load out, absolutely sick of it.
Tosh,
There is nothing wrong with the steel currently being used. I don't want to spend $150 every time I want a multi tool. There is 420hc for the masses, 54cm for the wire cutters, and sv 30 blades for those who care. Even aluminum or titanium scales.
How often are you breaking plyers on these things? Maybe you should reconsider the tasks for which you use them.
Cap lifter gets used. Regardless if you don't like it, it does get used. In a crappy situation there are still a lot of bottles and cans that don't twist or pull off. Many are still produced that way, and of course, there are undoubtedly a lot in storage like that.
So are the flat head screw drivers used. They are used regularly by me. And I'm sure by many others.
I for one enjoy popping open a bottle of suds after 're-clamping my truck's radiator hoses. And I can do it all with one handy device containing a cap lifter and flat heads. Sorry you don't like it. I love it. Don't get me wrong, I get plenty of use from the Phillips head as well.
I absolutely agree with you on the diamond rod and having it screw onto and off of the main tool for use. I have said that many times regarding the Signal, for example. Same for its Ferro rod. But the whistle should be integral to the metal frame.
Too much customization screws up an automated assembly system. When you realise that each different add on means it has to branch off the line, you must realise that this raises costs. Honda makes basically three lines of every Civic. The Dx entry model with no radio and roll up Windows, the LX with power windows and a radio, and the EX with all that and a sunroof.
The point is K.I.S.S.
If something works, don't F with it. There is debate over wether the Swisstools are better than Leathermans, but ultimately they are built on very similar platforms.
Does Leatherman bite into Swiss Army Knife sales and territory? Yep. And I'm fine with that. That's what gave Victorinox A$$-pucker factor enough to buy Bear Jaws and use the patent to create the Swiss tools. Notice they didn't create something all new. Well, neither did Tim Leatherman. His PST is not much different than a fisherman's tool being made out of Solingen just after world war 2, and SAK s are not that different than pen knives And multi-knives being made back to the late 1700's
What do you want? If the tool you talk about with files and Stanley blade receivers isn't available, make it and sell it. That's what Tim did.
Post by: ThundahBeagle on January 29, 2018, 07:28:07 PM
Its not going to be "a bit more". With customization, the automation is out of the window...What I think should be done is, let the customer choose what they want in the knifeAnd how often are you constrained to what the dealer has in stock? :ahhh
If you buy a brand new car you get the option to choose your optional extras
Like what engine, colour, stereo, wheels, brakes, etc
Why can't we do this with multitools
And order what you want in your knife :think:Quote from: AlephZero link=topic=75648.msg1625574#msg1625574
date=1517240623
Customization costs a smurfload of $$$, how many "normal" customers (ie. not us ;)) are prepared to pay the extra? :pok:
I get what you both say :tu:
But if there is the option to have the multitool as is ?
or for a bit more money I can have the knife
I want then that's worth the wait and extra money in my eyes
And we wouldn't be having to mod our multitool and still have our warranty :think:
Very true, Eth
Post by: ThundahBeagle on January 29, 2018, 07:33:50 PM
I moved away some time ago. If I had to start again acquiring multitools, but still retained my knowledge and experience, the 2nd Gen Wave is the only Leatherman tool that I would consider - but not at today's prices. If they are phased out, leaving only the new plus models, that means there will be NO products in their current lineup that I would buy.
Leatherman's 4.1/2" frame size doesn't work for me. The MP600 and Diesel does. Too much splay, too many hot spots. That wipes out a good section of LM offerings. The Rebar and Signal are also riddled with hotspots and suffer excessive splay. The Charge's don't offer anything extra over the Wave, and just have fatter handles whick for me makes them less ergonomic. Gerber is generally a lot better in this respect.
I typically used the main gripping areas more than the wire cutters. The main gripping area is impeded by the indexable cutters, and can reduce effectiveness of gripping, or dig into the workpiece. The Spirit and Gerber offerings do not suffer this. OK, the LM cutters are usable, unlike the Gerber replacable ones, but I'd still rather have a Gerber or Victorinox plier head with integral cutters.
Quality. Currently a big problem for Leatherman in my experience. I've probably had more than my fair share of failings, and have had more issues with Leatherman's quality than with Gerber's. SOG still has them beat in terms of abysmal build quality, but Leatherman is certainly runner up in my opinion. I haven't owned ANY keyring sized tools from LM that have been free of issues. That includes the Micra in case you are wondering. That's why I have a Gerber Dime on my keys. It's not as well designed in terms of plier strength, but at least everything functions as it should.
Wingman family. Locking knife and non locking drivers is the wrong way around. Also, the ergonomics are horrendous. Give me an MP400 any day.
No multitool is perfect. They are always a compromise. But there is too much compromise on LM for me. High price, low quality standard, poor ergonomics, ineffective gripping areas. In my eyes, better value can be had elsewhere.
