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Tool Talk => Gerber Tools => Topic started by: gav on May 05, 2017, 11:40:03 PM

Title: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: gav on May 05, 2017, 11:40:03 PM
has anyone found an alternative carbide cutter to the overpriced gerber ones?
ive searched the web and may have something.i have them ordered from ebay and when i get them and if they work i'll post pics.
what i can tell you is the product no.is
TCMT 110204 CARBIDE CUTTER
the size of these ones match the gerber ones.i paid 8 euros for a set of ten.
like i said,when they arrive i'll see if they fit.they should though.
it would cost me 50 euros to get 2 of the original gerber ones on amazon.
keep you posted.

gav.
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: zoidberg on May 06, 2017, 12:58:00 AM
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: gav on May 06, 2017, 01:44:12 AM
just to add to it,carbide cutters are not designed to work in pliers.they cant crush objects,like say nails or steel pins,theyre too hard and brittle.they break.but theyre cheap to mass produce.
gerber could have used 154cm which will last but wheres the after sales money to be made in that.
better to sell a 100 dollar tool and then make lots on it for years to come.
its like car tires,you dont get rid of your car just because your tires go bald.you go buy a new set.
gerber took a chance on carbide cutters years ago knowing that owners of their multis would keep replacing the cutters because they love that particular tool and want to keep it working.
charge a high price for replacement parts and laugh all the way to the bank.
carbide cutter tips,which is what the gerber ones are,are alot cheaper than what gerber charge for their original replacement ones and you can buy them in packs of ten.
they must have made millions on cutters alone over the years.
clever.clever.clever.
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: The Lone Wanderer on May 06, 2017, 03:14:41 AM
Are there any aftermarket steel replacements instead of carbide I wonder?
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: gav on May 06, 2017, 08:16:29 PM
not that i know of or can find anywhere anyway.unless someone whos handy with steel fabricating has done it themselves at home.i am looking into it myself though.it depends on the costing.i cant ask a fella to make a pair.it would have to be 100 min to make it worth anyones while.
it would be nice though.stainless steel cutters on my center drive.that dont split at the sight of two copper wires.
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: chrono on May 06, 2017, 08:26:26 PM
has anyone found an alternative carbide cutter to the overpriced gerber ones?
ive searched the web and may have something.i have them ordered from ebay and when i get them and if they work i'll post pics.
what i can tell you is the product no.is
TCMT 110204 CARBIDE CUTTER
the size of these ones match the gerber ones.i paid 8 euros for a set of ten.
like i said,when they arrive i'll see if they fit.they should though.
it would cost me 50 euros to get 2 of the original gerber ones on amazon.
keep you posted.

gav.

Not sure what the dimensions are of the Gerber's inserts, but you likely just bought the wrong stuff. Those are carbide inserts used in metal working like lathes or mills. I should have caught it right away with the TCMT, as CNC prgramming is my bread and butter. Those inserts are meant to cut by "shaving" material, not by shock impact like scissor cutting. Their edges are not sharp.

Also, those inserts are ISO standard. Each letter and number in the description has its own meaning. In case of TCMT 110204, it has an inscribed circle of 6.35mm (1/4"), 7-degree relief angle, and a counter sink hole. Dimensions of the TCMT 110204 can be found easily, like here: http://www.mitsubishicarbide.net/mhg/enuk/turning_inserts/no_srs/20044850. I think something like the Gerber inserts may have sharper than 7-degree relief angle.
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: gav on May 06, 2017, 08:51:27 PM
i hear ya brother but the ones i bought had the closest measurments to my center drive ones.i know from researching it though that carbide cutter tips are no good in pliers.theyre not designed for it.
this whole rant comes from my own frustration at my own center drive cutters always breaking at simple jobs like changing a household plug or snipping 4mm wide cable ties.i've spent nearly as much on cutters as the tool cost me.these ebay cutters cant be any worse than the gerber ones.can they?
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: chrono on May 06, 2017, 09:00:57 PM
i hear ya brother but the ones i bought had the closest measurments to my center drive ones.i know from researching it though that carbide cutter tips are no good in pliers.theyre not designed for it.
this whole rant comes from my own frustration at my own center drive cutters always breaking at simple jobs like changing a household plug or snipping 4mm wide cable ties.i've spent nearly as much on cutters as the tool cost me.these ebay cutters cant be any worse than the gerber ones.can they?

