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Tool Talk => Swiss Army Knights Forum => Topic started by: FolderBeholder on May 07, 2018, 11:55:21 PM

Title: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 07, 2018, 11:55:21 PM
Looking for some clarification on my new-to-me 58mm SAK.

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/828/41916495572_95166f88e2_z.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/827/41916495512_616289d05d_z.jpg)
The box has it as a Manager 54081.  It could be the wrong box.
When I did a Google search, I came up with this page and in the description it says red handle even though the photo doesn't match the scale description, the tool set does match.
http://www.hardhatusa.com/itemdetail.asp?itemid=V-54081

The pamphlet in the box has a copyright date of 1996.
In the SAKWiki on the Vagabond page it states, "In 1997 Victorinox introduced wire-stripper on the combo-tool, so the introduction of the Vagabond would have been 1997 or slightly later."

By all accounts it seems that it is a Vagabond, but in a wrong box?  Is that what you would think as well?  :think:

Edit: I notice on the Wiki, that the Mate has an identifier of 54071. 
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 08, 2018, 12:50:47 AM
Box photos:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/976/28090772148_a939f2d649_z.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/906/28090772328_53f2e73431_z.jpg)
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: jalind on May 08, 2018, 02:28:18 AM
Looks like a Vagabond to me in the wrong box. A Manager would be a Rambler with a pen. Looks like Tweezers on the front scales. Wouldn't be the first time this has happened.

John
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: jaya_man on May 08, 2018, 02:49:12 AM
Yes, its a Vagabond...
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 08, 2018, 03:09:34 AM
Thank you jalind and java_man.
I do agree it has the tool set of the Vagabond.
I now wonder...and this may be a long shot.... :think: did Victorinox end the Mate around 1996 (it has an identifier of 54071) and start a Manager with 54081, but then quickly renamed it to a Vagabond?
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: jalind on May 08, 2018, 03:43:06 AM
Thank you jalind and java_man.
I do agree it has the tool set of the Vagabond.
I now wonder...and this may be a long shot.... :think: did Victorinox end the Mate around 1996 (it has an identifier of 54071) and start a Manager with 54081, but then quickly renamed it to a Vagabond?

From my perspective after years of seeing ePrey auction errors with NOS picked up from old stock being dumped to secondary market, and used  LNIB from things like estate sales, the wrong SAK in the wrong box seems a much more credible scenario.

John
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 08, 2018, 03:47:56 AM
Thank you jalind and java_man.
I do agree it has the tool set of the Vagabond.
I now wonder...and this may be a long shot.... :think: did Victorinox end the Mate around 1996 (it has an identifier of 54071) and start a Manager with 54081, but then quickly renamed it to a Vagabond?

From my perspective after years of seeing ePrey auction errors with NOS picked up from old stock being dumped to secondary market, and used  LNIB from things like estate sales, the wrong SAK in the wrong box seems a much more credible scenario.

John
I'm definitely not ruling that out.  I recently bought what I thought was a Traveller Lite (that's what the box said), but there was a Voyager Lite in the box..it had to be sent back.
I just feel like this one is the original box (sure I'd like it to be because I love original boxes), but it's those identifier numbers that have me perplexed and thinking my theory may have some validity.
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: Boonies on May 08, 2018, 05:44:35 AM
FB.....to add a bit of a twist to your story......I don’t believe there were two different knives, I believe that Vic simply renamed the “Mate” to “Vagabond” and continued on.  Maybe the “Mate” wasn’t selling well enough (except in Australia, lol) and they thought “Vagabond” would do better, who knows.

Here is a NIB “Vagabond”, with the “Mate” identifier on both parts of the box and the knife has the Mate profile but is named as a Vagabond.  The copyright on the warranty info on the inside of the box slip top is 1998.  I have seen one other NIB set identical to this one, so not a fluke.

