Problem with a Trade with Leatherman123

[MedusaOblongata]

Leatherman123 (Nikko Ferrara) and I agreed to do a trade, arranged via email (not WTT post). We shipped as planned, he received the items I sent him and was pleased with the deal. When I received his package, the envelope had been torn and a LM Surge was missing. It was a Priority Flat Rate envelope, the tear is large enough for the Surge to have fallen through, and the tear does not look intentional at all. The tear was taped up poorly. I can't see any way that a person could deliberately tear an envelope in that manner. It was shipped USPS Priority w/Delivery Confirmation, no insurance. I contacted him immediately when I received it, and he assured me that the Surge had been in the envelope when he shipped it. I believe he is telling the truth.

So it looks like the envelope was torn accidentally by USPS and that's how the Surge fell out. I have opened up an investigation with USPS, got a case#. That didn't go anywhere so I opened up a Mail Recovery Search with them, so if they find it they can send it to me, but it's likely that they won't find it.

Having never had a problem like this before, I started a thread on BFC looking for suggestions on what to do from there: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6884527 Everyone seems to agree that the sender is responsible to ensure that the items promised do, in fact, arrive at their intended destination. I made Leatherman123 aware of the thread, and asked him how we can get this deal settled. I feel like I've done everything I can to try to get this resolved, and he seems to have stopped responding to my emails entirely. While I was hoping to get this settled privately, it's looking now like that is just not going to happen.

[Zack]

I have done about 10 trades with Nikko and they have been for the most part very good.  He got what he wanted and I got what I wanted.  If it was a multiple item trade then I would say whatever was traded for the Surge should be sent back, or something of equal value be traded in its place as long as both parties agreed.  I'm sure some others will chime in shortly and he will as well.  Good luck whatever the outcome.

[Nikos]

I followed that BF thread. I'm sorry for your loss (unfortunately, we've all been there) but to me it seems that Nikko owes you zip. You both cheaped out and went with uninsured shipping. That was your decision as Nikko may have proposed that shipping method but you both agreed on it. The fact that Nikko was lucky and received what you sent him while the items he sent you were lost in transit doesn't make him responsible for the loss. When I have the choice I usually go with first-class post, but I do bear in mind that there is a non-negligible risk. If what is shipped is of some (sentimental/collecting/monetary) value, I go with full-fledge insured+registered post.

[Zack]

I think the poster is at least owed the tool back that was traded for the Surge.

[eodtech]

Proper packaging is the key to resolving situations like this from happening. A box is preferred  over all other shipping containers. MT's are subject to penetrating the outer wrapper of an envelope and should be wrapped in a couple layers of bubble wrap to prevent this from happening.  It's always a good idea to attach a gummed label with the senders name and address to the inside wrapping so if it does fall out there is a way to identify the person who sent it.  Most itmes I have received from MTO members have been properly packaged, the couple I have received that have not been properly packed for shipping are individuals I no longer will deal with. UPS is far superior in their handling of packages however their costs reflect this effort.

I suggest if you buy /trade something of value either send it via registered or insured mail - no need to do both, one or the other will do.

[eodtech]

I think the poster is at least owed the tool back that was traded for the Surge.

That seems fair to me, good suggestion.

[Sean]

Sorry for the loss I hope it all works itself out to your satisfaction.  
Gee didn't LM123 just start a thread recently with the same problem that happened to him with a shipment coming in damaged and they had to go looking for his tools?  This trading can be a bit of a risky business.

eodtech,

thanks for the advice will remember this if I ever do another trade! 

[Flash]

I followed that BF thread. I'm sorry for your loss (unfortunately, we've all been there) but to me it seems that Nikko owes you zip. You both cheaped out and went with uninsured shipping. That was your decision as Nikko may have proposed that shipping method but you both agreed on it. The fact that Nikko was lucky and received what you sent him while the items he sent you were lost in transit doesn't make him responsible for the loss. When I have the choice I usually go with first-class post, but I do bear in mind that there is a non-negligible risk. If what is shipped is of some (sentimental/collecting/monetary) value, I go with full-fledge insured+registered post.

Can't help but agree dude.  Post without insurance and you risk loosing out.  Its not that much extra and it sorts a LOT of hassle.  Perhaps a lesson for some of us in this situation.

Sorry for your loss, but Nikko (IMHO) owes nothing.

Just my 2p's worth

[Gadget Guy]

Leatherman123 (Nikko Ferrara) and I agreed to do a trade, arranged via email (not WTT post). We shipped as planned, he received the items I sent him and was pleased with the deal. When I received his package, the envelope had been torn and a LM Surge was missing. It was a Priority Flat Rate envelope, the tear is large enough for the Surge to have fallen through, and the tear does not look intentional at all. The tear was taped up poorly. I can't see any way that a person could deliberately tear an envelope in that manner. It was shipped USPS Priority w/Delivery Confirmation, no insurance. I contacted him immediately when I received it, and he assured me that the Surge had been in the envelope when he shipped it. I believe he is telling the truth.

