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A Better Wave ? 856

Global Moderator Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here... Posts: 48,006
A Better Wave ?
« on: December 20, 2019, 08:46:24 PM »
Absolute Zombie Club Posts: 24,490
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2019, 12:53:34 AM »
 :popcorn:
No Life Club Posts: 1,718
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2019, 02:04:01 AM »
this is going to be good
Hero Member Posts: 872
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2019, 02:50:09 AM »
Makes a damn awesome pocket knife because the internal tools can go on both sides (plier side and blade side). In general though it's quite good. The saw was almost just as good....the scissor actually cuts better than the wave, and with a cheap addition of a magnet, has a full hex bit holder.

Cheers
Global Moderator Just Bananas Posts: 60,871
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2019, 05:04:46 PM »
Might pick one of these up to turn into a knife similar to my Charge knife  :think: :cheers: :like:
Just Bananas Posts: 73,663
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2019, 06:12:36 PM »
Nice looking MT  :like: :tu:

fail to prepare prepare to fail
Hero Member Posts: 736
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2019, 06:22:57 PM »
Ive always had the opinion the Surge was a better Wave  :whistle:
Thread Killer 2019 No Life Club Posts: 3,811
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2019, 08:44:37 PM »
I am interested but I think it's overpriced. Some day I'll find one in the clearance aisle or I'll find a used one on E-bay and I'll pick it up.
No Life Club Posts: 4,884
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2019, 08:55:33 PM »
  The tools are quite hard to get out. I was not impressed.
No Life Club Posts: 1,315
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2019, 04:12:56 AM »
I just snagged a multiforce. I like it very very much! It needed adjustment when I first got it - one of the plier pivots was too tight and so was the main blade pivot. But since it uses standard torx screws this took all of 45 seconds. Most of which was because I didn’t have a second person to hold it Steady for me.

The pliers are in every way better than my wingman. Zero side to side play, the cutters cut even #000 steel wool strands, and can *almost* cleanly cut paracord.  I bought it for the bit driver and I’m super happy with the quality.

I don’t have a wave so I can’t say how it stacks up there, but this is a $38 tool, and it makes my wingman look like $60 worth of hot garbage.

Charles.
No Life Club Posts: 4,820
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2019, 04:26:36 AM »
  The tools are quite hard to get out. I was not impressed.

Had the same issue when I handled it at a store. Others don’t seem to have troubles with that. Might be a QC issue  :think:
No Life Club Posts: 1,810 Duck!
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2019, 04:43:29 AM »
it makes my wingman look like $60 worth of hot garbage.

Is that what a Wingman costs these days? Can't say I'd ever pay that for the entry level tools.
Hero Member Posts: 736
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2019, 06:31:26 AM »
Is that what a Wingman costs these days? Can't say I'd ever pay that for the entry level tools.
$60 for wingman or sidekick.
I like my Sidekick but Ive gotten used to non springloaded pliers that they seem unnecessary. Otherwise, its same tools (with a slight variation) as my Rev.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,188
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2019, 09:51:19 AM »
Steve, great find!  42min is slightly long to watch in one go(I'm at 15min right now), but I love this review, seems quite well organized and recorded.  :tu:


And already I am interested to pick a copy up to quench my curiosity!

Is that what a Wingman costs these days? Can't say I'd ever pay that for the entry level tools.
That's really is a bit much for an entry level tool, especially when considering how SOG and Gerber(or even SAK) price their products around that range.

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No Life Club Posts: 1,725
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2019, 02:28:47 PM »
Granted, this is a very high quality for what amounts to a Chinese-made knock-off. Granted, there are some minor but very good innovations built off of Leathermans design. And granted, the price is low.

If I had no Leatherman tools, and if i really needed one, I might pick this up. Except for the fact that, while not trying to be a "nationalist", there is still nothing wrong with supporting the manufacturing sector within ones own country so that it doesnt disappear. So I choose the US made Leatherman tools (and Craftsman, and Stanley, etc), even preferring a used ones over new Chinese made items, wherever possible.

It's just that, every time I see "Made In China" or the sneaky "Product of PRC", i know that at least a couple hundred jobs have been lost here.

