Multitool.org Forum
Tool Talk => Swiss Army Knights Forum => Topic started by: jazzbass on September 06, 2019, 11:56:44 PM
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OK, so beautiful day today + work at home + slow day + new knife = picture time.
I recently got a new knife in my collection, something I've been looking for for a while. It's a post war Spartan with mother-of-pearl like celluloid scales. These early celluloid scales are hard to find in good condition because the plastic itself is fairly unstable and tends to deteriorate over time. I got a great deal on a like-new knife and couldn't resist. I started looking across my collection and I *think* I now have most of the major scale variations for the 84mm and 91mm lines. So I took a picture (click here for bigger image) (https://i.imgur.com/IDUMOXV.jpg):
(https://i.imgur.com/IDUMOXV.jpg)
So this is far from being minutely comprehensive, but I thought it'd be a good overview of the major scale variations for officer's knives.
- Original hand cut fiber scales on a pre-1910 Climber. Hand cut Victorinox logo and 4 steel pins.
- Later machine cut fiber scales on a mid 1930s Spartan. Die cut logo and 3 nickel-silver pins
- Aluminum scales on a mid 1930s Climber. I doubt these are anodized so calling them "alox" is a misnomer. Not unusual in these days to make an order with AL scales since most everything was still hand assembled. Interestingly still has the visible #4 pin, despite fiber scale versions making it hidden well before.
- Buffalo horn scales on a late 1930s Spartan. This is from the era of the early transition to celluloid (not cellidor) scales. These early celluloid scales are really pretty terrible (see below), so not surprisingly most of the survivors from this era are horn scales like this because they stand the test of time much, much better. These scales are absolutely gorgeous when highly polished with an interesting pattern in the horn.
- Early celluloid scales on an early 1940s carbon steel Spartan. These early celluloid scales are just terrible. The plastic, nitrocellulose was flammable and liked to shrink and deteriorate over time. You can see on this knife the way the celluloid has shrunk and pulled away from the pins. Lots of instruments at the time (early Fender guitars for example) had the same problem - nitrocellulose pick guards would shrink and disintegrate.
- Early cellidor scales on a mid 1940s Spartan. The early celluloid scales only lasted a couple years before Victorninox switched to the much better cellidor plastic. Not flammable and not prone to shrinking, this new scale plastic was 1000x better than the celluloid. Early exposed rivet knives use a fairly pliable formulation as they don't need a lot of rigidity to stay stuck to the knife. Some batches of early cellidor are known to have out-gassing deterioration problems. This manifests itself differently than the shrinking of the celluloid; cellidor scales with out-gassing issues don't shrink but will tarnish the NS in the knife, rust the stainless steel (!), and crack up and turn powdery.
- Mother of pearl on a mid 1940s Tourist. MOP is beautiful - the depth of color in it and everything is amazing. It's also super brittle, a pain to work with, and like to crack (like this one). The stress on the #3 pin tended to crack the early models where the rivets were exposed. Later MOP models got the scales glued on top of the rivets and they tend to fair a lot better.
- Celluloid on a late 1940s Spartan. In the guitar building world we used to call this "mother of toilet seat". It was an attempt to make a MOP looking scale using the much-easier-to-work celluloid plastic. It got a lot of use in the 1950s in bathroom fixtures, hence the nickname. Interesting but not a attractive as MOP (in my opinion), these knives are interesting because it's tough to find a survivor in good condition. Being celluloid, they tend to suffer the same fate as the early 1940s celluloid scales.
- Stag horn on a 1950s Huntsman. A very traditional scale material, I have to admit it's definitely my least favorite. It just always looks dirty. Yuck.
- Early blue cellidor on a 1960 Fischermesser. This is one of the earliest attempts at a colored scale. There are some blue cellidor small Huntsman Small LNF knives from the late 1940s, but their rarity suggests that plastic manufacturer was having problems getting the formulation correct. By 1960 they seems to have worked out the bugs - almost. Probably about 20% of the blue Fishermesser and other blue scaled knives have the same problems with out-gassing and deterioration as the early red cellidor knives from the 1940s.
- Dark red cellidor on a 1960 Victoria Spartan. This cellidor formulation is quite brittle and stiff, enough so that Victorinox could do away with the time-consuming exposed rivets and switch to scales that they could affix post assembly. Much stiffer than the earlier cellidor that needed to be held on by exposed rivets and even stiffer than the later stuff use to this day, these scales are quite likely to break in large pieces when removed.
- Bright red cellidor on a 1960 Elinox Spartan. The cellidor formulation used on the early Elinox knives is a different formulation than used on the Victoria knives. Brighter in color and a lot less stiff/brittle, this formulation also suffers from out-gassing problems like the blue cellidor from the same time (about 20%). It would be safe to assume that it was used on the Elinox line because it was cheaper.
- New formula cellidor on a 1972 Huntsman. These new formula scales appear right around 1970 - they seem to show up exactly the same time the bail is dropped from the Victoria line. They suck compared to the old dark red cellidor. A brighter red, my suspicion is they are more like the 1960s Elinox cellidor formula (i.e. cheaper), albeit without the out-gassing issues. Still with nickel-silver inlays. The big thing with these early 1970s scales is they like to warp and peel up at the toothpick and tweezers end.