Do I still own/use them? Yes. I have modded a Fuse and Wave to knifeless, and they are good tools. I also still have a KF4 which keeps the bulk of the good ideas from the Juice line, and has the fewest quality issues. I also have a Sideclip which is an excellent tool. Only one of those is still available today, and one of them I would class as endangered since the plus models were announced.
While I wouldn't want to impede on anyone else's enjoyment of their tools, (if you like them, good luck to you) I see nothing of interest in their current offerings of the direction in which they seem to be headed. Huge thanks to LM for driving the industry forward, but you're not having any more of my money. I would rather buy a Victorinox or Gerber.
Fifty!!
Wow. Haven't seen you in a while. I disagree with you on some of the leatherman tools - I'm quite happy with the ones I have PST , PSTII, OFGSuper Tool, OG Surge, Rebar and others- but good to see you and get your logic-oriented feedback
Post by: ThundahBeagle on January 29, 2018, 07:38:27 PM
Post by: dks on January 29, 2018, 07:45:54 PM
http://survivalbuddies.com/special/leatherman
Spending $150 on a new LM is the norm.
I can get a Ganzo, Cima, Bahco, B&D, Stanley (possibly all made by the same people) for around $25
Post by: AimlessWanderer on January 29, 2018, 07:48:34 PM
Fifty!!
Wow. Haven't seen you in a while. I disagree with you on some of the leatherman tools - I'm quite happy with the ones I have PST , PSTII, OFGSuper Tool, OG Surge, Rebar and others- but good to see you and get your logic-oriented feedback
Thanks TB. :cheers:
The PST siblings don't work as well for me as they do for others, but I am a fan of the Sideclip. That's the one that tick the box for me in the old stuff. Partly the clip, partly the thicker handle material. The thing that made it really stand out for me was when I compared it to the Mini tool. For the bulk and weight, it was vastly superior in terms of capability, and while it took me a while to recognise the value of a Sideclip (I got rid of my first one), it does pair exceptionally well with a SAK.
The Supertool and Surge didn't win me over, but I do understand the appeal to others. The Gerbers just feel better in my hands, which is a higher priority to me than the length of the Phillips driver for example.
I tried the Rebar twice, as stock and modded, and just couldn't get on with it. Some guys love it, but I found it very uncomfortable to hold, and loathed the pliers head. Again, I can see the appeal for some people, and have recommended other people try it when they been asking for recommendations where it seemed like a contender, but it was a huge fail for me.
We all have different priorities for our tools though, and there is no universal answer for everyone. :salute:
Post by: Mechanickal on January 29, 2018, 07:51:58 PM
Here are for reference the dealer prices for LM in Europe (Multiply by 1.23 to get the dollar price) - they are actually cheaper now, compared to a couple of years ago.Just checked today.
http://survivalbuddies.com/special/leatherman
Spending $150 on a new LM is the norm.
I can get a Ganzo, Cima, Bahco, B&D, Stanley (possibly all made by the same people) for around $25
A wave costs nearly the same as a Swisstool here.
If I want it with nylon sheath, it'll cost as much as the Spirit Plus package.
Post by: tosh on January 29, 2018, 07:52:22 PM
Sadly I don't use MT's (besides the edc at work Gerber Balance), not because I don't want to, but because I cannot for the life of me visualise a situation where I would ever need Needlenose pliers, a cap lifter, can opener, several flat bits :facepalm:
So why would I want to lug an MT around 24/7??
The woodsaw on the wave is not replaceable and I would suspect very very hard to resharpen . Considering the Wave is around £100 here in the UK that makes for a very expensive yet still disposable tool. The answer of course is make it fully replaceable, hence the jigsaw or cut down recip blades. Or better still have genuine LM replacements at £10 a chuck....I'd then be totally care free with using it.
fact is I would pay a premium price for a proper multitool. One that was built to impeccable standards.
slightly off topic but the MUT here in the UK now retails for almost £200. That's an obscene amount of money for what is primarily a defunct tool here in the UK.
But my point is people are buying otherwise the market wouldn't be there, so it figures that people would buy a proper heavy duty tool that could withstand use in the real hardworking situations.
That's all I ask.
Post by: tosh on January 29, 2018, 08:06:02 PM
But whilst I love the big meaty blunt nose pliers I absolutely hate the internal tools.
The steel feels almost wafer thin, I have a few that were purchased used where internal tools have just snapped off!! :ahhh
I grabbed a used center drive sometime back and it feels like a step in the right direction for me, just waiting for the blunt nose to make an appearance. :drool:
Post by: Kampfer on January 29, 2018, 08:20:36 PM
Hi guys.I had expressed all MT.o 's concerns (including yours) to Tim Leatherman, the man himself last week at shotshow.