How’s that for adding to the confusion.... :cheers:
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 08, 2018, 05:56:49 AM
How’s that for adding to the confusion.... :cheers:
That is another riddle to be solved.  :ahhh
Thank you for adding the photo.
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 08, 2018, 06:00:18 AM
Maybe the “Mate” wasn’t selling well enough (except in Australia, lol) and they thought “Vagabond” would do better, who knows.
Went right over my head the first time I read that.  :rofl:
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: VICMAN on May 08, 2018, 11:38:27 AM
Looking for some clarification on my new-to-me 58mm SAK.


Nice addition to your collection FB! :like: :tu: :tu:
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 08, 2018, 04:10:27 PM
Looking for some clarification on my new-to-me 58mm SAK.


Nice addition to your collection FB! :like: :tu: :tu:
:cheers: Vicman!
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 08, 2018, 04:10:44 PM
Does anyone know the first year of the Manager?
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: jalind on May 08, 2018, 04:53:56 PM
Does anyone know the first year of the Manager?
The Rambler on which it is based didn't exist in the early 1990's. The multi-tool cap lifter added to the Classic to create the Rambler appeared about 1994-1995 in several 58mm models, one of which was the new MiniChamp II (1994). My best estimate would be some time about 1997-1998 for the Manager, and the Midnite Manager with red LED plus pen.

See the 1993 and earliest 2000 catalogs in the SAKWiki, and then browse through the 58mm in the wiki that have the multi-tool cap lifter. The original version of it didn't have the wire stripper notch, and the earliest ones had a flat tip, not a Phillips on the end. That notch was added later in 1997 (found in the wiki for the tool itself). From your photo of the knife, that one is 1997 or newer with the notch in the cap lifter. This reinforces my conclusion of very high probability now the knife was put into the wrong box at some point.

Edit:
I'm a believer in Occam's Razor.

John
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 08, 2018, 05:13:52 PM
Does anyone know the first year of the Manager?
The Rambler on which it is based didn't exist in the early 1990's. The multi-tool cap lifter added to the Classic to create the Rambler appeared about 1994-1995 in several 58mm models, one of which was the new MiniChamp II (1994). My best estimate would be some time about 1997-1998 for the Manager, and the Midnite Manager with red LED plus pen.

See the 1993 and earliest 2000 catalogs in the SAKWiki, and then browse through the 58mm in the wiki that have the multi-tool cap lifter. The original version of it didn't have the wire stripper notch, and the earliest ones had a flat tip, not a Phillips on the end. That notch was added later in 1997 (found in the wiki for the tool itself). From your photo of the knife, that one is 1997 or newer with the notch in the cap lifter. This reinforces my conclusion of high probability the knife was put into the wrong box at some point.

John
Thank you John for the added information.  I have been looking at those catalogs.  I wonder why there are none in the mid-1990s?  :think:  Seems I'm always wanting to find information around 1993-1996.
The good news is that I bought the knife as I wanted a Vagabond, sad news is it is probably not the original box.
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: LoopCutter on May 08, 2018, 09:26:25 PM
To add to the confusion, I bought a brand new manager in 1998 or 99. Receipt and box at home I believe.
Carried it for over 15 years it went missing. Searched for replacement and Wiki told me my hunt as well as members of another forum that a Manager was not what I sought but a Vagabond.  So changed search and obtained two, one with the Phillips, the other with a Straight screw blade. 

I think it strange that now two NIB Managers from the same period are actually Vagabonds with the Phillips.

I do not get home till Friday and will check numbers. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 08, 2018, 10:10:35 PM

I think it strange that now two NIB Managers from the same period are actually Vagabonds with the Phillips.

I do not get home till Friday and will check numbers. 

Oh, this is getting good, Good, GOOD!
Safe travels, and please post as soon as you get home, well greet the family first, then get that box/receipt out.  :D

Jalind, are you reading this, Mr. Occam's Razor, are you here?...  :pok:  :D  :cheers:
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: Gath on May 09, 2018, 03:52:41 PM
At least in the European market + apparently Japan Vagabond definitely was named manager for a while, as I have one, with the instruction slip saying Manager with Vagabond tools.

(https://i.imgur.com/fi78xr3.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/RGQ8SX7.jpg)


Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 09, 2018, 03:58:54 PM
At least in the European market + apparently Japan Vagabond definitely was named manager for a while, as I have one, with the instruction slip saying Manager with Vagabond tools.