Theoretically, you can have those Gerber insert resharpened, though you need to find a CNC grind shop to do it properly. Plus it won't come cheap. 
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: gav on May 06, 2017, 09:16:22 PM
getting them resharpened isint the problem.they shatter.
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: zoidberg on May 06, 2017, 09:35:56 PM
i hear ya brother but the ones i bought had the closest measurments to my center drive ones.i know from researching it though that carbide cutter tips are no good in pliers.theyre not designed for it.
this whole rant comes from my own frustration at my own center drive cutters always breaking at simple jobs like changing a household plug or snipping 4mm wide cable ties.i've spent nearly as much on cutters as the tool cost me.these ebay cutters cant be any worse than the gerber ones.can they?

I tried cutting cable ties once, it didn't work but at least they didn't shatter on me.

https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,63712.msg1201288.html#msg1201288
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: cody6268 on May 06, 2017, 10:06:30 PM
Replaceable cutters in general are a bad idea.  Someone made a pair of linesman's pliers with them in the 50's or '60s and they weren't made long.   Just get a Pro Scout or older Gerber that doesn't have them.
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: chrono on May 06, 2017, 11:25:56 PM
getting them resharpened isint the problem.they shatter.

Ok. I thought if the carbide was dull or slightly chipped... Also, after look at Zoid's thread, I am certain the TCMT inserts will not work, as the cutting surface is on the same side where the screw goes into. You have a 97-degree corner on each insert at the cutting area. I have never seen a cutter with an obtuse angle on the cutting blade

Replaceable cutters in general are a bad idea. 

It depends. If the function is only 10% of the cost of the tools, proper design of indexable/ replaceable tools are win/ win for both manufacturers and users. However, carbide should not be used in this cutting manner. Usually, when the hardness goes up, toughness goes down. I am actually interested in how Gerber came up with this brilliant idea  :think: (and got away with it)
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: AimlessWanderer on May 07, 2017, 12:01:10 AM
I've got tooling contacts that could make some in a tool steel, but as pointed out previously in this thread, it's highly unlikely to be cost effective. Even in batches of 100+ it would still be incredibly difficult to produce them efficiently enough to even match the current Gerber pricing
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: vlelet on May 07, 2017, 03:40:54 PM
Economical alternative to the expensive Gerber 48252 carbide cutter replacement.

Gerber REPLACEMENT Tungsten Carbide Cutters 48252
Two tungsten carbide cutter replacements for Multi-Pliers
Hex head wrench
Four replacement screws
$14.24 + $2.61 s&h = $16.85

TCMT 731 Carbide Inserts C6 Grade For 1/4 & 5/16'' Turning Tools 2mm 10mm
10pcs Carbide inserts
$8.75 + $0.99 ePacket delivery from China = $9.74

Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: MusicMen on May 07, 2017, 04:18:55 PM
Economical alternative to the expensive Gerber 48252 carbide cutter replacement.

Gerber REPLACEMENT Tungsten Carbide Cutters 48252
Two tungsten carbide cutter replacements for Multi-Pliers
Hex head wrench
Four replacement screws
$14.24 + $2.61 s&h = $16.85

TCMT 731 Carbide Inserts C6 Grade For 1/4 & 5/16'' Turning Tools 2mm 10mm
10pcs Carbide inserts
$8.75 + $0.99 ePacket delivery from China = $9.74

Do you think they will shatter as easily as the ones from Gerber?
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: vlelet on May 07, 2017, 05:08:46 PM
I don't know if they will shatter as easily as the Gerber 48252 carbide cutters.
When I looked at my Gerber 48252 cutters, they appear to be flat and without angular cutting edge.
Unlike the Leatherman replaceable carbide cutters, the Gerber 48252 does not appear to have beveled cutting edge.
I just looked for similar dimension of the triangle size, center hole size, material of cutter, and lastly the price.
If the TCMT 731 shattered on materials just like the Gerber 48252, its fine with me because they're inexpensive $1.95/pair replacements compared to the $16.85/pair Gerber 48252.
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: zoidberg on May 07, 2017, 09:50:21 PM
Welcome to the forum vlelet.   :cheers:   :cheers:
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: chrono on May 07, 2017, 11:46:08 PM
Economical alternative to the expensive Gerber 48252 carbide cutter replacement.

