I like 1095 just like the next knife person. I have a few wonderful 1095 knives that are quite a joy to use. Heat treat aside, is anyone else thinking some prices are just not reasonable, $150 upwards :dunno:.
1095 is wonderful. A custom will cost and would be well worth it to whomever order one. I was mostly being vague for curiosity sake. A 1095 production fixed blade at 150 and above in the 5 inch blade size used for say camping :think:
I like 1095 just like the next knife person. I have a few wonderful 1095 knives that are quite a joy to use. Heat treat aside, is anyone else thinking some prices are just not reasonable, $150 upwards :dunno:.You'll pay more for a custom 1095 but i think you are buying the custom. Not the steel, so what ever the market will bear.
Who's charging a premium for 1095 steel? I have some folders made with 1095 that some might consider expensive. It is the craftsmanship and materials that make them expensive not the 1095 steel. :)
Fair point, Sak-six-oh.I agree totally :tu:
(https://i.imgur.com/zzRWjJs.png)
This feels more like a knife that should be in the US $60-$80 price range. Sure, it has some historical importance and an iconic relevance, but it is basically a modified butcher's knife with couple of scales.
Back in the day, this knife would have cost an astonishing $5. But that was then. I don't think my pockets are deep enough to hand over $120 for a fairly crude and unrefined knife (As said by a big Kephart fan.).
One examle:
I would think the new BK62 is overpriced for thin stock and a couple of wood scales. One seller says msrp of $182 selling for $136.
Yes very slightly tapered tang but currently at the sale price that would be a $190 AUD knife without shipping.
Fair point, Sak-six-oh.I agree totally :tu:
(https://i.imgur.com/zzRWjJs.png)
This feels more like a knife that should be in the US $60-$80 price range. Sure, it has some historical importance and an iconic relevance, but it is basically a modified butcher's knife with couple of scales.
Back in the day, this knife would have cost an astonishing $5. But that was then. I don't think my pockets are deep enough to hand over $120 for a fairly crude and unrefined knife (As said by a big Kephart fan.).
There's a guy with a Youtube channel doing some testing that will change your mind completely.....
I love 1095, it's a steel that almost defines steel, just iron and carbon.
Simple fact is we're mostly talking about production knives, and the information emerging seems to point out that many of these super steels we're paying through the nose for are not heat treated to maximize that potential performance.
Thus, properly heat treated, 1095 could be on the heels of these super steels.
I love 1095, it's a steel that almost defines steel, just iron and carbon.
There's a guy with a Youtube channel doing some testing that will change your mind completely.....
I love 1095, it's a steel that almost defines steel, just iron and carbon.
Simple fact is we're mostly talking about production knives, and the information emerging seems to point out that many of these super steels we're paying through the nose for are not heat treated to maximize that potential performance.
Thus, properly heat treated, 1095 could be on the heels of these super steels.
There's a guy with a Youtube channel doing some testing that will change your mind completely.....
I love 1095, it's a steel that almost defines steel, just iron and carbon.
Simple fact is we're mostly talking about production knives, and the information emerging seems to point out that many of these super steels we're paying through the nose for are not heat treated to maximize that potential performance.
Thus, properly heat treated, 1095 could be on the heels of these super steels.
To that I say Smurf Poop. Sounds like a man with an agenda not a man looking for facts.
Mostly I would not pay any attention to some guy on you tube.
There's the guy who does a lot of testing but admits he's not the best sharpener. That alone makes his results meaningless.
There's the guy that can't seem to stay sober thru a 20 min. video.
There's the guy that thinks he has to chop in all his tests. Good chopping and good edge retention are two entirely different things.
A lot of manufactures run a steel soft by design GEC's 1095 is - 57-59 HRC., Kabar Mark 1 – is 56-58 HRC. Very different knives designed with very different uses in mind.
The old saying goes “there is no bad steel just the wrong steel for the job”. To that I would add there is also a wrong steel for the user. If you're happy sharpening with a natural stone CPM S90V is a bad steel choice. If you want the better edge retention, 1085CV aka CV is bad steel choice.
As far as heat treat goes “you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear”.
Case heat treats their 420HC to 54-56 HRC, Buck heat treats their 420HC to 58 HRC. Neither can hold an edge as well as GEC's 1095 at 57-59 HRC.
The difference in Case 420HC and Buck 420HC might be 30%.