(https://i.imgur.com/fi78xr3.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/RGQ8SX7.jpg)
Thank you for your added information and photos!  I think I do have the original box!  :woohoo: :2tu: :tu: :like: :cheers:
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: glenfiddich1983 on May 09, 2018, 04:07:48 PM
At least in the European market + apparently Japan Vagabond definitely was named manager for a while, as I have one, with the instruction slip saying Manager with Vagabond tools.

(https://i.imgur.com/fi78xr3.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/RGQ8SX7.jpg)
Thank you for your added information and photos!  I think I do have the original box!  :woohoo: :2tu: :tu: :like: :cheers:

Very nice! Someone should add this new info to SAKWiki :2tu:
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 09, 2018, 04:39:29 PM
At least in the European market + apparently Japan Vagabond definitely was named manager for a while, as I have one, with the instruction slip saying Manager with Vagabond tools.

(https://i.imgur.com/fi78xr3.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/RGQ8SX7.jpg)
Thank you for your added information and photos!  I think I do have the original box!  :woohoo: :2tu: :tu: :like: :cheers:

Very nice! Someone should add this new info to SAKWiki :2tu:
Agreed, I was just waiting for LoopCutter's information (on Friday) to add to Boonies and Gath's information before asking someone if it can be added.
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: Boonies on May 09, 2018, 06:48:30 PM
Another little quirk to this story.....evidently the cap lifter with flat tipped screwdriver was also available with the wire stripper notch at one time.  This from the warranty sheet tucked into the box....... :cheers:
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 09, 2018, 11:31:13 PM
Another little quirk to this story.....evidently the cap lifter with flat tipped screwdriver was also available with the wire stripper notch at one time.  This from the warranty sheet tucked into the box....... :cheers:
Wowza!  I hadn't seen that either!  :like:
Title: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: jaya_man on May 11, 2018, 10:51:28 AM
I have a Rover, Rogue and this custom Ti Minichamp... All have the the wire stripper on the flat sd combo.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180511/639be8e7aa66045a71fe8b7a412537d0.jpg)

I lost out on a bid to the only 58mm model I saw without the wire stripper a while back :facepalm:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 11, 2018, 03:48:33 PM
Nice Titanium MiniChamp!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 11, 2018, 10:57:49 PM
These scans may be helpful for the Wiki, thank you member Gath.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/903/42001176672_6a7605d43e.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/981/41325255864_d9af85caac.jpg)
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: LoopCutter on May 12, 2018, 03:39:33 PM
Sorry to report that the
‘98 Manager box and receipt were not located.  I may have discarded when my first unit was lost and I learned that it supposedly was a Vagabond not a manager. 
Yet here is a picture of the two units my son located on e-bay that he gifted me on Christmas 3 yrs ago. 
The right one is my EDC
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180512/d4c74f06919ac3d170e94f89c222353f.jpg)PS: I remember posting here or Bladeforums a pic of box and receipt when looking for a replacement, will try searching when I can get to a computer in next few days. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 12, 2018, 06:13:09 PM

Yet here is a picture of the two units my son located on e-bay that he gifted me on Christmas 3 yrs ago. 
The right one is my EDC
Very cool of your son to locate those for you!  :tu:

PS: I remember posting here or Bladeforums a pic of box and receipt when looking for a replacement, will try searching when I can get to a computer in next few days. 
I did find an old post of yours that mentions you looking at the receipt and box and that the sticker said Manager.  It was 1999 and $30.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: LoopCutter on May 14, 2018, 12:49:00 AM
Found it!!!!
Purchased 2/20/99 for $30 + tax brand new from a reputable knife seller and Victorinox dealer, because they also did warranty shipping to repair center. 

Here is pictures of the box -
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180513/4f8666459a1c885f6c7a9e02eeac3814.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180513/f03d19a1a96d3164b2a6a684eb225a6b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180513/f878a27f116884686acd6cb8bf79ce71.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180513/b405561401b803936a3dd59f0d78fb80.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 14, 2018, 01:06:31 AM
Found it!!!!
Purchased 2/20/99 for $30 + tax brand new from a reputable knife seller and Victorinox dealer, because they also did warranty shipping to repair center. 

