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Outdoor Section => The Outdoor and Survival Forum => Topic started by: Lynn LeFey on November 30, 2017, 07:21:48 PM

Title: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Lynn LeFey on November 30, 2017, 07:21:48 PM
I've watched a lot of videos on bug out bags, get home bags, etc. There are things in those videos that make me super crazy. I thought I'd share. Much of this is just for fun. Any preparation is better than nothing, and i'm not trying to crush anyone's feelings here.

And please keep in mind, these comments are concerning '72 hour bags' or thereabouts. Some of the things I'm commenting on are perfectly legitimate in LONG-term kits (what some people call 'I'm Never Coming Home' or INCH bags)

#1 The CRKT Eat'n Tool.
Question: What's the best way to waste your valuable money in survival supplies? Answer: Buy a CRKT Eat'n Tool. Extra bonus, buy one in Titanium.
The weight difference between titanium and stainless steel are extremely negligible at this scale, Most of these stupid things have non polished bowls, so they look like a frickin breeding ground for bacteria, and worst of all, they completely SUCK as spoons, with that short, stupid handle. The extra functions don't make up for the complete suckness of its main function.
Better solution: A stainless steel spoon. Simple. It might cost you all of 10g of extra weight. They cost 25 CENTS at every Goodwill store and are essentially indestructable.

#2 Paracord.
I admit. I carry paracord. For now. It will be replaced soon. What with? Tarred bank line. When was the last time you honestly NEEDED 550lb strength cordage? And if it was 'to haul a car out of a ditch', then you should have had straps for that, not relying on a cordage that stretches. And '7 inner strands can be...' No. Shut up. If you KNOW you're likely to need lighter cordage, BRING lighter cordage. Dental floss, fishing line, silk thread, I don't care what, but something. If you're tearing apart your heavy cordage to get light cordage, you're wasting your time, and space in your pack, and being stupid.
Worse: Firecord. Hey, here's a great idea, let's put flamable crap in our cordage that we need to tear apart to get to! One MORE idiotic thing! Hey, why not just have fireproof stuff... I dunno... NOT in your frickin ROPE!
Better solution: Bank line and a lighter sewing weight/fishing line cord. Combined, they still weigh a LOT less than an equivalent length of paracord.

#3 Fixed blade knives for 'defense'. Okay. So... HOW much training do you have in knife fighting? Have you ever BEEN in a knife fight? Was it fun? Is it something you'd ever want to do again? No? Well, then maybe a swiss army knife with a saw is a better answer, and use it go cut yourself a 4 foot long stick.
Better solution: almost anything. Seriously. A f'ing sock with a rock in it is a better defensive tool. But a long stick would be my choice if avoidance was impossible.

#4 Fixed blade knives for 'batoning'. I wondered long and hard why anyone would ever need to baton. Okay, so you baton a piece of wood to get to the dry center to make firesticks in wet conditions. Great. No. Take something to kindle your fire WITH you. We're talking for a bag with a 3 or so day duration. NOT bushcraft. Shove that bushcraft mentailty up your...
Better solution. Bring more cotton balls dipped in parafin. They weigh less, and are a more certain solution.

#5 improvised shelter supplies.
Better solution: NOT improvised shelter. You know... like a f'ing tent. Maybe don't buy that $300 custom stupid f'ing KNIFE and buy an awesome ultralight TENT instead. And unless they're carrying a hammock, you should REALLY be carrying a ground pad. I personally prefer closed cell foam, just plain old sleeping pad, because there is nothing that can fail on it.

#6 Crank powered anything.
I have a crank powered radio, and have owned two crank powered flashlights. The flashlights were purchased for the purpose of putting in emergency bags, but I wanted to test them first. And... They suck.
I have a cheap one called 'The Charger' I got from a prepper supply company for $10 whose name sounds a bit like 'Emergency Essentials', or exactly like it, and I got an Energizer Weatheready. The Charger weighs 6oz, and the Weatheready 4oz. I can crank wither for about 3 minutes before it becomes extremely uncomfortable. The thing they don't tell you about these is that they are powered by rechargeable batteries, which lose charge over time. They will 'set' in a lower charge state and no longer accept charge if you don't recharge them with some frequency. So, they are not a 'stuff it in the pack and forget about it' solution. The phone charger on the Charger MIGHT work, but after 3 minutes of cranking, it did 0% change to the charge on my phone. What I've heard is half an hour will give you about 5%, but I'm not holding my breath. Regular old flashlights weigh less, including lots of spare batteries. You might have to swap the batteries out every few years, but... you'd have to jerk around with the crank lights anyway. Oh, and the light on the Charger, after not much use at all, is very flakey. Sometimes will, sometimes won't come on.And the Weatheready needs about a minute of cranking for 2 minutes of runtime.
Better solution: bring a little AAA light and spare batteries. An aluminum 2xAAA weighs 2oz with 2 alcaline cells. Each alcaline cell weighs 1/4 oz. Eneloop rechargeables weigh about .4 oz each. So you could bring the aforementioned 2xAAA light, and 8 spare batteries for the weight of the Weatheready, take up less space, and have a light that runs immediately, and a LONG time.
This is one of those times where I got gear, and tested it before cramming it in my bag and assuming it'd be fine.

#7 KniveS (hard stress on the plural)
The next parrot that screams 'Two is one, one is none' is getting it! Shut... the... F***... UP! I get the need for redundancy in gear. Carry a spare. DON'T carry seven. LITERALLY seven. You only got the two hands! What are you doing? Throwing them into lakes? I'd like to say that seven is the MOST knives I've seen in a bag.
better solution: NOT carrying SEVEN KNIVES!!!

#8 Life Boat Survival Bars
Look... I don't know how to tell you this. Those aren't magical elven Lembas bread. They're just basically sugar cookies. 'They don't provoke thirst'. So? That's because they're for LIFE BOATS... where drinkable water might be in short demand. 'They have your required calories...'. No. No they don't. They have MINIMUM SURVIVAL CALORIES FOR A SEDENTARY PERSON ON A LIFE BOAT, 1200 calories per day. 'They last five years'. So? So do Ramen noodles. Oh, and guess which one costs less to get/replace... and doesn't taste like total butt? I said TOTAL butt. I know some people aren't a fan of ramen.
Better solution: Ramen noodles. Or instant mashed potatoes. Instant oatmeal. About a jillion other things.

#9 Mirror for signaling
I'm all for having a small mirror. It's great if you take a thorn bush branch in the face, and need to see the damage. For signalling? I mean... you DO realize you're not a downed WWII pilot in the pacific... right? I'm not saying the'yre utterly worthless in the modern... no, you know what? I AM saying they're utterly worthless in the modern world, where there are literal tons of garbage making sparkly spots on the planet's surface.
Better Solution: Chem light? Smoke flare? Don't bother? I'd still have the mirror, just stop trying to sell it as a signalling device.

#10 Overdone First Aid
Trauma Kits, unless you know how to use them. 'Nuff Said. But related, tourniquets. suture kits. Fish anytibiotics. F'ing REALLY? You're going to dose yourself with fish antibiotics, not knowing what you have? Have fun with that.

As a fun bonus: Lynn's pronunciation and definition guide for BOBers.
Fresnel: pronounced 'fruh-NELL'. Augustin-Jean Fresnel. He's french, the s is silent and the stress on the second syllable. He invented a neat, thin lens.
Balaclava: A large scarf used to cover the face.
Baklava: a delicious dessert of middle eastern origin.
Pummel: To strike, usually with fists.
Pommel: the butt-end of a knife.
Use: to take, hold or deploy something as a means of achieving a result. to employ.
Utilize: To use something for a function other than it's intended purpose.
   Example: You USE a spoon to eat soup. You UTILIZE a spoon to dig a cat hole.

"I wrapped the birchbark fibers in my baklava, and beat them with the pummel of my knife, to utilise them in fire-making, which I accomplished with my FREZ-nul lens." - Every prepper on youtube.

Hope you all enjoy. :D
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Mechanickal on November 30, 2017, 07:42:17 PM
I like your insights Lynn!
You and I should get along just fine 8)
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: 5hif7y on November 30, 2017, 08:13:17 PM
i luv everything about this post. Its all so true.  :like: :like: :like:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Grathr on November 30, 2017, 08:32:26 PM
*sticks head into wasps nest*


1. But I like my titanium forkoon...  :D (long handeled)
 mostly because it has a carabiner at the end so I can clip it to a branch, pocket or something while cooking etc so it wont have to lay on the ground.

2. Bank line is great.

3. :tu:

4. Surrounded by boreal forrests, so a knife that can baton in a pinch is nice. A $12 Mora will do that. A small hatchet to accompany the knife is ideal here (especiall during winter.) Tampons are excellent plastic wrapped kindling. And birch bark is fantastic.

5. A light weight tarp is more versitale and is lighter than any ultralight tent. But a pop up tent sure is quick and easy to set up, and will protect you from the elements on all sides.  I totally agree about the ground pad, even with a hammock. Your butt sure gets cold quick in a hammock if its chilly outside.

6. Agree. Bring batteries.
I have a folding solar panel that I use when camping. It works great with a powerpack to charge my phone.

7. 2 is plenty.

8. That reminds me, I think I have some russian lifeboat bars in a drawer somewhere. Must try them sometime. :D

9. I dont agree. A signalling mirror can be quite effective for getting someones attention. Someting that continously blinks at you even after you have moved isnt some random piece of garbage.

10. Mmmm... fish antibiotics. :D



Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Smashie on November 30, 2017, 08:42:37 PM
I think I just wet myself I was laughing so hard, nice one Lynn  :salute:

Oh and you're right  :tu:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Syncop8r on December 01, 2017, 01:07:27 AM
Entertaining and on the money!  :D

Why does everything have to have a carabiner on it these days? I imagine people walking around with all sorts of crap hanging off them like a Christmas Tree, jingling like Santa.
Temporarily hooking to things I understand, but clipping stuff to the outside of your bag? Just put it in the bag.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: redmond on December 01, 2017, 03:11:33 AM
One of the best BoB posts ever!
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Lynn LeFey on December 01, 2017, 03:26:55 AM
Entertaining and on the money!  :D

Why does everything have to have a carabiner on it these days? I imagine people walking around with all sorts of crap hanging off them like a Christmas Tree, jingling like Santa.
Temporarily hooking to things I understand, but clipping stuff to the outside of your bag? Just put it in the bag.

I'm sure you've heard of the 'gray man' concept? The carabiners are for the 'Jangly Man' concept. Like bear bells. Sure... that's it. :D
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: gerleatherberman on December 01, 2017, 03:30:22 AM
Lynn,
You forgot the video intro where the video 'maker' is wearing a bullet proof vest firing a semi-automatic assault rifle for no apparent reason, aside from, thinking it looks cool.  :rofl:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Lynn LeFey on December 01, 2017, 03:37:32 AM
Lynn,
You forgot the video intro where the video 'maker' is wearing a bullet proof vest firing a semi-automatic assault rifle for no apparent reason, aside from, thinking it looks cool.  :rofl:

Oh, no... I didn't forget... Just figured I'd do 10 items on the first list. The 'bringing enough firepower for a war' is probably it's own whole topic. But i DO notice that a lot of videos will even have gun stuff sitting in frame while talking about anything... toilet paper, even. I guess this is because they want to draw in 'action junkies'. There's a really GOOD youtube channel, Prepper Princess, who does great stuff, particularly on the topic of thrifty living to save for preparedness stuff, and I swear, as a tongue in cheek thing, she has a short intro that's just her racking a shotgun.

And completely on that topic...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvKV9qqzuRY
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Alan K. on December 01, 2017, 03:48:18 AM
Yes. Yes. Yes.  100% agreed.  I will add that it is best to avoid almost every product with the word survival in the name because survival products are all a compromise that does not need to be made.

If you're building a kit in advance of a set of foreseeable circumstances so that you are preparing for those specific circumstances why would you handicap yourself with a product that is intended from the very start as a substitute for the real thing?  Why not just start out with the real thing?  Lynn already pointed out that a stainless steel spoon for 25 cents is better than an eat'n tool when it comes to actually eating.  What about the "survival knife" or the "survival rifle?"

If you really thought you were going to need to hunt for food why would you pack a so called "survival rifle?" Why wouldn't you improve your chance at success by bringing a proper rifle with better ergonomics and better sights?  :twak:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: ReamerPunch on December 01, 2017, 04:08:06 AM
gun stuff sitting in frame

That's better than having the host sitting on a log, with his crotch in shot.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Lynn LeFey on December 01, 2017, 04:16:57 AM
If you're building a kit in advance of a set of foreseeable circumstances so that you are preparing for those specific circumstances why would you handicap yourself with a product that is intended from the very start as a substitute for the real thing?

Exactly. I think we ALL understand that multitools are a compromise, where you lose some function for the benefit of space/weight saving. But some designs ought to just be the best version of, particularly when your life might be on the line.

As for Survival Rifles. Here I'm talking specifically about the M5 and AR-7 survival rifles, those were made for air crews, where you had VERY limited space. I still think the AR-7 is not a bad choice for light weight, inexpensive gun for small game. But they ARE a compromise.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: gerleatherberman on December 01, 2017, 04:50:33 AM
gun stuff sitting in frame

That's better than having the host sitting on a log, with his crotch in shot.
:rofl:

Lynn,
You forgot the video intro where the video 'maker' is wearing a bullet proof vest firing a semi-automatic assault rifle for no apparent reason, aside from, thinking it looks cool.  :rofl:

Oh, no... I didn't forget... Just figured I'd do 10 items on the first list. The 'bringing enough firepower for a war' is probably it's own whole topic. But i DO notice that a lot of videos will even have gun stuff sitting in frame while talking about anything... toilet paper, even. I guess this is because they want to draw in 'action junkies'. There's a really GOOD youtube channel, Prepper Princess, who does great stuff, particularly on the topic of thrifty living to save for preparedness stuff, and I swear, as a tongue in cheek thing, she has a short intro that's just her racking a shotgun.

And completely on that topic...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvKV9qqzuRY
Thank you! I have not laughed much lately..until this evening. :like:

I stopped watching most vids about MTs/knives/flashlights, because of the hyper-macho stuff and serious lack of mechanical/physics understanding.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: GuacamoleBay on December 01, 2017, 05:16:46 AM
Lynn,
You forgot the video intro where the video 'maker' is wearing a bullet proof vest firing a semi-automatic assault rifle for no apparent reason, aside from, thinking it looks cool.  :rofl:

But obviously in an emergency you want to look as tacticool as possible because what are the chances police or other emergency services would mistake you for a threat! They'll obviously recognize that you know what you're doing because you have a YouTube channel so they'll step aside and let you take control of the situation!
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Lynn LeFey on December 01, 2017, 05:23:47 AM
Lynn,
You forgot the video intro where the video 'maker' is wearing a bullet proof vest firing a semi-automatic assault rifle for no apparent reason, aside from, thinking it looks cool.  :rofl:

But obviously in an emergency you want to look as tacticool as possible because what are the chances police or other emergency services would mistake you for a threat! They'll obviously recognize that you know what you're doing because you have a YouTube channel so they'll step aside and let you take control of the situation!

Stand back! I'm from YOUTUBE! (trumpet fanfare)  :rofl:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Nix on December 01, 2017, 05:40:15 AM
Well....I'll argue.  :twak:

1. Spork. Sporks rule. Chopsticks are a close second. YMMV. Plastic utensils....not so good. Been there, broken that.

2. Bank Line. I love it. It sucks. Bank line makes everything it touches dirty and....well...tarred. Yes, it holds a nice knot. Yes, it's strong-ish. Yes, it's sort of light. But, it's messy. And Paracord just rocks. For so many reasons. Suck it up and carry some paracord.

3. Fixed blade. My BOB has a Fred Perrin Bowie in it. Right now, ready to go. Why? Because it's a great utility knife. And a fixed blade knife does not start out life 'broken'. And it is very light. Fixies just work and work and work. I have mine mostly for food prep, but, yeah, It'll baton wood or fend off trouble if needed. Remember, knives started as fixed blades. These newfangled folders are neat and all, but when the chips are down, think full-tang. And don't think an assailant will be deterred by your SAK.

4. Tarp. Tarps are more versatile than tents. They are lighter than tents. And, when being housed in a community shelter, can be used to create some private space. Carry a tarp, learn to use it.

5. FAK.  Any FAK is better than no FAK. Yes, a 10# FAK may be a bit of a hindrance, but it can be pared down if need be. Yes, it's possible to get by with a really minimal FAK....but you are counting on others then to assist you. Good luck with that in a crisis. Take a first aid course, EMT course, or first responder course and build a FAK you can use. I have FAK's stashed everywhere from my house, to my truck, to my briefcase, to my pack, to my shop bag, to....everywhere. Don't be that guy (girl) who doesn't know how to care for him- or herself. And, yes, I carry a tourniquet in most (not all) of my FAK's. #bleedingtodeathisstupid  Antibitotics....get an Rx from your Doc. This is a good idea for travel. Be sure you know when and why to take them.

6. Mirror. I like a mirror. Having taken military survival courses, I know the potential of a good mirror. My BOB has a small mirror. It is very light and takes up no room. And it's still very effective. THere are other good methods of signaling, but a mirror is fantastic. I've actually deployed to a combat zone and had to carry items to help get rescued. A mirror was one of those items. Don't like to carry the extra 1/2 Oz.? Fine, good luck when that chem light dies. And smoke flare? Really? Please post a picture of your smoke flare and list it's weight.

7. Fresnel lens. Well, I have old eyes and I like having a magnifier with me. I keep one in my wallet. And, with a bit of sun, they can be used to start a fire. Man's best friend.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: WoodsDuck on December 01, 2017, 05:58:10 AM
Great thread, Lynn. Gotta say I agree with most of your thoughts here.