Gerber REPLACEMENT Tungsten Carbide Cutters 48252
Two tungsten carbide cutter replacements for Multi-Pliers
Hex head wrench
Four replacement screws
$14.24 + $2.61 s&h = $16.85

TCMT 731 Carbide Inserts C6 Grade For 1/4 & 5/16'' Turning Tools 2mm 10mm
10pcs Carbide inserts
$8.75 + $0.99 ePacket delivery from China = $9.74

Oh I see how those inserts are seated in the tool pockets. I was under impression that the one on top would be on the bottom, hence the comment about the obtuse angle. Now the TCMT has those fancy feature called "chip breaker" on the insert face. If you get TCMA insert which has a flat top (no chip breaker), it will has a bit stronger edge than TCMT.  :cheers:
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: vlelet on May 08, 2017, 04:49:27 AM
I'm correcting my previous statement about the Gerber 48252 being flat.
I got curious and took a long look at the 48252 cutter and saw that it is sliding forward and downward to one side which is the cutting side.

Its like the tip of the chisel with the cutting edge sliding forward and down towards the sharp cutting edge.
The 731 is also slightly longer than the 48252.

Comparing with the TCMT 731, it is also slightly angled forward and downward from the flat side to the fancy side.
Does that makes the fancy side the cutting edge of the insert? It's going to make contact first than the shorter side of the cutting edge.
Will it matter if the flat side is placed as the cutting side of the insert?

Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: vlelet on May 09, 2017, 01:26:19 AM
Follow up for anyone interested, I positioned the fancy side of the cutter inside and cut a few pieces from a metal clothes hanger.

1. It was easier to cut the metal clothes hanger when the cutter is positioned with the fancy (longer) side making a scissor action with the other cutter.
2. Also, it is easier to cut the clothes hanger using the rear or middle part of the cutter than the forward part of the cutter.
3. The $1.95/pair carbide cutter got chipped when I cut the hanger using the forward part of the cutter. Imagine if it was the $16.85 Gerber 48252 carbide cutter.

I think that's the benefit of having a inexpensive carbide cutter alternative, it won't hurt my wallet as much as the Gerber 48252 would.

Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: zoidberg on May 09, 2017, 02:34:00 AM
 :cheers:
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: chrono on May 09, 2017, 04:03:06 AM
Not sure if you can find TCMA at the size that may fit your cutter, but the TCMA is stronger at the edge than TCMT. Also, being Chinese made, quality of the carbide may be questionable

(http://i22.ebayimg.com/05/i/08/b2/59/20_35.JPG)
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: Don Pablo on May 09, 2017, 10:07:44 AM
Not sure if you can find TCMA at the size that may fit your cutter, but the TCMA is stronger at the edge than TCMT. Also, being Chinese made, quality of the carbide may be questionable

(http://i22.ebayimg.com/05/i/08/b2/59/20_35.JPG)
Can't see the pic.  :pok:

Also, Questionable?! Because its Chinese?!
What about the iphone oh I see what you mean.  :D :whistle:
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: vlelet on May 10, 2017, 02:07:11 AM
Anyone knows the specs of the screw that goes with the Gerber carbide cutter?
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: vlelet on May 10, 2017, 02:11:44 AM
has anyone found an alternative carbide cutter to the overpriced gerber ones?
ive searched the web and may have something.i have them ordered from ebay and when i get them and if they work i'll post pics.
what i can tell you is the product no.is
TCMT 110204 CARBIDE CUTTER
the size of these ones match the gerber ones.i paid 8 euros for a set of ten.
like i said,when they arrive i'll see if they fit.they should though.
it would cost me 50 euros to get 2 of the original gerber ones on amazon.
keep you posted.

gav.

I wonder if we got the same carbide cutter?
Please post pics soon as you get them installed in your plier.
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: chrono on May 10, 2017, 02:44:55 AM
Not sure if you can find TCMA at the size that may fit your cutter, but the TCMA is stronger at the edge than TCMT. Also, being Chinese made, quality of the carbide may be questionable

(http://i22.ebayimg.com/05/i/08/b2/59/20_35.JPG)
Can't see the pic.  :pok:

Also, Questionable?! Because its Chinese?!
What about the iphone oh I see what you mean.  :D :whistle:

Here, just a eBay picture http://i22.ebayimg.com/05/i/08/b2/59/20_35.JPG
TCMA has "flat top", meaning no fancy chip breaker, just a smooth flat. And I was serious about the crappy Chinese carbide. My workplace only uses American, Japanese, Sweden... made ones. Simple, cheapest ones are over $3, and that is with discount from distributors. It gotta be with the carbide purity, coating... or something.
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: magentus on September 26, 2017, 04:50:32 PM
Just had a carbide cutter fail on me trying to cut some 2.2mm brass rod. Once it shattered my MP400 took over duties and was victorious.

Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: Sam Lim on September 27, 2017, 03:41:18 PM
Alternative you say, this was a cut out from a cheap pair of garden shears. I simply refuse to pay for the price that gerber is asking for the carbide inserts. It's ridiculously expensive and does not work. I swear it works better than carbide. It may ding, but can be sharpened. Just some time needed. And $2 to spare.
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: magentus on September 27, 2017, 04:00:00 PM
Interesting Sam - is there a link to these?  :salute:
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: AimlessWanderer on September 27, 2017, 04:14:36 PM
Just had a carbide cutter fail on me trying to cut some 2.2mm brass rod. Once it shattered my MP400 took over duties and was victorious.

Email them  :pok:

The only way they are going to change things, or offer a suitable tool steel alternative, is if the customer base gets vociferous about it. Numbers matter, and every  :twak: the company gets, adds up to more potential change  :salute:
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: Sam Lim on September 27, 2017, 04:36:05 PM
Interesting Sam - is there a link to these?  :salute:

What I meant is that I cut those 2 pieces out of the blade of the shears. It's bought locally in a shop here.. My locally would be extremely far away from you....

Tbh, if I am able to cut the triangle and a hole in that metal, with simply a hacksaw and power drill, I doubt the hardness of that steel. But it still work way better than the original carbide gerber offers.. That, is how tragic the carbide insert is.. And, it's just $2 here.. It's like 1.4usd...
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: Sam Lim on September 28, 2017, 02:47:23 AM
This is the shears I cut the 2 cutters from.
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: magentus on September 28, 2017, 10:03:13 AM
 :salute: Thanks Sam

50 - I will email them - I'll have to do it on a different pc as my work one won't allow access to 'weapon' sites  :facepalm: (if only they knew how ineffectual these things would be as weapons  :D )
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: rdub934 on September 29, 2017, 04:05:32 AM
I have emailed Gerber a few times regarding the carbide cutters being inferior yet over-priced. I suggested making the same design cutters, just made out of some sort of hardened steel. I have not heard anything back from them. I wonder if MTO could start a petition or something? It would be such a simple fix if they would just do it.

I am happy to see that these "stand-ins" are available and somewhat compatible, though. :tu:
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: vlelet on January 28, 2018, 06:30:05 PM
Anyone knows the specs for the screws that go with those carbide cutters?

Any third party screws that can replace the original ones?
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: swannytheswan on July 15, 2018, 09:34:01 AM
I know this is an old topic but it just helped me with the same issue. I don't know how it will work but I just ordered these as a replacement its not that much cheaper than the gerber ones but it is made out of High Speed steel instead of carbide so it shouldn't shatter as easily. I will update how it works out when I get them. https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1724
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: SteveC on July 15, 2018, 06:24:53 PM
I know this is an old topic but it just helped me with the same issue. I don't know how it will work but I just ordered these as a replacement its not that much cheaper than the gerber ones but it is made out of High Speed steel instead of carbide so it shouldn't shatter as easily. I will update how it works out when I get them. https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1724



Welcome to the forum  :cheers:

:popcorn:
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: ThePeacent on July 15, 2018, 08:49:01 PM
I know this is an old topic but it just helped me with the same issue. I don't know how it will work but I just ordered these as a replacement its not that much cheaper than the gerber ones but it is made out of High Speed steel instead of carbide so it shouldn't shatter as easily. I will update how it works out when I get them. https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1724

Welcome to  :MTO:! And I'm eager to see your results, these cutters form Gerber are  :P  and no point in them having three sides, they'll shatter to pieces making the whole piece useless   :twak:
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: swannytheswan on July 24, 2018, 03:08:59 AM
Alright gentlemen, they have arrived and while I'm not completely happy with them they fit and will probably work for most things I use them for...that said i will probably do some grinding on them to make them work better being HSS it is a better option than the garbage gerber tries to sell you that shatter the first time you use them. All I have tried to cut so far is paper clip which it cut easily and high tensile fence wire which it did not even with regular wire cutters that crap is hard but the failure there is due to the 7 degree angle it just isn't sharp enough. Here are some pics