I might be changing camps soon. I have a long history with LM tools and a lot of sentiment for them but I need stuff that works and makes my life and work as easy as possible. In my opinion update to the Surge was the last highlight, since then my love for LM is fading with every year. Instead of improving and developing existing tools they go in to keyrings and knives and other snowboard faff. And now this: replecable cutters on the Wave/Charge like that!!?? How little metal is left in there? I'm so happy I have invested in a Recharge years ago, now I know it will be the best LM option for another 10 years...
For me Leatherman is currently running 70% on reputation and their warranty policy. But from usability point of view they are no longer the best on the market, they have been mached by SOG, Swisstool and (I can't belive I'm saying this) Gerber. Have you seen SOG poweraccess deluxe or powerpint or powerplay? Or the update to Gerber suspension! All blades available from outside, bit holders, long screwdrivers, real steinless steel, pouches with accessories....
But it's more important to release £200 metal bracelet, £500 watch or reheat oldest tool for £300 instead of innowating and leading the industry.
What do you think, are you looking around to change your main mt? Just trying to share my dissapointment...
Post by: AlephZero on January 29, 2018, 08:46:39 PM
The only real changes I would like to see with Leatherman are these:
1 - total redesign of the Juice series
2 - more MTs with outside-opening tools for easy acccess, which also gives you a smooth grip when using the pliers
3 - lose the stubby drivers on the Wave, etc. and replace with long shank drivers like God intended for mankind, and
3 - get rid of the Tread. It is Leatherman's Jar Jar Binks.
These are nit picky. I own plenty of Leathermans and will prolly buy more in the future. I'm waiting on a Camo Fuse from SteveC right now. [Everyone needs at least 2 Camo Fuses]. He is one of the worst drug pushers on MTO. I mean one of the best.
(http://smileyicons.net/s/663.gif)
I happen to like Jar Jar...
Do NOT get rid of the Tread, if it brings in the $$$ it's all good! It's not for us, no, but if it keeps LM afloat, more power to them...
Let's face it, we are not the designed customer base for any of the Multitool makers, we are the most enthusiastic, most passionate, but we are not the target.
The target is the big crowds, and things we are interested in, are not the same as theirs.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on January 29, 2018, 08:48:30 PM
The target is the big crowds, and things we are interested in, are not the same as theirs.
:tu: :salute:
Post by: AlephZero on January 29, 2018, 08:55:17 PM
The target is the big crowds, and things we are interested in, are not the same as theirs.
:tu: :salute:
Al :salute:
Post by: Top-Gear-24 on January 29, 2018, 09:03:32 PM
Some people here are quite fanatical when it comes to brand loyalty. In the past there already has been a topic in which somebody criticized a Leatherman tool, or Leatherman's QC and ended up getting personal remarks, so I'll keep it as short as possible and this will be my first and only post in this topic.
I can understand brand loyalty, especially when it's a brand from your own country. But try to understand that over here, there are also people who really like Leatherman, but the way I see it we have to like Leatherman twice or even three times more than the U.S. fans, seeing what we have to pay for Leatherman tools. So please don't think we're bashing Leatherman when some of us are starting to ask question about the direction in which Leatherman is moving. Over here a Surge costs 189,9 Euro at the local shop, 199,9 Euro if you want a BO version ... I wonder how the U.S. fans would react if they had to pay these amounts.
About the new tools Leatherman is bringing out, well, I don't care for the snowboard stuff (since I have no use for it, but that's just me), and I don't like the "half" tools. BUT, since no one is forcing me to buy these, I don't really care about them.
What I do care about is the fact that, when I spend 189,9 Euro on a tool, it should be perfect. No rubbing of tools against the handle, no loose tools, no scissors that fail after being used twice, no knife safety pin (you know, the thingy on the Wave/Charge/Surge that prevents the blade from opening while using the pliers) that's too long so the knife can't be opened even when the tool is closed, and so on ...
Back in '94 I bought my first multitool, it was a brandnew original Supertool. I paid 2400 BEF (Belgian Francs) for it, which is about 60 Euro, and for this I got a tool which was perfect in every way, none of the problems I mentioned above, NONE !!! These days a ST300 goes for around 130 Euro and in my opinion, it's always a bit of a gamble, do I get one with a couple of flaws, or with just one flaw, or is it one without flaws this time ...
This was not the case back in the '90s ... ::)
I still like Leatherman tools a lot, I'm still a big fan of the brand. But if possible, I will buy a Leatherman at a store where I can hold it in my hands and check it to see if there are any fit and finish problems first.
P.S.: I just know I'll buy myself a Wave + (or even a Charge +) once they become available over here ... still being a Leatherman fan 8).
Post by: Mechanickal on January 29, 2018, 09:48:44 PM
This is one of those topics which can go downhill real quick ...:imws:
Some people here are quite fanatical when it comes to brand loyalty. In the past there already has been a topic in which somebody criticized a Leatherman tool, or Leatherman's QC and ended up getting personal remarks, so I'll keep it as short as possible and this will be my first and only post in this topic.