Heat treat makes a difference but it can not work miracles on steel. If two blades have the same profile and good heat treat, blade alloy wins the edge retention game. Every time.
Both heat treat and geometry being optimal, the concept that 1095 edge retention can compete with some of the so called super steels is just wrong.
Steel is a compromise at best. I know I can cut 120 feet of cardboard with a 1095 GEC, 220 feet with Queens D2 and easily cut 500 plus feet with S90V.
What I gain in edge retention with S90V, I loose in toughness. If for some reason I would want to chop with a S90V blade, it's to brittle and will chip or break. 1095 is much better suited to such tasks. If I want a stainless knife with most of the qualitys of 1095, I'll pick A2.
1095 is a good steel and has stood the test of time it is not a cheap steel. 1095 is an inexpensive steel, it's easy to manufacture and easy to work with.
For those reasons alone I would not pay a premium for it.
There's a guy with a Youtube channel doing some testing that will change your mind completely.....
I love 1095, it's a steel that almost defines steel, just iron and carbon.
Simple fact is we're mostly talking about production knives, and the information emerging seems to point out that many of these super steels we're paying through the nose for are not heat treated to maximize that potential performance.
Thus, properly heat treated, 1095 could be on the heels of these super steels.
To that I say Smurf Poop. Sounds like a man with an agenda not a man looking for facts.
Mostly I would not pay any attention to some guy on you tube.
There's the guy who does a lot of testing but admits he's not the best sharpener. That alone makes his results meaningless.
There's the guy that can't seem to stay sober thru a 20 min. video.
There's the guy that thinks he has to chop in all his tests. Good chopping and good edge retention are two entirely different things.
A lot of manufactures run a steel soft by design GEC's 1095 is - 57-59 HRC., Kabar Mark 1 – is 56-58 HRC. Very different knives designed with very different uses in mind.
The old saying goes “there is no bad steel just the wrong steel for the job”. To that I would add there is also a wrong steel for the user. If you're happy sharpening with a natural stone CPM S90V is a bad steel choice. If you want the better edge retention, 1085CV aka CV is bad steel choice.
As far as heat treat goes “you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear”.
Case heat treats their 420HC to 54-56 HRC, Buck heat treats their 420HC to 58 HRC. Neither can hold an edge as well as GEC's 1095 at 57-59 HRC.
The difference in Case 420HC and Buck 420HC might be 30%.
Heat treat makes a difference but it can not work miracles on steel. If two blades have the same profile and good heat treat, blade alloy wins the edge retention game. Every time.
Both heat treat and geometry being optimal, the concept that 1095 edge retention can compete with some of the so called super steels is just wrong.
Steel is a compromise at best. I know I can cut 120 feet of cardboard with a 1095 GEC, 220 feet with Queens D2 and easily cut 500 plus feet with S90V.
What I gain in edge retention with S90V, I loose in toughness. If for some reason I would want to chop with a S90V blade, it's to brittle and will chip or break. 1095 is much better suited to such tasks. If I want a stainless knife with most of the qualitys of 1095, I'll pick A2.
1095 is a good steel and has stood the test of time it is not a cheap steel. 1095 is an inexpensive steel, it's easy to manufacture and easy to work with.
For those reasons alone I would not pay a premium for it.
There's the guy that can't seem to stay sober thru a 20 min. video.
I don't think A2 is a stainless steel.Technically it's not stainless but compared to 1095cv which has .40 to .60, chromium, A2 has 4.75 to 5.50. Kind of a brain fart on my part because I looking at a LT Wright Maverick Scout. :dd:
I do like A2, and have a couple knives made with it. But it's just a tool steel. Seems like it would be nice to work with, since it is an air-hardening steel.
There's the guy that can't seem to stay sober thru a 20 min. video.
I suspect we're talking about this guy. Personally, as a part-time knife maker, I really appreciate his contribution to the knowledge base. Though it doesn't bother me, but I do wish he could get out his message without getting a bug up the smurf of people like you.
The point I'm trying to make is you need to differentiate between custom and production knives. Steve has joked that Spyderco will send a hitman after him, and as a sprintrun owner I'm not exactly happy to find out they're not getting the most all the steel they use.
Knowing that 12C27 with a good heat treat can play with the big boys makes me so happy, because I just finished two knives and I have a whole sheet of 14C28n left, and a digital kiln to get the most out of it.
So, is 3V a potentially better steel than 1095?
Yes.
