Multitool.org Forum
Outdoor Section => Outdoor Tech => Topic started by: Lynn LeFey on April 04, 2013, 05:56:44 AM
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IT started with that crappy rambo survival knife everyone got in the 80s, but it continues to this very day... survival kits, and I'm talking 72 hour kits, that people build, and put fishing gear and snare crap in.
Right, so you've got to survive 72 hours in an emergency... and you decide FISHING is the best way to get food? I mean, I know it's a radical idea and all, but... why not JUST TAKE FOOD?!?!?! Stick in a stupid can of almonds, or a jar of peanut butter!
I know, I know... A very basic fishing kit doesn't weigh much and can extend the food you have with you and blah, blah, blah. Doesn't matter. Sick, sick to DEATH, of seeing people cramming fishing gear in survival kits. It's stupid. It's like people who stick a ferro rod in a survival kit before sticking in a lighter. Sure, ferro rods are great, as a backup to a lighter, which is only about 50 times easier to use.
I'm probably gonna get flac for this. Don't care. I'm SICK of fishing gear in 72-hour kits. And next up on 'Lynn Gripes'... Tactical Folders. :D
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I agree for a short term 72 hour kit, but fishing gear definitely goes in my wilderness survival kit.
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Right! In a Wilderness Survival Kit, and one meant for an indefinite term, fishing kits are a GREAT idea.
NOT in 72-hour kits.
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People seem to get paranoid when it comes to "being prepared". I think there are many reasons for this however I'm not going to discuss them now. Call me ignorant but I don't really know what 72-hour kits are, though I think I get the picture. One thing about fishing gear is you can use it to "fish" birds as well :pok: . A rose-tree thorn makes a great hook for this job.
And next up on 'Lynn Gripes'... Tactical Folders. :D
Looking forward to that. Most "tactical" folders I see amuse me and I enjoy reading your posts, usually I agree with your view point and you're quite eloquent. :popcorn:
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Another aspect is that people always seem to think they'll be in the woods when the SHTF. If I'm going out hiking or wild camping it's more likely to be on open moorlands. with the nearest tree in the middle distance, and the nearest thing to set alight to keep you warm will be your own fear induced farts if you haven't gone prepared.
Don't take shelter building equipment .... take a bloody shelter for the same weight penalty! Bushcrafting is a different kettle of fish, as is woodland camping .... but then it's not SURVIVAL.
Survival is when you are somewhere where there isn't all the resources around you, and something has gone wrong which scuppers everything. Maybe you have a broken branch in your thigh and are squirting red stuff everywhere, or maybe you have slipped and knocked your head and already woken up disoriented, cold and wet. Ready to start felling trees and building shelters are you? Don't think so!
If you have gone out prepared whilst hiking, then you might have an unplanned camping trip .... if you've not gone prepared and something goes badly wrong, then it's survival time
</rant>
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i love this thread, i could have written it all myself so far :think:
please someone explain to me the importance of a ferro rod ??? i've only ever tried (with mixed results) to light fires with one in the comfort of my garden. not sure i'd fancy needing a fire cos i was wet and cold then doing it :whistle:
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In total agreement thus far :salute:
I think there's a lot of bandwagons being jumped on around this subject at the moment, and people may not have thought through any of the reality or have an in depth understand of what would really keep them alive. Being in a city, any fish I pull out of a local canal or park, will probably kill me anyway ::)
Ah well, it will be a sorting process.... I shall be in my warm sleeping bag with my jar of peanut butter! Hopefully this is not a taste which zombies will acquire :D
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i love this thread, i could have written it all myself so far :think:
please someone explain to me the importance of a ferro rod ??? i've only ever tried (with mixed results) to light fires with one in the comfort of my garden. not sure i'd fancy needing a fire cos i was wet and cold then doing it :whistle:
Clipper lighter for me, but I admit I do tend to have an Exotac Firestarter to hand if in the outdoors. One good things ferro rods ARE good for, is lighting Trangia stoves. A lot easier and safer than matches and lighters
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I'm probably gonna get flac for this. Don't care. I'm SICK of fishing gear in 72-hour kits. And next up on 'Lynn Gripes'... Tactical Folders. :D
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Goodie! I'm enjoying this!