I can understand brand loyalty, especially when it's a brand from your own country. But try to understand that over here, there are also people who really like Leatherman, but the way I see it we have to like Leatherman twice or even three times more than the U.S. fans, seeing what we have to pay for Leatherman tools. So please don't think we're bashing Leatherman when some of us are starting to ask question about the direction in which Leatherman is moving. Over here a Surge costs 189,9 Euro at the local shop, 199,9 Euro if you want a BO version ... I wonder how the U.S. fans would react if they had to pay these amounts.
About the new tools Leatherman is bringing out, well, I don't care for the snowboard stuff (since I have no use for it, but that's just me), and I don't like the "half" tools. BUT, since no one is forcing me to buy these, I don't really care about them.
What I do care about is the fact that, when I spend 189,9 Euro on a tool, it should be perfect. No rubbing of tools against the handle, no loose tools, no scissors that fail after being used twice, no knife safety pin (you know, the thingy on the Wave/Charge/Surge that prevents the blade from opening while using the pliers) that's too long so the knife can't be opened even when the tool is closed, and so on ...
Back in '94 I bought my first multitool, it was a brandnew original Supertool. I paid 2400 BEF (Belgian Francs) for it, which is about 60 Euro, and for this I got a tool which was perfect in every way, none of the problems I mentioned above, NONE !!! These days a ST300 goes for around 130 Euro and in my opinion, it's always a bit of a gamble, do I get one with a couple of flaws, or with just one flaw, or is it one without flaws this time ...
This was not the case back in the '90s ... ::)
I still like Leatherman tools a lot, I'm still a big fan of the brand. But if possible, I will buy a Leatherman at a store where I can hold it in my hands and check it to see if there are any fit and finish problems first.
P.S.: I just know I'll buy myself a Wave + (or even a Charge +) once they become available over here ... still being a Leatherman fan 8).
Post by: AimlessWanderer on January 29, 2018, 10:29:31 PM
This is one of those topics which can go downhill real quick ...
Some people here are quite fanatical when it comes to brand loyalty. In the past there already has been a topic in which somebody criticized a Leatherman tool, or Leatherman's QC and ended up getting personal remarks, so I'll keep it as short as possible and this will be my first and only post in this topic.
In the many years that I've been a member here, I have criticised every single manufacturer many times over, sometimes for individual features, sometimes a whole tool, and sometimes a whole product line.
Victorinox, for their 74 and 111mm lines, Spirit scissors and wire cutters, Minichamp, fish tickler, and much more...
Wenger, for their 130mm "ergonomic" scales, padlock system, 85mm alligator wrench, Swissgrip ergonomics, that mountaineer knife that used half a drinks coaster as a blade, and much more...
Gerber, for their disintegrating cutters, sprung plier head lifespan, Flik ratchet design, Dime plier spring design, any and all external use of the Saf-T-Lok system, and much more....
Leatherman, for their handle splay, ergonomics, impeded gripping areas, quality control, and much more...
SOG, for virtually everything they've done in the last 10 years,
CRKT, for their quirky curios that never really seem to capture any functionality as a multitool,
All the various tools have also at some point been recommended by me to someone else looking for a tool. I've always accepted that my opinions and frustrations might not apply to someone else, and have often suggested a tool that I don't like, to someone who may benefit from it's particular design attributes, in the hope that it works better for someone else than it did for me.
Across the years and the various forum boards at MTO, there's always been room for a difference of opinion. There's always been a YMMV attitude, and an appreciation of the different priorities and circumstances of individual users. With one prevailing exception. Make a criticism of Leatherman, and SOME of the fanboys will feel utterly compelled to get their pitchforks out. They are the ONLY ONES who get their knickers in a twist and get all butt hurt by someone else's opinions. With this in mind, I've always felt comfortable and confident to support my criticisms when they have been attacked, as I'm pretty certain the lack of rationale or objectivity isn't residing at this end of my tiny little spur of the internet.
True story.
Post by: in_sympathy on January 29, 2018, 10:47:01 PM
This is so funny its actually ridiculous.+1, totally agree
On the entire market there are no better Multitools than the Rebar/ST300 or Wave/Surge; depending if you like inside tools or one hand opening.
Choose inside or outside, choose medium or large. All have replaceable cutters now, a state of total dominance has just been achieved.
Boom! Leatherman total perfection.
Post by: SteveC on January 29, 2018, 10:48:15 PM
There are plenty on the Vic forum that get bent when you criticize their MT's and there are those that only ever come on the LM forum to pile on when there is a gripe thread, not directing this at you Al just in general.
Lets just try to keep it friendly fellas :tu:
Post by: AimlessWanderer on January 29, 2018, 10:55:00 PM
I've been out of the loop for a while, so haven’t seen any recent "trends". I was just expressing a general opinion of my years here.