And on the topic of rifles, I'd probably bring my Marlin Model 25, just because it's easy to pack ammo for a .22 and I know I can shoot well with it.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Gerhard Gerber on December 01, 2017, 08:04:42 AM
 :tu:

 :rofl:

INCH bags.......never heard or seen that term before, but that's what I was putting together when I was so far down the rabbit hole.

Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: styx on December 01, 2017, 10:04:39 AM
Lynn you got me laughing. Only point I would not agree a 100% is the paracord one. And this isn't paracord, but any heavier cord. Some shelters do require a bit stronger cordage than bank line (a lot of UL shelters). But they don't require a 100 feet of it or it to be as strong as 550.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: lister on December 01, 2017, 10:13:02 AM
I hate sporks! They don't work well as forks and don't work at all as spoons. Just get either Yugoslavian (Slovenian and Croatian armies still use the same one) or German army cutlery set. And the knife can be somewhat sharpened so it actually functions as a knife...  :D :D
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Etherealicer on December 01, 2017, 10:47:25 AM
Entertaining and on the money!  :D

Why does everything have to have a carabiner on it these days? I imagine people walking around with all sorts of crap hanging off them like a Christmas Tree, jingling like Santa.
Temporarily hooking to things I understand, but clipping stuff to the outside of your bag? Just put it in the bag.
You forgot, they also wear camo... for stealth!
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Etherealicer on December 01, 2017, 10:49:34 AM
#3 Fixed blade knives for 'defense'. Okay. So... HOW much training do you have in knife fighting? Have you ever BEEN in a knife fight? Was it fun? Is it something you'd ever want to do again? No? Well, then maybe a swiss army knife with a saw is a better answer, and use it go cut yourself a 4 foot long stick.
Better solution: almost anything. Seriously. A f'ing sock with a rock in it is a better defensive tool. But a long stick would be my choice if avoidance was impossible.
I kinda like my fixed blades for defense... and yeah come at me with your stick :D
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Etherealicer on December 01, 2017, 11:11:36 AM
I hate sporks! They don't work well as forks and don't work at all as spoons. Just get either Yugoslavian (Slovenian and Croatian armies still use the same one) or German army cutlery set. And the knife can be somewhat sharpened so it actually functions as a knife...  :D :D
I second that... don't like sporks. I like the NexTool

Although, in a 72h bag I probably would not have cutlery at all... I mean what for?
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: GuacamoleBay on December 01, 2017, 11:13:30 AM
Lynn,
You forgot the video intro where the video 'maker' is wearing a bullet proof vest firing a semi-automatic assault rifle for no apparent reason, aside from, thinking it looks cool.  :rofl:

But obviously in an emergency you want to look as tacticool as possible because what are the chances police or other emergency services would mistake you for a threat! They'll obviously recognize that you know what you're doing because you have a YouTube channel so they'll step aside and let you take control of the situation!

Stand back! I'm from YOUTUBE! (trumpet fanfare)  :rofl:

immediately gets tazed and falls to the floor unconscious
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Zed on December 01, 2017, 11:25:59 AM
And don't get me started on bottoning  :rant: endless YouTube videos of people breaking cheap non full tang moras and bitching when they break  :rant: smurfs use a smurfing hatchet or collect smaller wood ,or use a more expensive full tang if you want to Batton the smurf out of it ,but I guess it's too expensive and pretty  ;)
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: ducttapetech on December 01, 2017, 11:46:26 AM
And don't get me started on bottoning  :rant: endless YouTube videos of people breaking cheap non full tang moras and bitching when they break  :rant: smurfs use a smurfing hatchet or collect smaller wood ,or use a more expensive full tang if you want to Batton the smurf out of it ,but I guess it's too expensive and pretty  ;)
Bingo!
 You can baton with a morakniv and I do sometimes, just not a 6 inch log. Great for fine stuff. 
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Kev D on December 01, 2017, 11:48:17 AM
I'll just leave these here  :whistle:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4306/35698617250_9668b8a05e_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WoyKbS)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4230/35843364935_d40ee8e13a_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WBmBCB)
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: ThundahBeagle on December 01, 2017, 11:48:46 AM
Thank you Lynn LeFey!

Or should we call you...the Andy Rooney of "survival prepping!"

That was good stuff, cheap.

For my part, I'm guilty of carrying too much when I hike. An LM on my belt and a SAK in my pocket, but then I have another of each in my daily carried backpack, along with cord, water, snacks.etc.

Nice post.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Etherealicer on December 01, 2017, 12:25:24 PM
#8 Life Boat Survival Bars
Look... I don't know how to tell you this. Those aren't magical elven Lembas bread. They're just basically sugar cookies. 'They don't provoke thirst'. So? That's because they're for LIFE BOATS... where drinkable water might be in short demand. 'They have your required calories...'. No. No they don't. They have MINIMUM SURVIVAL CALORIES FOR A SEDENTARY PERSON ON A LIFE BOAT, 1200 calories per day. 'They last five years'. So? So do Ramen noodles. Oh, and guess which one costs less to get/replace... and doesn't taste like total butt? I said TOTAL butt. I know some people aren't a fan of ramen.
Better solution: Ramen noodles. Or instant mashed potatoes. Instant oatmeal. About a jillion other things.
I disagree... calories are not the issue, not in 72h. You can go 72h without eating. Energy is though, if you want to stay active (activating those fat deposits around the belly takes some time and is slow). So, a couple of power-bar or power-gel will be a great help.

Better solution: A jar of honey... you know its sweet, tasty, natural and lasts forever
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Gerhard Gerber on December 01, 2017, 12:42:03 PM
OK, wait a bit, I need to come up for batoning a bit......  :salute:

99% of the time we buy local hardwoods (Camelthorn and Mopani are prefered) for firemaking purposes, this is for the "braai".......barbecue, only done right....... :whistle:

We buy the wood in 25kg bags in general, containing sawn and sometimes split wood in 30-40cm lenghts.

Most people also have an extremely large en always extremely dull axe in, at or about the "braai" place for splitting wood.

I firmly believe there is no safer or easier way to split a few pieces when starting the fire than batoning with a large knife.....and I always have a big leaf spring chopper around.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: lister on December 01, 2017, 12:42:12 PM
#3 Fixed blade knives for 'defense'. Okay. So... HOW much training do you have in knife fighting? Have you ever BEEN in a knife fight? Was it fun? Is it something you'd ever want to do again? No? Well, then maybe a swiss army knife with a saw is a better answer, and use it go cut yourself a 4 foot long stick.
Better solution: almost anything. Seriously. A f'ing sock with a rock in it is a better defensive tool. But a long stick would be my choice if avoidance was impossible.
I kinda like my fixed blades for defense... and yeah come at me with your stick :D

I like your fixed blades. So HEMA?  :D
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Etherealicer on December 01, 2017, 12:52:02 PM
#3 Fixed blade knives for 'defense'. Okay. So... HOW much training do you have in knife fighting? Have you ever BEEN in a knife fight? Was it fun? Is it something you'd ever want to do again? No? Well, then maybe a swiss army knife with a saw is a better answer, and use it go cut yourself a 4 foot long stick.
Better solution: almost anything. Seriously. A f'ing sock with a rock in it is a better defensive tool. But a long stick would be my choice if avoidance was impossible.
I kinda like my fixed blades for defense... and yeah come at me with your stick :D

I like your fixed blades. So HEMA?  :D
Yup, fairly old picture though... that Hanwei feather is broken in two and I got new swords. My latest additions you can see here (https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,74682.0.html)
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: ducttapetech on December 01, 2017, 12:53:14 PM
Great stuff Lynn. Had a good laugh. Just about spit out my coffee.  :rofl:
However.......


I've watched a lot of videos on bug out bags, get home bags, etc. There are things in those videos that make me super crazy. I thought I'd share. Much of this is just for fun. Any preparation is better than nothing, and i'm not trying to crush anyone's feelings here.

And please keep in mind, these comments are concerning '72 hour bags' or thereabouts. Some of the things I'm commenting on are perfectly legitimate in LONG-term kits (what some people call 'I'm Never Coming Home' or INCH bags)

#1 The CRKT Eat'n Tool.
Question: What's the best way to waste your valuable money in survival supplies? Answer: Buy a CRKT Eat'n Tool. Extra bonus, buy one in Titanium.
The weight difference between titanium and stainless steel are extremely negligible at this scale, Most of these stupid things have non polished bowls, so they look like a frickin breeding ground for bacteria, and worst of all, they completely SUCK as spoons, with that short, stupid handle. The extra functions don't make up for the complete suckness of its main function.
Better solution: A stainless steel spoon. Simple. It might cost you all of 10g of extra weight. They cost 25 CENTS at every Goodwill store and are essentially indestructable.

Nailed it. Unless it is the MT.org 1 million post one. It is just plain awesome because MTO! Actually I use chopsticks. Love em.

#2 Paracord.
I admit. I carry paracord. For now. It will be replaced soon. What with? Tarred bank line. When was the last time you honestly NEEDED 550lb strength cordage? And if it was 'to haul a car out of a ditch', then you should have had straps for that, not relying on a cordage that stretches. And '7 inner strands can be...' No. Shut up. If you KNOW you're likely to need lighter cordage, BRING lighter cordage. Dental floss, fishing line, silk thread, I don't care what, but something. If you're tearing apart your heavy cordage to get light cordage, you're wasting your time, and space in your pack, and being stupid.
Worse: Firecord. Hey, here's a great idea, let's put flamable crap in our cordage that we need to tear apart to get to! One MORE idiotic thing! Hey, why not just have fireproof stuff... I dunno... NOT in your frickin ROPE!
Better solution: Bank line and a lighter sewing weight/fishing line cord. Combined, they still weigh a LOT less than an equivalent length of paracord.

I just used paracord yesterday to drag a deer out of the woods. Hell of a lot lighter than a rope or those nylon straps we used to carry. Just put a marlin hitch on a branch and drag away. I also use it for my ridge line when I go camping. However, I love bankline and jute cord for everything else. Must have.

#3 Fixed blade knives for 'defense'. Okay. So... HOW much training do you have in knife fighting? Have you ever BEEN in a knife fight? Was it fun? Is it something you'd ever want to do again? No? Well, then maybe a swiss army knife with a saw is a better answer, and use it go cut yourself a 4 foot long stick.
Better solution: almost anything. Seriously. A f'ing sock with a rock in it is a better defensive tool. But a long stick would be my choice if avoidance was impossible.

Bingo! Never have been in one, don't ever want to. I have better uses for my fixed blade, like gutting and skinning game.

#4 Fixed blade knives for 'batoning'. I wondered long and hard why anyone would ever need to baton. Okay, so you baton a piece of wood to get to the dry center to make firesticks in wet conditions. Great. No. Take something to kindle your fire WITH you. We're talking for a bag with a 3 or so day duration. NOT bushcraft. Shove that bushcraft mentailty up your...
Better solution. Bring more cotton balls dipped in parafin. They weigh less, and are a more certain solution.

In most cases, never shove anything up you ass, it's not healthy.  :rofl:
When I was growing up they where just called primitive skills. Yes I use my Mora to baton light material. Not 6 inch logs! Gareth said it perfectly.  If you have some of the skills, use them. I agree with the extra fire supplies. If it is an emergency, I want fire 5 minutes ago.


#5 improvised shelter supplies.
Better solution: NOT improvised shelter. You know... like a f'ing tent. Maybe don't buy that $300 custom stupid f'ing KNIFE and buy an awesome ultralight TENT instead. And unless they're carrying a hammock, you should REALLY be carrying a ground pad. I personally prefer closed cell foam, just plain old sleeping pad, because there is nothing that can fail on it.

Tarps are the way to go and Gaute said it perfectly. I gave up on tents years ago. But this just depends on the person preference.

#6 Crank powered anything.
I have a crank powered radio, and have owned two crank powered flashlights. The flashlights were purchased for the purpose of putting in emergency bags, but I wanted to test them first. And... They suck.
I have a cheap one called 'The Charger' I got from a prepper supply company for $10 whose name sounds a bit like 'Emergency Essentials', or exactly like it, and I got an Energizer Weatheready. The Charger weighs 6oz, and the Weatheready 4oz. I can crank wither for about 3 minutes before it becomes extremely uncomfortable. The thing they don't tell you about these is that they are powered by rechargeable batteries, which lose charge over time. They will 'set' in a lower charge state and no longer accept charge if you don't recharge them with some frequency. So, they are not a 'stuff it in the pack and forget about it' solution. The phone charger on the Charger MIGHT work, but after 3 minutes of cranking, it did 0% change to the charge on my phone. What I've heard is half an hour will give you about 5%, but I'm not holding my breath. Regular old flashlights weigh less, including lots of spare batteries. You might have to swap the batteries out every few years, but... you'd have to jerk around with the crank lights anyway. Oh, and the light on the Charger, after not much use at all, is very flakey. Sometimes will, sometimes won't come on.And the Weatheready needs about a minute of cranking for 2 minutes of runtime.
Better solution: bring a little AAA light and spare batteries. An aluminum 2xAAA weighs 2oz with 2 alcaline cells. Each alcaline cell weighs 1/4 oz. Eneloop rechargeables weigh about .4 oz each. So you could bring the aforementioned 2xAAA light, and 8 spare batteries for the weight of the Weatheready, take up less space, and have a light that runs immediately, and a LONG time.
This is one of those times where I got gear, and tested it before cramming it in my bag and assuming it'd be fine.

110% agree.

#7 KniveS (hard stress on the plural)
The next parrot that screams 'Two is one, one is none' is getting it! Shut... the... F***... UP! I get the need for redundancy in gear. Carry a spare. DON'T carry seven. LITERALLY seven. You only got the two hands! What are you doing? Throwing them into lakes? I'd like to say that seven is the MOST knives I've seen in a bag.
better solution: NOT carrying SEVEN KNIVES!!!

I 100% agree. 2 or 3 should hold you for a while.


#8 Life Boat Survival Bars
Look... I don't know how to tell you this. Those aren't magical elven Lembas bread. They're just basically sugar cookies. 'They don't provoke thirst'. So? That's because they're for LIFE BOATS... where drinkable water might be in short demand. 'They have your required calories...'. No. No they don't. They have MINIMUM SURVIVAL CALORIES FOR A SEDENTARY PERSON ON A LIFE BOAT, 1200 calories per day. 'They last five years'. So? So do Ramen noodles. Oh, and guess which one costs less to get/replace... and doesn't taste like total butt? I said TOTAL butt. I know some people aren't a fan of ramen.
Better solution: Ramen noodles. Or instant mashed potatoes. Instant oatmeal. About a jillion other things.

Don't know nothing about the bars. I just eat regular food.

#9 Mirror for signaling
I'm all for having a small mirror. It's great if you take a thorn bush branch in the face, and need to see the damage. For signalling? I mean... you DO realize you're not a downed WWII pilot in the pacific... right? I'm not saying the'yre utterly worthless in the modern... no, you know what? I AM saying they're utterly worthless in the modern world, where there are literal tons of garbage making sparkly spots on the planet's surface.
Better Solution: Chem light? Smoke flare? Don't bother? I'd still have the mirror, just stop trying to sell it as a signalling device.

Again Gaute said it. perfectly. Get one. Learn to use it. Also great for getting thorns out of you face.

#10 Overdone First Aid
Trauma Kits, unless you know how to use them. 'Nuff Said. But related, tourniquets. suture kits. Fish anytibiotics. F'ing REALLY? You're going to dose yourself with fish antibiotics, not knowing what you have? Have fun with that.

Fish antibiotics......... :rofl:


As a fun bonus: Lynn's pronunciation and definition guide for BOBers.
Fresnel: pronounced 'fruh-NELL'. Augustin-Jean Fresnel. He's french, the s is silent and the stress on the second syllable. He invented a neat, thin lens.
Balaclava: A large scarf used to cover the face.
Baklava: a delicious dessert of middle eastern origin.
Pummel: To strike, usually with fists.
Pommel: the butt-end of a knife.
Use: to take, hold or deploy something as a means of achieving a result. to employ.
Utilize: To use something for a function other than it's intended purpose.
   Example: You USE a spoon to eat soup. You UTILIZE a spoon to dig a cat hole.

"I wrapped the birchbark fibers in my baklava, and beat them with the pummel of my knife, to utilise them in fire-making, which I accomplished with my FREZ-nul lens." - Every prepper on youtube.

 :rofl:

I say Frez-nul-lens, but nobody told me the "s" is silent. However,  I will still pronounce it as Frez-nul-lens. The rules in our messed up language says that is how it is pronounced. LOL!
Also, I still need to get one of these. I still just use an old lens out of a broken camera.


Hope you all enjoy. :D

Again, great read Lynn!
 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Etherealicer on December 01, 2017, 01:35:34 PM
@ #7

Hmmm... I don't own a GOB, BOG, BOB, 72h Bag but.... I usually carry a MT and a folder (that is 2). My tiny FAK (https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,66429.msg1345729.html#msg1345729) contains a Classic and a Bakers Knife (that makes 4), my tiny "Survivall"* Kit, which is the closest to a BOB I own, has a Midshipman (making it 5). I'm currently playing with small fixed blades, that is why today a CRKT Ruger Cordite rides in my backpack (that's 6). God bless the new Alox @work is bladelss, so it doesn't count...
Yeah 7 is way too many :rofl:

* Can anyone tell me why there is only one "L"? I mean I don't want to survive Al (he is old so that is a given anyway). No! I want to survive ALL :think:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: ducttapetech on December 01, 2017, 01:52:29 PM
OK, wait a bit, I need to come up for batoning a bit......  :salute:

99% of the time we buy local hardwoods (Camelthorn and Mopani are prefered) for firemaking purposes, this is for the "braai".......barbecue, only done right....... :whistle:

We buy the wood in 25kg bags in general, containing sawn and sometimes split wood in 30-40cm lenghts.

Most people also have an extremely large en always extremely dull axe in, at or about the "braai" place for splitting wood.