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Rambo - Self sewing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7S4BULc-p0#noexternalembed-ws)
This is what the fishing kit is for! :rofl:
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don't start with the 'Rambo hate' !
if it wasn't for him i wouldn't be the man i am :rant:
(nor would Bear Grylls, i'd bet)
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Being in a city, any fish I pull out of a local canal or park, will probably kill me anyway ::)
This is another fair point. I think pulling a fish out of the Mississippi River here would be only marginally better for you than pulling one from the Ganges River
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don't start with the 'Rambo hate' !
if it wasn't for him i wouldn't be the man i am :rant:
(nor would Bear Grylls, i'd bet)
Don't take it wrong! I love Rambo too! :salute:
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i'm playing a devil's advocate maybe, BUT
for the size and weight of a few hooks i'd include them in a kit. fishing line (or something that could be used as such would be handy for lots of other things).
catching Birds with fishing hooks ??? not very humane but probably easier than catching fish. and safer to eat.
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You could make a mini bolas for catching mice :P
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Being in a city, any fish I pull out of a local canal or park, will probably kill me anyway ::)
This is another fair point. I think pulling a fish out of the Mississippi River here would be only marginally better for you than pulling one from the Ganges River
Same here for Lake Ontario which is a half hour away, or the Erie canal which is about a five minute walk away. There are types of fish from lake Ontario that the state says at most you should eat one a year. I think I'll just not eat any of those fish instead of injesting whatever toxins are in it that I have to wait a year to eat another one. Also, there are nuclear powerplants on Lake Ontario fairly close to me so in a SHTF scenario radioactive waste might be a problem with the water.
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99.999% of survival kits will never be used anyway. Their raison d'être is merely psychologic, either as anxiety reducers or back to nature fantasies enhancers for us, miserable urban prisoners. So, one should add whatever alleviates his stress feelins. Fishing is relaxing, fantasizing fishing is relaxing too. Unless one hates fish odor. :think:
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RE: Ferro rods.
Let me say that whilst ice climbing, due to the very low temperatures and relatively high winds, lighters and matches were completely useless to light the stove. A ferro rod and small bar of magnesium (shaved a bit) led to rapid lighting and subsequent eating of hot food.
Also, one really doesn't have to worry about rain or running out of fuel with a ferro rod either.
Yes, I've have very good success with ferro rods.
RE: Fishing line.
Very useful stuff, especially when NOT fishing. Extremely good strength to weight ratio and can even be used for suturing when you slip up using your survival axe and plant it in your hand or foot.
However, for 72 hours? Water purifier, something to hold water in, rain poncho-y thing (Large plastic bag even) and a jumbo bag of skittles will get you through with no problems.
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i rarely find myself 'ice climbing' (certainly not unexpectedly) so i'd rather have a lighter in MY kit.
and when you are 'ice climbing' what do you light ?
ferros are great for lighting stoves granted :tu: (as said by 50'-trad earlier)
in MY 'survival kit' i'd go for a couple of easy light, guaranteed fires over 10000 possible sparks any day.
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i rarely find myself 'ice climbing' (certainly not unexpectedly) so i'd rather have a lighter in MY kit.
and when you are 'ice climbing' what do you light ?
ferros are great for lighting stoves granted :tu: (as said by 50'-trad earlier)
in MY 'survival kit' i'd go for a couple of easy light, guaranteed fires over 10000 possible sparks any day.
I've lit an alcohol burner (ultralight trips) and a wood burning stove while out climbing. My point is, if it's raining like stink, your lighter isn't going to be highly effective. My ferro rod and magnesium slivers will still light.
Using the ferro rod/Mg takes maybe 3-5 minutes more time and can be done with heavy gloves on. Not so doable with a lighter.
Not all "Survival" settings will take place on bluebird summer days...