- Bright red ABS on a mid 1970s Elinox Camper. For a couple years in the early 1970s Victorinox switched the Elinox line to ABS scales. While hot stamping was happening in the 1960s on cellidor, it really becomes popular with the 1970s Elinox ABS knives, all of which are hot stamped. In general, these knives are terrible BTW. Pot metal corkscrews, thinner blades, and ABS scales - thankfully they didn't last but for a few years.
- Early attempt SS inlay on a 1976 Grand Prix Jr. Evidence shows that Victorinox wanted to switch from nickel silver to stainless steel for inlays in the early 1970s, but had some issues getting it right. Presumably using the same dies for cutting NS inlays, they tried SS but the inlays ended up looking terrible and wearing out the tooling. The fine detail they could produce in NS just looked terrible in SS. These early SS inlays are non-magneting, implying the use of an austenitic alloy. Later SS inlays use a martenisitic alloy, more similar to the alloy used in the knives themselves
- Econo cellidor on a late 1970s Climber "Economy". By the late 1970s Victorinox kills the now-terrible Elinox line are replacing it with the Economy line. Scales are now seeming the same cellidor as standard models, except the logo is hot stamped. Forged corkscrews are back too!
- Last version NS inlay in cellidor on a 1977 Climber. After the initial failure with SS inlays, Victorinox switches back to NS until they can work out the kinks. The cellidor by now is nice and stable and no longer starts to warp an the end. This is seemingly the formula we get for the next 40 yrs.
- SS inlay on cellidor on a 1989 Mechanic CS. This is the version most people know and love. Tradition red SAK with SS inlay. Additional inlays may be present (Model T, Fish, or Rutli like this one) and the quality of the inlays is quite well done.
- Nylon econ scale on a mid 1990s Practical Craftsman. I've read that nylon scales started in late 1970s on the early GAK designs. Having proved quite rugged, they replaced cellidor on the Officer Knife economy by the mid 1990s and are still used to this day. No inlay possible on nylon so scale decorations are either screen printed, hot stamped, or cast into the plastic itself (like the 108mm line).
- Cellidor scale with watch on a late 1990s Timekeeper. Same as the traditional cellidor, but with a quartz analog watch in it. I love these things and even used a set of these scales on a Yeoman mod as my EDC for years.
- See through nylon + electronics on a late 1990s Timekeeper Alarm. The Timekeeper Alarm is one of the first electronic scale watches, and didn't last very long. The scales for these are the same for the Altimeter, Voyager and Traveler lines, the difference being the internal electronics. The Timekeeper alarm has the same functions as the Voyager lines (time/alarm but no temp/pressure/altitude)
- Translucent ruby scales on a 2009 Swiss Bianco Scientist. IMO Translucent scales look great on shelf queens and terrible on users. Like all cellidor they scratch easily, and the translucent scales show the scratches more than the solid. They look cool when polished though.
- Translucent + screen printing on an American Eagle. Same scales as above but now with Victorinox's new love of screen printing. This is the formula they now use for so many "special editions".
- Wood scales on a 2014 Spartan Damascus. Rosewood was used a lot from the mid 1980s on. White Oak showed up on the Explorer Damascus, which had a lot of issues at the time with instability. Ebony and plum were used on the Climber Damascus and Deluxe Tinker Damascus, respectively.
- Old Silver ribbed alox on a 1960s Voyageur. By far the most popular scale choice for the new 84mm Elinox alox line, the silver alox scales featured a red Elinox shield. These scales tend to show wear a lot less than their red siblings.
- Old Red ribbed alox on a 1960s Voyageur. Not the most popular at the time but by far the most coveted by collectors now, these are the same as the silver ribbed scales expect anodized entirely in red. They show wear quite easily so finding examples in pristine condition can be a challenge.
- Old Smooth advertising scales on a early 1970s Voyageur. The 84mm line was fantastic for advertising because you basically got the entire scale surface to work with. These scales do tend to take damage fairly easily so finding pristine examples can be a challenge. Conversely, because a lot of these were handed out as advertisements (and not purchased for a specific task), a not-insignificant amount ended up in desk drawers and in boxes, never carried.
- New checkered alox on a 2009 Lumberjack The new checkered alox scales replaced the old ribber scales in the 2000s with a design very similar to the 93mm line. Smooth advertising scales are gone with the new versions having a small panel on the back for screen printing. Originally issued in sliver, special run colors became popular when everyone realized that dumb collectors like me would pay way too much money for them.
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Nice collection and writeup!
[It's not failure if you learn something from it]
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I sure enjoyed your write-up. :tu:
Which category would the Camo scales be in, maybe 23? :think:
Some are like screen prints, but some are more like stickers that have a texture like the Black Ice series.
Edit: That #1 SAK is so beautiful! :dd:
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That's excellent info Jazzbass, very interesting! Thank you :hatsoff:
I've got a red cellidor (ss inlay) on a 77-79 climber (traveller) that was warped at the ends :salute:
But who knows why :dunno:
This thread should be a sticky :like:
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Which category would the Camo scales be in, maybe 23? :think:
Some are like screen prints, but some are more like stickers that have a texture like the Black Ice series.
Edit: That #1 SAK is so beautiful! :dd:
Good point - mentally I had them in the "screen print" category but you're right - the wrap/sticker is different enough that I probably should've had it in there. I was running out of room in the frame though ;)
To be fair, you can really slice/dice this down a lot more than what I have here. For example, McStitchy's pic is a great example of early, solid core cellidor scales. Modern scales are way more hollow inside and thus "different". Then there's plus vs standard, pin vs no pin, etc.