I firmly believe there is no safer or easier way to split a few pieces when starting the fire than batoning with a large knife.....and I always have a big leaf spring chopper around.
I agree. My bitch is when idiots try to baton 6 inch logs with a small knife and then says that the knife sucks because it broke.
Batoning is not some new skill that just showed up on youtube. Although it has become a craze here lately. I learned how to do it from my grandfather when I was a kid. And it wasn't just for making fires either. It always amazed me what that man could do with his fixed blade and his Case Stockman.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: styx on December 01, 2017, 02:06:10 PM
Can someone explain one other thing - why are some people spending very big sums of money (let us say over $500 or €500, depending on where we are) on backpacks that weight more than the contents of the bag put together (especially those 120liter "backpack" that requires a frame and straps and a hip belt which are all sold separately) but then count grams on eating utensils, folding knives (the back up for a fixed blade), fixed blade knives (have to be light to strike fast :facepalm: ) and just about everything else with the exception of a wool blanket which is often in itself heavier than most well rounded sleep systems of equal warmth can be?
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: styx on December 01, 2017, 02:10:10 PM
a few ideas from Mors

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpdTCWAGlR8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvlmsH0IFT4
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: ducttapetech on December 01, 2017, 02:19:44 PM
Can someone explain one other thing - why are some people spending very big sums of money (let us say over $500 or €500, depending on where we are) on backpacks that weight more than the contents of the bag put together (especially those 120liter "backpack" that requires a frame and straps and a hip belt which are all sold separately) but then count grams on eating utensils, folding knives (the back up for a fixed blade), fixed blade knives (have to be light to strike fast :facepalm: ) and just about everything else with the exception of a wool blanket which is often in itself heavier than most well rounded sleep systems of equal warmth can be?
Beats me about the packs. I just use an old ALICE pack I got for 25 bucks. Has a frame, light weight and tough as nails.
I do like wools blankets. But I use them when it is warmer and I don't need a bulky -30 sleeping bag.

If done right, even with wool blankets and older gear that is heavier, the pack with everything in it should only weigh about 25 to 30 pounds at most. Give or take on the climate.  Food and water is about the only thing that should really start to weigh the pack down. And that is just for camping. A BOB or 72 hour or what the hell ever they are called now will have more in it. But of course, it is a totally different situation. You may have kids with you or other factors.
I have said in a another thread before, people are really over thinking this anymore and are just going at each other. The thing is, it is you who is going to be using the bag and make the bag according to you skills and the things you like or are used to and make it to fit you needs.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Etherealicer on December 01, 2017, 02:24:01 PM
Can someone explain one other thing - why are some people spending very big sums of money (let us say over $500 or €500, depending on where we are) on backpacks that weight more than the contents of the bag put together (especially those 120liter "backpack" that requires a frame and straps and a hip belt which are all sold separately) but then count grams on eating utensils, folding knives (the back up for a fixed blade), fixed blade knives (have to be light to strike fast :facepalm: ) and just about everything else with the exception of a wool blanket which is often in itself heavier than most well rounded sleep systems of equal warmth can be?
I cannot talk about other people... but I own two EVOC backpacks (10 (https://www.evocsports.com/products/backpacks/cc-10l) & 20 (https://www.evocsports.com/products/backpacks/fr-trail-team-20l)L). They are both fairly heavy and fairly expensive. They are heavy due to the many pockets on the inside, letting you organize stuff (Ok, the 20L is also heavy because it has a back protector built in, not the worst idea when you cycle on icy roads).

CON
- Heavy
- Expensive

PRO
- Excellent quality and waterproof (the 20L has a built in water cover)
- The many pockets/sleeves let you organize your gear for easy access and saves you some weight as you don't need additional organizers like a Maxpedition pouch.
- They are small (as opposed to wide) allowing you to move unhindered in crowds

And yeah, if I can find equivalent/better gear that is lighter, I go for it. I have to carry it all the time.
If you are talking about those ridiculous "tactical" backpacks with molle webbing (which no one uses but adds tons of weight) all over... I have no idea :D
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: ducttapetech on December 01, 2017, 02:28:27 PM
a few ideas from Mors

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpdTCWAGlR8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvlmsH0IFT4
Love that guy! He has forgot more than most of us will ever know.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: gerleatherberman on December 01, 2017, 03:48:18 PM
Now I have had a laugh, I must begrudgingly admit a few items in my camp bag (can be used for a bug out I guess) designed for the Alabama woods. Cheap lightweight tent for one (me. Haha), 200ft if high tensil twine (cheap and easy to work with for me), 30ft of nylon rope (in case I need to drag my lazy but up a hill or something), a small machete with a long wood sawing portion on the back, a strong 5" fixed blade for cutting stuff my MT knife won't cut, small hatchet,  a 3lb bag of beef jerky, a 1/4in thick 2' x 6' shipping foam rolled up, big can of Off bug spray, bandaids with rubbing alcohol, compact snake bite kite, three led flashlights with a 24pk of light weight non-alkaline batteries, a phone charger that uses said batteries, an energizer 350Lumen strobing flashlight, bar of soap, a few other foor goodies, a pint of burbon(even though I don't drink, it may help with the boredom if my phone goes dead), a few cans of oil packed kippers and sardines, sleeve of saltines, a small stainless bowl with short spoon, a water filter tube, canteen, a tiny ferro rod (redundancy), a six pack of BIC lighters, a roll of toilet paper(good to start fires and clean my butt), a modified LM Rebar, and lastly a Thompson sub-machine  gun.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: ReamerPunch on December 01, 2017, 03:58:06 PM
And a partridge in a pear tree!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: WWW on December 01, 2017, 04:04:31 PM
Your posts are always great!! I always get a good laugh out of them!!!

First aid is something I've been looking into. I have no training whatsoever and wanted to get some so it is the subject that was fresh in my mind.

People sometimes have small OR's in their bags, but can barely (with their skills) assess and treat a non-life-threatening wound, let alone apply stitches and other advanced medical things... (which I oviously know nothing about).

Great post Lynn!!
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Aloha on December 01, 2017, 04:20:45 PM
1. Use what works for you. 
2. See #1
3. Maybe I've watched too many of the videos you watched.  Fasten fixed blade to 4 foot stick you mention using cordage of choice.
4. This seems to evoke some really passionate debate.  Again I say, whatever works for you.  So for those who absolutely are passionate against battoning, there is never a time or situation?  Just curious. 
5. I've seen albeit never used a tarp in the manner some have.  Seems a tarp for some is every bit as effective.  There are always better options however.  I'd also add it certainly depends on where you live.
6. I don't own anything crank powered. 
7. 1 is none and 7 is one.  SIGH. 
8. There are so many great options.  I also don't do MREs. 
9. Not sure what to say other than my compass has one. 
10. If the 1st aid kit one has is packed with items you have no clue how to use then thats just silly.  There are so many classes you can take to learn to do basic 1st aid as well as more involved 1st aid.  My opinion is if you are a parent or have a partner then you should have basic 1st aid skills.  I'm not talking about applying a bandaid either.  I'd highly suggest taking classes rather than watching youtube videos. 

Lynn I took you post as tongue in cheek which had me laughing.  My honest thoughts are people should do what they feel is best for them.  There are way to many "experts" on the internet.  Seems like every year the there is a must have survival item.  A must have knife, light, or whatever.  The assembling of these bags to me is more hobby than anything.  Let me put it simply like this, if we are talking survival all you need to do is look at the homeless in your area.  I'm pretty sure they don't have 1/4 of the stuff those so called experts have.  If we are talking 72 hours or heck one week survival then what are we really talking about?  In my opinion its, COMFORT.  Thing is, most cannot go 24 hours without a smoke or drink let alone all the crap they put into their mouths.  How the heck in all reality are they gonna "survive" 72 hours?  I call BS on it all actually.             
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Zed on December 01, 2017, 04:37:25 PM
And don't get me started on bottoning  :rant: endless YouTube videos of people breaking cheap non full tang moras and bitching when they break  :rant: smurfs use a smurfing hatchet or collect smaller wood ,or use a more expensive full tang if you want to Batton the smurf out of it ,but I guess it's too expensive and pretty  ;)
Bingo!
 You can baton with a morakniv and I do sometimes, just not a 6 inch log. Great for fine stuff.

Exactly mate  :salute: I've battoned smaller bits of wood with even my #1 but only small bits that arnt full of big knots  :tu:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: ironraven on December 02, 2017, 11:04:32 PM
While I don't fully agree with all of your points, Lynn, it is merely from a matter of local terrain and gear preference.

For example, I don't like bankline, but no one has been able to prove to me that it is superior the the BRAIDED mason twine I can pick up pretty easily anyplace that actually sells working tools around here (you know, anywhere but Wallyworld) and doesn't have an odd smell to it. Maybe it was that batch of bankline, but I can't buy it locally period, I have to special order it.

But part of why I have kind of dropped out the "prepper community" is that most people say their plan isn't to run to the woods and play out their Robinson Crueso/Mountainman fantasy, but then that is what they pack for. I think it is becuase no one can reconcil the mental disparrity between the following kinds of sources:
-bushcraft, overly romantized descriptions of being a cowboy or a mountain man, or traditional pre-industrial skills (usually practiced by people who don't walk the walk, talk the talk, and die of old age at 35 assuming they made it out puberty- I like my running water)
-WWII-vintage aviator survival manuals and more modern manuals that trace their way to those
-fall out shelters (and the delusions that follow)
-political wackiness and the panic that can be stirred up by one guy on a dirt bike screaming into the night, "ISIS is comming! The ISIS is comming".
People have no idea what their plan is, so they try to absorb knowledge, never practice, and never try to apply it to their particular needs. But they will sure try to buy toys that can substitute for wisdom.

One of the things that makes me cringe is what I'll call "fad gear". Not all of it is "gucci gear", but the tool of your guru of choice. Like the Mora. I own a Mora. It's a nice knife. It isn't a great knife, but 10 years ago before they became super fashionable for their price they were good. They still are, honestly, but the prices have jumped two, three times and many of the more useful and traditional styles dropped there becuase they are a trendy brand, all of the wannabe followers of Mors K and Cody L pick it because "that's what the pros carry". Bankline has been around forever, and it didn't take off until Dave C made it popular through youtube- it's probably ok, I just don't see it as better than the braided stuff I can get any and every day of the week for less money. Batonning is a viable skill, it has a real role to play, but don't be stupid with it- an axe isn't a knife, and sometimes it's easier to carry a small fixed blade and small hatchet (or tomahawk) rather than some modern falcion. It is FUN to buy gear and show it off.

But planning is hard. Planning can be harsh. Sometimes planning leads you to the conclusion that if you don't have time to take it slow, you're going to die becuase you are physically incapable of being fast without abandoning someone. Sometimes the brutal honesty required to really do this is scary and depressing and honestly isn't fun. It's a lot more fun to think about how to deal with zombies and north korea invading, than it is to think about how to be a refugee. Particularly in modern natural disasters- have a way to keep that ID and cash and bank book on you at all times. I do think you should have two ways of starting fire, and a whistle, and yes, even a mirror, as all told, something like one of AMK's smaller kits, a ferro rod, and a lighter is less heavy than 22" long machete with a quarter inch thick blade with variable grind so it can both make sushi and chop into an engine block.

Most people who are prepping, they mean well. A LOT of them do well. But honestly, outside of earthquake, storm, fire and flood, if you live in the first world you don't have to worry that much. My focus is on getting home, which can mean one of two places, if I can be mobile. If I"m not motorized, the plan changes. If I"m there, I'm staying there, at least until I have more intel. I could load the gear for 72 hours in ten minutes if I'm going by car. If I'm going on foot, it won't get so bad so fast that I can't move it from the tote to my field pack. If I think an immediate situation will reach that point, yes, I"ll repack my long range pack, but I don't keep it set up like that every second of every hour of every day. Simple reality of my situation is my commute is 45-60 minutes depending on road conditions, and I can't keep a full sized 72 hour pack in my car, it isn't practical. When I lived an afternoon's walk from work, fine, yes, I had a 72 hour pack wiating for me. But now, it's a two day walk, and with my medical condition, I'm not sure my feet will still be useful if I have to do that in winter. Or my lungs. Come February, it's less painful and just as final for me to eat my pistol than it is to try to play out some hollywood fantasy.

I'm not damning anyone who keeps a 72hour pack loaded at all times. Go for it. Just think long and hard about what it is really for, and act on rational, coherent, deliberative thought. Not trying to look cool.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: GuacamoleBay on December 03, 2017, 12:01:07 AM
While I don't fully agree with all of your points, Lynn, it is merely from a matter of local terrain and gear preference...
But part of why I have kind of dropped out the "prepper community" is that most people say their plan isn't to run to the woods and play out their Robinson Crueso/Mountainman fantasy, but then that is what they pack for. I think it is becuase no one can reconcil the mental disparrity between the following kinds of sources:
-bushcraft, overly romantized descriptions of being a cowboy or a mountain man, or traditional pre-industrial skills (usually practiced by people who don't walk the walk, talk the talk, and die of old age at 35 assuming they made it out puberty- I like my running water)
-WWII-vintage aviator survival manuals and more modern manuals that trace their way to those
-fall out shelters (and the delusions that follow)
-political wackiness and the panic that can be stirred up by one guy on a dirt bike screaming into the night, "ISIS is comming! The ISIS is comming".
People have no idea what their plan is, so they try to absorb knowledge, never practice, and never try to apply it to their particular needs. But they will sure try to buy toys that can substitute for wisdom.

One of the things that makes me cringe is what I'll call "fad gear". Not all of it is "gucci gear", but the tool of your guru of choice. Like the Mora. I own a Mora. It's a nice knife. It isn't a great knife, but 10 years ago before they became super fashionable for their price they were good. They still are, honestly, but the prices have jumped two, three times and many of the more useful and traditional styles dropped there becuase they are a trendy

...It's a lot more fun to think about how to deal with zombies and north korea invading, than it is to think about how to be a refugee. Particularly in modern natural disasters- have a way to keep that ID and cash and bank book on you at all times.
...When I lived an afternoon's walk from work, fine, yes, I had a 72 hour pack wiating for me. But now, it's a two day walk, and with my medical condition, I'm not sure my feet will still be useful if I have to do that in winter. Or my lungs. Come February, it's less painful and just as final for me to eat my pistol than it is to try to play out some hollywood fantasy.

I'm not damning anyone who keeps a 72hour pack loaded at all times. Go for it. Just think long and hard about what it is really for, and act on rational, coherent, deliberative thought. Not trying to look cool.


My personal philosophy is to prepare for the highest likelihood. I live in a city in the middle of a tectonic plate, quite high up (maybe a five or six hundred metres from the water but a good four metres higher), and there aren't any tornadoes so my two likeliest emergencies are a massive ice storm (we had one in the early 2000s that cut power, water and emergency services from the entire city for almost a week and caused a bunch of trees to crash to the ground all during -20c weather) and a fire. As for your point about Moras I use them because I've inherited them, my family has been using moras for 300 years, long before mora was a company and the ones I've bought I bought while I was in Sweden (I got a Mora 511 for $6CAD, buying them elsewhere just subjects you to massive hikes in price), I like them because they're attractive and I know I can trust them. As for your last point I'm still in my prime so I would have some chance of getting away but it would still be incredibly difficult and I cannot imagine anyone over the age of 45, with some exceptions of course, hiking twenty kilometres with a backpack that weights almost as much as they do.

In conclusion I think that the majority of YouTube preppers are the exact opposite of who would last during an emergency: unrealistic idealists who are convinced that a rifle will be more useful than a couple hundred dollars in cash and who have never spent a day working with their hands and because of that they buy something not because they trust it but rather because it looks cool or because it's popular.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: ironraven on December 03, 2017, 01:58:20 AM
I think I was being over cynical and under expressive. Let me sum up.

I hate what I don't see. Planning. I rarely see realistic planning. And I rarely see realistic expectations. But when we strip off all fuzzy words, we're talking about becoming a refugee. Even if you have a place to go, that's what you are, a displaced person.

Should you have basic "wilderness" survival tools? Sure. PSK level stuff, light weight, compact. But don't think running for the hills is a plan. It isn't. At that point you go from being a refugee to a vagrant.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: ThePeacent on December 04, 2017, 03:09:28 PM
Now I have had a laugh, I must begrudgingly admit a few items in my camp bag (can be used for a bug out I guess) designed for the Alabama woods.
and lastly a Thompson sub-machine  gun.

excuse me?  :o ???
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Aloha on December 04, 2017, 03:16:47 PM
@ ironraven.   :tu:

Just today on the news it was announced to have a evacuation plan in place for wild fires.  This is the most likely scenario I face and have faced.  No bugging out for us here in SoCal.  The more likely situation will be going to a family members or friends as long as they weren't evacuated.  The other situation would be to go to a evacuation site.  My plan is have what I need to be self sustaining for a week.  A bag simply wont do.  NOW that being said if all I grabbed was my bag(s) I've discussed a hand cart to transport them.  I would be ok in a evacuation site but I'd prefer to "camp" nearby. 

I do believe however ironraven pretty much summed up what I feel about these bags and those that go on video showing the contents. 

Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: eamo on December 04, 2017, 09:04:21 PM
Great thread Lynn  :like:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Ron Who on December 04, 2017, 09:56:11 PM
Great thread Lynn  :like:

+1 and funny too.

IMO  many Youtube prepping vids are not about prepping at all. They´re about making money. The Prepper Princess is right. You don´t need tons of stuff. Food, water, and protection against the weather are the most important.

Of course I do carry tons of stuff myself, but that´s for fun.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Steinar on December 04, 2017, 10:18:55 PM
You don´t need tons of stuff.

I agree.

Quote
Food, water, and protection against the weather are the most important.

I (sort of) disagree.

For the most likely scenarios for me having to leave quickly, for instance if the block I'm living in started burning, industrial accident, etc, the most important would be credit card, ID, and the digital copies of my grades and certifications (I have off-site encrypted copies of those anyway, but that's exactly because they are valuable). I live in a small city, shelter isn't a problem as long as you salvage ID and means of payment... Or, the tool for shelter isn't a tarp, it's a credit card (till the insurance company comes through). But, you need to live after the first 72 hrs as well. Same thing for the nasty scenarios where you end up a refugee: You need the building blocks for reassembling a life.