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i'm not being deliberately argumental, please don't think me so even if i sound it. I AM VERY INTERESTED in your view/knowledge
my issue with ferro rods is that while they do trump lighters/matches for weather resistance, in the wet stuff what you are trying to light tends to be damp.
i have lit fires with a ferro, but i suck at it and if the tinder is moist i'm scr**ed
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i'm not being deliberately argumental, please don't think me so even if i sound it. I AM VERY INTERESTED in your view/knowledge
my issue with ferro rods is that while they do trump lighters/matches for weather resistance, in the wet stuff what you are trying to light tends to be damp.
i have lit fires with a ferro, but i suck at it and if the tinder is moist i'm scr**ed
So here's the deal:
The magnesium slivers ARE your tinder. No need for moss or slivering up wood or whatever. Shave off a little pile of magnesium into SMALL dry kindling (split open sticks if everything is really wet) and put the Mg in a pile on the small kindling and light. It's about practice really. Although I've never tried lighting Mg with a lighter... :think:
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i have tried to light magnesium with a lighter, as i remember it's not that easy (needs to be Very hot i think :think:)
i'd pack a mag block yes, just not a 'firesteel' thingy that all the bushcrafty types rave about.
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i have tried to light magnesium with a lighter, as i remember it's not that easy (needs to be Very hot i think :think:)
i'd pack a mag block yes, just not a 'firesteel' thingy that all the bushcrafty types rave about.
The sparks off the Ferro rods must be every hot because they will light the Mg very readily. Ferro Rod/Mg is the most failsafe way to start a fire, imo (except for road flares! >:D)
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sorry Lynn, i've hijacked your thread a bit here :whistle:
thanks Mr Whippy, for your input. i do appreciate the info.
i'm putting together a 'fire starting kit' at the mo so any advice is welcome. i'm torn between the ''small and always on me'' kit and ''dear god , i don't have any eyebrows left but at least i'm warm''
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oh and it needs to be as fool proof as possible, there always seems to be an idiot about when i do things :think:
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oh and it needs to be as fool proof as possible, there always seems to be an idiot about when i do things :think:
Pack a wrench and some steel wool.
Just snatch someone's car battery and short it across the steel wool: You'll get a fire. >:D
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Not a hijack at all. :salute:
I mentioned ferros in the first post, and, Mr. Whippy, take note, I didn't say they were a bad idea. They're not. They're a GREAT idea... AFTER you stick a lighter in. I have only failed getting a fire started maybe twice with a lighter, and on one of those occasions, even ferro/Magnesium AND Fire Ribbon failed. That was because any available fuel was soaked.
Taxi Dad. Mr. Whippy is right about the Ferro/Magnesium being a good (and light) option. But I feel adamant in saying it shouldn't be the first option. Lighters are cheap, incredibly reliable, and even when out of fuel will still throw sparks with one-handed operation. Magnesuim will burn crazy hot, and catch a great deal of tinder alight, but in my experience, burns FAST. I've had best luck with just a lighter and cotton balls either with a bit of petrolium jelly or some parafin wax melted in. I prefer the parafin because it's less messy. Store either variety in a film canister. Starting a fore is all about giving your tinder/kindling a chance to ignite, to build upon. The cotton fluff catches readily, and adding petrolium jelly or parafin extends burn time into the 2 to 3 minute range, which is usually PLENTY of time to get a little teepee of matchsized stick (and larger) going.
YMMV
Mr. Whippy, when I think of convenient portable fire-starting kits, a car battery is such a no-brainer that I forgot to even mention it. :rofl: I'm pretty sure that both Survivorman and Dual Survival have shown this method.
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these look 'handy' :pok:
http://www.firepuck.com/
can't find anywhere to get them here though :(
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RE: wet conditions.
I'm sure I've told this before BUT:
When I was a boy scout, our troop foolishly decided to camp in the coastal mountains of Oregon in mid October. Anybody familiar with the area knows that at that time of year, it just rains. All. The. Time.
We hiked in to camp around 9 pm, and it was already dark and wet, as were we. After messing around with splitting logs to find dry wood for a while our troop leader, a retired railroad man, said, "Pile up as much wood as you can easily find. I'll be back in a bit". He hiked back to his truck, took a few railroad flares from his toolbox and hiked back.