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Good point - mentally I had them in the "screen print" category but you're right - the wrap/sticker is different enough that I probably should've had it in there. I was running out of room in the frame though ;)
I started thinking that you've got it covered. The camo is printed or overlaid on one of the variations you listed. :hatsoff:
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So about the scale deterioration mentioned in my first post - take a look at this image (click here for higher res) (https://i.imgur.com/QzSmf8h.jpg). It shows most of the major forms of scale deterioration I know of in the 84mm/91mm lines.
(https://i.imgur.com/QzSmf8h.jpg)
- Spartan c. 1925. These are the original fiber scales which are pretty dimentionally stable. I have many knives from the early 1900s with 4 rivet fiber scales that show no signs of deterioration or degradation. Occasionally you do see knives like this, though, with two main issues - missing emblem and lots of cracks (or both like this). The missing emblem is fairly common as it was just glued into a cut out and just works its way loose after many years of use. The cracks I suspect are a result of excessive moisture exposure - either the knife was kept in a very humid environment or actually submerged in water and not dried properly. The result is the fiber expands when wet and shrinks when it dries, cracking the scale. I believe degradation of fiber scales to be largely a factor of environment and not something within the material itself.
- Tourist, c. 1941. Here we see a VERY common problem with the first plastic scaled knives to come out in the early 1940s. The scales on this knife have shrunk by about 20% in all directions, pulling away from the rivets and crinkling up logo. This plastic I believe (99% sure) is cellulose nitrate (CN, aka Celluloid), one of the first available plastics. By the time this knife was made, CN had been around for about 60 years and was known for two things - being the base for most films and catching on fire. Like deadly fire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Clinic_fire_of_1929). As CN ages it gives of nitric acid and shrinks. The vast majority of knives you see from the early 40s made from CN have some sort of shrinkage to the scales (this knife here being one of the more extreme). Exposure to heat and UV tend to accelerate this process. Interestingly, the nitric acid given off doesn't seem to affect the knife itself - the NS liners and SS blades are fine.
- Camper, c. 1943. This knife and the two Spartans (#4 and #5) are all from the same time period and illustrate issues with the first plastic used after CN. The plastic on this knife I believe to be some formulation of cellulose acetate (CA), a plastic also about as old as CN but with wayyyyy less tendency to burn down buildings and kill people (CA was what they started making the "safety film" of the 1950s from). CA comes in several varieties - plain CA, cellulose diacetate [CDA], cellulose triacetate [CTA], cellulose acetate butyrate [CAB], cellulose acetate propionate [CAP]. I'm not 100% clear which formulation these early CA scales are. Cellidor(tm) is a more modern trade name (1952) for CAB and CAP, and all records show that Victorinox started using the Cellidor-B (CAB) formulation in 1971 (see #9). What the exact formulation was in the 40s is unknown but tests show that it is some from of CA. When CA degrades it gives of acetic acid (i.e. vinegar), and you can see some of the effects of that in this knife. This Camper has mid-level CA degradation - the scales are still dimensionally stable but you can see the inlaid logo has tarnished. This is the acetic acid working away at the NS. The bail as well is a bit off in color in the front (compare the the rear of the knife), indicating degradation is happening on the front scale only at this time.
- Spartan, c. 1943. Also an early CA plastic, this Spartan shows high levels of CA degradation. The logo itself is highly corroded and tarnished, and the scales have started cracking as deteriorating. The bail is also fully corroded. The rear is in even worse shape, breaking down in several areas.
- Spartan, c. 1943. Same knife and production period as #4, this knife is interesting because it shows that the CA deterioration to NOT be endemic of all CA scales (the way it was for CN), but seemingly random within batches. On this knife, the rear scale has undergone severe degradation while the front scale is fine. From the front this looks like a well preserved mid 40s knife - from the back things are terrible. Out gassing of acetic acid on this knife is so bad that the corroded through the bail and rusted the stainless steel main and pen blades (see the black areas on the rear view of the knife).
- Elinox Spartan, c. 1960. Victorinox seems to have worked out this CA issues by 1950 and the formulation they switch to in 1957 on the "Victoria" line with the hidden rivets is very, very stable (I've never seen any degradation of the standard dark red Victoria scales used from 1957-1970). The Elinox line, unfortunately, seems to have gotten a cheaper quality CA plastic (probably a form of CAB) and knives like this are not uncommon. This knife in particular is one of the worst and it shows a lot of the same signs of acetic acid degradation that the mid 40s knives above show. The logo and bail are tarnished, the SS tools are corroded, and the scales are cracking apart. Additionally the dyes in the plastic are leeching out turning the bright red into an orange color. Like with the 1940s CA, this degradation seems to be batch related as the rear scale of this knife is completely fine.
- Fischermesser, c. 1964. While the dark red Victoria scales from the late 50s/60s are excellent, the blue scales are hit and miss. This would imply that the blue plastic at this time is a CAB formulation closer the to CAB of the Elinox scales vs. the CA (?) formula of the Victoria scales. Many, many blue scale knives from the 60s (Fischermesser in particular) show some sort of acetic acid degradation - this knife in particular is on the extreme mild end of the scale (slight tinge of tarnish around the logo). I have had Fischermessers whose scales have completely degraded, rusting the tools and completely crumbing into dust.