Now we're talking the depressing scenarios, those which are really no fun planning for, but are rather more likely than the invasion of the flesh-eating sheep.

I'll echo what Ironraven said earlier, the most important part is planning.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Steinar on December 04, 2017, 10:34:09 PM
... and I think the above probably is the most depressing post I've ever written for MT.o.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: RamoN on December 04, 2017, 10:35:59 PM





but are rather more likely than the invasion of the flesh-eating sheep.



wait you are saying thats less likely but possible? :ahhh im replacing my bug out bag with a bug out tank asap :D

I like what the lady on the video said about learning from poeple who actually deal with real situations, on that note one could wonder how people managed to survive in the wilderness, deal with emergencies before cool tactical gear for every possible thing was invented  :think:

Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Syncop8r on December 04, 2017, 10:39:48 PM
Now we're talking the depressing scenarios, those which are really no fun planning for, but are rather more likely than the invasion of the flesh-eating sheep.

:ahhh  :ahhh  :ahhh  :ahhh  :ahhh  :ahhh  :ahhh  :ahhh  :ahhh  :ahhh  :ahhh  :ahhh  :ahhh  :ahhh  :ahhh  :ahhh  :ahhh  :ahhh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-ExKYM5xQY
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Steinar on December 04, 2017, 10:40:51 PM
Syncop8r beat me to it. :D
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Syncop8r on December 04, 2017, 10:42:24 PM
I haven't actually seen it yet, looks pretty funny.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Steinar on December 04, 2017, 10:44:21 PM
I've seen it, I prefer the Peter Jackson splat fests, but it has its fun moments. :)
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: styx on December 04, 2017, 10:54:30 PM
Can someone explain one other thing - why are some people spending very big sums of money (let us say over $500 or €500, depending on where we are) on backpacks that weight more than the contents of the bag put together (especially those 120liter "backpack" that requires a frame and straps and a hip belt which are all sold separately) but then count grams on eating utensils, folding knives (the back up for a fixed blade), fixed blade knives (have to be light to strike fast :facepalm: ) and just about everything else with the exception of a wool blanket which is often in itself heavier than most well rounded sleep systems of equal warmth can be?
Beats me about the packs. I just use an old ALICE pack I got for 25 bucks. Has a frame, light weight and tough as nails.
I do like wools blankets. But I use them when it is warmer and I don't need a bulky -30 sleeping bag.

If done right, even with wool blankets and older gear that is heavier, the pack with everything in it should only weigh about 25 to 30 pounds at most. Give or take on the climate.  Food and water is about the only thing that should really start to weigh the pack down. And that is just for camping. A BOB or 72 hour or what the hell ever they are called now will have more in it. But of course, it is a totally different situation. You may have kids with you or other factors.
I have said in a another thread before, people are really over thinking this anymore and are just going at each other. The thing is, it is you who is going to be using the bag and make the bag according to you skills and the things you like or are used to and make it to fit you needs.

That's what I've been saying for about a decade now. Sure the new packs might have bells and whistles, but an old Alice pack will do the job and won't be an eyesore. Now I don't have anything against a bit of extra weight but if I'm willing to take heavy items when there are alternatives that are lighter, just as good and oddly in the same price range then I certainly shouldn't be taking compromises on the rest of the gear. A plastic spoon is maybe 3 grams, a spoon from my kitchen is about 24. Sure I'd save 21 grams but if I'm willing to not save 1200 with other choices, then those 21 grams aren't that big of a deal.

Can someone explain one other thing - why are some people spending very big sums of money (let us say over $500 or €500, depending on where we are) on backpacks that weight more than the contents of the bag put together (especially those 120liter "backpack" that requires a frame and straps and a hip belt which are all sold separately) but then count grams on eating utensils, folding knives (the back up for a fixed blade), fixed blade knives (have to be light to strike fast :facepalm: ) and just about everything else with the exception of a wool blanket which is often in itself heavier than most well rounded sleep systems of equal warmth can be?
I cannot talk about other people... but I own two EVOC backpacks (10 (https://www.evocsports.com/products/backpacks/cc-10l) & 20 (https://www.evocsports.com/products/backpacks/fr-trail-team-20l)L). They are both fairly heavy and fairly expensive. They are heavy due to the many pockets on the inside, letting you organize stuff (Ok, the 20L is also heavy because it has a back protector built in, not the worst idea when you cycle on icy roads).

CON
- Heavy
- Expensive

PRO
- Excellent quality and waterproof (the 20L has a built in water cover)
- The many pockets/sleeves let you organize your gear for easy access and saves you some weight as you don't need additional organizers like a Maxpedition pouch.
- They are small (as opposed to wide) allowing you to move unhindered in crowds

And yeah, if I can find equivalent/better gear that is lighter, I go for it. I have to carry it all the time.
If you are talking about those ridiculous "tactical" backpacks with molle webbing (which no one uses but adds tons of weight) all over... I have no idea :D

I was talking about the tactical backpacks.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Syncop8r on December 04, 2017, 11:01:10 PM
Sure the new packs might have bells and whistles, but an old Alice pack will do the job and won't be an eyesore.
No, but they will give you a backsore. External frames? Horrible. Ancient technology that puts the weight on your back instead of your hips. Yuck. Never going near one again.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: ducttapetech on December 05, 2017, 02:10:27 AM
Sure the new packs might have bells and whistles, but an old Alice pack will do the job and won't be an eyesore.
No, but they will give you a backsore. External frames? Horrible. Ancient technology that puts the weight on your back instead of your hips. Yuck. Never going near one again.
I am not sure about yours, but mine never gave me a back sore. The internal frame are way to hot on my back. But that just may be me.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: styx on December 05, 2017, 10:37:53 AM
Sure the new packs might have bells and whistles, but an old Alice pack will do the job and won't be an eyesore.
No, but they will give you a backsore. External frames? Horrible. Ancient technology that puts the weight on your back instead of your hips. Yuck. Never going near one again.

One thing that sucks is being younger and or injury free (at least when it comes to the back). I don't think about these things because they don't bother me.
Now this is a mild example of what I mean. All these packs are about 45 liters:
Karrimor Sabre 45 is 1.84kg  (tactical)
Kelty Redwing 44 is 1.40kg  (basic backpacking)
Gossmer gear Gorilla is 0.74kg  (ultra light backpacking)

Now these are just the ones I had on a spreadsheet since they are more reasonably priced and I'll be the first to admit that there are far worse examples out there of heavy backpacks (Eberlestock). On the other hand I'm not sure a lot of us would be jumping from joy with an UL pack simply due to the lighter materials that could be susceptible to breaking more easily
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Etherealicer on December 05, 2017, 10:39:16 AM
Can someone explain one other thing - why are some people spending very big sums of money (let us say over $500 or €500, depending on where we are) on backpacks that weight more than the contents of the bag put together (especially those 120liter "backpack" that requires a frame and straps and a hip belt which are all sold separately) but then count grams on eating utensils, folding knives (the back up for a fixed blade), fixed blade knives (have to be light to strike fast :facepalm: ) and just about everything else with the exception of a wool blanket which is often in itself heavier than most well rounded sleep systems of equal warmth can be?
Beats me about the packs. I just use an old ALICE pack I got for 25 bucks. Has a frame, light weight and tough as nails.
I do like wools blankets. But I use them when it is warmer and I don't need a bulky -30 sleeping bag.

If done right, even with wool blankets and older gear that is heavier, the pack with everything in it should only weigh about 25 to 30 pounds at most. Give or take on the climate.  Food and water is about the only thing that should really start to weigh the pack down. And that is just for camping. A BOB or 72 hour or what the hell ever they are called now will have more in it. But of course, it is a totally different situation. You may have kids with you or other factors.
I have said in a another thread before, people are really over thinking this anymore and are just going at each other. The thing is, it is you who is going to be using the bag and make the bag according to you skills and the things you like or are used to and make it to fit you needs.

That's what I've been saying for about a decade now. Sure the new packs might have bells and whistles, but an old Alice pack will do the job and won't be an eyesore. Now I don't have anything against a bit of extra weight but if I'm willing to take heavy items when there are alternatives that are lighter, just as good and oddly in the same price range then I certainly shouldn't be taking compromises on the rest of the gear. A plastic spoon is maybe 3 grams, a spoon from my kitchen is about 24. Sure I'd save 21 grams but if I'm willing to not save 1200 with other choices, then those 21 grams aren't that big of a deal.

Can someone explain one other thing - why are some people spending very big sums of money (let us say over $500 or €500, depending on where we are) on backpacks that weight more than the contents of the bag put together (especially those 120liter "backpack" that requires a frame and straps and a hip belt which are all sold separately) but then count grams on eating utensils, folding knives (the back up for a fixed blade), fixed blade knives (have to be light to strike fast :facepalm: ) and just about everything else with the exception of a wool blanket which is often in itself heavier than most well rounded sleep systems of equal warmth can be?
I cannot talk about other people... but I own two EVOC backpacks (10 (https://www.evocsports.com/products/backpacks/cc-10l) & 20 (https://www.evocsports.com/products/backpacks/fr-trail-team-20l)L). They are both fairly heavy and fairly expensive. They are heavy due to the many pockets on the inside, letting you organize stuff (Ok, the 20L is also heavy because it has a back protector built in, not the worst idea when you cycle on icy roads).

CON
- Heavy
- Expensive

PRO
- Excellent quality and waterproof (the 20L has a built in water cover)
- The many pockets/sleeves let you organize your gear for easy access and saves you some weight as you don't need additional organizers like a Maxpedition pouch.
- They are small (as opposed to wide) allowing you to move unhindered in crowds

And yeah, if I can find equivalent/better gear that is lighter, I go for it. I have to carry it all the time.
If you are talking about those ridiculous "tactical" backpacks with molle webbing (which no one uses but adds tons of weight) all over... I have no idea :D

I was talking about the tactical backpacks.
I cannot help you with that. Tactical and camo seem extremely counter-productive in emergency situations.

Being seen avoids a great deal dangers
Being seen allows for being rescued
And as much as we like to be "self reliant", most emergencies require people to work together, or are at least far easier resolved when collaborating.

I mean most "preppers" seem to have a rather skewed perspective. There is a far bigger chance of getting run over by a car, than getting robbed. Chances of bodily harm or death is even greater with car accidents than robberies.
Furthermore, the "tough" look actually makes you a target for robberies, rather than deterring others. Because, a "prepper" will carry emergency cash and very likely he has some expensive gear on him (looking at knife prices / guns are among the most popular things to steal). Whereas Joe Average might just have a pack of gum.

I virtually see no benefit to camo/tactical clothing/gear.


Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Syncop8r on December 05, 2017, 11:17:34 AM
I first started hiking with this model of pack. It was only 45 litres but it felt like 100kg.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: ducttapetech on December 05, 2017, 11:23:25 AM
Quote from: Etherealicer

I virtually see no benefit to camo/tactical clothing/gear.[/quote

It is great for hunting and I can get the stuff at a military surplus store for a fraction of the cost than what Real Tree and Mossy Oak stuff is going for. I do wish some of the tactical stuff would come in different colors so it does not look so tactical. Some of the stuff is very versatile and practical.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Syncop8r on December 05, 2017, 11:32:51 AM
I used something like this https://www.armyandoutdoors.co.nz/collections/hiking-packs/products/usgi-large-alice-pack in the army, except it didn't have a hipbelt. As bad as the previous one but had some hot spots that would dig in.
I prefer this (below left)... 75 litres and you don't feel you are carrying much.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Syncop8r on December 05, 2017, 11:38:52 AM
I virtually see no benefit to camo/tactical clothing/gear.
It is great for hunting and I can get the stuff at a military surplus store for a fraction of the cost than what Real Tree and Mossy Oak stuff is going for. I do wish some of the tactical stuff would come in different colors so it does not look so tactical. Some of the stuff is very versatile and practical.
A lot of military equipment is rugged and well made. I too try to find less "tactical" stuff.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: styx on December 05, 2017, 01:12:45 PM
I know in Europe the Dutch military backpacks are held in high esteem

Has anyone tried those old style packs like the Fjallraven Rucksack No. 21 or the Greenland Backpack? Not the best weight wise but I still remember seeing old backpackers and hikers with those and at least one metal cup dangling on the outside
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Etherealicer on December 05, 2017, 02:08:59 PM
I virtually see no benefit to camo/tactical clothing/gear.
It is great for hunting and I can get the stuff at a military surplus store for a fraction of the cost than what Real Tree and Mossy Oak stuff is going for. I do wish some of the tactical stuff would come in different colors so it does not look so tactical. Some of the stuff is very versatile and practical.
A lot of military equipment is rugged and well made. I too try to find less "tactical" stuff.
Personally, I feel that most civilian gear is better value for the money. Military gear usually is heavy, three generations behind on tech and fairly expensive (they can't sell it cheaper to the civilian, than they do to the military and the military is always overpaying). Hunters, at least around here, like to add some orange to their "camo" because they don't want to be invisible to other humans, just their prey.

That said I think the difference is mindset. Why do you buy military gear. The intention is neither to look tactical nor to have camo, but to have the best gear for the day ahead. The benefit is neither tactical nor camo to you either, the benefit is quality and value.
Either way, at the end of the day, there are two things that matter:
- are you comfortable in the cloth you are wearing / with the gear you are carrying?
- are you comfortable with the image you are projecting?
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: pomsbz on December 05, 2017, 02:27:39 PM
Having had to literally run for it with my family from a forest fire which came to 50 yards from the house and having sat in the bomb shelters while rockets fell as well as being cut off by heavy snow in a city totally unequipped for it - I have spent a while thinking about this whole thing.

GHB. I have a 'get home bag'. It's the bag I carry every day to 'get home' with. Unless you are required to cross country to get home, I fail to see what on earth you could need differently should you have to walk. Let's be real. You will be getting home through the city. So extensive fire starter options, tarps, extensive cordage, etc - it's all irrelevant. Silly. I've never understood a GHB build that is in essence a BoB.

Another point. In any kind of SHTF situation you want to be ignored. Passed on by the soldiers or jumpy paramilitary type cops and ignored by the gangs. Tactical anything is beyond stupid. I don't begin to get it. If you want to get out of town in a really hot or tense situation, put your gear into some plastic bags, roll around on the ground till you're filthy and stoop as you walk. Who notices or bothers a tramp?

Gear. Honestly, you don't need all that stuff. No really. My entire personal camping/BoB kit, including sleep, shelter, cooking, hygiene, light, FAK is less than 10 pounds and I carry it in a beat up and dusty messenger bag. If you expect to be comfortable and relaxed while bugging out you are very naively assuming that you are not going to be a prime target for thieving gangs as a result. 10 desperate people thugs vs your glock or AR when you're surprised at night? Don't believe it. They will be armed too.

Bug Out. Are we all alone? No families? No kids? Really? I've got a wife and 3 kids. I can't 'bug out' with gear for all of us in a single backpack. Bugging out for real is far less romantic and far more difficult. After the forest fire incident I rethought out a bunch of stuff to this end.

Where are you going? Are you sure that bugging out is better than bugging in? A city, even a ruined one, will provide far more possibilities for the urbanite, probably far safer than the outdoors as well. Have you scouted routes, planned fail safe if those routes are blocked? Are you sure you will be able to stay at the locations you have chosen, are you sure that if the SHTF your locations will not have already been bombed or napalmed to dust, your water sources contaminated beyond filtration, etc? What are you going to do after 72 hours when your food/gear runs out? Should you not have been on the move constantly trying to get to safety rather than trying to battle it out in the anarchy of what the woods will turn into?

Another thing which I didn't realise until two weeks ago when I was admitted into hospital with a raging infection in my leg caused by a single mosquito bite triggering cellulitis. An infection that a century ago would almost certainly have killed me and I'm still a few years shy of 40. I've been on IV antibiotics for 2 weeks, two surgeries and now 6 weeks more of antibiotics. Without civilisation I would be dead. We do not have the anti body systems to survive as a species long term outdoors without the protection of the group. Neither did our forefathers even in groups given their mortality rates and life expectancy. Be careful of what you wish for. Leaving civilisation behind could be far more 'real' than you could possibly imagine.

Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: pomsbz on December 05, 2017, 02:35:09 PM
On an aside, still looking for a good cordage option. I find paracord expensive and slippy in knots and don't want tarred line. I saw mention of baling twine. Anyone ever used it?
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: lister on December 05, 2017, 02:37:33 PM
I think that most elaborate bug out bags, get home bags, 72 hour kits, truckloads of concealed carry weapons and EDC are a kind of role playing and escapism. I don't pretend that my EDC is any different. There is my personal narrative behind it. Sure it is also actually useful, but that is likewise a part of the narrative. A story of who I think I am and/or would like to be. If you look at much of these things in this way they make much more sense.  :D
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: ducttapetech on December 05, 2017, 02:53:30 PM
On an aside, still looking for a good cordage option. I find paracord expensive and slippy in knots and don't want tarred line. I saw mention of baling twine. Anyone ever used it?
Jute twine is great. Also makes a great fire starter. Baling twine is ok too, but after a few uses use need a new piece. Also makes for great fire starter, but be careful,  it is treated to keep bugs and mice away.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: pomsbz on December 05, 2017, 02:59:16 PM
On an aside, still looking for a good cordage option. I find paracord expensive and slippy in knots and don't want tarred line. I saw mention of baling twine. Anyone ever used it?
Jute twine is great. Also makes a great fire starter. Baling twine is ok too, but after a few uses use need a new piece. Also makes for great fire starter, but be careful,  it is treated to keep bugs and mice away.