:cheers:
Post by: kaput on January 29, 2018, 10:55:52 PM
I like multitools™ in general.
Long live the multitool, in addition to my tool bag :D , long live Gerber, Leatherman, SOG etc!
Post by: SteveC on January 29, 2018, 10:56:15 PM
Thanks Steve :tu:
I've been out of the loop for a while, so haven’t seen any recent "trends". I was just expressing a general opinion of my years here.
:cheers:
Good to have you around Al ! :cheers:
Post by: ThundahBeagle on January 29, 2018, 11:43:11 PM
Fifty!!
Wow. Haven't seen you in a while. I disagree with you on some of the leatherman tools - I'm quite happy with the ones I have PST , PSTII, OFGSuper Tool, OG Surge, Rebar and others- but good to see you and get your logic-oriented feedback
Thanks TB. :cheers:
The PST siblings don't work as well for me as they do for others, but I am a fan of the Sideclip. That's the one that tick the box for me in the old stuff. Partly the clip, partly the thicker handle material. The thing that made it really stand out for me was when I compared it to the Mini tool. For the bulk and weight, it was vastly superior in terms of capability, and while it took me a while to recognise the value of a Sideclip (I got rid of my first one), it does pair exceptionally well with a SAK.
The Supertool and Surge didn't win me over, but I do understand the appeal to others. The Gerbers just feel better in my hands, which is a higher priority to me than the length of the Phillips driver for example.
I tried the Rebar twice, as stock and modded, and just couldn't get on with it. Some guys love it, but I found it very uncomfortable to hold, and loathed the pliers head. Again, I can see the appeal for some people, and have recommended other people try it when they been asking for recommendations where it seemed like a contender, but it was a huge fail for me.
We all have different priorities for our tools though, and there is no universal answer for everyone. :salute:
So, Fifty, I've been considering trying some Gerber as well. Now I may also look at a sideclip. Back to Gerber, I've got in my favorites list an MP 600 and a Pro Scout, as well as an MP 400. I wanted to start with something closer to their original design so I can compare it to the classic leatherman s that I like.
What's best of those three, in your opinion?
Post by: ThundahBeagle on January 29, 2018, 11:59:56 PM
@ThundahBeagle
Sadly I don't use MT's (besides the edc at work Gerber Balance), not because I don't want to, but because I cannot for the life of me visualise a situation where I would ever need Needlenose pliers, a cap lifter, can opener, several flat bits :facepalm:
So why would I want to lug an MT around 24/7??
The woodsaw on the wave is not replaceable and I would suspect very very hard to resharpen . Considering the Wave is around £100 here in the UK that makes for a very expensive yet still disposable tool. The answer of course is make it fully replaceable, hence the jigsaw or cut down recip blades. Or better still have genuine LM replacements at £10 a chuck....I'd then be totally care free with using it.
fact is I would pay a premium price for a proper multitool. One that was built to impeccable standards.
slightly off topic but the MUT here in the UK now retails for almost £200. That's an obscene amount of money for what is primarily a defunct tool here in the UK.
But my point is people are buying otherwise the market wouldn't be there, so it figures that people would buy a proper heavy duty tool that could withstand use in the real hardworking situations.
That's all I ask.
I hear you, Tosh. But what tools do you want? Sounds to me like most of your Swiss Army Knife collection gets tossed as well. Consider a typical swiss army knife also has two flathead screwdrivers, a can opener, and a bottle opener, then you are saying most of a Spartan or Tinker is also useless and not worth carrying. So, all that is left of the most typical SAK at that point it a couple of small knives and a corkscrew. Or a Phillips head.
The wood saw on a SAK is not replaceable either, though it cost much less than a Wave. So that tosses out the Camper for you, too. Are you using that corkscrew on the job? Probably not.
So, carry a Buck knife, a blunt nose plyers, and a Phillips head screwdriver around in your pockets or a tool belt or a homemade sheath. You could use a stubby short Phillips.
Do you also not like Gerbers blunt plyers options? I ask seriously, as I am considering that route
I have a Surge and I love that the saw is replaceable. A saw or set of bits is $10-$15. I agree it should be so on the Wave as well. They should have done that with the Plus model. By the way, the Wave MSRP is $90 bucks here, so you don't have that one too badly.
Post by: tosh on January 30, 2018, 12:26:11 AM
@ThundahBeagle
Sadly I don't use MT's (besides the edc at work Gerber Balance), not because I don't want to, but because I cannot for the life of me visualise a situation where I would ever need Needlenose pliers, a cap lifter, can opener, several flat bits :facepalm:
So why would I want to lug an MT around 24/7??