Are you sure that 3V you are paying a premium for is heat treated to maximize it's capabilities?
If not, you could do just as well, or better with 1095.
Go check how cheap knife steel is, it's all about labour, material costs come into the picture once you start using Damasteel, even here in deepest darkest africa I can get M390 for the same price as 14C28n, which is about double the price of same size stock D2 or N690
I saw a AUS-8 vs D2 test and according to the tester D2's edge retention wasn't much better than AUS-8. That made me question his results, so I did my own test. I used two Rat 2's one D2 and one AUS-8. Both sharpened on a KME with at 17° and a 20° micro bevel. I taped the blade and only used 1.5” of the blade. Straight push cuts thru new cardboard onto a mouse pad to insure no extra blade damage.
The AUS-8 would no longer cleanly cut paper at 120 feet. The D2 went 220 Feet before it would no longer cleanly cut paper.
That's almost double and showed me the testers method was severely flawed.
I saw a AUS-8 vs D2 test and according to the tester D2's edge retention wasn't much better than AUS-8. That made me question his results, so I did my own test. I used two Rat 2's one D2 and one AUS-8. Both sharpened on a KME with at 17° and a 20° micro bevel. I taped the blade and only used 1.5” of the blade. Straight push cuts thru new cardboard onto a mouse pad to insure no extra blade damage.
The AUS-8 would no longer cleanly cut paper at 120 feet. The D2 went 220 Feet before it would no longer cleanly cut paper.
That's almost double and showed me the testers method was severely flawed.
My own experience leads me to agree with your conclusions, Dean.
However, your testing doesn't really take into account how the Rat's were heat-treated either. Perhaps ESEE did a better job with the D2 heat-treat, than they did with with AUS-8?
One can start chasing his or her own tail with these sorts of things.
I've found that some steels, especially well established steels like 1095 and 154CM, work well for many manufacturers. In general I've had good luck with S3V blades, too.
I think it pays to stick with good makers who take their heat treats seriously. I can understand a maker not wanting to reveal his or her heat treat process, especially if that maker feels they have optimized the treatment for a particular knife & steel. Fehrman used to do some amazing things with S3V. We are lucky that in this day and age, a maker's reputation and ability becomes well known, fairly quickly.
LT Wright has a great reputation for a well made knife. I wouldn't hesitate to pick up an S3V knife from him. Although, I find 154CM to be such a great all-around steel, I think that would be an excellent choice, too. :tu:
Heat treat can not make AUS8 perform way out of it's class. It will never be the equal to D2 or S90V. for that to happen the heat treat would have to be worse than bad.
Heat treat can not make AUS8 perform way out of it's class. It will never be the equal to D2 or S90V. for that to happen the heat treat would have to be worse than bad.
:rofl: :iagree:
As an aside, I recently got my first knife in S90V, a Spydie Manix 2. So far I like it, but I haven't used it much. I'll be interest to see how it is to sharpen....once it needs it.
I like sharpening.
One of the reasons I don't get hung up on a particular steel (aside from a bit of a steel-crush on 154CM... :dd:) is that I enjoy the sharpening process and keeping a knife sharp. 1095 (with a good heat treat, yes) sharpens easily and well. It takes a great edge. And that makes it fun to work with and use.
Conversely, steels like Maxamet seem almost ridiculous to work with. Which steel would I rather own/use? Probably a nice 1095 blade. It's something I know I can keep razor sharp.
I don't go cutting tough materials for hours on end. I don't need a knife that can whittle a tree into a toothpick. I'll be home sharpening before that happens. So a tough steel that takes a great edge, but doesn't have the ultimate wear-resistance, is actually more of a 'premium steel' for me. I'm sure that one day a Maxamet blade will find it's way into my pocket, but if all I ever use from now until the big sleep is a 1095 knife, I think I'd still be a happy man.
:cheers:
On a traditional knife I would be happy with 154CM, it's an excellent steel for those knives. It's just almost impossible to find 154CM in a traditional.
I like 1095 just like the next knife person. I have a few wonderful 1095 knives that are quite a joy to use. Heat treat aside, is anyone else thinking some prices are just not reasonable, $150 upwards :dunno:.
I don't think with GEC, 1095 is the premium you are paying for.I like 1095 just like the next knife person. I have a few wonderful 1095 knives that are quite a joy to use. Heat treat aside, is anyone else thinking some prices are just not reasonable, $150 upwards :dunno:.