Jute is bulky for the strength you get. I don't mind re-usability problems, why would treatment against bugs be a problem? Does it out gas dangerously or something?
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: ducttapetech on December 05, 2017, 03:05:51 PM
On an aside, still looking for a good cordage option. I find paracord expensive and slippy in knots and don't want tarred line. I saw mention of baling twine. Anyone ever used it?
Jute twine is great. Also makes a great fire starter. Baling twine is ok too, but after a few uses use need a new piece. Also makes for great fire starter, but be careful,  it is treated to keep bugs and mice away.

Jute is bulky for the strength you get. I don't mind re-usability problems, why would treatment against bugs be a problem? Does it out gas dangerously or something?
Only if it burns nothing crazy but still don't breath the smoke.. 20000 baler twine is about the same thickness as jute and 9000 is about twice as thick as 20000 baler twine.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: firiki on December 05, 2017, 04:15:38 PM
On an aside, still looking for a good cordage option.

Dyneema cord. Expensive but pretty strong and it doesn't slip. It still can break at the knots, though.

Another option would be marine use cords. Those things are tough  :salute:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: pomsbz on December 05, 2017, 04:52:51 PM
On an aside, still looking for a good cordage option.

Dyneema cord. Expensive but pretty strong and it doesn't slip. It still can break at the knots, though.

Another option would be marine use cords. Those things are tough  :salute:

I don't need particularly strong, I currently use 275 paracord to give an idea. I had a tarp up on my balcony all of last winter tied up with 275, lasted months of rain and wind. I just find that knots slip easily with the stuff, the cord doesn't bind into itself very well in the knot.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: styx on December 05, 2017, 09:55:42 PM
On an aside, still looking for a good cordage option. I find paracord expensive and slippy in knots and don't want tarred line. I saw mention of baling twine. Anyone ever used it?
Jute twine is great. Also makes a great fire starter. Baling twine is ok too, but after a few uses use need a new piece. Also makes for great fire starter, but be careful,  it is treated to keep bugs and mice away.

Jute is also biodegradable so even if you leave some behind it isn't a problem
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Lynn LeFey on December 05, 2017, 10:46:04 PM
Yeah, i'm a pretty big fan of Jute. If it's not strong enough, you can double/triple it. As pointed out, it's biodegradable. It also makes good firestarting material, is super cheap, and readily available.

Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: WWW on December 06, 2017, 12:39:35 AM
Since we're talking cordage, what is exactly this bankline? I was looking it up and heard someone saying it is some kind of nylon cordage with some sort of coating and that knots don't come undone very easily. The thread exchange states that it is polypropylene and gives many of the usages, but where and how it is traditionally used?
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Lynn LeFey on December 06, 2017, 01:08:55 AM
It's used for bankline fishing.

https://www.thesurvivalistblog.net/survival-fishing-techniques-bank-lines/
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: ducttapetech on December 06, 2017, 01:31:41 AM
It is also known as mariners cord and was used on ships back in the day. Only then it was natural cordage and tar was used to protect the cord from water and salt.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: WoodsDuck on December 06, 2017, 05:36:58 AM
Just a heads up for anyone interested in a good titanium spork; TOAKS offers models with various handle lengths, and the newer ones have polished bowls.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Lynn LeFey on December 06, 2017, 06:06:11 AM
I think someone got the idea from my original post that I hate sporks. I don't. I hate short handled eating utensils, and unpolished bowls. The long-handled polished TOAKS sporks are fine, IMO.

Just to be clear. :D
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: WoodsDuck on December 06, 2017, 06:14:54 AM
I think someone got the idea from my original post that I hate sporks. I don't. I hate short handled eating utensils, and unpolished bowls. The long-handled polished TOAKS sporks are fine, IMO.

Just to be clear. :D

I think you made your point well, actually. Just occurred to me that some might not know what some good alternatives are to the less practical options out there.

I own several sporks, but all of mine are plastic. Sea to Summit and Light My Fire models, specifically. They function well enough, and I wash them between uses. But I just use them when I need to pack a lunch somewhere, not so much in the wilderness.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: pomsbz on December 06, 2017, 07:07:25 AM
I actually really like my Ti LMF spork. A full spoon and fork on either end. Zero compromises and pleasant to eat with.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: styx on December 06, 2017, 10:40:45 AM
I actually really like my Ti LMF spork. A full spoon and fork on either end. Zero compromises and pleasant to eat with.

Never having used an LMF spork, they seem a bit clunky. No awkwardness when you use 'em?
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Gerhard Gerber on December 06, 2017, 10:47:40 AM
Some valid points raised  :salute:

The worst I ever saw somebody's legs kicked out from under him was a reply to the dude's BOB gear list, it was rightly pointed out that he would not even be able to carry the load out of the city in which he resided.....  :facepalm:

I now value the ability to walk long distances more than gear, and my corporate office worker BOB is my EDC, most importantly for the environment I think the money in my little cash stash.....
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: pomsbz on December 06, 2017, 10:53:35 AM
I actually really like my Ti LMF spork. A full spoon and fork on either end. Zero compromises and pleasant to eat with.

Never having used an LMF spork, they seem a bit clunky. No awkwardness when you use 'em?
Really not actually.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Gerhard Gerber on December 06, 2017, 10:55:23 AM
Oh, and......paracord  :facepalm:

I have a few hanks and I use them a lot..........but not for general cordage.

My favourite is a simple black nylon rope a bit thinner and IMO much more versatile than paracord.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Lynn LeFey on December 06, 2017, 05:00:48 PM
The worst I ever saw somebody's legs kicked out from under him was a reply to the dude's BOB gear list, it was rightly pointed out that he would not even be able to carry the load out of the city in which he resided.....  :facepalm:

I have a general goal of my emergency bag in my car not being more than 20 lbs. I know for a certain, tested fact that I can walk 8 miles on a moderate difficulty hiking trail with it on. I assume I can walk a lot farther, but 8 miles was the length of the trail.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: WWW on December 06, 2017, 09:03:03 PM
It's used for bankline fishing.

https://www.thesurvivalistblog.net/survival-fishing-techniques-bank-lines/

Oooohhh!! Bank line fishing, now I get it. Thanks for clarifying!


It is also known as mariners cord and was used on ships back in the day. Only then it was natural cordage and tar was used to protect the cord from water and salt.

Yeah, I've heard the mariners cord/twine name come up a couple of times but I thought it to be something different, thanks for the info mate.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: getahl on December 09, 2017, 06:49:57 AM
The Ti Sea to Summit spork that was posted earlier works just dandy in my lunch pail for work. Its companions are a bright orange paring knife, with cute little oranges on the white blade, and a 6x4 or so cutting board. I can't recall where I bought it, or for how much, but its been used a couple times a week for about seven or eight years, and the matte finish hasn't come off.

I have a Ti LMF spork, too. I dug the orange plastic one I had, until the tines of the fork started to snap off. The one with a spoon on one end, a fork on the other. I bought the Ti one to replace orange one after it retired, and its the bee's knees. Haven't used it or seen it recently, though. Wonder where it got off to...

Cordage - I like twine. It's like a dollar for 36 yards of the stuff. Paracord is neat, but I don't have much use for it. I purchased a few hanks in the last decade - 100 feet each of OD, orange, and black. I just ran out of the OD cord maybe two or three years ago, I've used maybe 20 feet of the black, and the orange is untouched. I just don't use it often.

I have a couple of those blue tarps. I've used one as a place mat for my tent, or to spray paint something in the backyard.

As you can probably guess, I don't have a GHB or Bug Out bag. I currently work about 5 miles from home, which I can walk in about 2 hours (guesstimate). All I would really need is water, and a bit of cell reception to arrange for someone to pick up my children from school. Beyond that, I'm not going anywhere. I'm married with two children. Most of my family is within 20 miles of my house. I have a daughter with a medical condition that requires two separate medication, twice per day, both of which need to be refrigerated. I have a dog, too. Beyond getting home, I'm not going anywhere. Accounting for my family,  making sure medicine stays cold (chemical ice packs and a small cooler will help with this), and ensuring water and food are my prime considerations.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Lynn LeFey on December 09, 2017, 02:50:58 PM
Both of the problems I have with the Eat'n tool are only important to emergency bags. If you're not in a place where you can clean it with hot soapy water, and if you need to consume any eat-in-bag type foods most often packed into emergency bags or backpacking setups.

My husband has an Eat'n tool he takes to work with him for those times when he runs out of the office to grab a lunch and forgets utensils. And yes, it's titanium. It was a birthday gift, and the absurdness of the titanium was part of the fun of it.

I don't mind the Sea To Summit spork as much, since it has a decent handle, but it still has the unpolished bowl, so outside of a place where cleaning is easy, I'd want one with a polished bowl.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Blackbeard on January 02, 2018, 11:39:46 AM
Lol, just saw this thread, all I know is if you wear one of those ridiculous neck scarf things you are a dork, I remember seeing one of those dual survival shows and the guy walks around with that stupid thing in the heat, I don't care what the reasoning is, giant dork

Don't even get me started about the jackass who goes around barefoot
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Zed on January 02, 2018, 12:56:20 PM
love it Lynn,I couldn't of written it better myself,as for battoning  :rant: don't even get me started on that subject  :D
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: styx on January 02, 2018, 01:42:15 PM
love it Lynn,I couldn't of written it better myself,as for battoning  :rant: don't even get me started on that subject  :D

please start
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: pomsbz on January 02, 2018, 01:43:54 PM
love it Lynn,I couldn't of written it better myself,as for battoning  :rant: don't even get me started on that subject  :D

please start

+1
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Zed on January 02, 2018, 02:01:21 PM
love it Lynn,I couldn't of written it better myself,as for battoning  :rant: don't even get me started on that subject  :D

please start

+1

I did write this on the first page,about endless YouTube videos of people breaking Moras while battoning wood that's to big and then moaning about the knife , and praising there expensive knife that they just take pretty photos of  :D the main. problem is people follow trends and not what actually is tried and trusted,
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: theonew on January 02, 2018, 06:25:36 PM
Fun read thanks :salute:
While not for self defense or batoning per se, I don't even like to go to a picnic without having a fixed blade knife. Simpler, sturdier and easier to keep clean and dry. While I have a silly amount of expensive fixed blades, ranging in size from pocket to zombie killers, a simple Mora is enough for me but not having a fixed blade at all would make me very edgy :D
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: MadPlumbarian on January 02, 2018, 06:48:33 PM
Interesting little post, I have a few forks, spoons, sporks, and other eating setups, of course each time I go somewhere that has plastic sealed utensils I’ll pocket a few extra..
JR
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: styx on January 02, 2018, 08:30:56 PM
love it Lynn,I couldn't of written it better myself,as for battoning  :rant: don't even get me started on that subject  :D

please start

+1

I did write this on the first page,about endless YouTube videos of people breaking Moras while battoning wood that's to big and then moaning about the knife , and praising there expensive knife that they just take pretty photos of  :D the main. problem is people follow trends and not what actually is tried and trusted,

sure but your rants are funs
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: eamo on January 02, 2018, 08:57:30 PM
love it Lynn,I couldn't of written it better myself,as for battoning  :rant: don't even get me started on that subject  :D

please start

+1

I did write this on the first page,about endless YouTube videos of people breaking Moras while battoning wood that's to big and then moaning about the knife , and praising there expensive knife that they just take pretty photos of  :D the main. problem is people follow trends and not what actually is tried and trusted,

sure but your rants are funs

 :rofl:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Pacu on January 02, 2018, 10:22:17 PM
Can you baton with a spork for weight savings?
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: styx on January 02, 2018, 11:32:47 PM
Can you baton with a spork for weight savings?

only if the bowl isn't polished
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Gerhard Gerber on January 03, 2018, 10:55:35 AM
love it Lynn,I couldn't of written it better myself,as for battoning  :rant: don't even get me started on that subject  :D

please start

+1

I did write this on the first page,about endless YouTube videos of people breaking Moras while battoning wood that's to big and then moaning about the knife , and praising there expensive knife that they just take pretty photos of  :D the main. problem is people follow trends and not what actually is tried and trusted,

Ahhhhhh, but you forget they are a)idiots or b)trying to break the knife.

My cousin rented a little hall for her 40th birthday party, food & drinks inside and they got a heap of flooring cut-offs to make a bonfire outside where the smokers hung out.
All we had was a BIC and my knife, made some feather sticks (yes really  :P ) which we could light with the BIC, but we also needed thinner sticks to catch fire from the feathers........
 :pok:
So that was the night I saved the day by battoning with my Byrd Meadowlark 2........ :cheers:  :rofl:
Simply opened the blade halfway and battoned with it unlocked  :salute: No worries......
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: eamo on January 03, 2018, 03:17:12 PM

So that was the night I saved the day by battoning with my Byrd Meadowlark 2........ :cheers:  :rofl:
Simply opened the blade halfway and battoned with it unlocked  :salute: No worries......

colour me impressed :)
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: hiraethus on January 03, 2018, 03:38:21 PM
So that was the night I saved the day by battoning with my Byrd Meadowlark 2........ :cheers:  :rofl:

I did the same with my Spyderco Terzuola slip joint over christmas while trying to light the fire in the living room. :salute:

Show content
It was cold and wet outside and I couldn't be bothered to walk down to the garage to find my axe, and all I was doing was splitting very dry softwood kindling into pencil-sized pieces to make it easier to light. :D
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Etherealicer on January 03, 2018, 05:04:47 PM
I think we need a "Build Lynn a BOB" contest... no price for the winner, but the looser gets a through whacking :D
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: styx on January 03, 2018, 07:46:24 PM
I think we need a "Build Lynn a BOB" contest... no price for the winner, but the looser gets a through whacking :D

I support this idea
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Lynn LeFey on January 03, 2018, 08:13:36 PM
I think we need a "Build Lynn a BOB" contest... no price for the winner, but the looser gets a through whacking :D

I support this idea

I 100% agree.  :D
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Lynn LeFey on January 17, 2018, 05:30:30 PM
Molle.

I forgot how SICK I am of molle bullsmurf all over otherwise functional and non-idiotic looking bags.

And while we're at it...
Those big honkin ridiculously oversized bags.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAtzN_ScKXY
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: pomsbz on January 17, 2018, 06:51:39 PM
Molle.

I forgot how SICK I am of molle bullsmurf all over otherwise functional and non-idiotic looking bags.

And while we're at it...
Those big honkin ridiculously oversized bags.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAtzN_ScKXY
I'm with you on molle! You might as well wear a big sign saying 'I'm a tacti-cool mall ninja, shoot me first!' :D
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Don Pablo on January 17, 2018, 06:55:01 PM
Molle.

I forgot how SICK I am of molle bullsmurf all over otherwise functional and non-idiotic looking bags.

And while we're at it...
Those big honkin ridiculously oversized bags.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAtzN_ScKXY
I'm with you on molle! You might as well wear a big sign saying 'I'm a tacti-cool mall ninja, shoot me first!' :D
Big or not, I want that backpack!  :ahhh :drool:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: pomsbz on January 17, 2018, 07:40:09 PM
Molle.

I forgot how SICK I am of molle bullsmurf all over otherwise functional and non-idiotic looking bags.

And while we're at it...
Those big honkin ridiculously oversized bags.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAtzN_ScKXY
I'm with you on molle! You might as well wear a big sign saying 'I'm a tacti-cool mall ninja, shoot me first!' :D
Big or not, I want that backpack!  :ahhh :drool:

I want the pants....
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: styx on January 17, 2018, 08:56:50 PM
it would be harder to get shot with an actual target on your back
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Alan K. on January 18, 2018, 04:49:16 AM
Molle.

I forgot how SICK I am of molle bullsmurf all over otherwise functional and non-idiotic looking bags.

And while we're at it...
Those big honkin ridiculously oversized bags.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAtzN_ScKXY
I'm with you on molle! You might as well wear a big sign saying 'I'm a tacti-cool mall ninja, shoot me first!' :D
That's why I went as anti tacticool as I could get with my EDC bag.  Nobody pays much attention to or messes with the 6'2" 315 pound guy with the Hello Kitty bag.  With just a few extra things added my EDC bag could easily become a get home or bug out bag, although it is kind of tight already.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Lynn LeFey on January 18, 2018, 05:03:08 AM
Nice. Apparently bags with kid stuff on it are much less likely to be stolen, so actually, that's a pretty good call, if you can get over the 'I'm not cool looking' issue.

Also, I see you're carrying one of those 'books'. How is the battery life on it? :D
In all seriousness, I wish I saw more books in folks' bags. Great downtime entertainment, and a few other uses as well. Might wanna consider a ziplock bag for it, though, in case of rain.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Lynn LeFey on January 18, 2018, 05:08:16 AM
Another annoying thing I hear in videos about bug out bags...

"Weighs nothing"
Usually something like "I carry 200 feet of paracord because it weighs nothing and..."

Please take all of your 'weighs nothing' crap and put it on a scale, and tell me what the scale says. I BET it doesn't say 0.0, in any weight unit unless you have a very bad scale. It always seems like folks have about five pounds of 'weighs nothing' in their packs.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: pomsbz on January 18, 2018, 07:54:40 AM
Nice. Apparently bags with kid stuff on it are much less likely to be stolen, so actually, that's a pretty good call, if you can get over the 'I'm not cool looking' issue.

Also, I see you're carrying one of those 'books'. How is the battery life on it? :D
In all seriousness, I wish I saw more books in folks' bags. Great downtime entertainment, and a few other uses as well. Might wanna consider a ziplock bag for it, though, in case of rain.

I'm actually thinking of going the other way. I have 3 books in my bag, albeit they are small but they create bulk that I would far prefer to lose. I don't use a smartphone so I've been thinking along the lines of a kindle type device. Not had the spare cash though.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: israelpiper on January 18, 2018, 07:45:21 PM
Thought-provoking post. Many thanks. It all seems obvious yet doesn't manage to be so. Partly--only partly--because so many YouTube (or is it "YouToo") videos are (be honest) quasi-commercial, or at least represent vested interests. A sparse, plain kit wouldn't get any Youtuber much free gear to review. So we see all these 72hr rucksacks with fun but irrelevant kit. All of which may be lovely and even perfect in some other context.