The woodsaw on the wave is not replaceable and I would suspect very very hard to resharpen . Considering the Wave is around £100 here in the UK that makes for a very expensive yet still disposable tool. The answer of course is make it fully replaceable, hence the jigsaw or cut down recip blades. Or better still have genuine LM replacements at £10 a chuck....I'd then be totally care free with using it.
fact is I would pay a premium price for a proper multitool. One that was built to impeccable standards.
slightly off topic but the MUT here in the UK now retails for almost £200. That's an obscene amount of money for what is primarily a defunct tool here in the UK.
But my point is people are buying otherwise the market wouldn't be there, so it figures that people would buy a proper heavy duty tool that could withstand use in the real hardworking situations.
That's all I ask.
I hear you, Tosh. But what tools do you want? Sounds to me like most of your Swiss Army Knife collection gets tossed as well. Consider a typical swiss army knife also has two flathead screwdrivers, a can opener, and a bottle opener, then you are saying most of a Spartan or Tinker is also useless and not worth carrying. So, all that is left of the most typical SAK at that point it a couple of small knives and a corkscrew. Or a Phillips head.
The wood saw on a SAK is not replaceable either, though it cost much less than a Wave. So that tosses out the Camper for you, too. Are you using that corkscrew on the job? Probably not.
So, carry a Buck knife, a blunt nose plyers, and a Phillips head screwdriver around in your pockets or a tool belt or a homemade sheath. You could use a stubby short Phillips.
Do you also not like Gerbers blunt plyers options? I ask seriously, as I am considering that route
I have a Surge and I love that the saw is replaceable. A saw or set of bits is $10-$15. I agree it should be so on the Wave as well. They should have done that with the Plus model. By the way, the Wave MSRP is $90 bucks here, so you don't have that one too badly.
As already mentioned
I EDC a Gerber Balance and a cheap Rolson Box Cutter at work. That set up has seen daily use for the past 3-4yrs. The Balance pliers are truly naff. The CE Blade is not my thing either. The Fisker scissors are fine as are the long drivers. But the real star is the tweezers, they are superb!
I used to carry a Wave (classic) plus Vic champ when we used to go camping, but we sold both the caravan and tent last year so neither gets used, unless we go on hols.
As for my Collection.....none of it sees use. I've never used a Wenger for anything as far as I can remember. I have the Bucks you mention and yes they are a step in the right direction, a little big and bulky mind you.
The Gerbers, by which I'm referring to the MP600 and 400 series were what originally started the collecting bug, needless to say I have many. The Blunt nosed are my personal favourite, but I dislike the access to inside tools. The tools themselves maybe fine, but they don't seem to fit in with the HD look of the tool itself, the blades always look fragile to me, I have many that have snapped blades, so clearly I'm onto something. I like the center drive and have promised myself to replace my Gerber Balance at work when a Blunt nose version is released.
I wish LM would make a plier head for the Surge identical to the Gerber blunt nose. I would EDC that daily. But as it is, I cannot remember the last time I needed to use needlenose pliers, for me and my wants and needs they are all but useless. Hence why I simply don't EDC no more.
Post by: AimlessWanderer on January 30, 2018, 12:27:42 AM
So, Fifty, I've been considering trying some Gerber as well. Now I may also look at a sideclip. Back to Gerber, I've got in my favorites list an MP 600 and a Pro Scout, as well as an MP 400. I wanted to start with something closer to their original design so I can compare it to the classic leatherman s that I like.
What's best of those three, in your opinion?
Steer clear of the indexable cutters, and you'll be fine!
Blunt nosed, needle nosed, whatever takes your fancy. I currently have a modded knifeless 400, a modded knifeless 600, a modded knifeless Diesel (I think this is another good offering, but the partial thickness Phillips might be it's Achilles heel for you), and a 600 where I've replaced the pliers with shears. I think they're all great - it just depends which suits my needs best at the time.
I do have more reservations about the Centredrive though, which I'll mention in case you're considering that. Not only has it got the evaporating cutters, but also Gerber's sprung plier head has a diminished lifespan in my experience. There's a few cast parts that concern me too (bit driver and pry tool) and I know Etherealicer had issues with the pry tool, but I'm not sure if my concerns on the driver arm have been justified yet. Personally, I'd consider the 400 and 600 a safer bet, so long as you get integral cutters, not replaceable. That said, last time I looked, people were giving the CD fairly decent reviews, so please just take my comments as one of many people's appraisals if you're considering this tool.
Post by: ThundahBeagle on January 30, 2018, 12:36:52 AM
This is one of those topics which can go downhill real quick ...
Some people here are quite fanatical when it comes to brand loyalty. In the past there already has been a topic in which somebody criticized a Leatherman tool, or Leatherman's QC and ended up getting personal remarks, so I'll keep it as short as possible and this will be my first and only post in this topic.