Here is pictures of the box -
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180513/4f8666459a1c885f6c7a9e02eeac3814.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180513/f03d19a1a96d3164b2a6a684eb225a6b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180513/f878a27f116884686acd6cb8bf79ce71.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180513/b405561401b803936a3dd59f0d78fb80.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
:woohoo:  :cheers:  :tu:  :woohoo:

Just like my item name and number:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/906/28090772328_53f2e73431.jpg)
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 14, 2018, 01:20:03 AM
Does this seem like accurate information to anyone reading this?
If so, I will ask for it to be added to the SakWiki.

54071 Vagabond, has screwdriver, not Phillips
54081 Manager, has Phillips
0.6373 Manager European market, has Phillips
56071 Vagabond US Model   <-----This is already in the SakWiki
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: TazzieRob on May 14, 2018, 05:59:27 AM
I have a Rover, Rogue and this custom Ti Minichamp... All have the the wire stripper on the flat sd combo.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180511/639be8e7aa66045a71fe8b7a412537d0.jpg)

I lost out on a bid to the only 58mm model I saw without the wire stripper a while back :facepalm:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The Rogue I have on my keys has the flat SD combo tool without wire stripper notch. I think I have some Rovers from a batch of 10 58mm auction knives that I wanted to make into Rogues that may have the notch. Can't remember. Rogue is my favourite 58mm Vic in preference over the Rambler
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: jaya_man on May 14, 2018, 04:33:08 PM
Flat SD vs Phillips (Combo Tool)

Rover - Rally
Rogue - Rambler
Mate - Vagabond
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: Huntsman on May 16, 2018, 04:33:47 AM
I saw this thread when it first come out and thought to myself .... "- Yeah - Vagabond",  and promptly ignored it - until JM pointed me back here yesterday

This is an amazing discovery and research guys and gals - Well done and thank you so much to one and all
- Although it has done my head in somewhat  - Especially given the already rather confusing status of the Mate/Vagabond :think:

I have attempted to represent what you have found in the Wiki: Manager, Mate and Vagabond (http://sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Vagabond) pages ....
I did use the tool list photo of the Vagabond Manager - Hope that is OK - Credited in the Wiki image upload
Please have a look and return comments/suggestions/issues here...

I am especially pleased for FB getting her original box - This must now be one of the best in the collection - as it has the right wrong name on it  !! :o    :D

Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: LeaF on May 16, 2018, 10:32:44 AM
I have to add some entropy to this investigation..

Vagabond         (combo-tool with Phillips SD and wire-stripper, nail-file with SD)
https://leaf-vics.com/2014/11/032-vagabond.html

Vagabond II         (combo-tool with Flat SD and wire-stripper, nail-file with cleaner tip)
https://leaf-vics.com/2014/11/182-vagabond.html

Manager            (combo-tool with Phillips SD and wire-stripper, nail-file with SD)
https://leaf-vics.com/2014/11/097.html

Manager   II         (combo-tool with Flat SD and without wire-stripper, nail-file with cleaner tip)
https://leaf-vics.com/2017/11/615-manager-ii.html

Midnite Manager    (combo-tool with Phillips SD and wire-stripper, nail-file with SD)
https://leaf-vics.com/2014/11/110-midnite-manager.html

Midnite Manager II   (combo-tool with flat SD and wire-stripper, nail-file with SD)
https://leaf-vics.com/2014/11/096-midnite-manager.html
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: LeaF on May 16, 2018, 10:33:50 AM
and Managers
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: hiraethus on May 16, 2018, 11:55:44 AM
Gotta love Victorinox's naming conventions. :like:
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: Huntsman on May 16, 2018, 12:16:13 PM
Conventions?   ???   :think:    :pok:

Although they are certainly into recycling  - Very green   ;)
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 17, 2018, 03:50:59 AM
I saw this thread when it first come out and thought to myself .... "- Yeah - Vagabond",  and promptly ignored it - until JM pointed me back here yesterday

This is an amazing discovery and research guys and gals - Well done and thank you so much to one and all
- Although it has done my head in somewhat  - Especially given the already rather confusing status of the Mate/Vagabond :think:

I have attempted to represent what you have found in the Wiki: Manager, Mate and Vagabond (http://sakwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Vagabond) pages ....
I did use the tool list photo of the Vagabond Manager - Hope that is OK - Credited in the Wiki image upload
Please have a look and return comments/suggestions/issues here...