- Elinox Spartan, c 1965. This was a custom advertising knife made in the mid 60s for Semperit. It uses the same CAB blue scales as the Fischermesser and shows an extreme form of degradation. The logo is completely tarnished and green, the SS tools have been rusted (the the back shot of the corkscrew and the blades) and the front scales is starting to break down completely.
- Fieldmaster, c. 1972. This is one of the earliest Cellidor brand CAB scales. Victorinox drops the dark red scales of the 60s and moves to these... and they're not really that good. They seem to be a slightly more stable version of the CAB Elinox scales from the 1960s, but these (Cellidor from the early 70s) are known have tarnishing issues around the logo and (more commonly) to pull up at the ends - especially the T&T end. If you look close in this picture you can see the bottom of both the front and rear scales pulling up (even slightly cracking the front scale by the tweezers). Very common for scales of this era. They seem to have worked the formulation out by the mid 70s and by 1980 the scales are extremely stable.
- Cadillac, c 1973. Another example of early 70s CAB. Slight tarnish on the edges of St Christopher and bad warping on the rear scale by the toothpick.
- Motorist scale c. 1968. Scale-only view of a severely degraded Elinox CAB scale. This scale got so bad I removed it from the knife before it destroyed the knife itself. Severe corrosion of the logo and plastic, loss of color in the scale (it's orange) and in the center especially. Keep in mind this scale started out the same color as the Cadillac to its left!
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#10 is on my list to acquire - I have never seen one, or held one in person. It is one of those knives you buy because of the scales! :facepalm:
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That’s an impressive collection! Will glow in the dark counts as a variation or does it fall into one of these variations?
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Very well done jazzbass! :cheers:
Great pics and descriptions of the various scale variations. :like: :tu: :tu:
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Wow! Great info & nice pics! :salute:
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Do you consider the blue alox knives made for the Dutch air force to be a different variaton, or do you discount them for being non-standard?
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Excellent read Jazzbass!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Always learn so much when JB posts :hatsoff:
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This is really great JB - Thanks for taking the time to construct all this.
We spend so much time talking about the tools and the tool evolution - It's really good to see the scales get some air time.
And as always so much knowledge and info to suck up.
BTW. You must be a chemist in your other life - Right? - All this formulation stuff :tu:
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Do you consider the blue alox knives made for the Dutch air force to be a different variaton, or do you discount them for being non-standard?
I consider them to be a proper variation and different from the #3 aluminum scales in the first image since they are anodized and the pre-war aluminum stuff is not. I didn't include it in this shot because I don't have one unfortunately.
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Some more scale variants. First one is original tortoiseshell
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Those are awesome.
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Some more scale variants. First one is original tortoiseshell
Very nice! I like that 2nd one in, the horn :tu:
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I consider them to be a proper variation and different from the #3 aluminum scales in the first image since they are anodized and the pre-war aluminum stuff is not. I didn't include it in this shot because I don't have one unfortunately.
:tu:
Some more scale variants. First one is original tortoiseshell
Oh my, those are really nice. That crossbow logo should be re-introduced! :drool:
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Added this to the SAK ID thread :tu:
https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,75774.msg1630522.html#msg1630522
Thanks JB
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Cool thread! :like: Lots of interesting information here. Thanks!
So about the scale deterioration mentioned in my first post - take a look at this image (click here for higher res) (https://i.imgur.com/QzSmf8h.jpg). It shows most of the major forms of scale deterioration I know of in the 84mm/91mm lines.
In my experience, scale deterioration isn't limited to scales made of synthetic materials. In particular, horn scales often exhibit significant issues as well. One major problem is that they tend to get eaten by bugs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dermestidae) (see http://www.knife-expert.com/bugs036.txt for a nicely written article about this problem). Another common problem is that they tend to develop deformations (shrinking and/or swelling) and cracks. The attached image shows a 1960's Spartan with horn scales exhibiting all of these issues. The holes on the back scale are typical to the damage caused by bugs and the scales also exhibit significant deformations (shrinking in some directions while swelling in others) and some cracks.
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Tiffany series sterling silver scales( not solid to my regret)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190912/56e43ca55a3f033cd32ead564f180f78.jpg)
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Cool thread! :like: Lots of interesting information here. Thanks!
In my experience, scale deterioration isn't limited to scales made of synthetic materials. In particular, horn scales often exhibit significant issues as well.
I agree with you completely. When I saw your post I did a sort of head smack for not including the buffalo horn scales in it, so I'm glad you posted. My original idea was really to just talk about the plastic CN/CA/CAB deterioration, and when I was pulling knives to photograph, I saw the cracked fiber scale Spartan and threw it in almost as an afterthought. None of the horn Spartans in my collection are in bad shape so I didn't even think about it. :-[ That said, I have purchased several horn scaled knives where the scales are in really, really bad shape. Your pictures show the problems with bugs and swelling perfectly.
Now I'm under the impression that the horn scales are a lot like the fiber scale - damage/degredation tends to be environmental vs inherent in the material itself like the early plastics. In other words, if kept in a cool, humidity-controlled, bug-free environment, is there any reason to worry about degradation of horn scales in a collection?