So for me, it looks very good quality and some improvements on a tried and true design, but unless I wake up tomorrow somehow missing all my dozen Leatherman tools to choose from, it will be a pass for me. Not for carry nor mod fodder.
No Life Club Posts: 4,884
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2019, 03:12:02 PM »
  And the warranty, details on what happens if it breaks a year or three down the road. Where do people send it in for repair, as most won't even have the sales receipt by then. Shipping at no charge on the return? Guessing a 1 year warranty, whereas Leatherman is 25 years.

  If a tool become obsolete Leatherman usually upgrades to the next best tool, or offer a card to be used on future purchases.

  Guy (that's his name) at Walmart carries one for maintenance. His superiors frowned down on him carrying it. Then he showed them just how difficult it was to get a tool implement out. So in that respect he can carry a multitool whereas he could not otherwise, cause the tools are next to impossible to get out, and he has to dig in to get to them.

  Leatherman made it where getting the tools out was easy. The Chinese fake tool make it harder to get the tools out - guess that is their niche. Carry a nail in the sheath to get the tools out, as you won't have fingernails for long.

  Good thing the Ozark stuff was not riveted. :rofl:  And, how good/bad is the Can Opener?
No Life Club Posts: 1,315
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2019, 04:08:34 PM »
I opened a can of beans with it last night. It was as good as any Wenger style can opener can be. Opened quickly with no drama :)

If the tools are hard to get out, spend a few seconds with some torx bits and fix it.

Charles.
No Life Club Posts: 1,315
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2019, 05:19:52 PM »
Granted, this is a very high quality for what amounts to a Chinese-made knock-off. Granted, there are some minor but very good innovations built off of Leathermans design. And granted, the price is low.

If I had no Leatherman tools, and if i really needed one, I might pick this up. Except for the fact that, while not trying to be a "nationalist", there is still nothing wrong with supporting the manufacturing sector within ones own country so that it doesnt disappear. So I choose the US made Leatherman tools (and Craftsman, and Stanley, etc), even preferring a used ones over new Chinese made items, wherever possible.

It's just that, every time I see "Made In China" or the sneaky "Product of PRC", i know that at least a couple hundred jobs have been lost here.

So for me, it looks very good quality and some improvements on a tried and true design, but unless I wake up tomorrow somehow missing all my dozen Leatherman tools to choose from, it will be a pass for me. Not for carry nor mod fodder.

I see it as competition. The Chinese are attempting to fill a hole in the US market that leatherman is not filling - a quality tool in the $40 range.  If it catches on and becomes popular, Leatherman will be forced to do something about it. And bring out their own tool in the $40 price range, that doesn’t have wonky players and terrible cutters.

Something similar is happening in the motorcycle market right now. The current market is full of large, expensive, heavy motorcycles. Especially the adventure bike market. The Chinese are bringing over a lot of small, inexpensive, interesting bikes and are poised to make great inroads into the us market because of this. CSC is importing the RX3 and RX4, plus a small dual sport and cafe racer. The Italian Benelli manufacturer is now Italio-Chinese. The bikes are designed in house and there are still some bikes manufacturered in Italy, but most bikes are built in China now. And it’s done WONDERS for their reliability. Now they’re pretty to look at and also aren’t constantly broken. SSR has a bunch of pit bikes, dirt bikes plus a dual sport and a cafe racer.

The Indians are also stepping up their game with the new royal Enfield twins and the Himalayan adventure bike.

The motorcycle market today mirrors that of the 60s, when the Japanese first started importing quality bikes into this country. The major manufacturers are complacent and stagnant, just like back then, and the prices do not reflect what people can actually afford in this terrible economy.
 
Now the Chinese are bringing a bunch of affordable, interesting, fun machines over and they’re slowly gaining market here. They fill huge gaps in the current market for medium displacement motorcycles. Take the price out of the equation entirely, and they still have a product I want, which I can’t get elsewhere. The fact there also majorly undercutting the competition is only icing on the cake.

And the Japanese are listening... sort of. They’re bringing out smaller bikes again... but the pricing is still too high.

Charles.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2019, 05:26:04 PM by ChopperCharles »
No Life Club Posts: 4,820
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2019, 12:42:10 AM »
 :iagree: that competition can be really good for us costumers. It forces companies to get off their butts and experiment more, instead of just doing the same with only slight improvements.
No Life Club Posts: 1,315
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2019, 06:35:44 AM »
That's also why I like Gerber! They aren't afraid to try something new and different and weird. I mean, look at the Center Drive. they took a gamble and came out way ahead with that one. Other past tools, perhaps not so much, but they never stopped innovating. The Recoil, Evolution, Flick, etc.