I am especially pleased for FB getting her original box - This must now be one of the best in the collection - as it has the right wrong name on it  !! :o    :D
Thank you Huntsman for adding the information to the Wiki!  Yes indeed, I am pleased with getting the original box.  :tu:  :cheers: 
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: FolderBeholder on May 22, 2018, 06:20:57 PM
Update:
I'm now the proud owner of the Vagabond in box that has it as a "Manager", plus the 54071 (formerly a Mate), in a box touting it as a Vagabond!
Special and sincerest of thanks go to member Boonies for gifting me his Vagabond in box.  :cheers:  :tu: Thank you Boonies!
Here they are:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/951/41560381004_037ec3696a.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/881/27411044107_a86b999f69.jpg)
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: pfrsantos on May 22, 2018, 06:29:08 PM
Update:
I'm now the proud owner of the Vagabond in box that has it as a "Manager", plus the 54071 (formerly a Mate), in a box touting it as a Vagabond!
Special and sincerest of thanks go to member Boonies for gifting me his Vagabond in box.  :cheers:  :tu: Thank you Boonies!
Here they are:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/951/41560381004_037ec3696a.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/881/27411044107_a86b999f69.jpg)

Very nice, FolderBeholder! Great new members for your collection!

 :cheers: :tu:

Also, well done, Boonies!

 :salute: :hatsoff:
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: pfrsantos on May 22, 2018, 06:31:00 PM
Another little quirk to this story.....evidently the cap lifter with flat tipped screwdriver was also available with the wire stripper notch at one time.  This from the warranty sheet tucked into the box....... :cheers:

Did anyone ever saw a straight pin like that straight pin?!

 :o :o
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: VICMAN on May 22, 2018, 10:27:00 PM
Update:
I'm now the proud owner of the Vagabond in box that has it as a "Manager", plus the 54071 (formerly a Mate), in a box touting it as a Vagabond!
Special and sincerest of thanks go to member Boonies for gifting me his Vagabond in box.  :cheers:  :tu: Thank you Boonies!
Here they are:


Nice SAKS FB! :like: :tu: :tu:
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: shadowrider on May 23, 2018, 01:21:12 AM
Great thread!

What I think most likely occurred is that the Mate/Vagabond model, rather than being two separate models, was always the same one.
The switch from flat screwdriver tip to a Phillips one was simply a design update.
As for the name, the model was at first labelled as Mate, then they changed the name (and identifier number accordingly) to Vagabond, while the first variation with flat screwdriver tip was still manufactured.
Additionally, at one point while the third variation (with Phillips) was produced, the model name changed again to Manager.
Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: Huntsman on May 23, 2018, 02:42:29 AM
Another little quirk to this story.....evidently the cap lifter with flat tipped screwdriver was also available with the wire stripper notch at one time.  This from the warranty sheet tucked into the box....... :cheers:
Did anyone ever see a straight pin like that straight pin?!
 :o :o

Just spotted another funny on that tool leaflet......

The  "REAMER W/SEWING EYE"    ......  does not have a sewing eye !!

Title: Re: Is this 58mm a Manager or Vagabond?
Post by: pfrsantos on May 23, 2018, 02:34:31 PM
Another little quirk to this story.....evidently the cap lifter with flat tipped screwdriver was also available with the wire stripper notch at one time.  This from the warranty sheet tucked into the box....... :cheers:
Did anyone ever see a straight pin like that straight pin?!
 :o :o

Just spotted another funny on that tool leaflet......

The  "REAMER W/SEWING EYE"    ......  does not have a sewing eye !!

Also, it looks like Deadpool!

 :ahhh :ahhh :ahhh :ahhh