North American 72hr "bugout" bags intrigue me. With the density of Black Holes, and incredible variety of paraphernalia. My philosophy is: Make sure you can walk fast, and even do a slow jog with what you have packed, for at least part of your strategic retreat. In Israel the main problem is going to be major missile attacks. So if the army orders evac in your neighbourhood or a larger area, what would be of high value in a 72hr pack?

I have a pack I keep up to date with mostly supplies and equipment to clean wounds, removing obvious shrapnel and building debris, staunch the bleeding, and wrap the wound. I have a long, slender spring loaded needle pliers (better than many tweezers), a few SAKs kept in a sterile condition, lots of large wound bandages, gauze rolls, large elastic bandages, tourniquets, sterilizing agents, splints, sterile water, sterile eye wash, OTC pain reliever and registered mild opiates. Space blanket to warm an injured person. I am forgetting a few things. A compass--of marginal use short term. Oh--a basic fire starting kit, small but versatile. Ferro rods and lighters and petrolatum-soaked cotton balls.

That's our 72hr pack environment. Foreign enemy. Missiles. With nearly 200,000 in the army, and almost another half-million trained reserves, we will stay community minded and organized. Help is near. A good pack can help any medical personnel in your neighbourhood if buildings have been hit and wounded are in need. Doctors and nurses and paramedics don't usually walk around with gear when off duty. A kit which will help medical pros to debride, sterilize, staunch and close wounds will be a God-send. Mini chess sets,  tactical folders, and AR-7s not so much. For the hypoglycemic out there, seal packs of dried fruit. Sugar is a poor energy food, but will handle those who get low blood sugar easily. I also keep sachets of electrolyte powder. I make tofu jerky, but I always end up eating it. 

I often wonder what the US would be like with 320 millions all bugging out at once. And reactions to local versus regional versus national disasters. Is your army set-up to deploy internally at moment's notice?

An old friend of mine in America figures a $4 Ozark Trail knife, a couple of packets of cheap cigars, and some beef jerky should get him through 72hrs. And he is a retired career cop.       
       
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Alan K. on January 18, 2018, 11:31:32 PM
I do have a personal first aid kit and a larger trauma kit as you described, but my EDC bag and my 72 hour bag are both mostly items for my comfort and convenience much more than they would be for any sort of escape and evasion or wilderness survival.  I've never believed in bugging out, except as a last resort, because everything I need is at home and I can't carry everything.

My 72 hour bag contains items that would see me through a time when I am away from modern civilization (stores) such as extra shoelaces and a tube of shoe goo, a compact tool kit, extra flashlights and batteries, meal replacement bars and a roll of toilet paper!  I have created this kit over years of working 24 hour shifts where I can't leave the property, and while participating in historical reenactments that are often on the weekends but too far away from the nearest stores so you have to have everything you may need with you before you start.

Anyone who thinks they can walk out of the city by themselves and survive in the wilderness with what's on their back just isn't going to last very long in the real world, and that is the painful truth.  If you give it the more realistic name of get home bag and your goal is actually getting home in an urban environment, then you're more likely to need tools such as a pry bar and bolt cutters than you are things like fishing line or fire starters.  I had this discussion with a guy who lived in San Francisco and worked in Oakland.  He was genuinely concerned that after an earthquake the roads would be unusable and he would have to walk to get to his kids at school or to his wife at home.  His get home kit included a folding kayak in case that was the only way to get back across the bay.  You have to consider your actual need and equip yourself appropriately.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: israelpiper on January 19, 2018, 08:07:26 AM
Indeed, such kit needs to be customized to one's circumstance. People with young children and elderly at home have a tremendous responsibility compared to a mobile mid-60s couple like my wife and I. Young children and frail elderly cannot evaluate and act alone.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: pomsbz on January 19, 2018, 08:13:23 AM
Fully agree to the three above posts!

Israelpiper (do you play the pipes or smoke one?) I think our situation is relatively unique. Being such a tiny country and having nowhere to run to. There is practically no refugee potential crisis, what direction would we turn to other than the sea? Where is there to hide while the forests are burning and the deserts provide no cover? I'm too young of course but I would be interested in what happened in the Golan during the Yom Kippur war when the Syrians attacked, there must have been settlements that were overrun. What did the people do? Did they flee, did they stay put, in what direction did they go and what if anything did they have the time to take? What kind of resettlement did they have while the war was still in progress? I think studies of that kind would be of the most use for our location. 

Personally I have an 'overnight camping' bag in my car. It has what I need should I need to stay overnight in the car, at work or in a forest up north. Yes it could be a 'BoB' but only if I believed that 'bugging out' as a concept was to truly exist here. Heck I've got a wife and three children and I'm disabled....
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Alan K. on January 19, 2018, 09:00:05 AM
If you've prepared a container with what you think you will need to survive, away from home and unsupported for 72 hours, and you keep that container in your car or office or easily accessible wherever you think you're most likely to need it, then it really doesn't matter what you call the container does it?

Pomsbz, in 1973 those who evacuated may not have brought the right things but at least they survived to return to their homes. Today we have more things that we are dependent on such as our computers and cell phones and we've had years to learn from previous catastrophes what we need to do before, during and after.  Since  you are concerned with what to take in an evacuation see response 20 to this thread, https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,74942.msg1598533.html#msg1598533  I made a list of what's really important, based on my own experiences.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: pomsbz on January 19, 2018, 09:26:08 AM
If you've prepared a container with what you think you will need to survive, away from home and unsupported for 72 hours, and you keep that container in your car or office or easily accessible wherever you think you're most likely to need it, then it really doesn't matter what you call the container does it?

Pomsbz, in 1973 those who evacuated may not have brought the right things but at least they survived to return to their homes. Today we have more things that we are dependent on such as our computers and cell phones and we've had years to learn from previous catastrophes what we need to do before, during and after.  Since  you are concerned with what to take in an evacuation see response 20 to this thread, https://forum.multitool.org/index.php/topic,74942.msg1598533.html#msg1598533  I made a list of what's really important, based on my own experiences.

It makes a difference as to a persons level of belief in their system. Most people with a BoB will probably have never tried bugging out with it and surviving 72 hours. Never mind planning multiple routes on foot to the 'outdoors', having the maps, etc. I think that is the demarcation between calling something a BoB and being somewhat more honest to yourself about it? Realising your limitations rather than living in a fantasy world?

I've had to bug out (actually evacuate) for real from a forest fire which brought into sharp relief the reality of leaving with your family when given just 1 minute's notice by the police. At the time we were totally unprepared, there was no warning as it started less than a kilometre away. I have given somewhat more thought to the concept since then.

Can I disagree somewhat as to our dependency on practical irrelevancies such as technology? We don't need them to survive. They will be useful for the psychological boost needed to survive. In a real doomsday prepper type situation phones and computers will be practically useless once there won't be the power and communications infrastructure. In a bug out situation, being able to show the kids a film to calm them down might be very useful. Still not essential though as long as the parents have a good fund of stories and games to play. I read an article on AoM a while back suggesting that a kindle would be a great survival tool simply because you can store a huge amount of instructional material in a tiny package for reference. Another thing I don't see anyone packing in their BoB's is entertainment. Even something as simple as a pack of cards, a pen and paper or a book. Most of us are urban creatures in an age of constant distraction. In a highly charged psychological condition the ability to take your mind off stuff might be invaluable. A kindle with a simple solar charger is a good solution methinks. Whether it will just act as bait for thieves and enemies in a refugee situation is another question.

Incidentally I remember that post of yours and found it very good.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: MadPlumbarian on January 19, 2018, 05:18:38 PM
One little test as what to pack in a bob, ditch the power for a week, if it doesn’t work or you don’t need it, it’s worthelss..you’d be surprised as to what’s worth packing, as I sit in the living room what’s good? All those movies, no, the lamps, no, all the electronics, no, the candles and lighter yeah, the pics wouldn’t do anything besides bring back memories, the couch or table, but I ain’t lugging them, nor the pillows, so only a candle and lighter.. move on to the kitchen, the fridge ain’t going to work, when we lost power for a week we weren’t here but we took totes and packed them full of snow and put them in the fridge, it worked, the stove, well I have a gas, it won’t work because it’s a electric click to start, but, with the lighter in the other room I can start the burners, only thing is I ain’t lugging that stove, but it was good to be able to cook so a mini stove would be good to carry, along with some fuel and a lighter, it’s like a domino effect, something in each room helps the other and so on, you just got to see what would work, what you would need, and is worth carrying?
JR
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Don Pablo on January 19, 2018, 06:20:22 PM
One little test as what to pack in a bob, ditch the power for a week, if it doesn’t work or you don’t need it, it’s worthelss..you’d be surprised as to what’s worth packing, as I sit in the living room what’s good? All those movies, no, the lamps, no, all the electronics, no, the candles and lighter yeah, the pics wouldn’t do anything besides bring back memories, the couch or table, but I ain’t lugging them, nor the pillows, so only a candle and lighter.. move on to the kitchen, the fridge ain’t going to work, when we lost power for a week we weren’t here but we took totes and packed them full of snow and put them in the fridge, it worked, the stove, well I have a gas, it won’t work because it’s a electric click to start, but, with the lighter in the other room I can start the burners, only thing is I ain’t lugging that stove, but it was good to be able to cook so a mini stove would be good to carry, along with some fuel and a lighter, it’s like a domino effect, something in each room helps the other and so on, you just got to see what would work, what you would need, and is worth carrying?
JR
What about when you run out of gas(for the stove)?
I mean, since you mentioned no power, its just fair to consider about a no gas scenario....
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: israelpiper on January 19, 2018, 06:41:40 PM
Fully agree to the three above posts!

Israelpiper (do you play the pipes or smoke one?) I think our situation is relatively unique. Being such a tiny country and having nowhere to run to. There is practically no refugee potential crisis, what direction would we turn to other than the sea? Where is there to hide while the forests are burning and the deserts provide no cover? I'm too young of course but I would be interested in what happened in the Golan during the Yom Kippur war when the Syrians attacked, there must have been settlements that were overrun. What did the people do? Did they flee, did they stay put, in what direction did they go and what if anything did they have the time to take? What kind of resettlement did they have while the war was still in progress? I think studies of that kind would be of the most use for our location. 

Personally I have an 'overnight camping' bag in my car. It has what I need should I need to stay overnight in the car, at work or in a forest up north. Yes it could be a 'BoB' but only if I believed that 'bugging out' as a concept was to truly exist here. Heck I've got a wife and three children and I'm disabled....

Yes, I have been teaching and composing for the Scottish Highland bagpipe for 40 years. Not a drop of Scots in me, though I briefly lived in Edinburgh, and I have visited Scotland quite a few times. I did once smoke a pipe for many years, preferring pure black Latakia tobacco. Gave it up in my late 50s.

Israel is a "last stand" nation. Leaving isn't a thought I'd ever entertain. Many here feel the same way, I am sure. What we may have to do is leave our homes or neighbourhoods on short notice in the event of a missile attack. Our army is a citizen conscript force, so it is us, and we are them.

I know the north from years of hiking on foot. From the top of the Kheirmon, to the lower Galilee, to Lake Kinneret--3000 meters up and 220 meters below sea level. I lived once on a kibbutz on the border with Lebanon, and on another one down in the middle of the Negev desert.

Preparedness is radically different in Israel from the US. We are very organized for disaster, and expect attack. We have an equipped large underground hospital in Haifa, an 8km long tunnel under Mount Karmel with a sealable ventilation system. The new train station in Jerusalem is 80m deep with steel blast doors, and only electric trains will use it, keeping the air clean. Tel Aviv too. All homes have a re-enforced safe room, or access to a near public shelter. Many large shopping centre garages are shelters. Everyone has a gas mask and an atropine auto-injector. We have three anti-missile systems, for low, medium and high level bogies (Iron Dome, Sling of David, The Arrow). The highest percent of first aid trained population in the world. A dense and rapidly growing rail system, and dramatically improved divided highway system, including the Trans-Israel Highway. An integrated military, with army, navy, air force, cyber warfare under a single command. Satellites overhead, nano-satellite capability, drones, cruise missiles, stealth subs, grannies who can field-strip an assault rifle in the dark in a rainstorm.   

What happened on the Golan in 1973? All civilians farm families were removed. Very short notice. Some could hear that mechanical music only a tank lover could appreciate. Families in the lowlands took them in.  Israel's 70 refurbished British Centurions that were then in place on the plateau held off 500 Soviet main battle tanks. Lots of 2km shots hit their marks, mostly bridging tanks. The Syrians fought excellently and bravely with better tanks, but the odds were against them. They threw in only 500 new tanks, and we threw in 70 old but superb Centurions, and had an unbeatable commander-in-chief. He inspired battle-hardened 29 year old battalion commander Colonel Avigdor Kahalani who stopped 150 tanks with his three. After three days of fighting, Israel now outnumbered even more, the Syrians saw a long row of giant angels standing in the Valley of Tears where the battle raged. A voice out of the heavens shouted "STOP ! توقف" and they turned around and went home.

A 72 hour bag is enough. Help is always near-by.   

Americans have a great volunteer spirit. Better than waiting on federal agencies. Many prepared people will help those who are not.  If I got stuck in a bomb shelter in America I'd hope someone had an extra stack of old Superman comics. Figure 10% or 20% of your bag for others, assuming a general disaster at hand.         
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: MadPlumbarian on January 19, 2018, 06:42:12 PM
One little test as what to pack in a bob, ditch the power for a week, if it doesn’t work or you don’t need it, it’s worthelss..you’d be surprised as to what’s worth packing, as I sit in the living room what’s good? All those movies, no, the lamps, no, all the electronics, no, the candles and lighter yeah, the pics wouldn’t do anything besides bring back memories, the couch or table, but I ain’t lugging them, nor the pillows, so only a candle and lighter.. move on to the kitchen, the fridge ain’t going to work, when we lost power for a week we weren’t here but we took totes and packed them full of snow and put them in the fridge, it worked, the stove, well I have a gas, it won’t work because it’s a electric click to start, but, with the lighter in the other room I can start the burners, only thing is I ain’t lugging that stove, but it was good to be able to cook so a mini stove would be good to carry, along with some fuel and a lighter, it’s like a domino effect, something in each room helps the other and so on, you just got to see what would work, what you would need, and is worth carrying?
JR
What about when you run out of gas(for the stove)?
I mean, since you mentioned no power, its just fair to consider about a no gas scenario....
True, but you could always go run to the store and get a gas, unlike electric, unless you work off of a generator, then you need nothing but gasoline. But still, what do you need to survive with no electricity? I mean you could have one of those little hand crank chargers or a solar to charge a phone, but like someone said services would probably be out..
JR
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Don Pablo on January 19, 2018, 06:48:56 PM
One little test as what to pack in a bob, ditch the power for a week, if it doesn’t work or you don’t need it, it’s worthelss..you’d be surprised as to what’s worth packing, as I sit in the living room what’s good? All those movies, no, the lamps, no, all the electronics, no, the candles and lighter yeah, the pics wouldn’t do anything besides bring back memories, the couch or table, but I ain’t lugging them, nor the pillows, so only a candle and lighter.. move on to the kitchen, the fridge ain’t going to work, when we lost power for a week we weren’t here but we took totes and packed them full of snow and put them in the fridge, it worked, the stove, well I have a gas, it won’t work because it’s a electric click to start, but, with the lighter in the other room I can start the burners, only thing is I ain’t lugging that stove, but it was good to be able to cook so a mini stove would be good to carry, along with some fuel and a lighter, it’s like a domino effect, something in each room helps the other and so on, you just got to see what would work, what you would need, and is worth carrying?
JR
What about when you run out of gas(for the stove)?
I mean, since you mentioned no power, its just fair to consider about a no gas scenario....
True, but you could always go run to the store and get a gas, unlike electric, unless you work off of a generator, then you need nothing but gasoline. But still, what do you need to survive with no electricity? I mean you could have one of those little hand crank chargers or a solar to charge a phone, but like someone said services would probably be out..
JR
Flashlights, Hearing aids, alternative wireless communication(satellite, radio), etc?

I love my Thrunite Ti3 and I'm deaf without my hearing aids.  :D
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: MadPlumbarian on January 19, 2018, 07:18:59 PM
One little test as what to pack in a bob, ditch the power for a week, if it doesn’t work or you don’t need it, it’s worthelss..you’d be surprised as to what’s worth packing, as I sit in the living room what’s good? All those movies, no, the lamps, no, all the electronics, no, the candles and lighter yeah, the pics wouldn’t do anything besides bring back memories, the couch or table, but I ain’t lugging them, nor the pillows, so only a candle and lighter.. move on to the kitchen, the fridge ain’t going to work, when we lost power for a week we weren’t here but we took totes and packed them full of snow and put them in the fridge, it worked, the stove, well I have a gas, it won’t work because it’s a electric click to start, but, with the lighter in the other room I can start the burners, only thing is I ain’t lugging that stove, but it was good to be able to cook so a mini stove would be good to carry, along with some fuel and a lighter, it’s like a domino effect, something in each room helps the other and so on, you just got to see what would work, what you would need, and is worth carrying?
JR
What about when you run out of gas(for the stove)?
I mean, since you mentioned no power, its just fair to consider about a no gas scenario....
True, but you could always go run to the store and get a gas, unlike electric, unless you work off of a generator, then you need nothing but gasoline. But still, what do you need to survive with no electricity? I mean you could have one of those little hand crank chargers or a solar to charge a phone, but like someone said services would probably be out..
JR
Flashlights, Hearing aids, alternative wireless communication(satellite, radio), etc?