(http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac326/bswans/20180723_173306.jpg) (http://s912.photobucket.com/user/bswans/media/20180723_173306.jpg.html)

(http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac326/bswans/20180723_172459.jpg) (http://s912.photobucket.com/user/bswans/media/20180723_172459.jpg.html)

(http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac326/bswans/20180723_172532.jpg) (http://s912.photobucket.com/user/bswans/media/20180723_172532.jpg.html)

(http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac326/bswans/20180723_172938.jpg) (http://s912.photobucket.com/user/bswans/media/20180723_172938.jpg.html)

Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: swannytheswan on July 24, 2018, 03:22:11 AM
If I can figure out how to hold them without burning myself I will grind the corners down a bit as the ones near the pivot drag a little bit.


(http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac326/bswans/InkedHSS%20inserts_LI.jpg) (http://s912.photobucket.com/user/bswans/media/InkedHSS%20inserts_LI.jpg.html)


Also I would like the angle increased as they mentioned above the shallower angle is stronger but that was in order to keep Carbide from shattering since these are made out of HSS I believe I could make the angle sharper and get away with it. I tried to find some that were sharper out of of the box but there are so few HSS insert available I was honestly lucky to find ones that fit.

(http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac326/bswans/InkedHSS%20insert%20angle_LI.jpg) (http://s912.photobucket.com/user/bswans/media/InkedHSS%20insert%20angle_LI.jpg.html)
(http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac326/bswans/20180723_173545.jpg) (http://s912.photobucket.com/user/bswans/media/20180723_173545.jpg.html)
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: gregozedobe on July 24, 2018, 04:19:20 AM
If I can figure out how to hold them without burning myself I will grind the corners down a bit as the ones near the pivot drag a little bit.

Sounds like a job for LM Crunch (or any old locking pliers should do the job).  Please remember to wear your safety glasses and make sure the bits are gripped very securely when grinding. Also consider the effect of heat on the hardness of the metal.
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: swannytheswan on July 24, 2018, 04:44:39 AM
If I can figure out how to hold them without burning myself I will grind the corners down a bit as the ones near the pivot drag a little bit.

Sounds like a job for LM Crunch (or any old locking pliers should do the job).  Please remember to wear your safety glasses and make sure the bits are gripped very securely when grinding. Also consider the effect of heat on the hardness of the metal.

Yeah corners wont be to bad but increasing the cutting angle will be to get the angles right and semetrical...HSS stays hard until nearly red hot should be pretty easy to keep it hard
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: ReamerPunch on July 24, 2018, 08:46:27 PM
Welcome to the forum swanny, and thank you so much for sharing. :salute:
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: ReamerPunch on July 24, 2018, 08:50:03 PM
They fit so well, and look great, and although not perfect, still miles better than those Gerber sells.
Why on Earth does Gerber not buy those in bulk, adjust the bevels, and resell them?
Hell, don't adjust the bevels. Just sell them like that, they're still better than the carbide ones.
Title: Re: alternatives to carbide cutters
Post by: GnatSwarm on January 22, 2019, 08:17:27 PM
(Sorry to necro this thread, but I didn’t think this information was worth starting a new thread for.)

I’ve found a potential source for HSS inserts.
https://shop.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/power-tools-accessories/high-speed-steel-cutters/20-degree-relief-thickness-094-radius-0156--sku080001067-61400-126849.aspx?cm_mmc=PPC-_-Itwine-_-Google-_-080-001-067&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjK_j5oX63wIVyx-tBh0jvgLtEAQYAyABEgIKgfD_BwE (https://shop.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/power-tools-accessories/high-speed-steel-cutters/20-degree-relief-thickness-094-radius-0156--sku080001067-61400-126849.aspx?cm_mmc=PPC-_-Itwine-_-Google-_-080-001-067&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjK_j5oX63wIVyx-tBh0jvgLtEAQYAyABEgIKgfD_BwE)

Note: I do not know which of these products, if any, are compatable with the geometry of a Gerber or Leatherman multitool.