My understanding is that all the oils and protection layers knife guys talk about for horn scales are necessary for knives that see use - out in the elements, humidity, being used, etc. I know I'm hesitant to start putting oils or anything on a 80 yr old horn handled knife. However, I do want to do more research on this because I'm not actively taking any steps to preserve the old horn/stag handle knives in my collection, and now I'm wondering if I should be....
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Tiffany series sterling silver scales( not solid to my regret)
Great picture. I've always wondered about those. Never felt like spending the $1000 that sellers want for an example though.
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Now I'm under the impression that the horn scales are a lot like the fiber scale - damage/degredation tends to be environmental vs inherent in the material itself like the early plastics.
I believe that you are right about horn scales being a lot like fiber scales in this respect, but degradation of plastic scales is likely to depend on the environment as well. To the best of my limited understanding, the process of celluloid decomposition tends to be autocatalytic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocatalysis). Hence, it usually cannot be stopped once started, but the timing of when it starts may depend on the environment. I find the following article quite illuminating: http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/celluloid_02.html
It seems to suggest that environmental conditions may play an important role in the deterioration of early plastic scales as well.
In other words, if kept in a cool, humidity-controlled, bug-free environment, is there any reason to worry about degradation of horn scales in a collection?
I don't know. It's a very interesting question. Particularly, for those of us fortunate enough to be able to produce such an environment. I keep fighting with my wife because of her employing cooking methodologies that involve massive emission of water vapor into our indoor atmosphere. My claims that this may be causing horrific damage to many of my precious objects seem to get limited sympathy from her. I even developed clear preference for rice over pasta because of this. Particularly in the winter. It helps a little. :D
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I love threads like these.
One of the great things about the SAK hobby is that participants can stay in the shallow end of the pool or delve as deeply as they wish. Furthermore, no matter how deep you go there’s always more to be found.
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:like: Very good points all round F :salute:
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Fantastic post and thread. Now I understand why some of these wonderful Swiss Army knives are so rare and difficult to find in good condition! :like:
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Looks like Facebook SAK Collectors like your post JB
https://www.facebook.com/groups/SAKCollectors/permalink/1469807133144083/
Just started dabbling in this group - I see a few links to here - And lots to SAKWiki.
And lots of "Please anyone tell me what this model is?" questions ....... when the answer is awlways in the Wiki :pok: :twak:
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Facebook SAK Collectors
I see a few links to here
I like to refer people to MTo. Lots of topics have been discussed here - no need to do it all again on Facebook :)
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:iagree:
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FolderBeholder posted this thread: https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,82769.0.html that is of significant relevance to the discussion here. This is a great example of cellulose acetate butyrate (CAB) breakdown in early Elinox scales. The acetate is breaking down and producing acetic acid (i.e. vinegar), and that acid is tarnishing the nickel silver inlays on the knife. This is a mild-ish deterioration, and it doesn't look to have damaged the knife too much - yet.
This is an area where collectors of older knives like myself, FB, jnoxyd and other need to learn about plastic conservation. Honestly up until recently I didn't really think much about it and (naively) assumed that these plastics were stable and the ones that I had that were damaged had just lived difficult lives. I've just started doing in depth research on this, but fortunately there is a LOT of information about conservation of antique plastics. Hell, there's even a Wikipedia article on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_and_restoration_of_plastic_objects
I've just started thinking about plastic conservation for my collection, and have a ways to go. What I'm doing right now is:
- Limiting exposure to UV. Esp important for older cellulose nitrate knives from the 40s.
- Maintaining humidity control. Pretty easy for me, as I live in the US and my wife loves AC. RH stays around 50% in my house all year long.
- Limit exposure to water. I used to wash all knives in an ultrasonic bath when I got them, because if you've purchased many knives from eBay you'll know - many of them are disgustingly dirty. For modern knives it's not a problem, but anything 1975 and before I need to find a new way to clean.
- Limit exposure to high temps. The other part of my old cleaning process was water warmed to 120-130F. This was nice because the temps really helped loosen up all the grime in the knives. Turns out it also was probably the main factor in setting of autocatalytic reactions in several of my knives. Since it doesn't happen immediatly, I had no idea I was damaging the knife. But the results are pretty clear - a 50 yr old CAB knife I buy has minor tarnishing, I clean it with hot water, and 2 years later the scales are all but destroyed and the tools are rusty.
- Separate "problem" knives from the rest of the collection. Any knives experiencing obvious signs of breakdown (tarnishing emblems, cracking scales, etc) are being moved away from the main part of the collection and placed somewhere with good ventilation. These so-called "malignant plastics" will apparently destroy other collection items with their nitric acid/acetic acid out gassing if left in proximity.
That's just a start, though. I have several things I want to do in the next couple months:
- Find new methods to clean new additions to the collection without damaging them or setting off autocatalytic reactions
- Install fans to actively ventilate the main part of the collection. My knives are stored in drawers, so I'm thinking some sort of computer fan setup on the back of the cabinet to pull fresh air into the drawers.
- Install A-D strips to monitor acid levels in the environment. More info here: https://www.imagepermanenceinstitute.org/imaging/ad-strips
- Install humidity monitoring/notification sensors in the collection. You can build a wireless, low power temp/humidity sensor node from parts on Amazon for < $10.
- Look at moving certain knives (older CN scaled knives in particular) into some sort of lower temp storage. Indications are that lower temps helps slow the CN break down significantly.