One strike, jammed it in the base of the pile of wood and about 10 minutes later we had a roaring bonfire. :gimme:
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Copying from Magnesium.com:
Dry magnesium powder, chips, granules, and turnings should be stored in tightly sealed, non-combustible containers such as steel drums that are well separated from other combustible materials. The use of automatic sprinklers in those areas should be prohibited.
Wet magnesium turnings, fines, or sludge should be kept under water in a covered and vented non-combustible container and stored outdoors. When damp magnesium is exposed to air, it will generate heat which accelerates the evaporation and will eventually result in ignition. Containers should never be stacked, and ignition sources should be kept away from the vent.
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Oh, the omnipresent fishing kit, here's another factoid: Let's say you have a survival situation in the subarctic forest, which is a common scenario for those kits, with plenty of lakes and streams brimming with non-radioactive, non-mercury-laden fish. Let's say you're in a state where you can fish. Good idea, right? Nope, the Swedish army did experiments where some recruits fished and some gathered edible plants, and so on. Basically, even in the best case scenario for a kit including hooks "and stuff"... you should go gather edible lichen instead. That's the best time/effort vs calories gathered.
So, pretty much the only type of survival kit the fishing equipment really makes sense is in a life raft?
I've always said the best survival equipment I know of is a good pair of boots and a rain coat... Seems there are quite a lof of us who will wait out the zombie apocalypse in our sleeping bags munching on peanut butter and chocolate. Heh... I can picture it... :D
(Oh, and btw, I'm too lazy to check the exact numbers, but the sparks off a ferro rod are very much hotter than a lighter flame. Something like 3500 ºC for the burning ferrocerium vs 2000 ºC from the burning bhutane. In addition, the heat will be exhanged very much more efficiently from the burning ferrocerium "tinders". To ignite magnesium you have to burn through the magnesium oxide on the surface, which is the reason a very hot flame is easier to use.)
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I couldn't catch fish with my bag of lure and fancy rod and reel, so I certainly hold no hope that I'll ever catch anything at all with a length of thread and a hook lol.
Don't think I'll even get a fishing license this year.
The sparks off the Ferro rods must be every hot because they will light the Mg very readily. Ferro Rod/Mg is the most failsafe way to start a fire, imo (except for road flares! >:D)
Have you tried misch metal ferro rod? You can shave them too to work like tinder, and when they burn they REALLY burn. (you can shave regular ferro rod like magnesium block for tinder too, but much more difficult)
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all true mate :tu:
fishing IS hard enough WITH all the right 'kit' , but a few hooks are so small and lightweight why not pack them? it's worth a try and might work. or you can try for other quarry (birds/rats etc) it would give you something to do in a 'long term' survival situation.
and back to Ferro rods, yes i've tried all the tricks, some with more success than others but i still think there is more practical ways of fire lighting. Or to put it another way, you CAN start a fire rubbing sticks together (a great skill to learn if you have the time) but why would you want to rely on that method ?
i think the two issues are the same in some ways, neither is going to be as easy in a survival situation as they are on paper. I wouldn't want my life to Depend on either.
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all true mate :tu:
fishing IS hard enough WITH all the right 'kit' , but a few hooks are so small and lightweight why not pack them? it's worth a try and might work. or you can try for other quarry (birds/rats etc) it would give you something to do in a 'long term' survival situation.
and back to Ferro rods, yes i've tried all the tricks, some with more success than others but i still think there is more practical ways of fire lighting. Or to put it another way, you CAN start a fire rubbing sticks together (a great skill to learn if you have the time) but why would you want torelyon that method ?
i think the two issues are the same in some ways, neither is going to be as easy in a survival situation as they are on paper. I wouldn't want my life to Depend on either.