I can understand brand loyalty, especially when it's a brand from your own country. But try to understand that over here, there are also people who really like Leatherman, but the way I see it we have to like Leatherman twice or even three times more than the U.S. fans, seeing what we have to pay for Leatherman tools. So please don't think we're bashing Leatherman when some of us are starting to ask question about the direction in which Leatherman is moving. Over here a Surge costs 189,9 Euro at the local shop, 199,9 Euro if you want a BO version ... I wonder how the U.S. fans would react if they had to pay these amounts.
About the new tools Leatherman is bringing out, well, I don't care for the snowboard stuff (since I have no use for it, but that's just me), and I don't like the "half" tools. BUT, since no one is forcing me to buy these, I don't really care about them.
What I do care about is the fact that, when I spend 189,9 Euro on a tool, it should be perfect. No rubbing of tools against the handle, no loose tools, no scissors that fail after being used twice, no knife safety pin (you know, the thingy on the Wave/Charge/Surge that prevents the blade from opening while using the pliers) that's too long so the knife can't be opened even when the tool is closed, and so on ...
Back in '94 I bought my first multitool, it was a brandnew original Supertool. I paid 2400 BEF (Belgian Francs) for it, which is about 60 Euro, and for this I got a tool which was perfect in every way, none of the problems I mentioned above, NONE !!! These days a ST300 goes for around 130 Euro and in my opinion, it's always a bit of a gamble, do I get one with a couple of flaws, or with just one flaw, or is it one without flaws this time ...
This was not the case back in the '90s ... ::)
I still like Leatherman tools a lot, I'm still a big fan of the brand. But if possible, I will buy a Leatherman at a store where I can hold it in my hands and check it to see if there are any fit and finish problems first.
P.S.: I just know I'll buy myself a Wave + (or even a Charge +) once they become available over here ... still being a Leatherman fan 8).
Hi TG 24
To me, brand loyalty must be earned, and we all have a right to speak about something we don't like. See my responses in the SAK Hook threads. Yikes. So if a brand deteriorates, whack it.
But we here in the US have nothing to do with why Leatherman is so expensive there. I feel fortunate that Victorinox knives are not very expensive in general. This must all be something to do With EU mass buying power, but Leatherman is a US based and manufactured tool. I don't know what else to say on that...
I also am not a fan of a lot of Leatherman s new gimmick toys. Even a lot of the newer tools I just don't like. Not because they are new, but because the designs sometimes seem different just for the sake of being different. And that's not always good. And Quality Control issues.
That original Super Tool, however, is an absolute testament to simple, robust, locking design of a quality tool. No gadgety locks to break the pins or sliders. All it took was to bend the end of the slip joint back spring into a slight L shape, and locking was achieved. Genius, if not a little cumbersome to UNlock. But it's not meant to be used in a fast motion.
I have two. They are phenomenal. Most of the older stuff has unsurpassed quality. Today's stuff, well the quality suffered a bit in return for different features. I'm not a fan of all newer stuff, but I'm satisfied with my Rebar and my old version (2006) Surge. I like my 2012 Blast but wish plastic never entered the Leatherman world. If not for that, the Blast would be near perfect.
You are right, though, in wanting top quality for top money paid.
Post by: Lynn LeFey on January 30, 2018, 03:27:16 AM
The Gerbers, by which I'm referring to the MP600 and 400 series were what originally started the collecting bug, needless to say I have many. The Blunt nosed are my personal favourite, but I dislike the access to inside tools. The tools themselves maybe fine, but they don't seem to fit in with the HD look of the tool itself, the blades always look fragile to me, I have many that have snapped blades, so clearly I'm onto something.
I got an MP600 with a snapped blade as well, and i'm about 100% certain it was intentionally snapped off to try to make it able to pass through airport security. Because BOTH blades were snapped off at about the same place.
I don't think the blades just spontaneously break, I think the ones that come up on ebay are largely TSA-swiped tools, often where peolpe try to make them passable and fail, leaving lil stubby nubs that can still be used for terrible/horrible/nafarious purposes... like scratching someone deeply.
Thunda: Get an MP600. Get a used one from ebay. They're cheap, even in really good shape, and plentiful. And I think they're kind of THE quintessential Gerber. You might not love it, but I think you'll at least respect the design. My opinion.
Post by: cody6268 on January 30, 2018, 03:47:31 AM
Post by: shark_za on January 30, 2018, 08:35:59 AM
Are we being forsaken? Who is we?
The general MT user or a bunch of enthusiasts who take it a little further in the search of "perfection"
The general user is so well covered by Leatherman you are mad to think otherwise. Sure costs are up but they have refined the product to be dominant in multiple price brackets.
What are we looking for that we feel betrayed? Something better than a Wave? Something new or different every year?
Move on from Leatherman? when its the standby tool in the car, the tool that lives in the camping kit, in the drawer at home.
How does one move on when you have a product and its working in a role or function?
When the next maker invents something that make the Wave seem a bad choice, then we will move on.