So it looks like the envelope was torn accidentally by USPS and that's how the Surge fell out. I have opened up an investigation with USPS, got a case#. That didn't go anywhere so I opened up a Mail Recovery Search with them, so if they find it they can send it to me, but it's likely that they won't find it.

Having never had a problem like this before, I started a thread on BFC looking for suggestions on what to do from there: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6884527 Everyone seems to agree that the sender is responsible to ensure that the items promised do, in fact, arrive at their intended destination. I made Leatherman123 aware of the thread, and asked him how we can get this deal settled. I feel like I've done everything I can to try to get this resolved, and he seems to have stopped responding to my emails entirely. While I was hoping to get this settled privately, it's looking now like that is just not going to happen.

Send me your address and I'll send you a replacement Surge. Problem solved....   

[Flash]

Wow...well done GG

BTW did I mention that the post office lost my Spyderco Urban in green 

[Gadget Guy]

Wow...well done GG

BTW did I mention that the post office lost my Spyderco Urban in green 

 

[nuphoria]

The PO lost my marbles too, anyone got some spare for me? 

Nice one GG 

[zepla]

  GG!

[Gareth]

I suppose this highlights two issues we all need to think about.  One is that it is far safer to send things with sufficient insurance coverage.  The other is to make sure that anything sent is very securely packaged.  The two together should stop any future disappointments.

[eodtech]

USPS Insurance costs have increased for domestic mailings this past month ...

Domestic ( USA ) fees
$0.01 to $50     $1.75
$50.01 to $100    $2.25

Priority Mail International Insurance Prices
$50.00      Canada $1.75     ALL  other countries $2.50
$100.00     Canada $2.25    ALL other countries  $3.40

Quite a steep  price to pay for the odds of something getting lost.

Self insurance is a better deal depending on the amount of mailings you make.

[Zack]

GG to the rescue...Maybe this can be solved sufficiently to the original poster.  Stick around we really are a great bunch of people.

[Nikos]

Andrew, I think it all depends on the cost of the items and the s/h cost. USPS PMI is $13 for small packages and $42 for larger/heavier ones to my part of the world. In either case, a $3.40 surcharge would seem quite reasonable, given the cost of the item plus shipping would be well over $100 and you'll get some peace of mind after all...

[eodtech]

When you ship items  domestic  via Priority Mail pay for the postage on line and get a discount along with delivery confirmation and FREE boxes at the Post Office.
Don't use an envelope when a box is the came charge and FREE as well as a more secure package. That's a no brainer ..

[max6166]

Well done, GG! 

Perhaps it would be worthwhile to create a sticky of best practices for trading, including best shipping methods, packaging, procedures, and policies for when things like this happen?

Incidentally, I don't think Nikko is responsible in this case either. In my experience, requesting insurance, tracking, etc. is the responsibility of the recipient. If you agree to shipping without them, it is also on your head if they go missing.

The seller may offer something out of kindness, but it shouldn't be expected. It's just my personal opinion though, though I speak as someone who has been on both sides of this situation a few times.

I am sorry for what happened Zack. I would be ticked off too (and have been).

Different communities may develop different expectations though. Which is why I think it might be a good idea to create some rough guidelines.

[cliosguy]

Send me your address and I'll send you a replacement Surge. Problem solved....   

very fine of you mate

[eodtech]

Andrew, I think it all depends on the cost of the items and the s/h cost. USPS PMI is $13 for small packages and $42 for larger/heavier ones to my part of the world. In either case, a $3.40 surcharge would seem quite reasonable, given the cost of the item plus shipping would be well over $100 and you'll get some peace of mind after all...

I agree BUT the cost of insurance USUALLY does not cover the amount of the item and the chart is quite misleading. If I send a MT overseas and I buy insurance for $100 under International agreement the loss coverage may only pay  $39 ( more or less ) for a lost parcel depending on the country and the agreements they have signed with the dispatching country. Each country's pay off on an insurance claim differs dramatically  as a matter of fact some countries will only insure a parcel for Registered  and Insured mail, with the Registered fee being over US$10  PLUS the cost of insurance.

[cliosguy]

Well done, GG! 

Perhaps it would be worthwhile to create a sticky of best practices for trading, including best shipping methods, packaging, procedures, and policies for when things like this happen?

Incidentally, I don't think Nikko is responsible in this case either. In my experience, requesting insurance, tracking, etc. is the responsibility of the recipient. If you agree to shipping without them, it is also on your head if they go missing.

The seller may offer something out of kindness, but it shouldn't be expected. It's just my personal opinion though, though I speak as someone who has been on both sides of this situation a few times.