I love my Thrunite Ti3 and I'm deaf without my hearing aids.  :D
Well that can be good to, at time I’d sure in hell take be deaf over this tinnitus, especially when it comes to these kids and the wife! lol..
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Don Pablo on January 19, 2018, 07:58:11 PM
One little test as what to pack in a bob, ditch the power for a week, if it doesn’t work or you don’t need it, it’s worthelss..you’d be surprised as to what’s worth packing, as I sit in the living room what’s good? All those movies, no, the lamps, no, all the electronics, no, the candles and lighter yeah, the pics wouldn’t do anything besides bring back memories, the couch or table, but I ain’t lugging them, nor the pillows, so only a candle and lighter.. move on to the kitchen, the fridge ain’t going to work, when we lost power for a week we weren’t here but we took totes and packed them full of snow and put them in the fridge, it worked, the stove, well I have a gas, it won’t work because it’s a electric click to start, but, with the lighter in the other room I can start the burners, only thing is I ain’t lugging that stove, but it was good to be able to cook so a mini stove would be good to carry, along with some fuel and a lighter, it’s like a domino effect, something in each room helps the other and so on, you just got to see what would work, what you would need, and is worth carrying?
JR
What about when you run out of gas(for the stove)?
I mean, since you mentioned no power, its just fair to consider about a no gas scenario....
True, but you could always go run to the store and get a gas, unlike electric, unless you work off of a generator, then you need nothing but gasoline. But still, what do you need to survive with no electricity? I mean you could have one of those little hand crank chargers or a solar to charge a phone, but like someone said services would probably be out..
JR
Flashlights, Hearing aids, alternative wireless communication(satellite, radio), etc?

I love my Thrunite Ti3 and I'm deaf without my hearing aids.  :D
Well that can be good to, at time I’d sure in hell take be deaf over this tinnitus, especially when it comes to these kids and the wife! lol..
Tinnitus? I get that also.  :facepalm: :rofl:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: pomsbz on January 20, 2018, 06:33:20 PM
Fully agree to the three above posts!

Israelpiper (do you play the pipes or smoke one?) I think our situation is relatively unique. Being such a tiny country and having nowhere to run to. There is practically no refugee potential crisis, what direction would we turn to other than the sea? Where is there to hide while the forests are burning and the deserts provide no cover? I'm too young of course but I would be interested in what happened in the Golan during the Yom Kippur war when the Syrians attacked, there must have been settlements that were overrun. What did the people do? Did they flee, did they stay put, in what direction did they go and what if anything did they have the time to take? What kind of resettlement did they have while the war was still in progress? I think studies of that kind would be of the most use for our location. 

Personally I have an 'overnight camping' bag in my car. It has what I need should I need to stay overnight in the car, at work or in a forest up north. Yes it could be a 'BoB' but only if I believed that 'bugging out' as a concept was to truly exist here. Heck I've got a wife and three children and I'm disabled....

Yes, I have been teaching and composing for the Scottish Highland bagpipe for 40 years. Not a drop of Scots in me, though I briefly lived in Edinburgh, and I have visited Scotland quite a few times. I did once smoke a pipe for many years, preferring pure black Latakia tobacco. Gave it up in my late 50s.

Israel is a "last stand" nation. Leaving isn't a thought I'd ever entertain. Many here feel the same way, I am sure. What we may have to do is leave our homes or neighbourhoods on short notice in the event of a missile attack. Our army is a citizen conscript force, so it is us, and we are them.

I know the north from years of hiking on foot. From the top of the Kheirmon, to the lower Galilee, to Lake Kinneret--3000 meters up and 220 meters below sea level. I lived once on a kibbutz on the border with Lebanon, and on another one down in the middle of the Negev desert.

Preparedness is radically different in Israel from the US. We are very organized for disaster, and expect attack. We have an equipped large underground hospital in Haifa, an 8km long tunnel under Mount Karmel with a sealable ventilation system. The new train station in Jerusalem is 80m deep with steel blast doors, and only electric trains will use it, keeping the air clean. Tel Aviv too. All homes have a re-enforced safe room, or access to a near public shelter. Many large shopping centre garages are shelters. Everyone has a gas mask and an atropine auto-injector. We have three anti-missile systems, for low, medium and high level bogies (Iron Dome, Sling of David, The Arrow). The highest percent of first aid trained population in the world. A dense and rapidly growing rail system, and dramatically improved divided highway system, including the Trans-Israel Highway. An integrated military, with army, navy, air force, cyber warfare under a single command. Satellites overhead, nano-satellite capability, drones, cruise missiles, stealth subs, grannies who can field-strip an assault rifle in the dark in a rainstorm.   

What happened on the Golan in 1973? All civilians farm families were removed. Very short notice. Some could hear that mechanical music only a tank lover could appreciate. Families in the lowlands took them in.  Israel's 70 refurbished British Centurions that were then in place on the plateau held off 500 Soviet main battle tanks. Lots of 2km shots hit their marks, mostly bridging tanks. The Syrians fought excellently and bravely with better tanks, but the odds were against them. They threw in only 500 new tanks, and we threw in 70 old but superb Centurions, and had an unbeatable commander-in-chief. He inspired battle-hardened 29 year old battalion commander Colonel Avigdor Kahalani who stopped 150 tanks with his three. After three days of fighting, Israel now outnumbered even more, the Syrians saw a long row of giant angels standing in the Valley of Tears where the battle raged. A voice out of the heavens shouted "STOP ! توقف" and they turned around and went home.

A 72 hour bag is enough. Help is always near-by.   

Americans have a great volunteer spirit. Better than waiting on federal agencies. Many prepared people will help those who are not.  If I got stuck in a bomb shelter in America I'd hope someone had an extra stack of old Superman comics. Figure 10% or 20% of your bag for others, assuming a general disaster at hand.       

Are you Israeli born? I've never heard of an Israeli bagpiper! Also asking cause your English is perfect. :) Both of my parents were from Glasgow, spent a lot of time in the Highlands when I was younger. Not a musical note in me though I'm afraid but I do love the pipes. My great grandfather in the Scots Guards would have gone over the top to them at the Somme. I can't stand latakia myself, tastes like burning rubber.  :D Thanks for the history stuff! I do wish they would get a move on and finish that new rail link from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, I drive past the works every day on the way to work in Jerusalme, man but they're digging it deep!
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Alan K. on January 21, 2018, 11:38:45 PM
Evacuating for 72 hours or trying to get home within 72 hours due to weather or some other local emergency is really a different mission than bugging out when you think you're never coming home again.  What is important to bring with you in a 72 hour kit are items of comfort, convenience and necessity of sufficient quantity and variety to support you until you can go home or until you get home.

If you believe you will never be able to return to your home you are bugging out.  If the global situation is such that you are going to try to survive in the bush then you probably will need more than you can carry on your back to make a successful transition.  If you can bug out to a new city then it is possible to start over with just the pack on your back as long as you have enough cash or barter items to purchase whatever else you need that you didn't carry with you.

Local events = shorter duration and help available from unaffected areas.
Global events = longer duration and less help or no help available from unaffected areas as there may not be any unaffected areas.

The greater the scope of the calamity the less likely there is to be help coming from other areas and the effects will last longer without help.  Hurricane Irma was a global event as far as Puerto Rico was concerned because the entire island was affected. Help would need to come from elsewhere, but the hurricane affected the entire Caribbean region. The result is they didn't get a lot of help and there are still people in rural areas of Puerto Rico without power and water and proper sanitation services 4 months after the Hurricane.

What's the point of all that?  It's to remind some people that a 72 hour bag is not the same thing as a bug out bag, because, there has been some confusion. (#Me too)  You couldn't survive bugging out if you were only prepared for 72 unsupported hours.  What if you couldn't return home or if home was not supported by infrastructure for 3000 + hours?  Any way, the original topic concerned bug out bags and we went off topic and got into 72 hour bags and I really think they are two different things.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Lynn LeFey on January 22, 2018, 03:54:58 AM
Any way, the original topic concerned bug out bags and we went off topic and got into 72 hour bags and I really think they are two different things.

uhhh... not exactly. The original post is about 72-hour bags. Those are 'bug out bags' or 'get home bags'. The long term bags are generally called INCH (I'm Never Coming Home) bags.

A Bug Out Bag is not specifically a duration, so I specified 72-hour bags in the initial post, exactly because definitions can be iffy.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Alan K. on January 22, 2018, 04:18:09 AM
Is the thread still on topic then? That is unusual for MTO. :think:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Lynn LeFey on January 22, 2018, 04:39:57 AM
I dunno. I started this to generate conversation, and in an attempt to seem amusing. :D

Where it goes from there is out of my hands.

Seems to be good conversation on the topic, though so...

But yeah, STRANGELY on topic for MTO.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: pomsbz on January 22, 2018, 01:07:51 PM
Is there a moderator or someone we can complain to about this 'on topic' malaise which seems to have infected the thread?
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Etherealicer on January 22, 2018, 02:37:35 PM
Due to rule violations, the following member have been banned.

Lynn LeFey - For creating a thread that stayed on topic
Alan K, pomsbz, Pabs - for posting in said thread (I expected better from you guys, especially you Pabs).
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Don Pablo on January 22, 2018, 02:44:53 PM
(http://www.crosstimecafe.com/images/smilies/Curse.gif) (http://www.crosstimecafe.com/images/smilies/Curse.gif) (http://www.crosstimecafe.com/images/smilies/Curse.gif) (http://www.crosstimecafe.com/images/smilies/Curse.gif) (http://www.crosstimecafe.com/images/smilies/Curse.gif) (http://www.crosstimecafe.com/images/smilies/Curse.gif) (http://www.crosstimecafe.com/images/smilies/Curse.gif) (http://www.crosstimecafe.com/images/smilies/Curse.gif) (http://www.crosstimecafe.com/images/smilies/Curse.gif) (http://www.crosstimecafe.com/images/smilies/Curse.gif) (http://www.crosstimecafe.com/images/smilies/Curse.gif) (http://www.crosstimecafe.com/images/smilies/Curse.gif) (http://www.crosstimecafe.com/images/smilies/Curse.gif) (http://www.crosstimecafe.com/images/smilies/Curse.gif) (http://www.crosstimecafe.com/images/smilies/Curse.gif) (http://www.crosstimecafe.com/images/smilies/Curse.gif)

 :crash:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: WoodsDuck on January 22, 2018, 03:44:04 PM
Don't know about you guys, but I love mint chocolate chip ice cream  :pok:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Lynn LeFey on January 22, 2018, 03:59:27 PM
Due to rule violations, the following member have been banned.

Lynn LeFey - For creating a thread that stayed on topic
Alan K, pomsbz, Pabs - for posting in said thread (I expected better from you guys, especially you Pabs).

No, but... wait... I...  :'(

 :D
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: styx on January 22, 2018, 04:23:57 PM
well since it hit the fan perhaps it would be appropriate to hear Lynn's thoughts of e-tools, trowels, spades and other digging utensils in these bobs
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: pomsbz on January 22, 2018, 04:39:04 PM
well since it hit the fan perhaps it would be appropriate to hear Lynn's thoughts of e-tools, trowels, spades and other digging utensils in these bobs

Did someone mention trowels in bobs? Here's mine though it's not a bob cause I don't know anyone called Bob :)

(http://www.timelessjewishart.com/EDC_zx/shovel.jpg)
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: pomsbz on January 22, 2018, 04:42:02 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLTR8qYWJbQ
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Lynn LeFey on January 22, 2018, 06:43:03 PM
well since it hit the fan perhaps it would be appropriate to hear Lynn's thoughts of e-tools, trowels, spades and other digging utensils in these bobs

Well... now that you ask...

I have owned several e-tools, but they were all apparently of the cheap-crap variety, and my opinion of them is extraordinarily low. On par with the Dollar Tree $1 SAK knockoff. Just short of a complete waste of material, in other words.

The problem is, admittedly, I have never owned a GOOD one, so... (shrug)... BUT...

Minus issues of weight, I think something like the Cold Steel 'Special Forces' Shovel seems pretty awesome. Moreso after I've seen what the Zack Fowler (Winner of season 3 of 'Alone') accomplishes with one. I think in a car kit, something like that would be great. Putting one in a 72 hour kit.... ehh.... no. And that sort of also sums up my feeligns on an e-tool. Car-kit=yes. Bag=no.

Trowel. Yes. BURY YOUR Sh**, people! There's an ultralight 'deuce of spades' trowel, and while I'm normally against titanium (overrated, overly expensive, not impressed), if it gets someone to carry a tool to properly dispose of their poo, then I'm 100% for it.

I've never owned or used a folding trowel, but I'm all for them, if they're reliable.

The only thing i can really think of as a need for digging anything bigger than a cat hole or clearing out an area for a campfire in a 72-hour timeframe is maybe digging a car out of snow. If that's the case, you are AT your car, and a shovel in a car kit seems reasonable. If you're reduced to just a bag, I don't see the reason for a bigger digging tool.

I also kind of wanted to touch on some of the earlier posts, particularly in regards to emergency bags in Israel. I didn't think it needed to be stated, but yeah, an emergency bag is always going to be very dependent on your location. I live in a place where water is abundant (annoyingly so), and wood is plentiful. I live in a place where MAYBE 2 weeks a year, it would really be considered 'winter'. All these things color my perceptions, and inform my decisions on items in an emergency kit. If I lived on the coast, a little fishing kit, or even a pretty sizeable one, might make a LOT of sense, if for nothing other than passing time.

Anyway, good stuff, all. Carry on.  :cheers:


Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Alan K. on January 23, 2018, 07:07:55 AM
I honestly don't care for the cold steel special forces shovel because it doesn't fold.  I have a combo E-tool that folds so you can use the shovel like a pick which makes for easier digging and it has a spike on the other side for when you hit rocks or really compacted soil.  I have used it to dig fire pits for over 20 years. It is a bit heavy on a hike, but then it gets left in camp while we explore with light weight day packs. If I had to rely on a pocket size trowel to dig any holes I'd be there all day. 
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: zoidberg on January 23, 2018, 09:50:09 AM
well since it hit the fan perhaps it would be appropriate to hear Lynn's thoughts of e-tools, trowels, spades and other digging utensils in these bobs

Did someone mention trowels in bobs? Here's mine though it's not a bob cause I don't know anyone called Bob :)

(http://www.timelessjewishart.com/EDC_zx/shovel.jpg)

I've got a couple of those ones, very useful.   :tu:   :like:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: styx on January 23, 2018, 10:24:41 AM
I honestly don't care for the cold steel special forces shovel because it doesn't fold.  I have a combo E-tool that folds so you can use the shovel like a pick which makes for easier digging and it has a spike on the other side for when you hit rocks or really compacted soil.  I have used it to dig fire pits for over 20 years. It is a bit heavy on a hike, but then it gets left in camp while we explore with light weight day packs. If I had to rely on a pocket size trowel to dig any holes I'd be there all day. 

key thing being it was made over 20 years ago. hate to sound like this but many things are not made to the same level of quality today

Outside of the CS shovel some I know are pretty good is the Glock e-tool and Gerber Nato e-tool (at least they used to be)
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Alan K. on January 23, 2018, 07:52:13 PM
I don't like the Gerber tool either as it has a D handle rather than a long handle.  I find the long handle easier to work with especially if the shovel is folded to use as a pick. The German surplus E-tools are about the best in the business.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Shuya on October 28, 2018, 09:20:31 AM
Just found this topic. Read almost everything, amazing views. Hope you dont mind me beeing a grave digger.
Not going to reply to all.

My humble view on all these survival kits is a bit different from most of you. Since living in central europe I really dont have a survival kit as a stand alone thing. However I pack some things while hiking, fitting the circumstances of my environment.

To the knife thing: I hike a lot, backpacking in remote areas. And to be honest: Ive never ever seen anyone carry a fixed blade when being more than 3 dayhikes away from the nearest city. Why? You dont need it. Dead weight. For fires I use my pocket knife, never been an issue. Id rather carry a small folding saw than a >4inch blade. Some long distance hikers even go with a classic only.
Ive beaten a SAK when I was a child playing in the woods. Those tools can do amazing things. And for most survival shelters you dont even have to cut down trees, or the saw on your SAK will do the job.
When I see guys with fixed blades I am near civilisation and those dudes often carry some sort of tactical backpack and stuff.  :think:

That brings me to the other points mentioned in the first topic.
What is often missed in all those videos is the following: Your first defense is your clothing. Not the emergency stuff in your backpack. Dress for the environment, carry weather protection.
I often see guys in black/camo/khaki clothes tell you to carry a signal mirror to be seen. Really? Those guys missed the first and most important lession in beeing found: be visible. When out in the mountain range I carry a bright red backpack, a bright orange rainjacket, my fleece is red or in some other bright color, too. You better look like a freaking parrot when injured and waiting for the resucue folks and not like a bush or rock.
Color doesnt cost anything, it doesnt weight anything, yet it can save your life.

Oh and those "medikits" in the small survival kits....containing like 5 bandaids. Dude, seriously? What emergency are you going to deal with with 5 bandaids? Everyone who has proper training and/or been in a real emergency will just shake his head.
Get a real kit. And get training. Stop this bullsmurf.

Most of the kits are build around the boys dream of beeing lost in the wood. How many disasters are like that? I would estimate that more emergencies happen with some ressources or equipment around you rather than beeing in the woods/desert/...
So a Multitool to repair, harvest, forage is better than that builky fixed blade. Oh and if you want to pry, add a crowbar.  :twak:

Proper clothes, a lightweight bivybag, first aid kid, a map+compass or GPS, Headlight, pocket knife and a whistle plus a phone will get you through a lot of trouble. Stay warm, stay dry and you will make that 3 days without carrying an extra backpack.
Thats what I carry when out in the mountain range or when hiking alone.
You dont want to build up a new civilisation or go camping with your kit.

Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Mechanickal on October 28, 2018, 09:48:25 AM
No problem in some grave digging.