Lame to quote myself I know :facepalm:. I should have been more specific but I was hoping to create some discussion to see where the knife people in this community land. I purposefully left heat treat out because each maker will deal with that in a personal way. Some treat softer while others go all out. We know that geometry is important as well. The purpose of the knife and other factors.
I wasn't looking at was pitting 1095 against another steel. I was vague unfortunately, but my post was that I was not willing to pay up for 1095 ( price is very relative I know ). I do feel price however it affects ones personal buying potential/threshold is part of the consideration when talking 1095. We all have a threshold when considering any purchase.
Whether a maker gets the most of of their steel is a great conversation. What I can say is that my knives in 1095 are wonderful as mentioned in my opening post. Can't say enough good about the steel. I dont know if the maker got all they could from it :dunno:. What I do know is my Ontario Knife Co DPx HEST is a really think blade. I re beveled it from a very wide edge ( 30 degree per side? ) to just about 22 degrees per side. Its hair shaving sharp and only needs a strop to bring the edge back. I use it to cut air hose, hard plastic, bags of mulch, I scraped my garage floor of some adhesive, and a variety of other things.
I've seen some conversations about testing done on certain channels. I don't get to involved on either side.
The example you gave "Many GEC's would be a great example of paying a premium for a tiny piece of 1095........"
is a good example for me personally for a knife with 1095 I would not pay up for. I was looking at the Moose and even at 100 bucks felt it was too much. Call me cheap :whistle:. I'd pay up for D2 tho in that Moose :D
How does he not cut himself the way he opens knives :oHe must have some thick skin on his thumb!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF2hUZze1_A
One of these days there will be some red in a video. :ahhhHow does he not cut himself the way he opens knives :oHe must have some thick skin on his thumb!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF2hUZze1_A
Sent fra min FRD-L09 via Tapatalk
I'd pay up for D2 tho in that Moose :D
I don't think with GEC, 1095 is the premium you are paying for.
When I was looking at GEC and Maserin Sod busters recently. The GEC 1095, with micarta handles was $66.50 and the Maserin D2 with Micarta handles was $51.32.
GEC and traditionals in general require a lot of hand fitting, There is a lot of hand fitting required on a pinned knife, add to that GEC is using a lot of the same equipment that was in use 70 years ago.
Maserin relies much more on precision parts that can be screwed together and shipped.
I think with GEC you are paying for the hand fit tradition of a pocket knife.
I've seen some "testing" with D2 that came up poor. It was suggested the heat treat was the issue. I've also seen it perform very well as compared to 1095. As mentioned a few times in this thread heat treat is super important. I dont worry too much about issued related to carbon steels. Patina is fine and well I tend to take pretty good care of things that have any potential for "issues".
So you should try a D2 knife if you get the chance! :tu:
Aw man. No on the D2? I have no experience with it. I have seen some pretty good videos on the Rat in D2.
I'm a big fan of D2. With the right heat treat, it is a very nice steel. It takes a great edge and has very good edge retention. Knife Maker Bob Dozier popularized D2 here in the states in his fixed blade knives: hunter's really valued the edge holding ability when dressing out large game.I had an issue once with D2 and micro chips but it was sharpened to 16 degrees per side. When i changed it to 18 degrees per side the chipping stopped. I've read else where that D2 doesn't like acute edge angles. All I really know is I've had no more trouble with chipping.
Some people complain that it is hard to sharpen, but I haven't found that to be the case. Another complaint is that it can stain and rust. Again, I haven't found that to be a big issue.
One thing I have seen with D2 is chipping. This might be a heat treat issue. I also understand that CPM-D2 has finer carbides and is less prone to chipping. D2 isn't a great choice for a hard -use survival knife, as far as I'm concerned.
Of course, if you are out hunting and have your D2 hunting knife with you......I guess it might become your survival knife. :tu:
I've got a Spyderco Paramilitary in D2. Lovely knife, and no issues chipping, even with that fine tip. :tu:
Ouch
SAK's have a can opener on them. :whistle:
I should thank you then. :salute:Ouch
SAK's have a can opener on them. :whistle:
I was doing some testing with this one. In the current Fixie challenge.
Awl in the name of knife science.......
Discussion is not possible with people that are not willing to listen, learn, and heaven forbid admit they were wrong and change their minds......
Guys like Pete at C&A outdoors and Supersteel Steve have even made videos where they address their critics.