I've seen Taxi Dad fishing and he's a pro!! here's a pic to prove it!! :D
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That fellow doesn't look all that happy...you sure that isn't you fishing Grumpy? :rofl: :rofl:
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That fellow doesn't look all that happy...you sure that isn't you fishing Grumpy? :rofl: :rofl:
:megaslap: :rofl: :rofl:
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I keep lighters and fero/magnesium, I also keep a fishing kit. It's not what you think though. I keep a soda bottle preform with hooks, swivels, a bobber, and small eye hooks. I don't need line as I always have something better. Paracord! Ten million uses and counting. But for a 72hr kit, It would be, a space blanket, condom for water, purification tabs, and a couple high protein bars
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hahaha and I thought there were pictures of fishing in the thread. I was reading the thread and there are good points I didn't really think of until now. In my experience I've only used the fishing kit in my little camping pack twice. Once when I ripped a side of a tent where I straightened the fishhook a bit and used fishing line as thread, the next one was when I used the fishing hook and line tied to a tactical pen and used it as a grappling hook to get mangoes from a tree (too tired to climb)... I guess it's got a lot more uses that what it it was originally designed for. As for ferro rods...they've always worked for me, but the Magnesium bars are a hit or miss...unless you consistently use the DOAN magnesium bars
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Why have I not seen this before. It wasn't even buried?
As for me, and a 73 hour kit, I will DEFINITELY have a fishing kit. I live WAY too close to salt and freshwater sources that are plenty bountiful with fish.
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I didn't mean to put 73 hour, but I kinda like it more anyways.
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Personally, an outdoor 'survival' kit is collection of tools that could serve my survival priorities, and it is not to be confused with a 'bushcraft' or 'wilderness skill/living' kit or my camping stuff.
In survival mode, all there is for me is to conserve calories until I could get rescued. Food source is definitely one of my lowest survival priority, and if I ran out of food(from my camping/hiking stuff), and already find ways to serve other priorities(meaning out-of-harms-way, shelter, fire, water, ready to signal...etc) Then I would consider using the fishing lines/hooks to catch food if applicable(because it doesn't requires as much skill and calories as hunting or trapping).
On that matter, sometimes not eating is a better option than eating minimum of food in survival situation:
http://masterwoodsman.com/2014/edible-wild-plants-survival/
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On that matter, sometimes not eating is a better option than eating minimum of food in survival situation:
http://masterwoodsman.com/2014/edible-wild-plants-survival/
Now that is fascinating......
This past weekend was a turning point after struggling nearly 2 weeks with a stomach bug.
I had no energy, when I did manage to eat if felt like the food flashed through my body without touching side and leaving me flat.
I've always struggled with my stomach, and I can't help but think getting in the state I was in would be a killer in a survival situation....
I don't believe I've even gone 48 hours without food EVER, and even in this desert country first and most important is water, and most water will contain fish.
Don't really understand the wild plants vs fish argument because (locally) the most effort would be finding some bug to use as bait and from there it's passive fishing.
Since I mentioned bugs, those would be very high on my browse list. :gimme:
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Wow, major necro.
Double wow, I didn't comment on this when it was fresh.
I've had a two headed theory for years about this. First part, it's there because when urban dwellers started going into the woods and wanting a survival kit, there was Brad Angier, Col. Townsend and lots and lots of military surplus manuals that were largely for pilots who flew over water. Since all the military kits had fish hooks, ipso facto, all survival kits should have fish hooks. Without hooks, it isn't a real kit.
The other theory is if people go looking for fish, they find water. And if they are trying to catch fish, they are mostly sticking in one place except when they go for firewood. And if you stay put near a nice big open area, you are easier to find.
That being said, I keep a couple of hooks in most of my kits including my EDC. Ever gone fishing for car keys in a storm drain? Somewhere you have an organizer with space to tape a couple of them down, along with a few sewing needles.
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I love fishing. And I love to eat the fish I catch if the water is fairly clean.
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I guess, that if you find yourself in a situation where you are stuck near water, and your best option is to stay put, throwing a few hooks out with bait and check on them every now and then might be a good idea. It makes you feel that you are doing something to improve on your situation, boosting morale while waiting.
And you might actually get a fish :D
Also I can think of a few alternate uses for fish hooks: Like using them to hang up markers for search and rescue (a hooked object hanging over a track or from a three is very eye cathching) or to mark your own camp to make it easier to find for your self.