Especialy not when it's such a sensible and well worded post :salute:

When I was younger I felt the need for an "all out survival bag".
These days however, I evolved into a similar mindset as yours.
I do find a larger folding knife can be a great addition though. Especialy when there can be dangerous wildlife around. (If guns aren't allowed like here in Europe)
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Don Pablo on October 28, 2018, 10:35:53 AM
If you’re going to bring a big knife because of the wild animals, it might be a good idea to make sure you know how to use it.  :think:
So, training!
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Syncop8r on October 28, 2018, 10:47:14 AM
I think I would reach for a big stick before a knife.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Don Pablo on October 28, 2018, 11:03:41 AM
I think I would reach for a big stick before a knife.
Me too, but then again, I don’t know how to use a knife.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Shuya on October 28, 2018, 11:39:58 AM
If you feel like threatened from animals...first thing should be avoiding them. Either by walking away or by letting them know you are there.
How many animals actually attack humans on purpose? And how many of these attacks are defendable? I mean, if a cougar or something like that is sneaking up from behind in the night...good luck reaching for anything in time.
Other than that, pepperspray would make a good addition, for keeping some folks away, too.
I carry one in my EDC. When beeing out in the town at night with my girlfriend and little daugher running away is not an option, stabbing them, neither. So I hope for the best and keep pepperspray at reach.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Syncop8r on October 28, 2018, 12:36:24 PM
I think I would reach for a big stick before a knife.
Me too, but then again, I don’t know how to use a knife.
A stick being waved around might help scare an animal away or be used to keep it at bay as well as for whacking it. I doubt animals are scared of knives.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Don Pablo on October 28, 2018, 01:39:17 PM
I think I would reach for a big stick before a knife.
Me too, but then again, I don’t know how to use a knife.
A stick being waved around might help scare an animal away or be used to keep it at bay as well as for whacking it. I doubt animals are scared of knives.
Good point.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: AimlessWanderer on October 28, 2018, 03:59:31 PM
Most of the kits are build around the boys dream of beeing lost in the wood. How many disasters are like that?

Probably my single biggest gripe about "survival" stuff.  :salute: everything seems to always revolve around being in the woods with an abundance of natural materials, and nothing man made. Wouldn't work on peat moorland where there's no trees and a fire would set the smurfing ground on fire. Wouldn't work if the thing you were trying to survive was fire or flood. Wouldn't work if you were already injured and exhausted. It only works if you're of good health, in a material abundant situation, no immediate hazards, nobody with you who's in hysterics or who needs constant attention. Complete nonsense. Going rough camping and calling it survival training, is like calling yourself a surgeon because you can clip your own toenails.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: pomsbz on October 28, 2018, 05:38:41 PM
Quote
Going rough camping and calling it survival training, is like calling yourself a surgeon because you can clip your own toenails.

 :rofl: :rofl:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Mechanickal on October 29, 2018, 05:48:07 AM
Regarding the animals:
Pepperspray is considered a first class weapon here. So illegal.

When you're walking in the forrest and end up standing in between a wild boar and it's child, you won't have time to search for a big stick.

Don't overturn this whole topic from extreme BOBs to "even a folding knife is never needed".
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Etherealicer on October 29, 2018, 11:28:07 AM
Most of the kits are build around the boys dream of beeing lost in the wood. How many disasters are like that? I would estimate that more emergencies happen with some ressources or equipment around you rather than beeing in the woods/desert/...
I agree a BOB/Survival Kit is like the EDC, very individual and strongly depending on where you are, what you plan on doing and what your abilities are.

I would like to add that building a shelter/camp is way overrated and could kill you, especially if water is scarce. If you read this story on knife news: Man Survives Four Days Lost in the Mountains with Buck 110 (https://knifenews.com/man-survives-four-days-lost-in-the-mountains-with-buck-110/), you will realize that his "survival skills" almost killed the man. Had he not lost his lighter he would probably have ended up so dehydrated that he could not save himself anymore.
Preparing does not just mean "bring as much gear as possible", but think about exit strategy / inform someone where you are going, and when you will be back etc.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: GrandpaPatch on November 02, 2018, 04:48:38 AM
Most of the kits are build around the boys dream of beeing lost in the wood. How many disasters are like that? I would estimate that more emergencies happen with some ressources or equipment around you rather than beeing in the woods/desert/...
I agree a BOB/Survival Kit is like the EDC, very individual and strongly depending on where you are, what you plan on doing and what your abilities are.

I would like to add that building a shelter/camp is way overrated and could kill you, especially if water is scarce. If you read this story on knife news: Man Survives Four Days Lost in the Mountains with Buck 110 (https://knifenews.com/man-survives-four-days-lost-in-the-mountains-with-buck-110/), you will realize that his "survival skills" almost killed the man. Had he not lost his lighter he would probably have ended up so dehydrated that he could not save himself anymore.
Preparing does not just mean "bring as much gear as possible", but think about exit strategy / inform someone where you are going, and when you will be back etc.

So this man (Hutter) was out hiking without water, flashlight or map/compass (or knowledge) of local area and did not know where he was going when he "stepped off the path for a moment, and then couldn’t find it again.". Then he proceeded to walk in an unknown direction for 2 hours? It wasn't that a Buck 110 saved his life or losing a lighter saved his life...IT WAS BLIND LUCK THAT HIS STUPIDITY DID NOT KILL HIM!
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Etherealicer on November 02, 2018, 08:10:22 AM
Most of the kits are build around the boys dream of beeing lost in the wood. How many disasters are like that? I would estimate that more emergencies happen with some ressources or equipment around you rather than beeing in the woods/desert/...
I agree a BOB/Survival Kit is like the EDC, very individual and strongly depending on where you are, what you plan on doing and what your abilities are.

I would like to add that building a shelter/camp is way overrated and could kill you, especially if water is scarce. If you read this story on knife news: Man Survives Four Days Lost in the Mountains with Buck 110 (https://knifenews.com/man-survives-four-days-lost-in-the-mountains-with-buck-110/), you will realize that his "survival skills" almost killed the man. Had he not lost his lighter he would probably have ended up so dehydrated that he could not save himself anymore.
Preparing does not just mean "bring as much gear as possible", but think about exit strategy / inform someone where you are going, and when you will be back etc.

So this man (Hutter) was out hiking without water, flashlight or map/compass (or knowledge) of local area and did not know where he was going when he "stepped off the path for a moment, and then couldn’t find it again.". Then he proceeded to walk in an unknown direction for 2 hours? It wasn't that a Buck 110 saved his life or losing a lighter saved his life...IT WAS BLIND LUCK THAT HIS STUPIDITY DID NOT KILL HIM!
Saddest part is that he is thinking about teaching survival to others :facepalm:

Of course it was sheer luck. But loosing the lighter made him walk away from the camp and allowed luck to save him. I of course primarily mention the lighter as item that "saved" him, because his plan for the future is to carry 2 lighters.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Mechanickal on November 02, 2018, 08:51:19 AM
Everyone who survives something like that needs luck.

He did know what to eat, how to build camp. I'm not going to say he's an expert. But luck is always needed.

If you're a true survival expert out there on your own, but you break a leg... it might kill you.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Syncop8r on November 02, 2018, 10:27:26 AM
When you're walking in the forrest and end up standing in between a wild boar and it's child, you won't have time to search for a big stick.
Taking on such an animal in such a situation would be my absolute last resort. One would probably be bitten and/or gored before they can stick a knife in. Using trees for cover, putting my pack or anything else between myself and the animal, making lots of noise, throwing rocks or using a stick (they are actually quite common in forests)...
I would still want a knife to reach for if it came to that.
Don't overturn this whole topic from extreme BOBs to "even a folding knife is never needed".
I didn't.  :pok:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Etherealicer on November 02, 2018, 01:12:00 PM
Everyone who survives something like that needs luck.

He did know what to eat, how to build camp. I'm not going to say he's an expert. But luck is always needed.

If you're a true survival expert out there on your own, but you break a leg... it might kill you.
The problem in this story is, that his knowledge almost got him killed and that he does not realize that. And while there is no problem with being lucky, the whole point of survival skills is to not rely on luck.
To me, survival skills are not just knowing how to build a camp, it is also to understand what it means if you build a camp and why you are building a camp (just building a camp because some dude on a survival channel suggested it seems ridiculous).
Survival also means to re-evaluate your decisions (which he did).

In short survival skills are not just to know how to make a fire, but also when to make a fire.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Aloha on November 02, 2018, 03:19:23 PM
Heading out unprepared was a mistake.  Not telling anyone where he was going and when to expect him back was a mistake.  "Stepping off trail" was a mistake since all he prepared for was a 15 min hike. 

He made the fire and found prickly pears.

This thread is about what Lynn hated about BOBs.  I'm pretty certain if he had a few more pieces of gear ( even gear she hates ) he might have "camped" a little longer.  Making the decision to venture out and find rescue was a good decision.

His scenario is exactly what kills many who venture out thinking they'll "only" be out for an hour or less.  His story, I mean this with NO DISRESPECT at all, is one of a cautionary tale. 

Even his tongue in cheek “I sometimes take an extra lighter, now,” he laughingly admits. is lame.  He said he burned all fuel he could find then oddly the writer says he lost his lighter while trying to light a larger signal fire  :dunno:

While the thread is about BOBs and some gear Lynn hates I again say, To each their own.   
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: GrandpaPatch on November 03, 2018, 07:16:00 AM
Very interesting OP and a mix of replies that follow that range from good information to just out right hilarious. 1) Tactical Stuff: I live in the desert and own a digi-desert camo backpack. Is it cool? No. Was it the best pack available and at the cheapest price that I could find in my area so that I could go camping for a week with my son? Yes. Nothing Tactical or Tacticool about it. It is just a backpack. Does it have MOLLE webbing on it? Yes. I found it convenient for attaching a few items to the backpack. I also wear Khaki (https://www.propper.com/propper-uniform-tactical-pant.html) pants. They have pockets that I can actually use. I can even get my hands into the front pocket while my Sig Sauer P238 (https://www.sigsauer.com/store/p238-desert-micro-compact.html) is in my pocket and bothering no one. AND....the pants are cheaper than Wrangler, Levi, whatever other denim pants you prefer. 2) Fixed Blade Knife: Do I own a couple of these? Yes. The oldest fixed blade knife I have is my Ka-Bar, which I got in 1984 in the US Marines. Do I have an attachment to that particular knife? Yes. It has been with me to more place and through more trying situations than anything my wife can put me through in the last 30+ years. Do I carry my Ka-Bar on my belt when I am going to the store? No. Do I carry it when I am out wandering around in the desert? Yes. Do I fight off lions, tigers and bear with it? No. 3) Firearms: I'm in the desert and rattle snakes are a problem. Leave them alone and 99.9% of the time they will leave you alone. For the .1% of the time (and it has not happen to me yet) that the snakes (no legged or two legged variety) don't want to leave me alone, I carry The Judge (https://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=198&category=Revolver&toggle=tr&breadcrumbseries=JDG) with .410 000 Buck shells. Do I carry a firearm everyday? Yes. Have I had to use a firearm to defend against a civilian threat while being a civilian myself? No, and I would like to keep it that way.

So I think that is my response to some of the questions I have seen directly or implied over the last 6 pages of replies to the OP. The only thing I can add are these few comments 1) Always plan for the worst while hoping for the best. 2) I do not have a BOB, INCH, GHB or other bag or backpack set aside for a '72hr' scenario. I live in town and the safest place for me and my family is to stay in the house. Let the rest of the lunatics loot the public stores stealing TV's claiming they were stealing needed supplies, drive to their BOL (Bug Out Location) or run for the hills (that a long way from where I'm at) and fight with the others who also think that running off to the woods is their best bet. I do have an EDC pouch (posted elsewhere) that is always being evaluated and changed as needed. 3) In the event that I had to employ a '72hr' bag (and could not be at home) it would be filled with PayDay candy bars, bottled water and cigarettes. Then I would just have to find some shade and wait it out.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Valkie on November 03, 2018, 10:31:33 AM
I think I would reach for a big stick before a knife.
Me too, but then again, I don’t know how to use a knife.
A stick being waved around might help scare an animal away or be used to keep it at bay as well as for whacking it. I doubt animals are scared of knives.

We have lots of nice animals who have absolutely zero fear of knives.

Lovely snakes, some of the most poisonous in the world in fact, no fear of man and some will even chase you......run away fast.

We have spiders, lots and lots of spiders, again, some of the deadliest in the world.
The Sydney funnel web can bite through a leather boot. It's not afraid of people either.

We have big birds from little pluvers and magpie, up to emus and cassowary that really are a piece of work. They have killed people.

We have lovely kangaroos, so nice to look at aren't they?
Did you know, they fight by grabbing you with their arms and holding on, then they balance on their tails and use their seriously powerful rear legs to eviscerate you.
Up in the north, some grow over 6 to 8 feet tall, not something you want to aggravate.

We have bush pigs with nasty tusks and even salt water crocks (mud guppies) that even take on sharks.

In the water we have fish that look like stones, and kill you with poison when you step on them
Jellyfish, that you can't see that kill you in 60 seconds
Sharks, some bigger than the toy used in Jaws.
Even shell fish with harpoons that are poisonous.

And that's not even considering all the nasties that bite, sting, and do all manner of things that don't kill you.

What I'm trying to say is that a knife against these little creatures is about as useful as post hole digger in a boat.

With Australian animals, the best course of action is to avoid or run.

Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Aloha on November 03, 2018, 04:14:56 PM
Your application with the Aus board of tourism has been denied, thank you. 
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Mechanickal on November 03, 2018, 04:22:28 PM
:facepalm:

Could my post be taken out of context even further? :shrug:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Don Pablo on November 03, 2018, 04:37:53 PM
:facepalm:

Could my post be taken out of context even further? :shrug:
We’re all on a derailed tangent, having fun.
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: superpaco on November 04, 2018, 02:39:57 PM
Your application with the Aus board of tourism has been denied, thank you.

 :rofl:I spit out my coffee (only narrowly missing my phone) when I read this!  :rofl:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: Valkie on November 11, 2018, 11:26:45 PM
Just stating facts.

We have a beautiful country, but some really nasty and angry animals.

We have this beautiful spider called a whistling tarantula.

My wife had one as a pet for a while, until the damn heater in the terrarium carked it and the spider died in winter.

The spider was what is known a s a new world spider.
Old world spiders can be handled and are generally reasonably docile.
New world spiders are generally not handled because they are seriously aggressive, very fast and even the the ones considered non poisonous ones have enough poison to make you quite ill.

Anyhoo, the whistling tarantula is a new world spider and feeding it was quite the Adrenalin rush .
Just opening the cage brought it to attention.
Drop the cockroach  (woodbug) into the cage and it shot out of its hole, straight at the roach, the speed and aggression gave you a start every single time.
It wont kill you if it bites, you just throw up and feel intense pain for 24 to 48 hours.

Its about 10 cm across, (about 4 inches) but has been known to grow up to 15 cm (6 inches)

The Sydney funnel web is much nastier.
It goes hunting for a female, and nothing gets in its way
Anything that does gets walked over or bitten.
Dogs and cats are imune, humans are not and its very very toxic.

But my little favorite is the Blue Ringed Octopus.
Tiny thing, about 25 to 40 cm in size, lives around rocky shoreline where people fish and kids play.
Its quite reclusive, and requires a bit to get it out of its hole.
And when you do it gets all these pretty iridescent blue circles all over its body
THIS MEANS ITS REALLY REALY ANGRY.

They people say, Oh How pretty and put it on their arms.
It bites them
The toxin stops the heart, the lungs and you die, usually in about 2-3 minutes, unless CPR is administered until you get to hospital.

Yet very few Aussies die from all the toxic, aggressive and nasty animals we have.
Because in general, we leave the nasty things alone.
We don't play with them
We don't annoy them and we don't hunt them.

 :pok: :pok: :pok: :pok: :pok:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: gdoolittle on November 12, 2018, 05:32:00 AM
Just stating facts.

We have a beautiful country, but some really nasty and angry animals.

We have this beautiful spider called a whistling tarantula.

My wife had one as a pet for a while, until the damn heater in the terrarium carked it and the spider died in winter.

The spider was what is known a s a new world spider.
Old world spiders can be handled and are generally reasonably docile.
New world spiders are generally not handled because they are seriously aggressive, very fast and even the the ones considered non poisonous ones have enough poison to make you quite ill.

Anyhoo, the whistling tarantula is a new world spider and feeding it was quite the Adrenalin rush .
Just opening the cage brought it to attention.
Drop the cockroach  (woodbug) into the cage and it shot out of its hole, straight at the roach, the speed and aggression gave you a start every single time.
It wont kill you if it bites, you just throw up and feel intense pain for 24 to 48 hours.

Its about 10 cm across, (about 4 inches) but has been known to grow up to 15 cm (6 inches)

The Sydney funnel web is much nastier.
It goes hunting for a female, and nothing gets in its way
Anything that does gets walked over or bitten.
Dogs and cats are imune, humans are not and its very very toxic.

But my little favorite is the Blue Ringed Octopus.
Tiny thing, about 25 to 40 cm in size, lives around rocky shoreline where people fish and kids play.
Its quite reclusive, and requires a bit to get it out of its hole.
And when you do it gets all these pretty iridescent blue circles all over its body
THIS MEANS ITS REALLY REALY ANGRY.

They people say, Oh How pretty and put it on their arms.
It bites them
The toxin stops the heart, the lungs and you die, usually in about 2-3 minutes, unless CPR is administered until you get to hospital.

Yet very few Aussies die from all the toxic, aggressive and nasty animals we have.
Because in general, we leave the nasty things alone.
We don't play with them
We don't annoy them and we don't hunt them.

 :pok: :pok: :pok: :pok: :pok:
I don’t want one of those spiders in my bug-out-bag. :whistle:
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: lister on November 12, 2018, 10:20:42 AM
I don’t want one of those spiders in my bug-out-bag. :whistle:

Well, they just might keep bugs out of your bag...  :D
Title: Re: Things I hate in 'Bug Out Bags', or... How to Start an Argument
Post by: hiraethus on November 12, 2018, 12:10:54 PM
I'd rather have a bug, out! bag.