Post by: leatherman-shop.de on January 30, 2018, 09:05:14 AM
Here are for reference the dealer prices for LM in Europe (Multiply by 1.23 to get the dollar price) - they are actually cheaper now, compared to a couple of years ago.The prices are not typical for Europe - compare it with the german http://www.leatherman-shop.de. Example: WAVE costs on survivalbuddies 149,50 Euro, the recommended retail price is about 139,00, the actual price on leatherman-shop is 89,90 Euro.
http://survivalbuddies.com/special/leatherman
Spending $150 on a new LM is the norm.
I can get a Ganzo, Cima, Bahco, B&D, Stanley (possibly all made by the same people) for around $25
But you are still right, MTs are cheaper than years ago.
I think Leatherman has to handle with a wide range of customers - Collectors, experts and occasional user. I like the new models and ideas, but the old ones coexist legitimately. It is like a bicycle - some designs have just prove their's worth.
Post by: ddogu on January 30, 2018, 09:22:17 AM
When the next maker invents something that make the Wave seem a bad choice, then we will move on.
:tu: :tu:
I personally do not see anything wrong with LM's late products (eventhough I definitely think the Tread is a silly and useless product but it is just one product they manufacture), YMMV. I see here in MTo some folks who think we're witnessing LM's demise, which to me is an exaggeration.
Things come and go, they rise, go down and then rise again... Even if LM's design and/or quality's going down the sinus curve lately (and this is subjective and not objective, of course), it'll climb up eventually.
I'd say, just sit and enjoy the ride :) :popcorn: LM's not dying, nor is there any need to abandon the sinking ship immediately...
Post by: dks on January 30, 2018, 10:39:03 AM
Here are for reference the dealer prices for LM in Europe (Multiply by 1.23 to get the dollar price) - they are actually cheaper now, compared to a couple of years ago.The prices are not typical for Europe - compare it with the german http://www.leatherman-shop.de. Example: WAVE costs on survivalbuddies 149,50 Euro, the recommended retail price is about 139,00, the actual price on leatherman-shop is 89,90 Euro.
http://survivalbuddies.com/special/leatherman
Spending $150 on a new LM is the norm.
I can get a Ganzo, Cima, Bahco, B&D, Stanley (possibly all made by the same people) for around $25
But you are still right, MTs are cheaper than years ago.
I think Leatherman has to handle with a wide range of customers - Collectors, experts and occasional user. I like the new models and ideas, but the old ones coexist legitimately. It is like a bicycle - some designs have just prove their's worth.
Lucky Germans :)
It is very rare to see anything below MRSP here. so I usually buy online or from other EU countries.
Post by: tosh on January 30, 2018, 10:44:45 AM
Leatherman currently do not offer a single multitool that I feel warrants edc for me.
Not just leatherman, all MT manufacturers as well.
I'm not prepared to compromise, so I'll go without until such a tool emerges that I think "yes, that looks damn useful"
Post by: Etherealicer on January 30, 2018, 11:55:15 AM
Does Leatherman bite into Swiss Army Knife sales and territory? Yep. And I'm fine with that. That's what gave Victorinox A$$-pucker factor enough to buy Bear Jaws and use the patent to create the Swiss tools. Notice they didn't create something all new. Well, neither did Tim Leatherman. His PST is not much different than a fisherman's tool being made out of Solingen just after world war 2, and SAK s are not that different than pen knives And multi-knives being made back to the late 1700'sSAKs / Hobo knives date back to the Romans
Post by: ToolJoe on January 31, 2018, 06:08:49 AM
Post by: Wspeed on January 31, 2018, 02:14:42 PM
One thing I believe that LM is missing out on is putting replaceable cutters on the Crunch. That would make a unique product that much better. :tu:+1 :tu:
Post by: Sam Lim on January 31, 2018, 03:29:09 PM
One thing I believe that LM is missing out on is putting replaceable cutters on the Crunch. That would make a unique product that much better. :tu:
This.. seems like a strange request.. I really can't phantom the idea of using the crunch as a wire cutter.. It's good that it's there for the very odd occasion.. It sounds tiring to unlock the plier everytime you cut something... :think:
Post by: Zed on January 31, 2018, 03:36:40 PM
Post by: Vidar on January 31, 2018, 04:18:03 PM
Regardless of my personal view on certain models I do appreciate that they try out new concepts and go out on a limb now and then. That is how truly new stuff comes to life. That risky new territory is shared by both the greatest successes and the most horrible failures - for truly new stuff it is just very hard to tell up front.
Of course that doesn't exclude also doing steady improvements of the current product lines, and to me it seems like Leatherman is doing some of both. To me the offbeat directions and diversions are signs that they at least try to combat the settled in staleness that often hits companies as they grow large.
There are still lots and lots of possibilities within the multitool domain and on so many levels. The next few years will be very interesting. :cheers:
Post by: stugumby on February 12, 2018, 11:25:32 PM