I don't get involved in the mess that is youtube comments, but considering the criticisms they address in the videos it would seem many carry the same opinions as expressed here.
I'm a developing knife maker, I want to learn and I do not have the time, knives or opportunity to repeat these tests, so I deeply appreciate what they're doing.
I'm not willing to disregard a whole body of evidence because a few values in a spreadsheet were entered wrong, mistake admitted and corrected.
I fully support their attempts at doing real world testing within limits.....which they both freely admit.
I understand Pete's sarcasm......
I understand Steve's into............
Closer to home, my mentor tuned his Elmax chopper till it could go through just about everything, including nails hidden in tar poles.....
If you think a production knife can compete with what a dedicated maker can get from the same steel, I say good luck......
Nothing against ESEE, but I wonder if any of their knives have ever done the ABS journeyman test?
Price cannot be determined by the steel type, remember that very expensive damascus blade is just 1070 or 1080 combined with 15N20, both those are poorer cousins (as far as % carbon is concerned) to 1095 and cheaper still........
Many GEC's would be a great example of paying a premium for a tiny piece of 1095........
I've never seen "Super Steve", so my following comments are nothing to do with him, really.Your testing would be more relevant to you.
I'd just like to point out that I mostly freehand sharpen. I do have an Edgepro, but that doesn't see much use.
Since I'm a freehand sharpener, it might be the case that someone who tests knives with a freehand edge is more relevant to me. Testing where the edge has been rigorously sharpened on a machine is not so relevant, for me, though such testing is still interesting.
The controlled sharpening systems create a different edge. I prefer a freehand edge, with tends to be slightly convexed. Therefore, testing that is reflective of my sharpening-style may really be more relevant to me.
:tu:
With freehand you get a convex edge that can vary, angles can not be held consistent. Even with two identical knives you could get two results.
When testing two steels that are close that variable will throw off the results.
:nothingtoadd:Welcome :)
As far as Super Steel Steve is concerned, I appreciate the fact that he free-hand sharpens, that said his free-hand is better that mine and most people's Lansky efforts.
FYI he's now testing till the knife no longer shaves, then carries on till it no longer slices paper.
The Lansky can be "improved" but it certainly has its quirks. I only use it to set the bevel then use strops to keep the edge. If damage does occur then back to the Lansky or Whet Stones if I feel they would be "easier".
Cedric admits he is not a good sharpener but still publishes data. That's just wrong.
Cedric admits he is not a good sharpener but still publishes data. That's just wrong.
By all means, explain the logic of that statement to me..... :think:
Pete is now referring to his testing as bro-science.
Steve gives his answer at the start of every video.
I'm surprised at all the nit-picks and the preference of no data and ignorance over admittedly less than perfect data......
I've learned so much watching these videos I can only be thankful.
I do have a question tho, is there anyone doing actual testing using methods that would be considered proper?
I appreciate the work done by all testers. I sure am not going to do it so glad someone is. Information gathered by any of these testers and I'll lump in reviewers are all fine. I'll have to check out the other guy as I do like to hear a variety of thoughts on any topic.
I finally got around to watching SS and his testing. As I said earlier, I do enjoy these testers and the data they produce is interesting. I'll watch the video thanks. I have to admit I learned a thing or two about how far to take an edge with certain steels. I don't have said steels however it was enlightening. I know even amongst the knife community sharpening is highly debatable topic. Hats off to those who go thru the trouble to do the testing. They are certainly setting themselves up for a lot of critique.
Thanks Steve. So a quick internet search means that this knife would be 185ish in todays market. Interesting.
I think Dean is going to be especially missed any time a question about steel comes up :-\
I sometimes think we, as a society, have become lost when it comes to the art of conversation and respectful disagreement.
I feel I'm just in the beginning of understanding the whole thing about knifes and steels.
:tu: what's worked for you is what's best. There are a lot of wonderful steels available for knife makers. Some folks just like having the latest materials. 1095 is tried and true and loved by many including myself. Technology has helped dialing the heat treatment really getting everything out of it. I'm still learning and enjoy trying different steels.
I'm not sure if there's a thread like that Jim.
But this is at least a nice list with a brief description to each steel...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_blade_materials#Stainless_steel (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_blade_materials#Stainless_steel)
https://knifesteelnerds.com/categories/
That should entertain you for a few hours
https://knifesteelnerds.com/categories/
That should entertain you for a few hours
https://knifesteelnerds.com/categories/
That should entertain you for a few hours