I am sorry for what happened Zack. I would be ticked off too (and have been).

Different communities may develop different expectations though. Which is why I think it might be a good idea to create some rough guidelines.

+1

[Nikos]

Andrew, I think it all depends on the cost of the items and the s/h cost. USPS PMI is $13 for small packages and $42 for larger/heavier ones to my part of the world. In either case, a $3.40 surcharge would seem quite reasonable, given the cost of the item plus shipping would be well over $100 and you'll get some peace of mind after all...

I agree BUT the cost of insurance USUALLY does not cover the amount of the item and the chart is quite misleading. If I send a MT overseas and I buy insurance for $100 under International agreement the loss coverage may only pay  $39 ( more or less ) for a lost parcel depending on the country and the agreements they have signed with the dispatching country. Each country's pay off on an insurance claim differs dramatically  as a matter of fact some countries will only insure a parcel for Registered  and Insured mail, with the Registered fee being over US$10  PLUS the cost of insurance.

I see. Didn't know about that.

Perhaps it would be worthwhile to create a sticky of best practices for trading, including best shipping methods, packaging, procedures, and policies for when things like this happen?

+1

+2

[Zack]

I am sorry for what happened Zack. I would be ticked off too (and have been).

Different communities may develop different expectations though. Which is why I think it might be a good idea to create some rough guidelines.

Nothing happened to me.

[max6166]

I am sorry for what happened Zack. I would be ticked off too (and have been).

Different communities may develop different expectations though. Which is why I think it might be a good idea to create some rough guidelines.

Nothing happened to me.

You mean nothing has happened to you yet.... 

Sorry about that Zack - I meant MedusaOblongata. 
 

[Neil]

Speaking for myself I believe its the duty of the sender to ensure the item gets to the recipient and if it doesn't it is the sender who should compensate.  I can see the argument for the reverse,  but how can a recipient ensure a package is secured appropriately?  Now if the sender offers to send with or without insurance and the recipient declines the additional charge for insured delivery then all bets are off.

In the UK packages are covered up to a value of £39 without the need to purchase additional compensation.  Additional insurance is very expensive.  For instance a 200g package to a European destination costs £1.82 to send.  If I need to insure it for say £60 the price jumps to £7.72 

[cgk]

I vote eodtech come up with the shipping thread, sorry to volunteer you for work but you do know what your talking about.

[Leatherman123]

John I have no words to express my gratitude. Thank you very much! You are one hell of a guy!  

First of all, we both agreed on shipping via Priority with DC. WE SAID NOTHING ABOUT INSURANCE. I don't understand why it's my problem that the items didn't reach you. That's how I feel about this situation. But, thanks to John's generosity, this problem has been resolved..

After I send it, my package is in USPS' hands, not mine.. I have no control of it after it's sent..

But again, thank you SO much John. You have no idea!    

I really hope you guys can trust me, as MedusaOblongata made me sound like trash.

[Medic82]

John I have no words to express my gratitude. Thank you very much! You are one hell of a guy! 

First of all, we both agreed on shipping via Priority with DC. WE SAID NOTHING ABOUT INSURANCE. I don't understand why it's my problem that the items didn't reach you. That's how I feel about this situation. But, thanks to John's generosity, this problem has been resolved..

After I send it, my package is in USPS' hands, not mine.. I have no control of it after it's sent..

But again, thank you SO much John. You have no idea!   

I really hope you guys can trust me, as MedusaOblongata made me sound like trash.

I agree with you dude. But the most important thing is that we all can learn from this, I know that I have.

And GG…………Great thing that you are doing.

[DaveK]

I agree with Neil on this, in that the sender carries the responsibility for the item arriving, in good condition. No offence intended to you Nikko, but this is a problem that will ocurr frequently and there are many precedents.

For example, a much used phrase by ebay sellers goes "insurance is there to protect the seller, not the buyer". Many ebay sellers will list that if you decline insurance then they have no responsibility for items that are lost or damaged, but in truth, what they say is irrelevant. Paypal will ALWAYS refund to the buyer unless the seller can prove delivery - this never varies. I have first hand experience of this, more than once!

I also had a situation recently when sending out the Sideclips where one took a lot longer than the others to arrive. I was in no doubt that I was obliged to refund the cost if the tool didn't turn up. Ultimately, I elected not to use an insured service, so I was taking a risk, but it's quite clear it was my risk. As it happens the tool rolled up in it's own time and everyone was happy, but the liability was mine.

Just to make it clear that I'm not attacking you Nikko - and I often take the gamble myself, but I personally think that it's your loss, not MedusaOblongata's.

Gadget Guy - your generosity never ceases to amaze me - well done to you.

I really hope you guys can trust me, as MedusaOblongata made me sound like trash.

I don't think so mate - I thought it was put quite reasonably. I still love ya