More information for the curious:
- Cellulose Plastics at Getty Conservation Institute (https://www.getty.edu/conservation/our_projects/science/plastics/cellulose.html)
- Canada.gov - Caring for Plastics and Rubbers (https://www.canada.ca/en/conservation-institute/services/preventive-conservation/guidelines-collections/caring-plastics-rubbers.html#a36)
- Conservation and restoration of plastic objects (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_and_restoration_of_plastic_objects)
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Great article JB !!! :salute: But now I see a picture of a strange SAK on the net,As shown in the pictures, it has a screwdriver,I think it should be produced before the 1920s through its tang stamp.But the question is, did Celluloid already exist in that era?So this is a SAK that makes me confused. Who can help me solve this mystery,thank you!!!
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Looking at the scales and the tools (scissors especially), my guess is that this is a knife from the 20s/30s that was repaired in the late 40s. The scissors look a lot newer than the rest of the knife, and there’s no cut out above the corkscrew that was on the fiber scales and all early cellidor scales as well. Or it is a more modern repair using parts from a late 40s donor knife.
Repairs like this with tools from different eras are fairly common - esp in the 84mm line where there’s not the big change in parts and pin spacing in 1951.
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Looking at the scales and the tools (scissors especially), my guess is that this is a knife from the 20s/30s that was repaired in the late 40s. The scissors look a lot newer than the rest of the knife, and there’s no cut out above the corkscrew that was on the fiber scales and all early cellidor scales as well. Or it is a more modern repair using parts from a late 40s donor knife.
Repairs like this with tools from different eras are fairly common - esp in the 84mm line where there’s not the big change in parts and pin spacing in 1951.
thank you very much JB! Did that kind of screwdriver last until the 1930s?
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Isn’t this style of scale shield ~1951+?
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Isn’t this style of scale shield ~1951+?
Yes, I just saw some inconsistencies, but some details are not analyzed in place. Thank you and JB :salute:
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What about flat screwdriver and bottle opener:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200321/97368f3406f50688a072021c683badc2.jpg)
Sorry for the bad picture, I haven’t this knife, just picture.
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What about flat screwdriver and bottle opener:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200321/97368f3406f50688a072021c683badc2.jpg)
Sorry for the bad picture, I haven’t this knife, just picture.
Fantastic!
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JAZZBASS :clap: :hatsoff:
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Wow, what a knife jnoxyd!
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How about this one?
(https://vicfan.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/elinox.jpg)
BLACK cellidor scales on a 1960s (?) Elinox knife. I think black scales were quite uncommon back then. I've never seen any other color than red and blue. Blue only twice, on knives owned by jnoxyd and Jazzbass :) (apart from the Fisherman's knives obviously).
The photo is 7.5 years old. I've never taken the time to investigate that SAK any further.
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:like: :cheers:
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I just noticed that one of my 74mm SAKs with celluloid tortoise scales is showing signs of deterioration. There is an oily, funny smelling residue on the scales. No shrinking though.
Interestingly enough I have an almost identical SAK that seems to be just fine.
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I just want to bump this thread back up again.
There's so much to appreciate (excellent photos) and so much to digest (detailed observations), that it deserves another look. :hatsoff: :salute:
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13. New formula cellidor on a 1972 Huntsman. These new formula scales appear right around 1970 - they seem to show up exactly the same time the bail is dropped from the Victoria line. They suck compared to the old dark red cellidor. A brighter red, my suspicion is they are more like the 1960s Elinox cellidor formula (i.e. cheaper), albeit without the out-gassing issues. Still with nickel-silver inlays. The big thing with these early 1970s scales is they like to warp and peel up at the toothpick and tweezers end.
‘72 with a 4-loop CS? Doesn’t sound right to me.
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%u201872 with a 4-loop CS? Doesn%u2019t sound right to me.
Oh, lord. This was just a quick thing I put together real quick because it was a nice day for photographs. IIRC what happened was this: the original picture had a 72 w/ 5 turn corkscrew in it. When I went to post I didn't like the way the knife was crooked in the shot and recomposed. In doing so I decided to swap out for what I think is a 74 Huntsman as it showed more of the "scale peel" of these era scales (NB: IRL the 74 peel is way worse than the 72. In camera it's hard to tell the difference). Swapped it out and forgot to update the text apparently. Mea culpa.
Gotta be honest, responses like this are why I don't share much here anymore. The "Vintage Knife" thread long stopped being about collectors showing off cool old knives and has become "Kamakiri corrects everyone on everything" - typically in a way that reads to me as dismissive and condescending.
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Wow. Soooooorry.
I guess some of us are above being corrected. ::)
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Wow. Soooooorry.
I guess some of us are above being corrected. ::)
And you think this kind of a reply is helpful? ::)
Please, guys and gals, try to remain civil and respectful to each other. We already lost quite a few very knowledgeable members to the grim reaper and such unnecessary quarrels, and with each one this board dies a bit more. And I and many others invested much too much of ourselves into this board helping others to learn on SAKs too go through this again.
No one is above error, and there are different ways to communicate these, the tone, the words, ... Choose them wisely, read your post prior to posting and try to think how you would feel if someone spoke like this to you.
None of us know everything and we still learn from each other, and do so here, on the forum, through other members. So show respect to people who shared their knowledge so you and others could know the stuff you know now.