Charles.
Absolutely No Life Club Posts: 7,188
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2019, 07:07:13 AM »
:iagree: that competition can be really good for us costumers. It forces companies to get off their butts and experiment more, instead of just doing the same with only slight improvements.
:iagree:  I have seen LM pricing creeping up over the years, and I was surprised to find even the entry level tools now would cost 60usd(maybe the standard of living has risen, but I don't recall inflation has risen that high).  So some healthy competition is probably a good remedy to that.


That's also why I like Gerber! They aren't afraid to try something new and different and weird. I mean, look at the Center Drive. they took a gamble and came out way ahead with that one. Other past tools, perhaps not so much, but they never stopped innovating. The Recoil, Evolution, Flick, etc.

Charles.
I too do really appreciate companies being innovative, which is important to keep the whole industry moving forward. :tu:

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No Life Club Posts: 4,884
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2019, 10:15:36 AM »
  Having a 25 year warranty, and people abusing it by doing stupid sh!t to get an new tool every so often I bet raises the prices. I seen some stuff so bad makes it wonder why there was no IQ test administered before before they were allowed to purchase a multitool. Still, having said 25 year warranty or Lifetime (Victorinox) one has to pay a more premium price.

  You have to admit there are people out there that do some stupid things with their multitools then whine about it in every Leatherman post that their tool broke and they have to pay more in shipping than the tool is worth. So for them, perhaps cheap Chinese carp is up their alley, till they learn - or not.

  Way I was raised is that if you respect and care for your tools they will last a lifetime. But then Generation M, X & Y came in and I swear most of them should not even have a license to wield a butter-knife let alone anything with an edge on it! Perhaps there is a niche. Sure beats having warranties being abuse by imbeciles.

  Was a guy on Twitter that broke his Surge v2.0 that broke it by throwing large rocks at it, and expected Leatherman to replace it free, no shipping charges. Well, I guess that's one way to break a Surge. I've beat mine up (v1.0) doing repairs and it's not broken a thing yet! Maybe those replaceable wire cutter created a weak spot that Generation M, Y & X think they need to break, :think:

  Me, I'd rather pay a premium price knowing I'd get superior product repair or replacement should the need ever arise. While the thought of breaking Surge 1.0 to get 2.0 crossed my ,ind a few times, I'd never throw boulders at it to get it replaced. IMHO that's abuse, not covered under warranty.
No Life Club Posts: 4,820
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2019, 03:02:51 PM »
It is certainly true that tools (or lots of other stuff for that matter) last a lifetime if you care for them. I just have the feeling that was even more true in former times, when stuff was built and designed to last that long.

A lot of things nowadays seem to be designed to break as soon as the warranty is over, so you buy a new one and spend money again (e.g. cheap plastic parts in metal items that have to break sooner or later, because the plastic gets brittle).

I agree that Gerber tries some new stuff and has some great ideas.  :tu: But when it comes down to implementing those ideas they seem to struggle. Shattering replaceable wire cutters anyone?  :facepalm: They could use a little bit more time in R&D and less in advertising  :D
No Life Club Posts: 1,725
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2019, 04:55:35 PM »
:iagree:  I have seen LM pricing creeping up over the years, and I was surprised to find even the entry level tools now would cost 60usd(maybe the standard of living has risen, but I don't recall inflation has risen that high).  So some healthy competition is probably a good remedy to that.



I'm all for healthy competition. I'm not opposed to purchasing items made in other countries.

This is not healthy competition. This is a company taking another company design (maybe true the copyrights have expired) and reinjecting a cheaper version of that tool back into the market. Maybe that falls under the cheap and cheerful category. That's ok.

It's not healthy competition because it is an older design, and Ozark will not likely provide the warranty that Leatherman does. Is it healthy competition when Kia copies a 14 year old Toyota design and sells it offering 1/25th toyotas original warranted? Maybe not, but it does get someone into the multitool game that might not have been otherwise.

I had a PST knockoff. That's what got me wanting an original PST. Now I have a dozen Leathermans and wouldnt consider a knockoff.

I know some of my statements seem contrary, but what can I say
No Life Club Posts: 1,315
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2019, 05:24:29 PM »
Well, I must say after my experience with the Wingman, I'm not sure I want leatherman. $60 for a tool with pliers that have 2-3mm deflection and wire cutters that just smash wire and no locking for the screwdrivers.... that's a ripoff in my book. I hope this tool, and others like them, make Leatherman go back to the drawing board for their tools. because even if the Wingman was $30, the Ozark Trail MultiForce is still the better tool and the better buy.