:salute:
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None of us know everything and we still learn from each other, and do so here, on the forum, through other members. So show respect to people who shared their knowledge so you and others could know the stuff you know now.
:salute:
Thank you for writing this because I really appreciate everyone on this forum for all of their knowledge. So much still yet to learn.
I don't want to see anyone put off by posts that they decide to spend their time elsewhere. I speak for myself when I say I need and want you all to stay.
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Please, guys and gals, try to remain civil and respectful to each other. We already lost quite a few very knowledgeable members to the grim reaper and such unnecessary quarrels, and with each one this board dies a bit more. And I and many others invested much too much of ourselves into this board helping others to learn on SAKs too go through this again.
No one is above error, and there are different ways to communicate these, the tone, the words, ... Choose them wisely, read your post prior to posting and try to think how you would feel if someone spoke like this to you.
None of us know everything and we still learn from each other, and do so here, on the forum, through other members. So show respect to people who shared their knowledge so you and others could know the stuff you know now.
:salute:
:iagree:
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:iagree: I really appreciate all the tips, pointers and knowledge to be found here.
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Oh no, Jazzbass, don't leave Vintage SAK Owners Club please! We all love this place and I cannot imagine it without your posts. Make Vintage SAK Owners Club looking cool again! I will show some interesting knives soon but for now 100+ years old pictures from Elsener (unfortunately not mine).
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And you think this kind of a reply is helpful? ::)
How else does one reply to being accused of being “dismissive and condescending” by someone who apologizes with a “mea culpa”?
Seriously, I don’t see what the big deal is with my post before that.
But I hear the underlying message loud and clear. :salute:
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Hey guys, everyone has a different manner of communication, knowledge of the language (or google translate skills ;) ) , education (technical or humanitarian), interests in collecting sak, etc. I suggest you treat each other with respect and tolerance! Personally, I do not mind that Kamakiri corrects me, only I am not always ready to solve his riddles :think: By the way, Kamakiri, that's a good name for your personal thread "Riddles from Kamakiri", come on, I'm participating.
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Hey guys, everyone has a different manner of communication, knowledge of the language (or google translate skills ;) ) , education (technical or humanitarian), interests in collecting sak, etc. I suggest you treat each other with respect and tolerance! Personally, I do not mind that Kamakiri corrects me, only I am not always ready to solve his riddles :think: By the way, Kamakiri, that's a good name for your personal thread "Riddles from Kamakiri", come on, I'm participating.
Well I think you are correct on several counts. And I do think people have varying tolerances to everything...including my ‘guessing games’. If the mods agree, I would be open to moving all posts from the Vintage thread about the 1973 knives and moving them all to a new thread titled “1973?”
Honesty, my question about the ‘72 Huntsman was sincere. Maybe it was something I didn’t know or understand. If my intent was to irritate or anger or correct for the sake of correcting, I would have pointed out the thing I think is likely a simple error or even a typo: The Rütli knife is 1991 and not 1989 as posted.
My apologies to ALL for the drama and irritation.
My apologies to jazzbass for detracting from his thread. I will be more mindful before posting any more corrections.
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Oh no, Jazzbass, don't leave Vintage SAK Owners Club please! We all love this place and I cannot imagine it without your posts. Make Vintage SAK Owners Club looking cool again! I will show some interesting knives soon but for now 100+ years old pictures from Elsener (unfortunately not mine).
That's right. I think this post is the most wonderful one in the forum, Jazzbass shares a lot of exciting and interesting knowledge,I look forward to more :climber:
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My apologies to ALL for the drama and irritation.
My apologies to jazzbass for detracting from his thread. I will be more mindful before posting any more corrections.
Very much appreciated. You ALL bring a lot to the table and ANYONE of you will be missed if you didn't contribute to this thread or any thread where YOUR vast knowledge is needed and very much appreciated.
Being mindful is something we can all strive to be better at.
Lets get back to the amazing pictures and information. I swear my SAK CRED has ranked off the charts reading thru these type threads exponentially. I've got miles and miles to go yet so keep posting and keep the information and lively conversations flowing albeit mindfully as KAMIKURI mentions.
So what's next? :popcorn:
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Very much appreciated. You ALL bring a lot to the table and ANYONE of you will be missed if you didn't contribute to this thread or any thread where YOUR vast knowledge is needed and very much appreciated.
Being mindful is something we can all strive to be better at.
:iagree:
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:iagree: Seconded! :tu:
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...If the mods agree, I would be open to moving all posts from the Vintage thread about the 1973 knives and moving them all to a new thread titled %u201C1973?%u201D
...
We don't generally do that, as that kind of mangels the natural flow of the thread, and the posts had replies that would also have to be moved, and then there would be a gap in conversations which is all unnecessary.
We don't mind duplication here on MTO. I think it's a better option to simply post the info in the new thread, copy and paste if you will, or add additional info if you want and have it all in one easy to find and sort through place/thread. Considering how many ignore and spam/nonsense threads we have, a new thread with educational information that was however already posted somewhere else really isn't a problem ;)
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We don't generally do that, as that kind of mangels the natural flow of the thread, and the posts had replies that would also have to be moved, and then there would be a gap in conversations which is all unnecessary.