Charles.
Hero Member Posts: 963
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2019, 06:55:19 PM »
I will stick to leatherman as I worry cheap imports will force them to upsticks and move their production to China because it will be the only way they can compete price wise. If that happened it would be a travesty.

That is why I was very suprised when I saw a thread on this site by Grant of all people about purchasing the fake tread, basically supporting a company making counterfeit leatherman products.

My trouble is i never show initiative, but that's only because no one has told me to.
No Life Club Posts: 1,810 Duck!
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2019, 09:30:52 PM »
I will stick to leatherman as I worry cheap imports will force them to upsticks and move their production to China because it will be the only way they can compete price wise. If that happened it would be a travesty.

That is why I was very suprised when I saw a thread on this site by Grant of all people about purchasing the fake tread, basically supporting a company making counterfeit leatherman products.

If it sends the message to Leatherman that nobody wants to pay $175 for their hideous bracelet "tool" and they come to their senses, I won't mind.
Hero Member Posts: 963
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2019, 10:01:39 PM »
I just think if you unwittingly bought knock off thinking it was legit you would be annoyed, as you (as well as leatherman) have been robbed. If you knowingly buy knock off you are robbing leatherman.

This is slightly off topic (my bad) as the tool in question isn’t knock off (patent expired). And I don’t have a dog in the fight as I am not American or chinese. But I will continue to support leatherman for as long as they continue to make quality tools from quality steel hopefully in America.

I live in the uk that used to be known for manufacturing,and now we make not a lot. I think if America went the same way it would be a sorry state of affairs.


My trouble is i never show initiative, but that's only because no one has told me to.
Global Moderator Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here... Posts: 48,006
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2019, 10:44:10 PM »
So anyone have one that they can take apart and see if the pivots are compatible with a Leatherman ?
No Life Club Posts: 1,718
Re: A Better Wave ?
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2019, 02:19:40 AM »
  Having a 25 year warranty, and people abusing it by doing stupid sh!t to get an new tool every so often I bet raises the prices. I seen some stuff so bad makes it wonder why there was no IQ test administered before before they were allowed to purchase a multitool. Still, having said 25 year warranty or Lifetime (Victorinox) one has to pay a more premium price.

  You have to admit there are people out there that do some stupid things with their multitools then whine about it in every Leatherman post that their tool broke and they have to pay more in shipping than the tool is worth. So for them, perhaps cheap Chinese carp is up their alley, till they learn - or not.

  Way I was raised is that if you respect and care for your tools they will last a lifetime. But then Generation M, X & Y came in and I swear most of them should not even have a license to wield a butter-knife let alone anything with an edge on it! Perhaps there is a niche. Sure beats having warranties being abuse by imbeciles.

  Was a guy on Twitter that broke his Surge v2.0 that broke it by throwing large rocks at it, and expected Leatherman to replace it free, no shipping charges. Well, I guess that's one way to break a Surge. I've beat mine up (v1.0) doing repairs and it's not broken a thing yet! Maybe those replaceable wire cutter created a weak spot that Generation M, Y & X think they need to break, :think:

  Me, I'd rather pay a premium price knowing I'd get superior product repair or replacement should the need ever arise. While the thought of breaking Surge 1.0 to get 2.0 crossed my ,ind a few times, I'd never throw boulders at it to get it replaced. IMHO that's abuse, not covered under warranty.

You raise some good points.  Premium prices and products sometimes include better warranties, and it's up to us to use them responsibly.  Otherwise, these companies cant sustain quality, price and warranty all at the same time. 

Look what happened to the warranty at LL Bean, with people returning items they've used for 30 years for a full refund. 

There's a video somewhere on the interwebs where a Leatherman engineer explains that they've made modifications to the took given that they frequently have had to replace the screwdriver after people use it as a prybar.  I seem to remember this has altered the construction and the placement of the tool... and explains why it's a bit too thick for some large screws. 

These knockoffs of all sorts are part of a bigger picture -  prices will rise, warrantees will become limited, and cheap knockoffs will be made and used, as long as we indirectly raise the overhead of the companies we consume from.   If we try to game the system, it will either game us, or fall apart.

 

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