We don't mind duplication here on MTO. I think it's a better option to simply post the info in the new thread, copy and paste if you will, or add additional info if you want and have it all in one easy to find and sort through place/thread. Considering how many ignore and spam/nonsense threads we have, a new thread with educational information that was however already posted somewhere else really isn't a problem ;)
I get that. And thanks for addressing my suggestion. I used to be a moderator on another site, and made the suggestion as only 4 members would need to have posts transferred. And it would remain a pretty clean break from what I can tell. I meant more as to remove the discussion from that thread. But not a big deal to me where it is and none of it needs duplication. I’d just as well start another thread with other knife examples.
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The attached image shows a model 1234U SAK that was repaired by Victorinox, earlier this month, and then sold online along with the associated paperwork (it's not my knife). As can be seen, the repair involved the replacement of a broken main blade. What I find interesting for this thread is the fact they did this repair without being bothered (or so it seems) by the discoloration of the front scale. Since they have been known to replace better looking scales, I suspect that at least part of the reason for keeping this scale is that they no longer have readily available replacements for such big awl SAKs. Still, they must consider this scale as being somehow fully functional, namely, consider the discoloration as being something that is purely aesthetic. In light of the potential connection between discoloration and disintegration, I can't help wondering what they really know about it and if they do something to stabilize such scales.
P.S. Another interesting aspect of this repair is that it shows their current protocol for replacing knife blades with 2.7mm shanks. They seem to be out of 2.7mm blades, but still have 2.4mm blades (that they stopped using on new SAKs in 2004), so they use those. The problem is, as was explained by JazzBass (https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,40768.msg652135.html#msg652135) many years ago, that one cannot simply install a 2.4mm blade on a 2.7mm spring and get a properly working knife. So, what do they do in order to install a 2.4mm blade without replacing the spring and the corkscrew? They replace the external liner adjacent to the main blade by a post-2004 liner that has the stamped "half-moon" bulge. That bulge was designed to compensate for reducing the main blade shank from 2.4mm to 2.0mm (on SAKs with 2.4mm springs) and it seems to also work nicely to compensate for installing 2.4mm blades on SAKs with 2.7mm springs. (The fit on such a repaired SAK that I happen to have is quite perfect, so I suspect that they give the liner a small squeeze to reduce the compensation from 0.4mm to 0.3mm.)
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Just curious what happened with this knife and what original color was? Not mine, pics from auction.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210326/1b9da620b56c0a9079c2c710ed7d0166.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210326/478adbe54292c82647b9743a24b742b8.jpg)
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Ouch
Can't help though with the question -
Is it mother of pearl? Look like a chemical of some sort got it
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Just curious what happened with this knife and what original color was? Not mine, pics from auction.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210326/1b9da620b56c0a9079c2c710ed7d0166.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210326/478adbe54292c82647b9743a24b742b8.jpg)
Looks like plastic-based imitation of mother-of-pearl. These early plastics often became brittle, fragile, etc.
I don't know what, possibly due to uv radiation, chemical effects ... :think: :dunno:
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Here's a scale variation that I cannot seem to find a reference to.
It's an '86-92 Ranger with Cellidor scales with no TT, with a printed federal Swiss shield on the reverse side of the SAK. The top scale is blank.
Has anyone else see this scale configuration before?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51319933924_c004b441d4_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51320221320_efbf8d1123_b.jpg)
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.
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Here's a scale variation that I cannot seem to find a reference to.
It's an '86-92 Ranger with Cellidor scales with no TT, with a printed federal Swiss shield on the reverse side of the SAK. The top scale is blank.
Has anyone else see this scale configuration before?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51319933924_c004b441d4_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51320221320_efbf8d1123_b.jpg)
Max, you know a lot more about SAKs than I do, but to my new-to-the-hobby eyes it looks like it was meant to have a corporate logo imprinted on it, but that didn't happen for some reason. QC failure on the production line? Seems that all the corporate logo'd SAKs I've seen have the shield on the corkscrew scale.
So it could be a one-off anomaly. You could be holding a truly unique, one-of-a-kind, but still Victorinox produced SAK. :ahhh
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Very nice SAK Max - It is in great condition, l love the blue and a great model - Is it yours? Obtained via an auction etc.
Seems like a pretty good theory SteveP.
Is it also an 'Economy' version ie the printed Swiss shield not the Vic logo - Not sure what else would make it 'economy' - No tp and tw too of course.
I guess there were ecomony branded models too - Although I had a quick flick through the custom scales catalogue we recently uploaded and that option was not there - although that particular catalogue is much more recent!
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Hi guys, it is indeed my own, but came from a local auction so I don't know the history. I like the theory that it's a corporate branded model that may have not been done as I have seen a couple of branded examples online with the standard shield on the reverse scale, and this particular seller has a lot of branded SAKs.
.
First time kamakiri is lost for words :)
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First time kamakiri is lost for words :)
:whistle:
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Here's a scale variation that I cannot seem to find a reference to.
It's an '86-92 Ranger with Cellidor scales...
I've just seen a similar Climber in a Spanish second-hand site. This one has UN Peacekeeping logo in front scale
I upload a couple of pics here. Not sure if I can post here a sale link: forum rules, I mean
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Thanks pitquim :hatsoff: This supports the view that I have an advertising SAK that was either not printed or had the printing removed (no visible trace). Glad the mystery is solved. :tu:
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You know, that blue is so attractive, I wonder if someone snagged this one off the production line before it could be logo'd? (Versus an actual quality control problem during production.)